Woman's Hour - Winter Olympics; Ashling Murphy; Gender roles and parenting; Investing in female-founded companies

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

The Winter Olympics begin on 4th February in Beijing and Team GB will be sending around 50 athletes with the hopes of bringing back a clutch of medals. The run up to the Games has been challenging �� Covid has made competition extremely difficult for athletes and there have been diplomatic rows over China’s human rights records - but who are our medal prospects? Chloe Tilley speaks to Georgina Harland, Britain’s first ever female Chef de Mission and Lizzy Yarnold, Britain’s most successful Winter Olympian. On Wednesday afternoon, 23-year-old school teacher Ashling Murphy was murdered while jogging along the banks of the Grand Canal in Tullamore, Ireland. It is believed that she was assaulted and killed by a man acting alone. The case has shocked the nation and revived concerns about women’s safety in public spaces in Ireland and the UK. We speak to Irish Times reporter Jade Wilson and veteran activist Ailbhe Smyth, who spoke at a vigil for Ashling outside Irish parliament. Women diagnosed with cervical cell changes following cervical screening can be unprepared for the experience - they can feel ashamed, isolated and frightened, that's according to new research by Jo's Cervical Cancer Trust. Kate Sanger is head of policy, from the Trust. In a recent interview on Woman’s Hour one guest talked about the limits having a child has placed on her and said she’d “make a better father than mother”. We explore what motherhood and fatherhood mean and the gender roles parents take on in society today. Lawyer Lucy McGrath is the biological mother of a six year old. She’s also her family’s main bread winner and known as mum. Her wife is mummy and the full time care giver. Do same sex relationships model alternative parenting styles or simply replicate the same power dynamics in a different guise? Lucy joins Emma Barnett to discuss the issues with the academic Dr Charlotte Faircloth.£29.4 billion was invested into UK tech companies in 2021. A record amount. Yet female founded companies only saw 1.1% of it. Down from 2.4% in 2020. Why are female run businesses finding it so hard to get investment funding? Debbie Wasskow OBE, entrepreneur and founder of Allbright, and Samira Ann Qassim, founder of Pink Salt Ventures, explain some of the problems women founders face when starting-up businesses - including finding funding. Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Jade Wilson Interviewed Guest: Ailbhe Smyth Interviewed Guest: Georgina Harland Interviewed Guest: Lizzy Yarnold Interviewed Guest: Kate Sanger Interviewed Guest: Lucy McGrath Interviewed Guest: Dr Charlotte Faircloth Interviewed Guest: Debbie Wasskow Interviewed Guest: Samira Ann Qassim

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, welcome to the programme. Good to have your company. Now, you'll remember the name of Sarah Everard, a young woman who was murdered by a serving police officer whilst walking through London. Or Sabina Nessa, who was killed in a London park. Or Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman, also murdered by a stranger in a London park.

And sadly, the list goes on. Well, now another name joins theirs. That of Aisling Murphy, the 23-year-old woman murdered whilst out jogging in Tullamore Island. Reigniting conversations about women's safety in public spaces, a conversation that we'll be having shortly. We'll also be looking at a comment made on this programme recently by a guest. Now, Cathy Adams told us she didn't particularly enjoy the mothering experience and she would probably have made a better father than a mother. But what does that mean? Does our parenting still fall into those so-called traditional roles? What is a mother or a father

role? Are the lines becoming more blurred as more mothers work? And what are the expectations placed on us by ourselves, our partners and society? Well, I want to hear from you this morning. I want to hear your experiences. You can text us now on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate

on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. Now, as much as childcare or cooking might be distributed more evenly, what about the mental load? You know, remembering the PE kits, the birthday parties, does that still fall to women? And what about the concept of a default parent? You know, the one where the children will always ask, even if the other parent is present.

Well, we're going to hear from a mother in a same-sex marriage about how they navigate this issue in their relationship. Now, the COVID pandemic has affected us all in so many ways, not least us looking at our careers and what we want from them. Well, starting your own business is one way women are taking greater control. But figures show that last year, a little more than 1% of businesses set up by women in the UK got investment. That's despite record-breaking levels of investment in startups around the world. Why is that? We're going to try and find out. Also, of course, less than three weeks to the start of the Winter Olympics. We'll look at Team GB's medal

prospects and the challenges, of course, presented by these games hosted in Beijing. With the first female chef to mission, also speaking to us will be the double Olympic champion Lizzie Yarnod and how to remove the shame the isolation and fear sometimes associated with being told you've got an abnormal smear test a charity says thousands of women know little or nothing about cervical cell changes before being diagnosed and they say that they want to change that. But let's begin talking about this. Crimes motivated by misogyny should lead to longer jail terms. That's according to the former Justice Secretary Robert Buckland. Now he's pushing for an amendment to the policing bill which goes before the House of Lords today.

It follows the huge public outcry following the murder of Sarah Everard by the serving Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Cousins. And yet, on Wednesday afternoon, another woman lost her life as she went jogging. 23-year-old Aisling Murphy was murdered whilst running along the banks of the Grand Canal in Tullamore in Ireland. The Irish police believe she was attacked and killed by a man acting alone. They've identified a man of interest who's currently in hospital. Well, understandably, the case has shocked the nation. It's revived concerns about women's safety in public spaces in Ireland and in the UK. And there's been an outpouring of grief on social media.

