Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour live from Lord's Cricket Ground

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Today, Woman's Hour comes live from Lord's Cricket Ground as England face New Zealand for the culmination of a five-match T20 International series. To talk us through the upcoming game we are joined by Ebony Rainford-Brent MBE. Ebony is a World Cup-winning cricketer, now turned presenter and pundit. We begin by looking at the grassroots game which is growing at a fast rate. We hear from girls at Carlton Cricket Club about why they love the sport, also from 16-year-old Honor Black who’s clothing company, Maiden, designs kit specifically for girls. We also hear again from Ebony Rainford-Brent. Ebony was the first black woman to play cricket for England and founded the African-Caribbean Engagement Programme, ACE, which creates opportunities for young cricketers to take up the game. Nuala gets a tour around the 'Home of Cricket', and the spots of most significance to women’s history at Lord's. Woman's Hour also looks at the situation for women’s cricket in 2024. How far has the sport come and what is left to do? Beth Barrett-Wild is Director of the Women’s Professional Game at the England and Wales Cricket Board and joins Nuala live. They will discuss the many successes in the women’s game but also a damning report which found that women were treated as ‘second class citizens’ in cricket and recommended that the ECB strive to ensure equal pay on average at domestic level by 2029 and at international level by 2030.Ahead of England's match against New Zealand in the culmination of the five-match T20 International series, New Zealand’s star player and former captain Suzie Bates joins Nuala to look ahead to the game and discuss women’s cricket in NZ. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce and Claire Fox

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello. Yes, Woman's Hour is live from Lord's today, the home of cricket as it is so often called. And I'm with you from the famed Test Match Special Box. So I'm high above the lush green grass off the ground in front of me. Maybe you hear a lawnmower doing the rounds by the boundary. Well, the final touches are being made ahead of a big game tonight.

The England and New Zealand women's teams meet here for the culmination of a five-match T20 international series. And we're here because of, yes, today's big match, but also to mark the 25th anniversary of women being allowed to become members of the Marlebone Cricket Club, the MCC, which runs Lords. Yep, you heard that right. It wasn't until 1999 that women were invited to join this party. So that's something we'll get into a little later on. Also coming up on the programme, I'm joined by the Director of the Women's Professional Game at the England and Wales Cricket Board.

That's Beth Barrett-Wild. Looking forward to speaking to her. I'll also take you on a tour of Lords Cricket Ground, taking in the spots most significant to women's history here. And I'll be joined by one of New Zealand's star players, that's Susie Bates. A little later this hour, we're going to speak to some girls in Scotland

about their love of cricket and the entrepreneurial 16-year-old who was just fed up of wearing hand-me-downs from the boys. So she decided to take matters into her own hands. Now, as always, if you want to get in touch with me, you can text the program 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

For WhatsApp, for a message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. But to get us started I'm joined by none other than Ebony Rainford-Brent. Ebony a judge on our Women's Hour Power List last year which decided the 30 most influential women in sport and of course she is an influential woman herself. She's a World Cup winning cricketer. She's now turned presenter and pundit. She also sits on the England and Wales cricket board. And welcome to Lord's Ebony. Or perhaps you should be welcoming me because you are much more used to being in this spot. I know, I know.

It must feel special for you. I mean, it still does always. Every time you come through the door of a major ground, a ground like Lord's, which has been here since the early 1800s, you just feel the history, don't you? And when the sun's shining when you know the the women are playing or the girls are playing later i think that whole excitement still still is there so i'm welcoming you um but i also feel the the energy and the excitement yeah so we do have blue skies overhead just a a couple of clouds a gentle breeze in front of us that beautiful green ground the pitch is

still covered where it will be played on, of course, a little bit later. I think the match begins at 6 p.m. If people are wondering about that noise in the background, there are some of the men and women that are getting this ground pristine. They're basically bombing around on something, I suppose, just do those final touches of the ground. They just use a rope just to go around the outfield. Oh, I see it.

It's a rope between the two vehicles. It just brings up all the moisture. If they've cut the grass, it just brings everything to the surface and gets it ready for later. So there's no better outfield in the world, I don't think. There's more manicured than Laws. All the little squares.

They're going at some speed, actually, just to tell our listeners. As they go, one is by the boundary and the other a significant portion in on the ground. But for those that haven't been following, perhaps, England versus New Zealand, tell us a little bit about the game that's expected to happen tonight. Yeah, England have been absolutely dominating, actually, which is a really good thing to see. There's a big World T20 t20 in bangladesh in

a few months time so both sides are trying to not only dominate the this current series but they're trying to look for their best 11 for england what's been amazing about this side is they've got so many young players coming through and heather knight the captain has been giving opportunity so we're seeing young players like laureniler, who's a fast bowler coming through. Alice Capsy's dominating. We're seeing Freya Kemp, who's a young left-hander. You know, it's just really exciting to see that England are beating a serious team like New Zealand, also playing a young crop of developing players.

So excitement ahead. And I mentioned it's a T20 match. For the uninitiated, where does that come in the spectrum of cricket? Yeah, when i normally explain cricket most people think of the test match which goes on for five days and people are like have we won yet what's going on the good news about t20 is it's short and sharp it lasts about three hours basically both sides face uh 20 overs which takes about hour 20 minutes so uh they get the 20 yeah that's the 20 bit that's what it's called t20. So they'll face 20 overs, score as many as you can,

and then the other team tries to chase it down. So it's much more fun, dynamic, and you get music and fun. Now, it wouldn't be right to be here in the Test Match Special Box without a bit of cake. And my producer, Claire, has made one especially for us, which I will now reveal as I pull off our cover and lift the lid and just to describe to our listeners I have to present this to you a layered chocolate cake chocolate buttercream icing piped chocolate flowers on top it smells absolutely delicious divine no effort spared by our producers

