Woman's Hour - Who was Ellen Wilkinson? Mary-Ellen McGroarty from the UN World Food Programme, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe speaks out.

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

Who was Ellen Wilkinson? Poet and playwright Caroline Bird aims to tell us all about her as her new work Red Ellen goes on tour.Yesterday Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe faced a room of journalists and cameras. She knew what she wanted to say, and what she didn't want to say after six years away from home. Despite the trauma she's been through why do some people feel she needs to express more gratitude? What are their reasons? And how surprising is it to see these comments? We hear from Gina Miller who took the Government to court - and won - over how it tried to implemented Brexit without approval from Parliament. Emily Thornberry a former Shadow Foreign Secretary.With millions experiencing food insecurity in Afghanistan what impact does this have on women’s rights? Emma speaks to Mary-Ellen McGroarty, director of the United Nations World Food Programme in Afghanistan.Are you someone who can’t help but pick up a gossip magazine? Do you love nothing more than finding out about the latest celebrity break up? Chartered clinical psychologist Dr Hamira Riaz; and Dr Aisha K. Gill, Professor of Criminology at the University of Roehampton discuss why do we do it and whether it's good for us to watch relationships breakdown in public.And the study from Cardiff University that suggests that hybrid working may encourage more women to take up local politics.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. On today's show, after that incredible press conference with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe yesterday afternoon, the first time she's spoken publicly since being freed after six long years to come home to her husband and daughter from Iran, the word ungrateful started trending on Twitter after she expressed her opinion on why it took so long to bring her home and questioned it. Today I want to ask you, why do you think some people feel uncomfortable with her speaking her mind? We'll come to that next, but already some of you have been getting in touch on social media this morning.

Please do join in if you care to. We are at BBC Women's Hour. You can text me here at Women's Hour, of course, if that's your choice. 84844, text will be charged to your standard message rate, or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, the woman in charge of running the United Nations World Food Programme in Afghanistan speaks to us from Kabul. How toxic celebrity breakups affect us, the audience, and a small silver lining of the pandemic. But first, yesterday Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe faced a room of journalists and cameras. She knew what she wanted to say and what she

didn't after six years away from home. She didn't want to talk about her experience in prison, in solitary confinement, her guards, or any of those details. But she did give her opinion about the way five foreign secretaries dealt with her situation. The journey back home was tough. I grant what Richard said to thank the foreign secretary. I do not really agree with him on that level. I'm going to tell you that because I have seen five Foreign Secretaries changed over the course of six years. That is unprecedented given the politics of the UK. I love you, Richard. Respect whatever

you believe. But I was told many, many times that, oh, we're going to get you home. That never happened. So there was a time that I felt like, do you know what? I'm like, no, I'm not going to trust you because I've been told many, many times that I'm going to be taken home. But that never happened. I mean, how many foreign secretaries does it take for someone to come out? Five. Nazanin has received a lot of praise for her composure and clarity, but also some backlash. The word ungrateful was trending straight after the press conference on social media. And a top trend this morning, if you take a cursory look now, is the phrase foreign secretaries, referring to the number of foreign secretaries she was talking about.

Despite the trauma she's been through, why do some people feel she needs to express more gratitude? How surprising is it to see some of those comments? One woman who has responded to the backlash is Gina Miller. She's also known for speaking out. You'll remember she took the government to court and won over how it tried to implement Brexit without approval from Parliament, amongst many other things, I should say. Since Gina Miller, good morning.

Good morning. What was your response to Nazanin, first of all, before we get to others? I was so extraordinarily impressed by her composure, her ability, her eloquence, her ability to really get across what she wanted to say, her strength after everything, after six years of wanting to speak out against what she felt had been repeatedly promises that were broken and let her down. I felt almost though sorry that she felt

she had to do it so soon. I have to say, I thought, you know, it was a little early, but I mean, I thought she was extraordinary. And, you know, I treated her and I thought she was absolutely composed, eloquent, resilient, all the things we should admire in women speaking up in our society. And yet, as I've mentioned, there was this trend about gratitude, ungrateful, the word that was going on social media, and also a variety of responses to what she had to say about the political handling of her situation? I felt that I felt I started feeling very, very shocked and concerned for her because in my experience over the last five or six years, the toxicity on social media is not something she would have experienced having been behind bars and, you know, suffering the cruelty and treatment

that she was. But this is a different sort of cruelty, and she would have been unaware of it. And I'm very aware of it, and the links that happen around ungrateful immigrant woman of colour speaking up, you should just go back to where you are, all the silence, know your place, all the tags that are being thrown at Nazanin, I have to say, I'm so used to now after five or six years, but I felt that I hope she's not hurting too much

and understanding that this is a tiny minority who used to be on the fringes, but somehow social media has now allowed them to be much louder voices and mainstream. And I think we all have a responsibility to call it out. And I don't think enough people are. But it is this thing about, I mean, I got included in a lot of the barrage against her overnight, saying that she's now deposed me as the most hated woman in Britain. I mean, this is just completely absurd. What I did, what she did, I mean, gosh, I can't even compare it. But, you know, being able to speak out and speak truth to power is a very powerful right in our democracy. And it's also very important that we inspire others to speak out. So to get this backlash and the threats and

the derogatory comments and the name calling is just shameful. And I really, really hope that people start almost doing the opposite on social media to drown it out for her. Because there will be those listening, and we've had many messages come in around what people think is driving that. There will be those listening thinking, well, just ignore it. It isn't the majority. And actually, don't give any airtime to it. Don't give the oxygen to it. But I know that you, having had some of the experiences you have had, think that we need to actually be tackling this and talking about it. I do think that because if not, you know, if you think about it, somebody who stands up on a platform, which this is a viral platform,

