Woman's Hour - Why has the post of women's minister been scrapped? Car park composer, Brown Gal Can't Swim

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

It's understood that there will not be a specific women's minister in Prime Minister Liz Truss' government. Amber Rudd, former women's minister who held the post whilst Home Secretary - tells Emma why she believes the move is 'regressive' and 'baffling'.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. And as the country grapples with the Prime Minister's plans to limit energy bill rises, spending billions to protect people from soaring prices, a policy Liz Truss is outlining in Parliament in just over an hour, we are told there are also plans for a public information campaign from the government to encourage households to reduce their energy use this winter. People will be asked to stop leaving appliances on standby and also turn down their thermostats, as there is a concern people might not because of the energy bill price cap,

which we're going to be hearing more about from the new Prime Minister in short order. So I thought I'd ask you a question. I just wanted to get this out there. If you live with people, who turns off the lights and the appliances in your house? Is there a bit of a trend? Is there a pattern? We are Woman's Hour, not trying to lead the witness. Just tell me how it is with you. 84844, that's the number you need to get in touch to text me here. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the website or send a WhatsApp message or with voice note 03700 100 444.

Data charges could apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi. Those same numbers are the numbers you need for me to ask you another question today because from the leadership of your home to the leadership of the country, on a day where police and crime commissioners say further action is needed to ensure violence against women and girls is prioritised across England and Wales,

it is understood there is to be no dedicated minister for women in the cabinet anymore. In a government now headed by a woman, who indeed was the last woman to hold that post herself, Liz Truss has scrapped the women's minister role. A man is now in charge of equalities, which includes women, we are told. We have invited him onto the programme and I do hope Nadeem Zahawi will accept our invitation. He has yet to. We'll watch that space or we'll listen to it rather. But do you care? Do you think there needs to be a women's minister anymore? Or are we done? And equalities will more than cover it as a brief, which,

as I say, I hope we can learn more about. One woman who has held the role alongside being Home Secretary thinks it's a regressive step. You'll hear from Amber Rudd next, but I'd like to hear from you. So do get in touch. 84844. That's the number you need to text me here. Also coming up, we have a composer on the programme who's incredibly excited about her latest work being performed by professional musicians in a car park. And why one woman has learned to swim as an adult in just eight weeks,

having been set the challenge by a couple of Olympians like you do. But first, listen to this moment yesterday in the House of Commons during Liz Truss's first Prime Minister's questions where the second woman to lead the country Theresa May from the back benches asked this question. Can I ask my right honourable friend why does she think it is that all three female Prime Ministers have been conservative? Mae pob tri Prif Weinidog yn gynharachol. Y Llywydd. Y Llywydd. Rwy'n diolch i fy ffrindiau'r Rheolwr, am ei gwestiwn gwych.

Rwy'n edrych ymlaen at y cyngor hwnnw o'i amser yn y swyddfa, wrth i mi ddechrau fy gwaith fel Prif Weinidog. her advice from her time in office as I start my work as Prime Minister. It is quite extraordinary, isn't it, that there doesn't seem to be the ability in the Labour Party to find a female leader, or indeed a leader who doesn't come from North London. I don't know what it is. I don't know what the issue is. As I mentioned, there is no longer a minister dedicated to women. A spokesperson for the new prime minister has confirmed that Nadeem Zahawi's role as equalities minister, quote, covers women. I have to say some messages already coming in. One here saying we do not not need a women's minister. Straight off, no name, or whether you're a man or a woman sending that,

perhaps it's not relevant, but there you go. Straight off, we do not need a women's minister. Read this message from one of you listening. And also a bit of response straight away to who turns out the lights and the appliances in your household. As a man, sorry, I turn the lights out, et cetera.

I wasn't leading the witness. My point was, this is where you can talk about this. And another one here, in my experience, it is always the woman who turns up the thermostat. Here's another message from one of our many male listeners, who I'll always hear from too. I'm sure we'll keep getting responses, but so far it's men who apparently turn everything off

and we don't need a women's minister. Some of your responses very quickly to my questions this morning. Please keep those responses coming in. But first, let's have a listen on the issue of whether there needs to be a minister expressly for women. To Amber Rudd, who juggled being women and equalities minister while having one of the toughest jobs in government, Home Secretary. And I asked her for her reaction to the news. I do think it is disappointing and slightly baffling to hear that the formal cabinet held role is no longer called women in equalities, but just equalities. Personally, I've been calling for a number of years to have the women and equalities brief as a sole cabinet

job. And I've worried for a long time that it's just a side hustle to an important other job. And I think that this move appears to have emphasised that. Well, I think it's done more than that. It's downgraded it even more. Well, it's downgraded it for women, yes, by losing the word women. And in a world where we are fighting to make sure that the word women is not reduced anywhere, I think it's sad to see a government department dropping the word women. Actually, I can hardly get my head around it, given that we have a woman prime

minister. Why are we losing the word women from the cabinet role? Do you think it's because Liz Truss knows, having held, ironically, being the last woman to hold this post as women in equality as minister, alongside being foreign Secretary and a number of other roles. Do you think it's because she knows you don't have to have it? One of the criticisms of her was that, apart from the fact it would be very hard to do all of those roles and do them equally and do them as well as possible, there was criticism that she didn't pay enough attention to it. And so she knows firsthand perhaps you don't need to.

