Woman's Hour - What's so funny about socially aspiring women?

Episode Date: May 30, 2019

The third and final series of Mum is currently airing on BBC2 and Pauline is proving to be as terrifyingly class-conscious as ever. Why do so many British sitcoms and novels centre around women who a...re obsessed with status? From Margot in The Good Life to Hyacinth Bucket, from Mrs Bennett to Becky Sharp - why are so many of our iconic female characters shameless social climbers? Jenni talks to television critic Julia Raeside and journalist and critic Alex Clark.Jenni speaks to Jo Miller as she steps down from one of the most high-profile local government jobs in the UK. Jo was appointed Chief Executive of Doncaster Council by central Government in 2012, when the Council was officially a “failing” local authority. Jo’s turnaround strategy has brought in investment of £2 billion and the town is now in the UK’s top ten for growth. How did she achieve this and why is she leaving?A report by Lancaster University and Fatherhood Institute earlier this year states that the number of men working in early years childcare is just 2%, a figure which has not changed for decades. What can be done to attract more men into the career? And, for those working in the sector already, what is the reaction from parents to having a man working with young children?Nearly 2,000 domestic abuse survivors iare being put at risk of homelessness because local authority rules state they aren’t vulnerable enough, according to a new report published by the All Party Parliamentary Group for Ending Homelessness. The research and funding was carried out by Crisis, the national charity for homeless people. Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Laura Northedge Interviewed Guest: Alex Clark Interviewed Guest: Julia Raeside Interviewed Guest: Jo Miller Interviewed Guest: Rebecca Pritchard

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:42 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday 30th May. If you're watching Mum on BBC Two, the awful Pauline will be driving you mad. Why are so many women in sitcoms and stories, Margot, Hyacinth Bouquet, Mrs Bennett or Becky Sharp, such relentless social climbers. As more and more families look for childcare, why are so few men prepared to train for the job of looking after little children?
Starting point is 00:01:15 And as Jo Miller prepares to leave her job as Chief Executive of Doncaster Council, how did she and her mayor, Ros Jones, manage to turn around a failing council despite ever-increasing austerity? Now, you sort of expect that if you were the victim of domestic violence and managed to escape the home you shared with your abuser, you might be considered a priority for housing. A report by the all-party Parliamentary Group for Ending Homelessness shows that nearly 2,000 survivors of domestic abuse in any one year are put at risk of homelessness in England because they're not considered a priority. Well, earlier this morning I spoke to Danielle,
Starting point is 00:01:57 who became homeless in 2014 when she had to flee a privately rented property she shared with her then partner. She described their relationship. We met when we were pretty young I think about 13, 14 and it was really nice at first and then all of a sudden about a year into it I noticed him around his family he got really angry and like really aggressive and then when I started to say you know don't don't shout at your mum don't do this then he started to turn on me, and then he'd start to shout and scream and, like, punch walls and stuff.
Starting point is 00:02:28 And then it just escalated from there. Then it quickly went to physical violence. He never liked, like, who I was hanging out with and things like that. He never liked me going out with a lot of different people. So we really just had, like, a really small group of close friends that he knew really well and he was happy with. At one point, he was arrested why he was arrested because we'd had an argument he'd gone out with work and i i wasn't aware and he'd kissed
Starting point is 00:02:53 someone else and then i found out and he just got annoyed that i was annoyed and he said he could do what he wanted it's prerogative and i was too controlling but he couldn't see why i didn't like him going out with other girls and then he got like physically violent and uh then we started arguing i ran into the bathroom because i just knew how it was going to work and then he punched my bedroom door and then he and just started punching me so i like tried to run downstairs but as i went to run downstairs he pushed me down them and i guess the neighbors were quite used to hearing it. Neighbours called the police. So what happened when you had then left where you were living,
Starting point is 00:03:31 which was a shared rented accommodation? What happened to the tenancy? The tenancy, that was probably the most, I know it sounds stupid, but one of the most traumatic things. Because I just stupidly and naively assumed I would just be able to leave that tenancy agreement because obviously you try to, you know, it was domestic abuse, you tried to take my life.
