Woman's Hour - Will a woman lead the UN? Play 1536, Bra fitting

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

In its 80-year history, no woman has ever held the role of United Nations Secretary-General. The race for the job, which happens every 10 years, began in January and the candidates have recently appeared in their one and only TV debate. Four people are currently in the running, two of whom are female. But should it matter if the top job goes to a woman? Nuala McGovern discusses with Susana Malcorra, former Chief of Staff to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon and founder of GWL Voices, which stands for Global Women Leaders, and Ben Donaldson, advisor to 1 For 8 Billion, a campaign group calling for an open, inclusive and merit-based selection process to appoint a woman as Secretary-General. Nuala speaks to actors Liv Hill and Tanya Reynolds, stars of the new West End play 1536. Set in Tudor England, the drama follows three young women in Essex as they grapple with the shockwaves of Anne Boleyn’s execution. Through the stories of Jane, Anna and Mariella, the play explores how events at the Royal court ripple through ordinary lives, and what the fall of a queen means for women far beyond the palace walls.It has been called 'a last ditch reset', 'a very important moment' and 'the speech of his career'. That's the speech that Prime Minister Keir Starmer is giving today as he tries to convince Labour MPs he's the right man for the job after heavy election losses last week. One of those listening is Labour backbencher Catherine West who, if still dissatisfied after hearing him, says she will send out an email and attempt to trigger a leadership contest. Meanwhile Angela Rayner put out a 1000-word statement yesterday, warning that the party’s current approach isn’t working and it needs to change. Joining Nuala to discuss what the political landscape looks like for women after the elections is BBC political correspondent Alicia McCarthy and Dr Annabel Mullin, Director of communications at Elect Her, an organisation that works to get women into elected office. M&S have announced that following a successful trial they are ditching the measuring tape for bra fittings. Other underwear retailers have done this for years, but how does it work fitting a bra by eye? Nuala is joined by Joanna Wakefield-Scurr, Professor of Biomechanics at Portsmouth University, and virtual bra fitter Katie Weir.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, this is Newellamogarine, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, it has been called a last ditch reset, a very important moment, and the speech of his career that is getting underway in the next few minutes as the Prime Minister, Kirstarmer, tries to convince Labour MPs that he's the right man for the job after heavy election losses last week. Well, one of those listening is Labour backbencher Catherine West, who, if still dissatisfied,

after hearing him, says she will put out an email and attempt to trigger a leadership contest. She's also said that Labor needs some senior women to step forward. Who could that be? And what does the political landscape look like for women after the elections? We'll talk about all of that. There's another selection process underway that we'll also discuss this hour. Who will become the next Secretary-General of the United Nations?

Now, we won't know until late 2026, but some believe it should be a woman. If it was, it would be a first. They also say there are calls for a change in how that appointment is decided. So we'll hear a little bit more about that process and some of the people who are running. We're also going to travel back to the Tudor era, 1536, to be precise. The execution of Ambulin sends shockwaves and consequences to three women living in Essex. It is told in gripping detail in the play 1536. Two of its stars will be with me in the studio.

Now I realise in 1536, you may. have been laced up in a corset. But even now, in 2026, our bras can feel restrictive, even uncomfortable. Maybe we're wearing the wrong size, but it's so hard to know what is the right one. In the name of research, I pulled out my most comfortable bras. Here are some of the sizes. 34B, 34C, 34C, 34D, 36C, along with a medium large and even an extra large bra. So what is going on?

Marks at Spencer have decided to do bra fittings by eyeballing instead of using the tape measure. But how does that work exactly? We're going to find out. And I'd also like to know your relationship to your bra size. Have you figured it out? Was it a fitting? Is it trial and error?

Share your tips. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 037. 100-400-44. We'll chat about it all later in the programme. But let me begin with the Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starrmer.

He is giving a major speech as he tries to head off a leadership challenge after Labour's heavy election losses on Thursday. That was in England, Scotland and Wales. Now, he's expected to argue that incremental change is no longer enough and to promise bolder action, including rebuilding relations with the European Union. The speech comes amid threats of a leadership challenge. And there are two women that have been at the heart of it over the weekend. The Labour MP, Catherine West, preparing to seek backing to trigger a leadership challenge.

And Angela Rainer putting out a thousand-word statement yesterday, warning that the party's current approach is not working and it needs to change. Well, joining me first is the BBC political correspondent, Alicia MacArthur. Good morning, Alicia. Thank you for joining me. What are we expecting from this speech? So we are expecting Kier Stama to be on his feet. literally in the next couple of minutes, I can just see someone on their feet giving the introduction

before he stands up. We know a little bit about what he's expected to say. So he's going to talk about putting Britain at the heart of Europe. He's going to say that incremental change won't cut it. That's a takeaway from the election results, I think. And he will face up to the big challenges that the country faces. So expect him to talk about the next steps of his plan and what he wants to do in the next few days and weeks. And we're expecting him to say something about strength through fairness and to see those values played out in the King's speech, which is coming up on Wednesday.

And that's the bit where the government sets out all the bills that it wants to put into law in the next year or so. So maybe in that on Wednesday, we will see some tangible signs of what all this might mean. Let's talk about the pressure that is on him. Catherine West, I alluded to their Labour MP for Hornsey and Free and Barnet, she vowed to launch a leadership challenge herself today if she was unconvinced by Kirstarmer's plan.

