Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour live from the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival in Sheffield

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

Joining Nuala McGovern and Anita Rani on stage is Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty, host of the BBC Podcast Fame Under Fire, which focuses on celebrity court cases. Anoushka talks to Nuala about how attitudes to women in high profile trials, such as the trial of P Diddy, influence culture. They are in conversation with Dr Kathryn Higgins who has written about misogyny in the media in her book Believability: Sexual Violence, Media, and the Politics of Doubt. When award-winning poet and author Helen Mort became a stepmother, she went in search of some literary role models, but was sadly disappointed. From the fairytale ‘wicked queen’ to the put-upon parent of the modern blended family. She talks to Anita about writing her new collection, Stepmother, which explores the origins of these maligned female archetypes alongside her own real-life experiences. Lisa Lloyd is a campaigner for SEND children and the author of the best-selling book Raising the SENBetweeners. Following her own diagnosis with autism in her forties, Lisa explains how becoming a mother led her to discover she was autistic, and the challenges of parenting when you’re neurodivergent. Lisa is joined by Prof Megan Freeth from Sheffield University’s Autism Research Lab, who explains how autistic women can experience motherhood. And Nuala and Anita are also joined by Sheffield sportswoman Vanessa Ellis, head coach of the Sheffield Hatters Women’s Basketball Team. She explains how she’s followed in the footsteps of her mother, Betty Cadona, who set up women’s Basketball in Sheffield in 1961.Presenters: Anita Rani and Nuala McGovern Producer: Olivia Skinner Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com.

He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award, He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to this very special edition of Women's Hour live from the Cross Twires Podcast Festival. I'm Nula McGovern. And I'm Anita Rani and we are at the Montgomery Theatre in Sheffield and we are joined by a live audience of 400 people. Nula, I'm going to start by welcoming you to God's own country.

Nula's first time in Sheffield! That's right. What a way to come to Sheffield and have the warmest of welcomes from the 400 people that are sitting opposite us here, Anita. Indeed. And we've got loads of fantastic guests and conversations coming up, as usual. Today on the programme, we're going to hear about misogyny in celebrity court cases and the wider impact that they can have on women.

The poets, Helen Moore, will be talking about her new book, Stepmother, which explores the archetype of stepmothers in our culture, alongside her own experiences of being a stepmom. And, of course, as usual, we would like to hear your experiences too this morning. So get in touch in the usual way. You can text the program on 84844. You can WhatsAppers on 0300-100-444. You can email the program by going to our website.

And of course, you can visit us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. So also this hour, we're going to hear from Lisa Lloyd. She's a campaigner for autistic children who has recently found out that she's also autistic. And we've got a local legend. Sportswoman Vanessa Ellis, coach of the Sheffield Hatters women's basketball team

who have had a very successful season. Indeed. Now, let us turn to a topic of the day. Pubs in England and Wales will now be allowed to stay open until 5am on Monday morning, allowing football fans to watch the Three Lions World Cup clash with Mexico to the final whistle. So the adults are okay, but what about the children? With the match starting at 1 a.m. on a school night, there's likely to be some high-level lobbying and negotiating going on in many households this weekend. The team's head coach Thomas Tuchel has said parents should write an excuse for school and let them watch.

But the Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, has urged parents to make sure their children go to school. Here she is on BBC's Newsnight last night. I'll be making sure that my kids get into school on the Monday, whatever we decide about watching the football. And I just ask parents to, you know, I'm not going to make requests on parents around bedtime. They can decide what's best for their family. But please, let's try and get our kids in on the Monday, too. Well, to discuss this further is Kate Silverton, Broadcaster, Child Therapist and best-selling author of There's No Such Thing as Nauty.

Morning, Kate, welcome. Good morning, how lovely to see you all. You too. We're missing you here in Sheffield. Is this a bit of an own goal for parents, letting them stay up? Well, the own goal is going to depend on a child's age and weather and how well they can tolerate disrupted sleep. But really, these type of events can serve as an incredible bonding experience for families, and it can be really helpful just to remember that children don't need perfect routines every single day.

They need secure relationships. So parent-child relationships can be strengthened by the excitement of breaking the routine together. But there are always consequences, especially when it comes to children and disrupted sleep. Well, tell us a bit more about that. Just how problematic is one night of disruption? It's one night. So it's very unlikely to cause lasting harm. in an otherwise well-rested child.

Sleep is fundamental, though, for emotional regulation, learning and attention. So we mustn't dismiss it. But as I say, one night, you know, the upside of having that incredible, let's hope, incredible experience or whichever way it goes, breaking that routine and being with our parents can actually outweigh that one night of disrupted sleep. Being with your parents and then, of course, being part of the shared experience with friends at school the next day. Yeah, I mean, look, shared joy strengthens relationships.

It's an incredible glue. So whether we're watching together, celebrating and or commiserating together, build the all-important emotional connection between adults and kids with their friends. So it's also a chance for us, if we're regulated, to model emotional resilience, i.e. how well we cope with excitement, how high we can go, and also the lows, and share that together because we're modelling something really important there for our kids, which is emotional regulation. So whether you get that right on Sunday or the early hours of the morning,

that's for the adults in the room to start thinking about because that's really, really important. We can't blame our kids if the wheels come off because they're tired and I don't want to say disappointed because let's hope they won't be. But it's really important that we remain grounded. I was going to say, some of the adults' wheels might have fallen off if there's disappointment. We did a bit of a poll in the audience before we came on air, and about a third of the audience are in the no camp, the hard no camp.

