Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour Power List: Farhana Yamin, Jo Whitfield CEO Co-op Food, Chila Kumari Burman

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

The idea of reaching net-zero emissions is mentioned so often, it’s easy to forget that someone came up with it. That someone is Farhana Yamin – a world-class environmental lawyer, expert in international climate negotiations and number 2 on this year’s Woman’s Hour Power List. Jane Garvey talks to Farhana about her fascinating career.She’s the first woman to run a leading British grocery retailer, we speak to Jo Whitfield, who is CEO of Co-Op Food. She joins Jane to talk about how food retailers have responded to the pandemic, the safety of her workers, her rise to the top and her women’s network Grocery Girls.Chila Kumari Singh Burman has created a new installation for Tate Britain’s annual Winter Commission, unveiled in time for Diwali, the Festival of Lights. Chila is celebrated for her interdisciplinary practice which spans printmaking, painting, installation and film. In her work she draws on her Punjabi heritage, her Liverpudlian childhood – her father owned an ice cream van - and her feminist perspectives. She describes her work as “high art meeting popular culture”.Actress Jane Seymour, who celebrates her seventieth next year, recently wrote that she refused to cut her trade mark long hair going against the received wisdom that you need to think about shorter styles as you age. Jane Garvey talks about the dos and don’ts of hair care as you get older with Alyson Walsh a fashion journalist who writes for The Telegraph and runs her own blog site That’s Not My Age and also to the hair stylist Ashley Gaunt who works at Stephen Carey Hair in Mayfair, London.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast from the 17th of November 2020. Hi there, good morning. Welcome to the programme. If you're an older woman, how is your hair looking? Do you keep it long? Or are you somebody who thinks,

actually, it's time I went short and got a crop? We're talking about this this morning because the actress Jane Seymour has been talking about her own views on this. She says, I've kept my hair long all my life and I'm aware that this is for some reason considered a statement at nearly 70. She says, it's not a statement. Long hair just suits me and always has. Your thoughts on that, welcome. We're going to talk to a top hairdresser and to somebody who writes about these issues on the programme a little bit later at BBC Women's Hour on social media if you want to get involved.

We also have the visual artist Shaila Kumari Singh-Berman with us this morning. Her work is currently on display at Tate Britain. It's bright, it's colourful, it will cheer you up. Shaila's a scouser. That's not the only reason I think she's a good laugh and she'll be a great guest and we'll talk to her a little bit later. Her work, if you're interested, if you want to go down to Tate Britain,

which is in Pimlico, isn't it? I'm just, it's in Pimlico. So you can get there on the train if you're in London. And it's shining bright between the hours of seven in the morning and two the next morning London and it's shining bright between the hours of seven in the morning and two the next morning so it's something that really will just cheer you up a little bit if you can get to it right now. Now you may well have heard our Power List programme yesterday, some fantastic names on that list, 30 women working to improve the environment in all sorts

of different ways. If you missed the programme, you can hear it on BBC Sounds. At number one in our power list, Our Planet for 2020, was the Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas. And at number two is our guest this morning, the British lawyer, activist and campaigner, expert in international climate negotiations, Farhana Yameen. Welcome to the programme, Far Fahana thank you and congratulations um were you pleased oh completely over the moon thank you yeah oh good that's excellent that's the right response now tell us exactly um who you are and why people should be more aware of you than perhaps most of us are? Well, I'm a Pakistani. I came to this country when I was about nine. I qualified as a lawyer in 1991 and started working by fluke for the small island

states via a charity that was established in this country. And it's really important for me to understand, to say, I would like to be better known because of the work that I've done to represent the voice of the vulnerable in these UN negotiations. Take us a little bit further into your career. So the small island states or nations, what are they and what are they up against? Well, many of them are just a metre above sea level rise. For example, the Coral Atoll Nations, including the Marshall Islands that I represented. So they've always known right from the beginning, from 1989, when the science became clear, that this climate change would affect them and be an existential threat. They were particularly concerned about sea level rise at that time because we didn't know about things like ocean acidification.

We didn't know about saltwater intrusion in that way. So they banded together in 1989 onwards as 44 countries now, small islands and low-lying atoll states. And they clubbed together so that they can punch above their way politically and diplomatically. Otherwise, they would be ignored in these geopolitical power blocks that you have at the moment. Right. So for these people, quite simply, climate change was lived experience. It was happening to them. It was happening to them. It's absolutely. So there's no such thing as natural weather now. There's only the changed climate and they experience the idea or the concept of net zero emissions. Now, this is bandied around all the time now by people who do understand what it means and by

people who perhaps don't understand what it means. So I'm going to ask you, what is it? What are we talking about here? Well, the concept is already embedded in the climate change treaties, which is to bring the overall level of emissions down to a safe level through mitigation, reducing greenhouse gases and through enhanced uptake of them or removals of them. So the net concept is to reduce the emissions we emit to zero, the polluting gases, and to allow trees and reservoirs to take up some of those emissions where we can't reduce them. So you have a net effect. Really simply, but by doing what? By cutting out all fossil fuels, because fossil fuels in the end, you know, are the largest contributor to global warming. And to people who say, yes, but Britain's only one of the least worst polluters here. What about China? What do we say to them?