Tell me a little bit more about what we know about why she's decided to do this in such a public manner. Yeah, this is really interesting. So Catherine West, I think it's fair to say, not perhaps a household name. She is a former junior foreign office minister, so she has been in government in some capacity. In essence, yes, what she's saying is

she's not bidding realistically to be the leader herself or to be the prime minister, but what she is hoping to do is to trigger a contest, aiming to sort of flush out the heavyweights, if you like, who might stand in this. And as you rightly alluded to in her introduction, raising that question of, well, where are the women in all of this? Now, let's not forget, in order to get a nomination and to go forward into a leadership contest, you have to be endorsed by 81 MPs. That's about a fifth of the current total. Catherine West has got 10 so far. And we have have around about just over. over 30 so far who've actually called for Kea Starma to go.

So there is a long way to go to meet that barrier. And I don't think realistically that Catherine West is expecting that she will hit it. But what she's very much hoping to do is just put a bit of a spark under someone else's feet. And some of those sparks were flying. She was on the Laura Cunzberg, BBC One show yesterday. She said, why are all the men better than women, question mark, obviously tongue and cheek? We need some senior women to step forward and to challenge. But are there many poised?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, obviously the name that everybody talks about if you're looking at women who might stand is Angela Raina, the former deputy prime minister. And again, as you alluded to it in your introduction there, she put out this very strongly worded 1,000-word statement the other day, talking about this being Kea Stama's last chance, you know, calling on him to meet the moment

and saying that, you know, if we don't take more action to tackle inequality, and deal with squeezed living standards, in essence, she was saying, you know, there's going to be real problems. So, again, not actually calling for him to go, not actually endorsing Andy Burnham, but saying it was a mistake not to bring him back. So, yeah, Angela Raina is the name that's always talked about. But when we do talk about Angela Rainer, of course,

the thing that always comes up is that as yet, her tax issues in regard to the flat that she bought have not yet been resolved. Now, who else might there be? Well, there's nobody else in the cabinet, or there's nobody in the cabinet who's clearly putting themselves forward. I mean, would the party look at somebody like Yvette Cooper, the Foreign Secretary? She's had a crack at running for the leadership before. Would they look at somebody like Shabana Mahmood, who's the Secretary of State for Home Affairs?

Maybe they might look at her, but again, not an obvious figure, really. So there are some senior women, you know, Liz Kendall, another one, who's currently the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, She's also stood for Labour's leadership in the past. Or what about somebody like Lisa Nandy, Culture Media and Sports Secretary? And again, has always sort of spoken up and spoken a lot about the towns in the UK and how sometimes they feel neglected.

So there are people who might say, well, I've got a reason to stand or I've got enough authority and experience to stand. But at the moment, there's no sign of them doing so. So you mention Angela Rainer. I mean, it's interesting. People are trying to understand exactly, the political landscape when it comes to women following these local elections as well.

The Green Party has often been quoted. Do you think it's fair to say that the success of the Green Party in some parts of England has been driven by high-profile wins from female candidates? Really difficult to say. I mean, obviously, you know, the Green Party is led by Zach Polanski, and it's thought that a lot of that, or I should say the Green Party in England and Wales, of course, is led by Zach Polansky, who's been seen. as this charismatic figure who's come along and taken over and led the party since Caroline Lucas stepped down as leader and has led it in a very different direction. So how much of it is down to him, of course, we don't really know. But, you know, all the parties, I'm sure, will be looking to see what they can do to improve their offer to women. And I think, you know, you can see that in Kirstama's decision to bring Harriet Harmon back into the fold and to, you know, appoint her to this job in regard to women and girls and making that an appointment.

So that I think is an interesting choice. And I think that possibly in some way deals with this criticism that's been coming his way about the whole Peter Mandelson affair. Because Harriet Harmon certainly has been one of those who's been saying, well, how on earth did this happen? How did nobody in that room think about women? And if you had somebody in that room who'd thought about women, you perhaps wouldn't have appointed Peter Mandelson in the first place. So, you know, I think there is definitely an understanding that perhaps that needs to be. heard a bit more? So I do have some figures here actually. They're from the

Democracy Club's estimates of candidate gender for English local elections. So these are the percentages of women holding seats by party for local elections in England. And there's quite a disparity here between the party. So ranging from around 20

to 40%. So let's say Labour Party 41%, Green Party 40. And if I go down, reform would be 21%. Is that what you'd expect? Well, I think certainly reform is a very interesting case. I mean, I think it has always been seen as quite male.

But equally last year, it did launch their Women for Reform campaign, focused on the safety and security of women and girls. And it does have some high-profile female figures in it. I mean, Dame Andrea Jenkins, former MP, former Conservative MP, who's now the mayor of Greater Lincolnshire, and Sarah Pochin, of course, who's one of their handful of MPs in the House of Commons. So it does have some high-profile female. figures, but I'm sure it would like to have a few more.

Interesting. As we talk about, as we go across the nations, Elinid Morgan became Wales's first female, our female first minister, I should say. That was in the summer of 2024. But she made history on Friday, perhaps not in the way she would like to, becoming the first leader of a government in the UK

to lose her seat while in office as her administration and Labour were widely rejected by voters. She resigned as well. Labour leader within minutes off her defeat. How do you understand that? Yeah, it's an interesting one. I mean, you don't have to think back very far to the point where we had women in charge

in the devolved parliaments and assemblies a few years ago because we had Nicholas Sturgeon, for example, in Scotland. And after her resignation, she was replaced by a man. So there has been a real sort of, you know, flow away and a difference in an ebb and flow and who's in charge. So, yeah, Ellen Ed Morgan, well, I mean, she had to go. Labour having such a disastrous night in Wales down to just, I think it's nine seats there, in the newly expanded Welsh Parliament.