a social media platform, and shouts hatred and nastiness and misogyny and racism, if we just walk by and let them carry on shouting, then they think they're permitted. It's allowed. So I do think you have to call it out. I'm not somebody who thinks we have to ignore it. There are messages coming in, as I said. One here saying from Francesca,

the truth hurts. Women are supposed to be compliant and grateful. Nazanin has spoken the truth to power and refuses to conform to the grateful hostage stereotype. Good for her. The government has questions to answer. And another one, just taking an even further step back, would it be because this backlash from some, because she's a woman with an opinion. Also, people don't seem to understand the difference between a ransom and a debt. I'm surprised she's not angrier. I would be. Gina, how much do you think you have to hold

your emotions in check when you're in a position like this? Because actually on many questions, I know this is the bit that's been focused on, she refused to answer. Not just the things about some of the very traumatic parts, I imagine, of what she's been through. But for instance, she was asked to give specific comments on the Prime Minister and the very traumatic parts, I imagine, of what she's been through. But for instance, she was asked to give specific comment on the prime minister and the remarks he made, which were inaccurate, for instance, when he was foreign secretary about her training journalists when she was actually on holiday. She didn't do any of that.

And I thought that was incredibly clever and really shows her intellect because she chose to put her message across without making it personal. That was a very I mean that's why I admired what she said yesterday I think because you have to in the face of hate and anger you have to act with grace because otherwise you just amplify those opinions that you know you're a shrieky angry woman type thing and I it's hard and you you want to you want to shout back but I think if you can articulate what you're trying, your anger in a different way, it's far more powerful. And I think that's what she managed to do yesterday.

Let me welcome Emily Thornberry, Shadow Attorney General, Shadow Foreign Secretary, of course, when Boris Johnson was Foreign Secretary. Foreign Secretaries this morning, Emily, is trending as one of the other phrases with regards to this discussion that's happening. Thank you for joining us today. There's a message that's just come in right at the top. And I wanted to get your view on this. Perhaps Nazanin may have started with her comments with regards to the Iranians. She may have directed her comments towards the Iranians and those who locked her up. Again, expressing a feeling that there is a lack of gratitude.

What's your response to that? Yeah, thank you very much for having me on. And yes, I saw three foreign secretaries come and go during my time as shadow foreign secretary. I think my first reaction is how dare people tell us what we should think and how we should express ourselves. This is a woman who's just escaped a police state. And now she's come home to be told that she has to think in a particular way. And I think there is a level of misogyny in it and I think there's some racism, too. And yes, you know, there's nothing more popular than a woman playing herself as victim.

And Nazanin Zaghari Radcliffe, after six years in Iranian jail, is not a not a victim. That's the message I got from that press conference. And I cheered her on. I suppose at the heart of this, which, you know, without it being political, and of course, there is a lot of politics in here. We had the Foreign Secretary on the programme on Thursday, and I asked her a great deal of questions, a number of questions about the approach, how the government had actually treated the Ratcliffs, the Zagari Ratcliffs, and also about some of the errors that had been made. But just coming away from the politics for a moment, as a woman in the public eye as well, yourself,

do you have a concern about the stifling effect this can have on people actually saying how they feel about things? I think that, I mean, I've obviously, I've not had as much, anything like as much abuse as Gina, but I've had my share of abuse and I've had my share of people telling me that I should be quiet, but I've got a lot to say and I'm not going to be quiet and neither is Gina. And we just have to keep saying it, but know that when we walk into the public realm, that there will be a minority of people who just can't bear it. But the best way of dealing with them is to just keep on keeping on. And in terms of the

response that you have seen, of course, again, stressing that this is a minority, but do you agree that actually ignoring it isn't working anymore, that the denouncing of it, the calling out of it is what's necessary? I don't know. I wrestle with this because what I don't want is for any 15-year-old girl thinking about going into politics to think that she can't because life is too awful for politicians. It isn't. I'm doing the best job in the world and I wouldn't want to encourage any 15-year-old girl to come and join us in politics because we need bright, ambitious young women getting involved in politics. So I want them to look at Emily Thornberry and go, she's having a ball. She makes a difference. I want to be like Emily Thornberry. Yeah. Or maybe, you know, you're not doing such a great job and they want to do a better one.

Just got to present the other view, Emily. That's possible. I know. I know you can take it. That's certainly one of the characterisations of politicians if they're going to get through this man or woman. Because I mean, are we are we I mean, I think that also, can I just say, I think it will be doing a disservice to Nazanin if we didn't deal with the substance of what she has been saying. And, you know, I mean, Alistair Burt yesterday as a former foreign office minister raised it. You know, I raised it as well. I mean, there is a question about why it is that it took so long.

And we all knew that it was necessary for the debt that we owed to Iran to be paid. I had many conversations with foreign office ministers about it, including Alistair. And, you know, I don't know what the, I don't know what it was that was getting in the way, whether it was the Ministry of Defence, whether it was senior people in the Foreign Office, whether it was whether it was whether it was the Americans, you know, I mean, you've got to remember who the American president was at the time.