I saw that, you're Mizzogs. So if that is you, how can you support your child if all their friends have been watching? Well, if you're really against doing it, or actually if you don't want to stay up yourself. Okay, well look, I always talk about prior preparation with children. So let's talk things through beforehand because actually it is important for children to sort of know what's coming. So you make your own decision as parents. Of course you do and you might really hate football or whatever it might be. So you can think about that with your child in advance.

Like, sweetheart, do you know what? I just don't think this is a great idea. What about if we record it and what about if we get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and watch it? We'll switch off the news. We won't switch on our phones. And we'll still have that experience, but we'll watch it first thing in the morning. So why do we go to bed at 6 o'clock or 7 o'clock or whatever? And then watch it.

So you can start thinking about ways of how to accommodate that. If you're really against it altogether, then I'm going to ask your audience what they would do. Because I think it's quite hard. This is, you know, this is a one in a, you know, agree with Tucho. It's kind of one in every four years. We don't normally have it at one o'clock in the morning. It's not ideal, but there's a way to sort of bring us all together through that. And for children, it's really important to have a sense of belonging. So trying to facilitate that, but you've got to do you as a parent. You've got to make your own call for your children,

but talk to them in advance about why you're making those decisions and then try to find that compromise together. And also be child led. What would you like to do, sweetheart? It's quite hard to stay up. You might actually end up missing it by falling asleep and then what happens. So maybe sort of thinking we might want to watch it in the morning or, you know, going into school a bit later to watch it might be one of the compromises that you agree. We've got some people getting in touch and nearly you can read a couple of like in a second, but the Times have says that one school in Wiltshire offering to show the match at 7 a.m. in the morning. So the kids come in earlier than normal and do it all together, which would be

really fun. Really fun. Well, I love that. Margaret has another idea. She says if my boys were young, if they were young now, I would negotiate with them to get three hours of sleep early in the night, then watch the match, then sleep, then go to school. Because my boys are now adults, they're going to watch the match and also go to work. It's not rocket science, but I shall go to sleep, says Margaret. But what about that? Can kids do that?

Like, can they, well, it work for them? Yeah. So I guess for any parent, I'd ask, you know, when your child's been on a long journey or you've had to get up in really early hours of the morning to go on holiday, how does your child tolerate being woken up? Because a lot of us as adults,

but really children go into what I call the baboon brain, the limbic brain, which is really emotional. And being woken up when you're in a deep sleep, who really does like that? So I think you've got to think about it, maybe talk to your child. Do you know what? What about if we try that?

But if I wake you up and you're really grumpy, I really want to watch the game and have a good time. So I don't want to be dealing with that. how do you want to work it out? So between us, you're talking, but also to accept that it is quite hard for children to be woken up in the early hours and expect them to be, yay, they might be. But you've got to look at how your child really responds in those moments. I know that I've got one child that is fine with that and another child that hates being woken up. So working with your child and how they tolerate that is really key. But, you know, sleep is important. And also the other

thing to say to parents, there's a whole lot riding on having a really good time and it all being really excited. You might have a child that wakes up and says, no, I don't want to watch it now. You know, we can all go, oh, I was really looking forward to this. But actually, don't berate yourself or your child. You know, children are still working with a very undeveloped brain. They're still very immature in their brain development. So they don't tolerate big events, big emotions as well as we do. And let's face it, how many of us get it right the whole time? So go gently. So what will you be doing, Kate? Well, I've got mad football fans in my family, but my husband's two things actually.

My husband, former Royal Marines Commando, takes a very hard line on this. So he's a bit like sort of Bridget saying, you know, there are consequences. If you choose to watch the game, you've got to get up, sweethearts, because this is life. So you've got to get up and go to school the next day. So he's like, you know, you can do this, but maybe have an extra hour, but you've still got to go into school. So we do take quite a hard line on that. But my husband did say, if it's anything like the Garner game, we'll all be asleep at 8.30 or another later. let's hope it's exciting enough to keep us all up.

Yeah, fingers crossed. Kate Silverton, thank you so much. Thank you, Kay. Thank you, Kate. Now, there has always been a fascination with celebrity trials, but in this era of podcasting, the appetite for the details has even increased. There has been so many examples of high-profile men on trial, both in the courts and by the media. You probably remember the attention given to music stars P. Diddy, and Orr Kelly, plus the actors, Amber Hurd and Johnny Depp. Well, the way we women were treated in court was controversial for some, raising accusations of misogyny. And for many, it was exacerbated by some of the media reporting. After presenting the BBC podcast, Diddy on trial and

fame under fire, BBC journalist Anushka Matanda Daugherty has been looking at the way women are treated in celebrity court cases and whether it has an effect on how women are treated in society, especially where interest in the manosphere is on the rise. It's also a topic that Dr. Catherine Higgins has explored. Her research has focused on how women were viewed in high-profile cases where men have been accused of sexual assault and violence. Well, Anushka and Catherine join us here on stage in Sheffield. Good to have you with us. Anushka, let's jump into it. You've looked at the details of some of these trials for your podcast.

