Woman's Hour - Woman in the Royal Navy 'was raped on ship'

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

A woman who served in the Royal Navy for 20 years speaks for the first time about how she was raped and sexually assaulted during her career. Speaking to Emma Barnett on Woman’s Hour she describes experiencing several other incidents of sexual harassment during her time serving, including a colleague putting his penis on her shoulder. She says that when a senior colleague discovered she was pregnant, they suggested that an appointment be made for her to have an abortion. The Conservative MP Sarah Atherton serves on the Defence Select Committee, and led an inquiry last year into the experiences of women in the armed forces, which heard from 4200 women, including some 9% of women currently serving in the armed forces. The Atherton report found that 64 percent of female veterans and 58 percent of currently-serving women reported experiencing bullying harassment or discrimination during their careers. Sarah joins Emma to give her response to Catherine’s story.Lieutenant colonel Diane Allen, served for 37 years in the Army before resigning last year. She has previously called for a Me Too moment across the military. Diane has a website- forwarned - where she collates testimony from serving and former service personnel and joins Emma Barnett. At 53, Jenifer Aniston has opened up for the first time about spending years ‘throwing everything’ at trying to conceive, following years of speculation. There are so many stories of eventual happy endings for those on the infertility road. But what about those how who don’t have that? Emma Barnett is joined by Caroline Stafford, a baker, who shares her own experiences of what happens when things don’t work out.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today we're looking at allegations of sexual assault in the Royal Navy because a woman who served for 20 years has broken her silence and spoken for the first time about something she's never felt able to share before. We're calling her Catherine to protect her identity and shortly you're going to hear her talk about being raped while serving on a ship, becoming pregnant as a

result and then a senior colleague suggesting she have an abortion. She felt compelled to speak now because of a series of allegations about the treatment of women in the Royal Navy in newspapers in recent weeks. Those allegations have focused on the experience of women on submarines, but today we hear an insight into life on board ships. Women have been allowed to serve alongside men on ships since 1993 and on submarines since 2011. Catherine remains very proud of her years of service, a poignant truth not to lose sight of, especially on the eve of Armistice Day, as we remember the service of our armed forces. Here is the woman we are calling Catherine. Her words are spoken by an actor. I began by asking her for her reaction to seeing those stories in the newspapers about fellow women in the Royal Navy. My emotions

were kind of mixed. I wasn't surprised that the allegations came out. I was more surprised that the hierarchy of the Royal Navy was saying they never knew that any of this was happening. Yeah, I was angry that this kind of behaviour is still going on and that women of today are still being subjected to this kind of behaviour. So it's a bit mixed, really. Upset, anger and kind of surprised but not surprised at the same time. Talk to me about that anger. Why do you feel anger? Women have been at sea now since the early 90s and there was a big transition then. It was very new and yes, it's still very new now on submarines.

But actually, we've had over 20 years of getting used to you know male and female working alongside each other so angry that actually the MOD still hadn't got to grips with how men and women can work alongside each other there's probably in all walks of life or always sadly going to be behavior that is unacceptable but the MOD still don't seem to have a grip on how to deal with that and what to do with it and how to have a positive outcome. Why did you want to talk to me today? Well, I think there's part of me that feels that we should never have been at this point where these ladies are having to go to a newspaper to have their voice heard. And perhaps if some of us in the past had been a bit more vocal

and made a few more complaints and waves, they may not have been subjected to this now. And it isn't, sadly, really sadly, what these ladies have been through more recently. It's not new. Women have been going through this sort of behaviour for years and years. And I suppose if we don't all speak up and have a voice, it's going to carry on. Let's talk about that behaviour, because when you joined the Navy, men were still getting used to having women at sea, weren't they?

Yeah. And I can remember on the very first ship that I joined, it was very clear that the men weren't necessarily happy with having the women on board. And they were still trying their kind of little ways to make you feel unhappy so that you would complain and that the powers that be would think, oh, actually, this isn't working. Let's get women off the ships again. And, yeah, it was really tough, actually, where for so many years we had to kind of prove that we could do the job. But sadly, that also meant that we had to put up with, you know, wrong behaviour. Could you tell me about some of the wrong behaviour that happened to you? Yeah. So just a few sort of glimpses into it really one day i was sat at a desk um typing and all of

a sudden i had my um supervisor's uh penis tapping away on my shoulder completely out of any clothes it was just there i'm not quite sure what that was going to achieve or anything. Sorry, just before you move on, I mean, that's an extraordinary insight into a behaviour that, you know, never mind in the workplace, it would be very hard to imagine in a, I don't know, at best a jokey social setting. What was the...

Was anything said? What was the mood Was anything said? What was the mood? Literally nothing was said. He just came behind me. He was checking what I was doing. He was my supervisor. And there it was, on my shoulder. And he just put his penis on your shoulder while you were at your desk?