So, you know, a very bad night for them and she's lost her seat. That's bad news for her. And it will be a question of who the runners and riders are to replace her. And I'll speak about that in a moment for Dr. Annabel Mullen as well. But I want to go back to Harriet Harmon that you mentioned a moment ago as well. She will be the Prime Minister's advisor on women and girls focusing on tackling violence. violence and improving economic opportunities. What has the response to that been?

And I'm wondering, I don't know, how much weight does it have or help, for example, for Sir Kirste Stamer? Yeah, I think the appointment of her and Gordon Brown, I mean, you can see in some ways what Kier Starmour was trying to do, is trying to tackle two big issues that he wants to deal with. He's always talked about how tackling violence against women and girls is a real priority for him. So bringing Harriet Harmon in to do that and bringing Giackeye and he's.

and bringing Gordon Brown in to be his special advisor on global finance and to deal with some of the big issues facing the country in terms of its finances and finding a way to fund defence. So you can see what he's doing. I mean, Harriet Harmon, I thought the interesting bit of this was, as well as working with ministers to tackle violence against women and girls, it's also about improving job prospects and increasing representations in Parliament and in public life.

So her job is quite wide-ranging, and it is on top of the job that she was given a year or so, ago a special envoy for women and girls to champion gender equality worldwide. So he's bringing her in to sort of oversee that whole area of policy. How well is this going down? Well, that's a very good question. I mean, is it really what Labour MPs want to see Kea Stama change to shore up his position? Kier Stama obviously thinks that this is very important, but, you know, Labor MPs who've been out there canvassing on the doorsteps will be interesting to see what their reaction is to this and How they think it looks, because these are very senior figures.

Let's not forget Harriet Harmon did stand in as actual leader of the Labour Party at two points in its recent history. So there's no denying that she is a senior and important figure in the party. The question is, is it the look that is going to cut through and is going to change some of those comments that are coming back to Labour MPs when they're out and about talking to their communities? Alicia McCarthy, BBC political correspondent. Thank you so much. I know you'll need to get back to that speech. We very much appreciate your time. Well, let me turn to Dr. Annabel Mullen,

Director of Communications at Elect Her. That's an organisation that works to get women into elected office. So we mentioned Wales there. You've been looking at the number of women candidates in local elections, Wales, and also in Scotland. But let's start with Wales. What were you expecting? What have you seen? Thank you so much for having me.

We, as an organisation, we support women. and we've had 360-odd candidates run in these elections across the different nations. And what we saw kind of prior to the election, we mapped all the candidate figures, is that we could see that the Senate was only had 38% women. And that, you know, was a slight increase on 21, but, you know, it still feels quite low. And that's very reflective of different parties and how they do it.

So, you know, certain parties, broadly those who sit on the left have more women than those that sit on the right. In Scotland, we also saw that overall it was down from 37% last time to 35%. Different parties filling vastly different numbers. Reform had 72% men versus 28% women. And then Labor, you're looking much more of an even split. And then in the locals, as it was just being mentioned, we could see it was down again from last year in 25. It was at 33%, which still isn't great. And this year, down to 31.

So, you know, there's this sort of continual slow decline is effectively what we've kind of seen across the candidacy piece. And I suppose you are there thinking about how can this change or what some of the levers you might have. Now, Plac Cumbery, they do use quotas. their selection of candidates making a difference? Yes, it's made a huge difference. And in fact, the context of this election and obviously applied doing so well, it was quite hard to judge completely prior to the election, how it was going to sort of unfold. We were concerned that if it had shifted a slightly different way, we would have seen a lot

less women, but actually as a consequence of applied doing so well and their quotas and their focus on women candidates. We've got a 47% Senate, which is fantastic. It's not back to where it has been. I mean, in 2003, the Senate was the first in the world. So with that, I mean, what have you learned that needs to happen if there is to be more parity? So, I mean, there's lots of barriers. We've mapped all of them and we've got, you know, a number of different levers. Obviously, there's great complexity around kind of different levels of government and local, national, regional politics. But it is clear from the

Scottish elections in 21, from the applied, Cumbary success this time, that if parties focus on women candidates, you improve outcomes. Parties are a huge problem and barrier to selection for lots of different reasons. Opape party processes, putting women off. I mean, you know, that's one piece of the kind of puzzle, then obviously you've got the other pieces of the puzzle. Online harm is a really big issue and we spend a lot of time supporting our candidates, managing it and dealing with it. Internal party processes are not great at dealing with online harm. The police have just introduced Operation Ford, which helps candidates manage when things happen. And again, it's sort of, you know, relatively effective depending on the area you're in. There's a lot of training

needed. And then when people actually get into office, you've got lots of problems in terms of retention. And the reason being is, you know, parties are problematic about how they manage when things go wrong. I mean, it all comes down to the sort of sense of people are in office, just like the Church of England. They're not in a role or a job that has HR or employment rights in the same way. So you're sitting in a very different shape of. So the structure, the infrastructure around it, perhaps and some of the systems not being there. Really interesting. Dr. Annabel Mullen, Director of Communications at Electhor,

thank you very much for speaking to us this morning on Women's Hour. We'll be talking about another process a little later. That for UN Secretary General, could there be the first woman to take on that role? We'll have a chat about that. But before that, let us go back in time. It's 1536. The year Ambulin was executed. Now, most of us know that moment from history books.

But 1536 is also the title of a new play that asks what that event meant for ordinary women living miles away from London. The production, which is just transferred to the West End, follows Jane, Anna and Mariella, three young women in Essex, and explores how the downfall of a queen begins to shape their everyday lives.