And we just don't know. And I think that Alistair and Nazanin are probably right that we need to have an inquiry into it as to why it was that it took six years, because it clearly didn't need to. I have to say, you know, I think it's nearly two years to the day that I wrote a letter and all the leaders of the, all the foreign spokespeople from all the political parties in opposition wrote to the Secretary of State at the time, Dominic Raab. And we said, you know, we will give you the political space. We will support you if you pay thisab. And we said, you know, we will give you the political space. We will support you if you pay this debt. And I think it's also striking to bring up that Jeremy Hunt,

who was also one of the foreign secretaries during this time, and in particular did get close to this case and to Richard Ratcliffe meeting Gabriella, tweeted last night, Nazanin doesn't owe us gratitude. We owe her an explanation. She's absolutely right. It took too long. He went on to say, we must be honest and say that the problem

should have been solved earlier. So it is important to grapple, as you say, with the politics of this and what was going on. I mean, Liz Truss did talk about a lot of things not being able to be said at this particular point.

But as you say, the call for an inquiry into this. Gina Miller, just to come back to you, if I can, a message here that's just come in. Where's people's compassion? Having followed Nazanin since she was first arrested,

she must be furious after all she went through. The debt which released her was a debt we as a country owed and it could have been paid years ago. I completely admire her wonderful dignity and composure, says Mary. Just to give a flavour of some of you to hear that because there are a lot of those coming in. But then there's one here which says, this is really simple with regards to Nazanin behaving so ungratefully. Don't go to countries that are known to be unstable when you're on your own. I slash this country have spent millions trying to free her from a situation

that was totally self-made. What is your response to that? Because I can't, you know, I can't sanitise that, that's coming in and that is a view. Yeah, there are lots of those sorts of views being expressed. And I think it shows the lack of understanding. It's the shouting without reading or finding out the details. And because it's actually, as the Foreign Secretary now admits, it was a legitimate debt. This is not a ransom. This is a debt. And the fact that, you know, she was going to visit her parents. So people now jump on whatever the newest trend is without finding out the facts. And I think it's about pausing to find out what is going on, on whatever the issue is, rather than just shouting. And it is one of the things that social media does.

It's the piling on effect and actually going to the online safety bill. It's something that's included in the bill. And I'm really pleased about it because I've been campaigning about two things in particular, that anonymity should go and piling on should be made illegal. So those are now, I mean, there are lots of other flaws with the bill. But anyway, I'm pleased about those two. There's lots of other details as well.

I'm pleased about those two. But, you know, we have to, in my view, I understand what Emily said about wanting to attract bright, brilliant, passionate, independent women into politics. I absolutely agree with that. I say that, you know, we need to womanise politics much more than we do at the moment. But at the same time, I don't think we can ignore as well because being a woman of colour in whatever walks of life, in business, in politics, in social media, in campaigning,

wherever it is that I've been, there is a problem. We have to accept that. We haven't done enough. And we thought that ignoring it, it would go away and it hasn't. So I think now is the time to call it out and stamp it out, not just call it out, but stamp it out and it hasn't. So I think now is the time to call it out and stamp

it out, not just call it out, but stamp it out and say, these are unacceptable behaviours, that women do not have to dim their light. They do not have to stop speaking out if they have every right. This is not about one voice louder than the other. This is about everybody having the right to speak up, male, female, whatever gender, you know, whatever you are, you have a right, as long as you do it with intelligence, with compassion and with dignity, and you have an intellectual point to make, you can respect each other's views without resorting to this bile that we are seeing on social media. Gina Miller, thank you very much. Emily, just it's like you knew what was coming up in Woman's there and it would be it'd be very odd if I didn't just say that our next discussion is about how hybrid working is allowing more women

to come into politics and to come into local politics and and a small silver lining of the pandemic if we can put it like that is now um people being able to join remotely to do that and and I just wonder do you see that as something as a bit of a glimmer of hope on the horizon? It does very interesting, because I was talking to a group of students yesterday online. And, and there was, there was sort of half a dozen of them. And there was a young woman at the back. And she raised her hand a couple of times, but she wasn't doesn't seem to be being seen. And eventually, I said, there's a woman at the back who wants to speak. And then she talked. And we all just sat and just just listened and I just she wanted maybe want to cry

she talked about being a young carer and how difficult her life was and how but she was involved in politics in terms of being at university and was and was you know in this labor group and I was talking to but you know nevertheless she was talking to me because it was online she wouldn't have been able to so it just struck me as an example of hopefully if we open life out a bit more so that we can get a better representation because there are there are lots and lots of carers particularly who find it very difficult to get out and get actively involved in politics and certainly um i hope that the changes will result in greater participation of carers, because obviously, we have to do something about social care. It's an absolute national scandal. Emily Thornberry, Shadow Attorney General, thank you very much. Of course,

former Shadow Foreign Secretary with regards to what we've been discussing with the Nazanin's case and some of your responses still coming in. Another one here, great for Nazanin to speak out and be so clear that she should have never been interned. Calling out five foreign secretaries who faffed about was brilliant. For many years, they said there was no debt and finally it's been

acknowledged and paid. I think Boris Johnson got off lightly, frankly. Of course, it wasn't talked about publicly for a long time. That was the difference. And many of you also coming to us with those particular views,

but also your views of why you think Nazanin may have received some of the responses that she has from a minority, as we can see it, certainly. Well, talking then, as we were just beginning to do, about a potential silver lining from the pandemic and women's participation in politics. And I mean, actually being in the room and doing it, as it were, not just as voters, although that's very important as well. A new study from Cardiff University has suggested that the pandemic and the ways of working in the way we're changing could mean more women getting into local politics. The ability to dial in to meetings on video call may be the key to unlocking some of those final barriers that more often women face with caring duties. Leah Hibbs is a lecturer in social sciences at

