Woman's Hour - Why do Conservatives elect female leaders?

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

As the Conservative Party looks set to elect its third female leader and prime minister, it has left observers and women in other political parties wondering about the secret of their success. The Labour Party have yet to elect a female leader despite having introduced all women shortlists for the 1997 election which returned a record 101 female Labour MPs to the House of Commons, one of whom was Fiona Mactaggart the MP for Slough. She joins Emma Barnett alongside former cabinet minister and MP for Chipping Barnet Theresa Villiers.This year, there have been increasing reports of refugees attempting to travel into Europe by sea, with some travelling by dinghy across the Mediterranean and across the channel into the UK. Last week, the Ocean Viking search & rescue ship rescued 466 women, children and men in 10 rescue operations within 60 hours in the Mediterranean, including two heavily pregnant women and a 3-week-old baby. Emma is joined by Rebecca, a British midwife and medical lead on board the Ocean Viking.Leonardo DiCaprio has been called out for only publicly dating women under the age of 25. It comes as the 47-year-old actor broke things off with his girlfriend Camila Morrone who was 22 years his junior. We discuss why women are responding to the news online with so much humour and mockery with the digital culture commentator Hannah Van-de-peer. Emma also speaks to the relationship psychologist Emma Kenny.Helen Fields is a criminal barrister turned bestselling author. Her latest novel The Last Girl to Die follows private investigator Sadie Levesque as she investigates murder on the Isle of Mull, far off the coast of Scotland.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Hope you're feeling supported as we start the week together. Shopping habits published by John Lewis today seem to show that. Demand for non-wired bras have slumped this year compared to lockdown periods with sales of wired bras and so-called shapewear back in. Now that you know that, let me ask you how politically supported you will feel come 12.30 today

as the new leader of the Conservative Party is announced. It is likely to be Liz Truss, we are told again and again, who takes over tomorrow if she is the winner as the UK's Prime Minister. And yes, while that would make her the third woman to lead this country, the fact still remains that only one woman has won the top job through a general election, as opposed to a coronation by a few after a man has effectively been forced out of office. The country was given Theresa May by the Conservative Party after David Cameron resigned after losing his side of the EU referendum.

And now it may be Liz Truss's turn, after Boris Johnson was forced out by his own colleagues, still with a parliamentary investigation hanging over his head about whether he misled Parliament over lockdown parties at Number 10, an episode which saw the Prime Minister receive a fine from police. Have you heard of the term glass cliff? It was coined by two academics from the University of Exeter in 2003. When women are appointed to senior positions during a time

of crisis politically or in a business or elsewhere, and then their chance of success is perceived as lower. Some dispute that this cliff even exists. Others believe in it. As Liz Truss looks likely to succeed Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, is she standing on such a glass cliff? With an in-tray like no other Prime Minister for some time, some of the newspapers say certainly about what's facing her, is she being set up to potentially fail? Do you believe in this idea of women only being appointed to the very top jobs when things are going horribly wrong? Has that happened maybe where you work? Has it happened to you? How did it play out? The idea of cleaning up some of the mess that has come just before. You can text the programme here. The number is 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website or send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using a different number 03700

100 444. Let me remind you, data charges could apply, so you might want to use your Wi-Fi. Research on gender stereotypes has found in times of crisis that people think that stereotypically female traits are more important in a leader and that stereotypically female traits are more important in a leader and that stereotypically male traits are less desirable. Indeed Liz Truss has made quite the thing of the female stereotype of being a woman who gets things done. I'm somebody in every job in government I've done whether it's the foreign office whether it's a trade I've got things done. I can lead, I can make tough decisions and I can get things done.

And I'm the person who can go into number 10, I can hit the ground running and I can get things done. Well, Theresa May was also a fan of saying, I just get on with the job. Very intrigued to hear your take on this, please, as we are potentially looking at the third female Prime Minister, leader of the Conservative Party to be announced today and formally made prime minister tomorrow.

Also on today's programme, the woman working on a charity-funded rescue boat in the Mediterranean and men dating much younger women as a constant trend in their own lives and other men's lives. Let's get into that. All that to come. But as the Conservative Party looks to elect its third female leader and prime minister, it's left some members and supporters of other political parties wondering how it's done it.

A record four women stood as candidates in this Conservative leadership contest, if you can remember right at the beginning of it, it's been going on some time now, and dominated the balloting through to the last stages. Labour, of course, famously introduced all-women shortlists, a type of positive discrimination for its 1997 election, which returned a record of 101 female MPs, collectively known as Blair's Babes, remember that? But it's failed to get a woman right to the top.

I'm joined now on the line by former Labour MP Fiona McTaggart, who was elected on one of those shortlists as the MP for Slough. Good morning, Fiona. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for being with us. And here in the studio with me is the Conservative MP for Chipping Barnet, Theresa Villiers, who, of course, was previously Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, now on the back benches.

But for who knows, for how long? I mean, Theresa, it's all to play for. Good morning. Good morning. Are you hoping to be promoted in this latest? Well, I'm not sitting by my phone waiting for the call, but you never know. Stranger things have happened. You never know. You did actually back Rishi Sunak, I believe. I did, yes. OK. How are you feeling about Liz Truss potentially taking it?