And numerous vigils have been held over the weekend, including in Tullamore, in Dublin, in Cork, in Belfast and in London. Well, here is some of the reaction from those attending Friday's vigil in Dublin. They were speaking to RTE. I have been out here on these type of vigils for 40 years. We started to reclaim the night back in the 1980s and nothing has changed. And now is time we have to do something. We can't just go on. I'm just really, really tired of it.

And I think I've never felt so many of my female friends being this impacted. Just like, I'm very angry and kind of hopeless. Like, what more can we do? Men have to come out. They have to do it, they have to show they're here. Well I'm horrified, disgusted to be quite honest, and there are no words, without knowing the full detail, but there are no words.

Just here to show what little bit of support that I can. Yeah, we just felt so strongly about what happened to Aisling and it's happening everywhere around the world. So it's something we really need to make sure it stops and we don't have to worry as much. Well, let's talk more about the case and about the public reaction with the Irish Times reporter, Jade Wilson, and also with us is veteran feminist activist, Alva Smith,

who is chair of the Board of Directors for Women's Aid in Ireland. Hello, good morning to both of you. Morning, Chloe. Jade, let's begin by talking about Aisling Murphy. Tell us about her as a person and also about what we know about what happened to her. Sure. Aisling Murphy was a primary school teacher in County Offaly in the Midlands of Ireland. She taught first class students, a class of children who would be about seven or eight years Aisling Murphy was a primary school teacher in County Offaly in the Midlands of Ireland. She taught first class students, a class of children who would be about seven or eight years old in the local Dara National School. She was newly qualified and had started teaching in the school in March 2021. She was also a talented musician and was involved with the choir and loved sports. She played camogie as well, an Irish stick and ball team sport played by women with the local club who said, you know,

she'd been a much-loved member of their junior and senior teams. And what do we know about what happened on Wednesday afternoon? Yeah, so Aisling was murdered in Tullamore Town on Wednesday while she was jogging along a canal bank at around 4pm in the afternoon. And there's not too much detail known about the case at the moment. So far, the police haven't been able to establish any obvious link between Aisling and the person who attacked her. Initially, a man in his 40s was arrested and detained for questioning, but he was released without charge on Thursday and eliminated from any inquiries. And the investigation is focusing now on a man who's been treated

for a mix of wounds in a Dublin hospital, as you mentioned, and his DNA is being cross-checked against a DNA profile taken from the crime scene, as well as forensic evidence on a mountain bike found there as well. Alva, I want to bring you in because I know that you went to a vigil. You actually spoke at a vigil over the weekend. Jade, I know you also went to a vigil. Just tell me a little bit, Alva, if you would, about the reaction in Ireland

to this brutal killing at four o'clock on a Wednesday afternoon beside a canal. Well, you know, it was an immediate reaction. It was absolutely countrywide. I think you certainly couldn't say that there was one section, not at all. There seemed to be this rising up in genuine sadness in the first place, but also, you know, real horror and the sense that this can't go on. You know, I certainly wouldn't, I think there is a lot of anger there, but it's not that people were rising up in rage. They were saying, this is horrifying and we absolutely have to stop it. And it was very organic. I know the National Women's Council said that they started getting texts and phone calls and emails in massive numbers and we know that this happens from

previous experience in Ireland. When people really feel that something has reached some kind of tipping point there is simply no way that we will tolerate what is happening any longer. And that means it's a really very important moment. I don't think it's that surprising. I think that certainly in Ireland, we've been extremely aware during the pandemic of the huge rise in violence against women in so-called domestic situations, you know, 43% rising calls to women's aid, for example. So, and there was a massive, there were massive gestures of huge generosity from people in Ireland in donating to the organisations which actually deal with the services. So, you know, this murder comes at a moment when people's feelings and awareness is heightened. And I also think it follows on seven murders last year in Ireland, our understanding and our noticing and paying attention to what is

happening, what happened in the UK and the terrible murder of Sarah Everard. And we notice what's happening globally. And people are saying this really is an endemic problem. We've been saying it. I was listening to the woman on the box pop who said, you know, 40 years we've been out here, nearly 50 years since I've been, you know, work fighting on this issue. Nearly 50 years. It is absolutely time. It is over time. It is overdue here in Ireland, in the UK, elsewhere in Europe, around the world, that we need to make men's violence against women and its prevention and ultimately, hopefully, its eradication an absolute priority. This is not something which can be an add-on. We absolutely have to make a global priority of men's violence

against women right across the spectrum of violence because it doesn't drop out of the blue sky. And well this is the problem isn't it Elva that every time there is a horrendous murder which reaches the headlines and let's remember for each one that reaches the headlines there are many more that don't. There is a huge outpouring of emotion. People are angry and say things have to change. I mean I I was reading that Leo Varadkar, the Deputy Prime Minister in Ireland, was saying that things have to change. We as a society need to face up to this. There's an epidemic of violence against women. It's been going on for a millennia. Men and boys, I think in particular, have a responsibility to start to have a conversation amongst themselves about the kind of factors, the kind of attitudes that give

rise to feelings that engender men to commit acts of violence against women. The problem is, Jade, these conversations always happen, but then these murders still happen. And thankfully, they are few and far between. We mustn't, you know, exaggerate this. But what is really changing, Jade? Is there legislation that's coming in Ireland to try and protect women? Yeah, so I suppose a lot of people have pointed to that

over the last few days. You know, every time there's a murder or any sort of violence against women, the same kind of thing is said every time something has got to change. The question is, is it changing? I know a new national strategy for addressing gender-based violence in Ireland has been in development for a number of months.