on woman's hour let me tell you but Ebony we're going to have some of this after the show. How come there's always cake at cricket? Well, look, this is a long history. I mean, the TMS show has been going over 60 years and just over the years, people have developed this culture of bringing in cake and genuinely it's incredible. We've got the men's test match tomorrow and you'll turn

up and people from around the country have made incredible cakes, like decorated them and it's just been a tradition so as a commentator it is the best part and I'm looking at that I haven't had breakfast and I'm thinking look this is this is going to get tucked into shortly yeah that's uh thanks very much to Claire for putting in that effort yesterday evening now I understand you did play here with England once but sadly from the bench yeah it was frustrating yeah look they're rolling up the covers on the pitch it's all the intricacies isn't it back to

you yeah so sorry yeah and um lords is one of those things that it's kind of like a bit of a mini heartbreak i was with the side uh we were here playing um i think it was india and we had i remember i was an opening baton it was between me and Caroline Atkins who was going to open. I was thinking, please let me play at Lord's. So the good news, actually, this is one thing that people say. If you don't play, but you're in the squad, the lunches and teas here are incredible. So I was gutted. I was obviously here as a sort of 12th, basically, so you're with the squad, but didn't play.

But I made sure I tucked into like a three course, a special lords lunch as a player which is actually a really special treat in the whole what is it like because when i was researching lunch at lords came up really quickly about one of these also traditions yeah it is it's really special no other ground really does it um here you get almost like a gourmet three course meal on offer as a player you don't necessarily always want to load up. That's why as a 12th, I was loving it. But you'll come in, you can have everything, salmon, you can have steak, starters, mains, dessert. It is like an incredible feast. So it's part of one of the unique things here. It doesn't happen at any other ground in the world, really, the way that Lord's does it. This is exciting. Since I've been here, we got here around 7am and now, of course, 10 past 10 and i can see every half hour more activity that is coming into the ground

obviously uh the in front of us the whole area getting prepared but now even the pitch being revealed uh some of the uh striated dark green and light green as well, straight in front of me here as we broadcast from the Test Match special box. Now, a little later in the programme, we will be speaking about the women's elite game with a woman who runs it at the England and Wales Cricket Board, as well as with New Zealand cricket star, as I mentioned, Susie Bates. But I want to talk about the next generation. Cricket is growing in Northern Ireland.

They've seen over a 250% increase in women and girls playing in the club, in a club, should I say, in the last three years. In a recent report by the ECB, it found that 717 women's and girls cricket clubs were established last year. And it's set to grow further with the government announcing a £35 million investment in the grassroots game earlier this year. In Scotland, they've got six new clubs that have started offering a women and girls program. Now in a moment we're going to hear from some girls in Scotland who play the game but I want to turn to Ebony Rainford-Brent. Ebony was the first black woman to play cricket for England. She founded the African Caribbean Engagement Programme, that's ACE, which creates opportunities for young cricketers to take up the game

and they've received a chunk of that government funding. Congratulations. Thank you. So you've been running the charity for four years now. What results have you seen? And people are wondering. Yes, the machine is just down under the box that you can hear its motor running. Go ahead, Ebony.

Yeah, no, it's been incredible. So we set it up because, firstly, there had been a particularly big stock drop-off, a decline. In the recreational game, it's less than 1% from the African-Caribbean, kind of British, black British population. And also in players. So you look at the women's game, Sophia Dunkley. I played, gosh, she's giving my age away, but it was 20 years between me and Sophia Dunkley playing for England,

who was an ex-black female. So I think what we wanted to do, both boys and girls, and also working-class communities going into inner cities, is really try and build that pipeline from schools into community hubs and then into the pathways. So we get 200 kids around the country are in academies as well that are the best from the national programme. So I mentioned your funding coming your way.

Does that change things significantly? Yeah, basically it means we can do more. We're in six cities and what it allows us to do is get more coaches. And I think when it comes to girls specifically, we have noticed you do get these major drop-offs at sort of the age of 15, 16. You do need more female coaches. So for us, what it's going to allow us to do is double down on some of that activity. The areas where the tricky points for girls are from schools to clubs usually you need a bit more support girls need a slightly different environment than the boys do so you have to have the right

coaches or right volunteers to make that transition work so we'll talk about that a little bit more as well but just talking about also the work that you're doing with the charity you have a pretty big job on your hands there ebony so you you've got, in the UK, a place where class, race, gender is intersecting and trying to make a place more accessible. I mean, that is one thing. If I say cricket, a lot of people think white, older men. I would say that's our biggest challenge for our coaches and people going into the schools is breaking down the perception.

I had that exact perception as a kid. I grew up in South East London, Herne Hill, Brixton Way. And I remember when the person said, do you want to try cricket? I was like, no, just genuinely no. And I remember seeing images of lords, but people were wearing white clothing. Blazers, the hat. No one looked like you. And I was just like, well, why would I want to play this?

But that was my exact impression until I got a chance to hit my first ball and then really get into the game. And then you realize how beautiful and simple a game it is, although it sounds complicated. So because I think I had that, a lot of my team that works nationally had that same experience. We work on breaking down those barriers to really understanding cricket is a game for everybody.

And it's really nice seeing that pick up. So you were mentioning cities as well that you are focusing on. Where are they? Yeah, London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield. And we're hoping to go into Leeds soon. Is it different depending on the city you're in? Massively different. And we know it's like the class divide as well is different.

The access is different as you go up and down the country. You know, I think the more north you get, actually, there are more cricket clubs and actually more working class access. Yeah. Whereas we find the more south you are, there's more of a class divide. When you get into sort of areas in South London and you go to Surrey and some of those areas, there's bigger class divides. So we find, you know, as you go up and down the country country we need different teams to sort of tackle some of those different layers because there was a recent report just uh in our last minute before we go to scotland for a moment um that found little had changed in the sport since previous substantive reviews into racism in cricket in 1999 so you know we come this much

further 25 years do you see that do you know honest honest answer and i've been very vocal over my career um pre and post board that i was disappointed at times about what was going on in the game and i've been very vocal and i really describe it i went from hopeless about five years ago to really hopeful and i think what's happened is the awareness within the game of we need to tackle these issues has gone through the roof and And I think the first point is awareness. And then now we're getting into the initiatives being put in. So all the charities, Chance of Shine, Lord's Tavern, ECB, MCC Foundation, everybody is now collectively working together.

