Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour special: Breaking The Cycle

Episode Date: April 21, 2024

Over the past few weeks, Woman’s Hour has been telling the stories of young people, staff and parents involved in SHiFT in Greater Manchester. SHiFT is a new approach to helping young people at risk of getting into serious trouble and it is all about relationships. Skilled professionals called ‘guides’ work with teenagers for an 18-month period and they just keep showing up. Our reporter Jo Morris went out and about with the team and spoke to teenagers and a mum about the impact of this new approach.In this special podcast episode, our presenter Nuala McGovern guides you through the stories you might have missed.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Reporter: Jo Morris Producer: Erin Riley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern. Over a week on Woman's Hour, we broadcast a new series, Breaking the Cycle, and we've gathered all five episodes here together in podcast form. Young people at risk of getting into trouble are likely to be involved with lots of agencies, police, education, justice and health systems for example. As the Independent Review of Children's Care put it, they're all responding differently to the same teenagers. Shift is a new idea with the aim of tackling this. There are

currently four shift practices running around the country and four more on the way. And over the first year of a new one in Greater Manchester, our reporter Jo Morris went out and about with the team. First, Sally Dickin from Shift, who paints a vivid picture of the young people they're trying to help.

A six foot tall, 17 year old who stinks of weed and grunts at you doesn't evoke a lot of sympathy in a lot of people. It's not everybody's cup of tea. That's not everybody's preferred profession. But it is yours. Yes, someone's got to do it. Shift is all about relationships. Guides are skilled practitioners who work with young people. The aim is to reduce reoffending and to find solutions and ways forward

for those most at risk of getting into serious trouble. They look for what they call the hook, which is whatever motivates someone to reflect and start taking steps towards a better life. The hook will be different for everyone. Today, you'll hear from a parent, a guide, a child and from Sally Dickin who now works for Shift. She used to be the head of adolescent services in Tameside, Manchester. She's a qualified social worker with 20 years experience and has worked with Youth Justice throughout her career.

Why did she bring Shift in? It was obvious to me that this was able to fill a gap that I could see very clearly. In Youth justice we get notified about children who are maybe coming to the attention of the police or you just start to hear names bandied about of children who professionals are perhaps a little bit worried about. The same name keeps cropping up here and there. We can do an element of prevention work but there's only so much we can do and there's a big stigma around working with the Youth Justice Service as well.

So we'd sort of get these children and be able to do a brief intervention with them, but there wasn't the resource to be able to do anything longer and so you were almost waiting. For this mum you're about to hear and her teenage son, timing was everything. Much more from both of them later in the series. I knew something was wrong, I had that gut feeling,

but everyone was saying, don't be dramatic, it's his age, he'll come round. I kept saying to my mum, you just haven't got a clue, but wouldn't tell me what I didn't have a clue over. So for me, I think we could have stopped it a lot sooner if we would have known the right questions to ask him and how severe of a risk he was facing. You can see children, and it's not a criticism of systems, but they can be getting arrested and there's no outcome,

and then they might be arrested three weeks later so that's another offence and there's still no outcome for the first one and in that time no one's working with them to help to prevent it from happening so yeah that's frustrating. All the evidence suggests the sooner you can get in when children start to get into trouble the greater impact you're likely to have and I'm not saying that other professionals can't build those relationships they they absolutely can there's time constraints around how far they can go what was the most appealing thing for you about the shift approach? The low caseloads, meaning that the workers are able to rip up the rulebook and spend time doing that relationship building without the constraints of,

right, well, it's three months, where have you got against the goals that were set around this intervention plan? And don't get me wrong, there is goal setting, but with a focus on getting that hook and getting that young person actually engaged. They're not working with you because they've got to, because they've got a court order or because they've got an outcome from the police. They want to.

Something might go wrong. Actually, your shift worker doesn't go away. They're still going to be there, stuck to you like Velcro. One of the first guides I met at shift was a woman called Imogen. I think this voice note that she sent me shows her dedication to the children she worked with. So it is just after seven o'clock, I'm sitting in my car, it's dark outside. I've just dropped off a young person. We went to Nando's, they've been telling me all about what happened when they

were stabbed and down to every little detail including the dinner that they had when they got back to their house and how now when they eat that thing that food spaghetti all they can do is remember what happened that day so just drop them off and now I am going to pick up a young woman who's 17 what often is quite sort of challenging is switching from one young person to another particularly when they're telling new things which are deep difficult stories. Hopefully our time together will be what she needs. The idea is that guides stick around for 18 months. Of course that is not always possible. Sadly, Imogen died suddenly in May last year after a short illness.

The impact of her death is still being felt in the team and amongst the young people she worked with. It seemed important to pay tribute to her here. Manchester guide Robin is clear that the relationships at the heart of Shift take time to build. There's times when a young person might not want it or might not be ready and I think you have to respect that to an extent. That was a thing at one point where I did kind of get told not to come back and stuff like that. Do you see that as a challenge? Yeah but probably in a positive way

probably yeah. It definitely kind of ignites something in me, makes me more inclined to find out what's really going on then for this young person, what's the reason why they're not engaging. Coming back and actually showing them, OK, hi, it's me again, I'm still here, like a text message or just kind of popping in when they're at school and just seeing how they're doing, that can be just enough. So how were the young people who would be involved selected? The starting point was to ask professionals who were the children who kept them awake at night, who were the children who if we didn't do something they were going to have really poor outcomes, who were the children who they were really struggling to engage as well. We then looked at all the different data around them, how many exclusions they might have had from education for social care involvement

did they have any youth justice involvement and then we were able to look at who are the ones who aren't currently getting a service or who were just on the periphery so you started off with 83 yeah and you eventually whittled it down to? To our 27, yeah. Some of them just chose themselves. There were a lot of names that I knew, and being the head of youth justice, you get the overnight arrests, or they were starting to go missing and coming through on the police missing list. I knew that they'd been bubbling, if you like, and it wasn't easy.

