Woman's Hour - Witness protection, Anti-LGBT law in Uganda, Author Harriet Gibsone, Women's World Cup squad

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

A woman who was stalked by her husband and then placed into witness protection with a new identity to escape him, says she feels like she's the one being punished. She's complained to the police about the way her case was handled after being told she failed an assessment and was no longer being supported by them in her new life. She spoke to our reporter Melanie Abbott, and says she felt completely cut adrift. We hear her story of how she had to uproot her two children and start a new life with a new job in a new town, while her husband is free to live wherever he likes. Academic Rachael Wheatley from the university of Derby tells Anita how she is training police to be better at dealing with stalkers and how victims need better support.The England manager Sarina Wiegman has this week named her squad for the Women’s World Cup in Australia and New Zealand in July. But star players like Beth Mead, Leah Williamson and Fran Kirby will all miss out because of injury. Wiegman is also keen to get her squad training together at the earliest possible opportunity, but says her plans are being blocked by the European Club Association who only want players released from their club teams at the end of June at the earliest. So what does this mean for England Women’s world cup chances and how will they fare down under? Anita finds out from Jo Currie, BBC women's sport reporter.This week, Uganda’s President Yoweri Museveni signed the Anti-Homosexuality Bill into law. It’s a country already known for its strict laws against LGBT people, but the new bill includes legislation changes such as the death penalty for what is being described as ‘aggravated homosexuality’, for example anyone engaging in gay sex who is infected with a life-long illness such as HIV. The bill also states that anyone facilitating same-sex marriage in the country could face up to seven years imprisonment, and anyone promoting or normalising LGBT relationships could be served whole life sentences. Kasha Nabagesera, LGBT activist and founder of Freedom and Roam Uganda, one of the main lesbian, bisexual and transgender women's rights organizations in the country, joins Anita to discuss what this means on the ground.Did you grow up in the 90s and noughties during the advent of the internet, when MSN, chatrooms and MySpace were the dominant platforms? Harriet Gibsone is an author and millennial who was part of the first generation to come of age online. In her new memoir Is This OK? One Woman’s Search for Connection Online, she examines the long-term impact it had on her and the pros and cons of online connection at different stages of her life, from being a teen to becoming a mother struggling with early menopause. She joins Anita in the Woman's Hour studio.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. OK, I'm not going to explain now, but just hear me out. Listen to this. Strap it. This is BBC Radio 4. I remember hearing this and I was like, whoo, hold on for dear life.

UK Station of the Year. I'm coming out. We're going to interrupt you because Chris Mason has news. The Prime Minister has agreed to stand down. A year to remember. What the hell just happened? With powerful documentaries. They say

at the heart of every conspiracy theory there's a kernel of truth. Hard-hitting interviews. How did you survive, Nazanin? I think it was my faith. And innovative entertainment. Screaming, like pushing hard and then... This is our playlist on BBC Radio.

Winner of UK Station of the Year. My castaway this week is the singer and songwriter... Hear it on BBC Sounds. Is this genuinely paranormal? Hear it on BBC Sounds. This is BBC Radio 4. When I saw him there, I just said, you've got a hell of a job, the best of luck. What I really wanted to see... Don't tempt me.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. I'm going to be joined on the programme by Harriet Gibson. She's written a coming-of-age memoir, At the Dawn of Social Media, and how this supplied her with the perfect place to continue her favourite pastime of snooping on other people's lives. She also talks about parasocial relationships in the book. Hers was with Chris Martin from Coldplay. Parasocial relationships are basically a one-sided relationship that happens in your head. Often the other person doesn't even know you exist. So they tend to be someone famous. So this morning, we're all going to fess up to our secret obsession.

I think most of us have had a teenage crush who we've built an entire life with, travelled the world with, went on tour with, etc. And if you share yours, I will share mine. My innocent pre-teen loves were new kids on the block. I even set my watch to Massachusetts time so we were in the same time zone. Why am I admitting this on national radio?

Anyway, if that wasn't embarrassing enough, let's just say there's a parallel universe that has existed for 30-odd years where me and Keanu have a very happy life together. So now it's your turn. Just how obsessed have you been? I want names, dates, and the fantasy please don't leave me hanging uh you can text me oh wait for oh wait oh eight four eight four four is the number

to text you can also uh whatsapp me or voice note me oh three seven hundred one hundred four four four you can email me via our website or you can contact me on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, Kasia Nabagasera, a Ugandan LGBT rights activist, tells us how the new anti-homosexuality law will impact her life. And we'll hear from a woman who was stalked by her husband and then placed into witness protection with new identities for her and her children

in order to escape him. But she says she now feels that she's the one being punished. But first football. The England manager Serena Vigman has this week named her squad for the Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand but star players like Beth Mead, Leah Williamson and Fran Kirby will all miss out because of injury. Vigman is also keen to get her squad training together at the earliest possible opportunity, but says her plans are being blocked by the European Club Association, who only want players released from their club teams

at the end of June at the earliest. So what does all of this mean for England women's World Cup chances and how will they fare down under? To fill us in, bring us up to speed, Jo Currie is with us. She's thec women's sport reporter morning joe morning morning how are we all we're great um i won't ask you about your teen obsession just yet let's talk football but i will i will so have it in the back of your mind um so what's the issue with players getting released from their teams bring us up to speed

well it wouldn't be the build-up to a world cup would it without some issues to talk about isn't actually the football itself. So the main issue at the moment in Europe is that about a month ago, the European Club Association, known as the ECA, released a statement basically insisting that players will be unable to join up with their national teams until just 10 days before the start of the World Cup. Now, the ECA has members who include the clubs in the Women's Super League here in England. And it says that it has serious concerns that the players are not being given enough time to rest after the domestic season, which was hectic. It was busy. And so they're looking to seek to strictly adhere to FIFA's mandatory release period, which is July 10th. Now, obviously,

international managers are pushing back on this. The players in this country finished their season on Saturday, just gone. So they're now all on holiday most managers i think wanted them to take a holiday for a couple of weeks then get them back into their international camps and have a kind of slow build up to the world cup um sort of from the middle of june onwards the world cup start itself starts on july 20th so if they're only coming in on July 10th, you've got to imagine that particularly because it's in Australia and New Zealand, you're going to lose two days of that 10-day period to travel. Maybe another day or two to jet lag.