And counties are aware. Everyone's building programs around it. So we're seeing rapid growth. So although historically I think cricket has been slow, the ICEC report was really important in, I think, highlighting and kind of giving a bit of a stick to the game. But actually what's happened, I think before that it already started, but now I really feel that the foot is on accelerator and I'm really proud and actually seeing the game grow quickly. So it's all about maintaining that and sustaining that well shall we hear from some girls and their experience of playing the game this is bbc reporter iona ballantine who has

been speaking to girls at carlton cricket club in the center of edinburgh i'm kira i'm 13 and i play cricket at carlton i'm elsie i'm also 13 and i play here at Carlton. And tell me, what is your favourite thing about playing cricket here? The environment, because we've got loads of friends here and that's what makes it enjoyable. And also, what other sport do you get to eat cake at half time? That's a good bonus, is that your favourite part of it? Yeah. What is it like playing cricket as a girl just now? I mean, I feel like it's no different to playing cricket as anyone else, to be honest.

I think it's a sport, you know, anyone can do it. There is, like, some differences. Like, there's been matches cancelled in the past because some other clubs don't have enough people on the team to play. But other than that, you know, it's pretty much the same. I'm Lindsay, I'm 12. I'm Abby, I'm 13. Now tell me, you're wearing a very cool cap.

It's a Lord's cap. Have you been a huge cricket fan for a long time? I have, yeah. My dad got this for me when I was seven, no, four, when he first went to Lords and he brought it back for me. And that kind of started my interest in cricket and watched a bunch of cricket matches. And then I got a chance to actually go to Lords, which is really cool. Would you like to go on to play cricket professionally? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah? If we're good enough. Probably are.

Well earlier this week I also spent time at East Kilbride Cricket Club with their head of women's and girls' cricket, Moon Moogis. East Kilbride have one of the fastest growing junior sections in the west of Scotland and several of their female juniors have featured in representative sides this summer. Remarkable when you consider Moon only founded the women's and girls section as recently as 2018. You know it becomes difficult for a girl you know when she reaches the age of 14 and a boy reaches the age of 14 so there is a difference and it is that time where the girls they are very tender emotionally. When you are 16 the the boys, cricket is entirely different as compared to girls.

They can't play with boys. So then I saw the huge gap and then I thought, you know, I have to give it a go. For you with some of the younger girls that you coach now and that you have in the team, what do you have to do to make sure that you retain them and don't lose them? Motivation is the first key, I would say. And when you have such an atmosphere where your senior players are there to motivate you, are there to back you, then the younger girls, they feel really, really comfortable in that particular environment. This is a major, major reason we are able to retain the girls,

because they know when they go there, first of all, they're not being judged. And if they do any mistakes, everybody comes and cheer them up. That's really namogous there, ending that report by Iona Ballantyne. Thanks very much to them. So interesting to hear that, Ebony, isn't it? Coming back to keeping teenage girls motivated and not dropping out at those 14, 15, 16. How do you do it? Yeah, look, it was really good to hear that piece there, actually.

And I got emotional listening to the girls. I think the key is you do have to create a very different environment for girls. You have to create more of a safe space, community safe space, where young girls are going through so much transition, mentally, physically um where their place is in the world and you need to create somewhere where they feel that they can come and

be themselves um interact like she was talking about being motivated supported um whereas sometimes the boys you create more of a competitive edge and and it's you know they will come whether their friend comes or not with the girls you need to make sure that they're all enjoying and feeling supported so you do create different environments and if you get it right it's amazing to see that them flourish through that and then become leaders within the game within their sport within their community so it's such a tricky age and we have to spend a lot of time on that that transition what do you think is the trickiest is it 14 15 when is it you see people drop that's the that's the drop 14 15 so interesting and of course a 14 year old girl is completely different in development to a 14-year-old boy, right?

100%. Mentally, physically, etc. Ebony, Rainford Brent, thank you. It's been such a pleasure. No worries. I want some of that cake, guys. I will hold you to that. You know, while we were listening to Scotland, we saw New Zealand star Susie Bates making her way across the cricket ground. So I'm looking forward to speaking to her a little bit later as well. But let's stay on teenage girls for a bit.

I'm joined here by one who loves cricket and has turned her frustrations with the game into a business idea. It's 16-year-old Honor Black. And her and her sister Kat have created their own sports clothing range aimed at girls who play cricket. It's called Maiden and they launched earlier this year. Good morning, Anna. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Welcome to Lords. Anna, it's great to be here.

How does it feel looking out? Pretty insane. It looks just magnificent. That is a really good word. And now it's actually got really quiet. You know, we heard all the various lawn equipment previously in the machines there was people running back and forth it's silent it is the calm before the storm of the t20 a little bit later and I want to talk to you about motivation

as well of teenage girls but before all that let's talk about your clothing line and maiden why did you want to start it exactly I think I was just so fed up in playing in old boys kit. I'd been playing since I was about six years old. And every single time I went to training or by chance matches, it was always in my brother's kit. And my brother's younger than me. So wearing my younger brother's kit to a match just felt completely wrong. And I think it was just years and years of complaining by me and my sister.

