Woman's Hour - When Meghan and Harry met Oprah; Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s release; Clemency Burton Hill’s return to the airwaves.

Episode Date: March 8, 2021

Oprah Winfrey’s interview with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex was broadcast last night on CBS in the US. It is due to air here in the UK tonight on ITV at 9pm. What might be the repercussions of the interview with the two former working Royals? Emma talks to Jennie Bond who was the BBC’s royal correspondent for 14 years and Dr Shola Mos-Shogbamimu, activist, lawyer and author of This is Why I Resist.The broadcaster Clemency Burton Hill tells us about a special one off episode of the Classical Fix podcast celebrating women composers that she recorded with Emma Barnett as part of International Women's Day.British-Iranian charity worker Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe has been released from house arrest, but faces fresh charges next weekend. Nazanin was detained in Tehran in 2016, and sentenced to five years in prison for plotting to overthrow the Iranian government, which she has always denied. We hear the latest on her situation, from Richard Ratcliffe and Faranak Amidi, BBC World Service's Women's Affairs journalist.A new charity is being launched called MOCRA or ‘Mothers of Children Conceived in Rape and Abuse' which aims to provide support and advice to women and girls who become pregnant from rape, sexual abuse, exploitation, trafficking and incest. They also want to provide services for children who find that they were conceived in acts of rape and sexual violence against their mothers. Founded by Dr Jessica Taylor, she joins Emma to discuss why her charity will fill a gap in services.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to the programme where it is always International Women's Day, every single day and has been for the last 75 years. Women telling their story in their own words. Coming up today on Woman's Hour, we catch up with one woman relearning to speak, the broadcaster Clemency Burton-Hill, who lost the ability to talk a year ago after a major brain bleed.

After our conversation went viral in January about that struggle, we hear about the next mountain in Clemmie's sights. The latest on the British-Iranian charity worker, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, facing new charges in Iran as fears mount about her being used as an international pawn and a new charity looking to help support women and girls who become pregnant from rape and those children conceived through sexual abuse. But first, talking of women sharing their story in their own words, it's been described as the interview that's blown the lid off the royal

family. The Duchess of Sussex, in an emotional, no-holds-barred interview with the Queen of daytime TV, Oprah Winfrey, has revealed that she found life within the British royal family so difficult that at times she didn't want to be alive anymore. In a deeply personal conversation, Meghan told Oprah Winfrey that she did not get help when she asked for it. She said a low point was when Prince Harry was asked by one member of his family how dark their son's skin might be. Prince Harry also revealed that his father, Prince Charles, stopped taking his calls when he wanted a step back from royal life. Oprah Winfrey's interview with Harry and Meghan, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, was broadcast last night on CBS in the United States, and it's due to air here this evening in the UK on ITV at 9pm. the ultimate feminist move by Meghan. Was it empowering? Was it the only choice she had? Or do you see it differently, that perhaps there are other ways?

Family relations have been laid bare, albeit it's not a family like any other, but they have been laid bare, Prince Harry specifically criticising his own father. What is your take on this? You can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844, text will be charged at your standard message rate, or on social media, it's can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media it's at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR

or email us your take through our website. We should say as you've been hearing in the news there are allegations within that interview to which there is no statement from the palace yet and of course we'll let you know if that changes while we're on air. But let's have a listen now to a couple of key parts. The Duchess of Sussex has revealed that that pressure that she felt as a member of the royal family affected her mental health so badly she considered taking her own life. Oprah asked her about her lowest

point. So were you thinking of harming yourself? Were you having suicidal thoughts? Yes. This was very, very clear. Wow. Very clear and very scary. And, you know, I didn't know who to even turn to in that. It was like, these are the thoughts that I'm having in the middle of the night that are very clear. Clarification. And I'm scared because this is very real.

