Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour celebrates 80 years from the Glasgow Women's Library

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Launching the theme of our 80th birthday year: "Use Your Voice", we celebrate live from the Glasgow Women's Library in Scotland, the sole accredited museum of women’s history in the UK.Nuala McGovern is joined by guests: Women's Health Champion for Scotland Dr Anna Glasier, social media influencer and campaigner Fats Timbo, professor of private law Jane Mair and poet and writer and former Makar, Jackie Kay.We hear from some of the Woman's Hour archive including suffragette Mary Richardson from 1957, a woman on breast cancer from 1969, a woman called Candida talking about coming out in the mid 1980s, Margaret Thatcher talking about childcare in 1990, Tracey Emin's reflections on her abortion from 2011 and Rose McGowan talking in 2018 about reigniting the #metoo movement. Our guests reflect on archive from Nancy Astor on being the first female MP in the House of Commons, on a woman talking about the progression of family planning and reactions to the conviction of Sarah Everard's murderer. To mark our 80th birthday we commissioned a poll to ask a nationally representative sample of 2,000 women how they feel about using their voices for themselves – how able do they feel to ask for what they want? Where in life do they feel most able to speak out, and what is most likely to stop them? Nuala talks to Anita Rani who is in the studio in London to find out more.Hollie McNish is the author of five collections of poetry. She was the first poet to record at Abbey Road Studios, in London, and won the 'Ted Hughes Award for New Work in Poetry'. To celebrate our 80th birthday we asked Hollie to write us a birthday poem, and she performs it live on the programme.Then we hear from our listeners - we recently asked you if something you'd heard on the programme over the years had inspired you to use your voice. We hear from listeners Rachel, Barbara, Veronica and Angela. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Corinna Jones

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you here with us to celebrate the 80th anniversary of Women's Hour. We are live from the Glasgow Women's Library in Scotland, the sole accredited museum of women's history in the UK and we have a live audience. Now during this hour we are going to delve into our illustrious archives to reflect on eight decades of women telling their stories and sharing their lives. The theme for our anniversary is use your voice. So to that end, we will be revealing the results of our exclusive poll. It investigates women's ability in 2026 to speak up for themselves and ask for what they want or not. We also have a birthday gift to share with you, a specially commissioned poem for Women's Hour from the poet, writer and performer Holly McNish. Now if you're listening at home

there are lots of ways to get in touch you can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 0-3700-100-400-44 and let's not forget about smart speakers you can also say on most of them Alexa ask BBC sounds to send a comment But let me introduce my guests who are going to be with us for the next hour, along with our live audience. We have Dr Anna Glazier, OBE, who has used her voice to advance women's health as the first women's health champion for Scotland. We have Fats Timbo, who has carved out a space online to use her voice. She has several million followers on her social

media platforms, which she uses to create awareness about her life as a little person. She was born with Acondro Plasia. Jane Maher is a professor of private private law at the University of Glasgow specialising in employment and family law. And we also have Jackie Kaye, one of the best known and most popular Scottish literary figures. She's a poet and novelist. She served as the Macer, that is Scotland's national poet for five years and was also made a CBE for services to literature in 2020. Her latest book is selected poems. 1991 to 2026, quite long, not as long as 80 years just yet. Jackie, good to have you with us too.

Let us give my lovely audience members a round of a place. So we are in the Glasgow Women's Library. It is an Edwardian Baroque building. I would say grand and theatrical. I'm looking out through high arched windows, walking through the library, which has such an array of books, of women's stories and stories that women have authored.

And I went by an umbrella stand. I was like, it's an interesting artefact. And it was made by suffragettes when they were in prison, actually found in a bin when the prison was about to be demolished. So that's to give you a sense of where we are. But this library records, collects, and shares women's voices and oral histories. And it's something that we at Women's Hour

also have been passionate about for 80 years. The library is celebrating their 35th birthday, and they do have a new exhibition opening on Friday to celebrate. That will continue until the end of January. Jackie, I mean, this is the place to ask the question. Why do you think it's important to record women's stories? I think it's important that we never forget our histories and we often don't realise just exactly what we've done.

We're often the last people to kind of pat ourselves in the back. So actually having a collective way of archiving our histories, remembering our histories and passing down stories is really important. It's really wonderful to be in the Glasgow Women's Library because this is the place that remembers people's histories and it involves a huge, as a huge volunteers, amount of volunteers and it involves people from all over, all over Glasgow and from all different backgrounds.

And so we get stories really from all over the world right here in Glasgow. It is a very welcoming spot from the minute you come in, it's like a warmth and a calm, and it reminded me a little bit off when I first walked through the studio doors into Woman's Hour as well. And to that point, we have been delving into our extensive archive. What an archive. Having recorded so many voices of women and some men, here are a few highlights of women who have spoken out to get your ears ready. From 1969, a woman talking about her breast cancer treatment, a woman called Candida talking

about coming out as a lesbian in the mid-80s. Margaret Thatcher talking about child, childcare in 1990, the artist Tracy Emmons, reflections on her abortion from 2011, and Rose McGowan, the actor in 2018 about reigniting the Me Too movement. But we begin in 1957 when suffragette, Mary Richardson, recall the day that she was distributing protest leaflets at the Epsom Derby, and when Emily Davidson famously threw herself under the king's horse. Emily rolled over twice, people rushed onto the coast and molested her. One of the first to arrive tore open her jacket. There was a purple, white and green emblem of our militant movement.