Well, we're historically, you know, a very big emitter because we burnt, you know, a very large amount of coal for hundreds of years. We're now burning very little coal and most of the other countries are catching up and now are bigger emitters. But we have a real leadership role to pave the way and also, you know, model a new way of, you know, generating power in our economy through renewables. Back in the day, back in, we're talking the early 90s, aren't you? Do you think you were naive? Did you actually believe that scientific expertise would trump big business and that you could change the world? I absolutely did believe that. I thought, you know, armed with law and science and the economic case for climate action, we would be able to influence, you know, politicians and that they

would act in the long term interests. And I guess I totally underestimated how big business, especially the fossil fuel companies, would fight back, you know, underhand in many ways and run disinformation campaigns and use their vast budgets. These are some of the richest organizations in, you know, world human history. And they would use their budgets to lobby, to greenwash, to, you know, brand themselves as green leaders when they weren't, you know, BP is one of them, for example, you know, you may all remember the Beyond Petroleum campaign, you know, that they ran, which was really just the campaign of smokescreen to carry on business as usual. Some, presumably some governments went along with all this. Yeah, these are very influential players in the global economy. Oil is still one of the largest traded commodities. And we were reliant on it. We're still reliant on it. And so they actually stopped progress and said, essentially, let countries that have forests grow more of those forests. Let's put the burden on those countries to suck up emissions via trees and

afforestation, or let's invest in carbon capture and storage. All of these things allow them to continue emitting and expanding fossil fuels. Right. And of course, we may not make stuff in this country anymore, but we are buying it from countries that do make the stuff we need. Yeah, so the UK, you know, has outsourced many of its dirty industries to countries like China, to many of the developing countries, and is asking them now to be cleaner than we were able to manage domestically at home. Can I ask you about, you have a family, of course, I mean, no reason why you shouldn't, but you don't have, nobody has to have one. You have four children. Is that something that people do ask you about? Why have you had four? Yeah, I love my four children. So I think what we have to understand is, you know, 10% of the top slice of the world's population emit 50% of its emissions.

So there are huge inequalities in the way in which we emit. And certainly as a large household, I would absolutely be part of that 10%. So yes, I think, but I don't think population, pinning the blame on population is the way forward. It's really the structural inequalities and the way that the carbon budgets within each country and globally are distributed, which is the problem. It's very skewed. But you do take the point that some people might say you, of all people, could have decided

to have two children, for example. We could. We could have decided that. And I think that the, you know, personal choices are really important. And maybe I would do things differently. We've also, I regret that, you know, flown lots as a family. Do you fly now? No, we've taken a decision to fly less and less in the last two years. I think an occasional flight might be okay. But I think the kind of luxury emissions that are associated with flights are really, I hope, something of the past. And that if we travel, which I think is wonderful, and I wouldn't want years as opposed to two week holidays so that you can really take the time to travel. We now travel by ship. We've taken holidays by ferry and by car.

You, of course, are, I know you'd be the first to admit this, you are be possible for you. But for some people, a cheap bargain break somewhere, a flight that might only cost them back in the day when we were flying, I don't know, 40 quid, 40, maybe 80 quid return, and you could get to a European city and have a really nice load of sunshine. Can you really stop people doing that? Well, I think we have to price flights properly. We have to, the aviation sector is absolutely, you know, riding scot-free and is not included in the various budgets and needs to be taxed for the pollution that it emits. It also pollutes in a very toxic way because of the contrails are in the air, actually. So it has, you know, the same carbon molecules have a different impact up there so i think we need to make sure that we're you know making rail um ship ferries all of those uh choices much easier for people and you know descent decentivizing you know cheap flights

which have benefited from the exemptions that the aviation industry has taken advantage of we did you know only 20 years ago people weren't making those choices, by the way. So they weren't these cheap bargain flights. It is actually a relatively recent phenomenon. Yeah, it's a recent phenomenon. But of course, the phenomenon was pounced upon by people who would love to have travelled but didn't have the money before and now it was affordable for them. I think the choice isn't between no travel and cheap travel.

It's better travel and nicer travel. And sometimes slow travel is more expensive. So right now, you know, going on the Eurostar, which for many people is much nicer and they'd like to do it, is more expensive than getting that cheap flight. And that shouldn't be the case. Can we have a quick word about COP? We now know it's going to happen next November 2021 in Britain. There aren't very many women. Well, I don't think there are any women officially involved in the British delegation, although Britain is in charge of this COP.