Well, I think both the candidates are exceptionally talented and able. So if Liz is elected today, as everyone seems to think will be the case, she'll have my full support. And I think she will do a good job as Prime Minister. And it is an achievement to deliver for this country its third woman Prime Minister. Only one, though, has gone to the general election to get the backing of the public. What do you make of that, this idea of women coming in and cleaning up the mess before this idea that was coined by academics, the glass cliff. Is she standing on one? Well, I've not heard that theory before this morning. But yeah, my goodness, it's a tough

job that she faces if as predicted, she is elected today. I think that it just will be crucial to knuckle down and deal with those problems on energy prices. And it is essential that we have news on that as soon as possible. But absolutely, she will have a very, very difficult situation facing her. But do you recognise that you could speak much more freely now on the backbench, as I'm sure. Do you recognise that trend that I'm talking about there? You may not have heard the phrase, but the idea of, and some don't buy into it, so you may not buy into it at all, but the idea is certainly in your party,

we've had two women get the top jobs after men have had to leave unexpectedly. Well, certainly we've demonstrated in our party that we've got lots of able and talented women. That's why we've managed to provide women leaders in the past. I mean, I don't see that as a general trend that women are brought in when a man has messed things up. I think we look to appoint our leaders on merit. And when we had a problem in the past about insufficient representation of women in our parliamentary party and people from minority ethnic communities.

We actively went out and sought out people of talent to encourage them to apply to become MPs. And we're seeing the fruits of that success in our leadership contest with so many of the successful contenders being women and people from ethnic minorities. You may not see it as a trend, but it was not only been discussed in politics, it's been discussed in business and also it was discussed during the pandemic, this idea that women made better leaders during the pandemic. Some argued actually it wasn't that women were better, they just weren't as bad as the men. But that's perhaps another thing to reflect on. And certainly the strongman politics was also being cited during the pandemic. Fiona McTaggart, what do you make of this idea, first of all, before we get to Labour's woes in this area of not being able to get a female leader, the idea of the glass cliff? happened in my party in a way. When you think Ed Miliband resigned and Harriet

Harman had to take over as deputy leader, when John Smith died Margaret Beckett had to take over as deputy leader, there was a kind of thing at which those wonderful women, I mean I think if Harriet had stood in the election she would have become leader of the Labour Party and quite possibly prime minister. But she didn't, partly because she thought that managing the party during the time that there was to be a selection of a new leader was an important way of keeping stability. And I think women often do that. They make sure that the system is working rather than rushing after their prize. And I think that was one of the reasons why Harriet wasn't ever leader of the Labour Party.

And I think it's pretty. Let's bring in, and I'll come back to you in just a moment, but let's bring in Professor Rainbow Murray, who's a professor of politics at Queen Mary University. We're talking about this term, glass cliff. Some have heard of it, some haven't. Some of our listeners getting in touch. What does it mean?

Good morning. Good morning. The basic principle is that when everything's going well, a man wants to be in charge. When things are going badly, you give an opportunity to a woman to come in and either clean up the mess or take the blame for it. And then once things are on a more even keel again, the men come back and want to take over.

So it looks like women are getting a great opportunity to seize power, but that opportunity only seems to come when it's a poison chalice. And so instead of this concept of a sort of glass ceiling above your head, it's actually the idea of standing on the edge of a glass cliff with a whole group of men behind you ready to push you off the edge. Zoe agrees, it seems, with what's happened to her in her life. One of our listeners, she says, my last role was an 18-month contract but cut after five months.

There was no product and huge supply issues. I walked into a mess in the attempt to sort it. I think the concept there is there. But there's one here saying, which I wanted to get your take on as a professor on this, I'm certainly familiar with this concept. The concept of the glass cliff is an insult to strong, determined women like Liz Truss and Theresa May. Both of these women were or are motivated to attain the role of leadership and were confident to make their contribution to British history. Any other interpretation of the reality is cynical and defeatist.

What do you make of that, Professor Rainbow Murray? I don't think this concept is in any way a reflection of the talent or the ambition of the women who find themselves in this situation. I think it's much more a reflection of the men around them who will jostle them out of place when there's a good opportunity available and attractive position, and will step back a little bit when they see that it's not a desirable opportunity. So we see at this point, it is a desirable moment to become prime minister,

and there is a strong male candidate in the running. When it was Theresa May trying to become prime minister, we saw that whilst there were definitely men who wanted to do it, we ended up with two women in the final the final standoff teresa may and andrea leveson partly because it was a poison chalice um the country had just voted on the brexit referendum um abel cameron had had to resign under undesirable circumstances it was a very challenging situation teresa may took it over she took all of the blame for all of the difficulty in managing the Brexit situation. And then when things seemed to be reaching a more promising

point, Boris Johnson swooped in, took all the credit for getting Brexit done, most of which the groundwork had been done by his predecessor. And then Theresa May was ousted. It's interesting, you don't think perhaps it applies here because there's a man in the running for this with Rishi Sunak. It's still seen as a desirable job. Others disagree. Again, another message here that's anonymous, which says, I do think women are put in top roles when there's trouble. It happened at my company. The men gained two things, proof that women can't lead and false proof that they aren't at all sexist.

Once things settle down, a man will grab the reins again. Fiona McTaggart, to come back to you on what Theresa Villiers was saying about the Conservative Party. You know, when you've got more women coming in, as the Labour Party has, and you still can't get a woman to go to the very top. What is it? Is it the history of the unions? Is it something structural? What is it in your party? I think there's misogyny and I'm just heartbroken that we've never had a woman leader. But actually thinking about this idea of the glass cliff and whether things are changing, if you look at the trade union movement, when I was first an MP, there was one woman who is a trade union leader, Brenda Dean at SOGAD. Then Frances O'Grady became the leader of the TUC. And in the last 18 months, she was leader of the TUC, what, 10 years ago? In the last 18 months, we've had two women being elected in two of our biggest trade unions as their general secretaries. And I kind of wonder if the thing is having a pattern of women as a leader is important to be able to uh for a party to get a woman I think the conservative party

is massively nostalgic about Margaret Thatcher and indeed we've seen that in the way that Liz has presented herself you know using exactly the same kind of clothes and so on. Yeah, but Rishi Sunak's also used Margaret Thatcher in some of his speeches. It's not just the woman that cleaves to it, perhaps, as well. And things move on, I suppose, as well. Perhaps not, but I think the Tory party is very nostalgic for Thatcher. It's got a lot of older members who remember those days and feel that it was their glory days. And one of the good things about that

is it gives them a pattern of a strong woman leader, a woman leader who they admired. Some of the rest of us might not have. But nevertheless, I think one of the things that we haven't had is that. And I think it's a terrible pity that the misogyny which exists in every party has then meant that we haven't had a woman leader. Theresa, what do you want to say to that? Nostalgic party, used to it. Can you ever escape a woman leader in your party certainly being compared to Margaret Thatcher? I think having having that Margaret Thatcher precedent does make a difference. It does make it sort of more likely that we have elected women subsequently to this role. There is there is no doubt about that.