Starting point is 00:03:50 I thought, you know what, I'm just going to leave the tenancy. So I had a support worker at the time, thanks to the crisis team. The crisis team tried to help me get accommodation elsewhere. They unfortunately weren't successful. They offered me a refuge, but it was a couple of, it was about 40 miles away. But I was actually doing a degree at the time and I had full-time job and the council actually told me I'd have to give all that up just not something I wanted to give up I'd have to give up like this relationship with a man I was massively in love with and the house
Starting point is 00:04:18 that we we were going to like stay in for a long time and build a family and I didn't want to have to give up my degree as well. So what did the council say? Why did they say you were not a priority for them? They said I wasn't a priority because I wasn't vulnerable and I had to be vulnerable by being pregnant or by getting pregnant. And the woman just kept saying, if you got pregnant or were pregnant, we could have helped you. So what happened as a result? I couldn't get out of the tenancy agreement,
Starting point is 00:04:46 so I had to go back to him, ask him to help me out and get me off the tenancy, and he said, yeah, he'd get me off the tenancy, so I had to spend quite a lot of time with him, ringing up different places, trying to get my name off, because it wasn't as easy, and it was a bit of a weird time, obviously, being with him after that, because he was going through the proceedings of being arrested, getting charged and then I had to ask him for help and he did help he
Starting point is 00:05:09 got my name off the tenancy agreement but not off the bills after we got my name off the tenancy agreement I then ended up having to just sleep in different places with different people just make sure I had somewhere to like stay at night to make sure I could at least complete uni but end up where I was just lying to my friends just saying oh yeah can I just stay here for a little bit so I'd end up just sofa surfing for a long time because I just I was too embarrassed to tell people what had happened because they were all very angry that I'd moved in with them anyway I ended up having to sofa surf for a very long time until I eventually got eventually had to move away completely and give up my degree in the end. So what impact has it all had on you?
Starting point is 00:05:45 Massive. At the time I was just very naive that it wouldn't impact me at all. I was totally fine but I was left with complex PTSD. It's weird that it's still impacting me now. It was 2014 when it all ended but it's every single day now that's a problem. If there's any loud noises, if there's someone raises a voice at me or even if someone stares at me like in the street I'll just assume that it's something negative and I'm just always in like fight or flight mode and you can imagine that as having like a detrimental effect on the relationships and even my employment and my education luckily I ended up with two amazing degrees so I ended up and ended up married so I really pulled myself out of it but it was a lot of work
Starting point is 00:06:26 I was talking to Danielle now the research for the all party parliamentary group's report was funded and carried out by Crisis the national charity for homeless people their director of services is Rebecca Pritchard Rebecca how common is an experience like Danielle's?
Starting point is 00:06:42 It's all too common it's really, listening to Danielle, it's actually quite upsetting. But one in five of the women that use our services have actually said that domestic violence, domestic abuse is the main reason that they became homeless in the first place. And we know from earlier surveys that 61% of women who are homeless have actually experienced domestic abuse. So it's prevalent out there.
Starting point is 00:07:08 But why is a victim, a survivor of domestic violence, often not considered a priority for rehousing? I think because the legislation which was originally drafted back in the 1970s have got very specific categories of people and groups of people that they deem to be in priority need. And as you heard, pregnant women, people with children are one of those priority needs. They will consider if you are vulnerable, if there are issues such as domestic violence in your past, but you then have to go through a really complex process of proving that you're more vulnerable than the average person who might become homeless
Starting point is 00:07:51 because of your domestic abuse. So the domestic abuse, the violence might be accepted, but you've then got to go through cartwheels sometimes and at a time when people are hugely traumatised and people have very complex life histories. And it's very, very difficult to create that threshold that will give you what they call priority need. And that's why we're actually really keen that there's the opportunity at the moment
Starting point is 00:08:17 with the Domestic Abuse Bill to actually amend the current housing legislation so that all people, all survivors of domestic abuse who are homeless because of it, are given that priority need status. You see, the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government told us that councils will be required to provide secure accommodation for survivors of domestic violence and their children. And the Community Secretary has pledged £90 million for it. What do you make of that promise?
Starting point is 00:08:46 I mean, it's a step in the right direction, but the actual pledge is for local authorities to look and see what sort of emergency temporary accommodation that they need to make provision for in their areas for women and men fleeing domestic violence and facing homelessness. And that £90 million is not going to go very far. And especially as since 2010, one in six refuges have actually been closed because of austerity and because of cuts.
Starting point is 00:09:17 So it's absolutely welcome. It's great news. But it would also, it doesn't go far enough. Even if people can get into refuges or safe, secure, temporary accommodation when the fleeing violence, unless they've got an entitlement to long term affordable housing, then where do they go from there? We end up with refuges and specialist accommodation basically being silted up because people are there with nowhere else to go and that means that that quite specialist provision isn't available for people in in the emerging crises all the time what actual evidence have you got that people are consistently being turned away by local councils well the research that we um undertook for the All-Party Parliamentary
Starting point is 00:10:07 Group on Ending Homelessness actually found that around about 12% of people who present as homeless across England are basically homeless because of domestic abuse and domestic violence but only two percent of those people are given the full housing duty and the research has actually found it's about 2 000 just under 2 000 people a year or households a year but most of these people are single because if they had children they would be in priority need who are turned away and who don't have the full housing duty and for whom very little is available. But that's not a lot across the whole of England. We know that local authorities are extremely short of cash.