Well, I mean, I was home secretary when i held the role and i i that is why i now take the view that i would like to see an independent somebody just doing women inequalities and reporting to cabinet not having it tacked on to the most senior women or in this case a senior man and dropping the word women sure it's not written down in statute like it is with education and foreign that you have to have these separate departments. You're right, you don't need to, but it seems like it is a retrogressive move, a regressive move, sorry, that's what I was looking for, to drop the word women, particularly in this climate. Could you also argue, though,

that with a third female prime minister and yes all of them have come from the conservative side so far that she perhaps felt enough progress has been made well that would be a mistake you know i would point to the fact that you know two women a week are still killed by their partners or former partners we still have a gender pay gap which was only introduced a few years ago and is currently running at quite a high level of 10%, although it's come down, it is no way that we should assume that there is a job done. There is more to do.

And also this idea that equalities can just cover everybody. We need to make sure that women specifically are looked after. We are the population. There are still areas where we need to make tremendous more progress, where losing the word women could have an adverse effect. And we can do that and support other equalities as well. It's not the Hunger Games. We don't have to pit one equality, inequality against each other. We can still work with all inequalities and make sure that we look after women by making

sure the name is still there. Do you think this could be something where we see a U-turn on it? Do you think there's a mistake here? I do not know. I cannot look into her heart about what's going to happen in terms of the U-turns. I would just like to be amongst, I expect the many people who will question why we're dropping the word women from a cabinet role. Nadine Zahawi is the Minister for Equalities. As you say, there may be somebody else who's then appointed, but the role as it stands, as you say, with the name women in it is no more. With a man in charge of the ministership for equalities, do you think that that is a potential issue? That does break with tradition, really, the whole issue of making sure that we have a woman in charge of women and equalities. That's the first time that will have happened.

And I can see why they then thought, oops, we better drop the name women from that particular title. But I think it's going to cause confusion. You know, all I can hope for is that the new women's minister, when she's appointed, is somebody who will very much make her mark in the women's brief and make a difference and continue to make progress against inequalities against women. I mean, you sound very confident that's going to happen. It's our understanding that we're not sure that's going to happen. So I think we're both going to see what happens with that. Well, let me take a little bit of Liz Truss's optimism about the future and believe that there's going to be a women minister who's going to really make her mark. Let's hope so. Well, yes, but I am just trying to share with the listeners what we've been told and we haven't been given that information. So unless you're telling us something different based on what we've heard. No, I have no insight. The reason I also ask about the male role here and having a man in that position is because there was this story. I don't know if you saw it recently in Scotland.

It was about a role promoting periods and menstrual well-being, which was given to a man. And to also try and promote what's happened in Scotland, which is that free menstrual products for anyone who needs them are now available. That role's been scrapped after the news was met with incredulity that a man was put into that position. Do you think a man can ever work on behalf of women? Listen, I know some fantastic men who do support women, do great jobs in women's charities and women's organisations. And I do agree the idea of having, however, I do agree the idea of having a man supporting addressing period poverty is absurd. So I think that was the right move not to have a man after all.

But we mustn't undermine the fact that some men do do a great job. But as a government job, you can't have a man doing a job which is as a woman's minister. So that's why I think we will see an appointment today, Emma, because it'd be so illogical not to. We'll see, Amber. We will see. Thank you very much. Of course, something was made by your former colleague, Theresa May, yesterday. She asked Liz how she felt about being the third female prime minister. And I think, again, it's a moment perhaps on the left where there is this reflection on certainly on the Labour benches, why it hasn't yet happened. But then moves like this are making some of our listeners question

whether having a woman in charge is good for women. And that's what I suppose is left as a question. No, I think a woman in charge is always good for women because young women all over the country will see that and it makes such a difference to see a role model. You don't have to agree with their model. You don't have to agree with their politics. You don't have to support the direction they're taking the country in. But seeing women there makes a huge difference to younger women seeing it as an opportunity

potentially for them to get involved in politics. You mustn't take that away from women. There was a headline, she won't have to be good, she'll have to be great. As a second woman from the Conservative Party to come up this way, a sort of coronation by the Conservative Party rather than a general election, and with an in-tray like no other in peacetime, it's been argued as well. She's certainly got her work cut out for it. What would you make, for her rather, what do you make of the idea that we've seen women get these roles when they essentially need to clean up

after the men who've come before them? Well, I think it sounds like Liz Truss has got all the energy, commitment and enthusiasm to do just that. It's not unusual for prime ministers to be elected in midterm. I think at least about half of the ones in the past 20 years have been. There's an element of having to really hit the ground running. And it looks like she's got off to a pretty dynamic start. We're getting quite a few prime ministers it seems though lately in that way and quite a lot from the Conservative benches. So we'll see how far we go and whether of course she makes it to the next election

whenever that might be. Amber Rudd, thank you very much for your time and your experience of course of holding that role alongside Home Secretary. Thank you Emma. Amber Rudd there. We did mention the period dignity officer in Scotland and the latest on that particular story we have actually invited that gentleman onto the programme and also those who are in charge of his appointment but he's actually taking legal action after losing his job. The latest on that I know we've had a few messages about that over the last couple of weeks.