So I think that is an advantage that we have in promoting women in the Conservative Party. But going back to what Fiona said, I also do think we need to reflect on some of the problems that Labour has inflicted on some of its women MPs over recent years. And I'm thinking particularly of Luciana Berger, who was subjected to really vile abuse. And in a number of instances, that wasn't just from Labour supporters, it was from Labour members. So I think that atmosphere of sort of online harassment and nastiness is perhaps one of the reasons why Labour have found it more difficult to get women to the very top of their party.

But, I mean, not to trade in any way like this, but there are issues when we look at ongoing allegations about sexual misconduct and bullying at Westminster, many of them about Conservative male MPs, concerning junior female staff and not so junior as well. And, you know, also I remember very recently having Nuz Ghani on here, your colleague, Conservative MP, most senior woman on the 1922 committee that's going to be announcing today the winner of this contest,

talking about the fact that she was trying to get answers about, you know, potential Islamophobia and playing a role in her losing her ministerial position. It's not rosy for all on your side when it comes to women. Oh, I accept that there's there's misogyny across the political spectrum. I think it manifests itself in the media, though, not necessarily just in Parliament. I mean, I remember being asked once whether I was just keeping the seat warm for someone else in the job I was doing,

and I can't believe that that question would have been asked of a man holding a Secretary of State position. So I'm the first to say that there's misogyny out there. But I don't think we've ever seen anything in the Conservative Party on the scale of the venom, which was directed by Labour activists at Labour women MPs under the Corbyn era. What would you say to that, Fiona? I think Theresa is right that politics is a horrible place. Just for the way that you're treated.

I mean, when I was first elected, there were Conservative MPs who used to jiggle their hands as though they were holding your bosom. to kind of make the women who are standing up for themselves in Parliament feel belittled and unconfident. And that still happens. And there still is some terrible behaviour in the House of Commons. And I agree that the way that Luciana was treated was outrageous. And I'm glad that Keir Starmer was really active in making sure that she was properly protected. But that example, I don't think, was actually particularly because Luciana was a woman. I think it was about the degree, a horrible degree of anti-Semitism, which was allowed to breed during the Corbyn era.

Now, for women, politics is a harder place. You get if you look at all the research, women have been taunted, asked the kind of questions that you would never ask a man. And it's hard. But do you see potentially then, sorry to cut across you Fiona, but do you see today then, if it is Liz Truss, even though you are part of the Labour movement, do you see it as a day of potential celebration then? Well, I don't think that it's an enormous celebration. I'm glad that there's a woman and that women are becoming the norm in politics. And I think it will change things. But frankly, I think Rishi Sunak couldn't possibly have won. That's an American visa while he was being our chancellor. And I think, you know, it's kind of.

It was a predictable outcome and the business of politics is what you actually do. And I am not at all excited by the things that I'm afraid Liz Trusser says she's going to do to the country. Well, that part's perhaps not unsurprising in terms of your politics. But, Theresa, I suppose there will be others who do think, even though perhaps they're not of the same political persuasion of Liz, that this is a moment again today, if as expected. And yet, at the same time, we are waiting for more details about plans on cost of living, specifically the energy prices, what Liz Truss is going to do. She

said, talking to my colleague yesterday, Laura Koonsberg, give her a week, and then she'll tell us exactly what's the detail. I mean, do you think that's acceptable? Some people say we need to know now. There's huge concern, there's sleepless nights people are very worried it is as i've said before it's essential that we hear as soon as possible but i think it's it's a reasonable timetable for liz to set out to say that she will announce big plans to help people with the cost of living within seven days and i think within a month a bigger economic package as well i think it's it would be foolish for either of the two candidates to have announced the detail of their policy without actually having been appointed as Prime Minister and gone through the granular detail with the civil servants. We have had some details,

like for instance, she set aside a decade of Conservative policy, tax cuts that help predominantly wealthier people will be kickstarting, she believes, economic growth. Do you agree with her on that, that that's fair? Well, at the heart of what she wants to do, I believe, is to grow the economy to benefit everybody. That's always been part of Conservative... Do you agree with her? She said very clearly yesterday in the same interview that tax cuts that benefit wealthier people are fair. I think there are fair ways in which you can reduce taxes which benefit wealthier people.

I think there is a case for to ensure that we cut taxes in such a way that it grows the economy. That's obviously what Liz wants to do. The crucial thing is to make sure that in doing that, nothing is done which fuels inflation or contributes to excessive borrowing. So you are on board with that because that's the new way of doing things if she's in town. I think you're oversimplifying things. I know that whichever candidate is elected today, they will always have a strong focus on helping those in need. We have a progressive tax system.