Then a man standing near me struck me. I dropped my bag and papers to force my way through the excited crowd to the entrance. I was just in time to cross the road in front of the horses of the king's carriage. It was this that saved me. The crowd tried to pursue me, but it was held. I held at bay, and as I was a swift runner, I managed to reach the Down station, where a kind reporter locked me into the laboratory, persuaded the angry crowds that I had just left on the train for Waterloo.

The meantime, Emily was carried from the course, Down's cottage hospital, where, as is common knowledge, a mob tried to force their way to lynch her. She never regained consciousness. She died at dawn a couple of days later. If you met me in the street or at a party, you'd never guess that half my bust is national health. Tucked into the left cup of my bra, I wear a shapely plastic bosom. It's so comfortable that I forget I'm wearing it, and so much like the real thing that it's even slightly pneumatic.

It's five years now, since I stood in my doctor's surgery stripped to the waist. When he'd examined me, he told me that I must go to the hospital. So I went out into the street. What now? Phone my husband, buy a bottle of service. Scotch, make my will, somehow I must find courage, and I had none. Twenty years ago, I couldn't have come out of the closet to save my life, whereas now virtually everyone I know knows about me. I haven't got any problem, of course, of child custody, and I do

think that the reason that lesbian women find it difficult to come out of the closet is for purely practical reasons. If they have children, it's awful. I mean, if, if, you're their marriage breaks up, the husband can almost invariably get custody on the grounds that his wife is a lesbian and therefore not fit to look after her own child. I am not trying to persuade anyone to do anything against their own better judgment, because let me say this at the outset. It's difficult to go out to work as well as running a family unless you have your husband absolutely with you and less between you with the money you're earning, you can pay for competent. help or unless you have grandma, auntie, around the corner. First of all, no woman wants to have an abortion. You have a choice. You have a few weeks and you have a choice.

And if you're pregnant with someone who doesn't love you, then you, you know, and say, and that person says, you're not having this baby. I don't want to be associated with you for the rest of my life. How do you feel about that? I was blacklisted, you see. I was very much scorned within the industry because he set it up. people that were his victims were not believed. He did a lot of pre-work just in case the allegations ever came out

that he could paint the accuser as crazy or unstable or just somebody not to listen to ever under any circumstances. And everybody, you know, most people in Hollywood, it was a very open secret. But everybody just thought, ha, ha, ha, that's just the way it is. And I just thought, no, it's actually not the way it is. Ending there with Rose McGowan talking about her treatment by Harvey Weinstein. What a selection of amazing women that women's hours had the privilege to bring you over the past 80 years.

Women who found and used their voice. Jackie Kay, back to you. When did you find yours? I think probably when I was really quite young, I started writing when I was 12. And I found that inside more imagination, I was really quite strong. I got bullied at school and called all sorts of different names. And so I just, you know, go home. create a wee sanctuary and write a revenge poem.

And it was quite a good thing to do. And I used to write about all sorts of things that upset me at the time, you know, apartheid, poverty. I'd write about kind of big, big issues outside of myself. And I think I was adopted and so I always had this imaginary other because my mum would always try and help me imagine these birth parents of mine. And so I found that my own story came already with a kind of ready built imagination. I was about to say imagination was the word that was coming to me there as you spoke.

Fats, that's Timbo. Let me bring you in here. Why did you decide to use your voice on social media, which obviously has gone so far and wide? I decided to use my voice because I felt like there was no voice for me. So the best thing I could do was create a voice for myself for others to use, especially marginalised communities, like disabled women, black women. And I did that through modelling, and I did it by accident because a friend told me that

she thought I look cute in this picture and I was like, do you think so? And I was like, okay, I'll post it. And it went super viral out of nowhere. And then all of a sudden I thought, okay, well, now I've got an audience to appease, Let's keep doing this. So you tapped into a hunger that was there

that hadn't been fed previously? Exactly, exactly. And whenever I rarely ever saw somebody that looked like me, it was Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, umpahumpers. And whenever I saw positive people that looked like me, it was very rare. So I wanted to create a space where people, that had my condition felt like, okay, there's someone that is just living her life, she's

educated, she's doing her thing and so can I. And it's very rewarding when parents message me saying, oh my god, my daughter has acontraplasia and you give me hope and things like that. So that's why I've created my voice. That's very moving to think about that. Thanks for that. I do want to bring another archive clip and this is from one of the first women to use her voice in a position of power. Nancy Astor was the first female member of Parliament to take a seat in the House of Commons. She served from 1990 to 1945. She was interviewed on Woman's Hour in 1956 about her time in office. Here she is speaking to the presenter Mary Stocks. I didn't mind the

election at all because I like that. But to walk up the House of the Commons between Arthur Balfour and Lloyd George, both of them who had said They believed in women, but who would rather have had a rattlesnake than have in the house than me at that time. They all felt that way. It was really very alarming. And you know sometimes I would sit five hours in that house rather than get out of my seat and walk down. But I knew what really kept me going. I was an ardent feminist.