Many of you getting in touch on the issues that I've raised. The ministership one about do we need a women's minister, but also who is responsible in your household if you live with others for turning off appliances, turning off the lights. As we expect more detail on the prime minister's proposals to help with energy bills as we go into the winter. Jane in Worcestershire, good morning. You say if you want equality, you will need a men's minister to make it equal. Another one. How many centuries did it take for women to come to the forefront as a gender? I'm very disappointed there is no minister dedicated to women. She's in that office. Let's talk about Liz Truss because there have been women's voices cheering her rights on. Equalities and women do not always align and

squeezing the identity of women within the equality umbrella is utterly disappointing. Women's identity is being absorbed by other identities. And this trust has just made it easier. I am quite angry, to be honest. No, says this message, we do not need a women's minister. We want to be treated equally, not given special treatment. And I am a woman. I'm getting tired of women whinging, in single quotes. I don't know who that's from. I don't know if it's from a I am a woman. I'm getting tired of women whinging in single quotes.

I don't know who that's from. I don't know if it's from a man or a woman. No name on that. Another one here from Sarah. Unbelievable. Yet another female prime minister who refuses to champion women. Yes, we need a women's minister. No, we are not done.

You don't need me to reel off the statistics. And to place a man as a qualities minister is a joke, not a funny one. Sarah, your take on that of course there'd be a lot made and has been a lot made of the cabinets and the number of women and those of ethnic minorities and also they're not being a single white man in the four top offices of state when you talk about championing women but you may also be thinking about women far away from politics which is of, of course, what politicians are there to do. We do not need a woman's minister, simply another message, and women are not a minority. A couple of messages combining, more than a couple, you've been very generous this morning, combining both topics. I'm a woman and it's me who turns off things in the house, and we definitely need a woman's minister. Sexism is still endemic in

our society. Another one, Woman's Hour, yes, hello. We do need a woman's minister. Sexism is still endemic in our society. Another one, Woman's Hour. Yes, hello. We do need a woman's minister and I've always turned off the lights, lowered the thermostat and switched off gadgets on standby. And I'm a woman, says Rachel here. Thank you for these messages.

Keep them coming in. And to that point about who's turning off what and some of your concerns, just over an hour to go until the prime minister stands up in the comments to announce more details about those plans. I'm the one in my house with three kids and a partner dedicated to turning off lights and I'm happy living in a cold house as I was brought up this way, being Scottish and

having had a single parenting mum who was always concerned about the cost of wasting energy. It's embedded in me and hopefully I'll pass this on to my children, says Anna, listening in Norfolk. Hello to you. I've always switched everything off when not in use and I've always thought that's what you're supposed to do. It surprises me some people don't, says Virginia. I find it patronising to be told how to save energy, reads this other message. Anyone who is forced to live on a fixed low income due to illness or being a state pensioner has already done all of these things. What do people suggest after you've done all the things suggested freeze to death it's the only thing that's not coming out here there's more of this message let me just get that it's the only choice says joanne listening in north lincolnshire

good morning my husband's always locked the door switched the lights off secured the house purely because he's the last one to come to bed but it's a rare occasion it's me who does it all but that is a rarity says nadia listening in Cheltenham and so it goes on keep your messages coming in I will come back to them shortly but there is a real divide it has to be said about whether we need a minister for women expressly for women or not well the news about that is particularly striking regardless of your view on it on a day where the safety of women and girls has come up again in how our police forces operate. Police and crime commissioners have reacted to a report out today from the National Police Chiefs Council about the police's response to violence against women and girls, saying there's still a long way to go.

In September last year, a review was conducted into how police forces in England tackle this issue after the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving police officer. And several recommendations were made for improvement. This, after that initial report, is the first progress report. So how it's going. Katie Bourne is the Police and Crime Commissioner for Sussex. She was part of the Home Secretary's Domestic Abuse Oversight Group. Good morning. Good morning. The conclusion of this report, people can go and access it, is that there is still a long way to go. Can you tell us a bit more about what you think on this and what perhaps there is left to do?

Sure. I welcome this report. I actually sat on the Inspectorate's senior reference group that put together, they made recommendations and one of these was that policing nationally needs to get a grip around this area. So it's good to see this interim report come out, but there is a lot more to do in this front. So for starters, every day, we know this from the femicide census, every day in this country, a woman is still killed at the hands of a man every three days. And that has not changed for 10 years. So we keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. So this was one of those seminal moments for policing where they really needed to do something different. And and I support the three sort of pillars that Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe, who's leading on this for police chiefs, has laid out.

But we can go through each of those and I can tell you areas where I think, you know, more needs to be done. The first one is around building trust and confidence in policing. And how how can that be done? Because, I mean, that's that's a very difficult one one to do. Because of course, if you don't have contact with the police, and you have a view, how can that be changed? I think Maggie's first move was to make sure that every police force has an action plan on how to tackle violence against women and girls. And that she has done, which is great. So what we need now to ensure is that locally, every police force is continuing that conversation with their women's groups, and those organisations

that support women and girls who are victims of whether it's domestic abuse, or, or a serious sexual offence, and so on. So that's, that's a, you know, a further bit. And that builds the trust and confidence. I remember for my own part in Sussex, just after the awful murder of Sarah Everard, I pulled together a meeting of all our women's provider groups and the police. And the police told them about some of the really good work they were doing and the provider groups weren't aware of it. So there was a lack of that sort of conversation happening. We've obviously improved that. We have regular meetings and we've got a big conference with them in November coming up

where the police are going to deliver what they've been doing. And I've paid for through funding that I've got from government, a superintendent role to actually deal with this locally in our force area. So many, many forces have done similar but there are still some that that have a bit of work to do in this space and i know you've also looked into another thing that the report has said is going to focus on is safe spaces making sure public areas and online spaces are safer for women and girls why has that that i mean why is that still an issue now if you see what I mean? Why is that

taken to this report and then a progress report, if you can keep up with all the reports, to be highlighted is still a problem? Well, it does beg a belief, doesn't it? I mean, safe spaces for women and girls, but for all of us actually, includes physical spaces as well as those digital spaces, those online spaces. So some of the things that have been progressed in this area, and I'm delighted to see, you know, our Safe Streets app got a mention in this, that we're developing locally, where if you are somebody in Sussex and you're not feeling safe in an area, we've got over nearly 300 businesses who've offered up their spaces as safe spaces.