What do you think of that? It's a bit pants. It's really rubbish. I'm really surprised but not that surprised because there is a sort of small cabal of men who have chosen each other for the most senior positions and it's a matter of great regret I think I have to say I'm one of the

dinosaurs of the climate negotiations and I certainly wasn't asked to play any part in the UK's preparation I think in this country I put out a challenge I think there's no one else in the UK who's. I think in this country, I, you know, put out a challenge. I think there's no one else in the UK who's been to as many cops as I have. Because, you know, so I think it's not just me, but many women in the climate community are feeling a little bit excluded and wondering what's going on. Well, be interesting to see if anything

does happen to change that situation. Thank you very much. Thank you. Lawyer and activist Farhana Yameen, and she is number two in the Women's Hour Power List 2020 Our Planet. I know a lot of people enjoyed taking part and giving us their suggestions. And if you missed that programme yesterday, when we ran through the 30 names on the list, it's on BBC Sounds, of course. Now, here's another really interesting and successful woman, Jo Whitfield, first woman

to run a leading British grocery retailer. She's the CEO of Co-op Food. Jo, good morning to you. Good morning. I suppose the first question is, why are you the first woman to be in a job like yours? That seems remarkable. I know, it does, doesn't it? Do you know, I've asked myself that on many an occasion, actually, because I never in a million years thought it would be me. But actually, I think what was interesting when it did happen was just looking around and wondering where the other women were, actually,

and doing some research and really understanding that only 8% of the senior roles in our industry are actually held by women. So the pipeline isn't there. And we've got a lot of work to do to get that pipeline stronger, because there's fabulous talent in our industry that we need to bring to the fore. Right. So 92% of the top jobs are in the hands of men. We know that obviously men go food shopping, but on the whole, as most of our listeners would acknowledge, it tends to be usually left to the woman. So this is a crazy situation. Surely it's untenable. Yeah, I mean, you know, you've got to connect with your customers, haven't you? And as

you rightly say, I think 85% of all the shopping that's done in our households is influenced by women. So, you know, I've always believed that you should reflect the needs of your customers. You should truly understand what motivates them to shop with you, what they're looking for and need. And I think this connection between business and customers could be much stronger if we had really inclusive and diverse leadership pools.

Right. Let's talk about the co-op in lockdown. It's done really, really well. Profits up by, well, tell us in your part of the business, how are you doing? We're doing well. Yeah. I mean, it's been a really interesting period for everyone. It's been a real roller coaster. I mean, we started with panic buying at the beginning of the pandemic and then things settled. And, you know, it was really interesting for us. We've got two and a half thousand shops around the UK, some of them incredibly busy and some of them at the start incredibly quiet

because we've got a lot in city centres and obviously we were all told to stay at home. So it's been a real mixed picture and we're trading strongly. People are eating a lot more food at home, as we know, and are looking to cook more. And actually our colleagues have done a brilliant job of responding and working with communities as well, actually, to make a difference

in what's been a really tough time. And you have rewarded some of your employees. You announced recently you're going to pay half your employees the real living wage. That means half are not getting the real living wage. Why is that? Yeah, so the living wage really applies to all of our frontline workers, really. So, you know, a good proportion of our colleagues actually are in office space roles and are paid well.

And, you know, the other half of our colleagues are working in our stores and are hourly paid as opposed to monthly paid. So what we wanted to do was really reflect the great effort that everyone has put in and to really commit to making a real step forward and pay for our colleagues that deserve it. Yeah, I mean, just in case people listening aren't aware, the real living wage is £10.30 in London and about a pound elsewhere. It is not a great deal of money. And as I said, half your employees are not getting the real living wage. So just to clarify, the remainder are actually in very different roles

all around the organisation. So are holding roles in central functions, are monthly paid salaried individuals. What we wanted to do was to actually reflect that we could make a positive investment in pay for people in stores and in depots to just keep advancing salary right the way through the group. Right. Just to be clear, then we've got a co-op just very close to the BBC here. And you do. I rather like the fact that outside the shop now you'll always say welcome and then you'll give the location of a co-op just very close to the bbc here and you do um i rather like the fact that outside the shop now you'll always say welcome and then you'll give the location of the co-op so r says welcome to great portland streets co-op um does anybody in that shop earn

less than the the living wage not in the show so no no no so so at the moment we pay you know very very fairly and well relative to all of the other retail peer groups. So actually all of our colleagues in excess of the national minimum wage. And what we're looking to do is to get above that rate and get much closer to the living wage and to do that in a way which is really impactful, will be happening at speed and will be making a big difference for everyone in April. I think I asked this only because obviously we have all become more aware over the last couple of months of the key worker status of these people. And they are largely women working in food stores in particular, people who have been under a great deal of strain and upon

whom all of us have had to depend. I know you're keen to look after them, aren't you, and to make sure that they're not abused. I mean, it goes without saying that they shouldn't be, but we know that happens. Very much so. And, you know, it's great to talk to you this week because it is Respect for Short Workers Week. And we're taking a very active role alongside us in ensuring that the experiences of our colleagues is well understood. And we've been positively campaigning for change, both with government, just to get additional protections under the law for people who do suffer abuse and violence. And then as an organisation, we've been investing huge sums of money in helping keep our colleagues safe. So over £70 million over the last three years, and we'll spend the same again, just to try and tackle the issue in three ways. To protect our colleagues, then campaign for change around social attitudes and legislation.