Well, with me in studio, I'm delighted to say, are two of the play stars, Liv Hill and Tanya Reynolds. Good morning. Morning. Lovely to see both of you. You look quite different when I last saw you. On stage.

You're both very welcome. Let us start, Tudor England, a period that many learn about in school, brutal in many ways. Liv, perhaps I'll start with you. Why did this particular telling of this story appeal to you? I think just when I read it for the first time, I was blown away as each of us were. I read it in one sitting and I just said to myself, in any shape or form I need to be a part of this project, even if it's like a technician in the background. It's just a brilliant, brilliant story.

And I think because we all learn about the Tudors at school, I mean, I always found Tudor history very dry at school. But it's just a complete retelling. Ava Pickett, the writers done this extraordinary thing in making it so relatable. How would we describe it? Ava has been here, I'm delighted to say as well. She was back on when she was on about the retelling of Emma.

She's fantastic. She's a woman in her early 30s that is just blowing things. up, I feel, on stage. It's really fast-paced. Can we try and give people an idea of what they could expect to live, and then I'll turn to you, Tanya. Oh, from the... In the sense of, it's like,

almost like a really fast-paced tennis match if we come to the dialogue. You know, it might be... If people think 1536, they think like a historical... Yeah, I mean, no, exactly. It's completely... It feels so modern in its dialogue and so current, and I think that's what makes it so... Ava's not, she's putting so many of these political ideas in this play,

but it's never shoving it or forcing it down you. It, you, it seeps into your paws because it's just so witty and sharp and electric. They're really good words to describe it. Tanya, let me turn to you. So we have these three great friends, Anna, Jane and Mariella. I'm actually kind of afraid of live, if I'm honest. She's Jane. She's like this very nice slash evil character in it.

You look slightly different now sitting opposite me. But the news of Ambulin's downfall impacts these women severely. We never actually see Anne, which I was wondering would I see her at the beginning. But tell me a little bit of what that's like to kind of have this presence looming in the back while you're playing in front. Well, yeah, like Ambelin is like one of the main characters in the play, I guess, but you never see her. And it's it's just kind of, it's an imagining of what I, what women, what how women in like a rural town would have digested this news that came from London and come from the courts and they'd get the news, you know, a couple of days later. Yeah. And as we know, like gossip is like it was a survival tactic for women.

And it's these three women meeting. up every day in a field to share information and to try and protect each other and yeah it was it's uh yeah

something that's referenced a lot is that type of girls so there's Anna Liv and Mariella how would you describe your character Tanya Mariella there Mariella she's she's I mean she's a midwife

and she's really good at it and she's she's carrying an awful lot of pain. She's kind of heavy with pain, with this heartbreak that she's suffered. And I think because of that, she's actually quite, she's probably the more level-headed of the three of them. And she's the sort of, she tries to be the kind of neutral party between Anna and Jane's like fireiness. and she's very, she's that friend that's like when everyone's freaking out, she's like,

calm. It's fine. It doesn't matter. It's not going to affect. How's it going to affect us? And live instead, your character, Jane. Interesting. Yeah, she's full of contradictions.

At the beginning, we discover her and she's this innocent, good girl. Yeah. Very sweet, irresistible. And then as the play goes on, I mean, all her choices come out of fear. and they can be really ugly choices. So I think that's what I found so interesting about her and it also has helped me question like, oh, do I really want to be the good girl at any cost?

Like, do I want to conform with what society asks of women in order to fit in or do I want to raise my head above the parapet in a sense? So yeah, incredibly rich characters. And it is, of course, a tale of survival. as well. There is also your third character of course is very important which is Anna

who is more open sexually and that really leaves her open to potentially getting killed Tanya. Yeah yeah Anna is I mean she's just gorgeous she's just fiery

she's she's muscular and sensual and she feels everything and she feel it's like her It's like she has no skin. She feels everything so intensely. And she pays the price for it, you know, essentially. She's that woman.

She's that type of woman that we are, our characters are warned against, you know, girls like Anna. Yeah. And I think Henry V8, like, basically putting his own wife on trial and then eventually beheading her almost emboldens the men of society to start to target that type of woman and start to be violent against women, which feels incredibly prevalent now.

Yeah, and I should say Sienna Kelly plays her brilliantly as well. The trio of you on stage is compelling and electrifying. But I think with that, because these things that are happening to women and the consequences and if something is sanctioned at a top level of authority or government and what might those consequences be for the women who are further down the hierarchy, you don't say it outright on stage,

but I could feel everybody around me thinking, what does this mean in a day-to-day context? Yeah, when you think about the people in our media, politicians and people of power who are openly misogynistic and have even in some case to be proven to be violent against women, and also, you know, the power of social media and the misogyny rising on social media and how that is influencing our society.

I mean, we can feel it changing. I feel like we can feel it changing the dialogue, what we're talking about. It just feels like really urgent storytelling. Yeah, I mean, I think there's one part in it, and I would urge people to go and see it 1530. It blew me away. It was amazing.