This isn't some abstract idea. This is very real. This isn't some abstract idea. This is methodical, and this is not who I am. And we also heard within that interview that Harry and Meghan have been able and wanted to air their considerable grievances at the way that they were treated by the palace, including this specific example from Meghan. In those months when I was pregnant,

all around this same time, so we have in tandem the conversation of, he won't be given security, he's not going to be given a title, and also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he's born. What? And you're not going to tell me who had the conversation? I think that would be very damaging to them.

You can watch the full interview on ITV at nine o'clock this evening and on ITV Hub, courtesy of Harpo Productions. What might then be the repercussions of the interview with the two former working royals? And what does make celebrities perhaps think Oprah is the person they should talk to more than any other talk show host? I'm hoping to be joined by Sophia Nelson, the journalist and author based in Washington, DC. We'll hope to get her on the line very shortly.

Jenny Bond joins us, of course, the BBC's royal correspondent for 14 years. And Dr Shola Moss Shogbabimu, activist, lawyer and author of This Is Why I Resist, is on the line as well. I wonder if I could come to you, Dr. Shola, first of all, good morning. Thank you for joining us today. What do you make of what Meghan has had to say? Because, of course, huge speculation about what she might say I mean what she's actually said as a woman I have to say I felt really moved by it I mean all we had to do was just really listen

if you put aside any um any thoughts or feelings or speculations you might have about her I think it was really important to listen to what she was saying. And what I heard, what I heard was somebody who was suffering in silence. But people are quick to want to cover that with, but she was living in a castle. But, you know, she's got this amount of money. What's that got to do with Jackal? Rich people too suffer. Rich people to get depressed they also want to commit suicide what is actually happening that led her to you know into that situation i can only imagine the immense pressure on harry and on megan for them to get to that point so watching that interview i was left with this just strong resounding thought that the royal family failed this couple that's

that's what i'm seeing here because yes the royal family is an institution but you're also a family and i do get that family you know we have disagreements we might have fallouts things like that but when members of your family are coming to you saying i need help something is happening this is happening i need help it is not happening. This is happening. I need help. It is not the right response to tell them, well, have a stiff upper lip. Well, kind of just manage with your suffering. It's okay. And, you know, I don't think it's an accident that today being International Women's Day, it calls the question that women still have this ongoing struggle to be seen as having the right and confidence to speak for themselves and then when I heard that statement Emma about several

conversations about Archie's skin potential skin what that might be okay all right I was ready I can't remember what time of the morning it was. I can't believe this. Dr. Sholick, may we come back to that in just a moment because that's a very specific part of the conversation. But I wanted to get your overarching feeling having heard her in her own words. I will come to that, I promise. Jenny Bond, to put the same question to you,

what is your feeling now you have heard what the Duchess had to say? I think it's all very ugly. I think family spats like this are extremely unsavoury. And I didn't particularly want to peer into their dirty laundry basket, actually. I haven't spent the last year sitting over here, this side of the Atlantic, wondering how they were getting on. I'm very, very sorry that we have lost her as a member of the royal family. And I'm very sorry that she has felt suicidal. That's dreadful for any woman. But I don't understand their purpose in doing this interview.

No one was really asking these questions, which now they've sought to answer. I don't know what their motive was. I know what the purpose was and I know what the motive was. The last three, four years, we've been inundated with misinformation, character assassination of this couple, particularly Meghan. It's been deeply racist, deeply sexist, deeply misogynist, and they've not had the ability to respond. So for me, I see that the last few years, we've only heard one side of the story. The story that so-called sources from Buckingham Palace or Kessington Palace give out.

The story being shared from so-called sources close to members of the royal family. But they did not speak up. You know what? One of the things that we learned from Diana's interview is that thank God she spoke when she spoke, because if she hadn't, we would never have heard her story in her voice. So I think it is important, bearing in mind all the experiences that they had, that they speak out. And if the royal family really cared, they should have taken care of them.