And then our third avenue of activity is actually to make a difference in community, actually, and support community groups that are trying to tackle the causes of crime before it happens. Right. Panic buying, is it happening in this lockdown? My sense is that it isn't, although I did see a bloke the other day with a trolley full of loo roll. No, it's been much calmer this time round. I think everybody appreciated that, you know, if you just buy what you need, there's more than enough food to go around yeah um tell me i know that you actually have a meeting don't you i think i assume first thing on a monday morning where you look at what is selling well so what is selling well this week um do you know it's it's really interesting because as the weather's changed

become much cooler uh people are definitely enjoying their their saturday nights in so great sales of um you know pizza and celebrating with family. But we've actually seen a really interesting step up in Christmas lines. So mince pies, Christmas confectionery, a real sense that people are planning for Christmas and spreading their Christmas purchases over a longer period than they normally would, actually. If you buy mince pies now, are they still good?

They actually last forever, don't they, mince pies? Yeah, they're great. Yeah, you can buy them and enjoy them right the way through. Right. Is the co-op, it's not, well, I think you'd acknowledge this, it's not the cheapest shop, is it? It really isn't. Yeah, I mean, we're well positioned on value, but you're right, you know, Aldi and Lidl are discounters and they offer a very different level of value to us.

And we run our costs as tightly as we can. We operate, you know, smaller stores and have a very different kind of economic context as a result. But for us, it's always about the best combination of quality products and the best value we can give on price, you know, align with great service. And also staying true to some of the ethical credentials as well. You know, so, you know, we're big supporters of fair trade. All of our meat is 100 percent British. So for us, you know, value is about a combination of all of those pieces. And we we look to ensure that we are as effective and efficient as we can be to keep our prices as low as possible. And you pay your suppliers decently as well.

Very much so. We've got great long-term relationships with our suppliers. We like to build partnerships. That's our approach. Can I just ask you a little bit, and very briefly if you can, about the beginning of your career, Jo? I think that might have been a key moment. You were at Northern Foods and you got the opportunity to run a software project, although I don't think IT was really your specialism. And I wonder whether that was a turning point, because I guess you could have said no to that. opportunity to run a software project although I don't think IT was really your specialism and I wonder whether that was a turning point because I guess you could have said no to that you didn't say no you did it and now you're the only woman running a grocery store so tell me a little bit

about that. Yeah I mean there's been quite a few moments in my career where I've been given an opportunity to go and do something very different that I've had no experience in really as you say you know there's an IT project but also I moved across to run operations at Asda for the George clothing brand I built an international George business from a franchise point of view and I think the thing that I look back and and recognize is that I was given the chance to do those things because people thought I could do it, even though I didn't necessarily feel I've got the skills. Well, that isn't the key point there, though, that you weren't sure, but somebody else had faith in you. Absolutely. And, you know, I gave it a go. And, you know, each of those experiences were, you know, moments of real highs, real lows,

lots of personal testing of resilience, huge learning curves. But actually, each time you stretch yourself and do something that you weren't sure you could do, and actually you do it and you do it well, it just builds confidence for the next time that something big comes along. And are you aware of offering the same opportunities to other women in the business now? Oh, absolutely. So, you know, making sure that talent comes through has been part of the drumbeat of my career, really. And I've always sponsored and mentored talent, you know, both women, you know, men, you know, people from all kinds of different backgrounds to just really ensure that confidence and belief and an opportunity to stretch is what's vital and needed, I think, to help talent shine. And that's one of the reasons why I set up Grocery Girls, which is a network for the grocery industry. Because when I became CEO and realised there was only 8% of women in senior leadership roles, it just felt wrong.

And I knew there was great women out there. And I thought if I can connect them together, if we can talk about our own personal journeys really honestly and transparently, we can encourage and support each other, then actually, you know, that's how people make the breakthroughs because then they build their confidence and they try new things. Thank you very much for talking to us. That's Jo Whitfield, first woman to run a leading British grocery retailer. In her case, it's the Co-op. She's the CEO of Co-op Food. Obviously had a long and successful career in retail. At BBC Women's Hour is where you can contact us on social media. Nora says, shout out to all our key workers in supermarkets at night, stocking shelves and picking home deliveries.

Dan, my son, is doing that. Well, yes, thanks to Dan and many, many hundreds of thousands of others doing that really important, yes, thanks to Dan and many, many hundreds of thousands of others doing that really important work right now. The BBC 100 Women list is announced very soon. It's an annual list of influential and inspirational women from all over the world. And The Conversation, which is a world service programme, is going to have an edition with a global panel of women working towards a brighter future. And they'd like you to take part. What are the things you think

need to be tackled in the pandemic? What changes should we keep in a post-COVID world? Contact the conversation through their website for the opportunity to take part. And don't forget, you can call you and yours

with Winifred Robinson today. This is an important issue. What are your experiences of having a relative or a friend in a care home? This has been really, really tough. You can call 03700 100 444 to take part. The line's open at 11 o'clock and Winifred's on air with that programme round about a quarter past 12 today. Call you and yours on Care Homes.