It's the third one. And I suppose the killing of Aisling Murphy has added a sense of urgency to that. The minister for justice, Helen McEntee, has said the department would be publishing the strategy in a matter of weeks. And this will aim to kind of promote a culture of prevention and the delivery of effective services in Dublin and across the country. I suppose, you know, it's a matter of how will those goals actually be achieved this time around? And a lot of people are saying that'll require collaboration across every section of government, you know, education and social housing and justice and health. It's an issue across the board. Alva might actually have more to add on the work being done on that strategy. Because you've been involved in that consultation process, haven't you, Alva?

Well, not directly. I'm chair of a board, but certainly Women's Aid as an organisation has been very involved. And this is a process that's been going on now for, I think, approximately two years. The strategy is due to be launched in the month of March. It was, if you like, coincidental that it follows, it will follow on the murder of Aisling Murphy. But of course, it's never coincidental because these murders do happen actually all the time. And I think that that's the point that we're all making. And I do think that the strategy, from what I know of it, looks, it takes up all of the pillars of the Istanbul Convention on Violence Against Women. But somehow I felt over the weekend at the vigils that I was

at and speaking at, that there was a qualitative change, Chloe, because it's about going back to that question about will this just turn out to be another one week wonder, so to speak. I did feel that there was something a bit different, certainly in Ireland, that people were rising up very spontaneously everywhere and that there was a real sense that this has to change. And the interesting thing is that there are more men and boys now involved. And this has been a constant theme. And I know that I certainly said, and it has been very, very, very well received by men that, you know, women, we're going on fighting. We're not going to stop. We've always been fighting this issue.

But the time now, it is more than time for men to come and stand beside us and to call it out and to take responsibility. Because this is not just a women's issue. People have said, oh, there should be a ministry for women and we'll put violence in there. No, actually, let's have a ministry for men and women and gender relations and put violence in there. Because just on that, I think it's really important for us to maintain that full phrase, men's violence against women,

because these are not crimes which happen all by themselves. There are perpetrators and the perpetrators in the vast majority of cases are men. And we have to not shy away from saying this. And of course, that doesn't mean all men, of course not. And it does make me very annoyed when I see hashtag not all men. Of course, not all men. But why are all men not standing up and shouting angrily at the men who do perpetrate these brutal crimes, that they must stop and participating in the moves to stop them and ensuring that they are punished when and if they do. Let's talk about the reaction to Aisling Murphy's murder, because one of the hashtags on social media was, she was only out for a run. And Jade, there was quite a backlash to that,

with the insinuation being, well, she shouldn't have been attacked because she was out for a run. But actually, women should never be attacked, whether it is down a dark alley at 2am or running beside the banks of a canal. Yeah, absolutely. I suppose like when Sarah Everard was murdered, social media has become awash of women sharing their own experiences of misogyny or violence and the ways they've had to curtail their lives so they can feel safer. And, you know, the frustration in all of this is that women are feeling that they've said, you know, the onus should not be on them to make public or private spaces safer for them,

and that it doesn't matter what they are doing or what they were doing. This shouldn't happen. You know, some people on social media have been talking about self-defense classes and personal alarms, all the things that came up when Sarah Everard was killed last year. But there's been huge backlash against that as well. You know, women I've spoken to are saying, I don't know what women could possibly do differently. They say it's the justice system that needs to change, you know, the education curriculum for young boys and young girls, and that it's men that need to call out misogynistic behavior among their friends, you know, because education curriculum for young boys and young girls, and that it's men that need to call out misogynistic behaviour among their friends, you know, because it is a pyramid, you know, microaggressions towards violence.

It's all kind of scale. So, yeah, I think definitely there's been a huge reaction and a lot of kind of discussion online about what needs to change. As we draw to a close, Alva, just tell me a little bit about what was said to you at the vigil by other women. I know you spoke at one of the vigils, but what was the sense you were getting from women there about what they want to change and what they feel would make a difference to them being safe in public spaces? At all the vigils that I was part of, women were saying men have to step up, first of all. This is so important, education and awareness for boys and also, I suppose, for girls, but

particularly for boys. We need to have in place a major commitment on the part of government to provide the services and the funding. This comes up time and time again, because, you know, when you look at service provision, and I think the same is true of the UK, a lot of the services are actually funded by donations from the general public. And, you know, if we had health services where on a regular basis we said, let's have donations from the general public to fund our health service, there would quite rightly be a big outcry. But why are we having to fund these services to quite a significant extent? So women are speaking about that as well and saying we want to see proper services and we also want to see proper accountability.

So prosecuting, ending the bail, get outs for men, all of these issues come up. It's a whole spectrum, Chloe, that has to be attacked. And I believe that there is the will to do it now. Alva Smith, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning, Chair of the Board of Directors for Women's Aid Ireland. And we were also joined by the Irish Times reporter, Jade Wilson. A few of you getting in touch with us on this issue lots of you getting in touch with us about um gender roles in parenting we'll come to that later but jackie has got in touch saying unless and until we stop men feeling entitled to women's bodies it won't stop we need to stop issuing licenses to strip clubs we need to stop making films where

women are murdered thus normalizing it another one here has just come in saying good morning it's not just about murder and violence against women, it goes all the way down to general misogyny even in schools hence everyone's invited movement. Boys are not being taught respect for girls or themselves. We need public education from early years to

our politicians. Thank you so much for getting in touch. You can add your thoughts, you can text us now 84844 or you can tweet us at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, it is the pinnacle of any athlete's career to compete at an Olympic Games. Well, as 50 athletes representing Team GB head to Beijing for the Winter Olympics in February, they face the challenge of disruption caused by COVID and diplomatic boycotts over China's human rights record. However, hopes are high they will bring back a clutch of medals. Well, to tell us more

