Woman's Hour - Woman’s Hour Power List, No 10 - Women behind the scenes, Moving house, Nadine Shah, Older women and long hair

Episode Date: November 21, 2020

The Woman’s Hour Power List reveal celebrates women from across the UK who are making a significant contribution to the health and sustainability of our planet. Number 2 on the list is environmental lawyer Farhana Yamin.Boris Johnson’s government has been criticised for its lack of women at the top table. The dramatic departure of Dominic Cummings and Lee Cain from Downing Street has led to calls for a female led reset at Number 10. We hear from Katie Perrior, former advisor at number 10 and Anji Hunter who was Tony Blair’s “gatekeeper” and longest serving aide.The appeal of moving house. Jane Christmas has written a book about the 32 house moves she’s made in 66 years. Linda Hill has moved just once in 37 years of marriage.Singer songwriter Nadine Shah talks about her latest album Kitchen Sink which explores the themes of fertility, tradition & identity. Older women and long hair - the dos and don’ts of hair care as you age with fashion journalist Alyson Walsh and hair stylist Ashley Gaunt.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, a very good afternoon and welcome to this, the highlight of your weekend. Weekend Woman's Hour, the best of our Woman's Hour week. It's been a good one this week. We'll discuss in a moment or two women behind the scenes at number 10. What is the culture like at Downing Street these days? And this is controversial. Big reaction from listeners this week to a conversation about whether women over 50 should have long hair.

There is this double whammy that women experience. It's ageism and sexism, and it's sort of stereotyping women, and doing that, it feels really dated. No-one is telling Mick Jagger that he shouldn't have long hair at 77. Keanu Reeves is 56. Is anyone telling him he should go for a trim? You'd be amazed how many people had a view on that one. We'll talk about Moving House as well,

and there's music from Nadine Shah. First of all, we launched our Power List for 2020 on Monday's programme and ran through all 30 names on the Women's Hour 2020 Power List, all about our planet this year, the Power List. There were hundreds of suggestions from you and our judges whittled the names down to just 30 really impressive women from different parts of Britain doing all sorts of different work to improve our planet.

Well worth hearing that programme in full if this is your sort of thing. But over the course of the next couple of weeks, between now and the end of what passes for this year, which has been pretty terrible, we are going to inject some positivity in your life and introduce you to all 30 of the women on our power list. And here's one that you ought to know about. She's number two in the list.

And I suppose the idea of reaching net zero emissions is mentioned so often, it's actually very easy to forget that somebody did come up with it. And that someone was lawyer Farhana Yameen, an environmental lawyer and an expert in international climate negotiations. She got net zero by 2050 accepted as a target in the Paris Agreement. And here she is. I'm a Pakistani. I came to this country when I was about nine. I qualified as a lawyer in 1991 and started working by fluke for the small island states via a charity that was established in this country. And it's really important for me to understand, to say, I would like to be better known because of the work that I've done to represent, you know, the voice of the vulnerables in these UN negotiations.

Take us a little bit further into your career. So the small island states or nations, what are they and what are they up against? Well, many of them are just a metre above sea level rise. For example, the Coral Atoll nations, including the Marshall Islands that I represented. So they've always known right from the beginning, from 1989, when the science became clear that this climate change would affect them and be an existential threat. They were particularly concerned about sea level rise at that time, because we didn't know about things like ocean acidification. We didn't know about saltwater intrusion in that way. So they banded together in 1989 onwards, as 44 countries now, small islands and low lying atoll states, and they

clubbed together so that they can punch above their way politically and diplomatically otherwise they would be ignored in these you know geopolitical power blocks that you have at the moment. Right so for these people quite simply climate change was lived experience it was happening to them it was happening to them. It's absolutely so there's no such thing as natural weather now. There's only the changed climate and they experience the impacts of climate change daily from droughts to floods, to storms, to cyclones, to saltwater intrusion, what's called king tides that are ravaging, you know, these countries as we speak. What people also need to know about you is that you were the person who

came up with the idea or the concept of net zero emissions. Now, this is bandied around all the time now by people who do understand what it means and by people who perhaps don't understand what it means. So I'm going to ask you, what is it? What are we talking about here? Well, the concept is already embedded in the climate change treaties, which is to bring the overall level of emissions down to a safe level through mitigation, reducing greenhouse gases, and through enhanced uptake of them or removals of them. So the net concept is to reduce the emissions we emit to zero, the polluting gases, and to allow trees and reservoirs to take up some of those emissions where we can't reduce them. So you have a net effect.