Now, Shaila Kumari Singh-Berman is the creator of this year's installation for Tate Britain. Welcome, Shaila. How are you? I'm really good, thanks. It's great to meet you. I've always wanted to meet you, Jane. Oh, Shaila. You've won. Oh, I mean it. I'm not joking. Well, it's lovely to have both you and Farhana

with me in the studio this morning. We're all socially distanced, I should say. It's just lovely to have people here. Now, you are, as people may have picked up, you're a Scouser. You have Punjabi heritage. Yeah, both from Mom and Dad are from Punjab. Brilliant. And your installation at Tate Britain is, it's not actually,

well, it wasn't commissioned for Diwali, was it? But it happens to have been put up at the right time. Yeah, it's just fallen into, it's just fallen at the right time, really, because when they invited me to do it, that was a couple of weeks before the first COVID, they said to me, I just said, when's it going up? And they said, probably around about the second week of November.

And for some reason, I have no idea, being trying to rack my brains out, how I just remembered saying, I'm sure that's the week week of November. And for some reason, I have no idea, being trying to rack my brains out, how I just remembered saying, I'm sure that's the week of Diwali. Because Diwali changes, you know, because sometimes it's just like Easter. Sometimes it's in October and November. And I was going, how did I remember that?

And I was just racking my brains thinking, it's because I think I subscribed to the New Internationalist and it must have been in my diary or something. It's a brilliant coincidence. It's all worked out for you. Well, I'm sure it has. It's very hard to do justice on radio to what you've done. But tell

us a little bit about how it looks. I've got an image here, but it's black and white and doesn't really do any favours. It is hard to describe things visually on radio. So I'll have a go. You'll be better than me favours, so go on. Yeah, well, it is hard to describe things visually on radio, so I'll have a go. You'll be better than me, love, I tell you. Well, it is super, super, like, OTT in colour.

So you've got these gorgeous neons, which is like bendy neons, not glass neons, like they're made out of silicone. And, I mean, some of them are mega, mega gorgeous kitsch colours, you know, all the primary colours and that. And they're all like, so we've got different imagery, so you could describe it as. We've got deities like the Lakshmi goddess.

And we've got Ganesh. And we've got my dad's ice cream van. Well, we'll get onto to that in a moment. What's so important about this? And the pillars. And the pillars. And the steps. They're all lit up.

It's absolutely gorgeous. There is all sorts of things going on. Of course, you can't get into the gallery. So this is the only way you can see art at the moment. Yeah. And I'm dead lucky. I must be the luckiest artist on this planet because everything's closed. But you're not. You're open.

I know. I know. I mean, everyone would die to probably have gotten this commission. What is the connection to ice cream? What's the connection to it? Because my dad was an ice cream man. I know this, but they don't, Chyla. So tell us about that. Oh, well, when my dad came over from India,

he got a job at Dunlop, from Calcutta to Dunlop, because he was a magician in Calcutta when he was with Dunlop. And he was complaining about how all the posh Indian bosses were sort of pushing him around. So he said to the fellas at Dunlop,

listen, send me somewhere else. And they sent him to Dunlop in Speak. Of course they did. I know. send me somewhere else. And they sent him to Dunlop in Speak. Of course they did. I know. So it was amazing. And then I think he ran away, you know, typical Punjabi. And he just didn't want to be an entrepreneur. And then he met this fellow in a pub, Uncle Kelly.

He was Anglo-Indian and he introduced him to the ice cream trade. Hard ice cream at that time. And then he got a whippy van. It wasn't whippy, but three brothers from Punjab opened a factory in Jamaica Street in Toxteth. Right. And they were Jats and they threw a lot of money into this. It was more like a cooperative. And then my dad sent a message to India, to London,

to the village where we lived. And says, come over, because they're unskilled, and get an ice cream van from Crewe. Because you remember they built them in Crewe. That's where they make them, as you know. If the producers of Desert Island Discs are listening, just book Shaila. Because I think we haven't got the time for everything.

Oh, my God, yeah. No, it's fantastic. No, the ice cream van is part of the installation as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And reading about you and seeing what you do, it really took me back. I grew up in Liverpool in the 70s and the 60s, if I'm honest. Yeah. And things like Mr Whippy and screwball, screwball ice creams.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just for anyone who doesn't have, never had a screwball, what were they? Chewing them at the bottom of a plastic tub. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done an installation called Cornison Screwballs Go Vegas and I've covered them in glitter and it's huge and everybody loves it. But people do get a bit taken aback by the fact that they are called screwballs.