I always knew women had more. Well, shall I say moral strength? I must say, I did say once in the House of Commons, we've got moral. strength and you've got immoral strength. But that to the gentleman, but that was rude. I said a lot of rude things I'm frightened. But I really, it was alarming. And yet, I might say this, it was amazing how well the men treated me, considering how few of them wanted me. And I kept out of the way, remember that. I never went into any room, writing room, library. I never went anywhere. Once I got out of the house, I'd go down to a little room I had myself. And you asked me

why I stayed, why I had courage. Well, it was because I told someone, someone said, something that I was rather rude. And I said, but you don't know what I've got behind me. I've got the women. And someday you'll hear from them. And so they did, didn't they? Yes, they did. Never went to the library. Did you hear that line there when she was in the House of Commons? Fats, where did you get the confidence though? I know you told us that story about posting that photograph, but that takes huge gumption. It does.

And I think what people misunderstand about confidence is that people think you have to wait for it to happen to you. It suddenly comes out of nowhere. No, confidence has to take action. It could be through tiny habits of, you know, usually you'd look down, but maybe look at people's faces now and then and smile. Or taking that big leap of faith, taking that managerial role or something, or doing a crazy excursion or something.

It takes action to be able to reach some sort of confidence that you want to aspire to get. It may be uncomfortable to do that. Yes, very, very thin. what I'm hearing. What about you, Jackie? What about you the first time you spoke out in public? I think it felt really scary as well as as exciting. So one of the things that's changed is once you're actually in the moment of doing something, some of your fears just go because you realize that you must speak out and that you almost have a kind of a duty to speak out about things that matter to you. So I remember one time having

been attacked at Sterling University by a bunch of fascists that put up posters, with my name on them and they were razor blaze behind the posters so as empty tried to pull them down we'd get their hands ripped. I decided to kind of hold a public meeting and I was 17 to speak out rather than you know I was offered police protection and all of these things but I thought that actually speaking out would be better for me and although it was scary it was the thing that I did and I felt huge you know much better for it and about 250 people came it's like yay so it was really and so you were on your path and I know coming from a political household as well but Fats what about you I mean

you're online as we mentioned and we all know with that will come criticism trolling for example what does it cost you as you see it to speak out as an individual it costs a lot of heartache pain criticism ridicule as well the best way to describe how it feels to be someone like me. It's like wearing a funny costume 24-7. That's how it feels sometimes. And I think having the experience of people always looking at you, but being bullied in school, the worst thing that happened to me was being put in an industrial bin

and being trapped in school. So going through something like that and then going on social media and people saying things you've already heard before was like a piece of cake, to be honest. So, but obviously to the average person, it's going to hurt them. It's going to hurt their feelings. But you have to understand in order to get to that goal of success, people are going to hate along the way because they can never achieve what you want to achieve.

So there's going to be people that are going to be trying to sabotage that. And you have to understand that. It's so interesting to me, and I'm sure to our listeners as well, hearing Jackie, hearing fats, different scenarios, but basically going through that same experience as they raised their voice and brought attention to issues that they cared about. I want to move on to some other issues as well as we think about the past 80 years. A key moment was for women the availability of the contraceptive pill on the NHS in 1961 and other forms of contraception were also becoming more commonplace. I want to bring you a clip. This is from 1970.

illustrating how welcome family planning was for some. Well, I married 10 years. I got seven children. What ages are they? The eldest one is nine and a half, and the baby is three and a half. So you've been having a baby every year up to a few years ago? Yeah, 11 months between some of them. How did you feel about this? Well, I didn't mind something, you know, when I was pregnant for a few months,

but, you know, I was getting a bit on top of me. My nerves were getting a bit better with him, you know. My husband was an age most of the time. Did your doctor or anyone else ever talked to you about family planning? Well, he did, but we sort of never thought much about it because he wanted me to have, you know, sterilisation. My husband was against it. Did you ever think about going to a clinic?

No, I never had time. Now, I know a doctor from the sort of domiciliary service came here to the house to you. I mean, what did she say to you? Well, she, first of all, she wanted me to have the operation and, you know, sort of, me and me going into hospital for 10 days. maybe fortnight, you know, and we didn't want to be the kids in care. So didn't she suggested that having the coil fitted?

She told me it was just a little piece of wire, looked like a piece of wire, you know, that I got at the clinic and get her fitted, and then that was all. She made arrangements for someone to call and take me there, you see. And my sister looked after the children from her for that day, you know. And how long did it take to have this fitted? Oh, about five minutes, I should imagine. And how did you feel after it?

Fit in marvelous. I never even thought about being there, you know. I think it's marvellous. I wish I'd do it years ago. Marvelous. So says that particular woman. Let me bring in the women's health champion for Scotland. That's Dr Anna Glazier.

You're very welcome to the programme. What's your experience of women speaking up about their health matters? And really interesting when we listen back, isn't it? It is. And women speaking about health matters have a powerful voice. one of the things that we're trying to tackle with the women's health plan in Scotland is women's reluctance to speak out. When they go to see their GP, they're often, they themselves are somewhat dismissive of their problems. I'm sorry to bother you, doctor. Maybe it's not something terribly important.

And as a result, a lot of women are complaining that they're not being heard, that their complaints are being belittled or dismissed. So it's a rather difficult problem for us and we're not sure how to tackle it. Yes, I mean it's definitely any of the issues that we have covered, particularly like maturity reviews, etc. It's about not being listened to is what I have heard again and again on Women's Hour. And it's quite interesting that there is this trajectory over the history. With this particular point, Anna, like in the eight decades since Women's Hour began, we have seen huge developments in contraception, changing lives for women, the pill, as I mentioned, 1961 is when it came in with the NHS. The coil had been available earlier.