Starting point is 00:10:53 The Local Government Association again told us councillors are struggling to cope with rising homelessness. So who, in your view, should be a priority when there is no money? I think certainly women and men who are fleeing violence need to be accepted as priority need for a long-term stable secure affordable housing duty. Danielle spoke so eloquently about how you know how difficult she found rebuilding her life and recovering because of not having anywhere to stay, to be relying on friends and family. And some of the people that we work with, they don't have even friends and family that they can stay with.
Starting point is 00:11:34 So they're left facing being either going back to perpetrators or living on the streets sometimes and being at even greater risk of violence. We know that one or two women every week are at risk of being murdered by their partners through domestic violence. So expecting people to go back to that or not being able to provide accommodation for them
Starting point is 00:11:58 so they can escape those sorts of risks is, I think, an investment that's worth making. You mentioned the domestic abuse bill which it should provide for assistance with accommodation how satisfied are you with what is there at the moment that that kind of thing will be put in place? I think once there's a statutory duty once there's a legal requirement for local authorities to provide the money is often found. I think one of the issues that we often see is that where groups are not owed any kind of statutory legislative duty, then it's very easy not to provide for those clients.
Starting point is 00:12:37 And that's one of the reasons that one in six refuges have closed in the last nine years. Rebecca Pritchard, thank you very much indeed for being with us. And if you've had experience of what we've been discussing, we would really like to hear from you. Do send us an email or, of course, you can send us a tweet. And Rebecca, thanks. Now, a report by Lancaster University and the Fatherhood Institute earlier this year
Starting point is 00:13:00 said the number of men working in early years childcare is as low as 2%, a figure which has not changed for decades. But more families are looking for childcare so a number of fast-track schemes have been launched in a bid to encourage more men into the sector.
Starting point is 00:13:18 What can be done to attract more men into childcare and why aren't they there already? Well, Jack Fillimore went to two places in Edinburgh to find out. I'm Roxanne here. I've been managing the nursery for over five years. I have a team between 20 to 25. Currently, I have three men
Starting point is 00:13:41 and that's probably the most I have had at one time when men do come in here quite often they are a little bit unusual in their thinking so they've maybe already had strong male influence in their life that like maybe their dad took a lot of care of them already and they're quite aware that it's okay to be a man and be in a position where you're caring or they're maybe really interested in teaching and they come from a teaching background from maybe Spain or other countries and they already have this idea that what they do, the teaching part of the early learning, is really important.
Starting point is 00:14:17 My name is Guillermo. I'm from Spain. I'm working in this nursery for two years and a half. In Spain, yeah, I study a degree, physical education teacher for secondary. I discovered that I really like to work with children of this age. They don't know how to lie, so they always say the truth. So when they say something to you, it's true. When you show them how to do something, and you can see the next day that they are doing by themselves, I really love my job.
Starting point is 00:14:47 We quite often advertise for somebody qualified with some experience. Quite often we end up taking people who don't have a qualification because childcare is difficult to recruit for. So when I have the candidates, it's very rare amongst them I actually have men. When I do have a male candidate who comes for an interview, I quite often do think, oh, it'd be nice if they were good, but I don't do any kind of positive discrimination thinking, oh, I'd really like a man. I'm Ian. I've been working supporting children's play in Edinburgh for about 10 years. You need a huge amount of training to work with young people nowadays. Because I do my training part-time, I have been training for seven of the
Starting point is 00:15:32 10 years that I've been working. I have a very lively mind and I need to be very active and there are very few jobs that require as much flexibility and a multiplicity of skills as this. I started off volunteering in an after-school club in Leith. I was eventually made manager of a branch of the same organisation's after-school club in a different primary school in Dalry and then I have come and become the manager of an early learning and childcare setting. I am worried that if we recruit more men, they will straightaway go up to the top and start taking managerial roles, like in primary schools where there's quite a lot of headteacher positions run by men, although the amount of male staff to female staff is very low,
Starting point is 00:16:21 but yet the headteacher is men. So I am worried that if we make a positive discrimination against men in childcare, we should still be aware that it doesn't become an industry just run by men at the top. Well, I'm Louise and I work at Holy Corner Community Playgroup and I'm an early years practitioner there. What do you think having more of an equal balance between men and women would do for the early years?