And the app will automatically take you there through SatNav and what have you. And you can then access some help. They've also they're also looking at Op Vigilant, which was started in Thames Valley Police, where in in public spaces, they are actually targeting predatory behaviour. So the police, we know, for example, if somebody stands and flashes at you, there is a likelihood if that behaviour is not stopped early, the person will probably escalate their behaviour and later down the line could become a serious sexual predator. We do see those sort of gateway offences. So the police are now in a lot of force areas. I think there's 21 forces now that have adopted Op Vigilant, are actually going back and looking at those reports where they've had people who, for example, expose themselves in public place and actually track down that person and stop that behaviour.

So there is some really good work going out there, but we can't be complacent and the police mustn't be. And as a police and crime commissioner locally, I continue to focus in this area, as do many of my colleagues, to make sure that they don't take their eye off the ball on this one and think that they've achieved what they need to do. And then there's the misogyny within certain parts of the police force. Yes. I mean, some of the building trust and confidence that Maggie talks about in the interim report is an internal view around officer behaviour as well. And we know from some of the dreadful reports that have come out, you know, the WhatsApp group where officers were speaking in disgusting, misogynistic terms, you know, that entire culture,

how do you get it and change it? The positives we have is with the big recruitment driving officers that we've got at the moment. My force is not alone in this. By next year, a third of all police officers nationally will be new to policing. And that is a massive opportunity to really change that culture. So to get in early in their training, make sure that they're given proper training so that they feel comfortable when they spot any misogynistic behaviours, to call it out. Although the trust, ironically,

about the police policing themselves is also pretty low, not just about women and girls, because that's been an issue as well, we have heard. You are, of course, as I mentioned, working as a police and crime commissioner for Sussex, a conservative one. And we're asking our listeners today about the scrapping of a women's minister and expressly named as such now women being folded into the equalities brief. With the focus that you have had,

do you think that's fine? Is that the right next step? I was listening to your debate with real interest, and it's pretty split, isn't it? I suppose in a way, I'm not surprised that the equalities includes now the women's brief as well, because throughout her campaign, you know, Ms. Truss has been very vocal about what she understands women to be. And she's often said that, you know, just calling me a woman is a bit like a tick-boxing exercise. It dehumanises us to be treated just as a woman.

So, you know, I do understand. She's also defended the word women and woman in lots of other scenarios. Yeah, you could argue this is progressive, you know, I do also defended the word women and women in lots of other scenarios. Yeah, you could argue this is progressive. You know, at last we're 51% of the population. We no longer need to be singled out. And therefore, you know, the equality will continue. We've got a man championing it now in Nadeem Zahawi, Iraqi born as well. So, you know, he understands inequalities.

I also know he's married to a very strong woman who definitely won't let him take his eye off the ball. But, you know, what's that got to do with it? Well, well, those of you that that have family lives, if you if you've got women in your life who are strong role models and that it will influence you immensely. Oh, come on. That's like men who are strong role models and that, it will influence you immensely. Oh, come on. That's like men who come on the radio and say, I really care about women because I've got a daughter. Yeah.

And that's not saying that they don't. So if he didn't have a wife, he wouldn't be able to look after women in the Equality Speak. No, no. It's human nature to want to show empathy. Of course you do. But what I was going to go on to say was let's judge him on his actions rather than his words.

Let's judge Nibs on the right. Completely. I mean, I say all of what we're saying. You know, my fellow journalists were reporting very early days in a new iteration of this Conservative government. We're waiting for details. You know, what we've just done with you is get some of the details about a report that was already coming out, you know, a progress report on a report, so many reports. But with that said, it sounds like you are actually comfortable with getting rid of the women's minister role. from it. I heard what Amber said. I have a huge amount of respect for Amber and we worked very closely together when she was Home Secretary as well. And I used to be National Chairman of the

Conservative Women's Organisation. And I was a vocal proponent for having those women-only spaces where women can talk to other women if they want that, because, you know, not everybody does. Many are comfortable in open spaces, some aren't. So, you know, at the moment, I suppose for me, the jury is out. I want to see what the actions are from it. But I do know that men's groups that deal with victims of domestic abuse and violence against men will be shouting with joy for this because they often write to me and my PCC colleagues around their

concerns that all the funding goes to tackle the violence against women and girls and not enough focus is on them. So it's going to be an interesting one. I suppose personally, I don't feel terribly comfortable about it. I would like to see the women's minister role being dedicated. You would? Okay. That said, let's see what the actions are that come out of it first. All right. Well, I was interested in your take on it, but of course it's interesting to hear your background as well

and how you've worked within the Conservative movement. Katie Bourne, thank you very much for your time. Thank you for inviting me. A message here from Julia. I'm totally bewildered and angry that Liz Truss is scrapping the Minister for Women. This would be bad enough coming from a male prime minister, but I think she needs to rethink her attitude. We do need a minister for women.

