Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour Live from Glastonbury!

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

For Woman's Hour's first ever live broadcast from Worthy Farm Anita is joined by BBC 6 Music's Jamz Supernova. Jamz gives Anita her top tips and talks us through the women she's most excited to see perform this year. Emily Eavis has been co-organising Glastonbury since 1999, working alongside her father and founder of the festival, Michael Eavis. Over the years, she's booked some of the biggest names in music, from Beyonce and Adele to the Rolling Stones. Emily has been committed to making the festival more sustainable, banning single-use plastics in 2019 and she's been vocal about improving gender equality within the live music industry. So how does she feel about this year’s line-up of all-male headliners? Four time Grammy nominee and folk legend Allison Russell joins Anita live for a very special performance. Alongside being a singer and songwriter Allison is a poet, an activist and a multi-instrumentalist. Fresh from performing alongside the one and only Joni Mitchell earlier this month she is at Glastonbury, performing on The Acoustic Stage.There are no female headliners at Glasto this year, what does this mean for women in the music industry? Anita is joined by a top panel including Vick Bain who has been in the business for over 25 years and founded The F List – a directory of female musicians, the Welsh songwriter and producer The Anchoress and 6 Music DJ and founder of Future Bounce record label Jamz Supernova. Rebecca, Diana and Kristine invited Anita to their camp site. The three friends, who are festival lovers and Woman’s Hour listeners, share their Glasto memories and tell us why it’s such a magical place. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello from Worthy Farm. For the first time in the history of Woman's Hour, we are live at Glastonbury, where some might not shower for days, others may peak too soon. I've already spotted a few casualties and some may lose their friends but it's okay because they'll find new ones. It's a very friendly place. Michael Evis first opened up his farm for a festival in 1970 and 53 years and 38 festivals later here we are.

Just to give you an overview of the size and scale of this mecca for music lovers. The site is over a thousand acres which is the equivalent of about 500 football pitches. The fence around the festival site is eight miles long. Getting from one place to another certainly ups your step count. There are over 100 bars, more than 500 food stalls, 400 toilet cubicles, very important, and 40,000 bins. But what about the music? Well, here's a flavour of some of the women you can expect to hear from over the next few days. That was, of course, Lizzo, Blondie and Candice Statham, but none of them will be headlining this year's festival because it's only men.

We're going to ask the festival's organiser, Emily Evis, why this is. Also on the programme, we'll have an exclusive live performance. And you really are in for a treat because I was listening to her rehearse from folk legend Alison Russell and I'm going to be joined by the very awesome Jam Supernova, six music, one extra DJ and owner of the record label Future Bounce. Alison and Jams, welcome to Woman's Hour at Glastonbury. How are you feeling? Yeah, this is so nice to be here. Isn't it? It's so joyful. It's my first Glastonbury, first Women's Hour, first Women's Hour at Glastonbury for you all. So this just feels like a beautiful conjunction.

It is a beautiful way to start your Glastonbury experience. Jams, who are you excited to see? Oh, man, I think Shy Girl Tonight. I'm just sort of starring one or two people a day. That's the ammo. And then if I go and have a little wander, I want to see the Star Feminine Band. I've got half an hour, little snatches and windows in between work

to go and check people out. But Shy Girl, Comet is coming. They're my two for the day. Very nice. Comet is coming, definitely. Nia Archives, I'm a big fan of. I'm going to go and check her out as well. Is your baby here with you? Is Forrest here?

Because tell me what you're doing as well. Because you're DJing, you're playing, you're doing your show. Yeah, so I'm doing three days radio starting today till Sunday, 1 till 4pm. I'm DJing and doing quite a lot of closing sets actually. So I've got a little takeover. Today at the Stonebridge Bar, I've created the whole stage from 11 till 5

and that's opposite the park. And then tomorrow I have got um my own set closing the icon stage saturday to sunday morning it's this big stage with a face on and like surrealism at its finest and then on friday i'm closing platform free at shangri-la and a little bit you are not are you gonna sleep i am i've factored it in every every everything is accounted for and i've got like little hacks that I've learnt from last year. I've got a little camper van to have a disco nap in. I'm feeling good.

Very good. Because Jams, you know, I'm, full disclosure, going to fangirl out. I'm a huge, huge fan. I think everything you do, your show on Six Music is brilliant. The fact that you run a record label. You've also had time to have a baby.

How do you manage to do it all? How do you fit it in? Are you very organised? I'm getting better. I think a baby. How do you manage to do it all? How do you fit in? Are you very organised? I'm getting better. I think a baby makes you get better. The other day I was on time for something. Just something random. I was on time and I was like,

I would never have been on time two years ago. Whereas now I make a point of working backwards from the point I need to be somewhere. So I think I'm definitely getting better and she's making me get better. But I have a lot of support and help and we wrote this thing for Grazia about bringing your baby to a festival. And I had to kind of put like a little disclaimer at the end and say,

yeah, for most of the festivals I am working to take what I say with a pinch of salt. And also it takes a village. And if you can and you have the ability to bring family members, friends, other parents, then do it because that's what you kind of need to be able to do. What I do is take my mum, my stepdad, my partner, my stepmom and my stepsister, they're all here. That's why I'm playing so many DJ sets. I know, amazing.

Mum, stepmom, sister, Alison, you were nodding away because you've got a daughter as well. I do. My daughter's nine now, but like you, Jams, she grew up on the road with me until she was five and she had an intervention with my partner and I and said, Listen, I love you guys. Always be part of the band.