What's going on? I gave a brief overview there. I think what we're seeing more than ever before is we have the rise of short-form platforms that we never had. And these are apps that incentivise people. to post by offering them money. And one of the things that is making the money is covering these call cases. And so I covered the Diddy trial and we had this whole ecosystem that sprung up where they were reporting making eight to 12 videos a day and cashing the checks. But it's in their interest to have the most inflammatory things said, sometimes just making it up. There are no editors. Nobody's checking

you. There are no standards if I'm being kind of cruel, but true. And so that has sprung up. It happened with Diddy. A lot of people made a lot of money and had a career and then they want the next one and the next one and the next one. So you have these hungry content creators looking to cash the checks. They need these trials. But it's affecting the way that the rest of society perceives what was going on in that courtroom and it's difficult to cut through with the actual truth. So in that environment, we have unfortunately a space where narratives are allowed to survive and thrive that aren't good for us. So for example, you mentioned P. Diddy there. He's an American hip-hop star. That trial was in New York. His ex-partner was Cassie Ventura.

who accused him of a decade of physical violence and sexual abuse. But what happened to her in that courtroom? Well, it was difficult really because Cassie started dating Diddy when she was 19 years old and they were in a relationship for 11 years. And I only knew Cassie as Diddy's girlfriend. And so actually when I went into the courtroom, first trial I'd ever reported on at 24 years old, I had to confront the fact that we were all kind of complicit

in allowing her identity to be an indenture. to him. So what she was trying to do on that stand over the four days that she was on there heavily heavily pregnant. I mean, she did a fantastic job because they are long days. She was trying to reconstruct her personhood and say this is what was going on behind closed doors. What Dill was accused of with some really intricate and nuanced charges, particularly the sex trafficking allegations, because we're not talking about sex trafficking that we might think of on a bigger scale of people being moved from country to country, put in the back of vans, which does happen and is a massive problem.

We're talking about down the same street. We're talking from house to house. We're talking within intimate relationships. And she was trying to explain this, which she says happened to her, to a jury of 12 people. And it became very clear that a narrative was being told about Cassie

by the defence. And I didn't realize that a lot of what being a lawyer is is creative storytelling. But why tell a new story if you don't have to? They told a story that we all know that we've all been marinating in since birth of the Madonna, and then there is something else, which I'm not going to say on Radio 4 at 10 in the morning, but there is a woman who

enjoys sex. There is the woman who is sexually liberal. The closing arguments consisted of them saying, you know, Cassie alleges decades of abuse. She alleges that she was kept in rooms for days on end in these things called freakoffs, where she was fed a cocktail of drugs and alcohol and forced to perform with multiple male sex performers, ending in STIs, ending in dehydration, having to be hospitalized sometimes. And they said, in their closing arguments, verbatim from the defence, Cassie really enjoys sex. She's a really sexy woman, good for her. She's a woman who actually enjoys sex.

And this is a defence that finished to rapturous applause. And it was a narrative that won them over. He was not convicted of the sex trafficking charges. We watched a video, maybe 14, 15 times of Dedi attacking her in a hallway, in a hotel, and then dragging her down the hallway. And she says that sex trafficking by force. The defence said, you wanted it. But Catherine, let me bring you in here, because women who make accusations of abuse, they do have to be cross-examined in court. That's the nature of a fair trial. And the findings of that court is part of a democracy that you've outlined, Anushka. How do you see this issue?

I think it's interesting and important that you bring up the short form platforms because I think what we see is obviously it's part of the job of a defense lawyer to try to create a narrative that will introduce enough doubt into the story that their client might escape prosecution. But that's what not guilty means in the context of a courtroom. It's not what not guilty means in the context of culture. In culture, we think of not guilty as meaning this didn't happen, right? So what we see is not only that we have this influx of social media influences capitalizing on these sort of spectacles because they're attention-grabbing, but also we have algorithms that organize social media platforms that monetize attention, but are indifferent to the reason for that attention.

So it's not just that we have influencers reporting or maybe mainstream news outlets reporting, but we have a kind of financial incentive within the media ecosystem to keep these stories as contentious and doubtful as possible. And this ultimately works against the survivors who speak out. It's so interesting. Just as you're speaking about it there, I think what's coming to my mind is when politicians realize that elections could be won or lost with social media.

And I suppose we have, in a way, a parallel happening in some ways when it comes to court cases. But, you know, we are talking about what happens in court or has happened in court and then reported by the media in various ways, as you described. What impact, Catherine, do you think that has in society at large for women and girls? Yeah, I mean, I think it's undeniable that we're in an ongoing moment of heated backlash against the Me Too movement. Obviously, the Depp heard defamation hearing a few years ago was a massive flashpoint in that backlash. Johnny Depp and Amber Hurd. Yes, yes. What it really ultimately does

is reinforce the idea that the instinctive response to a woman who speaks out about sexual violence should be suspicion, right? That ultimately we should start from the position of why might she be lying, why might this not be true, how might this be a false accusation. And it's important for us to recognize that that reflex towards suspicion just isn't borne out in what we know about rates of false accusation, which are incredibly low. So that's so interesting. So you think there's a pendulum, so to speak, that that was the default position, then Me Too, there was a change and now we've gone back to somewhere else? Yeah, I think the narrative has been redirected. There was a brief window in time after the sort of viral hashtag Me Too movement where we were having a lot of

conversations about the prevalence of sexual violence and sexual harassment. What has displaced that conversation since is this anxious preoccupation with the politics of accusation. When is it okay to make an accusation in public? What might that accusation do to a man who was accused? Our concern about the possibility of false accusation has almost eclipsed our concern about sexual violence. Anishka, what are you thinking hearing some of this that you've delved into. My vigorous nodding. I think me too happened when I was 16 years old.