Read this one from Heather, who's listening, who says we also, though, need women to organise and campaign. Political parties cannot be relied, for instance, to put maternity rights, equal pay, childcare and women's safety first. Another one here. No, we don't need a women's minister with an experience of having a wife as a civil servant. And another one, I am a loyal Labour supporter, but I was reading up on statistics on the Cabinet of Liz's Trust. She has a Cabinet, you've put it here, as 57% female majority. Has she chosen to remove the women's minister

because they are dealing with it as a Cabinet collectively? Asks the question from Caroline, who's listening in North Wales and so it goes on and many messages about the thermostat and the the electricity conversations going on in your house which sounds like it generates quite a lot of heat as well as what's going on with with bills and how people are managing you know it's a very serious topic indeed but there's also some light-hearted messages coming in. Sian says, I got so fed up with turning off the bathroom and loo lights following husband using them.

I think you said husband's plural here, but I think you mean singular, but we'll see. I got movement sensitive automatic lights installed. Harmonious bliss now prevails. That's lovely. I've got a vision of your husband, I think singular, sitting on the toilet and having to wave his arms to keep the light on. Sian, thank you very much indeed for that message. Keep them coming in. Now imagine learning to swim as an adult in just eight weeks.

That's what my next guest, Samaya Moogle, has done. She wants to encourage other South Asian women to do the same in her new campaign and podcast, which is called Brown Girl Can't Swim. A study last year by Sport England shows that only 6.9% of British Asian women surveyed participated in swimming at least once in the past year, compared with 18.6% of white British women. I know there's going to be additional work looking at that data, making it an even broader data set. But Samaya has just walked in, not swam in, to the studio. Good morning. Hi, morning. Thank you for having me.

Lovely to have you here. In fact, we only met yesterday. We did, yeah. I elevator-pitched Brown Girl Can't Swim To You in the green room at the Radio Academy in about 60 seconds and was relieved that you care. If there is a good idea, I am taking it straight away. Some of the best ideas I've ever had for discussions on the radio or writing columns have happened in the toilet so that

wasn't us yesterday but tell us why you set this up because it is a campaign podcast and it's going to be on the iPlayer it is yeah it is indeed well I'm 28 years old I started this when I was 27 my birthday last week just as a bit of a disclaimer on that. And I spent over 20 years embarrassed about the fact that I didn't have a skill that it felt like kids had, right? It's really embarrassing talking about not being able to swim because it feels like such a basic thing. But I was interviewing Alice Dearing, who is the only black swimmer for Team GB on The Breakfast Show on BBC Radio Leicester that was presenting at the time. And she was amazing in all the work she was doing, advocating for the black community

and the challenges they face in terms of swimming, in terms of hair and skin and mithra and bone density. And I looked to my community. I am a Pakistani British woman. I couldn't see the same proactivity happening. It might have been, but I couldn't see it. And so I decided, decided well who's talking about the challenges that I might face or my community might face and I decided to do something about it

and you've had to learn to swim yeah yeah it's been really scary talk but it's nothing to get in the water talking's a lot easier than getting in the water and it's Alice Dearing and Rebecca Adlington so you've had two Olympians on your back. I have, yeah. So I decided, right, I want to do something about this. And I need someone to set me a task, a bit of a challenge. So who better to go to than a four-time Olympic champion, Rebecca Adlington, who's a Mansfield girl. I'm from Nottingham, so she's just over the border. And I thought, let me pop her a line.

Honestly, Emma, I didn't think she was going to reply to my email, but she did. And her and Alice Dearing, who I mentioned a moment ago who is an open water swimmer sent me the challenge of 500 meters in open water so it's not only about learning to swim in eight weeks it's also about trying to do this swim which is happening next Tuesday I don't know if I can do it but I'm going to try where are you doing it in Nottingham it is Ring Lakes in Nottingham, yeah. And hopefully Becky Adlington will be there. Shout out, Becky, get yourself there.

It's on Woman's Hour now, love. Well, I hope she's listening. She'll catch up later if she's not. She might be in the pool. She might not. What was it like starting, though, the lessons? How did you begin? It was scary, Emma.

So I grew up in a place called Bestwoods, which is a council estate in Nottingham. And I had a few swimming lessons there when I was a kid. And I wanted up in a place called Bestwoods which is council estate in Nottingham and I had a few swimming lessons there when I was a kid and I wanted to return to that estate and tackle that pool so I decided to go back to South Glade Ledger Centre and get into that pool that I was so scared of when I was seven years old and I was terrified but I was also scared because I had a TV crew there and I had no makeup on my face and I'm wearing a modest swimming costume something completely different but I did it and I got in the water and a big shout out to my incredible swimming teacher Victoria Charles who's held my

hand throughout all of this whole process um it was really scary and I feel like I've spent most of the last eight weeks terrified and anxious because yes it's a physical challenge but it's so mental Emma that's what it is the biggest challenge has been my mental health and every single day and every single time I get into the pool overcoming that fear and that anxiety of my feet not touching the ground or not having something to hold on to or having a crab in my hair which happened last week when I decided to swim in the sea in Montenegro and freaked out yeah but that must have been amazing because it's not just about being able to swim it's about being for instance on holiday as well and being able to join in yeah but you're you were did you have any lessons as a child and then it wasn't followed up on and tell me a bit more about

how you think the cultural element plays into this yeah so I had swimming lessons as a kid but I didn't really pick it up in school right and then my mum decided to take me to a few extra lessons. And she thought that I could swim by the end of those extra lessons. And what I remember is kind of learning on my back, but I don't remember feeling like I left those lessons being able to swim as a child. Then I was raised by my dad later in life, who was born in Pakistan. He's 61. He's a GP. He also can't swim. So as a Muslim woman, if you didn't learn when you were a little kid, and then later in life, the co-owners kind of falls on your parents, right?