Yeah. You kind of, like, think, I'm not quite sure what i do here do i say anything and make a big scene of it do i carry on and hope it goes away it's one of those moments where you kind of think i'm not even sure is this is this actually happening you know and if that was to happen today in 2022 um in fact if someone someone came behind me now, I think I would do the same kind of freeze moment. What do you think? What the hell am I meant to carry on?

I don't know. It's one of those weird kind of moments that it was almost like, well, this is how things are. You know, you just put up with whatever comes next. And it might not be um you know necessarily a sexual assault but it's uh it's just a behavior where they try to make you feel uncomfortable so that hopefully they won't have to put up with you there for much longer that sounds absolutely horrific and i understand there were even more serious sexual assaults that happened to you. Yeah. So in my very early days of joining the service, I struggled with a few things.

And I was told by my supervisors on the course, my course instructors, that I had to do whatever I could to pass the course or I'll be sent home and discharged. And at the time, there were some physical training instructors who would help us get through the course but in the help to get through the course they expected sexual favours in return and I do recall I think at the time that it was in the paper actually that some people would make complaints about that sort of thing. So, you know, I was given this ultimatum of go down to the sports hall and do whatever you can, do whatever is necessary to pass the course or we'll discharge you.

And so I had to kind of learn very quickly as a young woman that this is how we get through life. This is how they expect you as a woman to get through your career. And when I went on to my next establishment, on one particular night, one of the senior instructors of my course did assault me. And I reported it the very next morning to another. And I was actually given an ultimatum of you can take the official line and you can make your complaint to the service police. But we'll contact your next ship and tell them that you've caused this trouble and that you're a troublemaker and you may not then be trusted in your future career. Or we can deal with it here.

It will be closed doors. It won't be made official. And you can go off next week and you can join a ship and you can have your career. And so, again, it was very early in my career that I had a... Well, it's just sort of rammed down me that you kind of put up and shut up if you want your career. But, I mean, I am really proud of my career and I've had some really happy times and the sad and uncomfortable times that I talk about although there's a lot of them it's actually a minority of my time so I'm still really happy that I served and I'm still really proud of my service and I'm really proud of all of those people I've served alongside.

I'm just not necessarily happy with the culture that was OK at the time. And that sadly, in light of the recent press, is still there today. I understand your pride, but I know it's important to you to try and put an aim on what happened to you as well, to recognise those very dark times as well as the good times. And I also understand you sustained injuries. Yes. So there was a time when I did sustain some injuries. I had some bruising and some cuts. And actually, it happened on a ship. And I needed medical attention as well.

And I was given sleeping tablets and signed off of duties for a couple of days. And I've since, not long ago, actually, I got a copy, a whole copy of my medical records, and my medical records didn't mention any of that. It says that I was given sleeping tablets and signed off of work because I was homesick. It was no mention of any assault, no mention of any of the cuts and bruises or the medical attention that I needed and actually that was that was a medical member of staff with a direct access to the captain of the ship that could have helped or said something but instead it is kind of brushed under the carpet and we'll just put something else in the medical records because she'll never know and she may not even ever read these medical records. So was that a sexual assault? Yes, it was, yeah.

And it was that bad you sustained injuries? Yeah. And several years later, I was pregnant. I had a child, and all through my pregnancy, it makes me really sad to think that, you know, I went through this now, but at the time I was begging my midwife to allow me to have a cesarean It makes me really sad to think that, you know, I went through this now. But at the time, I was begging my midwife to allow me to have a cesarean because I couldn't bear anyone to think, to see any damage or anything

that had been caused previously. Yeah, that's probably the worst time I went through, really. See, you didn't want doctors to see you during the birth of your child because the harm that you'd been caused, the injuries that you had received were so severe? Yeah. Or I believe they were. Would you describe, however you did sustain those injuries,

would you describe that as rape? Yeah. you did sustain those injuries would you describe that as rape um yeah there wasn't any there wasn't any consent given it was uh i i don't think you could describe it in any other way i think it's really important for you to be the one to say that i don't want to suppose anything about what happened to you but but if you're describing something which had made you feel like you couldn't be seen by doctors in a different setting it it does sound like it was incredibly difficult and and and violent it was it was just horrible and uh it was kind of like the time of my life where I was really grateful you know that I had this at the end of it. I had this lovely little bundle of joy to cuddle and to love.

But actually, in the kind of the approach up to that, that wasn't a memorable journey. Yeah. Have you ever spoken about this before? Have you ever talked to those who are close to you about this happening to you? No, not to those who are close to you about this happening to you no not to those that are close to me um I've recently in the last few years been searching for counselling and for for help because it does affect me it you know it affects almost every single day um the things that I've been through they affect everything I do in life it's there and there's

also a big struggle in trying to find the right mental health support for something like this um there's a lot of mental health support out there if you've sustained things like PTSD during combat um but there's very little help and support if you've sustained mental health issues because of sexual trauma whilst you've been serving. And a lot of the help and support that is out there is for where you've sustained it through one single incident of sexual trauma. You know, not through years of being subjected to a culture of wrongdoing. I eventually did find some help and I did receive a formal diagnosis of complex PTSD due to my service. And thankfully I am now receiving some directed mental health support. That's very good to hear.