This is your area of expertise. How much of a difference have you seen or heard that it made to women's lives? I think it's made a huge difference to women's lives. I mean, people often talk about the pill as being a milestone for the emancipation of women. And it was Sardougald-Baird, working in Aberdeen, an obstetrician and gynecologist who coined the phrase, the fifth freedom, so we're all familiar with the four freedoms of Roosevelt, but his fifth freedom was the freedom for women from the tyranny of excessive childbearing and the availability of choice for women like Tracy Eamond said not to have children if they didn't want them. It's interesting that in fact things are inevitably going a little bit in the other direction now

and a lot of women, particularly young women, are turning against the oral contraceptive pill because they don't like hormones and they're using telephone apps to help them decide when it's safe to have sex. It's not very effective. It's the rhythm method of family planning and if I'd suggested to somebody 20 years ago they should be using the rhythm method. I think I would have been laughed out of the clinic. Which is fascinating when we put it in full context as well in the way that you describe of this woman really overjoyed, I suppose, to discover contraception and what you're seeing at the moment. There have been a number of milestones. We're talking about the pill there, for example, but what else should we remember when it comes to

milestones regarding changes for women's health? So the pill, as he say, was approved in 61, but only for married women. For unmarried women, it was approved in 67, and 67 was a great year for women because that was also the Abortion Act legalising abortion. I guess other milestones, one would be assisted conception and the birth of Louise Brown in 1978. And for me personally, an important milestone is the availability of emergency contraception from a pharmacy, although we're still fighting, to get it made available as a general sayance license so you can just buy it from a supermarket. I think those are the big milestones for women's reproductive health. Yes, and of course when it comes to the abortion act, for example, there was debate then,

there is debate now as well, and of course, it's a contentious issue and many varying opinions when it comes to it. So really interesting Anna, you're staying with us. We'll talk a little bit more about your voice and speaking out. But I also want to talk about an area that Woman's Hour has delved into many times and that is areas of equality such as equal pay also of course violence against women and girls is sadly a recurring theme and we can all remember i'm sure the terrible events of 2021 when Sarah Everard was abducted raped and murdered by a serving police officer that was a time when many women wanted to speak out this was journalist cat brown reflecting after the sentencing of Sarah's killer I just

feel so sad. I feel completely devastated, frankly. I remember when my mother's elder sister died, rather than my mum being upset for her and how she felt, she was completely devastated for my grandmother because as my mum said, no parent should ever have to bury their child. and that has happened so many times over the past year and to see the dignity and the bravery and the courage of Mr and Mrs Everard reading out their victim impact statements yesterday and making that man look at them and he couldn't even look at them.

I think that was truly extraordinary. Such a sobering clip there. I want to bring in Professor Jane Meyer, who is from the School of Law at the University of Glasgow, specialising in employment and family law. There is another aspect, Jane, that I'd like to turn to with you when we talk about violence against women and girls, and that is domestic abuse.

What significant legal changes have you seen in this area? I mean, I think there have been huge changes in this area across the UK and particularly in Scotland, which is the area that I'm most familiar with. I remember when I was studying law in the 1980s, at that time, women's aid, Scottish women's aid, really just beginning to establish themselves. And in 1981, the Matrimonial Homes Act was introduced in Scotland. And this was absolutely huge in legal terms, because this for the first time was giving a woman

who did not have a property right in the home in which she lived, the possibility that she could actually exclude her male partner who owned the property and that was absolutely huge because in legal terms property property is king the right of ownership it was really unassailable so that that was a massive development and i would say that was a real the starting point in terms of the legal protection against domestic abuse so that that was one it was absolutely huge at the time it was thought to be you know radical revolutionary massively controversial for those who didn't agree. But then what I found really interesting was that for about 20 years, almost nothing was heard. You wonder sometimes why something catches fire and then is extinguished or at least only little embers.

I mean, I think partly because at that time the focus was all on changing the law. And that is, I think, a challenge that quite often the focus and the focus of voices can be on getting the change in the first place. about thinking about, well, actually how is it going to be implemented? What happens? So to give a woman the right to exclude her husband from the home is one thing, for her to actually carry it out? Carry it out. That's something completely different. Another term that we hear quite a lot now, but our mothers or grandmothers probably wouldn't have heard, is coercive control. Yeah, I mean, I think that's another huge development, and we're still in the process of that. I think there was that early development in terms of the home, but then we switched to criminal law.

And understanding and approaches to domestic abuse has developed hugely in terms of criminal law. And coercive control, I think, is just the latest. We went from the 1970s when we talked about battered wife syndrome to where we are now, when we're talking about coercive control. It's a much more nuanced understanding of how people are controlled and abused. It's also moving it just with that language that you say, Jane, from the woman to the man, in the sense of the action or the person who is considered, if I say, at fault. You'll understand what I mean because it's taken so long for domestic abuse to get the prominence that it deserves.