Every single child, you know know you wanted to help of the 27 we've got two girls it's not many is it no but it's absolutely representative of the justice system in terms of children who end up in trouble with the the police does that mean that they're not involved in stuff or does it mean that they're not as readily arrested or stopped or they're not drawing as much attention to themselves? I don't know. So how do young women normally present to you then? They can be quite angry, always vulnerable and difficult backgrounds. These are girls who've fended for themselves quite a bit. So can you remember what you thought of Robin when you first met her?

Do you remember how she came in and met you? I've never had a worker like her. You've never had a worker like her. You've never had a worker like her? Yeah, different. She's nice. What does she do that's nice? Checks on me. Stop me from getting in trouble. Do you find it hard to keep out of trouble?

Or have you in the past? Yeah. I used to always get in trouble. Now I don't. We know what the past? Yeah. I used to always get in trouble. Now I don't. We know what the risk factors are, being out of education. School is a huge protective factor in terms of having eyes and ears on children, monitoring them. So you're dealing with really complex issues.

Yeah. How hard is it to help some of the young people you're working with how hard is it for you to reach them really hard these aren't young people who are sat there waiting for someone to come along and help them they can often be mistrustful of adults that's what ultimately this is about it's getting young people to take charge and control of their own lives and their own futures, recognise their own worth and be able to see a future for themselves. It can be very, very hard and very challenging, but also very rewarding. Oh gosh, when I first came into social work,

you came into it thinking it was going to change the world. You quickly, especially in the field of youth justice you quickly change your opinion on that and you're just grateful if someone smiles at you or says thank you. I love the young people they're often very charismatic once you break down the barrier and you start to see the person underneath and they realise they're not being judged and you start to see the child as opposed to the image. What sort of teenager were you? Out in Manchester city centre in nightclubs. Don't get me wrong I was I was good and I worked hard at school. I was very lucky. I had supportive parents who supported me to achieve as much as I could.

The children who I see coming into the service that I work for have not had that opportunity. Sally and I are both mums of young men and it would be fair to say we've both had our moments. The relationship between the guide and the young person is not parental. It's something different. Sometimes the role of the guide can be to just bring some clarity and some calm and some sort of shared understanding between young person, parent, carer. Dead easy professionally, I've got a teenage boy. Everything that I know professionally goes out of the window as soon as emotion comes into it.

You say, how's that going? Yeah. Are there some young people who keep you up at night? Oh, yeah, there are. We've still got children who are going missing. Just because they've got a shift guide doesn't mean that they're magically turned around overnight. This takes time, and that's always a worry.

You can't force it, but at some point they will get it and see this as being a bit different. So it's got to be at that young person's pace. That's part of the joy when they're suddenly pleased to see you. They don't want to admit it, but you get a little smile. Small wins. Absolutely, 100% it's small wins tell me about Eva Eva she's one of our guides she gets young people you can tell when you interview people who like teenagers the way that they talk about them they smile and you can see a genuine warmth you can't fake that

that's what the kids feel as well because they can sniff you out kids they know if you're genuine and tell me about Robin Robin, she worked in a school what came across was I'm in this role currently and I see so much more that I could be doing

and I just want to do so much more she's young, energetic this role currently and I see so much more that I could be doing and I just want to do so much more. She's young, energetic. What would you say to someone who thinks these kids are just problem kids and it's too late, you can't change their situation or their behaviour? I'd say try and step into their shoes. Could you imagine if your whole life was defined about something you'd done wrong? If everyone who looked at you looked at your worst day of your life or looked at the worst thing you've ever done and that was what they only ever talked about when they talked about you? Because that's what life's like for some of these kids.

As a society, what do we actually want for these young people? We want them to be productive members of society who are achieving well, living law-abiding, productive lives, contributing to the community and contributing to the economy. And then ask yourself, well, how do we get them to be that if you think the answer is by punishing them and saying that they're all rubbish then that's your conclusion but that's not mine it's by making them believe that they've got a brighter future and that they can be more than what society currently thinks they are in terms of the cost

of running a program like shift if we just prevent one or two from going into custody or into care, then it's paid for itself. It's really hard to demonstrate when you're trying to prove something hasn't happened. Are you hopeful? Always hopeful. You've got to be working with teenagers. Children's services all over the UK are under pressure as budgets shrink and need grows. 150,000 children, this is according to the Department of Education,

are severely absent from school in England. And that's a rise of 150% since the pandemic. And not being at school makes children vulnerable. SHIFT has been set up to work with these children. Skilled professionals called guides work with six young people each over 18 months, sticking with them and helping them change their lives. Over the first year of a new practice in Greater Manchester,

Joe Morris met some of the team and the kids that they're working with. The plan was an interview with one of the guys from Shift, Eva. But from the off, it was clear that she'd been overtaken by events. She'd had an urgent call from one of the young people. So I went out and about with her, riding shotgun in her E-class Mercedes. He called me last night around six o'clock. Hi, mum and dad have split up. This is exactly how he said it. Mum and dad split up. Mum's back in hospital with a mental illness.