No one is suggesting that should change. But there are instances where a radical departure, and she's proud of it. So that's why I'm asking if you're on board with it. I'm not trying to oversimplify it. She talked in quite simple terms about it yesterday. It's interesting just to get your view. Yes, but she's not saying that we should no longer have a progressive tax system. She's just advocating certain tax cuts, which will benefit people who are well off as well as those who are not. Fiona, at this point, with a third potential female leader of this country, again, from the Conservatives, does Labour have to admit that all female shortlists have failed in

some way? If business leaders are trying to learn lessons from this about what to do to get more women up the ladder, now taking a step back, your final thoughts on that? I think that they have succeeded in getting more women engaged in politics. They succeeded in embarrassing the Conservative Party into finding more women who could stand. But still, the majority of women in the House of Commons are Labour, despite the fact that Labour is in opposition. We have more women MPs, basically, than all the rest of the parties. And we have, therefore, got the issue of the women's point of view being an important part of politics, which used to be ignored.

There's still a terrible problem for us in getting a woman leader. And I think it is a problem, and I think it is partly due to the misogyny which exists in every political party. Most political party members are male. Most of them live in the South, even in the Labour Party. And in the Conservative Party, they're overwhelmingly old. I think that's produced the kind of nostalgia for Thatcher that I think is one of the drivers of Liz Truss's election. And I think that we've got to try and change that inside people's heads.

And that's a difficult thing, trying to change what goes on in people's heads. Fiona McTaggart, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you for your time. Theresa Villiers, apparently it's been reported by a couple of the politicos, the political journalists, that Liz Truss, even though not yet in post, has been struggling to fill the Northern Ireland job. Are you interested? You've done it before. Oh, absolutely. I would love to do that role again. Even with the complexities over the Northern Ireland protocol and some of the issues seeming very difficult indeed, to say the least.

I know you're a keen Brexiteer, but that's one of the blocks, apparently. Yes, and there are big issues that we need to resolve. And I'm sure whomever is appointed to that role tomorrow will be focused on resolving the problems with the Northern Ireland Protocol. It's essential that that happens. One more, if I can. It's also being reported in today's Times, Boris Johnson's allies are plotting to immediately send letters to the chair of the 1922 committee to force a vote of confidence in Liz Truss

to get the outgoing Prime Minister Boris Johnson back into number 10. You may not believe it, but have you heard that? Well, I've read it, but I think frankly if it's true, then it's barking mad. That's absolutely the last thing we want to do. We've just had a seven week leadership election.

We all must unite to back whichever candidate is elected today. It's your party. We're all watching in to see what happens. You're in it. It's good for me to be able to ask you. Thank you for your time this morning, Teresa Villiers. There, a message here which says, I'm a man listening with decades of working in competitive industry.

In my experience with the glass cliff notion, it applies to both sexes. It comes down to being savvy in the moment. I've suffered and the glass cliff notion, it applies to both sexes. It comes down to being savvy in the moment. I've suffered and to my shame have kept quiet while others have been urged

over the parapet. Keep your messages coming in about this. We're of course, the news will be coming to you live earlier today with the World at One at 12.30.

You'll be able to hear who the new leader of the Conservative Party and then will be made Prime Minister tomorrow. Could it be, as we we're expecting a third woman to lead the country, to lead the Conservatives. Now a high court challenge against the government's plan to deport some asylum seekers to Rwanda will begin this morning. Several asylum seekers along with the Public and Commercial Services Union and the group groups Care for Calais and Detention Action

are bringing the challenges with the hearing expected to last five days. This is against the backdrop of increasing numbers of channel crossings with 22,557 migrants as of the end of August making the crossing in small boats since the start of the year. More than 15,500 of them since the policy was launched. It is a perilous journey. At least 166 people have died or gone missing in the English Channel since 2014 more than 15,500 of them since the policy was launched. It is a perilous journey. At least 166 people have died or gone missing in the English Channel since 2014.

That's according to the International Organization for Migration. A similar situation is occurring in the Mediterranean. In the first quarter of this year, more than 18,000 have crossed the Med to reach Europe. United Nations estimates that at least just over 1,000 have died or are missing in the whole of the year so far. Someone working to prevent such deaths is Rebecca, a British midwife and medical lead on board the Ocean Viking search and rescue ship. Last week, the Ocean Viking rescue ship rescued

466 women, children and men in 10 rescue operations within 60 hours in the Mediterranean, including two heavily pregnant women and a three-week-old baby. The ship is run by the humanitarian organisation SOS Mediterranean and the International Federation of the Red Cross. It's funded by donations. Rebecca joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on.

And I should say, because we often explain how we refer to people on the programme, I'm only using your first name due to death threats, I believe, that you have received and your colleagues have received as a result of your work. Is that right? Yes, that is right. Unfortunately, it's a very contentious area with some very strong reactions from members of the public. So it is something that we do for our own safety. And members of the public in what way are aggrieved or how do you

know this do they get in touch on social media how does this come about? Yeah so it's mainly on on social media so you can actually see if you go through our feeds a lot of the comments there are really quite strongly reactive to our operation which I must say was a new experience for me coming into this field from my previous experience in humanitarian world. It's two very different reactions to what I do. In what way? So previously before working in the Central Mediterranean, I actually specialised in primarily in active conflict zones. So working in places like Iraq, in Syria, in Tigray, in Northern Ethiopia, in Yemen, Intigray in northern Ethiopia and Yemen where the reaction was much more positive you know people were very enthusiastic and wanting to help

and wanting to be supportive of the people going there whereas when you're working the central Mediterranean I feel like the focus has shifted a little bit more it's something that we've certainly seen in the media in the last seven years, seven, eight years, and also in the international response to this crisis in the central Mediterranean. Right. So, I mean, it is obviously, it has been in the UK, as you all know, a very, very hot topic, and certainly politically, as we've just been discussing, who's going to be the next leader. Could you tell us a bit about a day-to-day life for you and your colleagues, for those volunteering and working?