Oh, I hadn't thought about that. Yes, OK. Maybe that's not... Well, never mind. We've said it now, Shaila. Tell us about your education because I know, to put it mildly, and mind, we've said it now, Shaila. Tell us about your education, because I know, to put it mildly, and no-one will be surprised by this,

your mum and dad perhaps hadn't thought of you as doing this for a living, had they? They didn't really ask me about anything in terms of what I wanted to do for a living. Because if you think about it, they didn't go to school in India, so they're both illiterate. So I'd have to read my school report out, which meant I could change things, you know, from a C to a B and things like that.

That's outrageous. And so you just went to, I remember picking up my portfolio and going to Southport Art College, you know, to do my foundation. And, you know, portfolios are big, as you know. Yeah, A, O size. And my dad's going, what's that suitcase you're carrying? I mean, how dead sweet is that? And he goes to me, you can't take that on the train.

You must take the car because we all passed our driving test dead early because we had to go to drive from Freshfield Beach to town to stock up, you know. So we all passed our driving test when we were 17. I have to say this conversation is a feast for fans of the Mersey Riviera because it's all coming back. We've got the red squirrels at Freshfield. Oh no, they were gorgeous, yeah. Still are. We used to have to pay the National Trust

to go in there, you know, because there's a lot of discussion now, isn't it, about the National Trust, yeah. So it was gorgeous. I had a lovely childhood apart from having to clean the van every night, you know. And we'd add a tiger on top of the ice cream van. Hence, when you do go down to the Tate facade,

you'll see a Leon ice cream van because we'd add this giant ice cream van. And in those days, everybody put Batman and Robin or somebody over. And my dad put the tiger of Bengal on and he sold tiger nuts. So, and that's dead sweet because in a way, if you think about it, he was quite ahead of diversity to do something like that in those days. I mean, I think it's quite brave. But you know what?

It's a bit redneck land, isn't it, in Bootle? Well, I wouldn't comment on Bootle and I'm sure it's... Bootle. Bootle. Bootle, yeah. Has, well, I was going to ask about that. Were you ever victims of racism? Did you ever come up against that?

No, you know what? I know this is dead weird because, you know, the street we grew up in, Bootle, they really cared about us, you know. And I think like working class people in Liverpool, I mean, they just just they used to wash us and put us to bed and feed us I think they thought well this gorgeous lovely Indian lady

can't speak a word of English, we've got to help her and look after us because we had my big brother and my big sister and they'd come over, so I mean it was lovely the Sunday school opposite you know and the street parties in the street, you know. It was maybe a bit later when we moved to the other part of Bootle,

Hartford Road, when my mum and dad bought another house so they could house everybody come home from India. And so they had, like, a few lodgers. When they had to go and empty the electric meter, some of them did say, ooh, you know, the P word did occur. Did it? Yeah. And so, but I think it was because they were skinty,

they couldn't pay the rent. You would hope, obviously, that that kind of thing wouldn't happen now. Watching films about you and hearing about what you do, you are just an avid collector of stuff. You seem to just pick up bits of inspiration wherever you go. Has that always been the way you work? Probably to a certain extent,

because I sometimes find myself picking a bit of dirt up off the street, you know, and things like that. What to use? Well, yeah, I mean, I might find... Well, here's something really, really spooky. I was coming out of Planet Organic, I know that sounds posh, and staring at me on the pavement, I'm sure this must have been fixed up by my mum and dad from the heavens,

was a toy tiger. Well, that's a message, isn't it? That was really freaky and it was dead clean and so I picked it up off the floor and I was thinking oh my god, Covid, and then I thought, do you know what, I just have to pick it up and put it in my pocket. So, but I do spend far too much

money in paper chase. Okay, well we'll let that one lie on the file, Shaila. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Oh, I really enjoyed it. I really appreciate it. And I'm really going to miss you, Jane. All right.

There's no time for sentiment. Yeah. We'll do that later. Everybody shoot down to Tate Britain, please. It's until the end of February. Yes. It's open between, it's on between seven in the morning, two in the morning.

That was Shaila Kumari Singh-Berman. Now, not unconnected to our next item, which is about, and I hope you don't mind me saying this, Shaila, about older women and longer hair. This is after Jane Seymour, who's nearly 70, and I quoted her at the beginning, saying that she just wasn't going to cut her hair. She suited it long, and that was that.

Is she right? Who would dare disagree with her? Alison Walsh is a fashion journalist, writes for The Telegraph, runs her own blog site called That's Not My Age. And Ashley Gaunt is a hair stylist, works at Stephen Carey Hair in Mayfair in London. So Ashley, first of all, where do you stand on older women and longer hair? Well, I'm an older lady because I'm 53.

That's not old, she said quickly. And I've always had short hair because it suits me. I don't suit long hair. So I think it's a big cross between am I too old to have long hair or does long hair actually still really suit me? Because, you know, as you're getting older, your face shape changes, your skin tone changes. And I think you've got to look at the whole picture. It's all right saying I'm not getting rid of my hair because I love long hair.