But I want to move on to something else, the workplace briefly. Equal pay, how are we doing? I'm not sure we're doing that well. I mean, certainly in Glasgow in recent days, it's all over the news yet again. I mean, just one example. So we've had equal pay since 1970, in force since 1975. Where are we? Well, in 2006, there were massive number of claims against Glasgow City Council

from lots and lots of individual women, dinner, ladies, cleaners, hundreds, thousands of these claims. And here we are in 2026, and we're still hearing in the news about how is the council actually going to pay these women who since 2006, we've known, and probably knew long before that. So I'm not sure we're doing that well.

There's a huge amount about it. It takes up a great deal of time. We hear lots of voices, but what's actually happening? And I keep coming back to people say, what's the latest equal pay gap? I'm never very sure, but I always kind of hedge a bet and say it's about 18%. And it feels to me it's been about 18%

for a long time. Yeah, indeed. I'm not sure we're doing all that well. Interesting. I want to let people know, perhaps if they're just tuning in, that you're listening to Women's Hour. As we celebrate 80 years of being on air, we are live from the Glasgow Women's Library as we talk about some of the women who have used their voices on the airways over the years. An amazing archive if you head to the Women's Hour website. And you can't get in touch with today in all the usual ways. Mary got in touch. She says, I remember sitting on the kitchen floor on the blue lino, aged almost five, listening to the first. edition of Woman's Hour with my mother. Well, I'm delighted you're still listening in. Sophie from Norwich,

I'm 34 now. I've been listening for about 15 years. I feel Women's Hour has had a very formative role in my life. I love the feeling of shared experience that it brings. I feel held and empowered by it. And they thank us. Well, thank you, Sophie, also for listening. Growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth, and not enough time. helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing, or service, O-Doo gives you one place to manage

your business. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's O'D-O-O-O-com. An observatory in space. This is the real deal. This is going to revolutionize astronomy. of capturing light from the dawn of the universe. It could be real exciting for the astronomical community, I guess, and for the whole world to see what Hubble really can do. From the BBC World Service, 13 minutes, trouble with Hubble, the story of the Hubble Space Telescape. Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app,

or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. Now, we have been hearing, how women are using their voice to advocate for others, but how able are they to use their voice for themselves? It's a question we wanted to tackle. So, we commissioned a poll to find out. We asked a nationally representative sample of 2,000 women about their ability to ask for what they want.

Where in life do they feel most able to speak out and where do they feel least heard? And what is most likely to stop them from speaking up. Well, I'm delighted. Anita Rani joins me from London where she has been sifting through the results. Good to have you with us, Anita. What have you found? So much. First of all, I'm really enjoying the conversation that you're having there and the particularly the archive that we've been listening to this morning. But yes, we've found quite a lot out in our poll. And one thing that stands out from the survey is, guess what? Women are still not prioritising themselves.

One of the questions asked was, thinking about the decisions you make day to day, how often do you put the needs of others before your own? Over nine in ten women report putting others' needs before their own at least sometimes, including nearly two-thirds who say they do this often or always. And 62% of the women surveyed agreed with the statement, I find it easier to speak up for others than myself. Now, it's not necessarily a bad thing to put others before yourself. Some might argue it's what society needs more of. But I'm interested to consider the cost on an individual here. And where that instinct comes from, is it a consequence of taking on caring roles?

Is there something biological? After all, mothers need to protect babies? Or is it centuries of conditioning, a learned behaviour to put yourself last? And it's made me think about self-care and what a radical and political act that can still be for women, particularly marginalised women, holding it altogether without the systems of support that they need.

So so much that has been revealed, Nula, from this poll. I mean, the figures are so high, Anita, aren't they? Do you think that putting yourself first and not just letting the need of others dictate decisions, whether that's something that women need to learn to do? Well, I think it's one area in which very little seems to have changed. In fact, the first item in the first ever script of Woman's Hour was on this very subject. It went out, as we know, on the 7th of October, 1946.

And the item was called Mother's Midday Meal. And the speaker, Mary Manton, was begging women to make sure that the one meal they prepared in the day that was just for themselves was actually nutritious and good for them. Basically, she wanted them to put their own needs first for once. And it ends with her describing what she would say to her own mother. And actually I'm going to read it because I've got the script in front of me, if I may. She says, I remember in the old days at home when we were all out at business, I used to be so concerned because my mother had a little way of dining off bread and butter and a pot of tea. I used to put her through the third degree every evening about that midday meal.

I often think now of the things I used to say to her about the stupidity of mothers not looking after themselves. But I found we're very much the same generation after generation, aren't we? You know what, Nula, she's not wrong, because according to our poll, nothing has changed. Oh, my goodness. Okay, women, you've got to have a nice meal for yourself when you finish listening to Women's Hour this morning. Anita, we'll be delving into these findings and in more detail in upcoming programs. But has this particular finding surprised you, given how many women we're speaking to week in, week out, as presenters of women's hour.