And really simply, by doing what? By cutting out all fossil fuels, because fossil fuels in the end, you know, are the largest contributor to global warming. And to people who say, yes, but Britain's only one of the least worst polluters here. What about China? What do we say to them? And most of the other countries are catching up and now are bigger emitters. But we have a real leadership role to pave the way and also model a new way of, you know, generating power in our economy through renewables. Back in the day, back in, we're talking the early 90s, aren't you? Do you think you were naive? Did you actually believe that scientific expertise would trump big business and that you could change the world? I absolutely did believe that. I thought, you know, armed with law and science and the economic case for climate action, we would be able to influence, you know, politicians and that they would act in the long term interests. And I guess I totally underestimated how big business,

especially the fossil fuel companies, would fight back, you know, underhand in many ways and run disinformation campaigns and use their vast budgets. These are some of the richest organisations in, you know, world human history. And they would use their budgets to lobby, to greenwash, to, you know, brand themselves as green leaders when they weren't, you know. Presumably some governments went along with all this. Yeah, these are very influential players in the global economy. You know, oil is still one of the largest traded commodities, and we were reliant on it, we're still reliant on it. And so they actually stopped progress and said, essentially, you know, let countries that have forests,

you know, grow more have forests you know grow more of those forests let's put the burden on those countries to suck up emissions via trees and afforestation or let's invest in carbon capture and storage. All of these things allow them to continue emitting and expanding fossil fuels. Right and of course we may not make stuff in this country anymore but we are buying it from countries that do make the stuff we need. Yeah. So the UK, you know, has outsourced many of its dirty industries to countries like China, to many of the developing countries and is asking them now to be cleaner than we were able to manage domestically at home. Can we have a quick word about COP? We now know it's going to happen next November 2021 in Britain.

There aren't very many women, well, I don't think there are any women officially involved in the British delegation, although Britain is in charge of this COP. What do you think of that? It's a bit pants. It's really rubbish. I'm really surprised, but not that surprised because there is a sort of small cabal of of men who have you know chosen each other for the most senior positions and it's a you know it's a matter of great regret I think I have to say I'm one of the dinosaurs of the

climate negotiations and I certainly wasn't asked to play any part in the UK's preparation I think in this country I you know put out a challenge I think there's no one else in the UK's preparation. I think in this country, I put out a challenge. I think there's no one else in the UK who's been to as many COPs as I have. So I think it's not just me, but many women in the climate community are feeling a little bit excluded and wondering what's going on.

That is Fahana Yameen, and that will be interesting, won't it? Will she get to go to COP when it takes place in the UK, in Scotland, in fact, next November? So on Thursday this week, the programme was presented by Jessica Crichton and she spoke to some inspiring young activists who feature on the Power List, Maya Rose Craig, Michaela Loach and Holly Gillibrand.

Holly is standing up for the environment by leaving school every Friday and taking part in the School Strike for Climate and Fridays for Future movements. She also writes passionately about rewilding. I've always loved nature. I've always wanted to go outside. I always loved seeing wildlife. And then I reached a point, I think when I was 13, that I started to open my eyes to all the issues it was facing. And then I suddenly thought I can't just not do something because nature, what I've always loved, is threatened with all of these different problems, these issues. And I couldn't just stand back and not do anything.