So if my dad couldn't swim because, you know, there weren't pools in Pakistan when he was growing up, and it wasn't a priority for him, then I didn't pick up that skill. The other thing to know in terms of the cultural element, so there's the generational argument, is clothing, right? So in Islam, modesty is important. And I appreciate that modesty is a spectrum, right? I could be wearing a sleeveless top and I see that as modest. But, you know, other Muslim women may look at that and say, well, that's not something I would feel comfortable wearing. So one of the challenges I've had is trying to find the right swimming costume,

which fits and speaks to the community that I'm trying to reach Muslim women, especially, but also feels authentic to who I am as a British Pakistani woman. And it's been really hard, because I've got these two identities, you know, I'm British and I'm Muslim and I'm Pakistani as well. And the clothing thing has been a real barrier for me. However, it does exist. Modest clothing is available. Female only swim classes are available. And that's what I'm trying to raise awareness about and sort of say, like, I get it.

I get that clothing could be a barrier. I get having, you know, mixed classes could be a barrier I get having you know mixed classes could be a barrier but there are facilities available and if there aren't then talk about it and let's see what we can do because it's a skill that could save your life after all well yeah definitely there is that and also we there was a report not long ago out which showed that since uh since lockdown since the pandemic yeah uh fewer women are moving and being active and then you go into that and you'll find different reasons as to why it's not happening different responsibilities perhaps also issues of not having anywhere to go issues of access but also perhaps how to dress how not to dress those things are going to be different depending on your community absolutely 100 and i i've spoken to

so many pakistani muslim women or just Muslim women generally. I was hosting a halal food festival in Manchester with 17,000 people coming through the doors. And the amount of messages I got from women coming up to me and on social media, hundreds, Emma, saying, I agree, like clothing's been a barrier for me or not knowing if there are the facilities available just for women has been a barrier for me or having the confidence to wear something different or actually making this a priority there are a lot of cultural reasons as to why women may not swim or you know muslim pakistani women may not swim but at the same time they want to it's not that they don't and i can't speak for all muslim pakistani women i know there are women listening to this that can swim

and amazing that you can. But there are many that can't and want to. And I hope that this has started a conversation. Well, you can. Oh, we think. I mean, you can. But whether you're going to do your challenge is a whole other thing.

And it's happening, just remind us, next week? Yeah. So Monday, the podcast launches on BBC Sounds. It's called Brown Girl Can't Swim. Subscribe to that. And Tuesday is that final big 500-metre open water swim. We wish you the very best of luck. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Wish me luck. I need it. I'm very happy our paths crossed yesterday at the radio festival. If you're wondering what the Radio Academy is, it's put on that festival. And it was all about the joy of doing exactly this and the power of sharing messages and the stories on the microphone and the power of audio.

Samaya, good luck. Samaya Moogle there with, and if you just want to check that again, just to tell you, brown gal can't swim. Now, there's a growing shortage of foster carers and more people should consider doing it. That's the view of the children's charity, Barnardo's. It says the number of children referred to their fostering services has jumped by over a quarter in the last 12 months. And at the same time, the advancing age of many of its carers means that an

increasing number are now retiring. Christine is on the line who started fostering during lockdown. And in a moment, I'll talk to Lynne Perry, Chief Executive of Barnardo's. But Christine, good morning. Hello, good morning. Hello. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me. Well, lovely to have you. And you've only quite recently started doing this. Yes, I started two and a half years ago, but I've recently had a new foster child in my care. Yes. And why did you start? I started because I've always had a passion for working with and supporting children of all different backgrounds and ages. I started working with children in children's homes

and then I continued to work with children in education. And I supported, I did a supported lodging contract where I supported young people to become independent, to live on their own. And whilst I was doing this, the term, because they were so independent when they were independent, I didn't have them for very long. So I wanted to foster so that I can have them earlier to support them in this process. Do you think you have to have done all those different things or have these sorts of experience to do this now you have done it? Absolutely not. No, you don't have to have any experience. I believe that you just need to have

a bit of compassion for children. You just need to, you know, have certain qualities with regards to wanting to be with children, having patience, you know, having the skills to which are adaptable. But no, definitely not. That was just my choice. And it just so happened that I worked in the industry. Yeah, but you don't need to. You also have to have the space. You have to have the time.

And absolutely, you do have to have the space. Well, I was also going to say in the financial scenario, the economic situation we're in, perhaps I'll come to that with Lynn in just a moment. A lot of people feeling very pressurised and perhaps they can't even look beyond their own family. I know that you've got grown up children. Yes, I have.

