Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour special following the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Woman's Hour special following the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.We'll be talking to Historians Tracy Borman and Kate Williams. Editor of Hello Magazine Rosie Nixon. Helen Lewis from the Atlantic. And artist Tracey Emin.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome. Today on Woman's Hour we celebrate the life of Queen Elizabeth II, the longest reigning monarch in British history whose devotion to the job was undeniable. She was an extraordinary woman, the most famous woman on earth. But as well as being the Queen, she was also a working mother. She became a mum to Charles at the age of 22, a grandmother, a great-grandmother,

who had to navigate her duty to the country, life in the public eye, as well as living through turbulent times within her family, with the world looking on and more specifically looking to and at her. When we've been through turbulent times as a country, we've also looked to and at her. Here she is addressing the nation in lockdown. We should take comfort that while we may have more still to endure, better days will return. We will be with our friends again.

We will be with our families again. We will meet again. Her passing will be felt in so many ways in the coming days and weeks as we adjust to a world without her constant presence and step into a new era of King Charles III. In the next hour, we'll think about the Queen as a woman and we'll be speaking to a variety of women about what she meant to them. But of course, this programme wouldn't be what it is without your input. So I'd like to hear from you this morning. How are you feeling? What are your thoughts about Queen Elizabeth II? What did

she mean to you? Were you lucky enough to meet her? How was the experience? Please get in touch in the usual ways. You can email us via our website, 84844 is the number of text. You can leave us a WhatsApp message on 03700 100 444. Or, and this would be nice, we'd actually love to hear from you. Leave us a voice note with your name and where you are in the country now my voice notes are like mini podcasts but please keep yours short and we

will try and put your voices on air it's the same number 03700 100 444 queen elizabeth the second's lifespan the time from the general general strike in 1926 through world War II, to us putting a man on the moon, to the digital revolution. She welcomed in 15 new prime ministers, was the head of the Commonwealth, was a great global diplomat for the UK, and she did her job with a great sense of style and panache. She became a global icon, instantly recognisable around the world, as well as a role model for so many as a working mother who adapted to changing times. As Woman's Hour celebrated its 75th anniversary in 2021, she took the time to send us and you, the listeners, a message saying,

you have witnessed and played a significant part in the evolving role of women across society, both here and around the world. In this notable anniversary year, I wish you continued success in your important work as a friend, guide and advocate to women everywhere. The programme received the Queen's blessing. 84844 is that number to text. Now, as the longest reigning monarch who at the age of 25, just 25, took to the throne, Queen Elizabeth II's reign was marked

by a strong sense of duty and determination to serve the British public. Well here to tell us a bit more about the woman behind the throne and how it all began for her are historians Tracey Borman and Kate Williams. Welcome to the show two of us. Now Tracey, she was so devoted to service until the last Tuesday, still working. Absolutely. It's just extraordinary. We've never seen that in history. A monarch working up until two days before her death. And that absolutely characterises the Queen's approach throughout her long reign. At the very beginning of that reign, the future Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, said, she loves her duty and means to be a queen.

And that was so true. And also early in the reign, the Times newspaper predicted that a monarch's success would depend not on, quote, intellectual brilliance or superlative talent, but upon the moral qualities of steadiness, staying power and self-sacrifice. And I think that absolutely defines the Queen's long reign. Indeed it does, Kate. She ticked all those boxes.

And you mentioned there education. She was actually educated at home, wasn't she? She was educated at home. And this was because her family didn't expect her to be queen. She was a little girl who was simply expected to make a good marriage. That was her destiny. And when she was 10, the abdication of her uncle thrust her into this new world that was really quite terrifying. And yet she approached it with this incredible sense of duty, incredible determination. She was going to be a strong and dutiful monarch. She promised on her 21st birthday that my whole life, whether it be long or short,

shall be dedicated to your service. And it's very interesting, isn't it, Anita, how often she signed herself your servant, even on the message that she gave out earlier this year on the eve of her accession date, discussing about the future for Charles, she signed it, Elizabeth R, your servant. And we have many great monarchs in history, Victoria, Elizabeth I, but I don't think they would have signed themselves your servant. She really was someone who believed in service, who believed in duty. And just as you and Tracy were saying, right up until the very end, she was doing her constitutional duty, an absolutely remarkable woman and a remarkable reign. So let's go back a little bit. And for those people who are unaware, how did she end up inheriting the throne? Because if she had a brother, she wouldn't have been queen,

would she? That's right. And it was all thanks to the abdication of her uncle, Edward VIII. And then the throne passed to the queen's father as George VI. And apparently, from that moment, one of Elizabeth's households said that she began ardently praying for a brother, so that the throne would pass her by. But of course, that brother never materialised. And I think it just speaks volumes about her sense of duty that like her father she was reluctant to take on the enormous responsibility of being queen but she dedicated her life to that job. So what did her role as monarch include? What were some of the duties and responsibilities that many people may not know about? Well, Elizabeth II absolutely upheld her constitutional role.

She never strayed beyond that. The constitutional role really, simply put, involves being consulted, being able to encourage and being able to warn the politicians, the prime ministers that she works with. And so, in a sense, the monarch has less political power, even than her subjects, because she was only able to acknowledge the arrival of a government, not to vote it in.