So, yeah, it was 13, I think, when I decided I was going to do something. And I think it was after I went to a Chris Packham event and he was talking about all these things. You're 15 now Holly so you're still at school just tell me a bit about what it's like balancing your school work with your activism work and also having a public profile. Well if someone has figured out how to balance activism of school work could they please let me know I mean I like school sometimes I love learning about about you know science and maths and English but at the same time it sometimes feels like it's all a bit pointless because you know you go onto the news and all of these awful things are happening and then you think why am I wasting my time of school work when I should be doing activism so it is very

difficult and then of course you've got to think about, you know, staying ground and spending time with family, with friends and just trying to have a bit of normality in your life. I'm not quite sure if I've managed it yet, but, you know, it's very difficult, but it's just something as an activist you want to hear more about what Maya Rose and Michaela have been doing, go back to Thursday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. You'll find that on BBC Sounds. But as I say, much more about our power list between now and the end of the year. And the full list of all 30 inspiring women

is on our website bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. And there's also lots of good stuff about the Power List on our social media, on Twitter and on Instagram at bbcwomanshour. Boris Johnson's government has been criticised by some for its apparent lack of women at the top table

and what other people are calling a toxic boys' club atmosphere behind the scenes. While things might be about to change, the departure of adviser Dominic Cummings and communications chief Lee Cain have certainly changed the situation, at least superficially. The Prime Minister's fiancé, Carrie Simmons, is a former Conservative Party strategist. The head of Number 10's policy unit is Munira Mirza, who's described as the PM's nonsense detector. And his new press chief is Allegra Stratton.

Jessica Crichton spoke to Katie Perrie who was an advisor to Theresa May and to Angie Hunter who was Tony Blair's longer serving aide. Jessica asked Katie if she believed there was indeed a laddish culture at Downing Street. Yes, there have been some moves in the last few years to change that. There's Conservative and Labour, more female MPs than ever before. It's always tough to get more women into Parliament

and into the back rooms generally. They are long hours. You don't see your children. In fact, if you say something about being a mother, you're looked down on as if to say, oh, you're just a mum, what do you know? It's almost unprofessional to talk about children. And yet we are meant to be in government talking to thousands and thousands of families out there around the issues and the policies that matter to them. So I always felt that very puzzling that they didn't really want to hear from my point of view on a lot of those things. It doesn't matter whether it's pay discrimination. I was paid less than my predecessor and my successor. And afterwards, people would contact me, lawyers would contact

me and say, you know you could take them to the cleaners. No, I'm not really interested in that. But it is a point that not only are we asking, we need more women to work behind the scenes, but we need to pay them properly. And we need to listen to them when they have views. So the prime minister now has Allegra Stratton, who is very capable, Munira Mirza, who does the policy at Number 10 down the street, very capable too. And of course, Carrie is in the background giving her advice. And so I actually think that this is a moment to reset. The boys have had a chance and they've failed at it,

so maybe it's time to give the women a chance. Angie, what's your opinion? The macho, laddish culture within government. Was that your experience as well? No, actually, not so much. I mean, Tony was not a macho sort of guy. I mean, he had a high-powered working wife who was earning more than him.

And there were actually a lot of senior women in Downing Street in my time, civil servants like Claire Sumner and Sharon White, who's actually now running John Lewis. A really good team of political advisers and policy people. And don't forget, you know, we had a massive influx of female MPs when we alistair campbell's the one that's probably got the most macho label and you know a bit of a bruiser the one with the biggest ego but i don't think you'd find many people he's worked with that you know don't really admire him and respect him and like him and he certainly never got too big for his boots with us which i think

dominic cummings and lee cain did i mean maybe nick timothy did too katie you know i don't know but i've just been imagining what it's like in there i mean the rooms are quite small quite sort of side by side you know i'm wondering which rooms they've all met in and had these great rows and whoever heard them and that's sunday I mean that Lee Cain and the Prime Minister had in the garden and I'm thinking where in the garden and where did they cook this sausage and mash and swede I mean all the sort of the lurid details that have been coming out of the of the dysfunction those tweets you know a princess emoji and the two squirrels. And I'm thinking, why go to all that length? You know, why not just do the princess emoji?

I mean, it's clearly been extremely dysfunctional and it was time for a good clean sweep. And I totally agree. I think Allegra is a really, really good appointment. She's been around. She's an experienced hand. And I think with Munira Musa there, the head of policy, you know, two women in the two most powerful positions

in Downing Street. And, you know, I hope you'll carry on listening to Carrie. And why not? You know, she's got experience. She's got expertise in political communications. She knows the Conservative Party. And I'm sure she wants what's best for you. Yeah.