Then I said, so where are you? And he said, I'm at my girlfriend's. And I said, but where are you staying? And he said he's staying at his uncle's'i dad. Dywedodd, roedd yn y cyfarfod teulu. Dywedodd, nid oes unrhyw un yma ar hyn o bryd. Sut oedde? 14. A sut yn eich penodol amdano? Mewn penodol amdano, oherwydd mae llawer wedi mynd i fyny yn ddiweddar. Rwy'n debyg wedi bod yn gweithio gyda'i nawr am tua mis,

yn anodd i fyngor yn gyntaf, yn amlwg, oherwydd o ran y profiad prydwyl â gwasanaethau, roeddent yn rhywfaint anodd. Two mums, I'd say. Hard to engage initially, obviously, because given the previous experience with services, they were a bit reluctant. And the fact that he's phoned me, it must have been about six o'clock last night, that he's phoned me and actually let me know what's going on. What do you think that means that he rang you? Trust. Massive relationship building. And he asked him, has he told anyone else? And he said, no. I said, so social care don't know?

And he said, no. I said, well, said no I said so social care don't know and he said no I said well you know I will have to inform them and I'll have to let school know and he said yeah that's fine. What does that feel like for you? Obviously I'm panicked and I worry about him because he's a 14 year old boy by himself yeah but at the same time I was so glad that he reached out to me as well so yeah yeah, that was the amazing part of it, that I felt, OK, that relationship is definitely established, so now for me with that young person, we'll definitely move on to the next stage

of looking at what goals he wants to achieve. And then I've just spoke to school then, and they said he was doing really, really well, so he's in a pro at the moment. So that's a pupil referral unit? Yeah, so I'm hoping to get him back into mainstream if that's what one of his goals are, because that's my goal. I've got to make sure it's his goal.

Another busy day. So our office is on the corner, eh? I'll go in and we'll sort out what I need to do and then I'm all yours again. How are you doing? Are you all right? Eva's plainly dedicated to this work. She told me what inspired her. When she was 23, her younger brother was shot and killed on a night out in Manchester

He was just 21 He wasn't involved in any trouble Eve was all about supporting young people before it's too late So what I'll do is I'll just update these professionals About this and then we can get going Tameside.gov.uk. You are second in the queue. Busy today, aren't they?

School holidays. Children are not in education and they're more likely to go and have missing episodes. It's structure and routine in the life, isn't it? And when they're just left to their own devices and sometimes they've not got their parents in, at least if they're in school, then professionals have eyes on them as well.

Very busy. Second since I've come on. How long have you been in the job for, Eva? January has started. No day the same. You have to just respond, you know, to crisis situations. UK, you are second in the queue. Yeah, still second. Eva's still queuing. Tameside.gov.uk.

You've been waiting for 15 minutes. You are second in the queue. To talk to the social worker. To get through to the duty team, yeah, social worker that will be on duty today. They might need to do a complete referral because I've already spoken to a social worker that's supporting another young person this morning. So weird because like literally me and the social worker about this

case was emailing yesterday and she was saying she thinks mum's close to a mental breakdown because she's coming across so confused which is sad. He's there obviously a 14 year old there. Very hard for your young man to see as well, his mum like that. Yeah, very hard. And he's got such a good relationship with his mum, really, really good relationship. So I'd done a session with him and I dropped him back off. And then I'd just go in and, you know, say hi to mum and stuff

and have a little bit of a chat with her. And then as I was leaving, he said, I'm going to go out now, Mum. And he'd give her a kiss and said, I love you. And I just thought, oh, that's so sweet, because you don't see that with teenagers anymore. They don't give mums kisses, especially boys as well. And I was just like, oh, that's so cute.

And then the next time I seen her, I went, you've got a really good relationship with your mum, and that's important. You've got kids, Eva? went, you've got a really good relationship with your mum and that's important. You've got kids, Eva? Yeah, I've got three. Two girls, one boy. He's 11. But even him at the moment doesn't even want to be seen with me. And I thought I was quite a cool mum. Welcome to Tameside Children's Services. So they're dealing with a lot, your young people, aren't they?

Yeah, some are dealing with loads, yeah. They've got poverty in the household, very rare two parents in the household. They have a lot of the adverse childhood experiences. But then on the other side, there is some that, you know, like in particular the one that we're going to do the interview with, mum and dad both go to work, mum and dad both live in the household. So it just shows that it can happen to anyone.

Welcome to Tameside Children's Services. Please note your call will be recorded. Just called me up. Transferring you, please hold. I'm gone. She did eventually get through. Is this the duty team for social care? The name's Eva and I'm calling from Shift.

I'm calling in regards of a young person. One more call to make before heading out to see the family. We were meant to be meeting a couple of hours ago. Are you calling me up? Mum. Hello? Hiya, you okay? Are you sure? Did you think she was making sense? No. She sounded confused didn't she? She did didn't she? Yeah definitely. How much time do you spend helping the parents of your young people as well? Shift of quite keen that you get to know the family as well and always pull the family in.