But still, the monarch plays an important constitutional role. And we know that Elizabeth II studied the constitution as a child. It was very much instilled into her by her father. And as I said, she lived by it. She fulfilled her duties unflinchingly. And I think she's unprecedented in that. I think you're absolutely right. I think it's really striking, Kate, that she was praying for a brother. So she had no choice in the matter, did she? She had no choice. And yet it was, she embraced it with this incredible strength of character, this conscientiousness. And as just as Tracy was saying, she really approached this very complicated constitutional role. And of course, we have to remember that when she came to the throne

in 1952, it wasn't a time of working women. There were very few women in positions of power, we wouldn't have a female prime minister until 79. There were no female train drivers and there wasn't even a female bank manager. And really, this was a time when women were supposed to go back into the home in the post-war period. And to have a woman in a position, most of all, a married woman and a mother. Well, there was a lot of people saying this isn't appropriate. You know, mothers can't do this kind of work, married women, because women in positions were usually single. And really, the Queen was an incredible force who really showed the power of her personality, the power of her character, surrounded by quite a few naysayers in the political class, male naysayers.

She wasn't part of their class. She wasn't a man from a boarding school. And she really did prove, as Winston Churchill, who was initially dubious and then was won over, no movie star could do the role better. How did she win them over? What was the quality? How did she manage it? That must have been so tough, you know, when culture dictated that women just didn't,

weren't in any roles of power or positions of power. No, and I think that, yes, initially, Churchill said she's just a child. What a strange thing to say about someone who was 25 and a mother of two. And many men, I think, felt the same in the political class. They thought she was beautiful and attractive and popular, but they were dubious about what kind of monarch she'd make compared to the weighty male monarchs before.

And I think with the strength of personality, the strength of character, her actual, even though her education perhaps wasn't as wide-ranging as others might have been, she was really an incredible intellect, had this powerful memory, never forgot anything. It's amazing. I've been listening to all the tributes,

people talking on the television and Instagram, those who've met her. She met millions and millions of people, probably about 4 million people. And people say how she remembered them. She met millions and millions of people, probably about 4 million people. And people say how she remembered them. She remembered details about them. The power of her intellect and the power of her character really transformed perceptions of her. And she will be looked back on, I think, as one of the greatest, if not the greatest monarch we've ever had.

And also something I heard someone say about her yesterday, which I thought was very striking, was that she had the common touch, which for somebody who was born into the incredible privilege that she was born into and didn't go to school and would have not mixed with real people, you know, her subjects growing up, to have that ability is quite remarkable. And I think her growing up outside of the actual line of succession meant that although she wasn't an ordinary child, she had quite a different kind of royal life. But also it's fascinating because when she came to the throne, many people said she'll be respected, but she won't be loved. And she's got both. She's respected and she's loved. And that common touch really has come out through her humour. We just think about just 10 years ago when we thought she actually might be jumping out of a helicopter over the Olympic ceremony and she was having that lovely chat with Paddington earlier this year.

The people really enjoy, you know, they really talk about how much they love to meet her and love to, that she had so much to talk about. And I think that she did have the common touch. And really, that was because she saw herself as the servant of the people. And she wished to listen to people and to really know what was going on in the country, the Commonwealth and the world. So what would you say were the moments that really tested her as Queen? Well, I would say that the greatest crises for the Queen involved the scandals within her family. And really, that was evident from the very beginning with her sister Margaret's very well publicised affair with Peter Townsend and the unravelling of that. And it seemed to set a bit of a tone really for the rest of her reign. And then in the 1980s, that really reached its zenith in the 90s with the marriage of her son Charles to Diana,

which was played out on the most public stage possible. But throughout, the Queen, I think, played it brilliantly. She kept her counsel. She kept her dignity. And she upheld the constancy of the role that she encompassed and the institution that she represented. And there's a lovely quote about the danger for a monarch of letting daylight in on magic. And I think she always kind of guarded the privacy of her role very carefully. But at the same time, as we've just been saying, she did interact with the people. She was fantastic at talking to people. Her wit is well described. So I think she struck the balance just perfectly.

And lived by the Queen Mother's note, never explain, never complain. Absolutely. I read somewhere, we've got two historians, so I'm fact checking here, that she was born by a Caesarean section at Bruton Street. But as tradition dictated back then, the Home Secretary had to witness the birth. That's right. And that had been a tradition for a couple of hundred years. It was actually stopped about 10 years after the Queen's birth. I think her cousin Alexandra was the last one where the Home Secretary was present. And so the Queen herself, I'm sure was very pleased that for the births of her own children, the Home Secretary was well and truly absent. And it was very significant, of course, wasn't it? Because she was born just before the general strike, this mass strike in which working men

who served so much in World War One were saying now, now we are starving and hungry. And so the government was in crisis. And yet the Home Secretary had to leave these important discussions, because it was a key duty to assent the legitimacy of the child. Fascinating stuff. Kate and Tracy, stay with us. We will come back to you shortly. Now, she was a global icon, the most recognisable woman on earth. She ruled over us for seven decades and to boot. She was on portraits, to pop, to our stamps, coins, banknotes. Well, I'm joined now by staff writer of The Atlantic, Helen Lewis, Rosie Nixon, who's editor-in-chief of Hello Magazine,