And how important is it then that these women now that have these top positions club together? Does there need to be a coalition formed, a kind of unofficial agreement between these women to ensure that they can do their jobs to the best of their ability? No. I mean, women have always sort of been able to work together. I mean, they're going to be, I think, more discreet,

perhaps more practical, have less ego, and generally speaking, have better manners. Because they're women? Yeah, yeah. And I think there'll be a reassertion of sanity and order. You know, I'm all for it. I wonder what you've made, Katie, of Theresa May being constantly criticised for her reliance on her aides.

Do you feel as though Boris himself is being quite heavily led by his advisers? I think that Boris would agree that maybe that went a little bit too far. And so this has been the moment to reset and pull it back. I think the whole court of Number 10 and Number 11 Downing Street, it's got out of hand. I used to get very cross at Number 10 when I found out that special advisors were on Twitter giving their views every day. And I'd say to them, why does anyone care what you think? Only your minister should care what you think and only your prime minister should care what you think. We are here to serve. It is our job to serve the prime minister as he or she suits these fits. And too many people have too much ego and want to build up their own standing on it.

And I think they forget that. And I think that in the last few months, what we've seen is people that care more about their own image than they do of the prime ministers. And I think that is the biggest letdown of all, really, that he's been badly served in that scenario. And the people that he habits around them now

and hopefully the people he hires in the future won't have that interest, won't be driven by that. You know, when I started number 10, someone said to me, don't forget to, you know, get get all the stuff down so you can write your book. And I said, I have no intention of writing a book, because I'm actually got an intention of doing the job. And that's a 24 hours a day job. And that's hard enough in itself. But I think too many people now go into it with that thought and that mind about how much money I'm going to earn when I leave, what I'm going to do with this, you know,

this is going to be the career balance that I need. And I don't think women think about it so much. I think that their solution, you know, their fixers, their problem solvers, they just want to get the job done. What have you made of the way the press has handled Carrie Simons? And they've painted her almost as some kind of Machiavellian villain. I've seen her described as blonde assassin, as Princess Nut-Nut. I mean, is it too simplistic to just say that the media is misogynistic in its approach towards her? I think it's complicated,

but I do think that there are some people who do take it too far. If Carrie was applying for a job at Number 10 tomorrow in terms of a special advisor, she would get a job because she has that background and that history. She knows the party well, as Angie said. She knows politics well. She knows many of these politicians. So for her to say, well, now that I am just the mother of your baby, now I've got to shut up, have I? I haven't got a view anymore.

So I think she's perfectly entitled. And I would rather the prime minister go home in the evening and discuss the things that were on his mind and talk them out rather than be alone, quite frankly, and not have anybody close to him to be able to talk those out with. You know, other prime ministers in the past have relied on their partners. I don't think they should be any different. What do you think, Angie, and these claims of a petticoat government? It just made me laugh out loud that it's just so predictable. It's so outdated. I mean, even the word petticoat is, I mean, who remembers what a petticoat is? I mean, of course, our media are obsessed with prime minister spouses, you know, especially if they're female. They always have been. I'm sure Carrie's tough enough to withstand it all.

I mean, it's a very odd way to live, you know, and start a family. You know, you're literally living above the shelf. Cherie Blair and Sam Cameron and probably Philip May too, Katie, you know, will testify that people just drop into your sitting room, you know, for urgent talks, you know. There's sort of this unending and enormous pressure uh people phoning up at eight o'clock in the evening saying oh sorry forgot to tell you would you be on the downing street steps tomorrow 8 a.m for a photo call with

boris and the royal british legion and on top of that you know carrie's had literally her partner nearly dying on the job. And then she gets called Princess Nut Nuts. You know, I think she's quite within her rights. We want a few changes. That's Angie Hunter. And you also heard from Katie Perrier, both talking to Jessica Crichton on Woman's Hour this week.

Now, how many houses, how many places have you lived in? Does the idea of moving, does it fill you with joy or dread, total dread? Jane Christmas has led a kind of life which to many of us feels positively nightmarish. She's made 32 moves in 66 years. Linda Hill has moved just once in 37 years of marriage. She is now 59. Jane currently lives in Bristol, she told me, on Friday's programme. So how did all this moving around start? I was either blessed or cursed with a mother who was a serial renovator and mover. And she was the one that just kept uprooting our family

over and over again. My father was somehow nonplussed by any of this. And it just carried on. And I know I vowed that I was never going to do this and never going to put any children that I had through this because invariably, when there was a house to renovate, we were, my brother and I were called into to do the, uh, the work. And so it, it just sort of went on and on and on. And unfortunately over time it, I guess the bug sort of just sat with me and, and, um, um, you know, the apple doesn't fall from far from the tree as they say. And, um And through my life, I just ended up moving as well.