Let's then those that that's your view. That's, of course have taken care of them. That's your view. That's, of course, your reading of this. And that will be many people's reading of this. I can't tell you how many messages we're getting in. I will come to those as well with people with lots of views on this and broadly dividing into two camps actually about whether the interview was the right way to do it. That's a whole other discussion as well. But just with what you said, Jenny Bond, as our former royal correspondent, you are well aware of how the royal family work as a communication machine.

Do you think what Dr. Schoeller's got to say there rings true, that they have no way of speaking back against the institution and how the institution manages media? Well, I do think that the institution or the royal family do have lessons to learn here. I think it is stuck very rigidly in the past. And I think for a woman of colour to step into this family,

a woman whose ancestors were slaves, and to suddenly be told you're not equal, you realise you're not equal you must walk behind your brother-in-law and your sister-in-law you must curtsy in order of precedence to these people your diary has to be worked around theirs and that must be quite a shock and quite galling but why didn't she know what she was getting into she herself said she was very naive about it harry has said he had long conversations about what it would entail being in the royal family.

But I think maybe William was right, you know, when he suggested to his brother and upset his brother when he said, you should take your time. Are you sure about this? Take your time, sorry, in terms of getting married or specifically? Yes, with this relationship.

Don't rush this relationship. You haven't known her that long. Are you sure you're both ready for it? Because both of you have to be ready to take on that role. What do you make of that, Shola, that the idea that it was said, quoting her words, that she was naive about what the royal family entailed? What do you make of that in light of what Jenny just had to say? So in light of what Jenny said, can I just correct Jenny? The fact that her ancestors were slaves has

jackal to do with her response or reaction to what her experience was. I think as an independent woman, a woman who was self-made, any woman will go, OK, what is required? How does it work? That's what any woman would do. So I find it questionable that you're bringing her ancestry into it when it has nothing to do with that. And when Jenny... So let Jenny, why don't you let Jenny just come back on that point just before you move on to the bigger point. Jenny, why was the reference to slavery as part of her ancestry relevant? Well, I'm a white woman.

I'm just trying to step into the shoes of a woman of colour. Clearly it's a very sensitive issue, but it seems to me that to be told you're unequal for anyone would be quite difficult. But I do think that perhaps it will be more sensitive for a woman of colour with that kind of ancestry. I stand corrected if I'm wrong. You are wrong. And the other point Jenny raised about, you know, and I think other people have raised as well, not just Jenny, about Meghan knowing what she should have known what she's

getting into in going to royal family. Can we please flip that for a second? I'm sorry, what did royal family think was going to happen when they were having, coming into the family, an independent, wealthy woman who is strong in the 21st century? I'm sorry, is it that the conduct should be that we should break her to fit our mold? Or is the royal family not meant to be evolving with the times when, after all, the queen, you know, a woman is the head of state. So this shouldn't be placing the onus on Meghan. It should be placing equal onus on the royal family. And that's what we should be doing. But to be fair to Jenny, she was saying that there are lessons to be learned here from the palace,

which is something to perhaps pause a moment on as well here to bring you back in, Jenny, which is that there are some saying this morning, you know, regardless of Meghan's particular background in terms of actually being independent, coming to the family is a very successful and financially independent woman. It's always been the case that young women coming into the royal family, whether it's Sarah Ferguson, we've actually got a clip I want to play both of you in a moment of Sarah Ferguson talking to Oprah. But whether it's Sarah Ferguson, whether it's Diana, and in this case, Meghan, you are expected to completely change your life and be locked down in a very different way, especially as a young woman coming into this family.

Jenny, do you think there have been lessons learned from what happened to Princess Diana? Clearly not enough lessons. No, I think it's very disappointing that Meghan felt that she couldn't be part of this family. Do you remember the Markle Sparkle? We all said it was brilliant when she was included

in the royal family and it is a great loss. I do think they have to learn more lessons. I do think they have to step into the 21st century, yes. I'll come back to you on that, Shola, in just a moment. Let's play this clip of Sarah Ferguson speaking to Oprah back in 1996. That was also on the Oprah Winfrey Show, made by Harpo Productions. You're sitting in the palace and you felt a sense of hatred for yourself that doesn't compute in our princess, Cinderella, duchess mind. You understand?