But I want to go to school. Like she literally sat us down on a couch and had an intervention. You're going to be a bohemian road baby till at least the third grade. And then you can go to school. But no, she had other plans. So same. My sister, grandma's grandmas grandpas you know stepped in to help us

and dear friends it does take a village and they're better for it Alison I love that your daughter is strong willed enough to be able to sit you down and tell you exactly

what she wants at the age of five oh yes that's the kind of young girls we like you're like yes you should go to school yeah we gotta listen to them

it's so important I think that they teach us we learn more from them than we can ever teach i really do believe that a big mirror absolutely um our first ever woman's hour at glastonbury jams can we have some tips how am i going to survive this oh anita i think you're like fully stuck in you know where you're camping you've already lined up what you're doing tonight um but i have congratulations for bringing in woman's hour here because it feels monumental what you think? It's important to have a presence, you know. Definitely.

And there's a huge conversation around what it means to be a woman in the music industry and also at a festival which we are going to delve into right now because there are over 200,000 people here and some of the female festival goers have been telling us what matters most to them at Glastonbury. The toilets are great now. I think they've got on top of that a bit more now. And sometimes I like to go down the front

and they look after you when you get down the front. There's definitely a lot of up-and-coming artists that I personally love to go and see, but it's more the headline acts that I'm missing for a female domination. I'd be personally, I'd probably say MI, but it's time of the month, so having somewhere that I can feel clean and sort myself out. As a parent at Glastonbury, what's important for me is just the kids enjoying themselves. There's literally so many places that are just made for children at Glastonbury,

and the fact that they can come for free just shows that the festival really wants children to come and embrace it as well. Safety, respect, and just sharing the love. Safety, respect and sharing the love. There's a lot of respect and sharing the love here. So that's what the festival goers think about what it means to be a woman at the festival. What about the woman at the top, Emily Evis? Emily has been co-organising Glastonbury since 1999, working alongside her father and the founder of the festival, Michael Evis. She's booked some of the biggest names in music from Beyonce and Adele to the Rolling Stones and she's not been afraid of shaking up the lineup with a booking of Jay-Z back in 2008,

the festival's first ever hip-hop headliner. It caused quite some uproar from rock devotees. Well, I'm delighted to say I was joined by Emily yesterday morning backstage at the Park Stage to have a little catch-up, and I began by asking her how she's feeling. I'm feeling really good. This is a really... Thursday morning is lovely. We've got most people on site now. The atmosphere is brilliant. I'm just looking up on the hill. I can see people clearing the hill of little bits of remnants of last night and we've had a yeah really it's I love the mornings at Glastonbury very relaxing people lots of people doing yoga a lot of people doing kind of workshops it's got a very relaxed feel to it I saw someone having a wash with a watering can that was very

interesting this morning I love it everything goes I love that and I never thought about who would have thought to bring a watering can that's very wise seasoned pros so for anyone who doesn't know what is your role my father started the festival in 1970 so it's been a long time in our on our farm and then I've sort of slowly ended up kind of being more involved over the years and now take quite a big role but it's great fun she's the boss lady at the top was it inevitable were you always gonna end up here no absolutely no chance I was really determined not to and then something happened I think over the years I kind of of enjoy the festival more than I used to.

When I was little, I was like, I'm never going to do that because it was quite daunting, the kind of prospect. And also, I think we always ran the festival from the house as if it was the last one every year. We never, ever thought it was going to go for a second year, third. You know what I mean? It was always like, are we going to do it next year?

Yeah, that'll probably be the last. And now, obviously, we're running it with a kind of view to keeping it going for as long as possible and so it is a very different entity so it's never like oh you might do this never ever so what was it about it that you didn't like was it the fact that your parents worked around the clock or what why didn't what was your relationship with it well it's a very all-consuming and we live right in the middle of the site we didn't have any offices everything went through the house the medical facility was in our sitting room so we had our dining room table was the bed that people lay on to be checked out by the doctors so the queue for the people waiting in the morning every morning just like waiting for medical was all past the kitchen through the house

I mean I have to say your dad Michael is a visionary like he's a remarkable human being to have come up with this idea and to have it on your land and then to adapt and change it and then to bring you on board I think was just a stroke of genius because I really feel Emily that you have brought it into the modern age and have made it more relevant to everybody and that happened particularly when you booked Jay-Z that year but it kicked off and I just wonder how as a woman at the helm you hold your nerve in a situation like that well I think my dad's always been a great champion of women he's surrounded himself by women right from day one my mum was by his side and kind of I don't think that it would have

happened without her in terms of his vision and her kind of holding everything down you know him flying away with ideas and kind of great you know um missions but she was sort of like she held everything together and looked after people. And so I think... What was mum's name? My mum was called Jean. So I think them together, that was the sort of really special partnership.

And I think he probably had quite a lot of faith, I guess, and belief that I could do it even when I probably wasn't sure myself. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, he'd always be like, yeah, you go and belief that I could do it even when I probably wasn't sure myself do you know to me so it's like yeah he'd always be like yeah you go and do that you can talk to news night I'd be like really I don't know what I'm talking about you can do that and I say oh okay you know and I just sort of like just sat there when I was like 18 in front on the desk and he's like kind of going what we'll have to find that footage. I know, do not.