There's going to be no time to really get the players fit. You've got no idea what fitness states they're coming back into. So at the moment, it's a bit of a mess. And I think everyone's hoping that there will be a resolution at some point. Otherwise, it's going to be a very short build up for the European teams. And that's going to massively damage their chances. Could really affect preparations, couldn't it?

Oh, massively. I mean, England are hoping to hold one more friendly game in this country before they fly to Australia and New Zealand. You know, a lot of fans, we saw them at the European Championships last summer. It was a home tournament. Lots of fans turned out. Not many can afford to go to Australia and New Zealand. This will be their last chance to see the Lionesses before they head off. And it's important that the girls get a game in at the very least,

if not a couple more, when they get to Australia and New Zealand. So preparations, not just for England, but for all sorts of teams, Germany, Spain, France, all very much up in the air at the moment. Right. Let's talk about the squad. How strong are they? Tell us about the lineup. Who are going to be the star names and who won't be playing because of injury?

So it's a mixed squad with some big absentees, but plenty of recognizable faces if you watch the Euros last summer. And we've got six players in there who have never played at a major tournament before. Now, we already knew before the squad was announced yesterday that Captain Lear Williamson and Frank Kirby would be ruled out because they've got these serious knee injuries. We were waiting to find out if Beth Mead would be fit. She's not. She's not in the squad. But Lucy Bronze and Millie Bright have made it back from injury and Bright will now captain the side. It's a real mixed bag of kind of experience.

Newbies, youngsters, some with a bit more experience. We've got two players in there have just gone through relegation battles with their teams. So it's not even the players at all the top clubs um but it's a strong strong squad it might not have one or two of the bigger names that we know of but this team can really compete yeah but how is it going to affect our chances not having leah williamson frank kirby and beth mead i mean i think particularly with leah it's the fact that she's captain it's the leadership on the pitch isn't it she speaks so, and she really galvanised that England team last summer. I think it's going to be the leadership that is more missing.

But yeah, we've got these two big players that are missing, but we've also got a squad that most international managers would bite your hand off for. There's always, for every player that's unavailable, there's always someone, usually a youngster, trying to push their way into the squad and prove their worth. And that's what's happening here.

We saw last summer Serena really put her faith in the youngsters and that turned out all right in the end, didn't it? Yeah, it did. And one of them topped our Women's Hour power list, Leah Williamson, number one, right up there. TV rights. What's the story with broadcasting the matches? Yeah, it's like I was saying, it wouldn't be a World Cup preparation if there weren't

interviews that have nothing to do with the football on the pitch, would there? So in terms of this, there are many... But this is really important though, isn't it? Because this is where... This is vital. Yeah. Because for fans of the Lionesses or whichever international team support, we've been watching the international tournaments, the European Championships, the World Cups on TV, primarily the BBC for years now.

It's been a given that we just in the summer. That's what we watch. But currently there are some European footballing nations, including the UK, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, all feuding with FIFA over broadcast rights. FIFA say that these countries are not offering enough money. Therefore, they're not going to give the rights away at all to be on TV this summer. What the broadcasters are saying is that this World Cup is taking place in Australia, New Zealand. Because of the time zones, many of those matches are going to be taking place in the middle of the night. We're not going to have the same number of viewers. If it was a channel that sold advertising, they can't sell it for as much money because fewer people are watching it.

Therefore, they are offering less money than FIFA would like but look the World Cup starts in 49 days and at the moment there is a real danger that these matches may not be shown on TV in some of the biggest footballing nations in the world including the UK. Give the people what they want. Exactly it's it's all a bit of a mess i have no doubt that come the start of the tournament on july 20th everything everywhere probably hopefully will have been sorted out whether it's players being released earlier and tv deals being sorted but at the moment there are things to worry about for international managers and it isn't just the players who are going to be heading over there all right then back to football what are our chances down under how strong are the

other teams? So England will go there as one of the heavy favourites, even with a couple of big injury key players missing. Some people say that winning the European Championships is actually harder than winning the World Cup because of the quality of football in Europe is that much higher. So we will go there as one of the favourites. You cannot look past the likes of the USA, who have won the last two tournaments.

Germany will be strong. Sweden will be strong. Spain have some of the most talented footballers in the USA, who have won the last two tournaments. Germany will be strong. Sweden will be strong. Spain have some of the most talented footballers in the world, although half of them are on strike. That's probably for another time. And then you've got Australia, one of the host nations who have the likes of Sam Kerr, who's lit up the WSL in England for the last couple of seasons.

They'll be desperate to keep that home support going for as long as possible. And Australia could well be a dark horse, as it were. I want to know why they're on strike now. Sorry, Jo. Go for it. Don't put yourself on hold there. So there's a set of players in the Spanish women's national team.

