Woman's Hour - Whooping cough, Shirley Conran, Lying, Afghanistan tourism

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

Five babies have died from whooping cough this year as cases continue to rise in England. Medical doctor Dr Saleyha Ahsan, who currently has whooping cough herself, joins Clare McDonnell to discuss. Author, journalist and campaigner Dame Shirley Conran has died aged 91, days after receiving her damehood. Journalist Felicia Bromfield joins Clare to discuss her legacy. What would happen if you could only speak the truth – and not even tell white lies? That’s the subject of a new book by Radhika Sanghani, called The Girl Who Couldn’t Lie. Radhika herself hasn’t lied for two years – she joins Clare to talk about why she wanted to write the book and the things she’s learnt from telling only the truth. Despite the challenges posed by the Taliban regime, economic instability, poor infrastructure, and the ongoing suppression of women's rights, foreign tourism is reportedly increasing in Afghanistan. The country's authorities have begun training hospitality professionals and assert that Afghanistan is safe for foreigners, with all visitors welcomed and treated equally, including foreign women, they say. Sascha Heeney, who has recently visited Afghanistan, and Afghan journalist Zarghuna Khargar join Clare to discuss. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. How worried should we be about today's news on the rise in whooping cough cases that have led to the tragic deaths of five babies so far this year. There is a vaccine available to pregnant women, but take-up fell by 20% between 2017 and 2023. So what are the underlying drivers causing women to turn away from the vaccine? We'll speak to an A&E doctor who has looked into possible causes for the drop-off and is currently suffering from whooping cough herself. We'll dig into the ethics of visiting Afghanistan as a holiday destination.

Official UK government advice is you should not travel to Afghanistan. The security situation there is volatile. But tourism is on the rise there and the Taliban are investing heavily in the hospitality sector to try and attract more foreign tourists. We'll hear from a tour guide for a British travel agency who is planning to return there soon and also Afghan journalist Salguna Kagar will join me. How often do you lie? Well research shows most of us lie at least twice a day. Not the big kind, the small kind, the white lies. But can you imagine choosing not to lie in any way, shape or form for two whole years?

Well, author Radhika Sankarni did just that and has made it the central theme of her new children's book. So tell me today, when have you chosen to be honest rather than lie? And how did it pan out? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website as well. And we'll be paying tribute to Dame Shirley Conran, whose death has been announced at the age of 91. A best-selling author who broke publishing records with her debut so-called bonk-buster Lace.

She was also a lifelong champion of women's rights. We'll speak to a close friend of hers and the journalist who she gave her final interview to. All of that on the way. But let's start with Hooping Cough. As you will have heard in the news headlines, there is much concern over the rise in cases of whooping cough in England. Half of the cases seen so far this year have been in the under 15s, with the highest rates in babies under three months of age. Five babies died between January and the end of March this year. Now, the UK Health Security Agency has said a steady decline in the uptake of the vaccine available to pregnant

women is a factor in the rise in cases so question is why are women not getting vaccinated when pregnant to discuss this i'm joined by dr sir liha asan doctor and broadcast journalist welcome saliha we have to say thank you so much for joining us because we know you are currently suffering from whooping cough yourself and even you didn't realize right you didn't realize you had it tell us how you got diagnosed i've been on a journey of discovery so it's been quite something um i work in a knee We see things that come through the door. I started to cough. And like many people, I just thought it's just a cough. It got worse. It was keeping up at night. It was horrendous coughing fits.

I was actually late for some copies because I write for Justine Hancock, my editor at the Daily Mail. And I was explaining, I'm so sorry, I'm late. I've got this horrendous cough and I put it on Twitter and it was actually our own lovely Dr Mark Porter who went back to me and said it might be whooping cough and at that point I thought really and he described what it might be and I thought that's exactly what I'm having paroxysmal coughing fits unable to sleep at night feeling sick from it and then I ended up then going on a journey of diagnosis it was an easy diagnosis because not many so like me other doctors didn't realize it was because like many doctors like me I thought I

can't get it because I have my vaccine as a child. So again, all the journey of discovery, realise that the vaccine that you have as a child wears off after about 10 years, which is really interesting because in the US, they give boosters every 10 years, but we don't do that here. So after 10 years or so, it wears off. There's quite a lot to get into there, which we will, but let's go back to talking about the vaccine for pregnant women and this drop off. Can we sort of directly link what's happening, what we're seeing, the rising cases and tragically, the number of deaths of babies so far this year to that?

Well, whooping cough or pertussis is so contagious. It's highly contagious. And the problem is that people don't realise that they've got it. So they're going to be really really at high risk because those little babies between nought to two months get very sick with it they're at real risk of it. And their protection from it comes from the very safe, highly tested maternal pertussis vaccine that mums can get from as early as 16 weeks of pregnancy right up until 32 weeks. And even then, if they've missed about a 32 week, it's still not too late. Just, you know, the thing that I found clear is lack of knowledge about how deadly and dangerous whooping cough can be. I don't know if you remember, but in the 1980s, there was lots of coverage about how dangerous whooping cough was. I remember it. I was a teenager. I was terrified because I had two little baby sisters and I used to bug my mum and say are they up to date with their vaccines because I was terrified