And it sounds, as you say, like it's been difficult to find to try to get that support in any way. If I can, to what you just said about being raped, did you report that? Were you able to say anything to anybody? No, I didn't report it. And there was an element of, am I going to be accused again of causing trouble like I had been previously if I reported something? And also my life was moving on. I was having to leave one place and go to another because I was going to have a baby. And, you know, when I got to the next place where

I was going to spend my maternity, I was actually told by a very senior officer that I was bringing shame on the Navy because I was a single female that had become pregnant at sea. That if I was his daughter, he'd be very ashamed of me. And he actually, I laugh because I just can't believe he even said it. He actually gave me a few extra days off, free leave kind of thing, to go home and contemplate my future and told me in no uncertain terms an appointment could be arranged for me next week and I could go back to the ship a few days later with no questions asked. So when you've got people like that who are the very people that you could potentially complain to or raise these issues to, saying that you are the one that's done the wrongdoing, you are the person that's brought shame on the Navy,

that you are the one bringing us into disrepute. How on earth do you open your mouth and say, hold up, but not once have you asked me if I'm okay with this. Not once have you asked me how this even happened when there's a no-touch rule in force and we've been at sea for several weeks. You know, not once did anyone say to me, are you OK? It was all a question of, oh, my gosh, look what you've done. This is the shame that you're bringing on. It's not long that women have been at sea, women have fought for this position and you've created another issue. So who do you go to when you're in that situation?

So, no, I didn't report it. So to be clear, you had an abortion suggested to you? Yes. By a senior member of the Navy? He didn't use the word abortion, but he did tell me that an appointment could be made for me the following week and I could be back on the ship a few days later. Again, because I just want to be clear,

had you become pregnant through the assault, through the rape? Yes. Do you know of other people who have experienced this? I know other people who've sadly become pregnant or happily become pregnant, whichever way you want to look at it, through instances that may not have been a relationship or may not have been consented to and are you talking about in the in the navy and in the forces yeah in the forces in general not just the navy um i think if and the powers that be be actually do conduct an investigation into what's happened in the submarine service, I would actually really like to see that that investigation take place from an outside organisation, not an internal group of people.

I'd also like to see that extended across the naval service and indeed across the other services as well. And I think that we've come to a point where this has become made public, that this has been happening. We've got a few people now to sit up and go, this should never happen, let's look at it, let's see what we can do to put this right. But actually, that probably needs to happen across all of the services, not only the submarine service. And I think the only way that anyone is going to get to any positive outcome out of it and to move things forward and to make positive changes is if it's an external body of people that do the investigation.

I'll come back to that in just a moment. But to finish, if I can, with your career, I imagine things were different for you when you were pregnant. But when you came back and carried on serving, did assaults, but there was always sexual terminology, phrases, actions and so on. One term that I really and I know a lot of women really, really despise the use of it. A lot of men will and still refer to a woman as split arse. And that is a term used to describe a woman as like a sex object so you'd always hear oh here comes those splits did you see that splits so you'd always have that kind of terminology around you uh there would always be little things you know a smack on the bum as you walk past or just generally talking about who they would want to how many crates they would need to drink to have sex with a certain person. And the more crates they would need, the less attractive they would find you. But they would still do it as if they had to do it.

I figured that actually if I could make sure that I was unattractive and hideous, I would be less likely to be assaulted. And so I just ate. I lost interest in taking care of myself and and hoped it would all kind of go away if I was hideous so you actively did away with your own fitness or or any of that side of things to to try and become less of a target yeah yeah if you're too big or too ugly you ugly, you are less likely to be a target. But there'll be some of you listening today that maybe say you joined a different Navy. It's not like that now or it's different. Things have moved on.

We also hear from the First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Ben Key, calling some of the claims we've been reading about from women abhorrent, saying sexual harassment has no place in the Royal Navy, will not be tolerated. Anyone who's found culpable will be held accountable. What do you say to those who say it's different? And do you have faith things have changed? Well, to anyone saying that it's different, I hope it is different because I really wouldn't want anyone joining the Navy or any of the other services now to go through anything like that. But the claims in the Daily Mail, you know,

I think they really need to be taken seriously. And whilst it's great that he can say that this behaviour has no place in the Royal Navy, yes, it doesn't have any place in the Royal Navy, but that doesn't mean that it's not happening, which is one reason why I said earlier about perhaps investigations need to happen from an outside agency rather than an internal agency. Because, I mean, the other part of this is, you know, which you've also talked about is that, you know, you're often stuck in confined spaces together with the type of work

that's going on, whether it's on ships or submarines and women within the forces and specifically within the royal navy you know want to feel safe yeah and sadly whichever way you turn for help it's often not there some of the people that you could report it to um are going to be living alongside the very people that may have done this and having a beer with them after work in the bar. So how do you... There was no complaint system that is completely separate to the people who are serving.