That how people are influenced to their point of view about how a friend can influence somebody, I suppose that's the same now or we might talk about social media influencing people but that plays out on stage that people can be on the fence about how they feel about something how a woman is

or what she deserved or didn't deserve so it's very applicable to current days while I was watching it I wanted to tell you as well any time I went quiet I hear somebody behind me like various we go oh my gosh it's a very gas

people. A lot of gasping, a lot of sniffling. Yes. Yes. But it's great because I feel like that feeds us

when we're on that stage makes us feel like yeah, and it's just going to continue. While I have you because there's lots of other work you've done as well, of course. Tanya,

you may be known from sex education. You played Lily who was very into aliens. You're in the other Bennett sister, Caroline Bingley. Unlikable, judgmental. Take a few tips from Livson.

as she plays Jane. What sort of roles do you find the most fun to play? I mean, do you know what? Caroline Bingley is actually like, she's, I have such a soft spot for playing like haughty, prickly posh women that have like a gooey centre that they'd rather die than let anyone see. And I think it's because I, when I was little, I was obsessed with Margot Ledbetter in the good life.

played by Panad of Keith. I was obsessed with that character. I was too a bit. She was so funny. And she was just like, to me, the absolute epitome of like a character. And I think I've, oh, I love playing just awful posh women. And Caroline Bingley, I mean, the absolute epitome of that. I mean, you have such range.

And you too live, because people may remember, it's 10 years since you were filming for three girls. And that really expose the Rochester. Grooming scandal, brought it to national attention. I mean, what age were you when you were doing that? Oh, 16. Wow, okay. You're again in a trio of women looking at these themes of violence against women and girls.

And I'm just wondering, it must have been a very, I suppose, pivotal role. And also probably must have informed you so much, even though you were so young in what you decided to do afterwards. Exactly. It set the benchmark of the title. of the quality of work I want to tell and the stories I'd love to be a part of. I mean, on a personal note, doing three girls 10 years ago this summer and then doing this story 10 years later this summer. It feels very special for me.

And essentially, the story centers on three women and is basically saying it's about the patriarchal and misogynistic institutions that care more about strengthening their own power, than protecting women. In the play, it's Henry V8 as the institution, and in three girls it was the police and the social services. And they both victim blame, basically, and say that these women,

their exploitation was by themselves. I mean, when I watch either of those, I can have a rage within me. And I'm just wondering what it's like for you that's embodying some of those characters. I mean, look, as an actor, is amazing to be part of this and you feel like you're

you can feel the rage and express it all the rage that you can't express in real life it just feels like such a privilege to be basically part of this and I think at 16 I didn't realise how important and vital that type of work is and as a 26 year old now

I can look back and think wow how what an honour to be part of work like that and part of work like this now. This play was in the Almada, then it moved to the ambassadors, as I mentioned. Tanya, do you ever, the three of you must be pretty tight by now, I'm thinking, still surprise each other? I mean, every night I am completely blown away by them. Before I go, I mean, we are completely obsessed with each other.

I'm like, it is such a privilege to share a stage with these two women. Every night before I come on stage, I have to hide behind a bush, and I just listened to Liv and Sienna doing the first scene and I'm just sat there being absolutely delighted. And we dissing my friend. And it just kind of like removes all nerves because you're just listening to this brilliant play read by these like brilliant actresses.

And it's such a joy to perform and we laugh. We've had the best time. Last night I forgot a line on stage. Awful, horrendous, so nerve-wracking. And I looked at those two in their eyes and I was like, they've got me. It's fine. What happens in that instance?

Just panic, panic attack. But did you pick up? No, we were both sort of staring at you, like trying to figure out how to get you out of it, but you actually got yourself out of it really well. My character, she loses her words quite easily. It was actually perfect. Yeah, she's always a little stoppy-starty, yeah.

I have to say, there go I, but for the grace of God. So lovely having both of you. And I know it's going to run, and everybody goes to see it. is coming out a little bit shell-shocked but loving it as well. Because it's funny. That's the thing we have to say. It kind of hits hard, but absolutely brilliant.

Congratulations, David Pickett as well. 1536 is on, as I mentioned, the Ambassadors Theatre in London until the 1st of August. Front Row will be reviewing the play on their programme. That will be on Thursday. But I want to thank both my guests, Liv Hill and Tanya Reynolds for coming in early this morning after a late night last night. Thank you very much. Now, I want to move on. We were talking about selection procedures.

Antonio Gutierrez, the Secretary General of the United Nations, will be replaced at the end of the year when his 10 years in office is up. The UN is dedicated to maintaining international peace, security and human rights, as you may know. But despite those goals, the UN has not appointed a female leader in its 80-year history. So four people are currently in the running to replace Gutierrez, two of whom are female, should it matter if this role goes to a man or a woman. Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Susanna Malcora, former Chief of Staff to the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon

and founder of GWL Voices, which stands for Global Women Leaders. And with me in the studio is Ben Donaldson. He's advisor to 1 for 8 billion, who are a campaign group, calling for an open, inclusive and merit-based selection process to appoint a woman as Secretary General. You're both very welcome.

Susanna, let me start with you. Thank you very much, first of all, for joining us all the way from Argentina at an early hour. I mentioned you were chief of staff working at the very top of the organisation. Can you tell us why the role of Secretary General matters? Well, good morning to you and to your audience.

Thanks for having me. Well, it matters because the UN is a very complex organization. It means a lot of things. You describe it very succinctly in your introduction. And in order to bring together all those complex parts of the UN, including the relationship with governments and member states, particularly in crisis times, the head of the institution is fundamental. And that is what the Secretary General is.

Some people believe that the Secretary General has no power. I totally disagree with that. It has a different type of power. It doesn't have armies. It doesn't have a strong power. But it has a strong, soft power, the capacity to convene, to persuade, to build bridges, and to coordinate among so many different parts of the institution itself. So it is fundamental who is there, particularly in this very dire times that we are living through.