So it always depends where in the world we are. for example in the last 24 hours we've been docked in taranto um in italy and we've actually disembarked the remaining uh 459 survivors in an 18-hour disembarkation finishing at two this morning um when we join the ship we undergo strict training protocols to ensure that what we're doing is the safest both for us, but also for the survivors that we are rescuing. When we go to sea and we are actively watching and looking and responding to distress cases in central Mediterranean, we'll have a bridge watch going on. So this is members of our staff with binoculars actively looking for boats that might be in distress and we can then undergo rescue operations which the maximum that I've done is you know six in

less than 36 hours even on this previous patrol we did five in sort of like a 12-13 hour period and that period of actively rescuing people that are in distress can be very variable in length. You know, we've rescued 555 people in a matter of 30 hours, or it can go longer, it's always responding to the needs. Then once we either need to go north because of medical cases, or for example, there aren't open cases in the area, we switch into something called a standoff phase. At this time, what we're doing is we're caring for the survivors. We are providing medical care, we're providing basic needs of access to clean water, access to food, making sure that they are safe on board, because of course a ship is a temporary shelter. It's not a safe place. It is only designed for a short

amount of time, and the amount of survivors we have can vary from 100 up to almost 600. And this is something that we've seen that has changed. It used to be that this standoff phase where we are actively appealing to European states for a port of safety, it used to be quite short and this has been getting progressively longer. And of course, under international maritime law, rescue is actually only complete when those people have been disembarked in a place of safety so some of these rescues now for these survivors are going for eight ten days that they have not been assigned a port of safety and there are very strict legal

requirements from UNHCR from the international community they set very clear rules about what is defined as a port of safety. So your vessel is going alongside those who are in trouble and saving them? Yes, so we have what we call a mothership. It's quite a large ship, but we also have three fast rescue boats and they're called RIBS, rigid hull inflatable boats. So when we are within proximity of a distress case, they're launched into the water with a specialised search and rescue team that go alongside the vessels in distress. And they are bringing the people from that unseaworthy boat where their life is in imminent danger.

And we were told different things. I mean, again, I know I'm talking about the Mediterranean here as opposed to the channel, English channel. But we're told different things about the number of men and the number of women. Could you give a picture of how many of those that are being rescued are women and children? Well, the thing I always direct people to that is that there's a reason that we employ a midwife on board. You know, if it was all men and young, fit, healthy men, they wouldn't employ a midwife on a small space to be there.

You know, in my time here, there has always been women, children and families on board. Even in this last patrol patrol we had three pregnant women um and a number of others i'm sorry the number exactly escapes me right no no that's that's fine it was just to try and get a sense because you are a midwife so that's why i wanted to understand what you're doing and how your role plays in are you are you specifically only with women or are you dealing with other situations because it's all hands on deck, literally? Absolutely, it is all hands on deck.

Unfortunately, one of the big jobs of a midwife on board a search and rescue vessel is dealing with survivors of sexual violence, so trying to provide them comprehensive care. It's something that we see incredibly commonly, not just amongst women, but also amongst the men and children. So that is a huge part of our job but it is absolutely true we do specialize in women's health so we care a lot for the women but also particularly on this

previous patrol the medical needs were completely overwhelming and we are only a four-person team so when you've got 459 people all in need of medical care after at times up to 10 years in arbitrary detention in Libya, you need to be all hands on deck to try and provide them with access to care that they haven't had for so long. Where are the women that you're caring for? Where are they trying to get to? So actually, it varies. I've heard a lot of people that actually were just desperately trying to get out of Libya. That was their main purpose was they weren't actually aiming to get to Europe. They just wanted to escape from the detention and the horrific levels of violence that they were experiencing in Libya.

People at times have actually been trafficked to Libya. So the only way to get out is by going north. If they go back, they end up being trafficked back to Libya again. So most of them are actually just searching for a safe place and an escape. And do they talk to you? Are they able to talk to you? I mean, I imagine language can be a barrier. Absolutely. We do have a very multicultural team, so we always try and ensure that we have a wide variety of language skills within the team.

Unfortunately, my language skills are not the best, but for sure we do have a lot of women that speak English as well. The main languages that they speak are English, French and Arabic. And so ensuring that we have a way of communicating with them and also offering them a safe space to talk to us. You know, I've had people say to me that we're the first ones that have cared what's happened to them in a very, very long time. But just showing them that we are there, we can support them, and also giving them a place to talk to us and the opportunity of further medical care and attention on land as well. For those who are listening who struggle to understand and have sympathy, to be blunt, because you mentioned right at the beginning, you know, some of the very strong

negative reaction your work has received. For those who are in that position and just don't understand why you would risk your life, why you would get on these, sometimes dinghies, very difficult vessels to even sail that are terribly unsafe, what would you say to them having had some of the conversations that you've had? As in why do these people cross? Yeah, what would you say to those who struggle to understand and struggle to have any sympathy? Well, the thing that I would say is, as I said before, I've worked in a variety of humanitarian contexts in some of the places that

the people on board actually coming from. And at certain times, even though I was there with big organisations that were looking after me, the fight or flight instinct kicks in so strongly that just every single fiber of your being is screaming at you to try and get to safety. You know, I work in a very specific field and I have lost loved ones in active war zone. And what I would say to them is just, you know, look around you at your friend group, at your family, you know, your mother, your father, your younger brother, and ask yourself what you would do to keep them safe and you know also ask yourself what would drive a woman that had a cesarean section eight days previously to get into an incredibly small boat and try and cross the Mediterranean you've

seen a woman in that position absolutely um at the end of last year we had two women that were in both within a month of having had their babies and both of them had had C-section. So being a midwife in the UK, you know, I care for women up to, you know, four weeks after C-section. And these women got into this boat with that tiny baby and were at sea for a very long time before we were able to find them and rescue them. And those two were coming from? They were coming from Central Africa.