If the young person that I'm supporting, he's got a really good relationship with his mum, so if he sees me supporting his mum, potentially, had I not had him already engaged, that would have been my hook. I would have just been there alongside mum until he eventually would think, oh, actually, she's not just going to disappear

or she's not just another professional because you've got to think of how many professionals come in these people's lives for a period of three mums, six mums, but actually with this shift off, it's that nice 18-month period. It's persistence, isn't it? And Eva is crafty. She knows how to get young people to open up. Sitting them down for the big chat isn't often the best approach. Sometimes it might be you do a session and then you say,

oh, are you going anywhere? Do you want a lift? You're dropping them somewhere, you're kind of getting a bit of knowledge of where they're chilling who the peer groups are that they're with what areas they're gravitating towards you get a lot out of a young person on a car journey believe it or not sometimes people don't like eye contact so it's no eye contact you're driving and you're talking and they just give you loads i don't think sometimes they don't even realize how much they're giving you. Over the next hour, Eva picks up the young man's mum and drops her back at home. She helps with the mum's prescription, gas, food and calls the young man to tell him his mum is

safe. Then we're off to meet another teenager in his family. Eva smiles when she talks about him. He's a cheeky little chap here. He's not a little actually, he's quite a tall boy. Really nice, really engages in sessions, gets a lot out of his sessions. He's 16, he's just finished school, he's on study leave at the moment. Much more about this teenager we're visiting next time. Meanwhile, his mum and him and the family dog all welcome Eva like an old friend. Hiya, how are you? I'm fine, thank you. You're freezing, isn't it? I know, hey there.

And hello! Come in. You've been waiting. I knew something was wrong. I had that gut feeling. But everyone was saying, don't be dramatic. It's his age. He'll come round. I kept saying to my mum, you just haven't got a clue.

But wouldn't tell me what I didn't have a clue over. So for me, I think we could have stopped it a lot sooner if we would have known the right questions to ask him and how severe of a risk he was facing. Now, more from that mum whose son got into serious trouble. He and his family are now working with Shift. That boy ended up mixing or cooking drugs and also dealing them in what's called a trap house far from home. If you don't know the term county lines, it's a form of criminal exploitation where children and young

people are groomed into drug dealing. A recent report by the think tank Centre for Social Justice and the charity Justice in Care found that almost half of the victims of criminal exploitation in the UK are British boys under the age of 18. And they're calling for them to be recognised as victims of modern slavery. They acknowledge that these boys are being missed because they're often involved in criminality. Yesterday I met Eva, a guide with Shift. We were on our way to meet a young man who had been groomed and ended up cooking drugs in a northern seaside town.

You can hear his story tomorrow. This is his mum's very relatable story of realising that her son was going off the rails. He was always so full of personality and life and all of that went very quickly. He changed so dramatically in how he was behaving. He really went from just being a bit mischievous to being completely secretive, very, very depressed, not eating, looking like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders.

So I was trying to think, is it because of school? Is it because of his girlfriend? Something going on? Is he being bullied? I never would have thought that he was being trafficked across county lines for the purposes of selling drugs. My mind wouldn't have gone there. We just thought he was being a teenager. When their boy started to go missing, a lot,

things started to ramp up. He just kept disappearing. I'd get calls from school, he'd leave here in the morning, wouldn't let me take him. He went to, like, an alternative provision school. He's not turned up. That was one thing, but we thought, oh, he's just gone round to a friend's, wagging it, you know.

A lot of stuff started going missing from the house. He started, in the middle of the night. I'd get up to check if he was in bed and he wouldn't be in bed. So he was sneaking out in the middle of the night. What was that like for you as a man? Oh, it was heartbreaking. I'd be up then all night, frantic, where on earth is he? He'd go and say, you know, he's staying at a friend's.

But then his phone would be switched off. So I couldn't get hold of him. I'd try and ring his friend's parents and I couldn't get hold of them, but what I realise now is the friend's parent that I thought I was speaking to was actually somebody who was associated with the gang. So when I'd rang them and said, is he staying there, they'd gone, yeah, he's just gone out with the friend that he was hanging around with, and it was a grown-up.

We did report him as a missing person quite a lot as well, and because the police report has to ask so many questions, they were asking about it, but they didn't actually pinpoint it because they have to look, you know, is it to do with being radicalised? Is it, you know, all these other issues? And I think for mums, we kept going round and round in a circle not knowing what we were dealing with This mum is now involved with the

charity Parents Against Child Exploitation. She and her son are speaking out to raise awareness First things first though, kettle on Do you want me to make you some drink? Yeah, do you want coffee? It's a latte one I don't have normal coffee. I was so naive and I wasn't brought up with a silver spoon you know you see things yourself growing up and still it couldn't have prepared me for the risks that he was facing and unless you know what it is how can you get help from we just kept going round and round. What really resonated for me is he took my car a few times.

And the last time, he said, Mum, it's all I wanted to do, I didn't care if I die, I just wanted it all to be over. We thought, you know, he's just being naughty, stealing cars, but it was the amount of pressure that they'd put him under. They'd done things like the gang members had turned up, because my husband works away a lot at night, so there was me and little one in bed

and they'd forced away in the house with him and got him to take the car keys, but it was all threats that they were putting him under to do stuff. But at the time, I was getting more distant from him because I was thinking, why is he doing this to me? And his dad, you know, why is he stealing our cars and letting people come in our house? It never occurred to me that he was under such duress and being forced to do that as parents you try and stamp your foot down don't you show them right from wrong and in that instance that

kind of stance actually played in right into their hands did you know what county lines were? No I didn't. I'd seen a little bit of a mention then on TV but it seemed so far-fetched and all the children that are portrayed are they're in children's home they haven't got a mum and dad at home it was children who you see as you know they are easy targets because they're out on the street all the time bless them you know they're falling through the cracks but you don't think it's going to impact your child. I changed jobs so I could work from home, so I could keep an eye on him. So I was here every day. So it was going on all right under my nose, and I still didn't see it.