Now, you ran, my understanding is, back in 2016 for Secretary General yourself. How would you describe the process? Well, first it's an honor. You know, you feel very honored to have the opportunity to be one of the options. to become Secretary General. I indeed competed with Secretary General Gutierrez and the three co-founders

of GWOVoices, the three of us run, Helen Clark, Irina Bokova and I. And, you know, it was an amazing time. It was a time when the organization that Ben leads and works for was one for $7 billion.

You know, now it's one for $8 billion. There was a time when it was obvious that it was going to be Secretary General after 70 years of having only men. It was a time when the battle was there and the strength that this was going to be a woman and there were seven women candidates. And it felt like it. It felt like, yeah, it is indeed.

And it was thrilling. It was really energetic. And all of a sudden, the doors closed behind the Security Council. And the Security Council came together to take decisions in the same, all-fashioned behind closed doors and without us understanding what was happening. And guess what? A man was chosen. And it was very frustrating. And I used the word frustrating in purpose because it was not so frustrating for me not to get it. Of course, I was frustrated. When you run, you want to win. But you know that you stand a chance to lose. It was frustrating that not a single out of seven

women that had all the qualifications you can think of, could make it to the top. And so it proved to me that the ceiling was very, very, very strong. And it was probably more than crystal. It was still. So I'm interested, though. You talk about the closed doors. Ben, let me throw over to you. I mean, with the process, what is it that's wrong with it?

I think what Suzanne has described is two parts of a process. It's a long old process as well when I was looking at it. It goes on really all year. It starts off with a degree of transparency. So we have these hearings in the General Assembly where the candidates have to give their speech in front of 193 countries. Civil society are there asking them questions. But then that took place this time around in April, in late April.

And then after this, it kind of goes back into the shadows. This is a very, very secretive process. And right now what's happening, we have four candidates. And between now and the end of July, they're speaking to the most powerful countries in the world. They have to trot around the world going to different capitals. And no one knows what goes on in those meetings. So we've had the light shined on the process. We've had that bit.

And it's now starting to go back into the shadows. And what Susanna was describing, the business end of the process. Really, that happens entirely in the shadows. And what we're trying to do as a campaign is open that up. Who are the four candidates? while we shine a light briefly. Yep. So there's four candidates. It's worth pointing out that last time around there were 10 at this stage.

It's such a political tightrope for them. But this time around, it's incredibly difficult. There are four candidates. We've got Michelle Bachelet. She's the former president of Chile and former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. So her platform is on global self-decision making. She sees conflict prevention as a primary.

role of the Secretary General, and she really wants to strengthen the UN's mediation capacity. We've got Rebecca Grinspan. She was the former vice president of Costa Rica. She's currently in charge of the UN Conference on Trade and Development, but she's actually paused that role right now. So to not to give any sort of perception of conflict of interest. One of the things she's famous for was negotiating the Black Sea Grain Initiative, which enabled commercial shipping to start traveling through the Black Sea. working with Ukraine and Russia and mediating between those.

And then we have Rafael Grossi, a former Argentinian diplomat and currently the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency. He wants to leave from the front as a mediator that sort of a rise into conflict zone and reasserts the UN's role. He hasn't stepped down from his current employment as this head of the IAEA,

despite the fact the General Assembly has kind of said, you know, you want to consider doing this because it could be give you an advantage. And then the last candidate is Maci Sal, former president of Senegal. He was nominated by Burundi. His focus is on restoring trust and being an impartial secretary general. He highlights the need for like development, debt relief, climate finance. His vision statement doesn't mention human rights, which has caused a lot of questions from civil society. And with one for a billion year group, you are calling for a gendered outcome, a female leader?

That's correct. Why the change? We are back in 2016, when, as Susanna described, there were seven women running. We thought that the time was ripe and it's high time for a woman, SG. But actually, we didn't get that. That did not happen. And you had male candidate after male candidate saying, well, I am not a woman, but I am a feminist man. and it felt like that that was the moment for a change,

but it didn't happen. So this time round, we're noting the way that merit is constructed and the sort of gendered ways that this is constructed actually shows there's a lot of barriers and we need to kind of work and overcome those barriers. I'm focusing on that word merit, Susanna. One of the men currently running for the role, we don't know which one, told a journalist in France 24

that the most qualified candidate should be the next leader. You agree with that? Or how do you see it? We've heard Ben's thoughts with his campaign on that it should have a woman who chosen. Well, I don't think there is a contradiction there. I think that women are going to be the most qualified candidates. You know, there is this sense which really worries me

that when you speak about a woman, then the question of merit comes into play. Like if there is a contradiction, I will assume that in the last eight years, Secretary General Tavvin chosen by merit, they were men, but I assume they were chosen by merit. Why bring it to the fore now when there is such a strong sense that it should be a woman? I believe that women will play based on merit. We are most of the time when we are selected or elected for a position, we need to strive for more. We need to show that we are above the average, that we are above what is coming. So merit is not an issue.

And there is not a contradiction between women and merit at all. On the contrary, I think it's a perfect thing to say we are going to be the ones to come to the fore based on merit. It's an interesting one. When I was just looking at it, preparing for this interview, it is interesting of, you know, you might have the backing of a certain country or you might. You could be Michelle Batchelah and not have the backing of your own country if your politics or your outlook worldview

is different to that, even off your home country. So it is such a political tightrope, I think, was the words that Ben was using there. But I'm wondering, Susanna, we've heard about glass ceilings. You mentioned you hit it. There's glass cliffs when women are brought in to fix something that is pretty much unfixable.