So he'd be like, I don't know, who do you think should play? I mean, it's up to you, you know. And so I started really just, yeah, like coming into my own and thinking, right, I can do something really fun here, you know, which is different to things we've done before. And that is kind of what led to Jay-Z really. He was right behind that, even though he didn't know who Jay-Z was. He was right behind it. He was like, if you think it's a good idea then great I think that's a super skill to trust someone else to say okay I'm going to trust you because you know more than

I do totally I think so and especially with young girls now I see that because having a daughter myself I'm quite often like go on you can do that yourself you don't need my help there's one thing kind of having the inner confidence and being instilled by your parents or your family but then having to deal with the rest of the world so the sort of backlash that you face and you have talked about sexism that you face in the music industry as well so how do you you know stand your ground in front of all of that um that was tough it was tough with Jay-Z and it was the first time I'd really been just me against the world in that way

and it felt very, very... It's funny, when a mood kind of changes like across the media or it can just, it can kind of run through everything and permeate every single, everyone I saw,

every, like, a bus driver, a cab driver, a teacher at school or whatever it was, people I was coming into contact with, everybody an opinion about it it was really extraordinary and I think things with Glastonbury can it can happen like a story can just really really gather pace and kind of everyone can have an opinion and the opinion's based on you know a slanted view from a newspaper

or something and it's very hard you can the you can the only thing you can do is let it happen let's talk about the noise around this year and the controversy around this year which is the lack of female headliners emily why haven't you booked one well i'm sure you've heard about what happens yeah come on tell me so obviously i have been a major champion of i know equal billing yes so i'm like 50-50 gender split. That's my subject. You can talk to me about it, you know, till the cows come home. So having raised this on the kind of, you know, public stage, I suppose,

and being like, look, guys, we need to do this, because most festivals are booked by men. And the live music industry is pretty dominated by men. There are lots of women too by men there are lots of women too and there are lots of great men but it is still very male dominated so I was like look we need to address this we need to like start booking more and most people are like shut up really well like people are like oh for god's sake you know like it's not taken that seriously if you look around at all the other bills there aren't like people really taking it

seriously i think it's 18 percent emily that's it exactly so i think people are getting away with it and mostly it's fine because you know like there isn't the pool of women to choose from so that is an issue that's what i talked about as being a pipeline issue but we being the kind of you know the ones that are waving the flag obviously got shot down this year because we booked, we did have a female for Saturday night and she pulled out.

And with booking headliners, it's not quite as sort of straightforward as people seem to think, which is like, oh, there's, what about Beyonce? Or, oh, I hadn't thought of that. It's like, you know, there aren't that many people touring.

It's to do with timings and their fitting into their tours, but also lots of other issues. Like sometimes people will be signed up to other things and it means they can't do, you know, exclusive deals and all that. So basically we ended up booking a male-fronted band for Saturday night. And then we announced the line-up and obviously there was a bit of an outcry about that from some quarters and I do understand it's really good that people were

talking about it and I kind of feel like well that's what we wanted to do we wanted to open up the conversation and we did absolutely and also the conversation women are talking post me too we are all shouting about where are we in any landscape and particularly in the music industry yeah so how does it work how does the booking system work it's very competitive actually and even though we're the largest festival the perception is probably that we can just get anyone well yeah can i give you a quote not not bad for a girl it's a dj collective based in manchester and they promote female and non-binary acts uh they said that organizations like austin we have a responsibility to set the standard for the industry and martha bolton who's their founder

says it needs to be the bigger people taking the jump for the rest of us who can't afford the risk yeah yeah i mean it's true to be honest i are so the way the way it works here is that there's you know over 100 stages there's different bookers across all stages and obviously I'm doing kind of the main stages with Nick my husband and I couldn't be more on people's cases about trying to book women and men but the pool isn't is not big enough at the moment and so we do need the whole industry to really kind of nurture women and keep these women coming through and not kind of you know ending record contracts and dropping people if they're not rewarding in that way that they need because i'm like the problem is it's not we're not going to get those female headlines

if we don't nurture those artists get them coming through and support them lizzo's up there yeah lizzo confirmed way after so like so people look at it and they go, why didn't you put... But it's like, no, no. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. But a great idea. Again, Lizzo would have been an amazing headliner

and hopefully she will headline. But also, people confirm at different times. Headliners tends to be in July. So we're on headliners for next year now. Ooh, give us some names. Who's the dream? I still would love to get Flea with Mac. And I'd love to get Kate Bush.

Kate Bush. Can I share a story? 20 years ago, because you and I worked together, we were in a bar, and I remember you saying you would love to book Whitney Houston. I remember that conversation. Whitney would have been amazing. I'd love to have had Whitney

and Tina. There's so many. Oh God, that would have been so good. So they are there. They're there. Those, absolutely. But I could show you a list and there are 500 names and like 10.

And it's like there are 500 names and like 10, you know, and it's like there are 500 men and 10 women and that's what we need to do is build up that so it's the same length. Build up that so it's the same length and we are going to be talking a lot more about that throughout the programme. That was Emily Evis, the woman at the top of Glastonbury. But now a real treat for you all.

I am joined by folk legend Alison Russell. She is the two-time winner of the International Folk Music Awards and four-time Grammy nominee. Her new album The Returner will be released later this year. It features Alison's Rainbow Coalition. This is her band of female musicians, more on them in a moment. Alongside being a singer and a songwriter Alison is a poet, an activist being a singer and a songwriter, Alison is a poet, an activist, a multi-instrumentalist. I'm looking at her right now. She is an absolute radiant beauty, fresh from performing alongside the one and only Joni Mitchell, no less, earlier this month. She is here at Glastonbury, appearing on the acoustic

stage later today. And in a moment, she is going to play for you live I heard her rehearse it's going to be incredible you don't need to go anywhere for the next 40 minutes stay with us on Woman's Hour welcome to Woman's Hour Alison thank you thank you Anita such a joy to be here with you both with you and Jams yeah how are you feeling about performing first time I'm so excited this has been a real bucket list for me for 20 years now. My first baby band, Poe Girl, put out our first record 20 years ago this month, which is insane to think on. Since then, I've been dreaming of playing Glastonbury, so it's a big deal for me to get to be here with you all.

Isn't it wonderful when your dreams come true? You have those pinch-me moments. It's actually happening deal for me to get to be here with you all. Isn't it wonderful when your dreams come true? You have those pinch me moments. It's actually happening in my life. Sitting with Joni next to Annie Lennox and Sarah McLachlan. Like what is happening? Pinching myself over and over and over again. Oh, delicious. Yes, it was so delicious.