So anyone that's going to investigate a complaint is actually serving and working alongside the people who you're complaining about. You've been listening to the woman we are calling Catherine and her words were voiced by an actor. The Secretary of State for Defence, Ben Wallace, has given the following statement to Woman's Hour this morning. I'm very serious about tackling this issue. I would also say that the military I left 25 years ago is a very different armed forces. And I would challenge the assertion that the reforms we are making are not changing things. We are removing service complaints from the chain of command,

investing in a new serious crime unit across all services, linking poor responses by commanders to their careers, taking fast administrative action to remove people when required and ensuring a stricter code of Crown Prosecution Service or Service Prosecuting Authority trial paths than ever before. Much of Sarah Atherton, who you're going to hear from in a moment, a Conservative MP's report, is being implemented and a lot of the serving personnel I speak to, like the Service Women's Network, agree that things are improving, things are changing and many women serving today would say they are but there are challenges as there are in the civilian world. We've had an anonymous message

come in on email. Listening now to Women's Hour and as a veteran of the Royal Navy myself, it is bringing up some really nasty memories for me. Ones we just had to put up with. This woman is absolutely on point. We were considered pathetic if complaining. I have a couple of really horrendous situations to go alongside. It's not okay, and to the point about this being historic, the attitude is still there in some respect, reads this message. I know that through the people I still know in the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy was the best thing I ever did, some of my best memories,

but the environment was not safe or appropriate for women when it should be. The captains and divisional officers were sleeping with girls on board or prostitutes alongside and then sitting down and appraising us. Reads that message, which as I say, is anonymous. That's always a choice to you should you wish to get in touch with us on the programme today

about anything you hear, but specifically about these much more sensitive stories. If there's something you want to contribute, you do not have to give your name. The number you need to get in touch is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can email me or the team through the Woman's Hour website on social media at BBC Woman's Hour

or get in touch via WhatsApp or send a voice note on 03700 100 444. Do check for those charges. But as just mentioned by the Secretary of State for Defence, Sarah Atherton is the Conservative MP for Wrexham. She's also an armed forces veteran and very recently and very briefly a junior defence minister in Liz Truss's government.

Sarah serves on the Defence Select Committee. She's still there where she led an inquiry last year into the experiences of women in the armed forces, which heard from 4,200 women, including some 9% of women currently serving in the armed forces. As it's become known, the Atherton report found that 64% of female veterans and 58% of currently serving women reported experiencing bullying, harassment or discrimination during their careers. The inquiry also heard evidence of sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape

experienced by service women. The committee discovered a lack of faith in the complaint system. Six in 10 women did not report what they experienced and of those who did complain, a third rated the experience extremely poor. Well, Sarah Atherton has taken the time to listen to Catherine's story and here is her reaction and wider take on what needs to change. Well I was deeply saddened by her account and you know this is for a woman who had stepped up to serve our country and you know this repugnant behaviour is really quite unacceptable and incompatible with civil society and a professional military. And I'm pleased to hear that she's getting the support she needed.

But this is totally unacceptable. But unfortunately, as someone that ran an inquiry into the experiences of women in the armed forces and female veterans, it's too familiar. What about the idea it's changed? It's not like that anymore people say this is this is all historic these sorts of things yes there's a lot of legacy what they call legacy um historical accounts coming out i'm pleased to say and i hope she'll take some reassurance in this

that it has changed and is changing um and i'll go through, if you like, some of the changes that the MOD have embraced through the recommendations made in the Defence Select Committee's report. And one in particular is around removing the chain of command from complaints, which I think has continually proven to be a problem, a pinch point with making complaints, because it's that abuse of power. So things have changed quite significantly. But from my point of view, not fast enough and not far enough. The Armed Forces Complaints System, the changes to that, that you're starting to talk a bit about

there, is due to come into force on the 19th of November, a little bit later this month. Does that go far enough? Do those changes go far enough? Yes, there's a few changes. There's a transition of the service complaint system, which will remove the chain of command from complaints of a sexual nature, which the evidence suggests was a big problem during the inquiry. And the three services now will have independent, or they say independent of their unit, central admissibility teams. So a woman now, or a man, can make a complaint through the central admissibility team, not their chain of command. So when the MOD say

that's independent, it's independent of the chain of command, not the military. So that is a new system that was set up in June, and that's up and running now. So that removes that abuse of power that we see so often in complaints. But on the 19th of November, the MOD are introducing a zero tolerance policy with a presumption of discharge if anyone is found to have perpetrated an act or sexual act or brought the military into disrepute. So what's not going far enough? Is it that the military is still involved with

investigating the military? Well, there's a couple of areas that I would like to see the MOD go further with, because I would like to see this new complaint structure where complainants go through a central admissibility team to extend not just to complaints of a sexual nature but complaints of intimidation, harassment and bullying also. I also would like to see the zero tolerance policy apply to voyeurism and people that stand back having done the mandatory bystander training and do not report and then collude with these acts by not coming forward and assisting as they should do. So I would like to see that zero tolerance extended. It was confirmed that it will apply to phase one military training, which was an area that we weren't sure about, but the MOD have now confirmed that. And if anyone has ever read the report that I chaired,