from the pictures I was seeing um I don't think we're on hopefully I pray we're not on that same sort of route to that period but um what we do have in our armoury right now against this is the maternal vaccine. That came into play in October 2012. So not a long time ago. So October 2012. And immediately after that came in, we saw the rate of baby deaths fall significantly. Unfortunately, at the stage that we're at right now, and I was talking to a consultant epidemiologist from the UK HSA yesterday, and she said to me, unfortunately, with the way things are going right

now with maternal vaccine uptake and because we're in this current surge and it's transmissible we might be looking back to October 2012 figures pre-vaccine and that's a shame. Which is staggering isn't it? What do you think is driving this then? Why are mothers when there is a vaccine available, not taking it? There's many reasons. And the first thing is, it's not a blame thing at all for anyone. It's just, I think you've just got the perfect storm of many factors. Obviously, pregnant mums are rightly concerned about what they put into their bodies when they're pregnant that's absolutely correct and that's normal and natural um there's been

obviously during the covid era and even from mmr we know that they're the scandal with wakefield saga etc that there's been been concern about vaccines that are given to children, for example. But I think there's been a degree of vaccine hesitancy, not totally against vaccine, but vaccine hesitancy across the board, definitely during COVID. And that has hit vaccinations all over the place. And of then it hits the the the this vaccine as well for for mothers um but it's also maybe to do with a lack of understanding of how dangerous this could be for for their child who is born it could be so that there's a lack of awareness. I've spoken to mums who have lost their babies to whooping cough. Some were before the October 12 programme.

I've spoken to a mum in Australia who lost her baby in 2014, nine days old. At that point, Australia didn't have the maternal vaccine. Tragically, Australia bought in the vaccine just days after Catherine Hughes's little baby Riley died. And she looked into it and she realised that the UK had it. And she's been tremendous in her work to raise awareness about it in australia um i just think we don't have that same lack of we don't have that same awareness that we have here about how deadly it can be yes i mean every mother that every mother i've spoken to who has obviously found out the most horrendous way is a massive advocate for the vaccine yes and i wasn't aware of it i had my children before 2012

and as you say it can still affect adults so it's something we need to raise awareness with across the board. What do you think needs to change? We don't want to alarm people here obviously the figures are you know the cases we're talking about are tragic the figures are still low but they're on the rise. What needs to change do do you think i think it is education and reassurance and and just also just the other thing it's not all down to the mums you know the healthcare profession has to take a role in this well this is my point because you was talking about that the campaigns when you were growing up it actually was front and center do we need to see that kind of change i i would like to because it works.

And I think I've been looking at Australia and what they've done and they've really, really gone for it. The awareness amongst the public there is significantly more than ours. And they're up. So just so you know, our vaccine uptakes have gone down to about 59.5 and some parts of London, they gone down to about 59.5 and some parts of london they're down to 36 and those cases are the workplaces are the ones with the worst rates of really sick babies as well um so i think education but education for the public education for mums but education across the healthcare profession as well because i I didn't realise it.

And, you know, if I didn't realise it, I'm not saying that I know everything about medicine, far from it. But colleagues also didn't know about it. But I think it, I mean, we have a lot of alerts coming. We're dealing with a lot of things right now. So, but this is one of the key things that, you know, we need to know. We also need to know how to make sure that every encounter with a pregnant woman is meaningful and we don't miss that opportunity to say have you had your maternal vaccine if not here's how you can do it but rather than then saying i think it's

about because i've been speaking to colleagues as well it's about making it as convenient and as easy as possible um the reason why you can get it uh you know you can there's plans i think it's all it's already underway but the 18 week scan come in for the scan get the jab try and make things as easy and as as accessible to have the vaccine as possible because often m mums, pregnant mums, will have other little children. They'll be busy. They'll be super busy. And sometimes it's just down to the fact that it was just one more appointment that they just couldn't make.

Yeah, if you've got to book something else in, it's something that you may think kind of drops off your radar. Let's just end the interview where we began. You were talking about the fact that you have whooping cough right now and that your immunity wanes after 10 years. Is that something else we need to look at, that immunisation? Maybe we need boosters as adults too. Yeah, and it's interesting because I have asked the UK HSA,

I've asked NHS England about it, because I'm staying on this with Justine. We're working, we're staying on whooping cough. Because I think the booster question is important. It's because it's a triple, one answer I've been given, it's a triple vaccine. It's not pertussis alone. It's diphtheria, tetanus and polio as well within the mix. So is it right to get those extra bits thrown into the vaccine if you don't need them?

However, in the US, like I said, it's offered every 10 years. It's a highly contagious disease. It's easily spread. It's very difficult to diagnose. And if it reaches the child under two months, it can kill them. So maybe it's a discussion to be had. Radhika, people are already getting in touch with the programme on this. Tonya says, my husband and two daughters also have the most horrendous coughs, keeping them up at night and even vomiting from excessive coughing. It lasted for ages two to three months and we only realised what it was afterwards. My daughters were both vaccinated at birth, but clearly aged 12 and 15, it wore off. So it's recognising...

And that's what we're seeing. Yeah. Yeah, we're seeing that. And the problem is often siblings might even have a little baby brother or sister at home and things like that that's why the maternal vaccine is so important I mean the maternal vaccine is is is is an incredible vaccine the mother takes a vaccine produces antibodies they cross across the placenta and then they act like a shield to the baby when it's born. And it's wonderful. And it's so safe.