And the reason for their journey was it to escape something in particular? So they had fleed from their home country due to war and they had actually been in detention in Libya facing an extreme level of violence for over a year. Both of them had been in arbitrary detention and so they were just trying to escape and get to a place of safety. They had already tried to get to one by leaving their own country that had been torn apart by war. And again, they had been caught up in another cycle of violence. How long are you going to do this for, do you think? I think that's a question my mother would like to know the answer to.

Yeah, she rang me earlier and I took the call. For me, I mean, the reason that I do this is actually i'm a product of my family i was very aware of medical situations overseas if this happened you know in the worst case scenario something like this happened in the uk where i was in desperate need of help i would want someone to help me and i just want to be able to do that for others um so i would like to continue doing it as long as i can and to help as many people as i can because that's all i would ask ask for. And I think that's all anyone wants is for someone to help. Rebecca, thank you for talking to us today. Thank you for having me. A midwife there on a rescue ship that's an insight perhaps you don't get very often. So we wanted to make sure we brought that to you today. Now, men and

younger women, shall we discuss? You may have a strong view already. I might not need to say anything else. But this time it's because of one Hollywood actor. A certain Leonardo DiCaprio has inspired some women to respond recent breakup with his now ex-girlfriend, the model Camilla Moroney, who recently turned 25. Women have taken to social media in their droves to share their hot takes. Like this from Sally. She says, maybe Leonardo DiCaprio feels bad for all the women who can't rent a car until they're 25 and is actually a really good guy. Did that ever occur to you? Keenan chimes in to say the girl Leonardo DiCaprio will dump when he's 72 was born today. Katie, Leonardo DiCaprio is actually dating all the under 25s he possibly can to spread the word about climate change to those who will be most impacted. We know he's a keen climate change

campaigner and educator. His dating history was also, you may remember this, put in the spotlight at the Golden Globes in 2020 when he was mocked by the host, Ricky Gervais. Once upon a time in Hollywood, nearly three hours long, Leonardo DiCaprio attended the premiere and by the end his date was too old for him. joining me now uh hannah van der pier who wrote a piece was moved to write a piece about this uh this development this news and the relationship psychologist emma kenny hannah good morning i'll come to you first good morning thank you for having me what did you want to say well i just i'm i'm baffled at the absolute explosion of memes that the internet has seen this weekend. It's, I mean, I'm quite chronically online. I'm on the internet 24-7. It's like nothing I've ever seen before.

It's just, it's been so much. And sort of as the weekend has gone on, like as the joke has kind of become a bit more diluted, the memes have actually become more abstract. And I can't believe that the internet has just been united on this one opinion, but actually it's all getting a bit silly. But you also wanted to talk about, you know, humour's obviously being used

to dismantle an issue that some in their lives, they may not be getting in touch with me yet, they may later, you know humor's obviously being used to dismantle an issue that some in their lives they may not be getting in touch with me yet they may later you know will have will have been quite a serious issue at times in some women's life and it speaks to a whole range of issues which you know undercut a lot of our relationships don't they who's valued by what by at what age and how men some men uh you know want to decide who they're with. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I don't know if these memes are going to change the world. But I think if we look at it closely, this is, I mean, a lot of the memes and the funny tweets and the satire online, they have been created by young women who feel kind of impacted by this.

I mean, me personally, I feel like I'm having a midlife crisis at 24 just kind of following this. You don't, do you? Oh, yeah. I mean, in 10 months, my sort of eligibility to date Leonardo DiCaprio is going to be expired. But I think if we if we look at it closely, I mean, this is, we could say that this is sort of young women taking the agency to kind of speak out about this and say, this is getting ridiculous. And, you know, my value and my worth is not based on my age. Emma, let's bring you into this. Good morning. Good morning. What do you make of this? Because it's carried on. That's the whole point. It's not stopped.

When it comes down to Leonardo DiCaprio, he's not going to follow the same rules as the general society. The protocol for Hollywood is fickle relationships, lots of affairs, basic breakups, costs a lot of money and replaceable partners. So the idea that we can judge him in a way that we judge the guy next door is going to be slightly different and distinct.

Having said that, taking it away from Leonardo for a minute, there's a lot of research on this, whether we like it or otherwise. And actually, dating older men is seen to be a preference of a huge cohort of women all across chronologies. And part of that, they believe, is to do just with the father complex. Other ones are to do with security and how we value society today based on things like money and the other thing that's really important is for guys again whilst we might see this at this moment in time it's just men not knowing how to deal with dating actually part of it is biology men are like it or otherwise hardwired to be attracted to women who look fertile. And as men remain fertile till they're 70, unfortunately, women aren't.

That means that men do look at people who are younger than them. And for us as women, that can make us feel invisible. But it's on us as human beings, as women, to choose to be visible. We can't just blame men constantly for not seeing our beauty and worth we are vital incredible wise maybe it's more about women starting to be more confident in their own skins and not using somebody like Leonardo DiCaprio who with respect is a terrible example he's going to be 70 and dating a 30 year old because then he'll think well I'll be dead and

then they can have my fortune and it won't matter I don't think it will mean that this is a repeated cycle for him I just think he's choosing when to settle down yeah I mean Hannah what what do you make of that we've got a message here actually from a man who listens who says I'm in my early 60s since separating from my wife I've dated women who are 10 to 15 years younger. I think older men are probably more respectful. They try to enjoy the moment without too many complications. It's also probably likely that older men have more disposable income too. A few of the points raised by Emma.