I would also like to see rape cases trialled in civilian courts. And at the moment, they are remaining, by and large, within military courts. That was a big criticism at the time, I remember that being a question. I remember even putting that to the Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, who we did invite on to the programme. He wasn't able to make it this morning, but I hope to talk to him certainly this side of Christmas. Catherine is concerned that the people investigating complaints are still going to be drinking with those that they're accusing in the officers' mess. Are you saying that's not going to be the case after the 19th of November? That was a question that was asked of the MOD on Tuesday at a Defence Select Committee

inquiry. And after some hesitation, it was confirmed that that person would be removed pending investigation. So I'm hopeful that that person would be removed because what we had was, as indicated in your report, women having to then live work with the perpetrators of crime, which is totally unacceptable and, in this case, on a ship. So you can't get away from anything. So hopefully that will happen. It's my job now, back on the Defence Select Committee as a

former MOD minister to make sure that these things do happen. It is top down. It gets to the coal face and change actually happens. The fact that you're hopeful might not inspire hope, if you see what I mean, because I think, you you know we also invited anybody on from the armed forces this morning to specifically of course the Royal Navy we don't have anybody and I wonder with what you've just said and also your experience of of serving as well I mean it does this speak to the closed nature the difficult nature of trying to open up the military and do things differently because of how the military work? It's a glacial machine, the MOD, and this report that I shared, I think, rocked it to its core. I think that the fact that the service chiefs have accepted there is a problem and have made some pace towards improving that is a good indication.

I would like to see that pace quickened. When I was a minister for that short time, it was a priority of mine to make sure. And the first thing I did was have the three service chiefs around the table and say, this has to stop stop this will stop um but i noticed on the urgent question in parliament uh a week last monday on the behavior towards women in the royal navy um that language had shifted slightly had stretched to a five-year vision for delivery of outcomes and i just want to make sure that in my role now as a backbencher and on the defence select committee and as a veteran and as a serving woman that you know I'm going to use all my power to make sure that action positive action and outcomes do happen but I have to say the MOD

have gone great lengths so far we've got kits now that fits women's bodies we've got body armor we've got breastfeeding policies wraparound child care um career structures one of the tasks uh i undertook as a minister was to make sure that the legislative process was in place to change a court martial system so a woman now sits on every court martial board. So there has been changes made, either bigger changes are yet to be made. And we've got to make sure that there's positive outcomes at the end of it. Change is really happening and culture changes. And that's quite difficult to measure. It's not a simple blood test, but I need to make sure that that's happening.

And I will be holding the MoD to account on that. But from the backbenchers, briefly a minister under the very brief tenure of Liz Truss, but not kept on by Rishi Sunak. What does that say? Do you think? What message does that send? Well, it's the prime minister's prerogative to choose who he wants and who he thinks is best to do the job on the cabinet and his ministers. I thought I had some really reasonable good skills to do that job. But actually, I'm probably freer to do that job from the back benches than I was as a minister.

I know, but you must have been a bit miffed to not be kept on as a defence minister after writing the report that you just said rocked the MOD to the core and as a veteran. Well, yeah, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little disappointed. But I, you know, and I put my hands up to that and say, yes, I was quite sad when I was reshuffled out. But I can continue my good work from the back benches and the Defence Select Committee. And those who've been put in your place, do you have faith in them? Yes, yes. I think the minister was a naval surgeon and he has serving daughters, so I do have faith in them.

And it's a great ministerial team at the Ministry of Defence. And coming back to the Navy, do you have confidence in the first Sea Lord's investigation of the submarine service, which was specifically highlighted in some of these very recent reports in the Daily Mail? Yes, I do, because the first Sea Lord very much has adopted the language that I used when I met him. And that, you know, this has to stop. There's a red line, there's a zero tolerance, there's a presumption of discharge, regardless of rank and status. And I'm pleased to see that all the service chiefs are using that language.

We have an investigation going on at the moment with the Red Arrows. We are between systems at the moment. So we have the old system, which is still being used in part, and we're introducing the new system, which has come on the back of a number of reports, including the Defence Select Committees, protecting those who protect us. So what I want to see is that the new system is in place, and it's actually working on the ground and we need to give that time to bed in. But when I say time, I don't mean five years. Victims of abuse need to see results and they need to see results now.

What would you say to anyone who's listening to this whose daughter might be thinking of joining the Royal Navy or the armed forces? I'm especially aware that we're talking on the eve of Armistice Day when we commemorate and think about the service of our armed forces personnel. Or they themselves are thinking of joining or thinking about this as a career? The lady that we just heard the report from actually said

right at the very end, I served 20 years and I'm very proud of that and I'm very proud of that. And I'm very proud of my service in the military. And my inquiry highlighted that nine out of 10 women actually would recommend a career in the military. And we need to hold on to that because it is an excellent career and changes have happened. They may not help people in the past, but they will help the recruits of the future. And I would certainly be very happy for my daughter to be going into the military. Yeah, I mean, I just think it's also, as you know, it's not all in the past. That's the other issue. And, you know, you want things, as you talked about, being between systems to be better now.