I've spoken to paediatric consultants who have had it since October 12th, have had it and will advocate it. They put their money where their mouth is. It's so safe. It's a lifesaver. Thank you so much for joining us. And we really hope that you feel better soon. We do appreciate you talking to us when you have whooping cough yourself. Lovely to chat to you. That is Dr. Salia Hassan who joined us and she has a whooping cough herself. Do get in touch with your experiences of 84844 on the text. Thanks to everybody who's got in touch so far. Now, would you ever consider Afghanistan as a holiday destination?

Official UK government advised is you should not travel to Afghanistan. The security situation there is volatile, but foreign tourism is on the rise there. And that is despite the Taliban regime's severe restrictions on women's rights, collapsing economy and poor infrastructure. Numbers are not huge, but they are going up. In 2022, there were 2,300 foreign tourists. Last year, 7,000. And the Taliban is keen to do more. They've started training hospitality professionals and claim the country is safe for foreigners. Everyone is welcome and treated equally, and that includes foreign women. With me now, Sasha Heaney. She went to Afghanistan in February as a tour guide for a British travel agency that specialises in unusual destinations.

She's going back next month, this time on her own, to visit parts of the country not covered by tours. Sasha, welcome to the programme. Hello. And we're also joined by Saguna Karr, an Afghan journalist with the BBC. Good morning. Morning. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sasha, let's start with you. Why Afghanistan? So, Afghanistan... Can you move a little bit closer to the microphone perfect thank you so afghanistan was actually on my radar for quite a long time but because of obviously the political unrest um i wasn't able to go so the company that i travel that i work for they like you say they specialize in quite niche and unusual travel and afghan is one of the places. So I was asked to lead a tour in February, which I was very eager to do. Yeah, I mean, I was apprehensive, obviously, being a woman and leading a tour there.

There was a small group, there was me and two other women as well, that went. And yes, I mean, when we were preparing for the the tour it was the first tour guide as a female that we've ever sent there and it actually went really well surprisingly well um there's a big kind of a market out there for that sort of travel at the moment um so when we were out there the women on our group had to be very kind of conservative with our dress and our local guide briefed us on how we can behave and how we should act out there. But as long as you kind of follow the rules of the place, we had no problems at all. Did you feel safe? Yes, entirely.

There were points where, I don't know, I suppose the Taliban, the presence is so huge out there, you can't miss it. It is everywhere. So that's quite, I don't know, it's quite overpowering, I suppose. But in terms of personal safety, all of us felt safe at all points. Because the government advice, the Foreign Office advice here is don't go there. It's extremely dangerous. Border crossings may not be opened there's a heightened risk of British nationals being detained there if you are a British national and you are detained in Afghanistan you could face months or years of

imprisonment a foreign officer's ability to help you is extremely limited and support in person is not possible in Afghanistan did you I mean obviously you balanced up all of these risks. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, we went to places that we knew were currently safe. I mean, at the moment it is volatile, hence why it's red in the FCO. But there's no major issues out there at this moment in time. So when you go out there, you need a huge amount of paperwork. It's not a place that you just turn up and are able to just go into the country and travel there's a lot of preparation beforehand you know it depends what province you

go to you need paperwork you need a local guide as well to you know just to make maintain your safety and if you're the group to maintain the safety of everyone there um a woman can't travel by themselves they're definitely not you need to not. You need to have a male escort. And the country itself then, because obviously through a Western gaze, the only time we ever kind of alight on Afghanistan is because of the conflict, because of the war, because of foreign troops involvement,

our troops involvement, what is going on. Obviously on this programme, we talk a lot about the plight of women there, but the country itself, what do you find so special about it? The country is magnificent. It's honestly one of the best, you know, most amazing places I've been to, hence why I'm going back. Just on so many levels. I mean, geographically, where it's positioned, it's absolutely stunning.

The people are just so kind and really welcoming, actually. And what I took from this trip was how sort of appreciative that the local people were to see like tourists there, especially women. I mean, they're very surprised to see us. I mean, you don't you don't see women out. Unfortunately, it's very restrictive for women out there. But they just were really happy, actually, that we went out there and we dedicated the time to hear their story and to hear their side. They know that we've got a very skewed view of the country. What we see on the news, what we read in the papers is, you know, it's pretty biased, to be honest. Whereas you go out there and these people are just trying to get on with their everyday life.

They just. But as you just said yourself, you don't see women. Women aren't there. And I guess a lot of people listening to this will say that's what maybe would make me uncomfortable about going there to kind of put money the way of a regime that is inflicting this on women. How do you square that? Yeah, no, I'm hearing you, definitely. And kind of a struggle I had with that as well, sort of going out there. I'm like, you know, very repressive society for women.

But again, I just wanted to see with my own eyes how it was out there. You know, and unfortunately it is, you know, women's rights is terrible. It really is. But, you know, there are women out and they, the ones that will talk to you, they'll kind of, they're so, again, so appreciative that you're there to listen and that they know that I'll take their stories home and I'll tell them, you know, when I get back. And, yeah, and hopefully promote to them. It's a very deserving country to be travelled. It really is.