Really? So I was kind of coming into, I'm not going to say womanhood, but like figuring stuff out. And it felt like a real shift. And I don't really know when it became a dirty word along the way. You kind of just woke up one day and it turned into a meme. And it's a bit upsetting because it was being 16 years old and looking at the generations above you, calling things out and saying this is a massive shift. And it was huge. Yes. To then kind of flash forward to being in a courtroom, people calling Cassie all sorts, people calling all the women that

got up there all sorts, people applauding arguments, closing arguments that in 2016 when that was happening would have been scandalous. I kind of felt like I blinked and I missed what had happened and it was creeping in behind me and I didn't realize. There is the U.S. Attorney on your podcast, Sean Kent, who's so fascinating as well and his takes on some of these cases. What has he told you about how some lawyers are now using misogyny? Well, this is the thing. Misogyny has always won trials. We're just in the courtrooms more. We're just reporting on it more. People are more interested in what is going on. And for good reason, because we've had such huge scandals in recent years where people are like, I want to know

the detail. I want to know every single thing that's said. But, Sean will tell you, as well, a lot of other attorneys, that if you have somebody on the stand that you can discredit by calling into question, you know, are they sexually promiscuous, you will do it. He will tell you that you want more male jurors than female jurors. He will tell you that you want older male jurors and older female jurors because they're more likely to align with those notions. And that's, I mean, he's speaking generally, but this is what they look for when they're admitting people onto the jury. So it's, it's been tried to, tactic. It's an interesting one though because you're talking about juries and instead outside the

courtroom what's happening on short form platforms for example it's probably a much younger demographic. Catherine your book is called believability, sexual violence, media and the politics of doubt. I mean what is that hunger that people have for the details that we're hearing about from Anushka? I mean I would love to believe that the reason that we've had this outpouring of media attention television programs, films about sexual violence in the aftermath of Me Too, is because we're all newly concerned about violence against women. But unfortunately, it's part of a much longer history of seeing violence against women as an entertainment spectacle, ultimately. And so what we have in these celebrity cases of the kind that Anushke has been following

is a kind of collision of celebrity culture and our sort of parasocial connection to celebrities with this almost voyeuristic interest in the minutia of these things. that happen to women. So the parisocial relationships, that's when we feel. We have a real relationship with somebody that actually we're just following online. Are there any positive stories, Catherine, to come out about how women are treated in court? I wish there were. I guess the real world consequences, it's something that we talk about women's out all the time,

Nula, is that this is about trust in the system. And then where can women go? you know, can you go and get heard and have a trial that believes in you that is fair? You know, and that is something that we talk about a lot. Yeah, definitely. And I suppose the infrastructure, what is there actually for women? Yeah, I think if there is a positive to be found, it's that we know that successfully prosecuting rape and sexual violence in a court of law is incredibly hard.

But public attention in these trials means that often women are able to share their stories and share their testimonies in public, even if they're not able to successfully secure a prosecution. And I suppose coming back to another episode of Women's Are We had, the great Giselle Pelico on with us. And I've spoken to so many women with other stories that have used her. She hates the word icon about her, but used her really as an icon and also a role model

to realize that shame must change size and then walking into that courtroom with perhaps a completely different mindset as well. Really interesting. very thought-provoking. Anushka, you're here at the Cross-Dwarres Festival, your podcast fame under fire will also be broadcast. Give us a quick line on what you'll be talking about. We're going to be examining celebrity trials from OJ up until the prospective future Macron's versus Candace Owens trial that's coming. So that's what we're going to take a look at.

Really interesting. Thank you both so much, Anushka Matanda Doherty and Dr. Catherine Higgins. If you're here, of course, at the Cross-2ars, you can catch Anushka's podcast tomorrow. Also, you can also listen on BBC Sounds if you're not in Sheffield with us right now and I do want to say if you've been affected by anything we've been discussing you can find help and support on the BBC Action Line. I'm going to read out another message that's coming about the football. Someone said, for this one-off occasion,

surely would it do any harm to close all the schools for one day? It says Frankie. Frankie is 11. Thank you, Frankie. 84844. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now let's turn our attention to our next guest, the multi-award-winning poet and author Helen Mort. When she became a stepmother, Helen set out to find some literary role models, but was left somewhat disappointed when what she found was from the Wicked Queen to the Put Upon Parents of the Blended Family.

Well, now in her new collection called Stepmother, she explores the origins of those much maligned archetypes, we find in fairy tales, films, and even in our own friendship groups. Helen, welcome to Wumsauer. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. And we are in your hometown. We are. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the program. So tell me the origins of this book then. Why did you want to write Stepmother? Yeah, well, it was that frustration of, I mean, I really did. I literally sat up late one night and put the word stepmother into a popular book sourcing website and was kind of expecting that there would be some kind of literary, examination of the term or something from like a really interesting memoir and instead the the search results really shocked me it was it was a load of kind of step monster body horror alien stuff and lots of self-help guides called things like you're not their mom and you never will be when to shut up and

and then more concerningly within the top ten um step step mom step son pornography and and things like that. That was there before I even got to a novel that concerned the role of the stepmother. So it was that classic thing, which is also a great opportunity as an artist where you think, okay, I'm going to make the thing that I would like to see in the world. I'm going to delve into this topic and work out why the word stepmother is synonymous with wicked in our culture, why we all think about the wicked queen from Snow White and others. And what did you find? Where does that stereotype come from? Well, I think it's almost so pervasive we don't question.