No,ah, sadly not. I mean, Women's Hour, the reason we exist and we have existed for the last 80 years is to give women a voice, and we know the importance of the conversations we have for women to be able to air how they feel. But I don't even have to go beyond my own family. Still to this day, my mum will eat

after she's fed everybody else. But she would say that's her love language. She's a feeder. I have one of those myself. Really interesting to see some of those figures and do join Anita of course in tomorrow as well she'll have a special programme as we talk about some of the findings of this poll that we are getting into I want to go to our panel that are here for a moment Jane in your experience of legal situations some of the poll findings there

do they resonate with what you've seen and heard when it comes to women advocating for themselves I think they do and I think it was really interesting and listening to that because the whole thing about legal rights and so much of the focus of change for women going right back to the suffragettes was about getting rights but of course we've all got rights and so as soon as everybody's got rights you have relationships and you have conflicts of rights

and so it then becomes that creates its own problems and I think we see that a lot with women I mean they might be part of the policy change but when it comes to actually trying to enforce their rights it's difficult and you're thinking about women and children in my area of family law you see that a lot you know the women speaking up perhaps in a in a case in court you know she's got that balance she's got to

kind of try and put forward her own position but that might not go down very well it might go down better if she's coming across as more concerned for her children so I think these kind of balances are there all the time and I think it's important that we don't lose sight of the good things about thinking of others. Because that's a real strength. We have to not just all become selfish. But how do we do that in a balanced way? Yes, it's a very good question. And of course, a more caring society would be a better society for all to live in. But I was struck in our poll how many women agreed with the statement,

I never want to seem demanding or difficult by voicing what I truly want. So Anna, back to you. We talked about how women say they aren't listened to. Why do you think women find it so hard to demand help or answers for themselves? I think probably for the reasons that we've been discussing and it's just a habit which has grown over the years. We are doing some work with carers Scotland and we know that women who are caring for people, particularly for example partners with dementia or elderly parents are less likely to turn up for cervical screening or breast screening than women who aren't caring for people because they put the people that they're caring for first and they just don't have the time to go and get screened so the problem just continues okay maybe we can all make a pact to ourselves that we

will speak up a little bit more in those medical settings let me turn back to Anita because you are there's so much in this poll as you mentioned what will you be discussing in tomorrow's program Yeah, one of the questions we asked that really stood out was how many times, if any, have you felt unable to say no in a sexual encounter? I'll let that sit with everyone listening for a moment. The results found that more than one in three of all women surveyed said this had happened to them. And over a quarter of all the women polled said it's happened more than once. So in tomorrow's program, we're going to be picking up this conversation. I want to discuss what's going on and hear about your own experiences of consent.

Why so many women seem unable to find their voice in these important moments? What are the barriers and what can we do about it? Perhaps you've been in that moment and struggled to find the words, what would have helped? What do you wish you'd have known then that you know now? Get in touch in the usual way and you can remain anonymous. It's going to be fascinating. Anita, thank you so much for joining us from London.

We're in Glasgow. And our listeners will be with you tomorrow as will I. That's Anita at 10 as we continue to delve into some of the findings. Let me turn to Holly McNish, who is with us. She's the author of five collections of poetry. She was the first poet to record at Abbey Road Studio in London and won the Ted Hughes Award for New Work in Poetry. So we didn't just commission a poll.

To celebrate our 80th birthday, we also commissioned Holly to write us a birthday poem. and we are thrilled that she is here in the Women's Library in Glasgow to perform with Holly. Go ahead. She's just standing up at her microphone in front of a live audience and I'll pass it over to you. Thanks a lot. So this is 80 years of Women's Hour. For 80 years in kitchens and in living rooms, in offices, then cars, then in headphones, we have listened as women talk to women. It might seem simple now. Difficult to imagine. imagine my grandma's jubilation, tune in that radio in the kitchen to listen, just to listen to this hour devoted entirely to women. The first time, she listened like a whisper, unsure, as if spying on her own mind,

secrets slowly spoken into public spaces, no entry sign finally ripped off. When did women talking to other women about issues that affect them become such a controversial concept in a world where we are half of every breath? So many centuries of silencing. Women's voices laughed from courtrooms, out of parliament and boardrooms, scientific fallacies invented about our bodies and our brains, our uncontrolled emotions.

Our voices deemed unsuitable for news and documentaries. Our inventions, uncredited, conversations labelled gossip, Gossip labelled fickle, campaigning, branded nagging. Our histories unnoted, unstudied, ink quills snatch from women's fingers, writing novels, plays and poems.

Women talking to other women almost invisible in film and television. Scripts limited to secondary characters. How many words? How much language? How many laws have been invented to turn women's discussions into insults our stories into shadows?

The lives of women packaged into parcels taboo taped across our every day. Of course, the first presenter of Women's Hour was a man, perfect for the job they said, a specialist in talking to women, as if training were needed to hold a conversation with these creatures from another world. My mother hung the washing as she listened,

or else with coffee in a biscuit, closed the kitchen door behind her for that hour of peace and quiet politics celebration. Such relief hearing voices like her own, echoing unashamedly on airwaves, finally reflected in a world of being stereotype and sideline. I listened for the first of the world, first time in my twenties, pregnant, terrified, excited, didn't think I needed it, this hour

where women talk to women until I needed it. And now we listen in our millions, women and men listen, in living rooms with toddlers grip to hips still, we listen, running errands, walking dogs in our gardens on the bus, in cars commuting back and forth from school runs and offices and parliament and boardrooms, we listen. And we'll listen, we will listen to this hour, where women talk to women will listen for another 80 years or more until every woman's story can be told. Thanks. Wow Holly, that is really quite something as you brought us through the ages there. You've captured the struggle and I loved that line about taking women's stories out of the shadows.