Cardiff University and author of the study and in a moment I'll talk to Jen Burke-Davies who's a local counsellor in Cardiff. Leah I'll start with you, good morning. Good morning, how are you? Tell us what you found you know coming into a woman's I suppose on a video call as well. Yes it's great yes I'm kind of calling in from at home this morning. So a very apt example of kind of, you know, this hybridity and these new ways of working. So this was actually just a kind of very small part of my kind of wider PhD thesis, which looks more widely at the experiences of women local councillors in Wales. So it was a piece of work where I went out and spoke to 19 councillors. Unfortunately, the pandemic hit right in the middle of my data collection. So I had to

quickly shift everything online. But that was really interesting, because I had a lot of councillors before the pandemic speaking to me about, you know, we haven't engaged as much as we should be with these kind of technological solutions and then during the pandemic everyone obviously working online attending council meetings council chambers online and they were saying it was really positive and it opened up so many opportunities they weren't having to travel for hours in some cases to get to council chambers for example. And there was a lot of kind of positive talk around what this might do in terms of diversifying and opening up council chambers

to a kind of more diverse range of councillors in the coming years. Well, it will be, I suppose, the test is if it lasts, won't it? And also if it actually attracts more people in more women specifically well that's it and we've got the local council elections coming up here in wales you know in in may and i think it'll be interesting to see whether we have seen an increase in kind of the percentage overall of women participating as local government councillors but like you say i'm a little bit cautious i'm cautiously optimistic i think it's been written into the formal rules. You know, it was included in an emergency bill during Covid and it's now been retained in the local government and elections bill. So I think that's great. But I think it's the interaction of those formal rules with what we kind of consider to be informal norms and cultures

and stigmas which might have an impact on whether we see a slip back into what we kind of you know what we call this kind of traditional presenteeism you know the fact that you have to be physically present in order to participate and quite a lot of my participants were saying that attendance is incredibly highly scrutinized and missing a meeting because your child is sick or your child care has fallen through that will be used against you as political ammunition in the chamber and so I think having this flexibility and this hybridity will enable especially women facing this you know this kind of traditional still kind of division of child care roles

that will enable them to be able to attend with their child sat next to them on a sofa is ill and i think we've seen this working in academia for example i've been in meetings where people's children have been next to them on the sofa and it's no issue this is the 21st century you know although there is there is also a debate amongst women about whether that is also how it should be you know whether they are able to give their best whether they feel good about it you know yes it may allow them did you come across some of those feelings um i did i i think what's important though is that this isn't saying everyone's going to attend online and i think it's important quite a lot of the people I was speaking to, I was speaking to them

at a time when everything was online, everyone was attending digitally, so I think it'll be interesting to see what now what happens when we move to a more hybrid model and I think we will see, we obviously will see a return to people attending in the chamber but it's just having that safety net of being able to say you know i've got this meeting at five o'clock something's fallen through i can't um i can't now get to the chamber you know people get stuck in traffic you know that accidents happen on the m4 accidents happen on the a roads people can't get to council chambers and just being that having that option of being able to attend without being physically in a room I think is you know one of the key positives to

come out of this pandemic. Jen good morning welcome to the programme as a councillor in Cardiff then describe your setup what's going on with you and how are you making it work? So I was first elected in 2017 and I fell pregnant with my twins about six months in so I had a decent chunk of time to get used to working as a counsellor and working um physically within council chambers and I found that when I returned to the council environment obviously um which was March 2019 um I very quickly got used to the fact that I was spreading myself too thin um for example on a Monday evening we would have uh labour group sometimes we'd have labour group meetings on a Monday evening so I would have to pick the kids up from nursery when they attended

get home get them dinner feed myself get down to county hall which is about three or four miles away and sit in a three-hour meeting, come home for half nine, ten o'clock, and we co-slept because my children sleep horrifically. So I was generally up all night with them. And I found that that... Wasn't a great, great experience in some ways? Not really. I mean, in hindsight i think i i recognize now that i made myself quite ill um and now with the i had you know postnatal depression anyway and i don't think i recognized that for quite a while and then obviously lockdown happened and and that was

exacerbated and compounded and now because we're able to work remotely my twins are now three and a half they um come home if we have a full council meeting which starts at half four they come home they come into the kitchen i'm sat here they'll come and sit on my lap i'll i'll give them coochies and susses and um stroke their hair and we'll have a little chat whilst i'm participating in the council meeting and i completely agree with what leah said in this in the sense that it's not about keeping me in the home so I can be present for my kids. It's about offering me an opportunity to choose how I navigate and balance. And I think it's really important that for my own sense of well-being,

that I don't feel boxed into a corner, that I have that chance to think what's best in any given situation. Does my child need me? Have I seen my child this week? Do I want that quality time with them or conversely do I want to go into the council chamber and be with my colleagues and be present in that way there's a balance and I think it'd be it's empowering to offer that the individual the choice because you've also got a full-time job haven't you I do yeah I work at Cardiff University as well right so so there is you know that's there's quite a lot going on then. I suppose from your point of view, would you have got into it?

I know you did this before you got pregnant. If you'd known how it was, would you have still got into it? Because I think there's also that, isn't it? You're sort of saying, I got into it and then I was in it. And then a lot of other things happen, which has allowed me to do this in a slightly different way. Because it's also about getting women through the door in the first place.