Starting point is 00:16:44 I think it would be a fantastic thing to have more balance because you know we're looking after children who are both genders and naturally the staff should be a mix of both as well. I'm just wondering if maybe they don't feel very welcome in the profession sometimes whether that's because it's female dominated or people are unsure about their presence I'm not sure but secondly I because it's female-dominated or people are unsure about their presence, I'm not sure. But secondly, I think it's the reward and benefits aspect of the sector. Generally across the sector, even in leadership roles and settings on the front line, the pay is really poor. The Scottish Government want to expand the sector
Starting point is 00:17:19 and they want people to be increasingly pedagogically informed in their practice as well, but the rewards aren't there for people to operate increasingly pedagogically informed in their practice as well but the rewards aren't there for people to operate at a higher level. I've compared what we pay our staff to people working in a supermarket and sometimes supermarkets pay more than we pay. A lot of my female staff the partner in their household is the main breadwinner so their job is almost seen as kind of the secondary job so it's okay for them to earn less whereas I think if men do start coming in maybe the government has to take more notice about the pay. In the advert for early years recruitment there's actually a guy
Starting point is 00:17:56 who says I get to play and have fun with the children and it's a job and I get paid for it. That's the first time in a long time where there's been an ad for recruitment where there's been a male worker who's sort of promoted. Again, there's no mention of kind of pay and rights, but the fun idea I thought might attract some more male staff, yeah. How do we open up childcare to a wider section of the community, some of whom will be men? Because the other thing that happens when you look around a room
Starting point is 00:18:26 of people who work with young people especially in early years is that they're very white and they're very middle class not all of them it's diversity in general that we could do something about it's often when you're working in this sector
Starting point is 00:18:42 that you are the only man in the room but it makes less difference than you might think because in settings where everybody is the same sex people change their gender roles so you don't notice because you're not necessarily the most manly person in the room because there is an experienced woman and she's the one that people look to
Starting point is 00:19:06 for traditionally male roles. So you don't necessarily get put into that gendered position. It's quite freeing that way. They're here, the children, eight till six every day. So we do create a home to home environment and it does require a lot of affection, kindness. And I find that the male staff I have don't have a problem with this because we encourage it. Do you ever feel aware that you're managing the parents' reception of having a male worker in the early years setting? I have never had parents make a comment about it,
Starting point is 00:19:40 apart from positive comments about, oh, it's nice to have a man in the environment. But a year and a half ago, I employed my first male in the baby room. He was maybe in his early 20s, very masculine looking. He loved the baby room and he loved the babies. And he was with a member of staff there who was very supportive of him. But parents, when they met him, and also prospective parents who were coming in to see, kind of said, oh, you've got a man working in there. And in a slightly kind of worried tone, which I'd never heard about any of my other male staff before.
Starting point is 00:20:15 And I thought, oh dear, it's because their kids are so young and he looks a certain way. They can't imagine him being as caring and as kind of kind. But actually, he was one of the most caring kind of staff members we have ever had and watching him with the babies was amazing once they got to see how their babies reacted to him they really went for him and loved him my name is carol i have been at holy corner community play group for years. There's some children that are very much drawn to Ian. There's something that he is providing. When they very first start,
Starting point is 00:20:50 there's something reassuring about his presence, I think, especially some of our very smaller children. Maybe his physicality is a reassurance. We find that they will be his shadow, like they will just follow him around and yeah, he'll scoop them up. And I think it's really important that children see male in more caring roles and that they're role models to these children. I had the feeling that at the beginning, most of the boys wanted to play with me all the
Starting point is 00:21:18 time. Probably they needed a man. But I think probably it would be better to have like a balance. I wanted to hear firsthand from a parent about their reaction to having a male early years practitioner Jules who sent her son to a community-run play group in Edinburgh. In terms of my first impressions I was unsure if I'm honest I didn't know what to expect and I guess I had more uncertainty around what he would be like with my son than I had with any of the women.
Starting point is 00:21:47 Was he going to be able to give Freddie cuddles when he hurt himself or when he was feeling distressed? And what energy was he going to bring? I think one of the things that helped put me at ease very quickly was finding out that he was a father. But I do question why I needed that reassurance from a man when I wouldn't have needed it from a woman. I don't think the children see gender.
Starting point is 00:22:09 I think they just see a person and a person that they want to have fun with and play with and learn from and go to for comfort. I think expectations and stereotypes, they come from the parents and from society, so the children are not burdened with it at all which is a good thing Do you think there's anything that Freddie will have taken from that experience?
Starting point is 00:22:32 What I want Freddie to take away from it is nothing because I want it to be normal but it's not that's the part that's actually sad I would like him to grow up thinking that if he wants to be a male childcare practitioner that he is and that I'm not sitting here saying if he wants to be a male childcare practitioner, that he is. And that, you know, I'm not sitting here saying male or female.