That's what we're all about, have been for 80 years as we are today. So thank you very much for using your voice. for us. Have you always found that easy? Not easy. I've always loved poetry, I guess, like Jackie really, since I was a little kid. I've loved sitting in my room scribbling poems. I don't really know why, but I think it's, it's, I found easy to find my voice when I'm sitting by myself. I think it's something that I love about writing that you've got this kind of confidence because you forget that the rest of the world exists in a way so I could write down all the things I was angry about or things

that I love that I might be embarrassed to share. I think it's then taking that and reading it to somebody else where the worry comes. How does it feel when you speak out? And I know obviously in this crowd, it's women's our listeners and people who have been with us on this journey. But what does it feel like when you actually articulate it? So my hands are still shaking just now. I don't know if that's from reading or trying not to cough while I was reading. But every time after I've read a poem, especially to be honest, if it's something that I feel passionate about,

there's almost this sort of embarrassment about being so passionate about something. Well, you're showing vulnerability, right? Yeah. So I'm in, I still, I feel kind of shaky, but also quite overjoyed every time sort of finish a poem and share it with somebody. Well, thank you very much for doing that.

And you know, listening is something that every radio presenter should be into and I very much are. Jackie, you are too. You're really as interested in listening as speaking. Tell us more. Yeah, I just love, I've always really been fascinated with the way that people speak.

I remember falling in love with the way that my mum spoke and kind of coining this phrase, the Glasgow double. She'd say, I'm not tired, tired, but I'm tired. I'm not hungry, hungry, but I'm hungry. You'd find somewhere between these two

hungry. She's the exact hungry. We're not going out. We're going out, out. Yes, exactly. So I kind of love these, the poetry that you find really in everyday speech. And I think that's what we all do, you know, poets. We try and find, we listen to how people speak and find the rhythms in ordinary speech and fascinating. And it is then what you can get across in ordinary speech or extraordinary speech, as we just had from Holly. I'm wondering with you, Fats, do you find it, easier to speak out when you do it in a creative way. Because you aren't perhaps campaigning by,

with a sledgehammer, you're doing it in a more subtle way, I'd say. I do it in a very charismatic way. So I might make you laugh. I might dance through it and have a quote on top of my video. I do it in a way that is entertaining so that people feel like they can be entertained by me, but also when they leave my video, they've left with something. They're aware about something, whether it's disability advocacy or women's rights or

whatever it may be that I'm campaigning about. And explain to me why you do it that way. I think for me it's, I don't like to be spoken out. I just tune off. And most people are like that. So I feel like I tend to listen to people that I like. So I want people to like me and then they'll listen to me. So I think that's probably my best way of dealing with it. And it has worked. Yeah, it definitely has worked for you.

But I just wondering, like just thinking about that poll, that some women are afraid to speak up in case they're considered difficult or demanding. But even when I've had to do it in a direct way, I've had to have a talk with myself and understand that, okay, I might have to ruffle some feathers and upset someone or a group of people. But, okay, if I'm demanding, if I feel demanding in that moment, it's just the moment. At least I can get what I want and speak up for myself and other people as well.

So I understand that fear. It is scary doing that, but I think it's really important to be the direct sometimes as a woman. Good words, good tips as well. I want to thank everyone. We know Woman's Hour would be nothing without our listeners. Yes, without you who is listening. And you have been telling us about things that you've heard on the program over the years that has inspired you to use your voice. And you know, we've got some powerful responses when we put out that call. Let us listen to Angela, Veronica, Barbara. But we're going to start with Rachel.

I got in touch with Women's Hour because I was in the middle of a really lengthy court case with my ex-husband, the father of my children, who was very violent. And I'd gone to court, but the first judge that we saw had dismissed it despite lots of evidence from the police and social services and that kind of thing. And so the domestic violence was dissoned.

By that time, I think we were on year four, he was continuing to weaponise the court against me, saying that I was alienating the children. He threatened to kill me, even in writing, and everything that I had as proof wasn't looked at because the first judge said, actually, we don't need to do this. So by the time I heard Women's Hour, I was going to prison because the final judge had believed my ex-husband when he said that I wasn't bringing the children to contact, which wasn't true at all. So I came home from court and I sat down at my kitchen table, put my head in my hands and I was crying. And I put Women's Hour on because I was listening to it and because it's a great sort of leveller. And I was absolutely amazed that there was a barrister on Women's Hour talking about people in exactly the same situation as me. And I felt completely alone. I had no idea what to do.

There was a gagging order in the family court. You're not allowed to talk to anybody about it. And then I listened to Women's Hour and suddenly I wasn't alone. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. So I contacted the barrister and she got the transcripts from the court hearing to verify everything that I was saying was absolutely amazed at such things were going on. And she took on my case. I didn't qualify for legal aid because it wasn't a domestic violence case until it was proven

and you can't get legal aid backdated. So the court case bankrupted me. But the point of it was to keep the children safe and to be. safe myself and he was ordered not to contact us, no direct contact or indirect contact. So whilst the cost was immeasurable, the children were safe because I listened to Women's Hour and I contacted this woman and I just, it changed my life, changed all of our lives. I heard your item about how has Women's Hour changed your life and I thought mine surely must be a good example.