It's a lot of film, a lot of fairy tales that concern wicked stepmothers over the years. And sometimes some of the stories that I found in fairy tales were more disturbing than you'd imagine. There were some quite terrible stepmother characters. but I guess there's been some research done about sort of splitting of roles. I think this actually goes back to what Anushka was saying about the Madonna other kind of paradox that we set up, dichotomy, where we have to somehow pit mothers against some other feminine, subversive influence. There are also some arguments that the stepmother embodies all the kind of complicated feelings that we might have towards mothers in society but can't voice and because

there's this non-biological sort of connection it's safe to make the stepmother evil in some way but I think it's very deep rooted and you see it in popular films like Julia Roberts stepmom where the women get pitted against each other and all the way back to the Grimm, the Brothers Grimm and their fairy tales. And you started this because you are a stepmom and what's the and you, you, it's poetry, but it's also prose, and you've sort of interlaced your own experience throughout. And you start by saying you were going to ask your stepchildren to write about their experience

and then realise that they might not want to tell you how they feel about it. Yeah, I mean, it's very hard, isn't it? If you say to somebody, tell me what you think, and then they know you're going to read it. And I thought of all these different ways, you could put it in a kind of time capsule or something like that. I am, of course, very interested in this book, in the whole experience of blended families,

but I chose to focus on the experiences of people who had been or were or identified themselves as stepmothers in some way, just because it was so underwritten in a way that perhaps having a stepmother or a stepparent isn't, I don't think. So I did a lot of research with other women who related to being a stepmother and they sent me postcards that fed into the experiences I was charting in the book. So it does draw on some personal experience, but I wanted it to be much more of a kind of a fictional project that could stand for the experiences of lots of people and kind of hopefully make a new, more nuanced archetype of what a stepmother could be seen as.

It certainly does that. I think we should hear a taster. Would you read something for us? Sure. I'll read a poem called Slipper, which responds to the Cinderella story in some ways. way. Slipper. What if the sisters weren't ugly and the stepmother only usually cruel? What if they all walked home together after school sharing fuchsia bubble gum? What if ashes fested in the grate and nobody

rose to light the fire in that low ceilings house of women? What if they each desired the other? And if the pumpkin remained vegetable, the mice carried on their secret lives and midnight passed without incident and moonlight was a long knife that pared the palace garden where the prince walked cradling a glass stiletto bought only for himself what if his want was a high shelf he'd built and decorated lined with wigs and stick on jewels what if he stopped beside the ornamental pond with its monstrous coy and face held in the water tried the damn shoe on That one really stayed with me. Very good.

The metaphor of shoes runs throughout the book. It does. Obviously, shoes are quite important. In fairy tale, we encounter them all the time. A gruesome one that doesn't make it into the Disney film is that Snow White's evil stepmother is, in the original story, forced to dance herself to death in shoes made of burning coals.

So there were all these shoes in the fairy tale literature, but I decided to make them a central metaphor in the book because of this idea of walking in someone else's shoes to try and understand their experience, the sense that instead of being split and sort of fragmented and structurally set in opposition to each other as women, that we might have a little bit more empathy for the complications of different structural roles.

Also, I love shoes, so it was nice to write about them. You also mentioned the character of the X throughout the book and those feelings you have towards the partner's original family. family unit and how did it feel writing that and sort of having to explore that yourself? Yeah, I mean, and I've put this as X with a capital E because again, I wanted to examine the way that we, the way that women kind of get pitted against each other in those kind of scenarios and how we all inevitably then turn other people into archetypes and roles. That's why I put X with a capital E, that, you know, the idea that we fixate on,

what people represent to us rather than connecting to the real person, but also how, you know, how difficult that can be to resist. So I kind of, I think the book, I wanted to write a book that was real, if you like, about the challenges that exist within blended families, particularly if you're taking on a title as charged as the stepmother, but also to move towards a kind of hopefully, you know, a hopeful conclusion, but one that would seem more convincing because it admits the darkness as well, but that everyone can choose to connect to each other,

whatever your relationship, biological or otherwise. Were you given the title, or did you give it to yourself? You know, often sometimes people presume, oh, if you're another woman in a child's life, then that's the role you have, but maybe it's not the role you want. Well, it's really interesting as well. I was thinking, you know, when do you become a stepmother? What's the threshold that you pass through?

Is it something to do with the relationship, or is it something to do with when the children feel comfortable, having an argument with you or something else? I think it's this strange, ambiguous thing. And as you've alluded to there, like a lot of other labels that get given to us as women, generally you don't have much choice in the matter. It's seldom that you give the role to yourself.

Having said that, one of the great things about talking to law, lots of other women about their experiences was the absolute range of emotions and range of positive, negative, ambivalent feelings that came out and this, you know, no two stepmother experiences were the same. And that's what's depressing about the prevailing narrative is that it kind of presents it as an archetype. And you started by saying that there's a, you googled stepmother and all this range came up. Anything for stepfathers? Well, no. There is no wicked stepfather writ large. Of course there are accounts of troubling, distressing, damaging abusive relationships with stepfathers in books and in film and in other things.

But in terms of having that cartoonish representation that you could just Google and you'll get the image of the wicked queen or whatever, surprise, that does not exist. It hasn't become a kind of emblem in the same. way. We've had a message in from Julia and she says as a stepmother you need to accept that you will always in capitals be second best. You may be the better but you'll never be get the part. And it's saying that helped me when I was feeling very inadequate as a new stepmom to children whose mom had died. Thank you so much Helen. Thank you. Thank you so much. Helen Mawkes and the book stepmother is out now. So interesting.

So we won't look at fairy tales the same way there's a lovely series of retold or reimagined fairy tales on Radio 4 at the moment you can catch them on BBC Sounds as well but we won't look at footwear in the same way either.