Some might say that is, is what the new, whoever it will be, Secretary General, will be looking at. And then there's also a leaky pipeline, some say, at the top of politics and diplomacy for women. Do you want to describe what that is? Well, first, let me talk about the glass cliff, because a lot of people, a lot of people say that maybe it's not the right time for a woman to be at the helm of the United Nations, because it's such a difficult time. Well, first, I'm an optimist.

I think this is a time where we need to do the most to revitalize and bring the UN to the place where it should be, play the role it should play. So it's for us women to make it happen. I don't see that as a glass cliff. The leaky part that you refer to the leaky pipeline. Pipeline is that shows that women are left behind as things move. forward, you know, we lose women. And in fact, when you look into politics and we do a lot of analysis in politics, more and more you see that women are maybe coming and, you know, after round, they just leave the politics. And this has to do a lot with the strong pressure that

is put on women and women leaders, particularly through social media. There is such a horrible treatment to women at large that you lose women in the pipeline. It's interesting that you say that because I feel it's echoing what I was hearing in my first discussion on this program. We were talking about the local elections that have taken place across the UK and the lack of at times candidates, female candidates going forward or being retained, for example, as their careers continue. I'm curious, Susanna, let's take a look back for a moment. We're not going all the way back to 1536 as I did with the previous item. But with this 10 years ago, what would you have done differently to Mr. Gutierrez, do you think, if you had got the role? Well, you know, reading the news with the Monday newspaper is easy to assume what would have done different.

I think that Mr. Gutierrez and are very different. And maybe that's the reason why he was choosing and I was not choosing, you know. I think that the most important part is to be there where you are needed, to be present where you are needed. And this doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to fix the problem, but showing that you are at the place where things are happening, where crises are taking place, where things are going wrong is very important. And for me, that would have been my main theme throughout 10 years of,

so many different crises where the people have the sense that the UN is sort of absent. Interesting. I do not have a response from the United Nations. We did contact them for a statement, but we haven't heard back yet. But I want to thank my guests that we did have on this morning. That is Susanna Malcora, former chief of staff to the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and founder of GWL Voices. And I also want to thank Ben Donaldson, advisor to one for eight billion,

who is with the campaign group calling for a more inclusive appointment process. Thanks to both of you for coming in. Thank you very much. Thank you. So many of you have got in touch about your bras. Here's one. I used to be a bra fitter. It was one of the best jobs I ever had.

Most women didn't know what size they were or were wearing the wrong size. A well-fitted bra can change your silhouette. Make your clothes fit better. Reduce back pain. Improve posture. Give confidence. I would love to set up. Oh, God, I get this.

A mobile fitting service, as I feel there is still a great demand for a good bra fit service that covers all brands, but I feel it would be a struggle to hold the stock needed in order to provide a successful service. Very interesting. A lot of comments. I was 38B, I think. Then two years ago, I had heart surgery, and since then, I can't bear having anything around my ribs. I feel claustrophobic, so uncomfortable after letting everything sag for it. a year. I've now resorted to wearing stretchy tops, some which have cups. Bras are made for

missteps to be patient. Perhaps it's time for something comfy to be developed for heart patients. So many bras cling under the boobs and roll down or up. I'd rather be wearing nothing, says Sally and Devon. 844, if you'd like to get in touch as many if you have this morning. Thank you. Marks and Spencer, this is why I'm talking about it. Marks and Spencer have announced that following a successful trial, they are ditching the measuring tape for bra fittings. Other underwear retailers have been doing this for years But how does it work fitting a bra by eye Instead of by tape measure?

Well, here to explain the science and practice are Joanna Wakefield Skir Professor of Biomechanics at Portsmouth University And virtual bra fitter Katie Weir Good morning to both of you. Good morning! Joanna, shall I start with you? You are also a trained bra fitter.

What are the benefits of looking as opposed to measuring with a tape? Well, for me, it's all about empowering women to understand their bra size, to understand whether a bra fits them appropriately. And so doing that by eye, visibly being able to check key pointers on the bra, empowers women to be able to do that themselves in their own home. So they can look at bras that they've had in their drawer for three years and decide whether it still fits them or not.

Okay, well, Katie, what are you looking for? What are some of the pointers you're looking for? We're all going to be doing this now when we go home. Absolutely. So the backband of a bra, the underband of a bra, is one of the biggest identifiers as to whether that bra fits you well enough. A backbrand, you're talking about the bit where the clasp is at the back. Yeah, the underband, so the bottom of the bra.

So a lot of women can pull that backband very far away from their body. Now, that is a huge sign that your bra is ill-fitting because what we're looking for is actually a much firmer band. 80% of your bra support comes from that band to lift up your boobs. So we're looking for a firm band. We like to call it a two-finger tension in the bra world. So it should only be able to pull away with two fingers underneath the band less than an inch from your body.

And we're also wanting our cups to encapsulate our breast tissue. So if you're wearing an underwired bra... The whole breast tissue? Well, yes. We don't want any spillage from the side or the top. Even if it's in fashion. So there's a difference between fabulous. cleavage that can still be encapsulated within a cup without it kind of spilling over,

popping out. So we want that underband and also that cup to encapsulate the breast. And that means our underwire actually reaching much further back than a lot of us believe. And a lot of us are finding that our underwires are digging into breast tissue, which is causing that discomfort and that dislike towards underwires. But actually, it's because their cup size is far too small. Now, another thing that we can all do is pop our fingers underneath our bra strap on our shoulder, and see just how high we can pull that. And I bet a lot of you listening will be able to pull it up to her about your ear. And really what we want is, again, that two-finger tension.