But there will be concerns just still about culture. We've talked a lot about systems and how to police things when they have gone wrong. But, you know, the military, like the police, reflects society we're in as well. But the culture of how you all live together and how that all goes hand in hand. You know, just the detail from Catherine about her senior, you know, putting his penis on her shoulder while she's working. There are people who may still describe that. I'm not one of them as as I don't know, banter or jokes and not sexual assault. But that's the concern as well, that it's not all historical yeah so the last chief of defense staff referred to that as laddish behavior he's now left and the culture needs to leave with him

cultural change will not happen overnight um so you know i will expect to probably see more cases coming forward as women have a voice, as women feel more confident, as women know that this is now unacceptable. And I probably will expect cases to increase. That's a bad thing, but it's also a good thing because it does indicate that systems are changing. With regard to the service chiefs, we need to see deeds, not words. And banter, there is a zero tolerance towards banter at the moment. And that's because we discuss banter, because there's gallows humour, there's banter in the military, it can be quite a contentious issue, because banter is used as a coping mechanism in times of stress. Of course. But banter is clearly defined by the MOD now as anything that's language that's upsetting and discriminatory. So there's a zero tolerance to banter as well and apparently there's clear guidelines going out to...

So banter as defined in that way, not in other ways where you would talk about being able to have gallows humour, make jokes, cope together. Just not at the expense of someone else. Not at the expense of someone else. Sarah Atherton, MP there, trying to talk about what's changing, what needs to change and how things are at the moment. Let's hear from Lieutenant Colonel Diane Allen, who served for 37 years in the army before resigning last year. She joined me here on Women's Hour shortly after that resignation. She was calling for a Me Too moment across the British military.

She now runs a website called Forewarned, where she collates testimony from serving and former service personnel. Diane, good morning. Good morning, Emma. It's good to have you on the programme. And in light of what we've heard right at the beginning of the programme from Catherine, as we're calling her, we are getting a large response. What is your take? Yeah. And first of all, can I say thank you to Sarah and the House of Commons Defence Select Committee for all that they've been doing for us? It's been great. I perhaps can say that we're really sorry to see that Sarah has been sacked from her role.

And it does concern me. I think the House of Commons Defence Select Committee described it as not a good look for the MOD. And I feel the same. But I think in terms of listening to Catherine's story, sadly, it was all too familiar to what I've seen. And I just wrote a few notes from her testimony because I hadn't heard it before. And it's very moving because to hear these stories, I've heard over 200 of these stories. It's really quite difficult to hear. But the common themes in there that Catherine said, sexual favours to promote, to get through training courses, the constant need to prove yourself, the attempts by some men to try and force women off the ships on off bases is quite appalling. Coercion, to keep quiet, is an extremely common theme. And the other one that's really quite concerning is this medical

records being changed. And that's a really common theme and all information that we passed on to the Atherton report. The underlying theme is there's no way for serving persons, women as well, to turn to when it goes wrong. And I did want to just really emphasise that most men serving are excellent. Most men I serve with were excellent and I was really proud to serve. And I'd just like to get that across. But there's a really toxic pocket of men

and that culture is the one we're not dealing with. That's the one we need to be concerned about. And what do you say, as I read out from the Defence Secretary, the idea that the military has changed, is changing, and also the changes that are being made in light of Sarah Atherton's work will mean that those concerns about how to complain will not be there? Yeah, and again, time may tell on that, but I listened to the testimony given by the MAD on what they're going to do. And I think if they think that the zero tolerance policy alone is going to change the culture of the military, I'd use the word delusional, I'm afraid. And Sarah has taken the work further than I've ever seen the military move. So there are some shoots of optimism that actually they're taking this seriously for the first time. And I'm hopeful, like Sarah, that things might start to change.

But there's an awfully long way to go and there's a leadership issue still there. And I think Sarah mentioned General Sinek Carter, who took us way back in terms of describing laddish culture as acceptable. I think he did apologise for that in the end. He did afterwards, but I think a lot of military, and I know many, many military saw that as effectively an acceptance that laddish culture could continue. And of course, some people will define laddish culture, as Catherine described, as quite disgusting. And as the Navy submariners said about rape lists being written, you know, about serving work colleagues. So the RAF are also going through their own Me Too moment at the moment with the red arrows,

as Sarah mentioned. And there are a lot of issues that are current that have not gone away at the moment. I'm getting some messages from people while feeling extremely upset by what they've heard this morning, saying it's not been their experience as well, and that they haven't had that experience. They're not denying that that's happened, but they're at pains to make that point. There's a message that just came in which says, I'm a regular in the military and I overheard a group of Navy guys yesterday joking about rape loudly in the cafe in reference to a new e-learning initiative that's come about talking about unacceptable sexual behaviour.