He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active

footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, to our next guests. Our next guest, Lisa Lloyd, is known for writing about life with her autistic children.

She's the author of the bestselling book Raising the Sen Between Us. She also writes with fond humour about life with her two children on the autistic spectrum on her social media account, ASD, with a G and a T. It's something that she's spoken about to me before here on Women's Hour. So welcome. Hello. Thank you for having me back. This is scarier this time that I remember. These are a very friendly crowd. Very friendly crowd, I can promise. It's just recently, however, that Lisa has found out that she's autistic herself diagnosed in your 40s. your latest book, Unmasking Mum, writing about how you parent as a neurodivergent mum and also giving advice for autistic women on how they can take care of themselves. So looking forward to hearing all about that. Beside, Lisa, is Professor Megan Freeth, who's the head of Sheffield University's Autism Research Lab.

So you didn't have to come too far today, Professor. No, I didn't. Just 10 minute walk from the office. Good. Good. Glad to hear it. Well, Lisa, your book is about your experiences as a parent, but also that diagnosis of all How did it come about? Well, it was mainly from my children. I've got two autistic children, and I sort of started recognizing some of their traits in myself. And I have a lot of followers online and things, and obviously a lot of them are autistic people.

And a lot of them kept messaging me and saying, I think you might be as well. really. So it kind of went from there and I thought, do you know what? I'll go and get the diagnosis and see and yeah, it ended up being sort of like a therapy session in the end. Because I was reading that it was a really emotional moment for you. Can you take us there? Why was that? Yeah, well I think, I think especially as women, we learn to mask neurodivergent women our whole lives. And I think we become so good at it that we actually don't even realise that we're doing it a lot of the time. And in that session, I just said everything.

All these feelings that I'd kept inside for so long, all of my anxieties, all of the things that I'd been told at school that I was, you know, naughty or, you know, that I was stupid. and all of these sort of labels that I've been given throughout my life, which had affected me more than I realised. You know, it's so easy to listen to the negative and, you know, dismiss the positives. And, you know, that had really had a huge effect on me and knocked my confidence.

So with that diagnosis, did some of those unwanted labels fall away? Yeah, I mean, they're still rear their ugly head. You know, there's still, I mean, my biggest troll is my son usually. It will be, it tells me some horrible things and my bum's too big and all of that. But, yeah, it has really helped me to be sort of kinder to myself. And, you know, just understand that it's, actually, I'm neurodivergent and in a neurotypical world, and things are a little bit harder for me. And, you know, I'm not completely crazy, a little bit crazy.

A little bit crazy is always good, but your book is very funny, which I should put across to people, which they'll probably feel from your energy already through the radio waves, or indeed here in Sheffield in the theatre. You say looking back now, before you knew you were autistic, certain things make sense. Like how you went about trying to get pregnant? Yes.

So, you know, when you're autistic, you tend to be very black and white with the rules and things like that. And, you know, there's certain things, certain processes that they say that you do to get pregnant. Obviously not going into too much information. We all know how to get pregnant. But, you know, there was, it was a very rigid timetable. My husband was quite scared a lot of the time. And, you know, there was things like, you know, putting your legs up in the air can help gravity and things.

I was up there for over an hour. And he came in and said to me, I think you can, you know, stand back up now. But also, so, well, it worked because you did get pregnant. You spoke about your children. But motherhood was challenging, particularly those early months with a newborn, looking back on that time now,

realizing that you're autistic, I mean, what might help other mothers? Because you feel there hasn't been a book, really. We talked about not having perhaps a script for stepmothers. There's also that for neurodivergent mothers, particularly with newborns. What do you think they should know from your own experience? Yeah, well, I don't think there is enough out there

because, and that's why I created this book, because, you know, that whole change from going from not a parent to a parent is huge anyway. But that transition when you're autistic is even bigger. And I didn't get all the things that you're naturally told. I didn't bond with my baby straight away. I went into severe depression. It was probably the worst time of my life, looking back now. And, you know, this little, strong.

stranger that was suddenly here, he'd messed up all my routines, all the things that made me feel safe. And I felt like I'd lost myself. I didn't know who I was anymore. And I actually grieved for like my old life. I missed that old life, that freedom I had and, you know, and how simple things were. And I think we often hear through the media how beautiful it is and everything like that, but we also don't hear about the ones that don't get that connection straight away, and it takes time to adjust. And difficult to speak about, I would imagine, as well. Really difficult.

You know, I had, and, you know, I do talk about that in my book, but I had some really, really dark thoughts, and I'm so glad now that I spoke to somebody about them because I don't actually know if I would be here now, you know, because it got that bad at that time. and, you know, it was, I didn't realise, I was also raising an autistic child at the same time, so he had his own needs as well. Huge changes, and I will say, if you've been affected by these issues

that we're speaking about right now, you can find links to help and support on the BBC Action Line, but thank you for sharing that, Lisa. I do want to bring in Professor Freeth here. We hear about girls and women masking, but I guess the mask has to come off when something as pivotal as motherhood happens.

What have you seen with women who are autistic moving into that other phase of their life? Well, for a lot of autistic people, you know, change can be really challenging. So, you know, kind of entering into motherhood, you know, can be quite a challenging time. But, you know, generally we do find that overall autistic mothers end up having a very intense connection with their children often autistic people can feel emotions very, very strongly,

and that can really end up with a very, very strong bond for people. But yeah, going through that transition phase, it's very challenging, like Lisa says, it kind of messes up with your routines, and that can be a big, difficult thing for autistic people. You are from the Autism Research Lab at Sheffield University. What about Lisa's experience of being diagnosed in her 40s, and things kind of slotting into place and making sense in some ways.