and the artist, Tracey Emin. Morning to you all. Tracey, let me come to you first. You were appointed a CBE in 2013 for your contribution to the visual arts at Buckingham Palace. a lot of smiles, a lot of laughter. And she was actually, my word for her, I'd say she was pretty cool, because the exhibition that we were looking at was called something like Nothing But Youth. And even this show went a bit above my head. And so it was a really good conversation that we had,

and I liked her sort of openness towards the situation. It was really not what I was expecting and very, very refreshing. You've described yourself as a strong royalist. What have you most admired about the Queen? Well, I say strong royalist because so many people were so negative towards the royals when i was growing up and i always just saw them as people and yet people might not agree with me but i always saw them as people that were doing that were working i mean the queen all those public engagements all

that that constant smile that constant energy having to know everything, having to be informed by everything flying around the world. And it wasn't her choice. But she did it extremely well. You know, I mean, basically, her and her sister were debutantes, enjoying their young life. You know, they were it girls, having a great time. And then suddenly she becomes queen. I mean, at 25. I mean, most people just like, I don't know, they're kind of it's at 25 i mean most people just like i don't know they're kind of

pretty reckless at 25 so at this point tracy i'm going to share that i've been lucky enough to meet the queen as well and like you i was just disarmed i was very you feel i was very nervous because you don't you know about to meet the queen you don't know what the what she's going to be like or what what you're going to feel like completely disarmed everybody because she was just so down to earth but what was really great with me was the security came to first of all i was having a one-to-one meeting with her for 10 minutes on my own and so it wasn't like a sort of you know line up it wasn't a queue it was just me and her i mean that's that's the way to do it that's the way to do it very lucky you know line up it wasn't a queue it was just me and her i mean that's that's the way to do it that's the way to do it very lucky you know so and then her security had said to me you know don't shake the queen's hand the queen will place her hand out if she wishes to shake your hand and

you know this kind of protocol suggested yes yes yes you know and then she came across like about 20 meters away because it was a big art gallery it turned a contemporary and as she came towards me as soon as she came at the door she was reaching her hand out cussing her hands in front of her and we were both laughing and smiling because i was completely aware of what the situation was and so was she was so radically strange that i should be that i should be the queen in margate you know it was just it was like a kind of weird dream a wonderful dream lucky you Tracy I'm going to bring in Rosie from Hello magazine um editor-in-chief Rosie Hello is known for its royal coverage global magazine how often did you

have the Queen on your cover and how popular was she as a cover girl? Well, I'm very envious of Tracy's 10 minutes with the Queen. That's incredible. But we were lucky enough to know over the years that the Queen did read Hello! magazine and that it was available in all royal households, which was a real honour for us to hear. She appeared on our cover more than any other cover star in the last year at the age of 96. I think her popularity was perhaps at an all-time high and I'm very glad that we all had the opportunity as a nation to show our gratitude towards her with the Platinum Jubilee celebrations. I mean she always felt

almost felt invincible didn't she and I feel like we have woken up in a new era today. You're right you know she did feel invincible. It's almost alien to say king. I think we're just going to have to get used to it. We've been so lucky to have a woman at the helm for so long. Was she a reader of Hello! magazine? We know that the magazine was read in the royal household, yes, and I did receive a really wonderful letter from her private secretary just before the Platinum Jubilee

celebrations to me and the team, letting us know that she was looking forward to seeing and enjoying the fruits of our labour over that time. So she understood that people were working hard in her honour, which was a really lovely thing to hear as well. So we worked very hard throughout the night last night, putting together a tribute issue that will go on sale tomorrow. I'm going to bring Helen in here, Helen Lewis, a writer at The Atlantic. You write articles for America as well. Helen, what's the reaction been over there? Yeah, I think there were some Americans who were kind of performatively grumpy about the fact that this is taking up so much airtime and encroaching even on their airtime. But, you know, it's always been very obvious to me that whenever I've written pieces for The Atlantic about the royal family,

there's been enormous, enormous interest. You know, the Meghan Markle's interview with Oprah was a huge media event in America, just as much as it was here. And consistently, the thing that American journalists most want to talk to Meghan about is, you know, her connection with the royal family. So as a global brand, the royals were unsurpassed, I think, really. And she, you know, lots of lots has been said about the seven decades that she's reigned, but she really had to adapt to so many changing

times, didn't she? I think that's true. The piece that I wrote for The Atlantic talked about the fact, you know, she was older than Marilyn Monroe and anne frank and elvis presley who all now seem like figures from a very distant past you know she simply went on for so long that she was a living connection to a time that is otherwise lost and i think particularly a connection to the the second world war you know which is really the kind of founding myth of modern britain and something i think most britains feel that they can be very proud of um and you know she represented a a link back to that so she did stand for a certain type of britishness and you know one of the things the americans are particularly keen to talk about when i've been looking at is the kind of decolonization process and i think it is often

underrated how much the creation of the commonwealth allowed britain to find a new post-imperial place in the world she smoothed that path over. And what qualities did she have that meant that she was able to smooth that over? I think she was somebody who was just used to meeting an enormous amount of people and dealing with people as she found them. So I think she found it quite easy to talk to the Commonwealth heads of government in a way perhaps that someone like Margaret Thatcher didn't, that she really felt that she had a sense of duty and service and that she had a particular role to fulfill and she was a servant. And if people didn't want her anymore, then that was their