And eventually my dad was a bit fed up. He kind of just went, do you know what? Stop talking to me about it. Go figure it out. Do something about it. And me and Kat were like, all right then, you know, let's do it. So we brainstormed, had some ideas, did some research, brought it to my dad and he was like right i'm ready to

back you go on take it places so he was ready to invest in you and go for it and how's it going now really well well i mean you know what's the difference for you if you're wearing clothing that is specifically for girls as opposed to the hand-me-downs from boys for your brother well i mean i think it's I would assume that it's kind of obvious in terms of it's just ill-fitted the sleeves on the boys on the boys shirts is so much longer in some like some cases it was covering my elbows so I could barely like throw a ball because it would hook the trousers were just super kind of heavy and uncomfortable and they drag at the bottom and not only that the main problem for me was how see-through the the kit was on me uh-huh because while I'm wearing

pants or bras or whatever it is you can see the kit and I mean I can't speak for boys but I would say boys are less self-conscious about that they don't so much mind if like their pants show through underneath whereas girls having you know their bra showing through while they're you know standing on the boundary is just not what you want to see it makes them feel uncomfortable and is a reason I think why girls don't want to be playing the sport and why did you get into cricket my brother I mean I hate to say it but my brother played at Barnes Cricket Club um in London and I was just like do you know I'm bored I've got've got a free Saturday. Can I can I go join? My dad was like, yeah, of course. So he showed up there. I had one day there and I was the only girl amongst 40 boys. And I came back and I was like, I never want to go back again. That was so intimidating.

But he was like, you know, just stick with it, you know, try it out, see if it goes somewhere. And I did. And actually, I really loved it. It's interesting to hear you say that, isn't it? Picking up on what Ebony was saying saying that you have to create the right environment and it can be a different to a more masculine environment but you obviously had the stamina or the determination some support to stay with it but you've probably heard of other girls your age a little younger dropping out. I mean as I we moved out of London and when I went to my prep school there was no girls cricket available for my first year there I was playing rounders and I'd never really been

a big fan of rounders cricket was always my summer sport and so I spoke to the school me and a couple of friend of mine friends of mine who loved cricket as well and we were just like this is ridiculous either get us a girls team or allow us to be playing with the boys and at that age I think it was still kind of okay you weren't really as differently developed at that stage and so we were playing with boys teams um right up until I left in year eight and then I came to my uh secondary school now and there was a girls team and I was like wow this is great I'm actually finally playing school matches with girls but yeah yeah, at my prep school, it was just boys matches every weekend. And it was a bit,

some weekends I was kind of like, oh. It wasn't your thing. You're going to stay with us, because you're going to put a question to another woman who's here, Bette Barrett-Wild, from the ECB.

But just really quickly, as the sun shines down on that green cricket ground, would you like to play here one day? I would love to if i'm lucky enough well you're going to stay with us thanks very much good to have you with us here on woman's hour as we broadcast if you're wondering it sounds a little bit different yeah because we are live from lords for woman's hour today ahead of a t20 between england and

new zealand starting at 6pm this evening. I was actually able to come here, not last Monday, the Monday before, and visit this ground. And you can feel the history of this place as you walk around. I wanted to understand more about the role of women here, both today, we're hearing some of that, but also in the past. And I heard about Baroness Rachel Hayhoe Flint. I also heard about Martha Grace, the mother of a player

who's considered one of the all-time greats, WG Grace. My tour guide was Rachel Pagan, and she met me just outside the ground. So we haven't actually gone through the gates yet. We're going to bring our Women's Hour listeners with us in a moment. But in front of us is a bust of a very important lady. That's right. Rachel Hayhoe Flint, Baroness Hayhoe Flint as she became, who was captain of the England women's team actually for their first ever match here in 1976,

but also went on to do huge amounts for women's cricket. And this is the gate named after her. That is quite an honour at Lord's. Yes, there are two gates named after cricketers. There's this gate here, the Hayhoe Flint Gate, and just along the road is the Grace Gates, named for WG. But I would say that that's also inspired by a woman because his mother, Martha, coached him

and his brothers had three sons go on to play test cricket. So women all around here, really. But that's probably not what people first expect when they think about Lords. I mean, it took a long time for women to actually manage to make it onto that revered pitch. That's right. So although MCC was founded in 1787, our first women's international match at Lords didn't take place here until 1976. Then in terms of members and MCC membership, we didn't get our first women members until 1999.

Let's stop there for a second. 1999, so we're literally 25 years on. That's right. So the MCC members in 1998, after a bit of a false start, they then decided, yes, we do want to welcome women to MCC membership after all. And how significant was Barnas Hayhoe Flint in that achievement? Totally pivotal, really. She applied for, well, she was nominated for membership and was told, no, you can't. And then she was one of the first 10 women who became Honorary Life members in 1999. How many women members are there now? Just under a thousand female members now of various different stripes.

But as we have a ceiling on the number of full members that we can have... Is it 18,000? Just over that. But that means that we operate on a one-out, one-in for our full members. Right, through we go. And into the hallowed cricket ground off Lord's. So here we come to the Harris Garden. How would you describe the Harris Garden?

It's a green space with some pretty impressive gates leading into it, a flint wall at the back of it, but really the thing it most resembles is a disused tennis court, a lawn tennis court, and that's because it is. Oh! So we've walked into the Harris Garden. We are on the cement pavers, but you can't help but notice a black disc in the ground,

a plaque to the women's ashes that is written in gold, that they were created on this site. Rachel? The plaque was installed in 2023, last year, really to mark the 25th anniversary of the women's ashes being created in this actual garden in 1998. How were they created? Well they were created by the burning of some items which were then put into a large wooden cricket ball. The items were a bale and a copy of the rules of the Women's Cricket Association. And the bale being one of the little sticks that's at the top of the stump that we see at cricket matches.

That's right. The three stumps and the two bales on top mark a wicket. And it was quite an unusual creation because they got the bail and the WCA rules and then what do we do with them? And suddenly we were casting about and from the kitchen suddenly there came a wok. And so they were burned in a wok on this spot. I've just entered the pavilion. It is a beautiful building.