is Georgina Harland, who is Britain's first ever female chef de mission, and Liz Yarnold, Britain's most successful winter Olympian. She is double Olympic champion in the skeleton. Good morning to both of you. Good morning. Georgina, I want to speak to you first because I find it incredibly depressing that you're the first ever female chef de mission. Do you find it depressing? Well, I have to say, when I had the huge honour of having the phone call to be offered the role, it was a surprise to me, actually. I hadn't appreciated that at all and I think you

know throughout my athletic career throughout my sport career I had amazing you know female role models surrounding me and um so yeah it was a surprise um but obviously a huge honor to take on that role and we should explain first of all what that role is and of course that that you do have a sporting background and what your role is or was so yeah so um i was a modern pentathlete um i won a silver sorry a bronze medal in in athens in 2004 i was trying to upgrade myself um and i won a medal for uh in pentathlon and then uh once i retired and went into the daunting world of of work um i you know i i ended up at the british olympic association uh where i guess i've grown there to this point where i've been i'm now heading to beijing as chef de mission which ultimately means that um i have i guess overall accountability for for Team GB, both in the preparation phase, in the planning,

and then during the games themselves. So it's a big role. I want to bring in Lizzie, if I can, because Lizzie, you're now going to be commentating for the BBC. You're still very much involved in the Olympics. Give us a sense of Team GB's best medal prospects. And I'm sure that Georgina will want to chip in on this as well it's going to be a really exciting games it's really hard to publicly

say who is the medal prospect because I don't want to add to that athlete's pressure that they might be feeling they won't be listening it'll be fine I hope they are resting I hope that they're recovering and training a bit but we do have some really exciting medal prospects, especially in the women's side. We've got Charlotte Banks. So she's a snowboarder. She does that really exciting event where there's lots of snowboarders

all physically fighting their way to the front. She medalled in the test event in Beijing a few months ago. So I think she'll be definitely one to watch. I'm a lover of ice dance. As soon as I finished in Pyeongchang I went straight to the arena and watched the ice dance so we've got Natasha McKay she's an individual and then Leila and Lewis as well doing the pairs ice dancing and Eve Muirhead how can I not mention Eve her fourth Olympic Games she's had a tough season she's fought to qualify and I love that

kind of experience you know she was one that I definitely looked up to in Sochi and Pyeongchang so there I could go on listing people but um yeah so so much excitement to see in just a few weeks. And Georgina it's a funny build-up obviously to the Winter Olympics we'll talk about that in a moment so I guess it's quite difficult to try and estimate how many medals Team GB may come home with. But Georgina, what would you say the aim is right now? Well, I think talking to Lizzie's point there, both being athletes, we both don't want to put medals around athletes next before we get there.

And as you say, it has been a challenging time for a number of these athletes in the lead up to the Games. But I think, you know, go on we go in with um with with confidence uh we go in with with I I believe um we are more competitive across more disciplines than ever before which is which is a great place to be you know we've got uh Cornelius Kirsten I know he's not he's a male athlete but in in speed skating so yeah I think we we're in a good place. And I think we're just in this over the last weekend, these last few days where we're really those that the remainder of the athletes will be selected. So it's an exciting time for these athletes. And Lizzie, just explain how difficult from an athlete's point of view it must be to prepare for these games with the shadow of COVID.

I mean, it's affected training, but presumably it's really stressful now because people are trying in the last few weeks beforehand. Some people still having to go to competitions, but they're trying to stay away from COVID and make sure that their games aren't ended before they've begun. Absolutely. Staying healthy COVID-wise and just injury-free is really important at the moment. Some athletes will be competing just this weekend, trying to fight for their qualification points. We're waiting for the announcements to come in to fill the team. But what I think the athletes will probably be focusing on now is thinking, how is the season just flown by?

How is the winter season with athletes with their head down? How is it flown by? And now is a moment to look up and think, the olympics are just a few weeks ahead and i hope that they allow themselves to really feel that excitement feel that um the the fact that they are valued as an athlete they deserve to be here if they've been selected for team gb and i really want them to know that this is one of the best experiences they're going to have in their lives. And I really hope that sport, as you know, for me, sport was about having fun, being tough, performing well,

but, you know, meeting other nations, meeting competitors in a fair, respectful environment and wanting the best out of that competition and wanting the best from my fellow women. Georgina, we've got to talk about the controversy that comes with Beijing hosting this and China's human rights record. We know that the US, the UK, Australia, Canada have all decided not to send government representatives. Was there ever a question over whether British athletes should attend? No, there was never that question. And I think, you know, our government's been very clear that sport is separate to politics. And of course, we absolutely, that's absolutely something

that we support. And I think, you know, we are in that position now that Lizzie talked about, that these are athletes that have trained their lives for this moment, and absolutely our priority is on giving them the very, very best environment so they can do all that Lizzie talked about, go, you know, prepare and absolutely focus on their performance. And I was also reading that the British Olympic Association has said it's going to support athletes who want to take a stand over human rights abuses in China. Just explain how that's going to work. Well, I think, you know, first and foremost, we absolutely support athletes' freedom of expression.