Let's bring in Saguna Narka,agal afghan journalist with the bbc what the taliban are trying to do to get more tourists to come in and obviously more tourists are going there what is behind that well it's a it's a country every country needs tourism in afghanistan unfortunately over the past years over the past years, insecurity has been such a big issue that has affected tourism. Even before the Taliban, the government was trying to promote tourism, but it was very, very difficult for Afghans. It was difficult to travel outside Kabul, outside the capital. I have been to Afghanistan so many times for work trips. It was very, very hard for me to go.

And I must say I'm jealous that you have been there recently and you have seen maybe most of the places that I, as an Afghan, have never been able to go because growing up it was insecure. When the war started, I left Afghanistan. It was insecure. When the war started, I left Afghanistan. It was insecure. I never was able to go outside Kabul that much. The only time I remember going outside Kabul during my childhood was during the war, when the war became very severe in Kabul. So we had to travel to North Afghanistan. So it was like that. Life has been like that. And behind the motives of Taliban, I think it is,

obviously it's a country, it needs to run, it's an economy, there is a system, there are millions of people living there. So they are trying to get maybe like income from that. It is a beautiful country.

It is amazing in terms of people welcoming you if you're a foreigner. Afghan people are very, very generous, hospitable. And it is not like a country like as a foreigner, you will not be welcome to a village. If you go to outside Kabul, you will be welcomed as a guest. Whoever you are, from whatever religion you are, from whatever color you are. There are not people stuck with those kind of issues. So it is a beautiful country. Why not? I don't see any restrictions in this terms of tourism promotion

by the Taliban. It's your homeland, I guess. And that's a horrible irony, isn't it? That this is, you've probably seen more of the country in the last couple of years than Saguna has been able to. I mean, would you consider going back as a tourist? Is that a way of you seeing more of your own country? I would love to go and see my family first, you know, my cousins who I haven't seen for years because of the insecurity. I would love to go. But at the moment, I will not consider it for who I am. I will definitely be dealt or welcomed differently to what Sasha has been, because she's a foreign woman. If I go, I go as an Afghan woman. I'm sure I can.

I have spoken to my cousins and they say, like, oh, come, there is no security problem. My friends have been to visit their families. They haven't had any issues as a visitor, as a family visit. You're welcome. My cousins went last month during the school holidays. So they had no problem in going to Afghanistan. I personally don't feel safe for who I am and, you know, what I do. And also, like, it's just a, it's a very, it's a dilemma for me. What I

see in the news, what I hear on both sides of, like even when my friends went and they were saying like oh it's so safe now, you don't feel scared in Kabul for losing your mobile or losing your life for a mobile smugglery or somebody attacking you because

you have an expensive mobile. It's secure now in terms of how men in a conservative society see women on the street. It is different now because you don't see many women, but I questioned them. I said, but a lot of the girls that are living there are not able to go to school. They say, yeah, that is the only problem that the Taliban have at the moment because comparing to three, four years ago when the government was, the republic was in place, it was so insecure.

There were suicide bombings. There were kidnapping. And now those things have stopped. There are some bombings at the moment, but it's not as much as it was before. So it for me as a person, as a woman, as an Afghan woman, it is a dilemma to choose whether I would go back or not. But you would say, even despite the fact that the Taliban are running this two track regime, where women don't have the same rights, who are under threat,

you would say that it's still worth taking that risk, worth going? I like people going and seeing my country. I like it. It is a country millions of people are living. And in terms of restrictions, we must remember that Afghanistan has always been a male-dominated society. Even before the Taliban, when I went to Afghanistan, I had to cover myself. We had male drivers. It is not a free country for women. It has never been a free country. And some women, some younger generation have told me that the freedom that we saw in the last 20 years came with the foreigners, with the US. And when they left, it went back to what Afghanistan was. So what the Taliban are making rules like traveling on your own is not possible for women. Women did travel in Kabul into closer areas, closer provinces. But in terms of life for

women in villages and in the larger communities, it was almost the same. Yes, nothing much. Yeah, nothing much has changed. But, nothing much has changed. But now the problem is, or the big issue for Afghan women is that it's become part of a system. It's announced by a government that you are not allowed to go to school. We don't have a legal system where women are present. We don't have a judge anymore, a female judge. We don't have a female solicitor anymore working on women's cases. We don't have women in offices, in most offices, in crucial infrastructure which we had. It became vibrant in the last 20 years. Final word to you then, Sasha. I know

there's an example of when you were on the tour and somebody's headscarf blew off and the Taliban gave quite a hard time to the person, the man who was running the tour. There is that risk, isn't there? I mean, you can, I guess on the one hand, you can say, this is good and you hear everything Sargunar has said and all the kind of reasoning that you've made. But then you see flashes of it and you see how people get treated, how men get treated as well.

That must have left you feeling quite uncomfortable oh definitely it was very affecting place i have to say probably one of the most affecting places i've ever been you know um and yeah to see it in like the day-to-day life of how you know it's so regimented and yeah that that example actually was was really hitting for something so i don't know so what we were classed as quite menial was a really big thing out there. Yeah. Well, it's been an absolute insight. And thank you so much, both of you, for coming into the studio here at Woman's Hour.