Lots of polished wood and brass steps making their way up through the building. And there are many, many portraits. This is Sir Vivian Richards, for example. But most of the portraits are of men. We're going to see one of a woman. As you come out of the England dressing room and walk down towards the long room, it's right in front of you,

it's one of the first things that you see when you leave the dressing room, and it's a portrait of Clare Taylor, a magnificent batter for England, and who actually holds the record here for the highest one-day international score, and that's men or women. She scored 156, not out,

in an amazing partnership, actually, with Caroline Atkins. Painting, she looks deep in thought. She is a very thoughtful woman, a very inspirational woman. I have been privileged to know her for quite some time. She's now our chair of cricket and she sits on the MCC committee. And on occasion when I attend those meetings, we usually sit together. So it's really just a fantastic honour for me to do that. But also I would say she's someone who very much sees her role

in inspiring people to pick up a bat and play. So we're going to leave the pavilion. Through the double doors here, I can see the green cricket ground, and I can also see it's a little bit of a grey sky overcast, and I'm going to ask Meg Ley, the groundskeeper here, how she manages that and everything else. So I've sat down in the mound stand and it's spitting rain a little bit. It's stopped right now, but somebody who's watching the weather very closely is Meg Ley. She is one of the few

female groundskeepers here, or sports turf professional, as they're also known. How did you end up here, Meg? I mean, it's a pretty rare role for a woman to get. Yeah, it's a crazy story, really. I'm just from a farm in the middle of nowhere in New Zealand and came over to England a couple of years ago. Found myself without a job and ended up working at Gloucestershire County Cricket Club. So I did two pretty amazing years there, and then a job popped up at Lourdes, which never happens. It's such a great place to work. And, yeah, when that job popped up at Lourdes, which never happens.

It's such a great place to work. And yeah, when that job came up, I had to go for it and I was lucky enough to get it. But this is so male dominant, particularly the part of Lourdes that you're taking care of. Yeah, I mean, the fact that Lourdes has been around for 210 years and not only, you know, am I the first woman closely followed by my colleague Emma Lynch there haven't been women even applying for these roles so we want to generate interest in it it's such a great job and there needs to be more women here wanting to do it I mean women's sports on the rise so much and we need to be able to facilitate that properly so the obvious solution is getting more women into these roles. I can see lots of smiles you're a woman that loves your job how do you

cope on a day like today we're looking out on the pitch or grounds, should I say, beautiful and green. We can already see the stratified layers of the dark and lighter green, but there is also a potential cover coming over. How do you manage with English weather? It's a real challenge. Sometimes there's a downpour that will last five minutes and that's enough to write off a game at some ground. So yeah, the weather's a huge challenge and that's enough to write off a game at some ground so yeah the weather's a huge challenge and you've you've got to embrace getting a bit damp every now and then is there anything that you've specifically noticed being a woman in this role anything surprising perhaps not really I mean it's it's a very physical job you do have to be fit but there's

no reason why any woman couldn't do that. And yeah, I mean, I wouldn't do a day where I do less than 30,000 steps. So it's full on. So a little earlier, there was rain and you immediately sprung into action with your colleagues. What were you doing? Yeah, so it's really important that we cover the pitch and square as early as we can. The outfield's all sand based, and so that can take quite a lot of water, whereas the square is clay, so we need to cover that as quickly as possible,

especially the test pitch. And so, yeah, we started up the hover cover, and that takes quite a bit of effort to push. It usually takes four or five of us. And then we rolled out the sausages, and that covered... The sausages? I suppose it's kind of like the inside of toilet paper. It just rolls out and covers the square quite nicely.

And what do the gang back in New Zealand think of it all? Everyone's pretty stoked. None of them are quite sure how I've managed to get to Lords. I've watched games of cricket here since I was a little kid on the TV. And so to actually be here, it's pretty amazing. And yeah, I think mum and dad are pretty proud. Hope to bring them here one day. What about the England-New Zealand match that's coming up between the women?

Oh, I can't wait. Who are you supporting? New Zealand, of course. Of course. I can't say anything else, can I? I've got a few ex-teammates playing and a couple of girls I used to play against. And so, yeah, I'll be really rooting for the Kiwis for sure. Ha-ha.

Meg Lay finishing that report there. Thank you to her and my guide, Rachel Pagan. I can actually see Meg right in front of me. She is in the centre of the pitch. She's on one of those heavy rollers. She's leaning over and rolling the pitch, getting ready for the match tonight. Thanks so much to her.

Thanks to you for getting in touch with me. Let me see, here's an email from Helen. Really enjoying your women's cricket special at secondary school back in the 80s. My friend and I were desperate to play cricket, but we're told it was a boys' sport and stick to hockey. Fast forward to the present day. It's wonderful to see how far women's cricket has come. Also, Fiona listening in Dorset.

What a lovely treat to listen today from the TMS. That's right. And from their box. Love listening to TMS team on the radio. I don't necessarily understand all the cricket rules, but still very much enjoy it and all the banter. 84844 if you want to get in touch with Woman's Hour. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Let us talk a little bit more about the situation for women's cricket in 2024. Just how far has the

sport come? There have been many successes. The introduction of the 100, 100 ball cricket tournament in 2021. That saw men and women's cricket played on the same day and for the same prize money. The expansion of the Women's Premier League in India, we've spoken about that on the programme. That saw players' salaries skyrocket. And earlier this year, Nat Saivar-Brunton became the first England cricketer to be named best player in the world.

So that sounds really good. However, a report from June last year, conducted by the Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket, or the ICEC, you might have heard Ebony mention it, said that women were treated as second-class citizens in cricket and recommended that the ECB strive to ensure equal pay on average at domestic level by 2029 and international level by 2030 which isn't really that far away for either of those deadlines. Bette Barrett-Wild is Director of the Women's Professional Game at the England and Wales Cricket Board at the ECB and joins me now.

Welcome back to Women's Hour. Thank you so much. Great to be back. How much fun to be here today. Yeah, absolutely. It is, I think everybody said, what a special place Lourdes is. I've been fortunate actually to work here

for over 10 years now, whether at the MCC or more recently at ECB. But it's still a very incredible place to come through each day. Well, you're the perfect person to ask. What is your assessment of how the women's game is now? Yeah, look, I think we've touched on it. We're in a really exciting growth phase. I think the last five years in particular, actually, we've seen transformational growth across women and girls game. And I think there's been lots of inputs to that and touched on the impact of the 100.