Yes, I think I have twins, so I think it's a unique scenario. Knowing how our day flows, I don't think it would have been possible for me to have had the kids, and particularly at that young an age, if they were older and I was older, we might have been able to make it work. I am really mindful that local government structures aren't made with people like me in mind. And when I say people like me, I mean women, people with children, someone from a minority or underrepresented background. It's very much made with one type of person in mind, and

those tend to be older, straight male people people so over the course of the last couple of years since I've had the children there have been times when I thought the system isn't there for me it's it's crushing me I can't keep up I'm gonna I'm gonna step away but then I'm also too bloody minded to let it to let it beat me and I want to be here and I want to be so I want to speak out and I want to make my community better and I want to um represent the people that I live amongst and I don't think that the penalty for having children as a woman should be that I have to excuse myself from public life women with children and women who don't have children have things that are valid to say that are unique experiences compared to what's in

council chambers and I don't think that I would I would be doing myself a disservice and I'd be doing other women a disservice if I let the system beat me down and I suppose also the other thing to say is you feel like this that this has helped you this hybrid working and this is some of the background which is really important to be able to hear clearly about when you've you've kind of grappled with it you know at times it's been better than others lots of people will be able to relate to that but in terms of you know kind of wanting to do it and having your voice in it that is also very important and and do you think others though will view you um just as good in your role should I say by being at home because it's one thing how you feel about it and being able to do it but some people are still very

conscious of not showing their home life whatever that is I think it's a balance and I think had it not been if hybrid working had come in without the pandemic then I think it would leave question marks for people but everybody over the last two years has had to homework everybody has had a peephole into the way that other people are able to work and have children at home it's not unusual I can sit in a meeting and be productive and um and still sit with my child I am capable of doing those two things at once and doing them extremely well I am a good counsellor. I am active in my community. I am present. I'm in the park every day with my kids or my dog. People see me, they stop me and they speak to me and I'm able to stay on top of my casework and most of my reading for council

and be effective in my community. And I think that's what's important. And that's the difference that perhaps is coming through in the way that people may or may not judge each other. You also talk about peepholes. I just love having a look in people's homes still. I know that's very, you know, 2020, but it's just good to have a look around. You get to know each other in a different way,

all those things to talk about. Sarah says, lovely to hear you saying cuddles and kisses in Welsh on the radio, translating your... Say it again to me. I'm not going to try. Cutches and susses. There you go I lived in Cardiff for nine months and I'm still not good at that. Thank you very much for talking to us this morning that's Jen Burke-Davies who's a local councillor in Cardiff and Leah Hibbs who

looked at that research for her work in social sciences she's a lecturer at Cardiff University. Now talking about education talking about what matters, let's think about what's going to happen in Afghanistan tomorrow, where primary schools will open for the first time since the Taliban took over the country six months ago. And the belief is that both boys and girls will be allowed to attend. 23 million people, that's more than half the population, though, still face acute food insecurity in the country, which is set to worsen as the war in Ukraine impacts food and energy prices. While some women have been allowed to go back to work and university,

many are unable to earn enough to feed their families. Ukraine, of course, has been at the focus of global efforts in recent weeks, but with many others suffering, how do you, how do the agencies, how do we all balance those competing needs? Well, Mary Ellen McGruarty is Director of the United Nations World Food Programme in Afghanistan. And she joined me earlier from Kabul.

I asked her what life is like for women in Afghanistan at the moment. It's a bit of a mixed bag at the moment for the women. On a couple of a mixed bag at the moment for the women on a couple of different fronts. You know, while we have our female national staff back at work on the humanitarian side, which is great, and we're able to, you know, for the surge, recruit more women, which is fantastic. You know, female civil servants are still not back at work.

We're all waiting tomorrow as well to see if the schools were open, as promised, and for all girls and boys equally. And also, you know, I'm meeting a huge number of women that are actually, you know, that are out of work, that are unable, that are the bread winners in their family, unable to put food on the table. You know, I mean, Afghanistan has the highest number, proportion of widows in the world. Many of them are young widows in the last couple of months of the conflict. They're old widows from decades of the conflict. And they're the women that are really struggling as well. You know, I mean, so the women I am meeting when I'm out on the, you know, on WFP distribution sites are women that have lost their jobs,

either because they were in the informal labour sector or their civil servants unable. And there's a lot of trauma associated with that. You know, I mean, they're telling me how very, very difficult it is for them to stay at home. And I often imagine myself if somebody told me tomorrow, you know what, you cannot go to work again. I don't know how I would cope. Yeah, I mean, I think when we first heard about it, it was a discussion I suppose about women's rights and the clock being rolled back, but now it's about the real life effects of not actually

being able to work. And just to say what you said again, I think for people to take it in that Afghanistan has one of the highest proportion of widows is something shocking for people to perhaps take in. Yeah, it is and it's something startling when you travel across the country,

you know, when you meet old women and you understand, yeah, decades of conflict, they lost their husbands many years ago and they're dealing with the trauma of that and they're bringing up their children by themselves. But then in the last months of the conflict here in Afghanistan before August

were some of the bloodiest months in the entire conflict. You know, the highest levels of infrastructure destroyed, highest levels of displacement, and huge, huge numbers of civilian casualties. And that also, you know, that blood of men that's running in the soil has left many, many women trying to cope and eke out an existence by themselves and raising their children.

Obviously, we're talking to you with regards to the focus on food and how that works and the focus of the world on Afghanistan. I'm very minded, of course, the focus has been on Ukraine and the war in Ukraine. But the UN did warn earlier this year that nine million Afghans were at risk of famine. But earlier this month said that this had been averted. Why has it been able to be averted? Is it because of aid? Yeah, I mean, we have just pushed, you know, pushed and shoved and pushed and the donors, I have to say, I really have to commend the donors that stood up and gave us the resourcing. I mean, WFP, we reached over 8 million people in January, 12 million people in February. On target to reach 18 million in March. We're not out of the woods

yet though. The harvest is not into June and July. We're in the very peak of the lean season. Spring started yesterday with the start of the new solar year, Nauru's, that's traditionally celebrated. I mean, it was much, much quieter than normal as families struggled to put food on the table. But still, it still brings a season of hope and possibility. But yeah, so over the last couple of months, it's really been across the humanitarian sector, a massive scale-up with the support of donor countries

and countries particularly like the uk i was going to say the uk government of course playing a role in that a major role yeah yeah they they i have to really say i mean they've been incredible you know extremely generous so thank you to the people of the uk and to the government of the uk and they are also the co-host on the pledging conference for Afghanistan next week on the 31st of March. So they have to really be commended in the leadership as well in being the co-host on that. And I do hope that the generosity will continue. It needs to continue.