That is the fairy tale. That is the fairy tale. But then comes the realism that you actually, you didn't marry to get the fairy tale. You married a man. You fell in love, and you married the man, and then you've got to come to terms with the fairy tale. Now, it's not a fairy tale.

It's real life in there. Well, so to speak. It's real life in there. They think it's real life in there. Okay. Shola, the point is, perhaps it is just like this when you join the royal family, even if that's not how it should be. Then I have to question that point, because think about it. Princess Diana was part of the establishment i mean her her i mean to jenny's for you know her family right but yet she also experienced this you know the same uh you know the kind of um what you might call it these i think what she felt was definitely suffocated she felt suffocated she felt no support she felt the angst and the hatred for whatever reason

diana experienced that so there's definitely something to say about how the royal family treat wives that come in and when people question um megan being naive i'm sorry listen i don't care how many times harry sat megan down to say this is what you should expect, right? Or anybody else, until you are in it, you don't know what you're experiencing. I promise. Any woman that gets married, until you marry into the family and they become your in-laws and you get to know them better, is how you begin to understand what the dynamics are. Dr. Shod, I said I'd come back to the point about race, and I want to make sure that we do that.

You brought up the part of the interview. A lot of people, by the way, haven't yet seen it. They'll be waiting to see it this evening, or they may have stayed up very late. But you brought up the part of the interview, which is a very serious allegation around the colour of Archie's skin, even being a discussion point. Your take on that?

It is absolutely unconscionable even being a discussion point. Your take on that? It is absolutely unconscionable that any conversation at all was being had about the colour of Harry's skin, i.e. how dark it might be, and their concerns about what that might mean. Who the heck has conversations like that? The colour of Archie's skin, sorry, you just said Harry. Yeah, correct, Archie's skin. what might that might mean who the heck has conversations like that you can the color of the color of Archie's skin sorry you just said yeah the color of Archie's skin and how dark that might be and what that might mean I'm you know I'm warning to myself the kind of people that

have such conversations and they're concerned I'm sorry they're racist that that's just the bottom line and people want to kind of make uh they want to make conversations around well you know it's kind of normal people talk about who the child looked like i'm sorry no no no yeah people might go oh would it look like you would it look like her but you don't talk about being concerned that that the baby might be dark darker in complexion just because we're slightly pushed for time, can I ask you, do you think they were wrong not to name the person, Shola?

Because now it will be huge speculation as to who that was. And if it is how they say it was, and it was racist as it has been described, should they have named and shamed? I think let them tell their story when they want to tell it. After all, they've had all these years

that they've not said anything. I'm not saying that it is not right for us to know so that wherever that person is should be held to account. I'm saying, you know what, I'm glad they've started talking. And I need people to understand that that kind of mindset is what feeds the dehumanization of the Black identity. And that is why I think Meghan felt very strongly that the convention around titling grandchildren was changed just because of Archie. You can't sweep these things under the carpet and say, no, this isn't an issue. I'm going to repeat what I've been saying. You know, Britain is institutionally racist because of our legacy from slavery, from colonialism, and the way we've normalized racism in this country.

It is important for us not to normalize what we are hearing about the royal family. This is not about pointy figures or one, two people. We need to understand that the institution that is the royal family has roots in white supremacy. It does. It has roots in colonialism and in slavery. That is what the British Empire was built on.