So just to be able to pull that strap two fingers away from that shoulder. And all of these points are then having that bra anchored to your body. And anchorage is such a huge part of a perfectly fitting bra because it means it's lifting up the bust from the band without having a lot of your weight coming down on your shoulders. A lot of my clients have backache, neckache, poor posture and just very, a lot of discomfort. And they also find that in clothing, their clothes don't fit as well. And then they find a great fitting bra, which is supporting from the band.

And all of a sudden, their backache is kind of disappearing. Right. Lots of messages as I made. I went to M&S for some bras to go on holiday with. I hadn't bought any bras for quite a while. Picking up what I thought was my size, 34A, I try them on, no success. A fitter asked if I'd like her to help. I'd never had a bra fitting before. She just looked to me and returned with some bras that fitted beautifully.

They were at 36B. How on earth I've been squashing the girls into a 34A bra. I have no idea at all. Big shout out to all the bra fitters. They are amazing. So says Jules. But Joanna, let me come to you because I was reading out a ream of sizes that I found on my bras looking, everything from 34B to 36D, I think it was.

And I was like, how is this possible? Like there's cross-grading and sister-sizing. What is that? Why does it matter? Yeah, and I can understand for the consumer why it is quite challenging because the bra industry adopt what we call the cross-grading system. So essentially this means that all the bras that sit on one cross-grade have the same size cup or the same volume of breast tissue. So if I give you an example.

Yes. if you took a 34D bra into the changing room and the underband was too big but the cups fitted well then you would think a 34D you would think well the cups fit well so I must be a decup but the band's too tight so you would think I just need to go down a band but actually if you go down a band the cup volume also goes down a cup size and so this is what we call cisterising or the cross-grading. So if you're in that scenario, you've tried on a 34D, for example, and the underband is too big, but the cup fits well. You need to go down a band size, but up a cup size. So you would then, hopefully a 32 double D would be the right size for you. So it is confusing.

And this is the sister sizing process. So it's the sizes either side of your, of what you think might be your size. Those are the ones that you should take into the changing room and try on. Here's another. I'm endlessly frustrated by my 34-FF, 36G size. The expenses, the backache, the lifetime avoidance of impact sports. I'm now breastfeeding my seven-month-old baby, finding nursing bras, a whole new inadequate market.

Can somebody design a supportive nursing sports bra please? I just want to take my children to park run and show them that mums can run too. Well, what about that, Joanna? Because my understanding is you fitted sports bras for lionesses, bras for serving soldiers. And I think this woman is going into battle. She might need some help as well.

What would you say to her? Yeah, and I'm really pleased that that question has been asked because it's so important that we're providing appropriate support to the breast, particularly for larger breasted women and particularly for women who are nursing. There are actually some nursing sports bras that exist, whether they work for you. This is the challenge that we have with bras,

that it's all very individual. What works for you might not work for me. It depends on the activity that you're undertaking, depends on your shape, your size. But I just really encourage women to have a look at the market. There's a huge variety of solutions available, but it does take a bit of an effort. You have to really sort of commit the time

to having a look at what is out there. But it's really important that you are, protecting that breast tissue. So it is, because a lot of people, I think, through the bras during the pandemic and many of them didn't put them back on. Katie, when you're doing fittings by eye, do you ask women to wear a bra or a top or be naked? Or, you know, people might be wondering, because you do virtual bra fittings as well. Just not everybody wants to be on camera. Absolutely. And the reason for virtual bra fittings is because there can be a lot of blocks to

women making it into a store. Sure. So time poor, also having families, young children and also the confidence to actually go into a shop. So my virtual bath is you don't even have to leave your sofa or your bedroom. You can do it at home. Now, you keep your bra on. There is never any need for me to see your actual boobs without a bra. I always want to see how the current bra is fitting you. So what I will be asking you is what size that bra is. How long have you had that bra? We will also do the jiggle, scoop and swoop, which is a way that you put on your bra to ensure that your breast tissue is getting into the cups correctly.

And actually quite often you can be given the correct size, but if you aren't putting your bra on correctly, it will never feel as comfortable as it can. 15 seconds. How do we put our bras off correctly? Okay, so we lean forward, we hold the underwire or the bottom of the bra, and we jiggle our boobs in and push that band right up underneath the crease of our breast. We then hold the side of the bra away and reach all the way to the back of our armpit. And we're going to bring that breast tissue into the cup and lift up towards your face and do the same on the other side. The final part is the windscreen wiper where we just touch the top of the breast tissue and go up and out towards our armpit to ensure the breast tissue is clinging onto that top cup.

I've been doing it wrong for 40-something years. It's okay. So many of us have, but now you've found us. Well, I want to thank both my guests very much Joanna Wakefield Skir Also Katie Weir Thanks so much for joining us here on Women's Hour Tomorrow I'm going to be speaking to the singer Mina

She came to the UK from Iran as a refugee She's appearing in a new series, Your Song Also former England netball coach Tracy Neville Looking forward to speaking to her as well What about a corset? Gentle, constant hug, feeling secure, upward support for breasts So says Kath, I'll see you tomorrow That's all for today's Woman's Hour

Join us again next time Please welcome your Any Questions panel. Hello, I'm Alex Forsyth, host of Radio 4's Any Questions. If you don't know the program, this is what it's about. Every Friday, I'm joined by politicians, journalists and public figures who answer questions directly from a live audience, giving you real views, real challenges and real conversations about the issue shaping our lives. We take our lively debate to communities across the UK,

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