That really gets to me, going on under my nose. What parent doesn't have sympathy with that? And this mum is clear that the shame and stigma are immense we were just so unprepared and it could have so gone a different way i do feel blessed that he's still here with me i do when you say it could have gone a different way what do you actually mean he could have been overdosed on drugs he was being sent to a trap house to cook drugs that could have seriously injured him he had people put machetes to his throat, he was beaten. One wrong move, you know, the cars that he was taking and what they had him involved in.

At any time, he could have lost his life, and that's how I feel as a mum, you know. He went from being a bit of a handful to being faced in situations where his life was at risk, as far as I'm concerned, it was. You know, he's cooking drugs in a Pyrex dish on an open flame. It's not good, is it? And I think both me and his dad, for quite a while,

we were very shamed over what was going on with his behaviour because we were fearful of, you know, what are people going to think of us as parents because we can't control our child you know we shouldn't have allowed ourselves to feel so shamed for so long because again that's all keeping us from speaking out and asking people for help what did you think when Eva approached you I think it's an absolutely fabulous scheme what I love about it is it's very very relaxed for him so a lot of the other meetings we've been very fortunate with the support we've had but it's quite formal and

again he feels almost as if he's going to get in trouble if he opens up and shares things and I think what Eva's been able to do is build his trust by doing some fun activities that we never expected. We don't know what it's like to be a teenager anymore. You think you do, but you don't. And they do. They're very much in touch with a lot of other kids. So they understand it without them being preachy or like a teacher. Social services have been great, but they are very much... He's still guarded with what he says to them. Whereas I feel with this type of scheme,

I think he's perhaps opened up to Eva more than anyone else. Do you think he opens up more to her than he does to you? I'd like to think that we've got the trust where he can tell me, but I'm also fully aware that I'm his mum, and he's scared of hurting me. He's scared of getting in more trouble than letting me down and I think he feels a huge amount of shame. So I can hear him and Eva laughing in the room. Yeah she's brilliant with him, she's just consistent so she said she's going to keep an appointment, she does. It comes up again and again, the importance of the shift guys just showing up. It's not rocket science, it's about relationships.

When Eva said that she was here to help you, did you believe her straight away? Nah. When someone comes in telling me a bunch of things, this and that, I don't believe them until they do it. I'm used to not trusting people. I didn't want people to know what was going on. Because I didn't accept that I needed the help because I thought I could do it all on my own.

But when you're 15 you think you can take on the world on your own, don't you? I know I'm one of the lucky ones. Yeah.

Most kids who get involved in the things I get involved in at that age, they end up dead or in jail. This series, Breaking the Cycle,

is all about a new approach to helping young people who are at risk of going off the rails. It's called Shift and it's all about relationships. Skilled professionals called guides look for what they call the hook to help children change their own lives. The reporter is Jo Morris. Yesterday, we heard from the mum of a young man who got involved with county lines.

She wasn't familiar with that term, and if you're not, it's a form of criminal exploitation where children and young people are groomed into drug dealing. Today, I'm sat in that mum's living room with shift guide Eva and the young man to hear his experience of being groomed and trafficked to a trap house in a seaside town where he cooked and sold drugs. He's tall, friendly and wearing a kerb link chain. But I'm most struck by how young he seems

a kid in a man's body. What difference did it make when he became part of shift? It's nice to know people care though isn't it? That's what it is? It's nice to know people care, though, isn't it? That's what it is. It is nice to know there is people out there that care, who will help you. I was going through all of that and I was on my own.

Because obviously I could have got help from my mum, but if I went in the living room and said, Mum, look, this is what I've been doing, she would have just hit the roof about it because she wouldn't have known what to do about it and it would have stressed her out, it would have stressed me out and it just wouldn't have been a good place for any of us. See, the thing with my mum is, yeah, she's a typical mum.

I could fall off my bike and graze my knee and I'll get looked after for a whole week. I'll get everything done for me for the whole week because that's what she's like. She's a bit too caring at times. So I didn't want to worry her. Would your mum have known what county lines were? I don't think she did.

Do you think Eva understands what it is? Yeah, but she's a professional and she gets trained to understand what it is. We've heard in other episodes, exclusion from school or being absent from school are big indicators of risk. This boy was one step away from a pupil referral unit or PRU. That's when the real trouble began.

So I was in mainstream education and this was during the end of my mainstream education. I was bouncing around school to school. They kicked me out of one school and it was like, it was a school and there were six pupils and they told me and my mum this is the first step before a pro this school will be the best school for you and that's how I got involved with it because there was a kid there and I made quite good mates with him and we used to go to his house every day after school because we both walked the same way home one day we was out

playing football it was so innocent as me and my mate kicking a ball around on a park. That's how I started getting groomed. We wasn't doing anything criminal. We wasn't doing anything wrong. And then a man pulls up in an expensive car and the boys are vulnerable to what he offers. Then for like two weeks, he was a bit of,

he'd come pick us up, he'd take us out for food, you know, he'd come pick us up in his nice big up he'd take us out for food you know he'd come pick us up in his nice big flash car take us out for food do all stuff like that with us give us free weed just just just stuff like that you know what i mean just stuff that makes you think he's a nice person what did you think can you remember what you thought about him at the time i used to think he was sick i thought well obviously i thought he. You know, he's coming down, letting me drive his car that can go 160 miles an hour, buying me food, giving me free weed. That's the nicest guy I've ever met. I absolutely loved him. Then two weeks later, it turned from here you are, here's all this stuff, to do you