Starting point is 00:22:48 You're just a childcare practitioner. And that report was by Jack Fillimore. Now, still to come in today's programme, Jo Miller stepping down from her job as Chief Executive of Doncaster Council. How did she and her mayor, Ros Jones, turn around a failing local government? And the serial episode nine of Goodwin. And Moneybox, apparently, would like to hear from you. When you start a new relationship, you have to remember it's a financial as well as a romantic partnership. What happens if one of you is a saver and one is a spender?
Starting point is 00:23:24 Or you're keen to invest but your partner's risk averse? Or you want an equal say in how your shared money is spent but you earn less than your partner? Well Radio 4 is opening a money clinic this summer to talk about money and love and how to make the two mix. If you'd like to find out more about how you can take part, email moneybox at bbc.co.uk Now, if you're a fan of Mum, the BBC sitcom, which is in its third and final series
Starting point is 00:23:54 on Wednesday nights, you'll be hoping Cathy and Michael manage to work out their relationship, despite the clear objections from the jealous son, Jason, and the constant irritations of the ghastly brother's girlfriend, Pauline. This time, they're all at a mansion Pauline and Trevor have rented for a week to celebrate Trevor's birthday.
Starting point is 00:24:14 On day one, Pauline took Kathy for a tour around the house, starting with the piano. Piano, obviously. Very nice. You can play the piano, can't you? It's pronounced piano. This is quite a good space if you want to read a broadsheet or check the FTSE 100 index.
Starting point is 00:24:35 Well, that's good to know. 65 inches, 4K surround sound, Wi-Fi, Sky Plus. And if you ask it nicely, it'll make you a latte. Oh. And if you're nice to the telecast, it'll make you a... I've done it. Right. Dorothy Atkinson and Leslie Manville, and, of course, I should have said piano, should I not?
Starting point is 00:24:58 Pauline epitomises the ghastly stock character that seems to pop up everywhere in sitcoms and even classic stories. She's the social climbing snobbish female on a par with Margot from The Good Life, Hyacinth Bouquet from Keeping Up Appearances and even Linda Snell from The Archers. And then there's Mrs Bennett, Becky Sharp and the mother of Bridget Jones. Why are such women so often the butt of the joke? Well, I'm joined from Ireland by the critic and journalist Alex Clark and by the broadcaster and television critic Julia Rayside, who's here in London. How, Julia, would you describe Pauline's character?
Starting point is 00:25:37 Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. She's a dogged pursuer of social status. And that's very much in the domestic world. The world of mum is I mean it's got a reputation for naturalism but it's very heightened naturalism so in that context she's a very I mean you could almost say quite a one-dimensional character she doesn't laugh at herself she's unable to see how she looks to other people and she just wants people to know how much money she's got and she openly says ask me how much I got in the divorce settlement she's a very unpleasant character there's not really a nice side to her. So how is the audience supposed to react to her? I mean, I
Starting point is 00:26:09 laugh at her, but she infuriates me as well. Oh yes, no, she is infuriating. There's a beautiful moment in, I think, the first episode of this new series where her partner comes out into the garden with a croissant in a bowl and she just says the word very firmly, plate. And it takes him a while to register. Then he goes inside realising he's using the wrong crockery. She's a monster. She in a bowl. And she just says the word very firmly, plate. And it takes him a while to register.
Starting point is 00:26:25 Then he goes inside realising he's using the wrong crockery. She's a monster. She is a monster. Alex, what do you make of her? Why do you think she's such a relentless social climber? Well, I think it's insecurity, as you often find with these characters, whether they crop up on TV or in literature. There's an insecurity, there's a desperation
Starting point is 00:26:44 to be doing absolutely the right thing with a kind of under note of the fear that you're not going to be doing the right thing. Because, I mean, I don't think I'm socially have enough status to say, but I don't suppose properly posh people do say piano, do they? I don't know. I'm say piano? I'm extremely posh and no, I say piano, definitely. It's piano, isn't it? And would you, if your partner brought the wrong plate out of the kitchen, look at him and say, plate? No, I think that would be a recipe for are not, in fact, really that powerful. And when we think of, you know, people like in literature, Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair, who's one of the kind of archetypal social climbers, a lot of the time they're kind of doing the stuff that they have to do to get by
Starting point is 00:27:45 because their range of options are so limited and i suppose that applies to mrs bennett as well that she has all these daughters who she has no alternative but to marry off she's got to marry them somehow she's got to do something with them and they've got to somehow be married um and of course that that speaks to something that we hope is long in the past but i think it's kind of the underpinning of quite a lot of of this sort of character i mean obviously we can go right back to lady macbeth and see that often it's kind of power by proxy and the husband's power that the woman wants julia who would you say are the other familiar social climbers in British sitcom who could be compared with Pauline?