I can't even. I think our listeners should get to know you a little bit. Tell us about yourself and where your love of music comes from. Well, I grew up in Montreal and I was really lucky because Montreal has an incredible jazz fest and a lot of free public art. So I grew up surrounded by art. My childhood was not the happiest. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and my primary abuser was my adoptive father, who was also a white supremacist. And for those of you who can't see me, which is all of you, I'm a black woman.

So being raised by white supremacists was interesting, to say the least. Constant decolonizing of my mind through art, through songs, through chosen family. But really, music is the thread that the reason I survived my childhood is because of music, is because of art, is because of literature, seeing and dreaming that there could be another way to live. And so I'm quite evangelical about art and how important it is and the humanities and how important they are. And I think it's a scary time when every single funding for arts is that that's the first thing to go, right? Oh, we need to tighten the budget. Austerity measures, it seems like that's the first thing to go right oh we need to tighten the budget austerity measures it seems like art is the first thing that gets axed and it is what we need the most right now I think for our to in order to be able to continue to creatively problem solve and

break down bigotry we need art absolutely here it's that and you don't shy away from singing about those topics you know I don't I don't I think we have to be able to talk about all of the things if we want to break these violent cycles that are harming us and our babies. We've got to be able to talk about it all. For years and years, you were a collaborator in bands, working with others, most notably in the group Our Native Daughters.

You're a group of black female banjo players. That sentence delights me. I understand that the group was set up to counter the narrative that black women weren't invited to the table. So tell me more about the project. Well, really, Rhiannon Giddens, our queen, who, by the way, congratulations, Rhiannon, she just won the Pulitzer Prize for music for her opera Omar, which is a work of genius. And I am so excited and so proud of her. congrats Rih. Rhiannon Giddens really brought us together she was at the Smithsonian she was at the National Museum of African American History

and Culture and in the archives and just getting really really inspired by the number of stories of black women that don't see the light of day and she was really feeling that our voices were missing from the canon even when you look at music you know we are so foundational the african diaspora is so foundational to the roots of every genre of modern song every single yeah there's not there's not one genre that hasn't been influenced affected by built on foundational africanporic roots. And of course, the same is true for all North American, Americana, folk music, any of it. So we just decided to start singing these stories. And we banded together, Rhiannon Giddens, Amethyst Kia, Leila McCalla and I. And we accidentally became a band.

We meant to just, you know, do this record, but Songs of Our Native Daughters seemed to touch something for, it's kind of in the zeitgeist, and it had this, you know, five-star Guardian review and all of this attention and press, and we were shocked by it. We just thought, we're just four little nerdy black girls with our banjos, like, why does anybody care?

But they did, and it was quite life-changing. I'm intrigued to know, and Jams, I don't know whether you want to know this either, what does it feel like when you've just been you on your own, and then all of a sudden there's a group of you with your banjos in a room together? What does that do to you? It was just joyful. There's so much strength in our circles, right? Our circles of chosen family and sisterhood.

There's so much, and especially for those our circles of chosen family and sisterhood there's so much and for you know for especially for those of us who are intersectional as a queer black woman there are a lot of circles that I've made to stand on the outside of and so when you start to begin to form circles with people who see you and love you and value you just as you are it's incredibly healing and there's exponential goodness that comes out of it the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts and so many doors have opened from the four of us forming that circle together for all of us for each of us individually but also for the people that we then get to bring forward through those doors that open because you never walk through the door alone

you link arms with anyone you can and you bring them through with you at jams you set up you your own record label future bounds Bounce. Similar reasons? Yeah, definitely. I mean, for me, it's kind of shouting that little bit louder and doing more work than I can do by pressing play on the radio. And also being visible as a black woman that owns a bit of equity in the music industry as well, because I think I've worked at major labels where I'm there because I'm a black woman I'm sitting at the table but you're not listening to me I've got no autonomy I can't do nothing yeah and I think that slowly after a while starts to chip away at you so I sort of said to myself why am I giving time to them when I could give time to myself and I think

it was the most powerful thing that I could have done but you built your own table I had to yeah I had to but I loved what you said about you know, when you're in a room together and it can be, whatever you share in that moment from being from marginalized communities, the ideas that form and the way you can really uplift each other and what comes out of it is like we're building our own ecosystem and out of it comes monetary opportunities and spiritual as well. Absolutely.

And also there's that unspoken, unsaid groundwork that's already been done. You don't have to, you just go in at a level. The communication is at a different level. All the things you don't have to say. Absolutely. You don't have to explain yourself constantly. Alison, a solo career wasn't something that you'd imagined for yourself, but it happened. 2021, your album Outside Child came out, winning multiple awards.

And, you know, you've talked about it already. It dealt with some pretty heavy themes, including the child abuse that you faced. How did it feel finally putting your voice and your story out there? It was very much, very cathartic, I think. And because I am a mother now, I feel a kind of an urgency to make sure that we're leaving things better than we found them and that they are children that your forest that my ida that anyone's child is not having to carry the same burdens that we've had to and i you know i found myself saying things to my daughter like use your words and then

i started turning that on myself am i using my words actually as well as i could be as bravely as i could be as truthfully as as I could be? As truthfully? As effectively? As constantly? I'm just never going to shut up again because it's all hands on deck. We're in a very precipice moment, I think, for our species, quite honestly. And it sounds hyperbolic, but it's really not when we look at... My province right now, Quebec, is on fire. And New York couldn't breathe for a good three weeks because of the rampant fires in Quebec.