So that new 100 ball competition launched in 2021, which positioned the men and women on the same stage playing for the same prize money. I think that really has helped to shift perceptions about what cricket is and who it's for. And I know we've talked a lot about how we need to change those perceptions about the game. And I think that is doing an incredible job there.

And then everything within the international arena as well. I think England women's success on the global stage and then all the way through to the grassroots so we've had some incredible stories already this morning about that participation base and how that is growing it's all part of that collective ecosystem. So how do you understand that characterisation of women being treated as second-class citizens when it comes to cricket from the IEC report? Yeah, I think historically the game has been a very male-dominated environment. I think Anna said this morning, you know, when she talks about when she joined her club, she was the only girl in those environments. And that was the same for me. And I think that's probably the same for

a lot of women who started out in the game over sort of the recent past but that is changing and we're working incredibly hard we have an ambition as a sport to be the UK's most inclusive sport and I think most inclusive sport that's what we're going for absolutely and do you have a deadline on that it's a long journey like I think there's we're working incredibly hard I think Ebony touched on the the point around whilst obviously it's sort of yeah heartbreaking to read some of the testimony within the ICC reports, I think it's been an opportunity to really shine a light on some of the challenges that we're facing into. And we're investing heavily, I think in particular with regards to the Women and Girls Game, which I'm responsible for. We're investing all the way through the grassroots and trying to grow that participation base.

We're seeing the number of Women and Girls Clubs across the the country increasing year on year 20% growth from 22 to 23 and then all the way through to professional game which is what I am directly responsible for and the investment there. Let's talk about that we're here at Laura's Cricket Crowd as I have mentioned a number of times but there is the game tonight would you like to see the England women's team play here more regularly? Oh absolutely and I think I'm just chatting so Susie's in the box with us now here. I actually... She is, hi Susie! I would come to you in just a moment. But I was asking her how many times that she'd played at Lords and she actually said quite frequently now so whether it be sort of on the international stage so we see at least one game per season being played here at Lords England women's team but I think in particular through the 100s and this being the home base for London Spirit those matches

are becoming more and more frequent. And I think that will only grow over time. So we've talked about the 100, we've talked about T20. Let's talk about Test Match. So the ECB has promised that Lords will host a women's Test Match for the first time, but not until 2026. Like, why is that?

Particularly, I was looking that boys, private schools, Eaton and Harrow are invited to play a game here each year. Yeah, I think women's test cricket, we're not in the same place at the moment in terms of professional maturity for the women's game as we are in the men's game. What does that mean, professional maturity? So the women's game has only most recently become professional. So we're in the sort of nascent stages of that. So from a domestic perspective, we launched our women's game has only most recently become professional. So we're in the sort of nascent stages of that. So from a domestic perspective, we launched our women's regional professional structure in 2020.

So that is four years in the making now. We're making huge strides in that space. And with regards to the women's team, I think I remember when I joined the ECB actually back in 2014, writing the press release to announce the first wave of professional contracts for that team. So that's only 10 years old. So we are behind the men's game in that regard but like I said we're investing heavily. I think with regards to test cricket I think if you ask any of the international players would they like to play more of it they absolutely would. I think we do however need to be cognizant of where we are in that growth trajectory and I think at the moment the formats which are going to help to accelerate

growth in particular from an audience perspective are the shorter formats. And I think at the moment, the formats which are going to help to accelerate growth, in particular from an audience perspective, are the shorter formats. And is that what it comes down to, bums on seats? I think a big part of it is, yeah, absolutely. I think we need to grow the audience. I think we need to scale that audience. I think initiatives and sort of opportunities like the hundreds, we had 310,000 people come through to watch women's matches in that competition last year. It's been in existence for three years. And I think we've had over 850,000 watch those women's games. So that is coming.

There is an audience there for it now. We need to make more opportunities to put it on the big stage. That's why moments such as this evening with the standalone IT20 are so important. And I think we're expecting another really big crowd for that. But it's with that audience growth. That's what's going to help lead into that commercialisation of the sport. So with going back to the 100, instead the competitions that you're giving,

as you mentioned, equal weight to the women and men's competitions, most of them are double headers, same venue, same day, equal prize money for both competitions. But some might ask about the fairness of the men's game going second. So the men get the prime time slot and the women are more like a support act. What would you respond? Oh, I don't think that's the case at all. I think we see now the crowds there arriving on time. And when I say on time, that means the start of the women's match. I think we're seeing big crowds from the start. I think with regards to the format and the way around the fixtures go,

I think it works really nicely. And I think, again, we just need to be cognizant as to where we are with that growth. So explain that to me. What do you think would happen if the women were second? Are you afraid people might leave? Not necessarily afraid. I think we have tried it. We had an occasion last year when we had the

women playing second and we did see a proportion of the crowd leave and i think that's you know that's something that we do need to be realistic and mindful of actually in terms of the pace at which we're growing and making sure that we're creating the right conditions um to to create a sort of a thriving atmosphere and an exciting atmosphere. So I think we've come a very, very, very long way in the last five years. I think, like I said, I've been at the UCB for 10 years now. And if you look back even in 2019, so we had the Women's Ashes in 2023. In 2019, I think the total attendance for that Women's Ashes series was around 35,000. In 2023, when we hosted Australia last summer, we had over 122,000 people coming

through to watch those games. So we are seeing exponential growth. And now is the time, however, to double down on that. We're not going to rest on our laurels. And I think in terms of the 100 and the double headers, they have been transformational in terms of creating that platform. Just one quick one, staying with the 100 and the ICEC report. It found total spend on women's salaries in the 100 was 25% of what was spent on men's salaries. When you hear that, what's going through your head? Yeah, look, there is a gender pay gap there. And I think we've always been very transparent about that. We're very proud that we offer equal prize money because that is a real symbol of the value in terms of the two competitions.