They've been known as the 15. And they basically went on strike in the last year, basically saying that their mental health and even their physical health was not being looked after by the current regime of the Spanish national team, i.e. they wanted the manager out. The Spanish FA have backed the manager and therefore those players. I mean, it's caused a lot of outcry in the game because you've got players saying we're being put at risk here,

our mental health being put at risk. And the Spanish FA's answer to it so far has been to go and get younger players to fill those gaps. So it will be interesting to see how they do as a national team yeah because they've got some of the most talented stunning players in the world who will not be playing this summer and when does the tournament start so it all starts on July 20th the World Cup final is one month later on August 20th and in terms of England between now and then we have no idea what's happening. They want to have at least one more friendly game.

We're not sure when they're going into camp. I can't give you any more details simply because of where we are with things. The Lionesses themselves don't know much at the moment either. But yeah, I think there's still a lot to work through. You've given us tons. You've given us tons, Jo.

Come on then, teenage obsession. When I was growing up, it was probably any boy band that was breathing at the time was mostly mine. And then probably towards teenage years, maybe Damon Albom from Blur. Oh, yeah.

Was the guy on my walls. And he's still going strong. Joe Curry, thank you so much. Thank you for that. Thank you. And on Monday's programme, Nuala will be joined

by Baroness Sue Campbell, Director of Women's Football at the FA and number two on the Women's Hour Power List. 84844 is that number to text. Lots of you getting in touch with your parasocial relationships. This is where you're in a relationship in your head, essentially with somebody who has no idea that you're in a relationship with them, often they're celebrities.

Anna says, my great one-sided teenage love was Frodo baggins not elijah wood who played him in the films but actual fictional hobbit frodo baggins how's that for embarrassing i mean whatever uh gets you going um and callie l says harrison ford is blissfully unaware that we've been together for over 40 years since i saw him crack his whip in raiders of the lost ark at the tender age of 11 i'd seen star wars but it was an it was an Indiana Jones who won my heart. I have to agree with you on this one. I sent a letter to him when I knew he was filming in Elstree in 1984 and received a signed photo in return.

It must have been the silk rose on a bed of pink cotton wool that I sent him with the letter. It was a better response than the letter I sent to Harrison Ford, Hollywood Hills, Los Angeles, USA, which was returned, but it also made its way to America and closer to him and back. So I was thrilled. 84844.

You can also email us by going to the website. Now, a woman who was stalked by her husband and then placed into witness protection with a new identity to escape him says she feels like she's the one being punished. She's complained to the police about the way her case was handled after being told she failed an assessment and was no longer being supported by them in her new life. She says she felt completely cut adrift. Well, our reporter Melanie Abbott can tell us more. Morning, Melanie. Yes, morning, Anita. Now, this is a woman, she's in her 40s, she has two children.

After being in witness protection, they're now all living undercover, so she can't be identified. The relationship broke down 10 years ago, and she got her husband to move out of the house that she owned. He then began a prolonged period of harassment, following her, turning up randomly at the house, even moving into it once when she was away. She told me she actually moved house four times, but she was always found by him. And did she report this to the police? She did, of course, but she told me that they didn't appear to take any concrete action. Eventually, she did manage to get a non-molestation order herself. She told me what her life has been

like since, starting with taking that court action. Obviously, we are protecting her identity, so her words are spoken by an actor. It was not easy at all. I didn't have the right to legal aid because I hadn't reported a violent assault at that point, as it was more of a stalking issue, even though there was violence. What kind of violence? He slapped me across the face and burst my eardrum. He pushed me up against a wall, chucked me over a chair,

so I ended up, like, injuring the inside of my mouth. But that kind of escalated after I decided to leave. So I went to get the non-molestation order. It was a horrendous experience. The judge wasn't very nice to me. She kind of chastised me because I was late, even though I had to get the bus to get there. I couldn't find where I was going, so I just ended up a sobbing wreck, really. It was granted, but it really didn't make any difference at all, if I'm being honest. It was like it didn't exist to him. And did he carry on appearing and essentially stalking you after the order was granted?

Oh, yeah. I had pizzas delivered to the house, flowers delivered. There were videos put up on YouTube where he was talking about how unfairly he'd been treated, how I'd victimised him, everyone was plotting against him, all this kind of thing. He sent a pornographic video to my brother, which was purporting to be us. It wasn't. But just, all this stuff was out there. You know, he'd get neighbours to come and show it to me, to go come and look at this YouTube video. He'd ask neighbours to pass messages, to bring gifts. I mean, when I went through the court,

the judge was saying that it was actually incredible how he'd manipulated people and how actually the whole community ended up doing his dirty work for him. You must have been very surprised the neighbours were willing to do that. I think they probably didn't realise the severity of the situation and as it became apparent people obviously sort of stopped doing things and I think some people were quite scared of him as well. So they just did it because they wanted to get him off their back. Jane says the police failed to take action when she reported all this.

Finally, when her husband breached the non-molestation order she'd managed to get, he was arrested and jailed. It was when he was released that Jane went to the police terrified about what would happen next and they suggested she be given a new identity and go into witness protection. It's something you might have heard about when people give evidence against dangerous drug lords or mafia rings. It's officially known as the UK Protected Persons Service and is part of the National Crime Agency. She told me how it was explained to her. Well, it was a bit like a sort of a sales pitch. It was like he said, you know, you can go,

you can start over the world you're a lobster, he said to me. You won't lose out. It's kind of like for like, you can just set up the same kind of life somewhere else. And he did say it's hard, but there wasn't a lot of discussion of how it's hard. You know, if I'm honest, I had absolutely no idea how hard it was going to be. Did they spell out at that stage, though, that you would have a new identity? Yeah, they talked about a move and about different names. I started off thinking, oh yeah, yeah, a move, a new name. But then you start to realise just what that entails. New school, new home, new job, new everything. And did they spell that out at the