I really appreciate you giving us your time. Fantastic talking point there. You had Sasha Heaney there, who went to Afghanistan in February, is going back. And Zaguna Gahar, Afghan journalist as well. Thank you both very much for your time. Lots of you getting in touch on this. This text says,

how can foreign women go on holiday to a country that treats its own women so badly? How can anybody go there on holiday in all good conscience? Many other views as well coming in. We'll read them out. Text me 84844. Thank you both very much indeed.

Now here's a question. How often do you lie? We did a special programme here on Woman's Hour last year about lying and research shows that on average we lie about twice a day. Most of these lies are white lies, but what would happen if you didn't lie at all? Not telling any lies even a white lie that is the subject of a new children's book by a

journalist and author Radhika Sankarni called The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. Radhika herself hasn't told a lie for two years and it had a markable impact and Radhika joins me in the studio now. Hello. Hi. This is fascinating. Lots of people getting in touch with this already. Why did you decide not to lie for two years? So the truth is that I had been lying for years without really realising. If you'd asked me, are you a liar? I never would have identified in that way. I just thought I was a normal, nice person trying to do my best in the world. But a couple of years ago,

I started doing a little bit more inner work and I started having therapy and my therapist called me out and he was like, you know, you're lying to a lot of people in your life. And I was like, no, I'm just being a nice person. I'm protecting their feelings. And he was like, that is lying. And I kind of realized in that moment, I'd become a bit of a people pleaser. And so often to protect people and not make them feel bad, I was ending up doing things I didn't want to do, you know, going on hen do's, going for dinner with people I wasn't really close to anymore, even taking on some work because I felt like I should to not upset people. And in the end, I realized this is all lying. And it was a really big moment for me. And I realized I don't want to

live my life like that anymore. What kind of impact when you have that revelation? What kind of impact did you discover it was having on you doing all of that people pleasing? I was really shocked. Because it's like, you know, in my head, I think in our society, we're conditioned, particularly as women, I think, to think that, you know, people pleasing is a good way to be. And when I started talking to my friends about it, a lot of them had the same reaction as me, like, well, that makes you a good person. And it was a lot of undoing in my mind, like kind of unconditioning to kind of realize, no, this is lying. It means I'm not being truthful to my friends, to my family, to my loved ones, but also to myself. And that was a real shock because I

think for so long I'd been lying. I didn't even realize who I was or what I really wanted, what I actually wanted to do. I just went into the habit of saying, yeah, sure, to please that person. Right. So what kind of things did you start to tell the truth about and how did it go down? Yeah. So I started by doing this like really dramatic vow. And I was like, okay, I'm quite an extreme person. Sometimes I was like, okay, if I've been lying my whole life, I'm going to stop. And I'm going to be completely honest, like no white lies, nothing. And it was crazy, because at first I realized, wow, I lie all the time. Now that I was trying not to lie, even a text like, oh, do you fancy a coffee? If I didn't want to go for that coffee with that person in the past, I would have said,

oh, sorry, I'm not free. But now I'm like, oh, wait, I am free. I just don't want to go. How do I say that? So I'd be there hours crafting messages like I'm not actually available, you know, thinking, OK, that can also mean emotionally available and it was hilarious at first when I started to realize this is you know this is so um kind of you know seeped into every aspect of me even things like how are you fine thanks am I fine or you know it doesn't mean I have to overshare with everybody but I can just be like oh you know not so great today I don't have to just because I'm honest tell everyone my entire life story yes but when you think like you know I have to be honest with everything I say today it does make you realize how much we lie without even thinking so somebody asks you do you fancy a coffee and you basically no I don't is

that what you just text back well no thanks I was trying so hard to not be rude and that's been the biggest struggle like learning to tell the truth and be honest without being rude and I've realized you know there are ways of saying this I would just say like um I think I think sometimes I can just avoid it and just say oh not today but I can get in touch um another time if I'm available or something like that you know just I don't want to be rude isn't that delaying the rudeness for another date though or the honesty rather than the rudeness you know it depends like there are situations where there's no drama I just don't fancy a coffee that day but there have been situations with some friends who maybe we hadn't been so close anymore and there were honest conversations that needed to be had I think you know we all maybe have those friends or I definitely

used to where you'd go for dinner a couple of times a year but you're not actually friends anymore you're just trying to keep it alive out of nostalgia or history and so yeah obligation obligation and that sense of should you know I should see them and so with a couple of friends it did lead to having really really honest conversations where you know with one friendship we both acknowledged we'd been friends since school but actually we'd just grown apart and there was a lot of love between us but really like we just weren't that close anymore. And so we both had a really honest chat and decided to stop hanging out. And if it changes in the future, then.

How did you start that conversation? That's absolutely. There's so many people listening. Yes. I know what she's saying. But how did you start that conversation? So I think, yeah, I called her. I called her in a response to one of those questions of, you know, wanting to do something together. And I I just said, I want to be really honest with you. And I was trembling.