want to make yourself some money i was like right is that you can make yourself 300 pound a day just to sit in a house for me 300 pound a day and your food gets paid for so i just thought 300 pound a day to sit in a house come on who's gonna say no to that so i done it little did i know i got there and he had me cooking crack and selling crack and heroin what's the straight away as soon as you got there you ended had me cooking crack and selling crack and heroin. So straight away, as soon as you got there, you ended up... As soon as you get there, you walk through the door, someone sat there waiting for you. They take you to the kitchen, you put a pair of gloves on

and one of those coronavirus masks teach you what to do. They teach you how to turn the cocaine into the crack and weigh it all out and bag it all out and then they teach you all the lingo about it so when people ring you're asking what telling you what they want so you know the right money and this and that and then once you've learned it he'll sit there with you for like two hours he'll teach you once you've learned it he'll just leave and they are in a random house on your own at 15 years old 14 14, 15 years old. It was quite scary because it was just... ..just kind of just get dropped into it.

And then he rings you and he says his exact words were, there's no way to really prepare you for this, you've just got to go and do it. There was a million and one different things going through my mind. I was thinking, oh, yeah, this is sick, I'll be making money and this and that, and then on the other side, I was like, if I get arrested now, I'm going to jail. police come through this front door and i'm the only one sat here with a bunch of class a drugs and money and a drug phone it's falling on my head if

anything goes wrong who am i really gonna call and i also knew it was quite dangerous with all the violence that was going on it's non-stop fighting i mean there was two times where i got chased with a machete what did you tell your mum and dad about where you were going and what you were doing at first i was just going up for a weekend you know two three days at first it was just i'm just going staying at my mate's house mum this and that and then when we and then when days turned into weeks and weeks turned into months, it was like, yeah, there wasn't anything I could say. Because what's an excuse to not going in school, not coming home for a week? There wasn't anything.

So I just turned my phone off. So you just go missing? Yeah, I just went missing because it was better that then. I have to sit there and make up excuses that aren't excuses to my mum and dad. Because the thing is, the police come round, you pretty much say to them, I don't want to talk to you. They're not going to sit there and hassle you about it. They can't arrest you for going missing.

They're just going to say, all right, then, as long as you're home and safe, and they leave. How were you feeling in yourself at this point? I was quite ashamed of myself, because I knew it was wrong. I knew how wrong it was, and I knew that them drugs killed people. So obviously it was the guilt, and the guilt does eat you alive because it's hard going to sleep every night

knowing that you probably killed someone with it just by giving it to them. It's not a nice life to live because every part about it is horrible other than the money, but the money doesn't even make it feel worth it. The price you pay for that £300 a day it doesn't come close did you worry about lying to your mum and dad i was more bothered about getting in trouble with them because that's all i've ever been bothered

about getting in trouble with them because obviously i don't want to get in trouble with my mum and dad because i was i was i was trying to live a double life i was trying to go to school be good for my mum and dad whilst also be good for this guy and do as he says but you can't do both so one kind of took over the other and it was the bad part that took over the good part why didn't you this is going to sound like a really naive question but i just want to know how you feel about it why didn't you just stop what you were doing in my head that there wasn't a way to stop. They have that control over you by then. And I think, do you see how he groomed you?

Yeah. When I look back on it now, I see how much it was grooming. At the time, I just thought he was just being nice. It wasn't as easy as just saying, listen, I don't want to do it anymore, I'm not doing it. Because if you say that to him, that's when people start getting hurt because they have to feel like they're in control. If you'd met Eva at that point, do you think you would have listened to her at that point?

Whilst it was all going on? Yeah. I think if I had professionals involved whilst that was all going on, especially Eva, I don't think it would have got to the point where it got to. Professionals don't get involved with you until you do the wrong thing, obviously. Fortunately, yeah. And I suppose he would have shared some of that with me.

Oh, this guy let me drive his car and that would have been ringing alarm bells in my head. What was the point when you realised I had to do something about it? Yeah. It was school. School was really starting to figure it out and school was cracking down on it and it got to the point from where my mum was reporting to me missing to school was reporting me missing but when my mum would report me missing it was

my son's not come home and this and that but when school report you missing it's he's not shown up to school in days when he comes in he looked he looks like he's on summer or he's exhausted he's always got new clothes's exhausted he's always got new clothes new shoes he's always got money in his pocket we think he's definitely involved in county lines and that's what it was and then I'd have the police ringing my phone and I didn't know what to do so I went in school I said I got something to tell you because I would have rather had my mum hear it from me than hear it from a police officer at the door. And what was it like for you when your mum came in? It was the biggest relief of my life,

because it was just like the weight of the world was off my shoulders. Because I was walking round for a good ten months with that all on my shoulders and no-one to speak to about it. Yeah, when I told my mum, it was a very big relief. And I could finally just breathe, and I knew it was nearly over because I knew once my mum found out, I was never going through that door again. Has she let you out yet?

Yeah, yeah, she lets me out now, but I didn't go out for a very long time after it, but I don't blame her, though. And how did your mum react when she found out? A lot better than I expected. She just said to me, we're going to get you help. It was terrifying because I did not know if I was going to get in serious trouble for it or get help for it. You sharing your story could be so powerful to others.