It's a totemic. But to make that leap from prize money to salary? So again, that comes back to the audience. So we need to create the commercial conditions to make that sustainable. At the moment, I think the men's game is what brings the scale. But one of the phrases I use a lot about the 100 and why it's unique, actually, with the men and the women together. So whilst the men's game brings the scale to the 100,

the women bring the soul. And those two things work symbiotically together you gotta have soul i want to bring honor back in our 16 year old uh cricket lover and also entrepreneur because she also has a question for you i would just like to ask that if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in women's sport women's cricket more specifically what do you think you'd change crikey that is a big question that's great she put me out of a job um and i think this is coming i think there is a point here around the leadership in the game and the prioritization of women's cricket within those discussions and i think that is changing um i know, for example, through the game, from a board perspective across our county partners,

I think 34% of those board members are female now, and that's gone up from 11% in 2019. So that is changing. It's having more female leaders in the game and female decision makers in the game is going to be really important. And then that leads into conversations like kit and making sure that those um that's

being thought about um in the in the conversation first and foremost so i think um privatization um leadership um and ultimately investment like we just need to keep doubling down on our investments and uh we are yeah we are definitely doing that thanks very much honor just one of our yeah great question one of our guests here at our women's hour special from the test match special uh box and that is beth barrett wall director of the women's professional game at england and wales cricket board quick thing beth which actually i'm going to actually throw this question to our next guest as well just just ponder this one just think about it why don't the england women's cricket team have a nickname i'm going to leave that with you and leave with honor and continue um about the england women's team they have proved dominant

and uh we're just kind of wondering what might it be like a little later on here because i'm joined by a big star in our studio she's taken some time out of her preparation today, which is amazing to join us. It's New Zealand player and former captain Susie Bates. Last year, Susie became the first New Zealand player to appear at 150 one-day internationals, only the fourth woman in the world to reach this landmark. She is part of, as I can see on her shirt, the White Ferns. You've got a nickname for your team. Welcome. Good morning. Thank nickname for your team. Welcome.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us. How are you feeling about this evening? Yeah, excited now. I'm sitting up here looking at the ground. It looks an absolute picture. And I think having Meg down there and a Kiwi influence on the wicket, hopefully that brings some good vibes.

Obviously, we've struggled a little bit to compete consistently against England this tour, but a game at Lourdes, it's sort of another new opportunity. We've talked about that as a group. Every game's been a new opportunity for us to get better, and England are challenging us in many ways, and we've got a 2020 World Cup coming up,

so it's that big-picture focus. But one last push here at Lourdes, which, as a cricketer, you don't get many opportunities, and it's a lot of our players' first time here. And so what does it mean to play here? I know you've done it before. Yeah, it's hard to explain. You sort of, you hear about Lords a lot and, you know, it's the home of cricket globally.

And when you come in the history that it represents, it is special. I think in the past, if I'm'm completely honest as a female cricketer you have felt like a little bit of intruder at this place whereas I think in the last couple of years like Beth mentioned through the hundred playing here a lot more and having a female grounds woman you feel a lot more welcome and that's really special because I think in the past it perhaps was a little bit of a token gesture. And now you're fully immersed in the Lord's experience and having lots of New Zealand family and friends here. They got to do the tour the other day and they love being a part of it too.

So what sorts of changes have you seen in New Zealand women's cricket since your career began? That was 2006. How long have we got? We've got time. Yeah, it's been a journey and um now to have 17 professional female cricketers in the country um compared to where we started i was 18 and everyone was completely amateur we had police women we had teachers we had people working as vets we had people studying you had people working as vets, we had people studying, you had two tours a year, it was almost like a hobby.

Because I've heard that also from Brooke Halliday, which is another member on your team that has spoken about professionalism and training, and that a lot of women working full-time as well as playing for the New Zealand national team. I mean, how does that change? Yeah, well, by having 17 players that can fully commit to cricket, that allows those 17 players to train as much as they can and get the resource to become as good as they can be. And they don't have to balance the work cricket lifestyle. And when we tour, everyone's available out of that 17.

I think the next step for New Zealand cricket like we've seen in England and Australia is to grow that pool of professional cricketers so we have more than 17 because it's not that money no it's not and when I go back to domestic cricket I'm a professional cricketer and there's 17 others but we're playing against semi-professionals so the level playing field as soon as you get more professionals competing against each other the standard the competition for spots grows and I think that's what England and Australia have shown recently right so you kind of have England and Australia the money put in the investment that's there or whatever maybe professional maturity even though Bette was saying maybe it's not where she wants to see it just yet it's still perhaps ahead of where New

Zealand is at the moment and it's I suppose ahead of where New Zealand is at the moment. And it's, I suppose, trying to get New Zealand onto the next level. Do you feel the will is there for the investment? Like, how do you change those minds to try and get people watching and also investing? Yeah, absolutely. The will is there. And, you know, we've made a lot of changes. And to even have those 17 professional contracts and the resources around that is a big step to where we started.

But our population size compared to England and Australia, the resource, the money that we have available is still limited. And so it's how we can spend that, I guess, as smartly as we can. So I was thinking this, and I heard that argument last night. But I was like, I'm from a small country as well, I'm from Ireland, we're pretty comparable. And then I was like, hang on a second, when it comes to the men's rugby, there's no problem either in Ireland or in New Zealand

of having that investment. Yeah, and like Beth said, the commercial value that we have, and that's becoming more and more, like the games that are on TV, and I know we're on free to air TV in New Zealand now and the more viewers that we have we've you know we are growing the game but it just takes a while to see the benefits of having professional players and having more eyes on the game it's taken probably five to ten years over in England and I experienced a lot of county cricket in Hampshire

a long time ago well it feels a long time ago but you know they were where New Zealand is at now and now five six years later they've seen the benefits so we're probably just in that phase where we haven't quite seen the benefits of the investment but exciting to be part of that change oh 100% it's yeah it's kept me in the game just every year there's something new new. There's something growing. There's more competitions. There's just something exciting to be a part of. You know, also what I was reading and surprised at is that New Zealand women haven't played a test match since 2004. And for those who don't follow cricket that closely, it's an international multi-day match seen as the pinnacle of sport with the red ball. How come? day match seen as the pinnacle of sport with the red ball um how come yeah i i don't know all the

answers but i know some of the answers that have been given to me because obviously in my long career there hasn't been a test match and yeah because you've got this line it was just before right before you started was the last one and in new zealand, we only play 50 over cricket or 20 over cricket domestically. And I know that's similar in England and Australia. But I guess with the limited resource that we have currently, they see more bang for their buck in the 20 over and 50 over format and invested in our players to play more of that, be better than that, because that's where the pinnacle events are based.