I think we really recognise also the strength of feeling on a number of really important matters and more and more so athletes. You know, that's a whole array of matters as well. And we absolutely, we shouldn't shy away from this. But what we we need to do as part of that as part of those conversations with athletes is just to talk to them about um about the IOC guidelines or on protocols and statements because that is something that the the IOC have and and through those conversations to talk to them about ways in which they may want to to express what's important to them of course there are athletes that want to others absolutely for them they just want to focus on on their performance and and we believe you know every athlete has has the right to to to how they want to prepare and how they want to perform lizzie before you go i just want to ask you how difficult it is to

transition from being at the absolute top of your sport being double Olympic champion to then retiring and moving into a new realm is there enough support for for female athletes to make that transition clearly we've seen Georgina's been successful but I know that wasn't always an easy ride so so how have you found it Lizzie? Yeah I think everyone's experience is just so individual I think there could always be more support I took a lot of support from the team that I competed with my performance lifestyle advisor all that the team in skeleton and bobsleigh gave me and friendships you know those friendships that I made are the ones that really continued on and I can't wait

to watch Laura and the other skeleton athletes who I competed alongside now compete in Beijing. And I'm one of those people who have bought my lottery ticket. I feel as though I funded these athletes a little bit on their journey. You know, the lottery is how athletes train every day and focus on training and living out their dreams.

And I'm so pumped to just sit here, have a cup of tea, have a kicker and watch them live out their dreams. I'm just so to just sit here have a cup of tea have a kicker and watch them live out their dreams I'm just so you know proud of them all. Lizzie it's great to speak to you thank you so much for your time this morning that's Lizzie Yarnold Britain's most successful winter Olympian she's double Olympic champion that's pretty cool and Georgina Harland speaking to us as well Britain's first ever female female chef demission now women diagnosed with cervical cell changes following cervical screening can be unprepared for the experience they can feel

ashamed they can feel isolated even frightened that's according to new research by joe's cervical cancer trust now kate sanger is head of policy from the trust and joins me now morning kate good morning so give us a sense women go for this cervical screening and most women will get a letter saying, yes, everything's fine. But for some women, they won't. And that can be a really, really frightening moment, can't it? Yeah, absolutely. The majority of cervical screening results will be normal and nothing will be found. But in some cases, you might be told you've got HPV, which is the virus that causes cell changes in cervical cancer. And sometimes that you have cervical cell changes as well. And that can be really worrying, really scary when you

get this result letter. But we want to make sure that everyone who gets an unexpected result knows what it means, knows where to access support and knows where to access support to help them to deal with it. Talk to me about the idea of shame and that some women have said that they do feel ashamed. Just explain that. Yeah, so we conducted research looking at women who've had a cell changes diagnosis. And really sadly, we found about a quarter that said they felt ashamed when they got their diagnosis through. And that's just something which we really want to tackle. A lot of this is to do with HPV. HPV is the virus that causes cervical cancer and it causes cells to change.

But there's lots of really unhelpful stigmas and myths around HPV, such as being dirty or being unclean or around promiscuity as well. And they're just things we really want to get rid of because HPV is so, so common and most of us will have it in our lives. Occasionally it will cause cells to change, but that is absolutely not your fault. You've done nothing wrong if you're told you have HPV. So we really want to get rid of this really harmful stigma

around HPV that exists. And HPV can go. It doesn't always stick around once you've got it, does it? And also just because you've got cell changes doesn't mean that that's going to lead to cervical cancer. So people don't need to panic if they get that letter. Absolutely. The body will clear, the immune system will clear the majority of HPV infections before it has a chance to develop into anything else. In some cases, the body doesn't clear the infection and that's when cells can develop.

And again, even if you're told you have cell change in your cervix following cervical screening, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to develop. In some cases, they will also clear. So when we invite you for cervical screening, we're trying to identify any infections and any cells that might need monitoring, that might need treatment to prevent the development of cervical cancer. Now, let's also talk about this announcement that was made this month in Wales, that screening is going to go from three years to five years. Some people concerned about that. Thousands of people have signed a petition.

Should people be worried that it is moving potentially, well, it is in Wales, to five years rather than three? Yeah, so in Wales and also in Scotland, you are invited for cervical screening every five years, regardless of age. And this is largely to do with a much better, more sensitive way of testing cervical screening samples that was introduced. It's called HPV primary screening.

And this means that we're looking for the presence of HPV when you go for cervical screening, as opposed to just looking to see if there are any cells that have changed. Because it's a much better testing method, it means that it's safe. The evidence shows that it's safe to test every five years. And this is largely because, like I said before, many HPV infections will go back to normal without causing the body any harm. So we need to give the infections time to do that and give the body time to clear any infections. By testing every five years,

it means that we can pick anything that's developed within that interval, we can pick up. But also if you have a HPV infection and you don't have any cell changes, you'll actually be monitored much more closely. So you'll be monitored every year. So it means that we can really closely monitor those people who might have a slightly higher risk of cervical cancer. Thank you ever so much for joining us very grateful to you this morning for your time that's Kate Sanger who's head of policy at Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust. Lots of you getting in touch with us when we were talking about the murder of Aisling Murphy and one text here from Carol I have concerns regarding the attacks on women not because of the

tragedies involved but because of the effect on young girls they're listening to the debates around rights to wear what they like the right to exercise in public and go out at night my 14 year old granddaughter now corrects me and tells me it's okay to shorten your school skirt as it's her choice when asked how she would react if upskirted by a boy, she says it's not her problem and boys need to learn. Her friends all feel the same. I totally agree with that statement. The problem is that until society has changed, this generation of girls are being told by the media largely that they can do anything. But until change comes about, surely it is just encouraging to put themselves in danger. Carol, thank you for your thoughts. And William's got in touch saying