It was the scariest thing I've done, especially as, you know, a former people pleaser to do this. But she heard me and she was like, you know, thank you for being honest. The truth is, I feel the same way. And that's what I think we all forget. We think, oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings but what if they don't want to hang out with you either, you know, and they're also doing it from a sense of obligation and should. I just think honesty can change everything. It just allows us all to be so real

about who we are, what we actually want and we might find out that we didn't really know people as well as we thought and actually we can't predict how they'll respond. They might have a really similar, you know, thing going on internally. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. How do you feel now, two years down the line? I feel so good. That's why I wanted to write this children's book, because I wanted to inspire,

well, that sounds a bit dramatic, I don't know, encourage a new generation to think about this. Because, you know, I think I learned these habits of lying at a really young age that sense of sometimes even at school you know oh I don't want to tell my parents I'm struggling because I don't want to worry them I don't want to be honest about this because I don't want to hurt this person you know I learned those messages really young and yeah my life has changed so much being honest I feel so much closer to my friends a lot of people actually say to me oh I can just I can just trust you now. Even if it's about something silly, like, oh, do you like my new outfit? They know I'll give them an honest response. So they come to me craving that honesty. I feel closer to my friends. I feel more aligned with all my work projects because I've even been

honest in the workspace. So it's just meant that if I'm struggling with a project or if I'm just not really enjoying it, it's kind of come out in a polite, professional way. It's come out and it means that I'm now working on things I love rather than things, again, where I felt like I should. And but most importantly, I know myself now because I'm honest. I know what I like, what I actually want to do. I don't always have to convey things in that moment in the most, you know, open way. I can save it for later. I can, you know, I've learned I don't need to overshare. But at least I know how I'm feeling. And yeah,

that's what I wanted to inspire young children to do with this book, The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. You know, it's about a little 12 year old who was also a people pleaser. And she gets stuck in this magic bangle. And she can't tell any more lies. Again, she has to tell the truth. And it's all around what does that do to her life? You know, get her in trouble a little bit yes but does it also you know lead her to be more honest with her family her friends and end up having a much more fulfilled connected life sounds but i want that magic bangle i need help with this um priya is your main character is indian two of her friends in the book are chinese and you speak a lot in the book about that link between Asian cultures and not necessarily telling the truth why is it more pronounced in Asian cultures do you think? So I'm British Indian and you know I can't speak for

everyone but that was my lived experience that I felt that a lot of things you know I'd get these messages from relatives the community of oh don't air your dirty laundry. You know, blood is thicker than water. And this sense of keep it in the family and keep it to yourself. And my two best friends growing up in London were also, you know, Asian, Chinese, and they really resonated with this. So I guess it's just a message I wanted to put in the book because I think it's hard for all of us to tell the truth and be radically honest. But I think it's really difficult sometimes if you're from a community where you're getting this pressure of, you know, keep it quiet, you know, about anything from mental health to a divorce or, you know, loads of those themes crop up in the book, even though it's a children's book. Yeah, I think it's really important to talk about this. Lots of people getting in

touch on this one. I'd rather be nice. Sometimes people shouldn't really important to talk about this. Lots of people getting in touch on this one. I'd rather be nice. Sometimes people shouldn't be forced to live our reality. What do you say to that, Texter? I mean, for me, reality is reality. You know, it is what it is. Like either you're being, you're living in reality or you're lying. And I also think we don't really give people credit, you know, for how they could respond.

We assume people are going to be really upset, but we might not be the centre of their worlds. You know, they might actually be OK with hearing the truth. Yeah. OK. Anonymous text. I tell a few white lies to smooth things over, but I don't tell big lies. My partner is unusual, I think. He hates tiny lies, won't say he's ill to get out of an arrangement, for example. I always admired this until I found out he'd had an affair. it turned out that he had been telling quite a lot of big lies it was extra shocking and hard to deal with because his reluctance to tell white lies had lulled me into a false sense of security that's a real shame sorry to hear that but I guess maybe there was distraction or projection going on there I'm not a liar. I never lie about the small things,

but obviously there was something else going on there. Yeah, definitely. And I think this is a big thing with lying. You know, it's just, yeah, it's so hard to trust people sometimes. And I'm in a relationship now where we have a policy of radical honesty. He knows I don't lie and he's been inspired by this.

And he's like, you know what, me too. And, you know, obviously how much can we trust each other? But we both really do. And I feel like it's made our relationship so much safer because we just know how much can we trust each other but we both really do and I feel like it's made our relationship so much safer because we just know we don't lie to each other about anything I'm interested to know then when you start on this policy and if you've been a people pleaser all your life and you start to say I'm going to actually be flat out honest about situations in work on my personal life when you get a negative reaction

how do you stay the course because obviously when you were so programmed as many women are to play that role all your life how do you not overthink over worry about the impact that that honesty will have and how does that not change your behavior going forward so honestly the first year I keep saying the word honestly but honestly the first year was so hard and that came up the whole time and I I you know even that phone call I had with that friend I was trembling beforehand I felt super nervous and terrified but I have found that you know practice they say it takes 30 or 40 days or something to break a habit and I've been doing it for two years now I've relaxed into it and I'm I think I'm starting to kind of erase that sense that that conditioning and that's why I feel so

much more relaxed now and just so much happier that's why I want you know other people to think about this and maybe they don't have to do it as radically as I have but maybe I think all of us you know could be a bit more honest in at least some aspects of our lives it's like learning a different language yeah it really is so give us a few finally give us a few pointers on say phrases to start a conversation just do you see what I'm getting at the kind of how you frame it how you go into that conversation it could be anything do you start with you as the subject of it or so they don't feel threatened? Totally I think it's important to not make it sound like you're blaming, you know, and the whole thing about this is I'm taking responsibility for myself.