Many times at university, when I was changing jobs, when I entered the workforce. And then, of course, I was married and then divorced and then remarried and then divorced again. So that upheaval also necessitates moves. So that's that's how it sort of began. Actually, your book, which is called Open House, A Life in 32 Moves, begins with you living in what to some people would be an absolute idyll, Brixham. But it's the seagulls there that got you down and you move from there. Oh, I know. Have you been to Brixham? Have you seen the seagulls? They're the size of turkeys and they are so vicious. It was just, it was intolerable. Like I never could believe that they would be so awful. But it was that. And there were other little things too. We all dream of retiring to that kind of lifestyle. And it's different once you're there. I think we lasted three years. Linda, I know that you are,

you really are someone who would think very, very carefully about moving house. How long have you been in your present home in Lincolnshire, Linda? Almost 34 years in February. And is this your dream home? No. This is what I love. But the trauma of moving the first time has put me off moving completely. I would never do it again. Right. What was so bad about it? Well, initially we were meant to be moving six weeks after the date we actually moved. And I was in hospital having my tonsils out. And my husband came to visit me.

I woke up with him next to the bed in hospital. And instead of saying, how are you? Is it painful? He said, sign this. We're moving on Friday. And because I'm allergic to dust and house dust mites, I wasn't allowed out of hospital. I went home to my parents. My poor husband had to do the whole move on his own in four days and then the day after we moved in we had a court summons for non-payment of rates for the previous owners we had the milkman knock on the door and request 30 something pounds for non-payment of milk bill the paper shop put a bill through the door and to be perfectly honest within the first week of being here I vowed I would never ever move again I tell you what Linda 34 years ago and you haven't forgotten a thing about that have you the

trauma it was incredibly traumatic and and the the couple who lived here before had three very small boys all under the age of seven um so for example when we we took up the carpet can you imagine carpet in the in the downstairs loo underneath the underlay was somewhat akin to golden syrup or or honey i mean thanks for that linda um i just want to bring in uh carol ingram who joins us now from uh just outside glasgow aren't you carol now tell everybody how many times you well you were obliged to move house because your husband was in the military. That's right. He was in the military for 25 years

and over that time we had 16 different addresses. Sometimes we were in one place for maybe 18 months, two years, but sometimes it was only for nine, ten months and that's moving within the uk moving to europe moving overseas so yeah we've moved a lot and no choice in the matter because mind to someone in the military you've got to go with him well you have and you did and you went any number of times with your two sons now um you emailed the program and explained that they um they have autism.

And that means that I would imagine that moving house would be something they'd absolutely loathe. How did you manage that? Lots of planning, list after list after list. Fortunately, I'm quite organised. I don't move because of, in spite of, or just organised anyway. But yeah, both of them very particular about how their rooms are. So that's the last thing on the truck, first thing off the truck, and then replicate how their rooms

looked pretty much from one house to the next as best we could. So make sure that the right trains are sitting on the right surface and the walls are the same colour and all that sort of thing. So yeah, an added bonus another list of things to do

so take a picture of one room and make sure we had that picture ready to put everything out in the new house each and every time Wow, it's phenomenal actually Carol and you take it all in your stride clearly, I know you have now settled you were telling me

Yes, I'm calm now you asked me a Yes, I'm calm now. Yes. You asked me a week after I've moved. No, you're having a richly deserved, wonderful time, I know, living just outside Glasgow. I think Carol told me earlier she was about 20 minutes from Glasgow, half an hour from Loch Lomond. How bad can that be?