Yeah, absolutely. And that really chimes with some research that we did where we were doing lots of interviews with autistic women who'd received their diagnosis over the age of 40. And yes, they did seem to find that receiving that diagnosis, going through that process did help them to make sense of things. It really helped people to feel more self-compassionate. But there's a long, there can often be quite a long transition phase for that.

It's not something often that's a light bulb moment and then everything's all, you know, wonderful, everything makes sense. It's quite a transition into kind of realizing a new identity. And then there's a lot of also complex feelings that can come with it. And some people almost kind of grieve for opportunities that they might have missed out earlier on, earlier in life. If they knew, if they had more of a self-understanding and self-compassion perhaps as well. I've mentioned Lisa that your book is very funny. as well. How important is humour when talking

about a topic that can be very deep and sensitive at times? I mean, laughing has always been my coping mechanism anyway and I think it's hugely important because it can give you that bit of escape

and that, you know, it can be very deep sometimes, especially when raising autistic children, when being autistic yourself, there's a lot of negativity surrounding that. And I think humour can help you get through it, basically. I have a very dark humour at times.

And I do think it's needed on those days. And I also use it on my social media to engage more of an audience because I think, you know, you don't want to just reach out to people who are already neurodivergent. You want to reach a bigger audience to help educate. And I think humour can do that because, you know, it's only human nature that we're only interested in things that really affect us. But with the sort of comedy side, it can actually get people to learn a little bit without them realising. It brings down people's armour, doesn't it?

It kind of makes you relax around a topic. That you're sometimes afraid of saying the wrong thing to be completely honest. I mean, I say the wrong thing all the time. I get into trouble quite a lot. I've done very well today. I'm being very careful today and I've been told to not swear. But you know, I was struck by a professor talking about sometimes there can be a very, maybe even more intense bond between a neurodivergent parent and child.

And you can have empathy perhaps for them in a way that maybe a neurotypical parent may not. Tell us a little bit of what that feels like. Yeah, I think it's really helped me. to understand the kids more and their needs, their meltdowns. And often me and my husband would sort of butt heads quite a lot because he wouldn't understand why our child is getting really upset about something and sort of for him from an outside perspective overreacting, whereas I would get it, I would understand completely

because I would be feeling it too. And, you know, there's a lot of times I even blamed things. kids for us, you know, me wanting to leave places, I'd say, oh, you know, my son's about to have a meltdown and they're all looking at him like, he looks fine. I'm like, no, no, no, he needs to go definitely. And it's just me that wants to get away. Well, before I let you go, I'm going to have to ask Lisa, staying up on Sunday night for the football, will the kids be allowed? Um, no, but they will be up. They don't sleep, basically. So, that's why I looked like I'm angry. Not at all. Welcome, welcome to Lisa's world.

Thank you for bringing us into it, Lisa Lloyd, and also Professor Megan Freeth, Lisa's book on Masking Mum, which is a good read and a lot of fun about a lot of interesting, but also stuff we need to learn about parenting when you are a divergent. It's out now. Thank you. I particularly liked Lisa you saying that people online were diagnosing you. There's this great sketch that Sarah Pasco does where she describes other people

with ADHD diagnosing other people. It's like a pyramid scheme. People who have it diagnose other people. Thank you. Right. Now, Sheffield is known as a sporty place. Big name sportswomen like Olympian, Jessica Ernest Hill, Lioness's Ellie Rowbook, and Esme Morgan are from this great city. Sheffield has been important for women's grassroots sports

and especially for the pioneers of women's basketball in the UK. Vanessa Ellis is a former basketball player, and she's now the head coach of the Sheffield. Sheffield Hatters. It's the UK's oldest women's basketball team. The club was founded by Betty Codona in 1961, who happens to be Vanessa's mum. Vanessa won the Betty Codona Coach of the Year Award after leading the Hatters to all four domestic trophies. So she's pretty remarkable. Vanessa, welcome to Woman's Hour. Coach of the year, named after your mother, that sounds pretty special. What did that mean to you? Oh, it's amazing. It's always great to be recognized.

by, you know, fellow people in the sport, but having it named after my mum was even more special for me. I think we should start with Betty. You can tell us a bit about her. So she brought basketball to the UK in 1961. Yeah. How did that come about? So my mum was a PE teacher and went on a course

and somebody delivered basketball and she just fell in love with the game, took it back to school. And obviously really unusual for girls to pay. and they fell in love with it, and they set up an after-school club at Hatfield House Lane School. So the name comes from Hatfield House Lane.

Everybody asks where Hatters comes from. And that was born, 1961, so it's our 65th year, first ever women's team in the UK. Well done. A great trailblazer and pioneer. What a mum. And did you have a choice? Yeah, I mean, we had a choice.

But from a young age, we were on the side of the court, while she played as well as coach and, you know, just fell in love with it herself. So it was inevitable. And basketball is such a, you know, well-known sport now, but I just wonder about your mum being that pioneer in the 60s. What did people make of her playing basketball with the girls at school? Yeah, so initially they had to play against boys and men. There was no other women's team out there, which was difficult.

But anybody who knew my mum, she was a very strong character. She was always going to achieve something and really push for other things. So, you know, she was a great leader. So how did you go from watching on the sidelines to then actually getting involved yourself? Just started playing part of the club. You know, we've grown over the years. We have lots of juniors. So before all the junior players and the senior players played together

and you just got stuck in and played. Now we'd have different age groups and, you know, we have actual professional women's team. And then from there to a full-time coach? Yes. So I taught for many years, so I used to play and teach and then went into coaching. But fortunately, things are starting to change for women's sport, and I'm a full-time basketball coach. Wonderful. Can you explain a bit about the league, about basketball in the UK and how it works?