All I want is just for kids to realise that it's not the life. Because you do not enjoy a single second of it how do you think other adults saw you at the time and how did you feel in yourself i think other adults seeing me as a kid who was going off the rails i think i was just looked at as a criminal because you know when you see someone doing them things it's easy to just say he's a criminal because that's what it is, it's criminalistic behaviour You understand that, that people would think well he's dealing drugs If I looked out my window now and seen some guy robbing cars and dealing drugs

criminal, no two ways about it, he's a criminal so obviously I didn't like that stereotype and I didn't like walking around knowing I am a criminal because I come from a good background with a mum and daddy who work hard, and they're not criminal, and I don't have a criminal family. You know? They're good. And obviously, my mum and dad have morals.

So it was more shameful than anything. I think the thing that hit the most with me was when my grandma found out. Because my grandma, yeah, she's like... She believes I'm an angel. She don't think I can do one thing wrong in my life. I can't do anything wrong. I could never do anything wrong.

But when she found out, you could tell it really disturbed her. It wasn't nice. The thing is, yeah, there is people who look at me differently now. And there's people who I don't talk to because of what I've done. In the last of our series, Breaking the Cycle, Jo Morris meets the youngest of the shift guides. Her name is Robin.

She's only 27 and came to shift after working in a school. She wanted to be able to do more for the children in her charge and as you'll hear she has very personal reasons for feeling empathy for young people that are in trouble. My name is Robin and I work for Shift in partnership with Teamside. So I work with young people. Mine are aged between 14 and 16 at the moment. So how many young people are you working with? I have six. Have you managed to engage all the young people you've been assigned?

So, I'm so far on five out of six and my sixth one is a work in progress I'm getting there with them I've just kind of had a little bit of a brainwave literally yesterday actually it's not always about engaging the young person sometimes your first barrier is actually trying to get the engagement of the parent with this with this last one I'd had a lot of contact over the phone and text messaging a lot of cancelled or rearranged appointments yesterday I probably got about five minutes but it was a start and it was kind of the breaking of the ice so you won't give up no I think that it's those people parents children it's when somebody is quite persistent in not wanting that support

that sometimes they might need it most. So you're working with one young woman who we're going to be seeing later. Yeah. How many girls are on your programme? So I think in total we have two. I have one and Eva has one. Boys are more known because they tend to get caught more and they tend to take part in low-level antisocial behaviour or they congregate in large groups and so their names become more known, more stuff in searches, whereas with girls, they don't... I mean, they can go in big groups and stuff,

but I think they present it in very different ways. Most of the issues and concerns we have for girls tend to come about within school rather than in the community, I would say. Getting excluded from mainstream, going into a pro. How much is there a sense that girls can be perpetrators as well as victims? Girls tend to get labelled more being vulnerable whereas I think boys are labelled as victims. Girls tend to get labelled more being vulnerable,

whereas I think boys are labelled as naughty. Part of our work and part of what we're about is also kind of challenging that boys are also victims and sometimes just because they have been arrested for this offence or they've done this or they've done that, they can be just as much of a victim as a female can. Tell me about the young woman you're going to go and see this afternoon. We're going to pick her up from school today.

They've just moved into a temporary home, so I've seen her quite a bit this week already. Initially, when I first met her, one of the things that she wanted was she wanted somewhere to live. It was such a basic thing, but that was one of the biggest things. She didn't have anywhere to live. They were sofa surfing at the time. That's a really basic need, isn't it, wanting a home?

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of picking up and dropping off of young people at Shift. The child Robin and I are collecting has been swimming today. Robin says to stay in the car. She thinks the girl might be embarrassed by my microphone in front of her schoolmates at the pupil referral unit. The child Robin and I are collecting has been swimming today. Robin says to stay in the car. She thinks the girl might be embarrassed by my microphone in front of her schoolmates at the pupil referral unit. Apparently she's freezing. Are you?

Hiya, how you doing? You all right? I'm Jo. Good to meet you. Just saying, hi. Do you need something to eat? Have you eaten? No, but I'm Jo. Good to meet you. Just saying, hi. Do you need something to eat? Have you eaten? No, but I'm fine. Do you want to get something to eat or drink first and then we'll take it back with us? Alright.

Yeah? What did your mum think when she first met Robin? She thought she was going to leave like the rest of them. She just didn't want to put me through it again. The stress and everyone, because I had a lot of people who came and then left. Wrapped in a towel like a security blanket, with long wet hair, she's initially shy. Robin says it's taking time to gain her trust. Small steps. We pick up some food for her, mozzarella dippers, chicken and a fruity drink.

Then back at the office we all sit down for a chat. We're not going to use your real name in the interview. What would you like to be called? Me. You'd like to be called me? You're basically saying I don't want to be someone else, I want to be me. So good for you actually.

It's good, you're clever. I didn't think of it like that, I just thought the word me. When Robin came to see you and said she was going to help you, did you believe her? Not at first, no. Cos every time I had, like, a counsellor or something, they would all, like, just say, oh, I'm here to help you and then just leave and then don't come back.

And Robin actually came back, didn't you? I'm not going anywhere. I've told you that. And now you can't get rid of her? Yeah. That's a good thing, though. Good. So we talk every day, don't we? And I do check on her all the time.