legitimate choice. And I think a monarch with a different personality could have acted very differently during that period. But for example, she welcomed Harold Macmillan's Winds of Change speech about African decolonisation. So she was somebody who was pushing always for Britain to have this, you know, new place in the world. You know, having been born to a royal family that was still an imperial royal family, she found something new there. And she changed the way she spoke as well, which I found very interesting. I think it's really interesting now, because obviously in preparing to write about her, I went back and listened to those early broadcasts. And you can chart the kind of decline of a particular idea of England,

although her mother was Scottish, in her accent and the way that she begins to kind of glottal stop. And, you know, she began to use Zoom during the pandemic. And again, I think that has been a really important quality. You know, people who feel that the world is changing very fast. There was always the Queen still there to look up to, a kind of North Star, I said, you know, that people are into themselves about. And the conversation that I've been having most regularly with people is about how it's made them think about maybe their gran who they really miss or their old mum who they really miss. And I think that's what's caused some of the grief that perhaps people in other countries don't understand so easily

is that she comes to represent a kind of generation for a lot of Britons that we feel quite fondly about. And I think if you haven't been brought up here, that's maybe a harder thing to kind of understand that she kind of became the nation's grandmother in time. Lots of people getting in touch actually with the programme and just off the back of what you're saying, Helen, Barbara Buckley's been in touch to say,

when asked her age, my mother always replied, the same age as the Queen. My mother died at 96 this week, the day before the Queen. She saw her twice in person when they were nine and her father's coronation and when they were both 90 at the Palace Garden Party. Oh, you're lucky, Mum. My mother, like the Queen, leaves a legacy of grand and great-grandchildren

and a life of service. My mother's more humble, a church cleaner until she was 90 and a maker of teas for every occasion going in the village. That generation was special in so many ways. So exactly what you're saying, people remember her, will remember her like the members of their own family. So much, Helen, is going to change now. Stamps, banknotes, lawyers will no longer be saying Queen's Council.

We'll be singing God Save the Queen. God Save the King, even, not God Save the Queen. There you go. I need to get used to what we'll be singing now. Yeah, I did have that moment. The first time I read, you know, the King sends his condolences, that was the moment I thought, oh, this is going to be different in lots of ways that perhaps we haven't really thought about. I mean, there are only 150,000 people in Britain who are older than 95. So very few people are older and now still alive who are older than the queen.

Again, not that many people now remember a time before she was on the throne or were very young, at least when she was crowned. So, you know, for most of us, our idea of monarchy is the queen. And we're going to have to find out what that means. Charles is a much more political figure. He's been quite outspoken in some of his political opinions. That's going to change the relationship of monarchy and politics. And, you know, it's I mean, but to me, the most the most interesting sort of tweet that I've seen, or actually it wasn't a tweet because he's been banned from Twitter. Donald Trump, a man who will insult absolutely everybody, sent a very, I mean, presumably not him, a very sincere message of condolence,

which kind of speaks to the fact that even Donald Trump, maybe the one of the most offensive and deliberately gratuitously offensive people in the world, knows that there are some people who you don't disrespect and I think we were very lucky as a country that has you know but I think lots of people have felt a sense of national decline about maybe in the last few decades to have a figure who was genuinely a figure of world standing that has been something I think British people felt that they could be proud of for the last 70 years. And Rosie you know this firsthand what impact do you think she's had on our cultural life? Well I think for me it was her calm authority when the Queen spoke we listened you know she never shouted she was never angry you know we never heard one word of complaint in the whole 70 years or yet she was able to pick kind of very choice words to show her upset or displeasure and

I think her words we shall meet again during the height of the pandemic was an extremely poignant moment because she transcends politics and A-list celebrity. She was in a class of her own. Also in recent times, she's overseen, I guess, the rehabilitation of Camilla, Queen Consort, when she expressed her desire for her

to serve alongside Charles. An incredible thing to have stood in terms of altering public perception, isn't it? Yeah, it was great to hear her voice of support for Camilla. And we've obviously come to know our new King and his Queen Consort quite deeply over the years. And so I think the Queen passed away peacefully, sort of knowing that she'd left the monarchy in safe hands, a pared down, smaller monarchy. I mean, even the younger generations are getting involved now. We're seeing her great-grandchildren have roles. It was great to see Princess Charlotte recently showing her support for the lionesses. So I think she went sort of happy knowing that the monarchy was in safe hands. So a big change for you at the helm of Hello then, Rosie.

That's right. Although we will continue to celebrate her life, you know, as long as the nation needs us to do that. So we're dedicated to keeping her in the news and her legacy will last and last. And I think Prince Charles will continue to lead in the way that his mother has set the tone. Well, he's been brought up by a great role model, that's for sure. He really has, yeah. Helen, how prepared do you think we are for change?