Unheard of. We always have some forest fires. But this is climate change-fueled forest fire. This is species ending, potentially, what we're doing right now. We're pushing ourselves to this precipice of mass extinction. The planet will go on, but will we be here? I sort of think of humanity like we're in our adolescence and it's such a precarious time and so I feel everything I can do to reduce harm I approach everything that way harm reduction it's

not I'm not going to be able to create a utopia by singing a song but maybe I can reduce a little bit of harm in the world and you're also going to make us feel magnificent just by listening to your music and that that is doing a lot of good in the world. And you're also going to make us feel magnificent just by listening to your music. And that is doing a lot of good in the world. Let's talk about your new album, The Returner. It's coming out later this year. What was your inspiration for that record? I am so excited about it.

It's about survivor's joy. It's about stealing joy from the teeth of turmoil. It's about getting tired of constantly doubting and hating yourself and embracing self-love and love of your community. It's about banding together with my... It's 16 women on that record. 16 women, 10 songs, 6 days, 3 chosen brothers.

And we made it at the old A&M Studios, which is now Henson Studios. So presided over now by Kermit the Frog. The reason, by the way, that I play banjo, just as an aside. It's just the truth. But the old A&M is where Joni recorded Blue and Court and Spark. It's where Carole King recorded Tapestry. And it's where 15 brilliant artists, all women and I, got together and made The Returner in six days. And it was joy. It's my first time stepping into the co-producer's role alongside Dim Star.

And of course, I co-wrote the entire record, this time with my partner and his brother. And so they are Dim Star together. And it was a joyful family affair in every way. You're making me feel joy just listening to it. I've written down joy from the teeth of turmoil. Bring that quote. Exactly, that is a tattoo. I read a quote you'd given describing the record groove as it heralds the self back into the body groove as it celebrates sensual and sexual agency

and flowering groove as an urgent call to action and political activism allison how do i get that groove i want your groove you've already got it i need some of that jams I get that groove? I want your groove. You've already got it. I need some of that groove. Jams, we need that groove. You're already both doing it. I'm just busking in your glow right now. I'm learning so much. You're both already in that groove. Everything that you do, the sacred curatorship, that's what you're both doing.

That's an incredibly sacred role. And what Emily was talking about, curatorship means you decide who's a headliner. Right? And that's the next step. And I'm sure she'll take that next step. And it's so brilliant that you were here because you were the one that needed to ask her that question.

Nobody else thought to ask her that question, but you did. And there was the trust of a 20-year friendship and acquaintanceship to be able to have that discussion honestly. And that's a beautiful thing. And I hear what she's saying that Lizzo confirmed later, but there's no stage in the world in which Lizzo's not the closer to me. Absolutely, yeah. She is a headliner of all headliners.

She burns the stage down every time. It's incredible. I got to hear her. We did Jazz Fest in New Orleans for the first time this year earlier, and Lizzo was the headliner on the day that we played. Earlier in the day, it was a similar thing. We did an acoustic stage earlier in the day, sort of a similar thing we did an acoustic stage earlier in the day and then Lizzo just shut it

down, it was amazing when she brings out the flute she performed once, one song three minutes, highlight 100% same at the Grammys, she just destroyed at the Grammys as well yeah, outstanding, talking of Lizzo performing, I feel like we need some

live music here on Woman's Hour. Tell us what you're going to play for us. So this is a song off the new record. It's called Eve Was Black. And I mentioned before I had an abusive childhood. I was raised by a white supremacist, expat, American adoptive father. And so he was raised in a sundown town, a county where black people were not allowed to spend the night.

That's how bigoted and racist it was. So this is kind of a letter to him and to anyone suffering from the delusion of white supremacy. So Alison Russell is going to pick up her banjo, step up to the microphone, and you are in for a real treat here, performing live for us on Women's Hour from Glastonbury. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce to you the wonderful Alison Russell. Oh yes! Alison Russell, thank you so much. Jams, wow. Next level. Next level. If you are here at glasto get down to see alison perform on the acoustic stage later to sit today i know me and jams are gonna hop over there run um thank you so

much you are welcome at woman's hour anytime we'll put the kettle on when we're in the studio we'll roll out the red carpet have an amazing amazing performance thank you so much and it's such a joy meeting you both, chatting with you both. Thank you, Alison. All the best, everyone. Now, you might be familiar with the story of Ray, an artist who's been an outspoken critic of the music industry after spending nearly a decade in a record label,

unable to release an album without their say-so. Well, earlier this year, the newly independent Ray released an album of songs, including this one, Hard Out Here Well, she did bounce back winning an Ivor Novello Award for Best Contemporary Song and she'll be performing on the iconic Pyramid Stage tomorrow and it's not just Ray of course, Taylor Swift

is re-recording her first six albums after the rights were sold without her knowledge. But how common is this type of experience and what are the biggest challenges facing women in the music industry Well, I'm joined by three women who know a thing or two about this. Vic Bain has worked in the sector for 25 years. She's the founder of the F-List, a directory of all female musicians, songwriters, composers and bands in the UK. The Welsh songwriter and producer, the anchoress, a.k.a. Catherine Ann Davis, is an independent artist having left her record label.