many men do intervene when women are threatened or abused. I do and always have. Please don't give the impression that men are either threatening or indifferent to threats to women. William, I think to be fair, Alva Smith, who was on earlier from Women's Aid Ireland, did make it clear that she's not for a moment suggesting that all men are a threat,

but saying that it is, as you have said, every man's responsibility to stand up and speak for women and be an ally. Do carry on getting in touch with us throughout the course of the programme. You can text us 84844 or at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, the pandemic has forced many of us to look at our work, life and careers and ask ourselves whether we want to change. Starting your own business is one option. In 2021, investors more than doubled the amount of cash they handed out to startups, hitting a record-breaking high of $621 billion globally. Well, in the UK, the tech sector alone

saw £29 billion invested. The only catch, if you're a woman, you're less likely to see that money. Only 1.1% of all funding went to women-founded teams. That's down from 2.4% in 2020. So why are women-founded companies finding it hard to get money from investors? Let's speak to Debbie Wasco-Obe, who is an entrepreneur and founder of Albright. And also with us is Samira Ankasim, who is founder of Pink Salt Ventures. That's the first venture capital fund in the UK dedicated to female entrepreneurs. Good morning. Morning. First of all, Debbie, just explain to me, can we understand, can we fathom why only

1.1% of investment is given to female founded companies? You know, it's a shocking statistic. And I think happily of the heady heights pre the pandemic when 2.4% of capital went to fund a female founder. The playing field is not level. Only 2% of venture capital partners, i.e. the people writing the checks, are female. And only 17% of angel investors, that's people writing smaller checks for earlier stage business, are women. Now, I've spent my career asking men for money, and it needs to change. What we know, courtesy of HSBC, is that 35% of women entrepreneurs say that they have experienced explicit gender bias when pitching for capital. And if the stats are

bad for white women, the stats for black women are terrible. They are at 0.0001%. But women-led businesses deliver better returns than male-led businesses. So we need to unpick this. The pandemic has hit women harder. I know that that's a topic that you've discussed a number of times on Women's Hour. Everything from mental load to homeschooling has set us back. There isn't a magic bullet, but at Albright, which is the network for women's careers, we know that women's networks are not

as good as men's, and we need to work at it in real life and digitally, and that women's careers are not linear. And we recognize that there are moments in life when women may feel more entrepreneurial. How do we support them? Two-thirds of our Albright community of half a million women on the Albright Collective platform say that they want to start their own business as we emerge from the pandemic and we are here to help. Samira, just explain what you think the particular challenges are. I'm thinking things like pitching. I'm guessing men and women probably pitch in different ways. Yeah, so I think in general, women can be more conservative about their business plans, which, you know, of course, plays in if someone's, you know,

painting a picture of like winning the world versus someone who isn't. I think it's kind of standard to when people go for job roles, you know, and a guy will see that he's partway qualified and go for it, whereas a woman will need to be qualified 100% for everything. So there's kind of that typical thing playing in. But also typically, in terms of how the prejudice plays out, a lot of investors will ask women downside related questions on their business plans. And if you take an entrepreneur, regardless of what their gender is, And if you take an entrepreneur, regardless of what their gender is, and you ask the same entrepreneur, a lot of upside related questions versus a lot of downside related questions, the person who gets asked the upside related questions

will have a much more attractive business. And that's a trend that plays out across male and female investors. And it's one way that the prejudice plays out in terms of that initial pitch, which when you do just have a pitch deck, that, you know, that meeting and how you position your business is really important because you don't have metrics. You don't have years of revenue, years of operating data that demonstrate that you're really onto a winning idea and a winning business. Debbie, how difficult did you find it to get funding for your business to get it off the ground? I'm onto business number four. So I'm what's known as a multi-exit entrepreneur. And I set up my first business age 25 and I'm 48 next month. It is a very, very complex journey. But more than anything, we need to coach women, support women and showcase success stories. You have to see it to be it. There have been some great pandemic success stories of female entrepreneurs doing brilliantly, whether that's Marcia Kilgore at Beauty Pie or the female co-founders of Cult

Beauty. And in my book, Belief Build Become, which was reissued post the pandemic, we give very practical lessons and reissue advice on how women can get started. Two thirds of our Albright community say that they want to start their own business as a result of the pandemic. I think we're all feeling that we want to connect our career with our choices, with ownership, with purpose. But women need to talk about money. Women need to own wanting money. Women need to get rich and redeploy their capital in backing other women. And to me, this angel investor stat, only 17% of angel investors in the UK are women, is really critical. You don't need to be Warren Buffett to start. There are tax breaks in place in the UK that mean that it is tax efficient for women and men to invest their own money in high growth businesses. you can start with hundreds of pounds, not millions of pounds. And I'm about to run a campaign to get more women angel investing in