time? Yeah, I think they did to some degree. I think I was so kind of wound up and afraid. I didn't think quite as much as I should about what it would entail. Whatever they had said to me to do, I probably would have done. They helped her find a new job and provided her and her two children with a new rented home about 120 miles away after she googled towns that she had no connection with. It was the modern day equivalent of sticking a pin in a map, really. My older son was quite stressed by it all. He had anxiety, self-harm. He was cutting his arms. He would text me from bed at night and say, have you locked the door? My younger son, I think, saw it more as some kind of adventure. It's different for him. He doesn't understand

why he can't see his dad. He sometimes asks if he'll ever see him again. Did they get the chance to say goodbye to their friends or explain anything to their friends? No, no, none of us did. They'd had the same childminder since they were like nine months old. So she was like a second mum to them. We left her. We left all my colleagues at work that were like friends, all their school friends, everybody. Like we were just kind of dead to them and they were dead to us. My son said he felt like he'd come on a sort of holiday and it was going to last a few months and we'd all go back. And I think that was kind of in my head as well. It was temporary.

But now it really isn't. This is our life. And obviously your children had to change their names. How did they cope with that? They find it difficult. You know, things like writing your name on your book at school, just people calling your name but not remembering that they're calling you. We would have to practice it at home,

so they would say goodnight to each other and practice with the new names. Jane had to keep in touch with her protection team and obey strict rules, which she says she found increasingly difficult, until after eight months. I was told they couldn't continue to look after me because I wasn't very compliant, because I didn't answer all their phone calls. I got fed up, really, of answering the phone calls. Then I had a little look at something on Facebook, which was a problem. I just looked at someone I'd known, and then I was told I'd failed the assessment period. I didn't even know I was still in an assessment period.

They'd said about an assessment at the beginning, but they didn't tell me how long it was. I mean, how can it be an assessment? Because you turned my life upside down. So there was, like, no trial period because I'm here. And everything's changed. Did they say what happens if you fail the assessment? Not in any clear terms. Someone had said, look, if you fail, you're on your own.

You will need to find your own job. You will need to find your own house and you will need to find your own house and just get on with it, and you won't be getting any psychological support. I would have thought twice about things. Like, all this has happened, and we haven't had any kind of proper, ongoing support. You know, if I'd just got booted out of Love Island, I could go and get a psychologist, but we've had none of that. Even though, you know, this has been like having a limb amputated in the scale that it's affected us. You've got these two policemen who come and visit you every week and have been doing so for nine months. And I think you develop these kind of like emotional bonds with them because they're

the only people really that you're really connected to. It just felt like, oh my god, I'm being cut adrift. I'm just going to be in this kind of weird bubble where I have nobody. She was given the number of one police officer who she says knew nothing about her situation and didn't offer much help. She had no idea where her husband is now. He hasn't responded to any of the family court proceedings. It seems unfair that it's always the woman in this stuff that has to move or whatever. Well, he has total freedom to do what he likes. The woman we're calling Jane talking about what happened to her

and her words were spoken by an actor. It's incredibly difficult to even imagine what that must be like. What are the police and protected persons services saying, Mel? Well, the police told us the complaint wasn't upheld, nor was a subsequent appeal, and it's inappropriate to comment further. The protected person service told us protection usually involves moving a person to a new safe location like in this case they then work with them to keep that location discreet and help rebuild their life and now they

say this is never an easy option and they do need the person's cooperation. By law they can't comment on individual cases but they have added that they have successfully managed similar cases and wouldn't want to put off these type of referrals. There is a context here, though, there isn't there, and general dissatisfaction with how stalking is handled. That is absolutely right. This story, Jane's experience, comes as the police investigate a super complaint, which was lodged last year by the National Stalking Consortium. And that consortium includes the Susie Lampley Trust.

Only 5% of reports of stalking to the police in the year ending March 2022 resulted in any charge. And it is estimated there were nearly 8,000 victims that year. Thank you, Melanie. Well, I can talk now to Dr. Rachel Wheatley from the University of Derby. She's a forensic psychologist who has specialised in researching stalking for 15 years. Morning, Rachel. Welcome to the programme. What do you make of what happened to Jane? Well, you know, you listen to that, don't you? You hear the words. I know that it was an actor's voice, but it's extremely traumatic and isolating. And actually, for Jane, right from the point of the initial incident of intimate partner violence within the relationship. And these things happen and we are advised in society to go to the police.

And actually to get to that point, it's a really big deal. I've not really heard that much about the use of witness protection for stalking cases so you don't really have a lot of experience with that but but then again you know i guess you wouldn't hear about that but i do wonder from listening to that clip as well about whether criminal justice agencies do have some kind of or hold some kind of perfect victim stereotype so you know thinking about how are victims being interpreted when they come across when they're reporting you know and in all sorts of their behaviors when you know they they're

really behaving in a way that's coming from their trauma responses they're very vulnerable and a lot of the times they're just adapting to this new life where they're having to do their own risk management a lot of the time. It's not unusual that I've seen cases that I have worked with where victims and survivors are managing their own risk. They're practically cutting all ties and effectively disappearing because they may have tried other avenues and things aren't working. And, you know, it's really prevalent. Stalking is really, really prevalent. And we know from the research and the surveys on victim impact that it's vast, you know, that victims just want it to stop. But actually, a lot of the time, it doesn't stop.