So it is about me. It's about how I feel. And it doesn't matter, you know, it's my experience. It doesn't mean it's the truth for them as well. So I always say, you know, I just wanted to check in and have a chat because something's come up for me

or I'm feeling this. I'd love to talk to you about this. I just wanted to, you know, share my experiences and see where you are at. I just wanted to, you know, share my experiences and see where you are at. So it's also always giving that person space to say their piece as well,

not making them feel, you know, pushed into a corner or threatened. Have you ever been offended back? Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, we're all humans, right? I still get hurt. It's just that I know that at least now

the truth is out there. And that, you know, that makes me feel so much better just knowing that we're not all hiding. The And that, you know, that makes me feel so much better just knowing that we're not all hiding. The thought of a friend lying to me makes me feel so much worse than them saying something quite difficult to me. Honestly, it's been, honestly, I'm doing it now.

It's been absolutely fascinating. And your book again, just remind us what it's called. The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. It was out yesterday for children eight plus. Brilliant. Radhika Sankarni there, The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. Thank was out yesterday for children eight plus. Brilliant. Radhika Sankarni there, The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. Thank you so much for joining us.

Kathy says, what a fabulous discussion about lying. The friendship thing is something I've struggled with for some time. I've had to be honest with one friend in particular when I realised that we really didn't have that much in common anymore. Thanks for sharing this.

It makes me feel so much better about my people pleaser days being behind me. So there you go, Redika. Already Kathy is a convert. She's tried out your practice. Thank you so much for coming to the Woman's Hour studio. Now, let's end today's program with the news, the sad news we heard last night that the author and journalist Dame Shirley Conran has died at the age of 91. Following the breakdown of her first marriage to designer Terence Conran, Shirley turned to writing in order to support her two sons, Sebastian and Jasper. She wrote for the Daily Mail and in 1968 she became the women's editor and launched Female, the newspaper's first dedicated women's section. Shirley later became

the woman's editor for The Observer and her influential 1975 non-fiction book Superwoman coined the phrase that became a feminist slogan, life's too short to stuff a mushroom. She went on to write Lace, the international steamy bestseller published in 1982. And Shirley appeared on Woman's Hour to celebrate the book's reissue back in 2012.

Excuse me, Jenny Murray asked her why she wrote Lace. I wrote a series of self-help books for women. The first one, Superwoman, was about minimising housework. And the second one was How to Have Children Under Five and Stay Stain. And very practical, all my books were. And the third one was about the menopause, which I was just about to enter, so I thought I'd research it. And the fourth one, I realized that what was necessary was a book for teenage girls about sex, because women were very ignorant of sex, and sometimes ashamed. And above all, they lacked self-confidence. And I think sex was seen at that time, certainly by men, as an in-out, in-out business.

And they assumed that with women it was an out-in, out-in business. And of course, all we women know that isn't so. So there was a huge ignorance. And I started doing research on it. And I had about 18 months' research. So I would take along a friend, a friend of mine from the Daily Mirror. And her job was to sit with me. We both clicked our tape recorders on as we sat down.

Anyway, there we were listening to Britain's top sexologist spouting away. I might say she was a woman. And she suddenly said, and of course you pee through your clitoris. And you could hear Mileva and me on our mics going, eh? So how did

that become lace? Well, she looked very irritated and said, if you don't believe me you can go along to Grey's Anatomy in the bookshop and find out. So we did and of course we found she was wrong and Grey's was right. I then decided I got

a bit fed up writing non-fiction books. I thought it would be more fun for me. Also I got to the point where I wasn't making money out of writing books and I thought I would have to go back to business. So I thought, one more book, I'll give it one last try, and every writer wants to write a novel, so I'll do it as a novel. Now, it opens with a horrific description of an illegal abortion, a 13-year-old girl in 1963. Why did you begin it with that scene? Well, because at that time,

that was happening to a lot of girls. And really, it was a book about women's issues. I could describe them as women's interests at that time. And it was about giving birth and what you do, you give away your baby or you get rid of your foetus and so I felt there was a lot to be discussed there and basically I had two aims one, I wanted to write a book that would make you forget you had influenza and I also wanted to get a book that would make you forget you had influenza. And I also wanted to get a book that would reach teenage girls. And, of course, a lot of people were very splattery about Lace.

This is ridiculous. This should be banned. No teenage girl should read this. And, of course, I was delighted because I knew that would make them read it. They were reading it in great numbers, obviously. In the new edition, you've admitted that the characters are based on real people and Pagan is your friend Phoebe. What had happened to her that came out in the book? Well, I would say 90% of the book is my life, so it's true.

And what is untrue is the plot. But then, as you know, you've written books yourself, you know that a plot is an idea and it develops through the characters. The characters take hold of the plot. And I really thought that Phoebe, firstly, she did get married to a man in Egypt. We did go to Egypt together.

A lot of it was true. She did have an alcoholic period and she certainly did have a two-year-long love affair with the King of Jordan, who gave me a lot of information for the book, I might say. And Kate is you, I think. The character has a transvestite designer husband. How did your ex respond?