Sounds absolutely brilliant. Jane, do you honestly think that the pattern is set in childhood? You describe your own mother's attitude, and you say yourself that you think it might be just in the blood. I think that there is that. I mean, as I talk about in the book, too, I mean, there are a couple of reasons. When we moved into the house that we're in now in Bristol and we were renovating it, it really just got to me as I was, you know, trying to peel the wood chip wallpaper off the walls. And anybody who's done that knows what a wonderful bit of therapy that is. And as you're doing that sort of repetitive motion, your mind starts spiraling back to memories.

And I began to ask myself, why have I moved this much? And how many times have I stripped wallpaper? And then I began to count up the number of homes that I had lived in. And then I looked at my past and went, yes, you know, my mother was really had an impact on that behavior for me. But also, when I was about 30, I was raped. And I never told anybody about it. And it was something that I carried around for a very long time. And I realized, in just sort of charting the years since that experience, that I found that by agitating my environment, I was able to sort of obscure that memory reel that just keeps replaying in your mind about the event. Anybody who's been

through a traumatic experience knows that you just keep replaying that event over and over again. But if I, when I moved, I would stir up all this chaos and then renovating would be adding even more to it. And I could push those bad memories to the back. So this was a real revelation to me. You know, it's one thing to keep blaming your mother, but then there are other things too. So now understanding why I have that behaviour, it has actually caused me to settle down a bit. And plus, I have a husband who absolutely refuses to move again. So that sort of put paid to all that. That was Jane Christmas. And you also heard from Linda Hill. Mary says, as a military wife with 22 house moves,

the worst thing wasn't the actual move. And I didn't know this happened. And it does sound alarming. Sorry to go back to Mary's email. The actual worst thing was not the move, but the cleaning of the married quarter at March Out. It had to look better than when you moved in and that wasn't easy when you had three small children.

A warrant officer would inspect the house wearing white gloves and woe betide you if it didn't pass. It was a blot on your record. Jem says, oh goodness, we finally move house next week, a whole year after originally selling. The conveyancing process has been so slow. There must, says Jem, be a better system. Yeah, that's pretty heartfelt, I think. And Mark says, The ongoing discussion about moving house

fails to appreciate the privilege inherent in the situation the stress of renovating the stress of moving from one tied house to another tied house the stress of upsizing and downsizing many people will never be able to afford these things many people have to move from one substandard rented house to another at the whim of unsavoury landlords. Many people in the current economic climate are faced with the prospect of having their homes repossessed or entering into arrears that they will never be able to clear. A good point, well made Mark. Thank you very much for that. Nadine Shah was on Women's Hour this week. She was talking about her latest and much-acclaimed album, which explores themes like fertility, tradition and identity.

First of all, you're going to hear tracks from the album, the title track Kitchen Sink and Club Cougar and Prayer Mat. Don't you worry what the neighbours think They're characters from kitchen sink. Forget about the curtain twitches. Call me pretty, make your manoeuvre. One year younger, call me a cougar. Let's travel versus renewable.

There are fantasies in our world. That was the voice of Nadine Shah. Here she is in conversation with Jessica Crichton. Why did she choose Kitchen Sink as the title? Kitchen Sink realism was like it was a British cultural movement in the late 1950s and the early 1960s in art and film and theatre. And typically the protagonists were angry young men who were disillusioned with modern society. And I suppose here I am, 2019, 2020, an angry young woman, disillusioned myself with much of modern day society, I suppose. And then

there's the connotations of the kitchen sink and a woman's role and place in the household. So I think that's pretty much where the album title came from. You said in that sentence, angry and disillusioned. Why so? How long have we got? Oh, all the time in the world. Come on, let's get deep, Nadine.

I mean, did it start before my 30s? I think it did start before my 30s, but I noticed it more and more. You know, when I got to 30, 31, 32, these conversations where people were openly commenting on, you know, on my life choices, you know. Nadine, why haven't, you're not going to have a child? You know, it's time's getting on, tick tock not going to have a child? You know, it's it's time's getting on TikTok.