Starting point is 00:28:29 Well, I think it's interesting because looking over sort of the current crop, there's a lot of brilliant comedy on at the moment. She doesn't crop up very often in contemporary comedy. She's definitely sort of a little bit of an anachronism now. I think in the history of sitcom, obviously there are dozens. You mentioned them at the start of the item, you know, Hyacinth Bouquet and
Starting point is 00:28:45 Sybil Fawlty and Dorian from Birds of a Feather. Women have a kind of a rough time, certainly historically in sitcom. They're always either the eye-rolling girlfriend in a 90s lad sitcom like Men Behaving Badly or They're the Mother-in-Law. There is misogyny in the history of comedy, definitely.
Starting point is 00:29:02 But I think Pauline is a throwback. She really is a throwback. Now women aren't portrayed quite like her anymore. And I think probably the writer, Stefan Golodziewski, is probably something that chimes with him from the sitcoms he grew up watching, because I think he's about my age, so early 40s.
Starting point is 00:29:18 It's clearly something from his memory, I think. To what extent is he a British phenomenon? I couldn't think of any examples from American sitcoms or European things. I know, I was head-scratching too. I think that the closest thing we've got perhaps in American sitcom is maybe Monica from
Starting point is 00:29:33 Friends, who aspires to have everything tidy, but it's not really the same thing. I think American culture is infused with this idea that if you aspire, it's a good thing. In this country, we don't like people who aspire to step out of their station in life. I think in America, it's positively encouraged. So it's less common over there than it is here.
Starting point is 00:29:52 Alex, to what extent would you say they appear in serious drama or in crime of which there is a great deal? Say a Mike Lee film or Midsommar Murders? Well, Midsommar Murders is if you see a woman arriving in any kind of convertible car, if it is red, if a leg slides out of the car in a high heel, absolute wrong-un, definitely. And always socially climbing to boot, you know, is always just looking for the advantage, is usually trying to marry the lord of the manor or deprive him of some form of inheritance. And there is that kind of idea of these sort of women trying to, you know, get their hands on something that isn't really theirs. Of course, there's a kind of flip side, which is a much more sort of, I suppose, pathetic kind of flip side, which is a much more sort of, I suppose, pathetic kind of context.
Starting point is 00:30:45 And it's the world of the sort of Beverly's, Abigail's party, Beverly and Abigail's party, you know, anxiously trying to display social status and a kind of glamour that her kind of surroundings aren't really providing her with sort of suitable enough companions to join her on this kind of fantasy journey you know you said that you thought the writer julia um had probably revived the stereotype because it was a familiar thing to him when he was watching sitcoms but she seems to me much pauline seems to be much worse than any of those earlier ones she is is, but like I say... Why is that, 21st century? Because Mum is a very particular show, and it's really interesting. It borrows a lot from old sitcom,
Starting point is 00:31:32 but I think the tone of it is so sort of particular. It doesn't really... If you look at, say, a character like Margot in The Good Life, Margot is, you know, sort of often monstrous and behaves in a very snobby, very unpleasant way, but she also has moments where there's nuance. She laughs at herself and other characters will kind of jib her and she'll kind of soften.
Starting point is 00:31:51 But Pauline doesn't. She is absolutely impenetrable. And I think it's the world that Stefan Golodyski's created. He's created all these characters. She's on the other end of the seesaw comedically from Leslie Manville's character, Cathy. She is literally the opposite to her and keeps that seesaw balanced. Cathy is just too, too nice, isn't she? She's far the other end of the seesaw comedically from Leslie Manville's character, Kathy. She is literally the opposite to her and keeps that seesaw balanced. Kathy is just too, too nice.
Starting point is 00:32:08 She's far too nice. She won't ever ask for anything for herself. And literally, Pauline's the opposite to that. But we haven't come to the end yet, Alex. And I wondered how much has Pauline advanced the stereotype? She at times just rarely does make you feel a little bit sorry for her and maybe we'll feel sorry for her towards the end what do you think well exactly there is always these and i'm thinking just you know of the fact that i think it's true to say that we have kind
Starting point is 00:32:35 of slightly shifted our idea of these stereotypes from some time in the past but she's got a certain kinship i suppose with fleabag's step-um, who we certainly see, I mean, social climbing in a different sort of context. She wants to be bohemian and artistic and all that sort of stuff. But we don't see any soft edges, do we? And I think that those are both such brilliant portrayals to which we're, as audiences, drawn, that there will have to be some kind of hinterland, otherwise we just won't like them anymore. And Alex, Julia mentioned the word misogyny earlier.