As I said, we're not out of the woods. The harvest is not into June, July. And we don't have a solution. Many people that we are assisting today are people who have lost their jobs through the economic crisis. We don't have a solution. Many people that we are assisting today are people who have lost their jobs through the economic crisis. We don't have a solution for that. You know, and until that there is, you know, renewed investment, a renewed appetite for businesses in Afghanistan, for work to come back, for jobs to come back. You know, I mean, the humanitarian needs will continue. How concerned are you about the attention having been on Ukraine? Because, of course, the world had been looking towards Afghanistan.

Now what's going on in Ukraine has dominated in many ways. And is that a concern in your position just purely because you need to also keep funds and mines on Afghanistan? Yeah, I mean, it's a concern on a couple of different levels. You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, on the funding side, you know, I mean, the last thing really the world needed was another crisis. And I mean, you know, children, no matter where they are in the world, if they are hungry, they deserve our support. It's not their fault. It's just a lottery of birth.

But also for WFP, you know the the enormous rise in food prices that that we are seeing the rising fuel prices will also impact on our operations also the price of food in the market for those that can afford it is also going to go up so there are multiple facet impact of the of the crisis in ukraine in addition to the funding. So I am pleading with the donor countries, yeah, please, we still, we need, the people of Afghanistan still require international support. Of course, Russia and Ukraine together exporting 30% of the world's wheat. So that's a key part of what you're describing and the costs of food associated. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we depend a lot here in Afghanistan

on that northern corridor as well. And already we're seeing up to about 20% increase in price, food prices. It's probably going to, at our early estimate, it's probably going to increase the price of our operations here by, you know, close to $20 million. But then also what it's going to do for just households,

you know, households already that are probably if they have any income to buy food or spending over 80 percent of their income on food just to feed themselves on a daily basis you can imagine what a price hike is going to do to their ability to be able to do that so it's just the ripple effect of this is it's staggering I wanted to ask you about something different to see if you had heard anything at all about it. But there is a series of reports in The Guardian newspaper about a rise in the illegal organ trade in the country since the Taliban's taken over. There's a particular woman that they focus on who is reported to have sold her kidney for the equivalent of £1,000 just so she can look after her family, feed them and care for them. Are you hearing of people going to these lengths?

Yeah, I mean, what we've heard over the last couple of months, way back as far as November, is just that households are resorting to absolutely desperate coping measures to be able to feed themselves and their family. When you meet people out across this country who for the first time in their lives find themselves with absolutely nothing, have sold their household goods and are just, you know, looking for any means possible to try and put food on the table.

And, you know, the issues of, you know, young girls being sold into early marriages so that siblings can eat. It's heartbreaking. Yes. And of course, just as you say, people perhaps, you know, relieved to hear that the famine has been avoided. But at the same time, people want to hear what's been going on on the ground. And we're grateful for your time today. Just looking to the future, if you are able to do that, how do you see it playing out? Do you see it as the Taliban or just simply having to try and hope

that the Taliban will offer more freedoms for people, in particular women? Yeah, they have to. I mean, we have to keep children in school, protected girls in school. We have to find ways to get people back to work. And yeah, the limitations, the restrictions, I mean, they can't.

I mean, people have, everyone, men, women, have a right to be able to attend work. And that is critical. And it's critical for the economy of Afghanistan. And it's critical for the well-being of Afghanistan that both men and women can access work equally. Mary Ellen McGrawty of the World Food Programme in Afghanistan. They're talking to us from Kabul. Now, you have also been getting in touch throughout the programme with your various reactions.

And I wonder what your reaction will be to this and perhaps how honest you will be about it. How much do you engage when celebrities break up? I mean, even if it's just light touch, you may be aware of far more information, whether it's true or not, that's a whole other debate, than perhaps some of your friends and what they're going through. Why do we, so many of us, have a look at the details of a toxic relationship breakdown in the public eye

from, I don't know, Pamela Anderson to Tommy Lee to Chris Brown and Rihanna and now Kim and Yee. The public divorce of the TV personality Kim Kardashian, the reality star and the rapper known more commonly as Kanye West, has been controversial to say the least. Kanye has been accused of showing abusive and manipulative behavior towards Kim. He's been publicly called out for this behaviour, notably by the American TV host Trevor Noah, who was recently suspended from Instagram for 24 hours for responding to Trevor Noah using a racial slur. Well, I'm joined now by the Chartered Clinical Psychologist,

Dr. Hamira Riaz and Dr. Aisha K. Gill, a Professor of Criminology at the University of Roehampton. Good morning to you both. Hamira, if I may start with you, what do you think the appeal is? Why do you think so many do engage if they admit it? It depends who you ask. If you ask a social scientist, they would say that gossip has evolutionary value. Staying in the know, being connected, knowing who to trust, who not to trust.