So it comes down to resource and time and money, and they've made decisions that test match is probably not our priority right now. We need to prepare our players for 50 over and 20 over cricket, rather than one-off test matches that aren't actually part of a bigger picture, whereas England and Australia have created the Ashes format, and I know other teams are starting to play that, and I'm still hopeful I might not be there but I'm still hopeful that that may come in the future once the growth of

the global women's game starts to get more and more traction that you know the boards see value in that but we know in the men's game even test cricket is is not surviving in certain countries so it's not just just women's cricket It's probably the smaller nations with less resource. And Beth Bartwald is still here with us. It's interesting, though, isn't it, Beth, hearing Susie speak? And you do want the game, the women's game, to progress at a similar pace. Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, for the game to sort of generate that commercial value,

it needs to be compelling. It needs to be competitive. it needs to have jeopardy it needs to be exciting and I think we want to see all nations around the world be competitive on the field. I think we're very fortunate here in England to be able to have

sort of maybe a slightly more mature cricket economy which means we can afford to invest in the women's domestic structure in particular and I think Susie alluded to it there. I think the women's test cricket question is a really big one, because I think ultimately to support that, you need a market that wants to watch it and then an infrastructure in terms of the domestic structure that can develop those players to play in it. And we're starting to develop that. But we need nations to play against. that is so so important I want

to come back to Susie Bates star of the New Zealand team you've reached the landmark of 150 ODIs as they say one day internationals racking up more than 5,000 runs in the format there was a journalist that wrote that you've done almost everything on the cricketing field have you field. Have you? That's why I'm still here. Haven't won a World Cup, played I think 2010 the final here before the men's game and we managed to not score enough runs

in that game but yeah and obviously a test match but it is a really difficult one because I haven't known any cricket longer than 50 over in my whole career I think back in the day when I played men's club cricket we played two-day cricket where one Saturday you played and the game flowed on to the next Saturday but I only took part in one of those days so yeah you have I guess a little bit of envy when I watch the ashes of you know players

that are playing the same sport as you that have those opportunities and you you wonder what it would be like but I also understand the structure of New Zealand cricket and you can't quite see the purpose of that whereas when you're in the Ashes series they're able to play three four-day warm-up matches because they're all professional they've got the resource to support that and play against each other and it's part of a bigger series which the Ashes is an entertaining,

I guess, product in itself. So, yeah, I do wonder about it but I also don't lose much sleep and, you know, at my age, less time on the field is probably not a bad thing. Well, you look very fit and healthy to me. How are you feeling about tonight? Yeah, excited.

It's been a tough series and, you know, we've had to pick ourselves up, but we keep doing that and we had a really fun run around, played some football and I'm just really excited for the girls that have never experienced Lorde. Lorde's, we know it'll be a massive crowd, so you can't wait for the last game of the series. Amazing. Beth, you're looking forward to it as well. Very much so.

Lots of people getting in touch. Here's one. Kirstie in Lancaster. So great to hear you coming from Lourdes today. I was one of the first women allowed to join Middlesex County Cricket Club in my own right, and not half of a couple. There were parts of Lourdes still not open to women at that point. Apart from the Queen, she was always able to come.

Being two women's T20 off to a hundreds evening soon, women absolutely belong in cricket to a hundreds evening soon. Women absolutely belong in cricket and at Lords. Couldn't have said it any better myself. Can we think, I think I'm going to have to put it out to the listeners, 84844, like even after the programme messages. We need a nickname for the

women's team. Do you not think? We have the Roses, we have the Lionesses. We do, we do. It's actually a conscious decision at the moment. So it's just a strategic decision to be able to co-position our England men and England women directly alongside each other.

So that's the tact we're taking. So if it works for one, it's going to have to also work for the other. Listen, it's been so wonderful having you. Best of luck tonight, Susie. Susie Bates from the New Zealand team.

We really appreciate it. And Beth Barrett-Wild as well. Just two of our guests as we broadcast here from Lourdes. What a day. I want to thank all my guests, of course, and those of you who got in touch to check out our socials

for a behind-the-scenes video of our time here. I want to let you know also about Listener Week coming up next month. Maybe something that has piqued your interest, that you want to happen on air.

This is the place to do it. 84844 at BBC Women's Hour is another way to get in touch. It's something that I really love when I get your ideas and we're able to transform them and put them on air and share them, of course, with the big, huge community, diverse as it is with Woman's Hour. So if you have an idea that you think we should all be thinking about and talking about, it can be sport, politics, escapism and fun. Do that. Anita will be with you tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Natalie Cassidy. And I'm Joanna Page. Now you might know me as Sonia from EastEnders. And Stacey from Gavin and Stacey. And while sometimes we are on the telly,

mostly we just love watching it. So that's what we're talking about in our podcast, Off the Telly. We're chatting about shows we just can't miss and the ones that aren't quite doing it for us. That comfort telly we can't get enough of. And things we know we shouldn't watch but we just can't help ourselves. And we'll be hearing about all the telly you think we should be watching and talking about too.

No judgement here. Well, a bit. Join us for Off the Tell here. Well, a bit. Join us for Off The Telly. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.