Starting point is 00:33:11 Is there misogyny in all these characters? Well, I think there's certainly a kind of fear in especially the idea of women hunting for status, hunting for acquisitions, hunting for the absolute right thing, that they are kind of in some way insatiable. It goes to that sort of stereotype of how do you please a woman? And I think there is a kind of edge of it. Now, this can be obviously deployed to greater or lesser seriousness and sort of malice, I suppose. But I guess it's there. I mean, it's certainly based on a stereotype, isn't it?
Starting point is 00:33:46 Well, we'll have to wait till the end. It won't end for another three episodes, I think. So I guess we'll all be sticking with it. I certainly will. So Julia Rayside and Alex Clark, thank you very much indeed. And we'd like to know what you think of Mum, actually, and especially Pauline.
Starting point is 00:34:05 In 2012, Doncaster was officially designated a failing local authority. Their children's services had been taken away from the council after a number of deaths of children who'd been identified as at risk and two brothers known to be a danger to others, savagely attacked and tortured two other young boys. And, of course, council funding was falling. Jo Miller was appointed by central government as chief executive of Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council,
Starting point is 00:34:35 and she would work together with the newly elected mayor, Ros Jones. As Jo Miller steps down to take a post in New Zealand, the two women are credited with turning Doncaster around. Even the Children's Services have received a good grade from Ofsted and are to be returned to the council's control. Jo Miller, the only all-female chief executive and mayor partnership. How much difference did that make to the way you've worked together? Well, it'd be fantastic when we don't say that. how much difference did that make to the way you've worked together? Well it'd be fantastic when we don't say that and there are lots more elected mayor female chief exec combos it has made a difference I think we have used our power as women together to
Starting point is 00:35:15 inspire other women and I think in particular Ros and I are really clear that despite the prevailing weather which as you've, hasn't been very kind to councils, we've had to be purposeful women who focused on what we can do and not what we can't do and be determined to be the best we can be despite the national situation. Now, how has your background, raised by a single mother on a council estate in Liverpool, influenced the way you run things? I think it's probably part of my purpose for as long as I can remember I've had a fire in my belly probably not to be defined by where I'm from or what people think I should do and I would say that it might be an unpopular belief but I have this
Starting point is 00:35:58 unswerving belief that public services and great civic leadership can either hold people and places back or it can really empower them. And Doncaster, in its past, has failed and we've deliberately tried to do that. So it's kind of in me, albeit that I wasn't growing up wanting to be a chief exec. I think you had an example of your sister and a school uniform as something that you'd really learned what was it so you know I was the first in my family first in our first in our estate to go to university supported by great teachers however uh if you have to wear that label we were a free school meal family um the council at the time decided that poor people couldn't be trusted to spend money so
Starting point is 00:36:43 they gave you these vouchers, you know. And you had to get a sort of state-issued shoes. They were horrific. And my sister stopped going to school, and lots of people from the council came to tell us off. And the reason she stopped going to school was she had those shoes on that said poor on them. And I thought at the time, why are you all coming and telling us what to do? Why don't you just, A, it's costing a lot of money,
Starting point is 00:37:05 but if you just helped us by wearing the right shoes, we'd be in such a different place. So it's kind of, I thought the shoes story is one I tell people all the time. But, you know, funding has continued to fall during your time in Doncaster. How do you turn things around with less and less money? It is really, really tough, I'm not going to lie.