Genuinely, people had said to me, TikTok and all of this, all of this pressure. Many of my friends have children and and it's a beautiful, wonderful thing. Having children is a gorgeous, beautiful thing. And getting married is a beautiful thing also. But the constant reminder and people's assumptions that they are allowed to have these conversations with me it it really did start to frustrate me and there was there was many other things going on that people didn't know about when they were mentioning my fertility people didn't know that I have endometriosis they didn't know it's a very difficult conversation for me to

have and all of this kind of it contributed to this anger, I suppose, I was experiencing at the time, and anxiety. And then I started having this conversation with my friends more openly. How do you feel? Do you feel pressured to get married? Do you feel pressured to have a child? All of this, that's where the album came from, really, from those conversations with my close friends it's a very real worry I'm in my 30s as well Nadine and I think I definitely

sympathize or at least relate to what you're saying before we listen to one of the tracks on the album called Trad just tell us a little about what it's about the concept and and how you came to writing it because I think that's relevant to what you've just been saying yeah that was the I think actually the lyric for Trad it was the first lyric that I had for the whole album all I had written down was shave my legs freeze my eggs will you want me when I'm old that was the first lyric that I had and I kind of had it sat there for a while and I kept coming back to it. And everything that I was feeling were related.

It's kind of all encapsulated in that one lyric, I suppose. If we're talking about the policing of women's bodies and advertisements telling me, are you beach body ready? Let's hear it. Let's have a listen now, Nadine. Great. I shave my legs, freeze my eggs. Will you want me when I am old?

Wow, what a fabulous track, Nadine. Now, these are big issues that you're discussing, you're talking about, and they're very personal. What is it that inspires you to use your voice in this way what makes you want to put yourself out there um I mean I do I do regret it a lot of the time oh really um okay yes because it's a bit like um my mother said it's a bit like hanging up your dirty laundry for everybody to see yes yes because it is it is really exposing but um I mean these are these are my stories but they're also from these conversations I've had with other people these are many other people's

stories and I wasn't hearing these stories being told in music and I felt a kind of I mean it sounds a bit grandiose but I found I found it a kind of a duty of sorts to write about these subjects the duty why because I wasn't hearing it anywhere else and I think it's important to have these discussions in art and I just I wasn't you know I was seeing definitely in film I could that these stories are being told but in music not so much and especially when you know youth is currency and especially in music it's a really sad thing in music. There are not a lot of older female musicians. Why that is, I don't know. And, you know, in 2016, we had, I think,

maybe four or five men in their 60s releasing albums that were in the top 10, and hardly any of women in their 60s and I really I want to hear their stories I mean my wish is that Amy Winehouse was still alive and I would have loved to have heard what she would have been making when she's 60 years old to hear her stories and what it's like to be a woman who is 40 who is 50 who 60? And I just wanted to give my version of things. Nadine Shah chatting to Jessica Crichton on Woman's Hour this week. Now, the actress Jane Seymour, very, very glamorous still.

Oh, I shouldn't say still, should I? She's just very, very glamorous. She's nearly 70 and she's been writing about her refusal to cut her trademark long hair. She's just not having it. And why should she? she doesn't want to? This week on the programme, then, we invited Alison Walsh, a fashion journalist who writes for The Telegraph and runs her own blog site

called That's Not My Age, and hair stylist Ashley Gaunt, who works at Stephen Carey Hair in Mayfair in London to debate the issue of older women and longer hair. Here's Ashley. I'm an older lady because I'm 53. That's not old she said quickly. And I've always had short hair because it suits me. I don't suit long hair so I think it's a big cross between am I too old to have long hair or does long hair actually still really suit me

because you know as you're getting older your face shape changes your skin tone changes and I think you've got to look at the whole picture it's all right saying I'm not getting rid of my hair because I love long hair I think you've got to maintain it to what would suit your skin tone your face shape as you're getting older but do you also have to make sure that your clothes match your hair? Now, this is a big point that I always say, because we do get a lot of older ladies that come in and they think, right, because I'm getting older, I'm going to cut my hair off and dye it all different bright colours,

which is fine if you continue it through with your fashion. But a lot of ladies that are older, they come in and they want something funky, I want texture, I want spiky hair, trying to latch on to still being younger, but actually it might not suit them. Because that's what I always say, just go and have a proper consultation

because that's the only way that you're going to find out and go to a good hairdresser. You know, like somebody that's a bit more experienced, maybe somebody that's in your age gap, a hairdresser that's in your age gap that can understand. Yeah, I guess that would make sense. Let's bring in Alison. What do you think about this, Alison?