I looked at the person talking and he carried on laughing and joking and i was sitting about two meters away and that's from uh yesterday in terms of culture so yeah you can make the changes to the system but but how do you think you make the change to the culture so to me that's leadership it absolutely is we have to um address the leadership concerns right from the top it's that top down uh that that uh effectively general senator carter set it up as a laddish culture we need to hear a clear message from the boss from admiral radikin that effectively this is not what is acceptable that we do require our individuals to be robust but laddish culture doesn't mean talking about writing rape lists i I will say again, we genuinely tried to have someone on specifically from the Royal Navy this morning, from the senior ranks, and there is no one that was made available.

It's extremely difficult. Part of the reason I resigned was so I could speak up. It's not possible to speak up in uniform. Do you have faith in the leadership? Because if that's what's needed, where are your levels at on that? So I have faith in a lot of colleagues who lead at the lower levels. But I think in terms of the higher leadership, I have a lack of faith. And that is because I don't think there is an understanding of what is happening on the ground. Is it okay to write policy? And the policy, as Sarah described, has moved on and is actually, on paper, looks quite good, but it doesn't get enacted on the ground

and that's the issue. So my faith in the leadership is perhaps not in understanding that writing policy doesn't fix a problem. Well, we'll stay with this story. Lieutenant Colonel Diane Allen, thank you to you for coming on this morning and sharing your reaction and also your latest take on what has been said on this. And I'll come back to your messages if I can, but some very powerful ones coming in at the moment and a lot of you also choosing not to share your real name. But to a different story, because it has caused a major splash, many people, many women in particular, are sharing it. Overnight and this morning,

you may have seen a set of striking photos of the actor Jennifer Aniston in a tiny Chanel bra for a Lior's Magazine December issue. She's on the cover. The bra is truly tiny. The photos are truly amazing. But it's what she has to say

which has attracted so much attention. The headline? I don't have anything to hide at this point. Bit of a pun perhaps on also what she's not wearing. But at 53, Jennifer Aniston has opened up for the first time about spending years, as she puts it, throwing everything at trying to have a baby through IVF. Something certain parts of the media were obsessed with. Sort of Gen Bump Watch, if you remember any of that. Of it, she says, all the years and years of speculation, it was really hard. I was going

through IVF, drinking Chinese teas, you name it, I was throwing everything at it. I would have given anything if someone said to me, freeze your eggs, do yourself a favour. You just don't think it. So here I am today, the ship has sailed. There are many stories of eventual happy endings for those on the infertility road. But what happens to those who, despite all the trying, for things do not work out? And how do you build your life without children when you really wanted them? Joining me now is someone with her own experience of this, Caroline Stafford, a baker who goes as Kitch Hen. She makes biscuits with heartfelt messages for all occasions, including, which is how I first met her, supportive messages for those undergoing IVF.

In fact, we first met properly when she texted into my former programme on BBC Five Live. She didn't realise I was the same Emma ordering these IVF supportive biscuits for women I knew going through this. I caught up with her just before coming on air this morning and I started by asking her for her reaction to what Jennifer Aniston had said. I think reading the article and reading her words yesterday had a huge impact because there has been speculation so much, hasn't there, over such a long time. And for her reasons, which absolutely make sense, she chose to keep her privacy around it. And I think now kind of her opening up is such a super important example to people, not least because I think she's a real shining light of how I think she's 53 now isn't she and yes she's talking now about you know how hard her 30s and 40s were and what she went through with her infertility journey and yet here she is feeling brilliant looking amazing and just

that beautiful evidence that going through all that doesn't have to mean the end of a good life you know she's moved on to such a place of acceptance I guess and she is a really it's a beautiful example of life still having that meaning and that purpose and that real joy um when things don't work out as you anticipate they would and and there's a beautiful phrase in there where she talks about coming out on the other side as a little mosaic gets blown apart and somehow gets put back together into this beautiful mosaic. I mean, what do you make of that? I absolutely love that because I think I often talk about how it's the things that kind of break us that make us we put ourselves back together a little bit differently and I think it's all those pieces that are created when when we break when we go through the hardest things are the parts that really put us back together as who we really are I think it was a really beautiful way that she

spoke about piecing herself back together from all those broken parts that have created this beautiful whole of who she is now. And I think that's the story for all of us. I think we often think of things as being our failures. And it's only in retrospect, perhaps we can look back and see that they were always part of who we were supposed to be. But she's also very honest about how hard she tried and how hard that was. She talked about going through IVF, drinking Chinese teas, throwing everything at it and that it was terrible. And it took a long part of her life. And you spent, I understand, 10 years trying and having IVF, but also trying naturally for a baby.

Yeah, we did. And I can absolutely empathise that it completely consumes your life. As much as you try to live through it, and you know as well as I do, that we do our best to live through it. And I think that's really important that we can have a life alongside it. But it can't not completely take over. It's the hardest thing to go through. When we've been going through it, I've always been quite open and wanted to talk about it. And I think perhaps going through it in the public eye, it must have been a whole other level of complications. The weight of carrying that without having somebody to share it with must be so immense.