2022. So it's about starting, it's about having the conversation. And it's about realizing that communities like Albright are here to support women who want to get started. Samira, this is a global problem, isn't it? I mean, women in Europe also only got 1.1% of the investment pot. In the US, they got around 2%. Is that the reason why you started your venture capital firm to focus solely on investing in women entrepreneurs? I actually started my venture capital fund because I was mapping out all of these very interesting macro trends of innovation and with a view to being a founder and my light bulb moment was to just invest in women because logically they'd be building in these areas so

specifically femtech and a lot of the innovation around women's health, as well as consumer, women are brilliant consumer founders. And then I dive deeper into the funding statistics. I wasn't actually aware of the statistics at the time. It was purely a commercial decision, which also speaks to the fact that, you know, back in the day, when it came to technology, entrepreneurship, it was prohibitive where you are. There was a lot of entrepreneurship out of the valley in the 70s. You know, the founder of Sequoia typically said, I don't want to invest in someone that I can't bicycle to. Whereas now you have all of these technology stacks and all of these enabling technologies that have really democratized entrepreneurship globally. However, there are

still structural barriers when it comes to women investing. And as Debbie's already mentioned, that's to do with network, that's to do with angel investing, which are really important when it comes to getting that first check. But it is also about coaching and about bringing women into the VC journey and creating spaces that understand how women pitch. And I think that's why we focused on pre-seed as well, because ultimately it's about getting that first check. When it comes to venture capital and building globally scalable businesses,

you can't do that with a tiny budget, right? You need to raise serious money and you also need to do it at pace. And women are just as capable as men of going on that journey. But I think at the earliest point of the funding process is where there does need to be dedicated capital towards it, that kind of breaks it as well as networks, as well as different shifting paradigms within the venture capital market where you have more female partners at the established firms too, and that's changing.

So it's changing that more women are starting to move up and be able to write those checks. I'm just wondering, Debbie, what we're missing out on when these women aren't being invested in? It's huge. Women control 80% of the disposable income in any household. It's often the case that women found businesses around their own lived experience. So my last business before this one was called Love Home Swap. It was a home exchange for holidays platform. And I was inspired watching the movie The Holiday, which shows inspiration can strike at any time, on the plane with my two small children. And I built that business. I sold it for 53 million. Women are and should be huge contributors to UK PLC, to the UK economy. The way that we fight

back as a country post the pandemic is to make the UK the best place in the world to be a female founder. And that's why it's great to talk today. It's fantastic to see people like Samira, but we need to keep talking about it. Women need to talk about money. Women need to be entrepreneurial, resilient, wherever they're working. Most women are not likely to have linear careers. That's okay.

Whether you're a founder or you're working for someone else or you're a freelancer or consultant, it's network skills and confidence so come to Albright a lot of what we do is for free get in the room whether that's digitally or physically and think about it because it's an amazing exciting sometimes terrible mostly brilliant life where you can create wealth for yourself. And I want to see more women doing it. And we're here to help you. Debbie Wasco, thank you so much for speaking to us. She is Debbie Wasco, OBE, an entrepreneur, also founder of Albright and Samira and Qasim, also with us, founder of Pink Salt Ventures. That's the first venture capital fund in the UK dedicated to female entrepreneurs.

Now on Woman's Hour, we regularly talk about different aspects of motherhood. And in a recent interview, one listener, Kathy Adams, shared that she didn't particularly enjoy the mothering experience and said that some women just aren't made to be mothers. She also said she'd probably have had been, she would have probably been a better father than a mother, which has started a conversation about what that actually means. Well, we're joined now by Lucy McGrath. She is the biological mother of a six-year-old. She's the main breadwinner in her family, and she's known as Mum. Her wife is the full-time stay-at-home carer and is known as Mummy.

Hi there, Lucy. Hi, how are you, Chloe? Good, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Also with us is Dr Charlotte Faircloth, who is an Associate Professor in Social Science at UCL. Now, her work has focused on parenting, gender and reproduction. She's explored couple relationships and recently the impact of coronavirus on family life. Hi there, Charlotte.

Hi. Now, first, before we begin our conversation, let's listen to that comment by our listener, Cathy Adams. This is what sparked our debate. She begins by talking about the moment that she became a mum. It wasn't the best day of my life, the day that he was born. It's not the best thing I've ever done. And this is just anathema, you know, to other women sometimes, because I think some women do feel that sense of purpose and I think really what we need to remember is that having a child is such a personal thing and everybody's experience is so so different nobody's experience is worth

more than another you know but I I do feel like I can't help being so candid about this because I think the fact that sometimes some women also aren't made to be mothers and I on days would put myself into that category I don't I just don't particularly enjoy the whole mothering experience you know I think I would have been a much better father than a mother um but that's okay well let's pick up on Charlotte. What do you think she means when she says she would have made a better father than a mother? Yeah, I mean, really interesting comment, and I think probably one that will resonate with a lot of listeners in that there's been a lot of, you know, sort of sociological work recently, which has really pointed out this kind of rise in expectations around parenting in general um so mothers feeling very very torn about the expectations that they have both at sort of home but also at work and the need to um you know be um sort of um engaging in uh not only the kind of running of the household and the management of the home and sort of clearing out the lunchboxes

and thinking about, you know, all of these things you talked about in the programme, the kind of mental load side of things, but also these kind of more gold star activities like the reading and swimming classes and the extracurricular activities. So there's a lot of attention there about how women are feeling kind of overwhelmed and torn. Similarly, there's been work sort of pointing towards men's experiences of parenting recently. But the sort of acknowledgement there has been that the focus for them has been more on cultivating this kind of emotional closeness relative to fathers of previous generations and perhaps kind of a focus on these more kind of gold star activities like the reading or the swimming which then sort of leaves mothers and it is generally mothers to do this kind of labour of running the home and you know I think as we heard that that sort of often leads to feelings of kind of overwhelm or resentment and you, where we're sort of today.

Lucy, when you heard that comment from Cathy Adams, does that resonate with you? When you look at your own family set up, how does it work? It resonates to the point of view that motherhood for me has demonstrated the difference between the expectation and the reality. And I mean, I love being a mother, but I found particularly getting to terms with the practicalities of early parenthood so difficult. It wasn't my natural skill set and I loved it. And I was so lucky to have an amazing woman to help me with that who actually is naturally a bit more practical.