And everything's affected, their housing, their work performance, their social ability, their, you know, emotional responses. There's been some recent research around 25% considered or actually attempted suicide because of their experiences. And, you know, the children of victims showing symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, around 56%, you know, the impact is is wide it's really wide um and i think as well what you hear in the clip is about what we would consider stalking by proxy yeah and again that is written about in the cps guidance which is people using others legal systems friends family neighbors to pass on messages to continue that contact

and that intrusion into the victim's life, unfortunately. How else could it have been handled, do you think? Well, I think it's difficult to comment because obviously I only know the details from the clip, as everybody's heard here. But, you know, effective handling of these cases really does take some kind of multi-agency management you know the victim support and advocacy needs to be number

one priority right from the start and i also think that legal sanctions need to be applied as soon as possible and some form of quick intervention in terms of perpetrator intervention which needs to be led by you know whatever it is that's that really is the function what are they contributing factors and oftentimes that might be psychological input and quick intervention with the use of stalking protection orders actually has the potential to work really well because that is an application that the police can make at the very earliest opportunity so an interim one can be applied for that puts in place legal restrictions on the person but also positive requirements and an offering of some kind of intervention to help them to be able to desist

from their their behaviors but you know the victim advocacy and support right from the office really really crucial because of the impact. I think what stood out for me and maybe a few people listening is the fact that the victim is not only having to deal with the stalking, but then they have to suffer the trauma of having to uproot their lives. And it's them that have to make the changes to their lifestyle. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that's very common in a lot of the cases that I've seen and that I've worked with from the perpetrator side. You see actually the victim is the one that is making all the changes and the perpetrator oftentimes for quite a period of time don't see that they need to change their behaviours or they can't find a way to change their behaviours

without some kind of intervention. So I think just using purely legal sanctions to address this issue is really short-sighted. What research have you actually been doing to work with stalkers? So my original doctoral research was around working with those that have stalked and to look at what was driving their stalking behaviours. And that was with people that had stalked ex-partner cases. So only sort of 50% of the overall stalking cases, really. But that really was looking at from a qualitative point of view, you know, what was driving your offending?

Why didn't you stop? What were all these issues here? And really that highlighted what I conceptualize as narcissistic vulnerability. So which is basically a psychological vulnerability where they have this constant need for contact, for validation, and they literally couldn't let go. There was something about their own fragility that they really needed some kind of help to step away from that. But the other thing, and I'm very much connected to that, was there was no deterrent.

The arrests, the legal sanctions, they didn't care because the higher order need was for that connection with the victim. I'm involved in all sorts of other bits of research around policing responses, life histories of those that commit these offences, even looking at now proposals for understanding what I call victim adaptive survival responses, where they're having to manage their own risks. So, yeah, victims may be getting back into contact with the person stalking them or arranging to meet or letting them in the home because they know in that situation,

it brings predictability, it might in that situation, help them with their own safety or the safety of their children, which can be interpreted as being harmful to their investigation. But actually, to the person, it's about keeping people safe and sometimes keeping themselves alive. So if there's lots of, I'm sorry. No, sorry. I'm just fascinated by this research that's done into the stalkers and and you know the sort of psychological vulnerability that you were talking there talking about that what works then what works to get them out of that well the reality is we don't actually know yet we know most people will stop stalking at some point the challenge is working out what are the components there for that equation and actually

doing that at the earliest opportunity and it does depend on the type of stalking case. So for the ex-partner stalking cases, there's a lot happening around the country in particular. And one of the things that we've been trialling in the Midlands is the EASY project, which is the early awareness stalking intervention and that is an offering of very short-term psychological intervention or perpetrators at the earliest opportunity at the charging stage to allow them to work on I guess desisting and really unhooking from those thoughts and feelings that are pulling them towards continuing their stalking behaviours but there's lots of trials and pilots going on around the country at the moment. We've had a message in from somebody listening, quite distressing one. This story is minimal, she says. My ex-husband was violent to all of us, nearly killed me and could have killed my

two-year-old when he threw him across the room. After stalking and threats, police told me to change our identities and break all contacts. I moved far away with a fractured spine and impaired mobility. I had to find a new house myself i received no financial support from him and no benefits at the time why do you think rachel um the stalking protection laws are not used by the police more often um i i think there needs to be some kind of full whole system approach to tackling this i think i think it that from the off i think we don't use the word stalking enough i don't think there's no specific legal definition which doesn't really

help but i don't think we're very good at recognizing it and also being able to come forward and talk about stalking and so therefore the you know the society misidentification police misidentification we're calling it other things we're calling it harassment we're calling it you know whatever um and the police will then look to charge for lower level offenses and malicious communications for example i just don't think across the board we're picking it up i think the investigations can be quite complex because when people report it they are still in the crime you know know, they're still experiencing that. And then I think there are issues with applying for stalking protection orders,

you know, complexities with if there are existing orders in place, what would be the added value of an SPO? And really, I think we need to work through all of those different tiers just to see where the barriers are. I think there is a huge willingness, particularly from the police forces and the National Police League that I work with, for us to really get to grips with and apply this more robustly. But I think we need to work out what these barriers are.

Dr. Rachel Wheatley, thank you for speaking to me this morning and thank you to the person who sent that message in, 84844 is the number to text if you do want to tell us about anything that you're listening to on the programme and your own stories. Details of organisations offering information and support with domestic abuse are available at bbc.co.uk slash actionline

or you can call for free at any time to hear recorded information on 0800 88809. Now, this week, Uganda's President Yoweri Museveni signed the Anti-Homosexuality Bill into law. It's a country already known for its strict laws against LGBT people. But the new bill includes legislation changes such as the death penalty for what is being described as aggravated homosexuality. For example, anyone engaging in gay sex who's infected with a lifelong illness such as HIV. The bill also states that anyone facilitating same-sex marriage in the country could face up to seven years imprisonment

and anyone promoting or normalising LGBT relationships could be served whole life sentences. Well, Kasia Nabogasera is an activist and founder of Freedom and rome uganda one of the main lesbian bisexual and transgender women's rights organizations in the country and she joins us now to discuss the new legislation and what it means for the community going forward kasha welcome to woman's hour um i'm speaking to you as i've just just mentioned there this week as uganda's new anti-homosexuality bill, it's been signed into law.