Starting point is 00:37:24 So we have half as much as we used to. And I think using these big figures doesn't really help people. If you imagine running a household with half as much money as you used to have and people staying around for a bit longer than they used to, then that's the situation we face. But that's not going to inspire anybody to change. Ros and I kind of had this, we call it a dented shield. We say governments come and go and economic cycles come and go, but people and places prevail. How are we going to be the very best we can be
Starting point is 00:37:54 to make sure those communities thrive? And I think because we are of the people, that we are a diverse leadership team, then we really care about it and and that counts but i know you galvanize the business community to produce money you encourage people to volunteer but even when you've done that how do you protect the most vulnerable i mean we were listening earlier to a young woman who had suffered domestic violence and couldn't find any kind of home how do you deal with that kind of thing? I was exasperated listening to Danielle's story it's
Starting point is 00:38:32 just not good enough is it we have to protect our most vulnerable and we have in all of our choices done that so things like domestic violence you don't need to prove that you're a victim of domestic violence with us. When I got to the council with domestic violence, for example, people would move out of their home. We now say to invariably women, do you want to stay? Do you want to go back or do you want to go somewhere else? We will support you because the problem with the way we run things as a country is we keep looking at individual issues like domestic violence or youth justice or whatever it is and and actually if you don't it might cost money to deal with domestic violence now but if we don't deal with it now we'll pick up the pieces later and they're far more expensive you see the
Starting point is 00:39:21 other question we heard about earlier this week was the increase in women doing sex work in order to a scourge of our time. But if I take things like welfare, benefit reform, particularly universal credit, about which I've been really vocal, a great idea in its practice has been awful. So, you know, things like delays to payment, it is inconceivable, but it is happening that women are working for sex for food. Thank goodness for food banks and things like that. Half a million hours worth of volunteering we have in our communities to help people not fall through the cracks. We have a complex lives team, which Rebecca's workers,
Starting point is 00:40:18 who you were speaking to, we work together with our most vulnerable. We employ trauma workers now because at the bottom of people's homelessness or addiction there is always nearly always a deep-seated trauma so we pay for that because we know it saves the state money and as a group of partners in Doncaster we all turn up for each other so we'll do that and that'll save the hospital money and then we recycle money between us. Now the children's services moved to a trust in 2009 now they're coming back to the council because of a six million overspend I understand how can we be sure that the council won't fail them again give this even less money from central government than there was when the disaster happened? Yeah
Starting point is 00:41:03 it's actually a partnership Jenny so the trust is going to remain as a trust, but the council kind of supports it. So the thing that we have is this thing called Team Doncaster. So if your health, for example, you can contribute towards skilling people up for the jobs. If your children's services, you can contribute towards making sure that education's better, that we encourage new people to foster. So what I would say is unique about our place is that we all own the problem,
Starting point is 00:41:32 and we all own the challenges, and we all own the solutions. And Ros and I have been very clear that at the heart of the system, we're not the bosses, we're the convener. I use this phrase, I say that if power equals the power to change people's lives, then we give our power away because we know it makes more impact. You're leaving.
Starting point is 00:41:53 I am. You're going to New Zealand to be a chief executive in New Zealand, a country that has its third female prime minister. What's your view of the UK as a place to be a leader in local government? I think that the sun hasn't shone fairly across this land in the last few years. And so that's made the job of being a chief executive very challenging. I think if I look at women chief executives make up about a third of the chief exec cohort. I'm excited to be using my skills in a new country where ultimately, again, I can help make a difference to people's lives in, let's say, a national situation where the decks may not be stacked quite so hard against it.
Starting point is 00:42:41 Jo Miller, ending today's programme. Now, lots of you got in touch about our discussion about the number of men in childcare. Hazel tweeted, When my two sons were at nursery, their main carer in the baby room was male, the wonderful Shane. I couldn't have asked for more loving, dedicated and consistent care for them. More men on the front line in
Starting point is 00:43:00 nurseries, please. Alison tweeted, When we lived in Denmark and my son was at a local nursery, it was really common to find young men working there and the boys in particular loved it. But Herbie tweeted, what's this obsession with attracting men into childcare? It's fine that only 2% want to do it, frankly. I don't want most blokes around my young kids. Although Tom told us his experience and he tweeted, I loved my Canadian mani, male nani, Steve. He had a glass eye and introduced me to basketball and tacos.
Starting point is 00:43:37 Kate tweeted, I had mainly manis, horrid word for my son. They were great, gentle, creative, wonderful men. I was a single mum and it was great for us all. And then Bruce emailed why he thinks men are less likely to be carers. I've always found a reluctance for male care workers with children because of the fear of abuse charges. But Miss G says she thinks there's a lack of men in these roles because of the pay. She tweeted, easy answer, because the pay is dire and men won't work for such a low wage.
Starting point is 00:44:14 And then on the topic of female social climbers in fiction, Joel tweeted, Linda Snell's not the ghastly social climber, that's Susan's role in The Archers. Now, I have to make an apology to the actor Ross Boatman, who plays Derek, the brother in Mum. Thank you to the person who reminded me his name is not Trevor, for which I clearly had a bit of a brain freeze. Ross Boatman, your Derek is brilliant. Now, do join me tomorrow for the
Starting point is 00:44:46 programme at two minutes past ten, if you can. The date marks a week since Theresa May announced her resignation as the Conservative Party leader. We look at the reaction to her stepping down and discuss the news highlights of the week with Caroline Slowcock and the
Starting point is 00:45:02 journalist Sonia Soda. Two minutes past ten tomorrow. Be there if you can. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.
Starting point is 00:45:21 Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,
Starting point is 00:45:34 The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

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