She's two albums under her belt herself and Jams is still with me, a six music DJ and owner of her own record label, Future Bounce. Welcome to all three of you. Vic, I'm going to come to you first. Let's start with festivals and the topic of conversation that came up with Emily, female headliners. It's something I was talking to her about. No female headliners this year. How important is something like this when taking the temperature of the power that women hold in the industry? Well, these headlining slots are the most prestigious, the highest status. That's what everybody sees, first of all,

is those Friday, Saturday, Sunday headline acts. Of course, it is disappointing there are no women this year. But just to say, I've done more of an analysis on the top 10 stages at Glastonbury this year. 28% of the headliners that have been booked at those top 10 stages are women. So it's, you know, it's a mixed picture, shall we say. Catherine, as someone working as a musician, what do you put it down to? I really agree with Emily that it's a pipeline issue. You know, vessels are just the tip of the

iceberg when it comes to see women and non-binary representation in the industry. I really agree with Emily that it's a pipeline issue. You know, festivals are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to seeing women and non-binary representation in the industry. And I think, you know, the owners can't just be exclusively on festivals to rebalance what's fundamentally, unquestionably seen across the industry. We have male-dominated record labels. We have male-dominated sectors. We have radio not playing women. So it's really just the tip of the iceberg, really. radio not playing women so it's really just a tip of the iceberg really

radio not playing women uh what's your experience of this jams with dj does it come back to you playing more women on your shows yeah i think we all have a part to play in this i do think you know uh some some more than others but we can you know it's sort of what um what reduction harm reduction which is what allison was talking about We can all have a role within harm reduction. And definitely, especially from a radio standpoint, we've always thought about, we've had quite a lot of men, or I'm always thinking, I play three songs from a guy, maybe I need to play someone,

think about playing a woman or digging that a little bit deeper. I could never do a show that was all men. That would be alien to me. And maybe that is because I am a woman, that I would think like that and do the extra layer but it does take that a little bit more work um and I think when you start to think about the different genres like when I was doing my one extra show which is a uh R&B soul alternative um show um I was playing more women and now I'm doing a more kind of clubby up-tempo uh, electronic-driven show. I am playing less women.

So I do think that's something for me to be aware of and to do the extra work to play more women and not just from the pool that I know of as well. I was going to say, the pool came up a few times. The pool is smaller. Is that something you can understand? Not when the world's so big. I don't think that...

I get to travel the world through this work and I meet so many women across the board that are doing incredible things from Nottingham to Norway, that are running their own parties, that are running workshops to get more women into production, that are teaching women how to be sound engineers. And it's something like me taking the time to interview them and bring it back and play it on BBC Radio 6 Music

and now we know this person, now we know that person. And then we can go on the journey with them as they continue to grow. There's a girl called Asna from Ivorian Coast living in Paris she wears these amazing seashells on her face as a mask and I first met her playing in Berlin and we had her on the show there just like a quick little thing, now she's part of

a great band and she's coming to play Glastonbury on Sunday Because you see it, because you clock the women So we run with it What is it going to take to change it like what is actually you've done all the research so tell us is the pool smaller is that true it is absolutely true in 2019 i did research analyzing the the gender balance of over 300 record labels and music publishing companies based in the UK, only 20% of signed artists were women. 20%, you know, which I mean, it shocked me. I think it shocked everyone. But all of the women I knew out there were going, yep, yep. You know, we see that,

we live that. So, you know, I really hope that that was a bit of a wake up call to everybody, to the industry to start looking at their own data, looking at their own rosters. You know, I knew people who were running labels who'd never even thought about looking. Oh, who am I signing? Oh, you know, we've got no women on our roster. Maybe there's a problem there. So, you know, that definitely is the pipeline to the festivals, but we all play a part. This is an interconnected ecosystem.

And, you know, I think it's great that there's this focus on Glastonbury because it is the mother of all festivals. And everybody looks to Glastonbury to set the trend so 41% of the of the acts booked on the top 10 stages this year 41% are women let's get that to 50% and you know and not and not let up. Well you say 20% of all signed artists are women but then when they sign them how are they looked after and do the women want to stay there because Catherine you you ditched yours and went independent I mean certainly did and I was the only female solo artist on my label I mean that's partly down to genre you know the music that I make is in the kind of progressive rock kind of arena which has obviously historically

been more male dominated but during the time that I was with the label there was only other one woman who was signed as part of a band there and both of us have subsequently left the label and I think that's due to do with culture it's to do with being made to feel welcome being made to feel understood and being made to feel supported and those structures just weren't there for me and I'm very much happier to be away from that situation. I also want to add in those major label situations the questions that are asked around the potential signing of a woman are so much greater than are asked of a man. Go on give us an example. So it would be like okay so but there's also another singer that is also in that lane so is

it this one or is it that one so you always get that is it Ray Black or is it Georgia Smith that was a question, you know, asked in 2020, 2015. Then it's about, well, what's their socials like? You know, what's their, are they selling shows? Are they actually selling shows? Are they connecting? Are they on Instagram? Are they on TikTok? What's their numbers like? And then it's like, but do you think they can actually sing?

You know, or is this just a pretty girl that's just making music? Are they going to relate to the wider audience? Will teenage girls like them? Will teenage boys wider audience? Will teenage girls like them? Will teenage boys like them? Will the moms like them? There's so many more questions that just don't get asked. And I remember bringing in Green Tea Peng, who went on to play a great slot at the West Holt stage just before she went off and had a baby last year.

And she was beautifully pregnant, looking like a goddess. I brought in Green Tea Peng to want to sign her just around her first EP. pregnant looking like a goddess i bought in green teapeng to want to sign her um just up just just around her first ep and the question was like but she's got tattoos on her face is that going to be commercially viable so is post malone so is every hip-hop artist in the world got tattoos somewhere and in the rock world as well so why is this woman of color being held to such of a such a higher standard katherine you were smiling and nodding away there. Yeah, I think it's this idea that, you know, female is a genre and in some way we're all pitted against each other

and women can only make, you know, we can only be in our own lane. It is ridiculous. And I think I was smiling and nodding as well about, you know, so many more questions asked. You know, I had a baby a couple of years ago and, you know, the question was, was I going to be retiring and not touring anymore? A question never asked of any man in a rock band you know and she's going to be at Glastonbury with me we're going to be out on tour together it and it's about those kind of wider

sort of supportive infrastructures that just aren't there just as freelancers as creative individuals the child care system is not set up for us you know you've got to book in your set days being a musician being creative your work doesn't come that way so there are lots of kind of bigger cultural issues I think that really impact women and force them to exit the industry as well do you think Vic record labels have female interest best interest female artists best interests at heart well I can't generalize but I think data data and statistics a whole story, doesn't it? If 80% of signed artists are men, what is going on there? So how are you going to do things differently, Jams?