Ironing one afternoon as it was in those days listening to Woman's Hour, somebody from the cabinet office, a woman called Anne Mula, came on, and said how they regretted losing a lot of women when they left to have children and how they were reaching out and they were offering part-time, flexi-working, job shares. I didn't believe it, but I got in touch with them and sure enough, yes, they checked my record and said, come back. I'd had 10 years out while I'd had my three children. I returned after maternity leave because they needed me to work on a private members bill that I'd been working on before I had my maternity leave. I did that, but when that was through, they then went back and said, no, no, can't have women in your grade working part-time, has to be full-time. So I resigned

to have my second child. I really enjoyed my time in the cabinet office and was able to work closely with ministers, and I retired as a senior civil servant and was awarded a CBE. I was born on the 7th of October, 1946. So I am 80 today, just like Woman's Hour. In 2006, I was listening to the program and it was a sort of crossroads of my life starting to look at going out to work. So that was quite daunting because I've been a stay-at-home mum really. And I was just by the kitchen sink washing up listening. And I heard Fiona Thorniwell, she had just completed the first, being the first woman to the South Pole. And she sort of told of her adventure.

And something in that just awakened me really. After the program, I emailed her. And one day she emailed and said, would you like to go with the team of six novices to the South Pole? And I said, yes, I'd love to, not really taking into account what that would look like. So I started fundraising, I started training. and I just sort of took each day as it comes really and just took slow steps to doing it.

I'd become a mum and had five children. So I was really busy with them and sort of bringing them up. And I think I lost myself basically. And I was quite happy to lose myself because I'd come from quite a tumultuous background really. So I thought that was a safe place to be. And I really enjoyed it. Actually, I really just loved watching my children grow up. After returning from the South Pole, I was back to where I was really thinking, well, I have to get a job. But that experience just really helped me to focus on what I could do.

And I went on to train as a teaching assistant, then went on to become a social prescriber, working with women in domestic violence. I got in touch with you because it's also my 80th birthday on the 7th of October. And in 1971, I was invited to come and speak on the air at the Woman's Hour 25th anniversary. It came about because my mother heard a request for all young ladies who were born on the 7th of October to write in. with a view to one person finally going on air on the day. And fortunately, I got asked to come and speak on the air. Congratulations for the Women's Hour 80th anniversary. We will celebrate together as twins, really.

Not quite so old and decrepit. We'll have some fun. Yes, we will. A very happy 80th birthdays to both Barbara and Angela. How fantastic to have their voices in the. the mix as well. Here's a Kieran. He says, a regular listener since 1990, I often joke that everything I've ever learned came from Woman's Hour, Best Wishes, from Kieran, a man, is how he signs off. So, you know, we're having this gallop through the past 80 years, but I want to go back to my guests

and we'll jump kind of briefly. The next 80 years, you know, because Women's Hour, it is about having those conversations, also about escapism and joy. Our two things I think are really important. with you Jackie and you're giving me a 30 second pitch of what you think the next 80 years should be. It's funny because I was at the women's hour 60th anniversary and it's just amazing to think of it in 20 years where will we be? What's happened and also what's not happened and it's depressing to think that here we are still fighting against racism when we thought that racism was something that we could fight against and win way back in the 70s it was still got world wars going on and it was still got terrible domestic violence so I'd like to see all of these things changed I'd like

like to see change our attitude to our planet because if we don't change that pretty quickly, we're not going to be here talking about anything in 80 years time. So that's my pitch. 30 seconds, done. Well done. Let me turn to you, Anna. What would you like to see for the next 80 years? Okay, so I think number one, we will have eliminated cervical cancer as a public health problem in Scotland. Number two, we will have abortion on request for women under a certain gestation. And number three, we won't need a women's health plan because women will be well represented in the NHS and every one of us will be listened to.

Fats? I think for me, I want the Me Too movement to be bigger moment. I want there to be more awareness to disability. advocacy and I want to see more women just thriving in their careers so which is really interesting because we're hearing about the private public divide and women not speaking up in public so no no more no more unequal pay gap let which leaves me beautifully thank you fats um to jane you're a 30 second pitch so much but in 30 seconds I hope we don't need to be celebrating women's voices because

because it will be totally normal for women to speak up, speak out and be listened to. Well, I want to thank Dr. Anna Glazier, Professor Jane Mayer, Fats Timbo, Jackie Kaye, and also Holly McNish. We are back tomorrow in London. Anita will have more details on the Woman's Hour poll, and also joined by Juliana Glass, who has the author of This is What Happens When Women Read. Here's a message from Jessica and Baby Joshua. in my housework, with my baby on my hip. To listen to that poem, it made me cry. It reminded me that I'm not alone in this world, that I am part of a huge community of women now and also throughout the ages. And Jessica signs off saying, thank you, Woman's Hour. I want to thank everybody who came out to the Glasgow Women's Library today and also to the Library for hosting us and to you for listening.

We'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Darrow Breed. And I'm Hannah Frye. And we're back with another series of curious cases exploring a whole new set of scientific head scratches,

including... Are identical twins basically human clones? Why is yawning so contagious? What is the mathematical magic behind tessellation? And why do we find tiny baby animals so cute? We are tackling all of these vitally important questions and more in a... Fresh batch of curious cases.

Listen first on BBC Sounds. An observatory in space. This is the real deal. This is going to revolutionize astronomy. Capable of capturing light from the dawn of the universe. It could be real exciting for the astronomical community, I guess, and for the whole world to see what Hubble really can do. From the BBC World Service, 13 Minutes Trouble with Hubble. The story of the Hubble Space Times.

Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.