Jenny Bond, to come back to you on that, of course, we should also stress a very serious allegation. No names attached to it and no statement yet from the palace on those things, because obviously, as Shola has been saying the whole way through this, there's two sides to the story. And this has been Meghan and Harry's turn to tell their side. Jenny, what do you make of the particular race element of this story and the allegation around that? Well, obviously, it's extremely sensitive. It's extremely explosive. But as you say, we've got no context for that remark. Meghan said there were conversations, several conversations. Harry spoke only of one conversation, a conversation he says he's not going to share. Sources are suggesting that the

person in question was neither the Queen nor the Duke of Edinburgh. But it leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth indeed. And I think probably the palace will want to respond to that one. We will see. I mean, it's a very difficult one to see how the palace will respond, Jenny, isn't it? Because they've sat down and done a very long interview and the palace are not going to probably do that in return. So how they get their messaging out will be interesting to see over the next few days, won't it? Yeah, there may be some kind of official statement. I think they're going to think it all over very carefully. Or there may just be some off the record briefings. But I think they will want to get to counter some of these points.

Thank you very much for talking to us, Jenny Bond, the BBC's royal correspondent for 14 years. We've been privy to many of those sorts of briefings in the past. Dr. Shola Moss Shogbamimu, activist, lawyer and author of This Is Why I Resist. Shola, thank you very much for your time today. Many messages coming in. If I just read a couple to you, if I can here. Megan was singled out for this treatment because she was a woman and black. I so admire her for taking control of her life in the only way open to her.

What an example for women everywhere, especially on International Women's Day. It is important that the flaws of these institutions are highlighted. It is clear in the interview that she was criticising the patriarchy and deeply embedded racism, not the Queen herself. I wonder why, given the early disastrous interviews of Diana and more recently Prince Andrew, did the couple feel this was the right way to proceed? I'm just very saddened for the whole family.

That says Leslie, who's listening in South Yorkshire. Good morning. I feel Meghan had everydened for the whole family. That says Leslie, who's listening in South Yorkshire. Good morning. I feel Megan had every right to speak about her experience. Diana was not able to, but now mental health is more prevalent than ever. It was a good time for her to be able to share her experience. That's what Helen has to say. A message here with no name. You don't air your dirty washing in public.

It's a publicity stunt. Why would you talk so publicly about your family? And another one. I cannot reconcile the Sussex's wish for privacy against washing every piece of dirty linen in public, says Sarah. So some comments coming in, not necessarily about what was said, although that is alluded to there, but also the decision to do the interview in the first place.

Keep those messages coming in, please. Was it a feminist moment? Was it the ultimate empowering moment? Was it her only choice? Or it the ultimate empowering moment? Was it her only choice? Or what do you make of that interview, which, as people are saying, has blown the lid off the royal family? Now, many of you will remember the incredibly moving conversation I had the pleasure of having with the broadcaster Clemency Burton-Hill in January. It was the first time she'd spoken on air since a major brain haemorrhage a year earlier had nearly killed her, leaving her in a coma for 17 days and without the ability to talk when she came to.

It was caused by an arteriovenous malformation, AVM as it's known, a tangle of abnormal blood vessels connecting arteries and veins. In her first broadcast interview, she laid bare just how difficult her recovering and relearning to talk had been. I had come out of the coma for I think 17 days and at that point I just thought I was in a dream or a nightmare like what what what and I just thought I was about to speak. And I mean, in a way, I'm still making sense of that. But of course, now it's my reality. But like, I might be processing of that for like my whole life, because as know you know speeches was my thing I mean yes that clip went viral and her story touched a lot of you we've got so many messages about it now Clemmie's taken it a step further and she's returned to the interviewer's chair for a special

international women's day one-off episode of her popular classical fix podcast for radio three the tables are turned and she's put me in the hot seat, someone who knows close to nothing about classical music, I assure you. The idea of her podcast is that Clemmie makes a playlist, a digital mixtape, remember those, that she thinks her guests will find interesting. Here's what she had to say about the experience of recording it and getting back into the interviewer's chair.

Well, only for you, basically. Thank you so much. It has been, first of all, to your amazing guest and the community of Women's Hour. Just, I was so touched and so overwhelmed, the response. And I suppose after that we were talking about what we could do. There's no way I can go back to work yet, but maybe in the future, maybe I can. And so we sort of cook up this idea of a special episode of classical fics.