Not at all, actually. I think it's going to be quite a bumpy landing. And I think there's going to be, next week, I think we'll begin to be quite, I imagine there'll be more bickering next week because the national mourning period is going to continue. I think some people will feel that that's too long in the period in the time of 24-7 news. There is also obviously Liz Truss, the Prime Minister, the very new Prime Minister

made an enormously important announcement and now basically Parliament is on hold for the duration of the mourning period and that's very tough to deal with and i think that while we are appreciating how significant um a news event this is there is also a sense that we have to deal with the fact that there are big things happening in politics um and that actually you know one of the queen's abiding principles was about continuity and stability and and i think it'd be a difficult

line for politicians to walk, particularly next week, about how they can assure people of continuity and stability about their political situation while respecting that mourning period. And we will be discussing it as of on Women's Hour. Helen Lewis and Rosie Nixon, thank you so much. And Tracey Emin for joining us. Now, we asked you for your recollections of the Queen on WhatsApp.

Let's hear from Jane. Many years ago, I wrote to the Queen at Buckingham Palace, asking her if she'd like to take tea with my mother. And I received a letter back from her, one of her ladies-in-waiting, headed paper from Balmoral, saying that the Queen had read my letter, thanked me for it, but unfortunately, due to pressing engagements, she wouldn't be able to take tea with my mother, but appreciated the offer. And she sent me a photograph of her and her husband, the Prince, and it remained one of my own mother, who died at nearly 100. It remained one of her most precious and cherished possessions. And I just thought, what a lovely thing to do that she reads every single letter

that people wrote to her and actually acknowledges it. For her and my daughter, who's named after her, she'll always be a cherished and treasured memory. Hello, my name is Pandora. I am a single mum and a doctor living in Kent and incredibly sad about the loss of Her Majesty the Queen. I feel that she's an incredible example of resilience and during the pandemic and still now, doctors and medical staff are told all the time about how to be resilient. And there isn't a greater example in our lifetime than the Queen. So much so that when I go to work now, I'm thinking of taking a small picture of the Queen and putting it on my desk just to remind myself every day of the huge, huge sacrifice that she has given to our country and the extreme resilience she has shown in so many situations as a great example to us all. Hearing from you, our listeners today, 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to share your thoughts and feelings about the Queen or if you were lucky enough to meet her, what that experience was like.

Or if you'd like to drop us a voice note, leave us your name and where you you're from 03700 100 444 a message here from someone saying i work in a large open plan office in manhattan devastated colleagues of all nationalities came up to me the token english person to pass on their condolences yesterday but what struck me was in the dozens of conversations i overheard or was part of she she was referred to as the Queen, not your Queen or Queen Elizabeth. Clearly New Yorkers see her as our global Queen. Now central to the Queen's life and role was her faith. She was Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England, a title that dates back to the reign of Henry VIII and of course that now passes to King Charles III. Well Reverend Rose Hudson Wilkin is the Bishop of Dover

and was chaplain to the Queen for a decade. Welcome, Rose, to Woman's Hour. Your reaction to the sad news? Yes, there is a real sense of sadness. It's a moment we know was inevitable, but one that we hoped would never come. I know you say it was inevitable, but in some way she felt immortal. Yes, because she was that constant presence with us all the time.

So I do feel that sense of sadness but underlying that sadness is a real a real foundation that she she has left us with because what we had from her and in her was a life that had a faith that gave her such confidence and you know she carried the title supreme governor of the church of england the head of the church but this wasn't just a title you know this was someone who had a faith and who lived the faith. Why was her faith so important to her? I guess her faith became important to her. When you start out in the way she did at such a young age, then you need something to hold you up, to propel you, to keep you going. And I guess she looked to her faith then, back then,

if you remember that prayer of commitment that she would, whether her life was long or short, she was going to commit herself and asking us to pray for her, that she will be faithful to that. And my God, was she faithful to that commitment. You know, I often think of her as a real evangelist. Evangelism is about good news. And here was a woman, you know, when everyone was dancing around, oh, faith is private, we never talk about it, you know, we're British. Here was this woman who, in every Christmas message,

she never failed to talk about what was at the core of that and the core of her own life. So how did her faith reflect in her life then? How did it guide her, do you think? I think it guided her in particular through the storms, through the storms. There's the poem that she gave to her father when she was 13, again, at a very young age, which is quite poignant. You know, I said to the man who stood at the gate of the year, give me a light that I may tread safely into the unknown.

And he replied, go out into the darkness and put your hand in the hand of God. That shall be to you better than light and safer than a known way. So here she is knowing that with her hand in God's hand, she can keep going. And my goodness, did she stay on track. I mean, Tracy, it's one thing taking, becoming, having to step into the role of queen the role that wasn't really meant to be for her but destiny dictated that she was going to sit on the throne but also to become defender of the faith now this goes back to Henry VIII it does it's a very historic title and Henry VIII was awarded it by the Pope for upholding the Roman Catholic religion, which proved to be

quite ironic given the reformation that followed. But so it has remained the title of the monarch for the 500 years ever since. And the Queen, as we have heard, took it incredibly seriously. Her personal faith was such a linchpin for her. And I think perhaps that she upheld that title even more passionately and rigorously than when it was originally conveyed to her Tudor ancestor. In what sense? In that it was a very personal faith for her. It wasn't just about the public nature of that role as being head of the church, defender of the faith. As we've heard, it was faith was the guiding principle of her reign. And and I think she drew an awful lot of comfort from that. It was Helen also brought up the Commonwealth and we were just speaking to Helen.