I think you've got to maintain it to what would suit your skin tone, your face shape as you're getting older. But do you also have to make sure that your clothes match your hair? Now, this is a big point that i always say because we do get a lot of older ladies that come in uh and they think right because i'm getting older i'm going to cut my hair off and dye it all different bright colors which is fine if you continue it through with your fashion but with your clothing but a lot of ladies that are older they come in and they want something funky i want texture i want spiky hair trying to latch on to still being younger but actually it might not suit them because that's what i always say just go and have a proper consultation because

that's the only way that you're going to find out and go to a good hairdresser you know like somebody that's a bit more experienced maybe somebody that's in your age gap a hairdresser that's in your age yes i can understand yeah i guess that would make sense let's bring in allison um what do you think about this allison well i think uh i think i agree with jane seymour she's got a valid point i a valid point. I mean, she's always had her hair, she's always worn her hair long. That's how she likes it. It suits her. It's all about her personal style and identity. And she feels confident like that.

So why shouldn't she have her hair long? I think, you know, we've kind of moved on a bit from, you know, you've got to have short hair. You know, when your hair goes grey, you cut it short. I think, you know, today got to have short hair well you know when you go your hair goes gray you cut it short I think you know today we have more diversity so you can have long women older women can have long hair short hair gray hair dyed hair it's completely up to you and how you feel and what makes you feel confident yeah yeah definitely I think a confidence thing is is a key point as well because I think a lot of people think um you know they hide behind

their hair or it might make it might be a confidence booster to have longer hair and I think on some women long hair looks amazing I mean one of our clients Penny Lancaster you know she's got long hair and it looks phenomenal you know and um I think it's just having the right style is it suits your total look yeah um does the texture of your hair change ashley and what can you do to manage it when you get older i think that's another big thing about keeping your hair long if you are going to keep your hair long it's got to be maintained because you normally find that as you're getting grayer i mean i'm completely white and the texture of my hair has completely changed. I'm very lucky. I've got very thick hair.

But some people going through like menopause, they might have thyroid problem, any kind of medical problems. I mean, some people that are taking lots of medication, it does affect your hair. It either thins it out, makes it really coarse and brittle so i think it's fantastic that women can wear long hair but it's got to be maintained i've got a lovely tweet here from a listener called amanda who's sent us a photograph of her lovely long hair she says um i reject this premise mine is long i'm over 60 no idea if others think it suits me, nor do I think it's relevant. It's up to me and I resent anyone telling me otherwise. My body, my choice, she says. So, Alison. I completely agree, completely agree.

And I think there is this double whammy that women experience. It's ageism and sexism and it's sort of stereotyping women. And doing that, it feels really dated. We have moved on from that. You know, style is individual. Do what you want, wear your hair how you like it. No one is telling Mick Jagger that he should have he shouldn't have long hair at 77. You know, Keanu Reeves is the same age as me. He's 56. Is anyone telling him he should go for a trim? He can do what he can likes. So can we. So can we. You're absolutely right.

Can I say, though, Mick Jagger's an interesting point. He does get laughed at for dyeing his hair, doesn't he? I'm not sure whether he still does, but certainly I've seen images of him where, and look, I dye my hair, and we were only talking about that earlier in the studio. Mick has been a delicious plum for quite a few decades now hasn't he any any thoughts on that um what do you think ashley well i mean we do get a lot of

male of our male clientele that do have color in their hair and i think again it's a confidence boost for men it's their image you know like mick jagger has got this massive image um so i think he's probably continued coloring his hair because of his image. You know, he's still working. He's still out there. And fair, you know, good luck to him. I think he looks amazing. I think some men, I think with colour with men,

you've got to be very careful because it always throws off a lot of orange tones. Are you thinking of anyone in particular there, Ashley? I'm just trying to think. Yeah, there's somebody, isn't there? Actually, it's interesting, Alison, that the gentleman in question, since his recent setback, has let the colour go a bit, hasn't he?

Do you read anything into that psychologically? Oh, yeah, definitely trying to look a bit more distinguished, I think. Kind of like, you know, showing his wisdom and experience through the greyness of his hair and very little else, to be honest. All right, well, that's your view, not necessarily that of the BBC. Just a quick one, Alison, what does your hair look like? It is shoulder length, it's natural colour, which is sort of a mixture of, I call it grand, grey and blonde.

And it was dyed blonde for about 35 years. And when I'm, like I said, 56 now and I got to about 51 and I just thought, and I kept seeing my brother actually and thinking his hair looks really cool. I wonder what mine's like. So I just grew in the grey and I love it. All right. Well, it's Great to talk to you both, thank you Alison Walsh and Ashley Gaunt and a tweet from Sarah says

Bill Bailey has got long hair, he's my favourite on Strictly well Clara Amfo is my favourite but Bill is my second favourite but I actually want to go, I just want to cut Bill's hair I'm sorry, I do, I want to go up behind him and just cut my hair off Don't worry, I will do no harm to Bill Bailey. He's bringing us too much fun on a Saturday night at the moment.