Hannah, what do you make of that? You know, I do agree in part. I think that you are right. Confidence should come from within and we shouldn't be basing our sort of ideals and our view of ourselves on some sort of ageing Hollywood actor. But I do think that it is it does speak to a wider problem, this this whole sort of Leonardo saga about, you know, ages and misogy in hollywood which are so frequently intertwined i think that it is as we grow up as women it becomes so ingrained in us that our value it's it's like commodification at its finest basically that our value goes down as we get older you know

we lose our looks we lose our sexuality we lose our fertility we lose our sort of wild naivete and and and sort of wide-eyed um lust for life and i i do think that it does set a bad precedent if i'm honest but if we're hearing from emma to come back to you emma that it's it's natural for some women to go towards older men and it's natural for older men to go towards some younger women why have we had such a reaction? I mean, I think that because there's a lot of young women these days who, as was just noted, spend a lot of time looking at things like, for example, the Hollywood myths. I'm the first person in the world to agree with the fact that in Hollywood and the movies, you're getting 50-year-old guys with 20-year-old women, and they're meant to be equal partners in a relationship on screen. That's unrealistic. The vast majority of us out there, we tend to be within a 10 year paradigm of chronology with our

partners. So actually, it's very equal. The idea that the majority of men are wandering around with 25 year old women is inconsistent with the truth. So social media, it's inconsistent with the truth, it's constantly inconsistent with the truth it invents truths that are not actually realistic or real so I think what's great about the online shall we say humor is that young women and young men have these amazing opportunities to express themselves in memes and all these funny things that aren't necessarily connected with reality but just demonstrate a particular feeling to an element of a certain type of reality, which is in the minority in this case.

That said, I agree fully. We need to see more representation, full stop, of women who are in their 50s and 60s, like the Emma Thompsons of this world, who remind us of just how beautiful and incredible women are. And I do come back to this point of you can't stop somebody being attracted to somebody else. If you're not their type if they prefer somebody younger then you can't demand that they don't find that person attractive that's when we start getting to a whole area of territory of personal control and i think that maybe that's something that young people also need to take stock of you can't choose who falls in love with you it's a mutual experience it's reciprocal reciprocal. Emma Kenny, Hannah Van Der Peer,

thank you to you. Another message here regarding Leonardo DiCaprio and dating under 25s. I wonder about the lack of any depth in these relationships with age as the criteria makes a total mockery of any kind of emotional intimacy.

Well, coming to more pressing matters, certainly if you are awaiting perhaps a court case or maybe you work in this field, because today is the day that criminal barristers in England and Wales start an indefinite strike action. This is overpay. You may remember at the end of last week, I was talking to Baroness Hale, the first woman, in fact, to be in charge of our Supreme Court, who had, as she said, some understanding as to why this was happening. She didn't say she'd join the picket lines, I should say, but I did ask her. Joining me now,

Helen Fields, a criminal barrister turned author. Her latest novel, The Last Girl to Die, follows a private investigator as she investigates murder on the Isle of Mull, far off the coast of Scotland. We will get to all of that because it's a very good yarn indeed. But Helen, good morning. Good morning. How do you feel today about this, this strike, and perhaps whether you'd be there if you were still working as a barrister? Well, I think it's been a long time coming is the problem. And the difficulty for the public is that really this has only hit the headlines very recently,

but this has been a problem for a good 20 years, literally that long. I left the bar quite a long time ago, but even when I left, the difficulties were really apparent. And the fact of the matter is these strikes aren't just about, we'd like some more money, thank you very much. What the criminal bar is trying to do is preserve the status of the criminal bar for five years, 10 years, because people are dropping out left, right and centre. And what I think a lot of people don't understand is that it's the least well-paid bit of the profession. So people go to university, they work hard, they go to the bar, they train,

and nobody goes to the Grimald Bar thinking, hey, I'm going to get rich quick. You know, if you want to do that, you go into a large solicitor's firm, you take a corporate practice, you do shipping law or something, you don't go to the Grimald Bar. These people are there because they believe in what they're doing. And you say people are dropping out? Yes. You dropped out, if I could call it like that, you chose to leave. Why? I left because, so I had my second child, I was still intending to go back. It was, that was a combination of the work conditions the type of cases I was doing I was doing lots of sexual offences cases both prosecuting and offending

and I was constantly working a 60 hour week almost every week so there was no concept no weekends there were no free evenings I had children my husband was running his own business and of course you're self-employed so there's no maternitynity pay, there's no pension provision, there's no if you get sick you get sick. And it's perilous and it's really genuinely scary. And so when it doesn't pay enough and you don't see your children and your relationship is suffering and what you're doing is horrific, honestly horrific, a lot of the time the cases you're seeing are just awful. It doesn't make it a very compelling place to be. And for you, do you think, I mean, is there any sign of that improving? No, not at all.

So I think the average now, a lot of junior barristers are working not a 60-hour week, but a 70-hour week. So junior barristers are on an average of £12,200 a year for the first three years. And it's those people who are dropping out, not because they're not getting wealthy, but because they can't pay their rent. They're not making pension provisions. They're not, you know, they're not getting by. They have to drop out.

I don't think anyone wants to. People who become criminal barristers do it because they love the idea of it. They just can't afford to. So what's going to happen in five years is that we won't have those people who should be progressing nicely and be really good, competent barristers. They won't be there. And the point is that the people who defend also prosecute as an independent barrister. You take a defence case one day, a prosecution case the next. That happens really regularly. And all that's going to happen is the whole of the criminal justice system is going to crumble.

This isn't a what if or might it happen. This is definite. There aren't enough people in the criminal justice system to keep it working. So if it's going to crumble, what does that mean? I mean, I'm just trying to get to where you could see this going. So we've already got a backlog in cases not caused by the barrister's strike. This backlog is going on for a long time. There aren't enough judges, there aren't enough courtrooms, you know, there aren't enough support staff. So the backlog is absolutely terrible.