I have four sons who have left home and left home independently and they live on their own and even have children now. Yes. So and in terms of the success, if I could put it like that, of the children that you've had so far through fostering, can you give us one of the stories? Can you give us an insight? Certainly, yes. I have had a foster child who I have supported. And presently, he is supporting me to support this young person that I'm placed with. He speaks English. So he is supporting my young person who is Eritrean. And I had him from a children's home, actually. He came from a children's home to me. And I supported him with college.

He spoke very little English. He did an ESOL course in Croydon College. And then he went on to semi-independent living where he lived on his own, in the house with other people and now he's has his own flat he decorated it by himself with his friends and he passed his driving lesson passed his driving lesson and did some work for during covid he did quite a lot of work as a delivery driver and now he's um he is applying for a job as an ambulance driver, which he's in the process of doing.

And I'm so proud of him. That's incredible. It's really incredible. And to still have that bond with him and have that connection to the next child coming through. Is it right that you've chosen to take in boys? Yeah, my preference is boys because I have a lot of experience with boys but however I have taken in a girl before two girls before so but it's a preference you can have a preference and um yes I prefer boys and why is that just in

case you know people are listening and they're thinking about how to how to do this and what to say and and how to fill in the forms okay I've I said boys because I've had I have four sons and um my skills are based with you know I work with boys a lot and so that's where my skill base is I but I can and I do have worked with females as well. Speaking of work, how are your work about this? Do you need to take time off? Is there anything provided? I work for an organisation that is very, very supportive. And we have foster carers policies in place so I have I can take holidays

I have two weeks leave where I can take settling period my workplace are very flexible I work flexi time so I could never be late for work and I can always work a little bit later if required this week my my foster son started college, so I was able to work, take him to college and work around him and still go to work. Unfortunately, that my office is based immediately in front of Croydon College, so it's really convenient. It's really worked well. Christine, stay with us. Let me bring in Lynn at this point, Chief Executive of Bernardes. Good morning. Good morning.

Thank you for having us on this morning to talk about this. I suppose while it is really important to hear the good stories, the experiences of what's happened with Christine and the connection she's made with young people and how she's impacted their lives, just even with that last point, it does feel, and you can understand why some would feel, that a lot of things have to be in place for you to be able to do this. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think for a lot of people, actually, you know, they are sitting thinking about, you know, their own perceptions of what it takes to offer a really, you know, good experience of foster care for a child or a young person. And, you know, the recent survey work that we did, I think, was an illustration of that, really, that,

you know, some people might think that they're too young, some people might think that they're too old, some people think that they don't have sufficient experience perhaps if they haven't been parents or it's some time since their parenting experience and we know there are a lot of a lot of things that are perhaps misconceptions for people as well but you're you know you're quite right there do need to be some of those practical considerations for people too about, you know, do you have a spare room in your home? Are you going to get the sort of appropriate support to help you to provide the best stable and supportive and loving environment for a child? It's a really big commitment to make isn't it and you know it's really encouraging to hear I think that Christine has been so well supported herself by her employers and when when we look at foster carers who come forward to us or prospective foster

carers one of the things that we try to help them do actually is think about all of the support that they will need and how that can be put in um put in place and that's a really important part of the sort of assessment and matching um process of a foster carer um with a child or with children and um you know we we tailor the support as well i think for the carer in that sense as well as um for the child so it's a it is a balance and it's really important that that's that's well managed and well supported but you need more people i mean that's that's what you're saying we do absolutely so you know what we've've seen is a really significant increase in the number of children and young people who are being referred to us for foster placements. And we've seen a 25 percent increase, actually. So it's it's a really significant step up.

And that's in the last 12 months. And what happens if you don't have a foster carer to to connect them with? Well, I think at the same time, what we've seen is this reduction in foster carers. And so there are children who might be waiting longer for foster care and they might be in residential children's home provision. They might be accessing things like short breaks care while they're waiting for a longer term foster placement but one of the things that's really important for children and young people is that sense of stability and home life and being able to be in a relationship with somebody who is there looking out for them and supporting them in all of the the sort of daily activities of life

and so timely foster care is really important for children to provide that stability and we we've got this if i may the broader context that we're living in the the issues around costs and people trying to to get through this difficult period but also a minded of one of our listeners who got in touch to to talk about the experience of taking in a ukrainian refugee which hadn't gone how they had hoped you know is in terms of the context we're in are you concerned about this being more difficult because some may have already tried to give their homes already and may actually also be very happy with that, I should say. And also how much homes and our lives are costing.

Yeah, I think the cost of living is definitely a factor that will be concerning people. You know, am I going to be able to afford to do this? And, you know, we know actually from the work that we did that, you know, that is an area of concern for people. It's a question of affordability. But of course, you know, that is also a consideration when we're thinking about what is the support that a child will need and how well enabled will a foster carer be to provide that? But there's no doubt that that will be a factor at the forefront of a lot of people's considerations at the moment. I think as well, you know, we've come out of the pandemic. Lots of people have done a bit of a life audit during the pandemic period.