I'd like to ask you, Rose, what do you what do you feel about her role as leader of the Commonwealth? You know, as daughter of the Commonwealth, I'm from Jamaica. Yes. And growing up there, you know, we learned about Her Majesty the Queen, etc. And so, you know, she is loved in the commonwealth absolutely loved and you know even if and already various nations have all you know are saying you know we no longer want the queen as the head of state but that does not take away the love and the respect that she is held in um i visited papua New Guinea once and Prince Philip was worshipped as a god there.

And in Pidgin, and this particularly made me smile, the Queen was known as, lovingly, Mama Belong Big Family. How beautiful is that? Now, isn't that terrific? You know, I often think of her not firstly as a queen, but I think of her as a mother, a grandmother, and a great-grandmother. That's how I see her. And, you know, there you saw her as she greeted

our new prime minister, a small figure. But in Jamaica, we have a saying that says, in other words, I'm little, but I'm tallow. In other words, I'm small, but I am strong. And she was strong. Absolutely. 84844, lots of you getting in touch, wanting to talk about your feelings this morning. Here we have a message to say, we were on holiday in Collinsay, an island

the Queen frequently visited when sailing in Scotland on Britannia. We settled on a beach and were aware we were being observed and then a small boat appeared without a word. The sailors reached shore and set out a red gangway

straight into the sand. Out came the Queen, Princess Anne and her husband with dog and another person. She apologised for disturbing our picnic and they headed up the beach to the nearby dunes and off for a walk. We later saw photos from the same walk further on in August 96 edition of Hello. We commissioned a collage from a local artist to mark the day we met the Queen. And that's from June Find Later. What a lovely memory.

Now, last summer, the Queen at 96 was voted the most influential female role model of the past 100 years in a survey conducted by Good Housekeeping magazine in the UK. During lockdown in 2020, she addressed the nation. As I said earlier, we've looked to the Queen for guidance in times of crisis, addressing the nation during the COVID lockdown, when she thanked NHS workers and drew us together with a message of hope. Well, earlier this morning, I spoke to the journalist and author Mary Killen, who wrote What Would Her Majesty the Queen Do? And you'll also know her from Gogglebox on Channel 4. I began

by asking her how she was feeling. Well, I'm upset, of course, because we've lost an incredible role model. But obviously it was going to happen someday soon. This is true. Does it feel like it's happened sooner than we expected, though? It was a bit of a shock, but I think we knew that things weren't going that well physically when she started to talk about mobility issues, or her spokespeople did. But everyone's very shocked, including young people who didn't often think about her. Because I suppose that everyone alive, virtually everyone alive, has never known her not being a metaphorical mother in a way. And it was just so reassuring to know that there was somebody who was such an obvious symbol of goodness and service who represented us and was there for us in a metaphorical way. She was there for us, wasn't she?

What did she mean to you, Mary? Well, I thought if I could copy her in the ways she, you know, like a self-help book, how did she manage to do it? She had various methods which allowed her to carry on for so many years. And I think a lot of them were well of course her Christian faith was the main propeller then the idea that she wanted to serve and she'd agreed that she would serve until she died serving others is an abstract concept but that's what she did I obviously I don't do anything like that but i followed the way she uh i tried to follow various things she did she concentrated when she spoke to people she because you wrote a book

didn't you what would her majesty the queen do and this is you trying to live by her values and what she does the ultimate self-help book because there were things she did. She, continuity, she went to the same places every year on holiday. Scotland. Scotland, Balmoral, Sandringham. But when you think of how many people she had to process and how many, frankly, awful people she had to entertain on state visits. And yet she kept it up.

And this was because she was serving us. She did it for us. And also, you know, she was a very, thanks to her, a lot of diplomatic things happened because people fell under her spell and they wanted to please her. I think behind the scenes she saved us from an awful lot please her. I think behind the scenes, she saved us from an awful lot of trouble. I think you mentioned something really interesting there. She was an incredible diplomat, wasn't she?

Yeah. And I think the thing about her was that you could tell just by looking at her that she was a really super good person with no agenda for herself she just wanted to help and Mary when you saw her give the address during Covid that really upset you that made you cry yeah well it really it cheered me up in many ways because I thought it made us feel united instead of a whole lot of little units of misery. We were a united body of people who could, you know, be together in our, sort of recover together, get through it together. And it was unusual for her to make an address at that time

because it wasn't, I mean, we're living in unprecedented times, but it was just, it was exactly what the nation needed. She was very adaptable. And I think she had a da, she knew. She would, of course, turn down certain things, but she wasn't bossed about. She knew that was required at that time. And it was an enormous help.