I want to start by asking how you feel about it. Well, for me, it's a terrible feeling because I've been in this situation a decade ago. And so to be back in the same scenario is really heartbreaking. But at the same time, also, I'm more heartbroken that I'm far away from home. So I have mixed feelings that I can easily continue the struggle without having to worry about watching my back. But at the same time, I also need to be with my community because I've inspired so many to join the community when I started it 20 years ago. So it's a lot going on in my mind and my head right now.

Because you're currently in the US, you're in America. Yes, I came for treatment. So what are some of the key changes that have been made to the law, what are you most worried about? I can't say really key elements of the change because Ugolans had already seen the first draft of the bill that criminalised identity, and that's already playing a very big impact. So whether identity was removed from the law before it was signed or not,

it's already being used to affect the community. But the mere fact that the proponents of the bill say that they're protecting children, yet at the same time they're criminalizing children in this law is really confusing. But also Uganda has been known as a strong fighter, a leader in the fight against HIV and AIDS. But to say to it that even now, concerning adults who are HIV, are criminalized and could face a death penalty as aggravated homosexuals. So really, this is very troubling. To see that a lot is happening with impunity at home, to see that non-state actors are already acting and taking the law into their hands. So a lot is happening. There's a lot of fear and panic within the community. Who do you mean by non-state actors? Yes, because we have the state actors. Now these are the police and the parliament that are

passing these laws. But also we have our neighbours. We have our landlords who are already frightened and scared of being victims of the law. And right now I'm looking at an eviction letter that someone has just received. And so we have non-state actors that these are our villages, people we live with in our villages who are already attacking people. We have a transgender woman fighting for her life right now who was mutilated two days ago. And so we are seeing so many people taking the law into their hands. Even if it's not yet gazetted, it's already an act of parliament,

so it's already law. So we are seeing a lot of things happening. And so this law is not only going to affect LGBT persons, but it's also going to affect our allies, our families, our friends. It's turning people against each other. Yes, there's a lot of blackmail. There's a lot of extortion taking place. There's a lot of intimidation taking place

because you're seeing people who have been in relations for a long time, landlords and tenants, are now splitting up because of the fear of what the law is talking about, renting your premises to any suspected or perceived LGBT persons or their work. So we are seeing that this law is not in good faith. And the proponents of the law, I think, underestimated the impacts that it would cause because it's really going to affect so many Ugandans and our lives. Even you just now, if you were in Uganda, you would face 20 years

in prison because now this would be termed as promotion of homosexuality. Just by interviewing you? Yes, because you're giving a homosexual a platform to speak because this is something that we've been facing over the years, that we've been censored to speak. Yet the anti-gay people have always been given the platform to spread hate and stigma.

Hasn't stopped you though, Kasia? Yeah, we have to keep fighting. We have to devise means of how to really educate and create awareness. And that's why I started the media platform, which is our LGBT media platform, so that we could be able to sensitize the masses to create awareness. Because even if we change these laws without changing the attitudes of the people we live with, it won't do so much. So we are doing both changing laws but also trying to change the attitudes of the people we live with so that they understand

who we are instead of just listening to all the myths and the lies and the allegations of us promoting and recruiting and all that. You started your platform, I mentioned in the opener, you founded Freedom in Rome 20 years ago. What do you think will happen to that now? Do you think it could be shut down? Yeah, already before in the past six months, the organisation has been working remotely.

Many organisations have been working remotely. Many organizations have been working remotely since the shutdown of our network. And so we learned a lot during COVID shutdown on how to devise means of service delivery to our people. So we are going back on the drawing board to see how we can really utilize this because a lot of our physical spaces, drop-in centers are going to shut down. And many have already been temporarily shut down for protection and security reasons.

And so I was talking to the director of Freedom and Rome Uganda, and she was telling me that they're going to go back to using what they used during COVID lockdown to see that our members continue to receive the services and, you know, everything that they're supposed to receive. So we do not want the movement to really shut down. We still have a struggle to fight. We still have many people who need our services. What was your own experience as a lesbian in Uganda? My experience has always been that I've never been in the closet.

So I had to face it even rougher because ignorantly I lived openly gay as a lesbian. How old were you when you came out? I've never come out because I've never been in the closet. I didn't know that even a closet existed until I started activism. So these are not even our words. These are words from the West, closets and what. For us, I only got to know that these words existed when I started activism because I openly lived gay always being expelled from schools one to the other because always being

exposed in the newspapers and I didn't know that it was actually even illegal to be gay I didn't know even I had to come out those words I'd never heard of, come out, you know. So for me, as we fight and struggle to challenge this law, I'm ready when I get better, because I came here for my medical, I'm ready when I get better to go and join my people, because we didn't start to stop halfway. So the struggle for me has actually just begun. So how did you navigate relationships then in a country with some of the strictest homosexuality laws? It was easy for me being out and very many people being in the closet looking for someone.

It was easy for me to get. So it was somehow my marketing strategy. So many people actually approached me. Many people actually approached me because they knew I could lead them to other people. And so for me, it helped me actually build a movement because people approached me and then they found that I had other people with me and then they got connected. And so the movement kept growing and growing and growing. Yeah.