I think I agree with Jane Seymour. She's got a valid point. She's always worn her hair long that's how she likes it it suits her it's all about her personal style and identity and she feels confident like that so why shouldn't she have a hair long you know we've kind of moved on a bit from you know you've got to have short hair well you know when you go your hair goes gray you cut it short I think today we have more diversity so so older women can have long hair, short hair, grey hair, dyed hair. It's completely up to you and how you feel

and what makes you feel confident. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think a confidence thing is a key point as well because I think a lot of people think, you know, they hide behind their hair or it might be a confidence booster to have longer hair. And I think on some women, long hair looks amazing. I mean, one of our clients, Penny Lancaster, you know, she's got long hair and it looks phenomenal.

I think it's just having the right style that suits your total look. Yeah. Does the texture of your hair change, Ashley? And what can you do to manage it when you get older? I think that's another big thing about keeping your hair long. If you are going to keep your hair long, it's got to be maintained. Because you normally find that as you're getting greyer, I mean, I'm completely white. And the texture of my hair has completely changed.

I'm very lucky I've got very thick hair. Some people going through menopause, they might have thyroid problem, any kind of medical problems. I mean, some people that are taking lots of medication, it does affect your hair. It either thins it out, makes it really coarse and brittle. So I think it's fantastic that women can wear long hair, but it's got to be maintained

I've got a lovely tweet here from a listener called Amanda who's sent us a photograph of her lovely long hair she says um I reject this premise mine is long I'm over 60 no idea if others think it suits me nor do I think it's relevant it's up to me and I resent anyone telling me otherwise my body my choice she says so Alison So, Alison. I completely agree. And I think there is this double whammy that women experience. It's ageism and sexism. And it's sort of stereotyping women. And doing that, it feels really dated.

We have moved on from that. You know, style is individual. Do what you want, wear your hair how you like it. No one is telling Mick Jagger that he shouldn't have long hair at 77. Keanu Reeves is the same age as me, he's 56. Is anyone telling him he should go for a trim? He can do what he likes. So can we, so can we.

Exactly, you're absolutely right. Can I say, though, Mick Jagger's an interesting point. He does get laughed at for dyeing his hair, doesn't he? I'm not sure whether he still does, but certainly i've seen images of him where and look i dye my hair and we were only talking about that earlier in the studio um mick has been a delicious plum for quite a few decades now hasn't he any any thoughts on that um what do you think ashley i mean we do get a lot of male of our male clientele that do have color in their hair. And I think, again, it's a confidence boost for men. It's their image.

You know, like Mick Jagger has got this massive image. So I think he's probably continued colouring his hair because of his image. You know, he's still working. He's still out there. Good luck to him. I think he looks amazing. I think with colour with men, you've got to be very careful

because it always throws off a lot of orange tones. Are you thinking of anyone in particular there, Ashley? I'm just trying to think. Yeah, there's somebody, isn't there? Actually, it's interesting, Alison, that the gentleman in question, since his recent setback, has let the colour go a bit, hasn't he? Do you read anything into that psychologically?

Oh, yeah, definitely trying to look a bit more distinguished, I think. Kind of like, you know, that sort of showing his wisdom and experience through the sort of the greyness of his hair and very little else, to be honest. All right, well, that's your view, not necessarily that of the BBC. Just a quick one, Alison, what does your hair look like? It is shoulder length, it's natural colour, which is sort of a mixture of, I call it gronde, grey and blonde.

It was dyed blonde for about 35 years. And when I'm, like I said, 56 now, and I got to about 51, and I just thought, and I kept seeing my brother actually, and thinking, his hair looks really cool, I wonder what mine's like. So I just grew in the grey, and I just thought and I kept seeing my brother actually and thinking his hair looks really cool I wonder what mine's like um so I just grew in the gray and I love it Alison Walsh and Ashley Gaunt and we should say that interview was recorded before the Rudy Giuliani hair dye facial dribble incident which was something that many of us noticed this week she says carefully and yes i do dye my hair i own it um thank you very much indeed for listening um woman's hour back live of course two minutes past 10 on monday morning hope you can join us then i'm sarah 11 and for over a year i've been working on one of the most

complex stories i've ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.