Mary Killam there sharing her thoughts about Queen Elizabeth II and I'm delighted to say the technology works. We are getting your voice notes in. Here's a voice note from Georgia in Bury St Edmunds. I was lucky enough to meet the Queen at the Chelsea Flower Show in 2019. I was incredibly nervous as she was approaching. When you're in her presence it's like time seems to stop

and she has this aura around her that's almost visible when she was talking to me it was like we were the only two people in the world it's something I'll never forget Lucky Georgia if you would like to try and get a voice note in not much time, but maybe we could squeeze in another couple before the end of the show. 03700 100 444. Well,

I'm joined now by Baroness Valerie Amos, Labour peer and former politician and by Olympian Dame Kelly Holmes. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Baroness Amos, you've received multiple honours from the Queen and you were the first black person appointed Lady Companion of the Order in December 2021. What an honour and what does it mean? Good morning. Thank you. What a really sad day for all of us as we reflect on events yesterday. today it was very special honor for me um not just about being the first but the fact that this was an honor which is made personally by uh the queen in recognition of uh public service and um i felt very strongly that it was not just for me but for all of those people who you know worked tirelessly

and are not necessarily uh recognized and we had garter day in june i was very privileged i had an audience with the queen at that time she was on really really good form we had a great conversation and it's something that I will remember for the rest of my life what did you talk about oh we talked about a whole range of things including uh about her doing the Paddington uh sketch which she was very funny about I mean that that made the nation smile I think actually I shed a tear when I saw that. It was really emotional. How influenced have you been personally by the Queen's life of service? Oh, I think many of us have been influenced by her. Her calmness under pressure, her thoughtfulness,

her curiosity. And for me, her kindness and warmth. She was always very kind to me, very warm. I was president, Lord President of the Council, which means that I presided over pretty council meetings for four years and would have an audience a few minutes with her every month for nine months of the year. I didn't always get the protocol right. What did you get wrong? What did you get wrong? That's what we want to know. Oh, I, you know, I was, you're escorted in and making sure that you bow or curtsy at the right time. And there was one challenging, we'll call it a challenging Privy Council meeting

where I could not pronounce the word properly. I knew how it should be pronounced, but I kept starting it the wrong way. And of course, she's not allowed, she doesn't say anything. I was waiting for my colleagues who were at the Privy Council meeting to help me out and they all just stood there and she just waited patiently until i got it right i'm going to bring dame kelly holmes in here because uh welcome to woman's hour you've

met the queen you met her several times including receiving your damehood at buckingham palace what was that like and and can you relate to what Baroness Valerie is saying about getting the protocol right and feeling nervous? I can, yeah. Good morning. It's every single time I have been in the presence of Her Majesty, it is a complete honour. The aura is true, one of your guests said before.

You know, I have an affiliation from many years, not just from getting my damehood. Obviously, I've served for my country, and the relationship between the Queen and the armed forces is so deeply personal, because you pledge allegiance to the Queen, and that doesn't just mean doing your service, that means forever.

And for me, hearing this news is completely upsetting. I feel that, you know, she's been a consistent for us through really bad times, good times. She's always been there. And as a service personnel as well, that connection is really strong because she's, you know, she's the only female monarchy to have served in the country. She joined when she was 19.

She was a driver. I joined as a driver when I first joined the military. So those connections are really real and true and strong. But the protocol, I'll go back to your protocols, I had a similar experience getting my damehood. And the Queen has a really great personality, only when i've met her a number of times but i remember thinking when i got my dame that you know it's equivalent to third and i wanted to kneel down you know to get the cross swords you know i'm thinking wow i'm gonna have these cross swords over my shoulders

you know when i go into this room and they bring sort of the higher ranking officers from the military and um civilian personnel who are getting sort of lord ladies statements etc and uh i was going to the general oh this is so good i just can't believe this you know i went to kneel down and said no no no you can't kneel down the queen doesn't allow ladies to kneel down i was like what you know and you kind of have this whole vision in your head that you're going to go up and you get called in to the state room

and all I had in my head and I was having this genuine that I am going to kneel down and go, no, no, no, don't get me, don't. But you just have those feelings because she is such,

oh, I can go on. I'm distraught, devastated for everybody, but it means so much to have served under her, but to be alive during her reign. Yeah, incredibly special. It's really nice to hear this story, though.

I quite like that you went down to it. I think that's the nice twist on your personal story there. What are your thoughts on her as a role model? Oh, without a doubt. You know, we have to remember from a female perspective, you know, I've been in lots of different industries where we always talk about females fight to get equal kind of acceptance and things.

And we've had a female leading our state you know she's the second longest monarchy this she's this strong as i said consistent um presence and i think again i've heard been said before but it's something i believe is i feel that we've been great britain because of her you know people come to see a monarchy, but they come because of the historical association with the Queen and everything she brings to it. I think she absolutely is a role model. It's somebody that we should all live up to,

believe in with her values and her respect. And I don't think anyone can ever say that they serve their own industry in that way. You know, she's never let us down. She's always been there. And it's someone that we can all look up to. And I hope that the young people today are starting watching and hearing how much she has done for us. I hope they realise that and realise how sort of honour and privileged they were to again be alive during her reign.

And we will be thinking about this a lot, a lot over the next coming weeks and months and even longer, I'm sure. You were lucky enough to be part of the Platinum Jubilee celebrations, Dame Kelly. Looking back, just how fitting were those celebrations? Oh, wasn't it wonderful? It was just the best day. You know, 70 years around who would have thought you don't have thought we'd be doing this that's one thing but then to be there on the day and i have to say my abiding memory was being on the stage and the pageant and her majesty the queen coming out onto the balcony that i was in floods of tears. That, I was in floods of tears.