Not everyone was an activist, but at least we had a very vibrant social movement. And so a few of us decided to make it political while we still also enjoyed the social part of the struggle. And back to this bill, why do you believe this law was voted for by all but one Ugandan parliamentarian? No, it's because they tried to avoid what happened last time. That is the issue of Quorum. So this time all of them had to bid because they also campaigned. Even the Speaker of Parliament did a lot of campaigning and even intimidation, making sure that every member of parliament

voted, even those who are non-physical, to vote online. Just like last time, two members of parliament were against the bill, even this time, two members of parliament were against the bill. And, of course, Fox Odoi has been consistent. Honorable Fox Odoi has been consistent since the first time when the bill was tabled in Parliament a decade ago. He was consistent even this time, also producing the minority report. And he's also joining us in court and challenging the law.

So you see the integrity of people who are not willing to be intimidated, people who are willing to stand, even if they stand alone, on the right side of history. I mean, the Ugandan government would probably disagree that there's been intimidation. They'd say it was their conscience. Well, we know and we've seen, and everyone who really knows how to analyse can see during the debating of the bills

how Honourable Fox O'Doyle was addressed when he was reading his minority report and how even the Speaker of Parliament kept calling out everyone, even those who are not in Parliament. What can the international community do? First of all, especially the international community who are taxpayers, because we depend a lot on taxpayers' donations and funds and aid. It's time to hold your governments accountable

to know how your taxes are actually being allocated. So we call upon the international community to hold your governments accountable because we want aid that is inclusive and we want aid that has policies that are non-discriminatory. And this is the aid that comes to Uganda. So it's time to be revisited. But also we need the international community

to reach out, to say hello to people, to find out how they are, because lots of people are having mental breakdown right now. Don't just call us when you need interviews or research and all this. So this is a very trying period for many people, very many. And we also need resources. We need financial resources. People are being displaced. People are crossing the border without anything on their backs. And they are reaching out and saying, I'm stuck, but I had to run because so-and-so found out and they're going to tell my parents. And so we need financial resources. We need a lot of help. We need even technical

support because now we have to start to resort to working remotely. So we need things like computers so that people can safely work in the comfort of their homes without having to congregate all the time. So yeah, we need a lot of support. Sign our petitions when you see them moving around. When you see demonstrations going on, please join. Yeah. Kasia Nabogasara, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning and we wish you all the best with your health as well. Thank you so much. Now, did you grow up in the 90s and the noughties during the advent of the internet when MSN chat rooms and MySpace were the dominant platforms? Well, I'm joined by one woman who was part of that first generation that came of age

on the internet and is exploring the long-term impact it had on her harriet gibson is a journalist and author of a new memoir is this okay it's one woman's search for connection online which examines her lifelong relationship with the internet and social media it's powerful often funny look at the pros and cons of online connection at different stages of a life from being a teen to becoming a music journalist and then a mother, and how social media addiction gradually took hold. And I'm delighted to say that Harriet is here IRL in the studio. Lovely to see you. Why did you want to write a memoir through the social media lens? Well, for starters, I suppose it's the only thing I really truly feel like I'm an expert in.

I've been staring at people online for 20 years and I feel like I'm kind of good at it. And I suppose there's another slightly more meaningful answer, which is I'd come out the other side of quite a difficult five year period in which I was diagnosed with the early menopause. The symptoms were really isolating and I didn't have peers who were experiencing it at the same time as me. I then did fertility treatment, which can be lonely in its own weird way. I'd had a really bad birth and then it was lockdown. That's a lot. It was a lot. And I came out the other side realising I just had this desperate urge to communicate with people and connect to people and kind of scream into the abyss, like I'm doing this shameful thing. Is anyone else doing it too? And should we all stop stop it there's lots of people admitting to lots of parasocial relationships we'll come to some of those in a minute but um your your generation the millennials were perhaps

the first generation to come of age online you were the canaries in the coal mine maybe it was an innocent time but also you were just less aware we were all less aware of the risks back then weren't we yeah absolutely like my parents definitely didn't sanction me logging on to chat rooms but I did so anyway just because I was a curious young person and when you're a teenager you want to explore the whole world suddenly I had access to human beings beyond my own social circle so it was it was a really exciting time but then naturally you you you're communicating in a way that was way too grown up for you like msn yeah it was just constant romances and breakups and having conversations with people you'd never normally have in real life because you'd be so

just so shamed and red-faced reading when i was reading your memoir it kind of all the memories are flooding back of oh yeah the first time i went on a chat room and i remember and it's interesting because i was talking about my parasocial 25 year relationship with keanu reeves earlier yeah i have admitted that um but the first person i met on a chat room you know my friends i was only a teenager said oh yes i look just like keanu reeves maybe i could help you with your homework awful awful awful never left me anyway you describe back to your questions um you describe your childhood pre-internet your favorite hobby i love this was snooping on your neighbors let's talk about that and how did that transition was it maybe the internet was it was perfect

timing for you because it just went from one thing to the other yeah it's funny isn't it i i think a lot of people have that natural curiosity to see what it's like to be someone else. Yeah, just to know, how are you dealing with life every day? That's why reality TV so big, I suppose. But yeah, a friend and I used to climb onto the top of her playhouse and stare at this poor elderly couple. And we'd sit there for hours watching them and nothing really happened. But we just found it quite thrilling, even if the tiniest gesture was made and I can see how now the internet was really primed to make me completely addicted because that's what the internet is to me it's this it's this window into every other human being's life and the intricacies of how they work. Do you think it's a habit you'd have continued without access to the internet? Oh that's a great. So would I still be sort of sneaking around?