Move it on to your next track, Anna Meredith, Moon Moons. Apparently, moon moons are moons of moons. And there's a whole idea of sort of intergalactic worlds and the different sort of worlds in other worlds. I just love the idea of like a Moon Moons. I thought you were going to tell me it was something about menstruation or moon cups or we were going to go there and I thought wow she's managed to tie together some of my other key interests in this one track around International Women's Day but I'm happy with Moon Moons taking me out far from my own mind. And I'm so sorry. I miss this. I miss that. I hate to say it, like, my work is not work. It's just me.

And so it felt absolutely miraculous, Emma, to be doing that. And I'm so grateful. I'm incredibly grateful that you came and talked to us in the first place and trusted us and trusted me to have that first conversation. And then to be your guest was, I'm sure, how other people had felt. A total education and a joy. And, you know, you gave me music to listen to

that I don't think I would have been given in any other circumstance. So a real gift. I also didn't love all of the tracks, we should admit as well. Which is the whole point. Yes, the whole point of classical fix. I mix a playlist for my my guest probably five or six tracks that i think

is you know might be interesting or might resin resonate my guest or or not like i just wanted to ask you and and one more question if I may which is I was overwhelmed by the response to our incredible conversation in the sense of incredible of how far you have come in a year since what happened to you why do you think it's spoken to so many people because I know that you have been overwhelmed. Brain injury is much prevalent than we realise, I think. I shamefully didn't ever really think about it my my grandma had dementia and alzheimer's before she died a long time ago and i think we sort of know that um alzheimer's and dementia is a sort of you know Yes, and affects millions of people. And millions of people, but also other kinds of brain injuries are so much in society than we necessarily talk about cancer, rightly so, or lots of other things, but brain injury, what happened to me was very, very, very rare and I was very lucky to survive. immediately gone um aphasia a praxia and so many people got untouched including my my my nurses and my rehab because i have never ever heard the name or the words in like a public sphere thank you and I was like oh well like if even if that I can

we can do that that something is useful then like I was about to say my work is done but it's not it's not Clemency Burton, her work is nowhere near done. And if you're interested in hearing that special episode of Classical Fict, you can find it on BBC Sounds and let us know what you think. But yesterday, and this is coming in in some of your messages, on the day that her family hoped she could return to the UK, the British-Iranian charity worker Nazanin Zaghari-Radcliffe

was released from house arrest, but in a dramatic twist of events now faces fresh charges next weekend. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has urged Iran to release her permanently, adding her continued confinement remains totally unacceptable. Nazanin was detained in Tehran in 2016 and sentenced to five years in prison for plotting to overthrow the Iranian government, which she has always denied. She was released on parole back in March 2020 and since then has been under house arrest at her parents' home in Tehran. Her ankle tag has now been removed, but there's no guarantee she'll be flying home to her husband and daughter Gabriela any time soon. Here's what her husband Richard

had to say this morning. It's not quite clear what's going on. We had a weekend of trepidation because it was the end of Nazanin's sentence yesterday. I don't think we were expecting anything to move and the fact that the ankle tag came off was a good thing. It only happened late in the day, so even all of yesterday she was calling up trying to find out what was going to go on and only at the very last minute did she get summoned down the bow.

That's a formal letter of protest yesterday morning and that prompted the iranians to take the ankle tag off um but before she got there uh her lawyer got a phone call to say listen you're going to be in court next week so it's sort of give with one hand and take with the other um what it means well she's got the ankle tag taken off she had a lovely day going around seeing her mum seeing um a grandmother going to see her sisters and seeing some of the families of other former cellmates including some british iranians so um you know this there's a lot to be said for being able to walk freely so so she was very happy did you expect the the court case appointment for for sunday did that come out of the blue

uh no i didn't expect it makes sense afterwards but no i i thought nothing would happen um so you know essentially what are they saying it's not clear um it's not going to be clear until sunday but i mean is it is it a new case potentially richard is that what they say well again probably not clear it's it's the continuation of the case that was in november which is the continuation of the case that was started in autumn 2017 um so it's that second court case that at times has been blamed on the Prime Minister and at times less so. What I don't know is to whether it's like a warning shot threat,