If you ask a neuroscientist, they'll say that when we gossip, reward centers in the brain light up. So it's actually pleasurable in and of itself to be gossiping. If you ask a psychologist, though, I think we would say probably a bit more nuanced. It depends on the degree of emotional investment. You can have quite a superficial relationship to gossip, which means that you dip in and out of a celebrity's life. And as a way of switching off from the drama of your own, all the way to actually having a very significant emotional investment in the gossip, if you're going through something similar, and you identify with that celebrity, and actually, then you're vicariously going through the highs and lows of that challenge, much as you would be drawn into a favourite character in a book or a film to try and be

a witness on that issue and help you to get a different perspective on what's going on. And I mean, I mentioned in this particular instance, and I'm also just going to bring up very early on in this discussion about Kanye West being open about living with bipolar disorder, which I think is a very relevant detail. But we're also talking more generally about celebrity breakups. But there have been examples which has seen him be banned from Instagram. He's recently released a music video in which a cartoon version of the rapper has seen kidnapping, decapitating and burying the comedian Pete Davidson,

someone his ex, Kim Kardashian, is currently dating. I mean, what impact do you think that can have on people who are invested in how they view relationships and perhaps the world around them? So I think what happens is the brain gets stuck in a binary state. And a brain that's stuck in a binary state is an unhealthy brain. People are messy, relationships are complex, ruptures in a relationship, there's no winners. Actually, it's the balanced perspective that allows both parties to move on. I think this gossip has a tendency to be quite intense. And often, if you're supporting one versus the other, quite negative about the other. And as soon as the brain gets activated by intensity and negativity, it starts to become more rigid.

And it can't see alternative perspectives. As soon as that happens, it's really difficult for the emotion not to impact your judgment, which I think is what's going on here. Ash, let me bring you in at this point. What do you want to say about the impact and how people take this in, perhaps to their own lives? Sure. I mean, I have to admit, I don't follow Kanye West or Kim Kardashian. I think it's really important to highlight that. But I have been looking at this in the context of violence. And what we're talking about here is abuse because his actions online are not actually entertainment. They actually normalise everyday forms of abuse, encourage violence and harassment. And basically it contributes to misogynistic, aggressive online behavior, particularly towards women. And, you know, what what West's behavior illustrates is stalking, harassment.

If I can't have you, I'm going to destroy you. And let me just illustrate that because, you know, he normalizes the abuse and shaming of women, sharing private information, including private conversations, that is abuse. Posting pictures or conversations about an ex online, that is abuse. Posting about ex-partners, dating partner is abuse. What this celebrity salacious, problematic, dysfunctional airing of the relationship, what it it does it kind of highlights that the the male individual in this in this situation kanye is he's actually um he's controlling the narrative of the breakup and he is and that should raise alarm bells because

you know when we look at celebrity culture it kind of configures and reinforces certain discourses about violence against women. And it actually contributes that. So I really think that it's not entertainment. I think it's unhealthy. It kind of draws attention to misogyny and its insidiousness in terms of how it disciplines when women exit out of relationships and I and I draw attention to that particularly in terms of emphasizing post-separation violence and I think and I think what you're saying there as well which is why we're having in part this discussion is social media and then the way the media then writes up social media there's there's no badging of that, is there? There's no saying this is what this is.

It just appears, as you say, almost in the form of entertainment. It's problematic. I mean, I think it kind of reinforces that no one's being held accountable for this abuse. And the actions actually have wide ranging consequences because, you know, Kanye West and Kim Kardashian, they have massive fan bases. And it kind of leads to, it kind of gives license to replicate that behavior in terms of these platforms. And that can be incredibly triggering, particularly so many of us are online and that for me is a cause for concern, particularly survivors of abuse who, you know, relationships break, you know, manifest so much turmoil and many victims of this kind of abuse,

you know, are forced to endure long-term violence. And this is basically, you know, let's not dress it up, you know, it's gender-based terrorism online and there has to be consequences of that in terms of the complicity of those who are doing likes commenting uh taking sides um i i just think it mirrors of what happened what is happening in our society and and you know individuals like Kanye, you know, they need to be called out in terms of their behavior because it has a trickle down effect in terms of victim blaming mentality. And I do strongly believe that social media platforms, tech platforms, you know, they have a responsibility to rigorously monitor hate speech and bullying and i think it's a joke that kanye west has been banned for 24 hours when the comments and like aspects of the of his page it still continues but it is important that um we kind of we kind of address and we we look at the

wider structural issues around the incitement of violence. And we earlier on, Gina Miller spoke about, you know, the derogatory comments. You know, it's fueling oxygen. I was thinking as you were speaking how this linked to what we were discussing earlier about women's voices and placing it in that wider space. Dr. Aisha K. Gill, thank you very much for your time. Just a final word from you, Hamira, if I can, about, I suppose, very strong words there. It'd be very interesting to speak to somebody like Kanye West,

because as you say, who's holding to account, who's talking, who's hearing what's going on? Do you think there is a trickle-down effect? Do you see that in any of your conversations? I think for sure. I think one of the biggest issues with regards to social media and how we engage with it is the slippery slope between benign disinhibition, which we know that's what the internet allows us to do and social media allows us to do. It allows us to share more

to toxic disinhibition, which is around judging and blaming and victimizing and saying things and showing sides of ourselves that we would never do in real life. So we know in the research on how we interact with social media that actually we're playing with identities. And so there is something around this that we need to get to the bottom of, but we need to take personal accountability. And when it comes to things like gossip, it does have an addictive quality. And just like anything that potentially activates the brain and the reward centres of the brain, you know, there's you want it and you like it. But actually, it's not always good for you. Yes, indeed. I mean, like like a lot of things in life. And I think that thinking about your reward centre and also if you're confronting your own issues,