But I could really see how alone I might have felt if I didn't have that and if I was surprised, you know, it's not natural, some of these things, these are skills that need to be learned. And so I really, that resonates to the extent that the value of having somebody and having particularly my wife with me on that journey was so important.

So do you think that you had a conscious conversation about what roles you would do, who would work, who would stay at home? Or do you think you just kind of fell into it because of those things you're talking about, your natural instincts and where your strengths lie? I think that we, as having two women, we're really lucky to be able to flush out the assumptions about the gender roles. And so, to be honest, I really assumed as I was growing up, not really imagining that gay marriage was a possibility. If I was married to a man, I just assumed that I would stay at home, you know, for the whole of the, you know, a year or whatever.

And when I went back to work at six months, it was difficult, but it was also, I had this amazing revelation of what a privilege and an honour it is to actually be a provider. And so that was an example of this male, you know, dominant role that I just feel sort of really blessed about. And so having a female partner has really helped us have those conscious, intentional discussions about a lot of these issues. That's interesting, Charlotte. So in that sense, I guess, and Lucy, I don't want to put words in your mouth,

but it almost sounds like because you're in a same-sex relationship, you're able to almost approach this more open-minded than maybe, say, a marriage where there's a man and a woman. People, do they, is it down to society's expectations and slipping into these kind of traditional roles that are expected? And it's not just by society. It could be family. It could be yourself that you expect yourself to fall into a certain role, Charlotte. Yeah, I think absolutely that, you know, all of those kind of come into these decisions. But I think it's also worth flagging that, you know, these decisions aren't just made between couples in circumstances of their own, you know, their own choice in the childcare in the UK certainly is like phenomenally expensive. And that then often forces couples, whether, you know, same sex or different sex couples into this more kind of traditional homemaker breadwinner setup,

which, you know, can then have sort of difficult implications. I mean, I actually really appreciated Lucy's point there that I think in a more kind of intensive parenting culture where we're kind of very attuned, shall we say, to these like early infancy experiences of, you know, reading or bonding, eye contact, flashcards, etc. We actually maybe lose sight of the importance of earning a wage, being the breadwinner as a really important part of demonstrating care for children. And certainly over the life course, you know, I really think that needs to be taken into account as an important thing that parents do, whether that's a mother or a father um but certainly I think uh you're right that

there's there's also this question of this kind of internalization of this culture around gender roles and parenting now a lot of the mothers in my research are quite sort of open about the fact that although they feel somewhat resentful shall they say say, about sort of having to do it, they're also aware that they wouldn't want it any other way. And so there's this real kind of double bind there, I think, for partners in knowing how best to support the mother, let's say in this case, you know, if we think about the example of breastfeeding, it's a body based kind of practice or decision. You know, how as a partner do you best support

the mother to do that um and let's say if breastfeeding is tricky uh you know if you suggest feeding the baby with a bottle is that going to be taken as undermining or as supportive and I think um you know essentially what we kind of see is that we always talk about the partner being supportive or involved or we don't really talk about involved mothers um and i think that kind of tells you all you need to know right um so ultimately it kind of does come down to women and their own um you know preferences and and practices based on uh yeah often their bodies so many messages coming in kat in somerset says as a single parent i'm both mother and father i'm the one who sets the boundaries and the one who cuddles and reassures I was brought up by two parents who split these roles between them but I do it all myself and it's always worked okay though the pressure and the loneliness has sometimes been

great another one here from Laura in Bristol thanks for getting in touch Laura I'm a woman in the military and often deploy I in society would consider my male partner to be the primary caregiver which is a situation that suits us and works fairly well. Societal norms are changing, and I feel that our situation reflects the fact that the line between the traditional mother-father stereotypes is changing. Whatever works for each family as they try and navigate the pressure of work life is fine by me. Lucy, I wonder, do you ever feel that you are judged if you go away for work in a way that maybe a man wouldn't be judged?

I know that in the past I've had to go away for work sometimes for a week or so at a time. And other women would judge me for going away in a way that I often felt I wouldn't have been judged if I was a man. Absolutely. I've had that experience. I've particularly been surprised at younger women expressing that and the sort of trope of saying, oh, did you ask the other director whether or not he was about what's happening with his parents? And that was really surprising and also a really great opportunity as well to tell them about saying this is you know we're lucky to be able to make these decisions in our family that

we can do this and this is you know this privilege and to sort of be telling them about that. And I guess that's the point isn't it not everybody has the luxury Charlotte to make these decisions you know for some people both parties have to work and then you've got the added challenges then of you're both working you're both tired but you've both got to do the child care. Yeah absolutely and I think you know obviously the pandemic kind of blew apart like how essential child care is to a functioning economy and to kind of family harmony relationships as well you know as you say it kind of um it really pointed out how uh resources kind of come into play in these decisions um and uh yeah i think um

uh it's uh it's very very difficult for um couples who aren't able to kind of make these decisions as i was saying in sort of circumstances of their own choosing. I mean, arguably what would actually make these easier is a sort of properly funded system of childcare so that it takes the pressure off couples to have these discussions between themselves. It's the challenge, isn't it? And it's a challenge that is ongoing. We've spoken about so many times on Woman's Hour. Listen, thank you both for joining us, Dr Charlotte Faircloth and also Lucy McGrath.

Thank you for listening to Woman's Hour today. I'll be back at the same time tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.