How do you make decisions in the boardroom? I like to see you in a boardroom. In my living room. In your living room with baby. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your game plan? How do you work?

I think for me it's kind of, I said it before, kind of doing the extra work to make sure that if I'm looking at, you know, we had like a club series and looking at who we're signing over this club series, it's one release every month and we keep it moving quite fast. And then it's like, well, who are the three people that we just had in the last instance? Who are they? Are they just white men? Are they men? Or are they from the same genre? It's for me to kind of do the extra work to reach out further ahead to make sure that I have more of a balance so I normally would start approaching women that I want for the series a lot earlier than I would start approaching the men and the feedback that I kind

of got for for the women that I wanted was it just takes me a little bit longer could you be patient with me because they're learning as they're as they're big. They're DJing and then having to learn how to produce because of the demand. They're not necessarily always the 15-year-old that was in the bedroom playing PlayStation. And also, you know, as young women, we've grown up in a culture where, you know, the boys are kind of out there and they're the DJ.

You started DJing. I mean, you've been playing music forever and you grew up in a household full of music, but you didn't start DJing until 23? Yeah. Is that got on the decks? Yeah, yeah. Yeah? I yeah yeah yeah I was scared I was so scared I thought I'd missed my chance I thought because I hadn't been that 50 you know my partner he's been DJing for for more than half of his life because he started in his bedroom when he was 13 years old um and I thought that because I hadn't done that and it's 10 years later I've missed my I missed the boat how am I

ever going to learn which is stupid and ridiculous so what I try and do for the women that I really want to be on the project is give them that extra time and ask them what support do you need you need some studio time do you want to do some co-productions like it's okay to work with other people men have been doing that since the dawn of time if you want to get in the studio to to help you get over the line and to finish it then we can we can do that as well like whatever you need I'm here and Katherine your success as the anchoress you know came as an independent artist just how liberating was it to go out on your own and produce or were you scared

you know what I felt like I really needed to do that on the second record to kind of prove to people that I could you know write and produce an entire record myself because I think you know when I think Lana Del Rey said this too, you know, whenever there's a man that walks in the room, they automatically get given half the credit for what you've done. And I think I really felt that kind of onus on me culturally. And I've been working with Vic's organisation, The F List, recently, actually.

We've been running these workshops to encourage more women into the studio spaces. And to, you know, really just make women feel that there is a space that they can occupy that technology is for them you know as jams are saying you may not have grown up djing you may not have grown up you know recording music in your bedroom but that doesn't mean that it's too late for you to do that now so i feel that's another you know a really important thing that we need to do is you can't be what you can't see right so i've got to be very visible as a

producer and your your music and your album is absolutely stunning, I have to say, Catherine, get it in there. I think we just need to ask final questions. We are running out of time, sadly. We need women's two hours today. Yes, because when there can only be one, it pits people against each other. All of us can kind of appreciate what that means

as part of this panel. Is there a sisterhood in the music industry? Do you feel women get enough support from other artists? Everyone's nodding. Yeah, from other women, definitely. Yeah, 100%. And doing more work than they, you know, sometimes work is not the onus should be on us

to do even more work to always create the conversation and create the action we need. You know, Alison talked about her chosen brothers. We need our brothers as well to come and join the fight. Absolutely. Vic? Yes, you know, I created the F-List three years ago in lockdown. It's a community of nearly 6,000 women and non-binary musicians now. We do lots of projects that Catherine was referring to culture

belonging lots of other projects it's it's women helping other women so there's a really brilliant sisterhood out there absolutely and we are all about the sisterhood here on Woman's Hour which is why we have absolutely loved this conversation Vic, Catherine thank you so much for joining me for that really interesting chat. Now, let me tell you, when we announced that Women's Hour were coming to Glastonbury, a wonderful email popped into our inbox. It was from one of our listeners, Rebecca. We love our listeners. We love you all.

She invited me along to her campsite. She said, come and see us. Come and see us. We come every year. Well, I'm not one to turn down an invitation. So yesterday, I went to meet Rebecca and her pals, Diana and Christine. So I'm on my way to try and find three intrepid women who got in touch with the programme to say that they come to Glastonbury every single year and do it their way. I've been told to look out for a pink Union Jack. There it is. There they are. Hello, gang. How are you? Oh, you found us. I found you. Look, I mean, how civilised is this?

You have your own gazebo. We do. We do. Lights, fairy lights and bunting as well. Bunting. And look, there's a little floral headdress round behind you. So let's get your names. I'm Rebecca.

Christine. Diana. Lovely to see you all. So tell me about your Glastonbury experience then. When did you start coming as a trio? As a trio, 2017, I think it was, for the first time. And we started right away bringing each our own tents so that we can have a private space.

What, you've got a tent each? Yeah, but I think we should keep that a little bit quiet. Hang on, these enormous tents behind me. Yes, yes. They're not that enormous. This is not a campsite. This is a camp suite so you started coming in 2017 and what brings you back every year well it's the atmosphere isn't it we live

our lives we live our husbands well we don't even invite them to be honest we leave it all behind and it's just such an inclusive place you can go and walk around glass of green your pajamas like i did this morning or you can wear a mad dress nobody cares liberating liberating did any of you come as uh as youngins have any of come uh I came back 10 years ago I mean I grew up three miles from here so my parents lived three miles away but we never came then it wasn't cool I'm not in my 50s because Rebecca said in her email that we were in our 50s I thought I better fess up I'm so delighted you have festa because, you know, often people put limitations on women's ages. This is what 62 does. 62 comes to Glastonbury and has an amazing time. So what's the plan? Because what's the setup? Do you get here early?