Peering through people's windows? I'm probably, yeah. Depressingly, yes, I probably would be doing it. Is there something about being able to lurk for women that is empowering on the internet? Yeah, I suppose you grow up from a very young age, kind of those tween years onwards, being stared at and being public property.

And I've always found it really powerful to be the voyeur. And yeah, knowing that you're not hurting anybody, I just think it's a really powerful, interesting thing to be able to gaze at someone's life when you so often feel like you're the person being gazed at not anymore I must add but you know when you're a very young girl it happens a lot and you navigated your first loves on msn and myspace yeah how do you think being online wired you to think differently about relationships oh that's a fantastic question

well I would say that you shouldn't enter a relationship idolizing someone. So if you follow someone on a forum, in my example, so I used to follow people on music forums and think they were really funny and witty. And then I kind of thought they were already above me and better than me before I'd even met them. And that's not a healthy basis for any relationship. But I think the Internet's also been really useful. I mean, I kind of owe the internet to my relationship with my husband because I found tweets that his ex-girlfriend had posted about him and it made me realise what a funny, strange man he was. And without that, I might not have known that about him. So it can be useful as well. So you, but did you purposefully search out those

tweets? Yes, yes. I mean, I went back for about 10 years of her tweets poor thing I'm sorry but yeah I did I think a lot of people do that the ex is always very intriguing online isn't it yeah uh discuss for 844 get in touch um uh you have exposed a lot of how you exactly that kind of stalk and well not we're not we're just we aren't talking we're talking about we're not talking about anything intimidating or illegal here. But yes, you've opened up a lot in the memoir. Did you ever think at some point, maybe I should hold that back? Or did you think, if I'm going to write this, I need to... Yeah, I felt like I had to give a little bit too much so it was uncomfortable.

Otherwise, people wouldn't really connect to it. But every decision I made has been very carefully thought about nothing's in there recklessly but I wanted people not to feel lonely and I think in order to do that I had to share very granular details about some things I was embarrassed by. And people are doing it this morning because one of the things we've picked up on is the parasocial relationships that you describe and it's a very funny chapter where you talk about your Chris Martin fantasies. Explain what they are and why they gave you such a thrill. Well, I think a lot of parasocial relationships

are about escapism and comfort. And I've had a crush on Chris Martin since I was 15 when I joined the Coldplay fan club. There was only a thousand of us and they used to send us letters. One of the originals. Yeah. And, you know, 20 years on, I'm still there.

I think it just is a really fun way to explore things without actually having to do it in real life. And, you know, Chris and I might not really get on in real life. So it's really lovely to have this safe space that I can retreat to when I can just disappear into weird fantasies about spending Christmas Day at Chris Martin's house with Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah, loads of people. Shall we share some of other people's parasocial relationships?

Someone here said, Anita, I had to pull over and message in regarding teenage crushes and how mine came true. David Cassidy adorned my bedroom wall and I dreamed of marrying him. Going forward to being 17 and starting art school, on my course on the first day, a guy with longish hair dark glasses American bomber jacket very handsome spitting image of Mr. Cassidy we are celebrating our 38th wedding anniversary today um there's another bit that stood out for me about um your relationship with social media and when it started

becoming problematic at university and you developed your inner critic voice yeah but your inner critic voice was that of alexa chung she just wears clothes so well so well and i couldn't effortless effortless like she wears a pair of dungarees and she looks like a beam of celestial light and i look like a angry toddler and i just it just has frustrated me for years every time I try outfits on in the mirror she's there on my shoulder going that is terrible and I'm sure she's really really nice in reality but she's she's a sort of a nasty critic in my mind sadly. When did you realise that your relationship with the internet was problematic? I've always known it's been toxic and I don't want to I mean self-harm is a big word, but I did used to look at it to kind of punish myself.

But then as I got older and especially in the motherhood years, there were periods where I was feeling really mentally unstable and I started disassociating. And instead of addressing those feelings, I would avoid them by looking at my phone from the second I woke up to the minute I went to bed and you really need to process emotions for them to be released and I think if you block that it's really dangerous. And how are you now? I'm okay but I'm also promoting a book so I have to go on quite a lot but I'm good I feel I feel like I'm I'm very conscious of what I'm doing now. You have a healthier relationship with it now? Yeah. Have you trained yourself? Yeah, yeah. It's been, yeah, a long process, but I don't feel addicted in the way that I used to.

It's funny, it's insightful, you'll laugh at bits. There's some great musical references in it as well, obviously being a music journalist. I want to wish you all the best. Thank you. With the memoir, it's out now. It's by Harriet Gibson and it's called... Is This Okay? Is This you all the best. Thank you. With the memoir, it's out now. It's by Harriet Gibson

and it's called... Is This Okay? Is This Okay? Thank you. Thank you so much. That's about it from me. Thank you to everybody who's been getting in touch

with your brilliant messages. I haven't read them all out online, but I'm going to be reading them after the programme and chuckling to myself until tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, it's me, Jade Adams, and I'm back with a second series of Welcome to the Neighbourhood. This is the Radio 4 podcast, where myself and a celebrity guest like to have a nosy round social media groups from up and down the country. Bit of a strange one, but I am looking to get rid of a secondhand coffin. My mum has found this little metal box in her garden. Could anybody local please remove three stitches out of my neck? This series, I'm joined by some top people, including Nick Grimshaw. It's a grenade!

Izzy Stutty. That's my favourite reply. And self-esteem. If you think I should cover this one up, you should see my other one, bloody hell. Head to BBC Sounds to find brand new episodes of Welcome to the Neigh with me jade adams i'm sarah 11 and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories i've ever

covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.