Well, my ex paid a lawyer to read Lace to see if there was anything he could sue me about. And he didn't sue me, but I don't think he had a very good lawyer. What do you think the lawyer made of it, sitting there for hours and hours reading this rather racy book? Yeah, I would think, nice work if you can get it. Two days it takes to read Lace. What difference did the success of Lace make to your lifestyle?

Well, of course, the money made a huge difference. And when Lace hit me, you couldn't disguise the fact that it had sold for a record sum for a first novel in Europe. And it was awful, Jenny. It was awful. Emotionally, it was a disaster, and it took me years to get over it because all my friends were okay. My girlfriends, my close girlfriends, they just thought it was a hoot.

They giggled and laughed and said, can I see your new handbags and things like that. But anybody knew the nice men would run to the other end of the room because they didn't want to be thought fortune hunters and the fortune hunters would come out of the woodwork um it was really the french have a word bouleverse i don't know what it is in english it really means you you are totally dizzy and and unbalanced well i'm joined now by Felicia Bromfield, who after meeting Dame Shirley in 2014,

worked with her at the Daily Mail and became a good friend. Felicia, welcome. Hello. And I know Dame Shirley gave you her last interview when she was on her deathbed. What was it like to be given that honour? Oh, it was deeply moving, actually. I mean, we'd worked together on and off for sort of 10 years. A lot of our conversations were done over the phone,

but we met in person at her supremely stylish flat in Putney in 2014. But to see her, I really didn't know what to expect, knowing that it would be the last time. And just so typically Shirley, I found her sipping a G&T on her deathbed. And she said to me, you can put that in the article because, you know, we've spoken a lot there. In her own words, you can see how much of a powerhouse she was and a real trailblazer and, you know, an iconic feminist. And it started. She had so much fun as well.

It sounds like she did. And she chose female. I mean, you develop this relationship with her. I mean, she was the first female editor to be put in charge of female on the Daily Mail. And she took that very seriously, didn't she? Well, this is it. There's a lot of fun. She always wanted to amuse people, but there was always a serious message. And as she explained to me when I last saw her, she saw her life's work as championing the rights of women.

And she was doing that right up until her last breath. And I mean, that possibly is the most inspiring thing about her. Was that because of what she went through in her personal life early on? Because you see her name and we talk about the huge book sales and lace and superwoman but actually she divorced quite early on in the 1960s and she was left as a single mother with two small children she understood how hard women's lives could be didn't she she truly understood and that she said to me that that that was the worst thing that ever happened to her, but in a way it was the best thing because it led her to champion the rights

of women in a very practical way. She didn't just talk about it. In 1970, she led, as she described it, a torch lit procession to Downing Street to get equal pay for women and succeeded in 1970 with the Equal Pay Act. She then later on, she also said that she spent 20 years making money with her incredible novels, but she then spent 20 years spending that much of that money on this very important cause. She certainly did. I mean, we've been in touch with Eve Pollard this morning, former Fleet Street editor who paid tribute to her saying, I adored her. And she told me about money. I don't think I was her best student, but she always taught me that having financial underpinning gave you freedom.

I mean, she truly understood that, didn't she? And she wanted to spread the message. And she actually launched a free maths money website for young women, didn't she? Yes, she did. It's called Money Stuff. And it's essentially the antithesis of a maths textbook, because she designed the design of it is based on Teen Vogue, American Teen Vogue. But she wanted to appeal to reach, she really wanted to reach girls to teach the maths because she believed maths is money and money is power. And that was her fundamental belief. she used to say to me I want to help women get rich and stay rich equality yes that's emancipation in itself Caroline thank you for texting Caroline says this Shirley Conran Savages got me into reading her book Superwoman

was groundbreaking what a trailblazer thank you Dame Shirley let's talk about Superwoman was groundbreaking. What a trailblazer. Thank you, Dame Shirley. Let's talk about Superwoman then. This is the famous quote, life's too short to stuff a mushroom. And in a sense, I suppose the word Superwoman is kind of now coined as something that people used to say, well, you can't be Superwoman. But she was saying, well, you can be a very capable all-round woman if you're not stuffing mushrooms,

if there's not this ridiculous expectation that you will do all of the trimmings that you know men aren't required to do precisely i mean she said to me that the title of the book was meant to be ironic at the start you know who can be superwoman um but also she we had conversations, especially during lockdown, where she was so acutely aware that women were really taking the brunt of juggling families, homeschooling, working, elderly relatives, all of that. And I think she felt that women are held back by domestic duties and to some extent they still are. Listen, I think this weekend we should all raise a G&T to Dame Shirley Conran. Thank you so much for joining us and our condolences to you, Felicia.

Thank you for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thanks very much. That is Felicia Bromfield who met Dame Shirley in 2014 and went on to conduct the final interview with her. We thank her so much for joining us. And thank you for all your tributes to Dame Shirley as well. That's it for today. Do join me for Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow at four

when the comedian and writer Kiri Pritchard-McLean will be telling us about why she's become a foster carer and music from one of the rising stars on the UK music scene, Rachel Chinneriri. Thank you for joining me. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Dr Michael Moseley and in my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. So which will you try? Maybe playing a musical instrument to boost your brain

power or a spoonful of olive oil to help your heart. How about doing some volunteering to improve your immune system? So to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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