We've seen it, haven't we, in the employment market as well. But here in Barnardo's, one of the things that we recognise is that we've got an older population of foster carers and a number of people who are moving towards retirement as foster carers and so it's really important to us I think that we appeal to people who are in a place to offer that sort of support and stability and a loving home. We can't possibly cover all of the details that people need to know about but there's a lot of information especially on your website about some of the issues and of course the government websites as well. Lynn Perry, Chief Executive of Barnardus, thank you and And to Christine, thank you very much for sharing some of your quite recent experience of becoming a foster carer during lockdown. Just before we go to my next guest, swimming as an adult has provoked messages. Sarah says it's interesting to hear your piece on women and

swimming. I'm a swimming coach specialising in working with people with water confidence and phobia issues. Fear of the water is a huge blocker for so many women. It's really easy to overcome with the right help but so many try and learn to swim whilst they still have this fear. Sadly control and safety is not taught often enough meaning so many women give up on swimming lessons blaming themselves for their inability to learn to swim. I'll come to some more in a moment if I can. But let me ask you this. What picture comes to mind when you think of classical music?

A grand performance, perhaps, in a spectacular hall? What if the venue was a car park? Well, that is where you're going to find the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra performing this Saturday in Wembley. They're putting on a free performance. It will feature brand new music from the young contemporary composer, Dani Howard, who, when we were just looking through how she got into

composing, had to nanny for three years after graduating from one of the top music schools in the country. From looking after children to the car park and some music in between, Dani Howard, good morning. Good morning. Thanks so much for having me here. We'll get to how you got to where you are now, if we can, because I think it's always interesting in such a competitive field, such a difficult field to hear how people have done it. But the car park, how's that happening? Oh, that's happening this Saturday. And it's just an incredible project that was devised with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra alongside Wembley Park, which is going to be their new home. They will be one of the first London orchestras

to be moving their offices into the Brent area, into Wembley in 2024. So I think this is the start of an incredible, well, the continuation of an incredible relationship with that borough and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Could they not get the keys to the room? Or why is it in the car park? We decided, basically, well, borough and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Could they not get the keys to the room or why is it in the car park?

We decided basically, well, I'm all about making classical music more accessible to more people and so is the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and there is something about bringing the orchestra to people rather than telling people, why don't you come here and listen to this concert? Really going into their neighbourhood, into the space itself. And this performance will start with a parade from the bottom of Wembley Arena steps and lead people towards this car park that's a beautiful space.

You know, it's a green car park, got green everywhere. Curious about how the sound will be, but I have no doubt it'll sound brilliant. And yeah, that's the idea of bringing music to people and having a combination of the local community knowing about this event, which I hope they do, but also finding people that are, you know, doing their shopping or having a coffee with someone nearby and saying, oh, what's going on over there? Let's have a look and bringing this to people who might not otherwise go to a concert. This year's theme is migration.

We're just going to play a clip and it's just tell us before we do birds journeys. Tell us a bit more. Yes, this is one of the pieces that's being performed on Saturday and it's in collaboration with the Sujata Banerjee Dance Company. They're an amateur Indian dance group. And she is a phenomenal choreographer. And her proposal included was about bird migration and birds moving in flocks and how they move such long distances. And all about the theme of journeys, which is what the concert's about.

Let's have a listen. Oh, I could drift off to that. I'm nearly finished here at Woman's Hour. Thank you. That's beautiful. But not forever, I hasten to add, but just for today. I did mention you had to nanny and that was your choice of work once you left the Royal Academy of Music. I believe you were also one of very few girls, women training. Yeah, I mean, I'm actually not at all ashamed to say that because I think when I was a student, a lot of people shied away from saying what their immediate job was upon graduating. And it wasn't what I searched for. It just sort of fell into place with a friend that was teaching the children and they needed a nanny.

And I thought, you know what, actually, I need something now. It's interesting people don't want to necessarily say what they immediately do. I think it's important like I was saying I think it's so important because everyone it's also secretive and you know no one's going to be making a full-time living as a composer at you know 21 um it just doesn't work like that so um yeah I think it was a wonderful experience and I learned a lot from it um but yeah it was wonderful to be able to to do that for those years and then eventually transition you know as a self-employed person into the full full time composer. And how did you do that? Well, it was it took that three and a half year period of really basically having that full time job as well as being a full time composer, but not the money not coming fully from the commissions. And eventually it was

a combination of, you know, a lot of freelancers that have a portfolio career of doing, I worked with film composers orchestrating some of their music and some publishing work, a variety of different projects as well as commissions. And I was fortunate to be able to build more commissions with more orchestras. And that allowed me to move to that full time. And how is the scene now for female composers? Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. It's changed a lot from when I started where it wasn't being talked about very much and the last few years I must say it's been incredible to see the amount of female composers that have been championed by orchestras across the

world we're seeing so much more of of those hidden gems from the past that really should have kept their name they really deserve to be part of our canon that were lost they're being brought back and as well as you know female composers are being commissioned a huge amount in this year, last year, the last few years, it's been really incredible to see the shift. Well, Dani Howard, thank you very much. Good luck for this weekend.

I hope the car park and the sound is all that you hope for. And it was lovely to have a little snippet of that. Thank you for talking to us today. Thanks for having me. So many messages from all of you today. Thank you for talking to us today. Thanks for having me. So many messages from all of you today. Thank you for your company. When I mentioned about Sian getting motion-censored lights

to deal with the fact her husband wasn't turning off the lights when he went to the loo, especially at night, I believe she was saying, a message came in saying, lol, you reminded me of my 97-year-old father-in-law in hospital, first learning he had to wave his arms around to stop the lights going out in the en suite it was such a talking point i suspect nobody ever considered how much slower a 97 year old might move radio is all about creating pictures with words you've helped me do that enormously this morning and a real debate amongst you about whether a specific minister

for women is necessary thank Thank you for your views. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.