but more politics, or whether actually substantively there is going to be a new sentence. I mean, I spoke last week to the Foreign Secretary, who said, listen, I mean, I can't promise you it's going to be this weekend, but it feels like we're close. I've spoken to other former hostages and they say yeah you know at the end um it gets quite bumpy and this to them feels like the end game so fingers crossed it is but but also you know we might have many more months to go what have you said to gabriella to your daughter uh well she was she obviously could pick up on the mood so we were counting down uh the

days on a calendar and she was getting i mean we were all getting quite stressed sort of friday saturday and asking well is mommy really going to come home actually she can feel the moods lifted and mommy had a big grin on her face yesterday um so she's a lot happier so in terms of the answer when my mom is coming home i still don't know but um you know grateful the fact that the ankle tag is off and that she can breathe a bit. Richard Ratcliffe talking to Justin Webb on this morning's Today programme. And he'll be with her brother and his daughter delivering a 60,000 signature amnesty international petition to the Iranian embassy in London later today. That's what Richard's doing.

Let's now hear from the BBC World Service women's affairs reporter Farhan Akhamedi. Farhan, what do you make of the latest from the Iranian side? What is your reading? Well, it is all very sketchy still, Emma. It's really unclear. And as we heard from Richard himself, we don't really know what is going to happen. All we can do is hold our breath and wait for next Sunday

to see what the authorities are going to do. We have always heard from the Iranian government, the foreign minister of Iran, Mohammad Javad Zarif, that the Iranian judicial system is independent from the government, but we also know that it is really under the control of the Supreme Leader. And it all depends on what is going on behind the scenes and behind the curtains. So it is really, really hard to speculate what is going to happen. But we know that these charges that they have put forward, the new charges, as they have said, quote unquote, they are basically the same as the previous charges plotting to overthrow the regime. And their evidence is her taking part in protests outside of the Iranian embassy in Kensington, London, back in 2009.

Do you think that she, if they are dropped, and this is a big speculation here, but if they are dropped and taking our lead from Richard talking about the mood getting a little bit better for certainly his daughter to interpret, will she be allowed home? I think that's what everybody hopes so. But if those charges are dropped, and I think negotiations, diplomatic negotiations take place because, you know, Dominic Raab had said that if these charges are pushed forward by the Iranian government, then they are, the negotiations, the UK relations with Iran is going to be damaged further. I mean, they are not on good footing at the moment either, but, you know, it is going to be damaged further. I mean, they are not on good footing at the moment either, but it is going to get worse. So it depends. If the state in Iran drops these charges, it might show that they are on a better footing with the UK. Which also, we should say, I'm sorry to break in, but fits in, I suppose, with what's going

on with Joe Biden and negotiations around Iran and that bigger global picture. We will talk again. Thank you very much, Farhan Akhamidi, BBC World Service women's affairs reporter there on the latest on the Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe case, especially from the Iranian point of view, all the little that we can glean at the moment. We'll keep you up to date on that story. But closer to home, approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men aged between 16 to 59, as we have the data, experience rape, attempted rape or sexual assault by penetration in England and Wales alone every year. That's roughly 11 of the most serious sexual offences of adults alone every hour. Today, a new charity and website is being launched called Mokra, or Mothers of Children Conceived in Rape and Abuse. The aim is to provide support and advice to women and girls who become pregnant from rape, sexual abuse, exploitation, trafficking and incest.