Just make sure that she's OK when she's going out and, you know, stuff like that. Make sure I'm safe. Make sure you're... Safe. Robin is on the end of the phone for her young people checking in and checking up me seems to like it finds it reassuring whilst slurping on her drink I rang her on the Friday evening

and she was out with a friend and their boyfriend drove a car and stuff and I kind of gave you a bit of a talking to and said you know listen you need to go somewhere safe you said that you weren't going to meet them and then you went somewhere safe then didn't you I don't think she actually believed me that I was going to ring her back later on that night to make sure did you no I didn't believe why I didn't think she would have actually rang me back and then so when she did ring you what

did that feel like good I just didn't trust when she said she you, what did that feel like? Good. I just didn't trust when she said she was going to stay for ages. I just didn't think it was true. I wanted to ask Robin how she goes about building relationships with children who feel so let down and to hear more of me's story. Turns out that like one of the other guides either, Robin has personal reasons for doing this kind of work. For Robin and me, there was also a totally random connection when I first met with her I met her through school I spoke to mum the night before just to give her a bit of a heads up met her at school and the in there was literally just came down to the fact that we both had the same middle

name yeah we both had the same middle name. That was convenient. Yeah, we both had the same middle name and our birthdays were like two days apart. So we just had a little bit of a joke about that saying, you know, what else did we have in common with each other? I mean, that just broke the ice straight away. So the young woman that you're seeing, why is she being brought to your attention? There's a lot of trauma there. She was kicked out of, well kicked out, she was excluded from mainstream

school when she was in year 7 which was right before Covid as well she was working with Youth Justice as well as I've got to know her, got to know the family and the situation, I do believe that she was right for shift I think it's very easy to not recognise

that you need help sometimes or feel like you have to do it on your own and sometimes it can feel like weakness. What drew you to this kind of work, Robin? My own lived experiences as a child. So being very vulnerable, having a lot of difficulty at home, that then echoed into school, but then also being privileged enough with where I grew up

to have a good school and a good support network around me. I went in to do psychology, wasn't really sure what I wanted to do then. I knew that I liked helping people, which sounds a bit cliche, but it doesn't feel like work if it's something that you enjoy doing. When you were a teenager, would you have liked someone like yourself yeah definitely I think I was lucky enough I did have somebody from the council does make a massive difference just having that that person believing in you and just checking up on you and that genuine kind of oh they do care what sort of teenager were you, Robin? I think it depends who you ask, I'm joking. That's the point, isn't it?

Yeah, I was very bright. I wasn't very confident. I had good friends. I had lots of friends. But I was just very lost, I think, and just didn't really see a way out. I was very caring. I know that. So I've got siblings and always very caring. Just a complete kind of like breakdown in relationships at home there was a lot of like emotional abuse there was physical abuse my mum was a single parent so she was struggling she was doing her best it just wasn't a good situation ended up on

child protection at 16 which isn't very common at all usually you know people are coming off at 16 and then ended up moving out into semi-independent accommodation you know just leaving year 11 I managed to get through that but there were days all the time when I didn't think I would and that's why in this kind of role we're like with these young people it's those times when they don't think they're going to get out of it and those times when they think this is it, or no-one cares and I'm on my own and this. Sometimes you can be a lifeline and sometimes you are that everyday contact or that reassurance. My support network was a professional support network.

It wasn't parental, it wasn't family. It was very much bounded by when these professionals were able to see me or contact me. So Christmas was always hard. It still is hard sometimes now, even as an adult, because it just brings back memories. Of what, being by yourself? Wondering where you would be spending that Christmas, yeah.

And do you see yourself in some of the young people then? I do kind of relate. Even with the anxiety with professionals, having that kind of, if you speak to this professional, you're going to end up in care, and some of that is still very much a narrative and a belief in a lot of young people and even their parents that if they accept support from these professionals,

they feel like their parenting's under scrutiny, their behaviour's under scrutiny, and it's not a case of that, but sometimes you just need a little bit of help. A little bit of help. People who show up. Not being judged as a parent or a young person. It seems simple. Back to Robin and me talking together and Robin boosting me's confidence. I met you at school didn't I first and I thought she't belong here. And that's just the impression that I got. She's very polite. I can't say enough positives, really. Very bright.

A little bit shy sometimes, but we'll work on that. Funny and caring. Very caring of your friends and your family. I don't think she sees her potential. I don't think she believes fully in herself. But we'll get there. There's been a lot of changes haven't there in the past couple of months so obviously from living at nana's to like the bed and breakfast not a very

nice bed and breakfast was it just moving now some he needs some stability when they were first moved into temporary accommodation this showed a dedication to school. She was travelling two hours by bus from another part of Manchester to get to school. Do you mind me asking a little bit about what took you out of mainstream school? Behaviour. Fighting. What led you to get involved with fighting? People would just start for no reason.

So I'd just get angry. I'd get told a rumour or something saying someone said they're going to batter me and then I get told and then I believe it's true when it might not be. I remember that at my own school. The kids goaded to fight, the ones who just

couldn't regulate their emotions. We all need some help sometimes. Mia's doing well, with Robin's support. What's it like for you, Robin, when you begin to see a change in a young person? There's nothing more rewarding than seeing that change. You also have to understand, like, young people and children and teenagers and people in general are never perfect and they're always going to make mistakes. I'll be there to pick up the pieces with them and, like, we've made a mistake here how do we put it right. Do some of

them keep you up at night? Yes. What are you up to now? So we're going to drop me off at home and catch mum if mum's still there actually. Sorry. Thanks a lot. Yeah, go and get warm. You take care. Yeah, thank you there. See you later. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.