Yeah, we're in the queue. We left home at one. We were in the queue at three. So we're in the queue for five hours, getting our carpet chairs out, espresso martinis. Why do you get here so early? We need to camp here because we want to be able to see the pyramid stage. So if you stand up, you can see the pyramid stage. If there's a band on and we're a bit too tired to go, we can lie in our camp beds. We go, yeah, we saw Billie Eilish. Okay, let's talk practicalities.

What is the shower toilettoilet situation? Because there will be a lot of women listening to this thinking, oh, they're having a great time, maybe we should do it, girls, next year. But? Well, a lot of people say, I don't go to Glastonbury for the toilets, but you have a system. So what we do is you have a bag, a tote bag that you hang around your neck. Oh, come on.

And then you hang it around your neck so it's open, and in it you have a packet of Dettol wipes, biodegradable, that you clean the seat with. Other wipes are available? I have air freshener that I spray around the inside and then baby wipes by degradable. When we come out of the toilet we say to girls or women go in there it's nice and clean. You're like Glastonbury angels! Alright so that's the toilet situation what about showering? Well I usually have a couple of showers, and the showers in the kids' field, they're lovely.

Right, and what about you two? No, we don't shower. Right, so I shouldn't be downwind then. Right, exactly. But we wipe. We're baby wipes, basically. Yeah, it's only Thursday, Anita. Yeah, yeah.

You don't want to be downwind of us on Sunday. And our hair won't look so good. No, no, but the hair you can work with, just pits and bits. Yeah, exactly. Pits and bits, pits and bits, great. No, no, but the hair you can work with, just pits and bits. Yeah, exactly. Pits and bits, pits and bits, great. And do you have children?

Yeah. What do they think about the fact that you're here? One of mine is here. He put the gazebo up for me yesterday. Oh, that's useful. And the flag. What's his name? Sebastian.

And how old's Sebastian? He's 24. Oh, brilliant. And so you got him to do some work. Yeah. And now, have you seen him again? I haven't seen him since, no. That's it. Do you want to see him?

Not really, no. He wants us to go to Shangri-La with him tonight but I'm not sure. Come on, come on. We're going to try, aren't we? We're going to go for it. Go on, explain what Shangri-La is. It's a nightclub, yeah.

So basically most of Glastonbury shuts down until you get to this one corner, Block 9 and that is where, it's like the Raver's Paradise. So you're heading to the Raver's Paradise tonight? We hope to, yes. That's the plan. We'll see. And Bex's son, Sebastian, and his friends have said, you've got to come with us. So we feel like we've had an invite.

I've got two children here as well, who have visited us, but I'm not so sure they want us to go. Oh, really? I'm not so sure. I'm an embarrassing mum. No, cool. The best. What can you tell us about that will really sell it to someone who's never been listening I'm not so sure, I'm an embarrassing mum No, cool, the best What can you tell us about that will really sell it to someone who's never been

listening to the programme right now Just the choice, it's something for every single person there's music for all types folk music, acoustic there's a film on, if it rains you can watch movies here And do you feel as a group of women

in your 50s to 60s different, can watch movies here. And do you feel as a group of women in your 50s to 60s, sort of different doing it your way? Like how do you feel being here? Or do you just slot in? Like, I mean, I love that you got in touch with us. I think we feel unjudged. I think that's the best thing. You walk around, you don't feel whether you're in your pyjamas or you're... You've mentioned your pyjamas twice now. She's obsessed with being in her pyjamas. I'm with you. You've never walked around the town in your pyjamas. But not one person looks at you. You don't feel judged. You don't ever feel that young people are looking at you thinking, what are they doing here? It's just great. And if you start dancing, you'll dance

with anybody. And it's the one place where you can be free. Wow, that powerful comment jams. The one place you can be free. Would you agree with that? Yeah, it's so nice hearing the ladies talk. i was just thinking that like glastonbury is one of the places and i think that is so special is that age doesn't matter you can be five you can be you know 90 and still have an amazing time and everybody comes together and looks out for each other so yeah yeah i i was really actually had a great time with those three um but also i was really moved by these three women brought their children doing things their own way and they were explaining how liberated they feel. They're turning me.

That's what I want. I want to be that. We can do that. No, I was, yeah, I was like, I want to be you. I want to just have the capacity. Because you've worked so hard, you've done everything, and now this is a space where you can just do what you want. Yeah.

Dance in your pyjamas. So, Glastonbury survival tips, come on. I'm here for the duration oh i think it's important to eat like as i've been sitting here i've been eating a banana i've already had breakfast you know full english i've got a yogurt on the go i'm going to keep on grazing throughout the day yesterday i didn't live up to my tip that i'm giving to you and they got to some points why that she felt really weak and angry at people so for me it's really important um to keep on eating i would also say not too much pressure.

Don't put too much pressure to see everything and go to everything. Just sort of go with the flow. Absolutely. And tell us where people can hear you, Gems. All right. Six Music, today from 1pm and on Saturday and on Sunday. I have absolutely loved having you as my buddy on Woman's Hour. Come back any time. I would love to.

I'll come to yours as well. Like that, I'm inviting myself. She's on, she's on. i'm inviting myself that is it woman's hour at glastonbury has been a roaring success if you ask me would you agree jams thank you very much uh there's some brilliant stuff over on our socials including behind the scenes videos so if you want to find out more head to our instagram wherever you are in the world have a great weekend join weekend woman's Hour tomorrow here on Radio 4. That's it from me. I'm off to have a great time. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

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