I mean, I've been in floods of tears anyway since yesterday, but any time I ever saw the Queen, I'm like, oh my God, that's huge, you know. That was beautiful. And I think, again, from a military's perspective, we do it the best. And everything that the military do, they prepare for under the honor of the queen serving for the queen and that part of it was amazing i was part of that the day before and then we did the pageant and i just think we did it once for a nation you know we really care and we really i think uphold those values of what she meant to us and it was a special time it really was

and like you i was lucky enough to be there i'm just going to point out though she was fabulous to see her come out onto the balcony in that beautiful green outfit i mean again perfect sartorial choices are always spot on she always i remember going i have to say one thing i remember going to the races and we had the same color she had this beautiful blue dress and I happened to be wearing the same color jacket I kind of walked up and it's all very protocol when you normally you know you can't put your hand out before her mom um puts hers out and I just went to her oh my gosh you look wonderful a mom and her you know all of her eyes were like you know because I'm like he looks so lovely because he complimented her yeah yeah and I think you know you know I'm just kind of gushing over how she looks you know and everyone's faceed her. Yeah, and I'm thinking, oh, you know, I'm just kind of gushing over how she looks,

you know, and everyone's face is like, oh my God, you don't say that to me. The thing is though, I mean, Kate, Tracey, all of you, I mean, all this protocol

and we're hearing these really charming, delightful memories from Baroness Valerie and Dame Kelly. You sort of feel that the Queen just sort of took it all in her stride.

She really did. And I think that sense of duty and the stabilising presence she gave to the monarchy, I mean, it doesn't grab the history headlines in the same way as the king who married six times or the Virgin Queen. But arguably, that very lack of public drama was the secret of the Queen's success. I mean, she didn't have public drama, but she had plenty in the family that she had to navigate. Yes, that's true. She's had many ups and downs, many drops in popularity and real times of hard times and a lot of suffering in the family. And, you know, a real shock to her that there was intrusion into her family. But what I think is really striking about all these, so many of the tributes and these wonderful, Dame Kelly, how wonderful to hear from her.

People talk about what an inspiration she was, what a role model. And also, I think part of her great, the way she kept on was she enjoyed the job. When you think about just one of her last engagements, we saw her opening her own, the tube line, the Elizabeth line. She opened it in this wonderful yellow outfit and she was asking the member of staff how you top up your oyster card. She really was enjoying it. And I think really that was the, and when you look at the Queen, the great legacy that she has, we'll look back on her as really this, the high watermark, the high moment of monarchy, the influence,

the fact she traveled 42 times around the world her great diplomatic work and also we'll look at her as someone who took a great sense of joy and a great sense of achievement from the role of monarch she many monarchs have not enjoyed it and of course it has been hard at times but for many of her great occasions including the platinum jubilee you really can see her sense of fun and how much she loved it. How much she loved the job, stamina to keep going. I mean, really committed. I think if she'd been a friend, you might say,

do you want to maybe have a rest? But no, no, she's going to... I really admired the work ethic, really admired the work ethic. Let's talk about legacy then. You mentioned it there. What do you think, Tracey? Well, I mean, what characterizes the Queen's reign will be that that sense of duty and the unwavering kind of stabilizing presence and I think there's much to be learned from that for her successors but

I would just like to point to something in terms of legacy and it's very fitting for Woman's Hour in that I think the Queen's greatest legacy is that she finally introduced equality into the royal succession so that now women have equal precedence with men for the whole of time into the future. The firstborn child of the monarch, whether they be male or female, will inherit the throne. That was a truly revolutionary change. I don't think it's referred to enough. And I think that is arguably Elizabeth II's greatest legacy. And what do you think, Kate?

I think Elizabeth, I agree with Tracy, but I also think that Elizabeth's great legacy, her great founding principle, it was service, but it was also after seeing the horrors of World War II, it was that that should never happen again. We should try and live in peace. And when you think of her state visit to the Republic of Ireland, that historic state visit when she talked, represented the British government, said things should have been done differently. And she said peace can and will prevail. And

that her focus on peace, her focus on unity, nations coming together, and within this her own sense of duty and service. She really was a remarkable figure. We will never see the like again. Very true. I want to thank you both for coming in to speak to us on this historic day and this very special Women's Hour and

thank all of you for your messages. So many of you have been getting in touch. I'm sorry I haven't been able to read out all of them. I'll read out a couple more. Her Majesty was a true countrywoman at heart. We in rural Britain have lost the Queen of the countryside. And then end it with God save the King, something that we will all have to get used to saying. Last night, my four children were talking about the loss of our gracious Queen.

We all feel so sad. When I started to cry, my little boy said, don't worry, Mummy, at least she got to meet Paddington. And not many people get to do that. and that is from Gemma and April and I feel it's only fitting that we end the program today with a quote from the Queen's Christmas broadcast in 2008 and she said when life seems hard the courageous do not lie down and accept defeat. Instead, they are all the more determined to struggle for a better future. And that was from the Christmas broadcast in 2008. That's Woman's Hour. Thank you.

That's all for today's Woman's zen, that's my relaxation time. That is the question I ask guests on my podcast to discover their secrets to health and happiness. I see going to bed at the right time as an investment in tomorrow rather than a sacrifice for today. We'll get inspiration from their achievements and find out how they take care of their physical and mental health. I think it is really important for us to reflect on what have we missed, you know. The new series of the Joe X podcast from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC

Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.