It must have been such a tough time. Let's come to relationships in just a moment, but I'm very struck by, you know, you and I have actually spoken and met because we've talked about infertility online and you have shared what you've been through. And we spoke about the fact that a lot of people don't share it while it's going wrong, that you only hear stories when it's happened or when you've managed to get pregnant or have a baby.

But one of the most striking things about your story, Caroline, for our listeners who might be able to relate or know someone who's in this position, is you always say that there is just very little for you to hear or read about, knowing when to stop trying because you can keep on going. Absolutely. I think this is one of the biggest things for me and one of the reasons that I feel so passionately about talking about our stories, because I absolutely feel that there aren't enough stories of what happens when it doesn't work and how you come to that point of deciding not to keep going. And it was one of the things when I have spoken about it,

I've had so many people getting in touch saying that they are at a similar position and not feeling able to make that decision because there is always something else you can do there is always science is new there's just always that last one more chance there's always that one more chance and I think it's incredibly difficult we all have our different limits we all have a different point where it's right for us to stop but knowing that and accepting that and making that decision I think is one of the hardest things to do because we do just tend to hear the success stories eventually and quite often it's that last try which is what I wanted to come to with you, because I know you shared this publicly. You had four rounds of IVF. You were able to get pregnant from one of them, which sadly you weren't able to keep.

No, no, we had a miscarriage. We had an early scan and there was a heartbeat. And then we went back for a second scan and there was no heartbeat. I'm very, very sorry. I'm very sorry about that I must I must say that but I also know because this is relating to what you just said that after you finished IVF or certainly took a break or took a moment from it it was actually a year later that you you got pregnant naturally. Yeah so we've never ever had a natural pregnancy. And we'd kind of got to the point where we were having IVF cycles over in Athens in Greece. And we decided to have a break. We didn't, we hadn't decided to stop, we decided to have a break. And then I discovered I was pregnant

in early December. And it was the craziest time because it never happened. Actually, we were absolutely the impression that it just it just wouldn't. And then we just began to kind of allow ourselves to ever so slightly believe that maybe this was the miracle you hear about. You stop trying and then it happens. And then on Christmas morning, my husband had gone to work. He's a dairy farmer. So he was up at the crack of dawn milking his cows. And I had a miscarriage on Christmas morning 2019 and it was just it just felt like the cruelest thing that could have happened um after everything we've been through

and then that tiny little glimmer of hope and then for that to happen on Christmas morning was I think we both at that point just quietly we spoke about it later but I think that was the point where sort of independently we both knew enough was enough I suppose and it was just going to be too too much to carry on I think. Thank you for being able to say that and again I must say how very very sorry I am for both of you and for that loss, for that experience, for that place that it took you to. But I also think, which is to your point of why you've spoken, why you think it's important to hear people like Jennifer Aniston, who obviously have a huge platform, talk about stopping is because that's also a really big deal to make that decision, not live in the limbo, not live in the trying. It's huge. It's huge because it's kind of that decision to draw the line

is a real letting go. It has to be a real letting go of everything that you thought your life was going to look like. But at the same time, there is almost like a feeling of it's not relief it's that ability to just really gently start moving forward and I talk a lot about how it's never making a decision drawing a line and off you go and it's one of the hardest things I think and I've found and I know I will always find is that it will always really hurt and it will always there will always be moments when it blindsides me and it's sad that that's just you know that's

life it will never be okay but I really believe and I can sort of say this I guess with reflection of a couple of years down the line that there will always be that space, but it won't, it doesn't always feel like a huge gaping wound. Life sort of grows around it. And I love that. Rather than having to kind of look for the silver linings now and kind of really seek them out, I feel that we can really appreciate the good things about it just being the two of us and our two dogs and the joy and the freedom that we have from that.

Caroline Stafford there, thank you very to her for for talking this morning and thank you to you for many of your messages and just to go back we did have this email and we were talking about throughout the program about the Royal Navy from a female serving officer in the Navy in the surface fleet who says I 100% believe everything your guests today and other women from the submarine service are saying but it is not the whole navy when i joined 20 years ago there were things i overlooked that would not be tolerated now in many ways we have fewer issues with sexism than some other areas i've never been treated any differently for being a woman i've never been

sexually assaulted in the royal navy i have outside of it and neither have any of my close female colleagues that i am aware of i genuinely believe that the Royal Navy is a great organisation to work in and would recommend it to any young woman. And it infuriates me that in some areas, we have allowed weak leaders to be promoted that have either perpetrated or condoned these behaviours. Thank you so much for your company today and for your comments. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Can you remember the worst day of your life? How would you feel if someone told you that day never happened? That you were being paid to make it up?

For people who've lived through terrible disasters, this is a shockingly common experience. I'm Marianna Spring, the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent. In the BBC Radio 4 podcast Disaster Trolls, I investigate how people caught up in the Manchester Arena bombing and other UK terror attacks To hear the podcast now, subscribe to Disaster Trolls on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.