The service also wants to provide services for children who find that they were conceived in acts of rape and sexual violence against their mothers. I'm joined now by the founder of the charity, forensic psychologist, Dr Jessica Taylor. Good morning. Morning, thank you for having us. Thank you for talking to us today. Why have you taken the step to set up this organisation? I guess it's a mixture of professional experience and personal experience because I have worked with women and girls for 12 years this year and I have met so many women and girls who've become pregnant from rape or exploitation even child sexual abuse and there really wasn't a specific service or guidelines or advice or information about you know what to do and and how to make the decision about what to do when you become pregnant from rape or abuse. And then also, you know, for me and for some of the other women on the board

who have helped me to set up Mokra, you know, several of us have either had children from rape ourselves or were born from rape. And it's about supporting both sides of that. Yes, because women and girls need support when they realise not only that they've been raped, but they're now pregnant and they don't know what to do. But also there are so many, you know, adult children out there and children under 18 who were conceived in the rape or the abuse or exploitation of their mums. And currently there are no services for them to seek help, get counselling or process some of the feelings of knowing that they were conceived in rape. And in your experience of the women you've talked to, because is it fair to say we don't know necessarily how many people we're talking about here because the data isn't there? Yeah, I totally agree.

So at the moment, there's no prevalence statistics. There's no data. There are no studies. So when we started writing research on this a couple of years ago, we published three reports on this. There's no literature to sort of draw on to go, oh, well, this year there was this many cases of this. That doesn't exist. So we don't know how many women get pregnant every year from rape.

We don't know how many children are conceived in rape. So at the moment, it's really difficult to know how prevalent it is. And with that difficulty then, I was wondering what you have seen with your experience of helping and trying to talk to these people, these women and children, about whether they tell and how they tell and when they tell the children how they were conceived? So we know from our research that the majority of women never tell anybody that their baby was conceived in a rape. And so we interviewed 85 women who had had babies from rape and their experiences were really diverse, you know, but the majority of them said that we were the first people they told that their baby was conceived in a rape or that they was pregnant from abuse or rape.

Their experiences really did range from, you know, everything from being raped repeatedly in their relationships, in long term relationships, right the way through to, you know, being 13 years old and being raped by somebody and then becoming pregnant. Their families covering it up. Some of these women and girls, their parents lied to their school and said they're having their appendix out and took them for late-term abortions for some um children uh they told you know uh family and friends that it was their sibling so they actually let their teenage daughters have these babies from rape and then brought them up as their sibling and nobody has ever spoken about it it's such a diverse experience and in terms of whether they ever tell their children that they're born from rape that was really mixed as well so some of the women we worked with and talked to did tell their children uh either when they were in their teens or when they were much older in their 20s or their 30s um and some women we spoke to said they would never tell their child the truth and and all of these different experiences have different

connotations because we spoke to some women who like for example I spoke to one woman who was in her 60s and her uh child from rape is um in their 30s and she was saying to me I've never I've never told anybody and now um you know they my child thinks that this particular man is their dad and he's not their dad. And then this particular man has now found he has an illness that's genetic. So her child is now worrying that they have this genetic issue. And the woman I was interviewing was saying, what am I supposed to do? Because I know full well, they don't have this genetic issue because he's not the dad, because I was raped when I was a teenager um you know so

there was things like that but on the other hand like I've spoken to um a woman who told her son and her son you know and then I interviewed her son and I think her son coped with it remarkably well I was very surprised when I spoke to him how he managed to process that he was born from a rape. The organisation called Mothers of Children Conceived in Rape and Abuse, it's been launched and there's a website as well we should say that you can go and have a look at for support and we should say anyone else listening to this who may need support there are links on our website to follow Dr Jessica Taylor, the forensic psychologist who set up Mokra. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hello, Greg Jenner here. Series three of Radio 4's Top Comedy History podcast, You're Dead to Me, is now in full swing. That's when you find yourself in the pocket of big Asclepius.

We like to learn and laugh about the past by pairing up a top historian with a top comedian. That is hangry at a new level, isn't it? So far in this series, we've met the Irish pirate queen, Gráinne O'Malley, explored the strange world of ancient Greek and Roman medicine and discovered the dramatic family life of the Borgias. All I know about the Borgias is from Assassin's Creed 2. So make sure you've subscribed to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.