Yes. So our top league, we've got 10 women's team fully professional. We play each week, and there are four trophies to go for. so this season for us was amazing, winning all four. Congratulations, that's really, really great. So a huge achievement. And you've got a really strong youth development team. I'm wondering about the sports and the sort of legs it stands on

and what's coming through in the future. So you've got an under 14 girls' teams. What does it teach young girls and young women this sport? Yeah, I mean, this was a legacy from my mum. The club was about giving women girls' opportunities in sport. to have fun and joy, it's a family, it's a community. And the girls come and it builds their confidence and lots of other qualities like resilience, commitment,

teamwork, hard work. And she was always a great believer in these values to give women opportunities and girls opportunities to come and be part of a family and a community who care. I don't wanna divide the audience, but I used to play a lot of netball, a lot of sport generally. all of it, hockey tennis, you name it,

but I loved basketball. And I think it's just... Me too, and I did. We did not know that we were both basketball players. But I mean, obviously there is a big... Is there a height advantage? Do you need to be tall? No, you can be fast. You can be the very fast.

Nimble. Yes. Yes. If you're smaller, you tend to be faster and more skillful. I always say that because I'm small. So I said, you have more skill and you quicker, but having height is an advantage. I'm seeing a whole new woman's are a basketball team. Yeah. You could be the goal shooting, you can be shooting,

and I'll be the mean machine dribbling and passing it to you. I'll coach you. Oh, we're on to a winner. How important are role models? It's unbelievable. Our senior team are the role models' inspiration for the young girls. They come in, you know, they're professional players, but they come in weekly to help with the junior coaching, just so they get to meet them and be their role models

and show young girls there is opportunities out there to be a professional sport, athlete. We also know, because we talk about it a lot on the program, is that teen girls, they give up sports. Is that happening? Are you seeing that happen? Yeah, you see that a lot. Because often, for women,

they don't see the opportunities to be a professional player. It's more linked to the academic side and often give up to concentrate on the studies. But, you know, the more opportunities there are, the more female players, the more they see these women play, you know, that's something they can aspire to. Yeah, I mean, yes, it's about academics, but I guess you become so much more self-conscious

and your body changes and so much is happening. So how much of that do you think impacts them? Of course, it's a number of things. And, you know, if you see somebody, you will want to be like them. And, you know, it's getting the right role models for young girls. How do you encourage girls to stick at basketball then? I think we've just got to make it enjoyable fun. It becomes a community of support

and relationships. I think that's what sport brings and we see more and more girls when they feel part of something want to stay in it. Obviously we've seen women's football has done incredibly well. It's the T20 cricket is happening at the moment.

Where do you see basketball fit into all of that? Well, we're hoping to grow the sport even more and give women more opportunities to be full-time basketball players. And how are you doing that when you say hoping? What needs to happen? Yeah, it's just about the investment. Obviously, finance is always the part.

Coverage, media coverage is a big thing as well because the more we're in the public eye, the more people want to get involved of support financially and other aspects. And looking ahead, what are you hopes? What's going to happen next? Well, we're hoping to have another amazing season and continue.

And, you know, on the junior section, just keep growing, keep getting more girls into playing a great game. Would you allow children to stay up on Sunday night to watch the football? Yes. Yes. I thought that might be the answer. Vanessa Ellis, thank you so much. And best of luck for the next season.

Thank you. Thank you. So many messages coming in about the football. Shall we end the program with some of our listeners' messages, Nula? Absolutely. Here's one. What about the teachers dealing with the exhausted children? I think if you are treating your children with watching the match,

you should take the consequences. by looking after them the following day and if it means you are fine pay the fine, parents need to take responsibility for that decision too. Oh, I've got one here from Nora Young who says, look at it the other way round. Schools should have a footy day.

Cross-curricular, discuss the match, portraits of footballers, writing, drawing, etc. Football facts, data, maths. As an old teacher, I could go on, create a sense of togetherness, make a deal. Can I go back to our other item on stepmothers? Here's one. When I was a headmaster, says this person, at a boarding school in England,

one parent who was a stepmother told me she'd chosen what the boys would call her. They called her Wiki because, as she said with a smile, all stepmothers are historically wicked, and the boys thought this was just great. Well, that is a good way of looking at it, isn't it? Maybe wicked just means fun. And another one here is saying, I just want to say, I've always viewed my stepmother as the other mother. mother. Now, thank you all to our guests, to our audience here at the Montgomery Theatre in Sheffield. Join us again tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour, where you will hear Anita. And you can hear the government's maternity advisor responding to Baroness Amos' report into maternity and neonatal care in England and fairy tales through a feminist lens. But for now, goodbye and thank you for joining us.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. So, Alice Lockstone, I'm here for the history. Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality. And that's perfect because we have a lot of history to share. Why did tea become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do women's clothes still not have pockets? Well, in our new podcast, here for the history,

we're investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today. Basically, the things we've all noticed but never stopped to question. Listen on BBC Sounds Or watch on YouTube Just search for Here for the History How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire From posting videos On good bad billionaire

We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber Mr Beast made his fortune He's buried himself in a coffin for days Counted to 100,000 on camera And even recreated squid games All in an attempt to go viral on the internet But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000

So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.