And that's only going to grow. So the criminal bar has lost, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people over the last year. and it's not a huge profession the difficulty is we're going to get to a stage really soon where there literally are no people to prosecute no people to defend and it's already happening certainly when i was at the bar it was unthinkable to have a day when i would turn up and there would not be a barrister there to prosecute or the defendant would turn up and he didn't have defence counsel. It's happening over and over again. And so when I say it's going to crumble, that's not some sort of euphemism. It's literally going to fall down before our eyes. The system is going to grind to a complete halt.

Why did you become an author then? I was about books. Not an easy one to go into either. It's not. No, it's not a guaranteed successful career I had a little bit of time out between and worked with my husband in his media company just kind of filling in because although I wanted more time with my family I didn't want to be an at-home mum all the time I wanted to do something for myself, that was a selfish move

and then I'd always loved writing from the time I could read books I was writing and scrib um and then I'd always loved writing from the time I could read books I was writing and scribbling and it's something I loved and in fact a friend of mine I'm still in touch with who I was at sixth form with and I got back in touch with her a few years ago and she said do you not remember at sixth form we all sat around and said what would you like to do you know kind of in 10 years time she said you said you want to be an author I have no memory of that I did always love books and reading and writing. And I got to a point where my husband said, look, what is it you really want for a career? You've been at the bar, you've helped me in the media

company, what do you want? And I said, I think I'd like to sit and see if I can write a book. You know, I want to have a go. And that was the start of it all. The Last Girl to Die is the most recent one. What's it about? I gave a brief synopsis. Yes. So that is about people on the Isle of Mull, which, although it's not terribly far from the west coast of Scotland, it is quite a cut-off community. If you live there to the extent that whilst you have an influx of tourists during the nicer months, it can be a quite harsh and difficult place to die. So it's about teenagers who disappear and then one is found dead

and an investigator is there really trying to infiltrate the local police and the local community. I should say there's an apology in the book to the people of Mull who are genuinely lovely and warm and sweet and kind and I don't portray them that way in the book but it's all about the myths and legends but it's also crucially about the young women in island or rural or cut-off communities and how quite often they're not empowered to think about life beyond that community. So there's some, I would say, brushstroke feminist touches about how women can be limited if they're not shown a bigger picture of the world. And I suppose with some of your work, I know that you have used your experience as a barrister with that knowledge to inform the plots. And so it's not completely

gone away, but it's part of it. Absolutely. And it's more about drawing on. So a lot of what I do is I write from the victim's perspectives, which seems to me to be incredibly important in crime books. Too often, we just have a body floating down the river or a body in the corner of the library. That's never the situation. Every crime is horrific and we don't tell victim stories. And so I've used the opportunities, because I prosecuted as much I defended, the victims I work with and hearing their testimony, no individual cases, but the sense of them, of the reality of life. It's not just a police investigation. There are all sorts of lives and they get impacted as a kind of, you know, increasing ripples on a circle.

And that's what I try to draw into the books. And for you today, when you're thinking of the barristers on strike, I mean, there'll be some listening who really don't agree with it, despite what you've said about the reason this has happened today. Would you be out there, do you think, today? I would. I'd be out there with a heavy heart,

which is how everyone I still know and am in touch with at the bar is out there. No one's out there wanting to be there. They want this resolved. They want to be in court and they want to be working for an efficient justice service. And I do feel for them. And I think that they are suffering in this.

It's not a decision they've taken lightly. Would you ever be tempted to go back? You know, I miss the brilliant bits in court. I miss the rose-tinted glasses bits where I'm cross-examining and it's all going well. I don't miss the 60-hour weeks. I don't miss the nights where you fall asleep at the table reading a brief for the next day.

That's all real. That's not just TV dramas. It's gruelling and it's hard and it's non-stop and it takes a toll on your family. Thank you for your honesty. Helen Fields, a criminal barrister, of course, on the day that criminal barristers in England and Wales start an indefinite strike action, but now an author and the latest novel, as you were just hearing, is called The Last Girl to Die. Many messages this morning. Thank you for them, as always. Just about our conversation before this about dating younger women, as it has been put together with the story or rather the reactions that keep on going to Leonardo DiCaprio. I'm 57 and I've just come out of a relationship with a 27 year old woman. We had a lot of fun, really enjoyed each other's company.

She always says guys our own age were too self-absorbed and selfish. I fell in love with a real person, not an age. Do not be cynical, pleads this particular listener. I'm 72. I can't get over the amount of younger men who want to date me. I'm presuming this is a woman. It might not be, but men usually in their 30s onwards. No name given on that. Pam says it's okay saying a woman it might not be but men usually in their 30s onwards no name given on that uh pam says it's

okay saying a woman's responsibility it is a woman's responsibility to be confident but we are subjected to societal pressure all our lives to look act and smell etc a certain way it really is hard to be self-confident after that and another one i was 26 when i met the love of my life he was 55 at the time. We were very happy together until he died two years ago. We had a son when he was 66. It was a successful relationship and I miss him every day. I don't think he chose me because I was 29 years younger. We just fell for each other. It did help that he was very handsome and had a great sense of humour. Thank you very much for all those messages and your contributions today and to all of our guests. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank

you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. What makes you feel physically and mentally stronger? The act of skating. That's my zen. That's my relaxation time. That is the question I ask guests on my podcast to discover their secrets to health and happiness. I see going to bed at the right time as an investment in tomorrow rather than a sacrifice for today. We'll get inspiration from their achievements and find out how they take care of their physical

and mental health. I think it is really important for us to reflect on what have we missed you know. The new series of the Joe Wicks podcast from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the

most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.