the stuff going on in your life, or are you just projecting out and enjoying the drama and the trauma of other people's lives? As you say, a lot of people also using it as a numbing tool and not necessarily thinking about that and taking a step back. Perhaps your words will have made people think a bit differently this morning. Dr. Hamira Riaz, thank you for your time and expertise. The messages coming in here along the lines of, for instance,

there's one here I think social media does have a lot to answer for. It seems to be a place where people can just run and be rude while hiding identity. Well, that's the bigger point about the online harms bill. The world, I think, was a happier place before it. And the constant sharing, in quotation marks, is counterproduproductive and we've got a message from liz who says morning woman's hour please tell uh your woman counsellor young woman counsellor and mum of twins uh who we had on earlier that her interview has made my day online meetings she's doing a brilliant job online meetings have made it possible for more residents to engage and easier for councillors with children and caring roles. Why did the government stop

allowing English councils to meet virtually? Because of course, we were talking with regards to Wales and we were talking to Jen Burke-Davies, who was on the line taking a moment out from many of her meetings. So thank you for that. But talking about women in politics, let's end with the story of Ellen Wilkinson, who's been lost in history. Well, that's the argument of the poet and playwright Caroline Bird, along with Northern Stage in Newcastle, who is seeking to change that with a new play called Red Ellen, which goes on tour from the end of this week. Caroline, Ellen Wilkinson, who is she? Oh, that's such a question. Okay, so officially, she was a Labour MP. She was a Labour MP for Middlesbrough and then for Jarrow.

Then she was in Churchill's administration and then she was the minister for education in 1945 before she died in 1947. But her life is like this magician's top hat. Like the more you reach into it, the more you pull out. She organised the Jarrow March. She had car chases with MI5. She nearly got Einstein killed by accident. She was four foot nine. Her feet didn't touch the floor in Parliament. She moonlit with communists. She was responsible for air raid shelters during the war

and nicknamed the Shelter Queen. She brought in free school milk and free school meals. She drove her car so fast that she repeatedly drove into ditches once she collided with a heavy transport lorry during a blackout and then went straight back to work with a fractured skull. I mean, I could keep on talking about her forever because her life, she was nicknamed the fiery atom,

the mighty atom and the fiery particle, not just because she had bright red hair, but because she had this extraordinary drive. And she was running everywhere, I believe. And she was running everywhere, yeah. Which is kind of, it's amazing. And it's also concerning because she had chronic asthma. But she was constantly falling over in the corridors in the Houses of Parliament because she was literally running. I was only talking about this with a colleague the other day about it not being a good look as a woman to perhaps run in the corridors when doing your work.

Maybe not a good look for anyone, but just she was saying when she was younger she used to do it and she stopped herself. But I suppose this was a woman with actually in the end not that much time and a lot to do. Exactly, exactly. And, you know, the play is kind of about that myth of tirelessness. You know, we talk about tireless campaigners. When we talk about politicians, good politicians, we say they fought tirelessly.

But there's no such thing as a tireless person. And actually, those tireless campaigners are the ones who are always tired. And Ellen Wilkinson was extraordinary. But eventually her extraordinariness did cost her everything too. Yes, and just say about that, because the way that she died led to her, in some ways, people think, being not written about because there was some shame. Yeah, she died of an overdose of her own asthma medication.

And it's shrouded in mystery that night. Obviously, I've made my own decisions about what happened that night in the play because um in order to be ruthlessly accurate it's kind of necessary to fictionalize especially as her um personal personal diaries were all burnt after her death so you know in yes in my play uh it's an accidental overdose where she is trying not to die and therefore ends up dying. And I should stress that, you know, I'm not making a comment at all about the shame of that, but that's how it was viewed at the time. Exactly. Which is one of the reasons perhaps we don't know her name. There are often many reasons we don't know women's names.

And you're trying to rectify that. I was really struck by what we've had in the programme today. You know, as ever, you don't know what's going to be in. But just she wasn't married. I don't believe she didn't have children. There was no way, you certainly argue, for a woman in politics at that time to be able to do any of those things. Yes, she couldn't have been a wife in terms of the definition of a wife at that time because she had you know she had so many places to be at once she couldn't have a child and then run off to Berlin to report on Hitler's imminent march on the Rhineland and then run back it wasn't possible so she had affairs with with married men because that was the type of relationships that fitted in with her schedule, that someone

that you could see a few days a week. And, you know, so that was the kind of marriage she needed, really. Yes. And how schedules have changed or not. I mean, that's the other thing that you can hear in today's programme, right from Emily Thornberry saying we need women to want to get into politics through to how the pandemic perhaps has finally given women a different way of doing that. Yeah. And, you know, I often think about Ellen Wilkinson now and how she could have been fully herself in every way. Obviously, she would have been horrendously busy just as she was then and maybe still wouldn't have looked after herself. But at least she might have had some support because we need to support people like that we we need to say you

know you don't have to be unstoppable because that's not possible exactly and and and also i know you're trying to be extremely honest about the toll that that took on her in your writing caroline bird lovely to talk to you. The play is called Red Ellen. It begins on the 25th of March at the Northern Stage in Newcastle. And Helen's messaged in saying, listening to you talking about the extraordinary Ellen Wilkinson,

on Woman's Hour, a working class woman in a man's world. Ellen campaigned tirelessly for social change and equality and her story deserves to be known far and wide. And of course, that context within which she was working, very different in many, many ways. But I think, as I say, striking with what we've been talking about

throughout today's programme about women in the public eye, women talking, using their voice and how they are then received by some. And you have been a big part of that, as always. Thank you for your messages. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.