And we're not getting fun anywhere else on a Saturday night, are we? So to your emails this morning, Marie says, I wonder if you could raise a question with Joe from the co-op. Well, I'm afraid it came in too late. But Marie says, I'm very frustrated by my local co-op where broccoli is individually wrapped and courgettes and peppers come in plastic wrapped packs of two as the supermarket has scales at the tills it seems very sad to me that so much plastic is still being used um yeah i think also during that conversation, I said the living wage is £10.30 in London and a pound elsewhere.

If I did say that, obviously many, many millions of people will really be struggling. It's a pound less elsewhere was what I meant to say. So let's get that clear. A lot of people, you will not be surprised to hear, just enjoyed Shaila. I think particularly people from the Merseyside region will have enjoyed her contribution. She deserves a whole show, says Paul. Yvonne says, Yes, OK, Yvonne, I get that completely and appreciate the moment.

No one's traveling anywhere but if you can get to London safely in the near future before the installation becomes unavailable in the new year then I would urge you to do so it's so cheering it really is and the Browns enjoyed that conversation Catherine and Peter best bit of radio we've heard for ages like listening to a chat between old friends yes I think there were times during that conversation with Shaila when we both forgot that we were actually on the radio. But nevertheless, that's not always a bad thing. Hair. Wendy says, I'm over 60 and although my hair is a smashing grey,

it is very long. I would never wear it down because it feels a bit silly and doesn't suit the over 60s face, says Wendy. I have it long because I'm able to do any hairstyle I feel like. and doesn't suit the over 60s face, says Wendy. I have it long because I'm able to do any hairstyle I feel like. That means I can look and feel different every day. Caroline, I took my young daughter for a haircut a couple of years ago. She had long hair and I've always had mine short.

As she sat in the hairdresser's chair, I said, could my daughter have a little bit off the length? She turned around with a look of horror and said, but I don't want a mummy haircut. I suddenly felt extremely old. Jilly says, I can't believe you're having this conversation. I've got long grey hair and I oil it after washing. I get compliments all the time. Please don't limit your sisters. Well, we're not limiting anybody.

That was our bit of fun item at the end of the programme today. Although the rest of the programme had elements of fun, let's be honest. Susan says, I don't know if at 57 I qualify as an older woman. No, you don't, Sue. But I'm baffled as to what possible relationship there is between a person's age and how long their hair is. Surely, like everything else, people should do what they want and not worry about what some other bossy people might think. I've always had long hair. When it's shorter, I wear it in bunches. And when it's long, I've got two plaits. My husband does a mean French plait. Ladies, do whatever you like with your hair. OK.

Snork Maiden. I'm 53 and have hair down to my bum. Why do people think it's age inappropriate for older women to have long hair? Or even weirder, why is it assumed to be more labour intensive having long hair rather than short? My maintenance regime is wash it, condition it, leave it to get on with whatever it wants to do. No hair dryers, no styling, no faff, no split ends. Short hair needs regular cuts and trims. I went over 30 years without going to a hairdresser. When I finally cracked a couple of years ago and got a cut, nobody noticed. I tried again a year or so later and again, not a single person I know spotted any difference.

I've given up and gone back to my natural state. Although a septuagenarian Mohican appeals. Snork Maiden, go for it. But you're only 53, so you've got a while yet, haven't you? What else? Jane says it seems a bit of a thing nowadays that as women get older they have their hair cut short i've been waiting to hear this subject discussed and i've often chatted with my own hairdresser about it i did exactly that in my mid-50s a structured

asymmetric cut a bit spiky and i love it when i was a little girl i yearned for long hair but my mum wouldn't let me i had it blowwaved in the 50s and 60s. As soon as I could, I grew it and kept it long for the next 25 years. Then, bit by bit, I started to have it in slightly shorter styles. I think what really made me take the plunge was the amount of time it took every day to style it. It just took ages to get dry, and I was swimming nearly every day as well. Another thought, but still on the subject of hair, where are the girls with short hair? At the schools where I have connections it's very rare to see a child under 12 with a short hairstyle. The dictates of peer pressure I guess.

I wonder whether you mean to see a child over 12 because I think you're right Jane, certainly both my daughters have got very, very long hair. So have all their mates. But at school, I was the girl with just sticky out, goofy hair, not especially long because my mother said I couldn't have it that long because I'd never get it dried. And of course, she was right. Cordelia says my beautiful mom is in her 70s, a brilliant local politician and academic, and has the most wonderful long hair. She always wears it up in a stunning loose bun,

but it's clearly long hair. I'm 45 and I plan to follow her example. Neither of us have ever had short hair. You never need to feel you should cut your hair. Always wear it, however it makes you feel best. Cordelia, thank you. That feels like a positive place to end the podcast today. Tomorrow, Jessica Crichton's here

talking about what's been going on behind the scenes at Downing Street and wouldn't you like to know? Her guests will include two women who have certainly been there and done it. Katie Perio, head of communications for Theresa May and Angie Hunter, who ran Tony Blair's office. I'll be listening. That's tomorrow. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.