Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour Special: Women's Rugby World Cup

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

Join Anita Rani as she broadcasts live from Blaydon Rugby Club in Gateshead ahead of the first game of the Women's Rugby World Cup. Tonight England kick off the tournament on home soil by facing the USA in Sunderland at the Stadium of Light. To preview tonight's game and the tournament to come, we are joined by former England player and World Cup winner Kat Merchant.We also hear from the Managing Director at World Rugby, Sarah Massey on how she hopes to ensure this World Cup is a success.Blaydon Rugby Club have a thriving women's side and they invited Anita to join them in a training session. KP, Hayley and Rosie, who play for the club, join Anita live to discuss not only being team mates but being family too!The England player Abbie Ward talks about her dream of finally lifting the World Cup trophy after being beaten in two finals. Abbie was the first player to benefit from the Rugby Football Union's landmark maternity policy for players. And tonight she will walk out at The Stadium of Light as she begins her dream of becoming world champion. She speaks to Anita about her hopes ahead of the World Cup.All four home nations have qualified for the Women's Rugby World Cup. Given England are hosting, it means fans from across Scotland, Wales, Ireland - who play with Northern Ireland - and of course England are within touching distance of one of the stadium's hosting. Four fans share their good luck messages for their teams.And with some saying rugby is the most accessible sport, why is it such a powerful tool for encouraging a positive body image? Joining Anita to discuss is Kat Merchant, now a personal trainer who celebrates her strength, and players of Blaydon Rugby Club.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce Editor: Karen Dalziel

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Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to the programme and welcome to Bladen Rugby Club in Gateshead. Yes, Team Woman's Hour have ventured to the North East in celebration of the Women's Rugby World Cup, which begins tonight in nearby Sunderland. So let me set the scene for you. Bladen Rugby Club is nearly 140 years old. It opened in 1888 and is an important part of the community here. I am broadcasting from the Buchanan Room, surrounded by photos of teams from years gone by, including a couple of women's teams.

They only started in 1996, and I should say it's rugby union here. But women's rugby now is firmly part of this club and pride of place as the centrepiece of our table is one of the blade and red kites, that's the team name, many trophies, and also a rugby ball. Rugby here, you could say, is a family affair, which brings me to the glorious table. of women I have around me. You will be hearing from Blayden team players Haley, KP and Rosie, who you're actually all related, aren't you? Yeah, welcome. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

They'll be telling us more later. From the big boss herself, managing director of Vin's World Cup, Sarah Massey. Morning, Sarah. Good morning. Lovely to have you here. I also had a chat with England player Abby Ward, who will be on the pitch playing for her country later. That's after making use of the rugby football union's landmark

maternity policy. More on that. you'll also be hearing what happened when I had my first ever rugby training session. Crouch, fine, set. Ready! No! Yes! I'm witnessing what teamwork is really all about.

It's so much more than a sport. And I did survive. Otherwise I won't be here. So, in celebration of the 10th women's rugby world Cup this year hosted by England with all four home nations having qualified. We are dedicating the next hour to women's rugby. And of course, as usual, I would love to hear from you. Do you play? Are you a fan or do you just want to wish your team well? Get in touch with us in the usual way. The text number is 84844. Email the program by going to our website

or you can WhatsAppers on 0700-100-444 and followers on social media, especially if you want to see how that training session went. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. 84844, that text number. So, as I mentioned, the tournament kicks off tonight, and I'm joined by two people who can get us excited for what's to come over the next month. From Blade and Rugby Club,

I'm joined by the women's team captain KP and a former World Cup winner-turned fitness coach and pundit, Cat Merchant. Kat and KP, welcome. Thank you. A World Cup in England, Cat. The last one was back in 2014. You played in it.

How excited are you? How is this one going to compare? Oh, so the England one was 2010 and we, like, it was amazing. It was incredible. The support was there. We played at the stoop and we managed to fill that. This time around 14 years later, they're filling Twickenham. So the difference is just beyond it.

And all of the media around it, everybody knows it's going on. Like every single person in the country seems to know about this World Cup, which is very different from 2010. It's come so far and I am so here for it. KP, how are you and the rest of the team here feeling about it? Just very excited. I mean, it's the biggest platform for women's rugby in the world and it's here on our doorstep.

You know, it's been made such a big deal just to reiterate everybody knows about it. There's so many events going on around it. There's a real buzz around the whole, the North East, not just in Sunderland. I think everybody's just, yeah, really excited to get a kick started. to follow the tournament and fingers crossed tonight they get the win. Oh yeah, fingers crossed for all of that, right. Lots of people following the tournament,

lots of people across it, but for those who might not be, I think it's really important, Kat, to get the A to Z. So give us a breakdown of the month ahead. How many teams are playing? Where are they from? Give us an overview. Yeah, so you've got 16 teams, we've got four pools, so

the top two will go through to the quarters, then there'll be semi-finals and obviously into the final. The teams that are in contention, I think this is the best World Cup so far in terms of competitive teams that could win it. It has previously always been pretty much England, New Zealand, dominating it for the last few years, the finals. But this year, Canada definitely are in contention for that. They come in as world number two, and they have been putting in some fantastic performances. We've also seen in the build-up to this, the WXV, we've seen Ireland beat New Zealand, the reigning world champion.

Seeing results are so exciting in France, if they get it right, France have the ability and the skill level to go all the way. Can they get the consistency? So there really is probably four teams that any of them could win that final this year. And that's an exciting feature. Yeah, that is exciting. Who are the favourites and who are the underdogs? So favourites have to be England. They have been unbeaten for, I don't even, I can't keep track of how many.

So, yeah, it's theirs to lose. But we've been in this position before 2010. favorites going into that and we lost it to New Zealand. So England haven't beaten New Zealand in a final. In 2014, we face Canada when we won it. So I really as an England, obviously former player and England fan now, I would love to see an England New Zealand final and England absolutely put them to bed to destroy them and just go, right, end of this now, like this is what we do. But being tournament favourites, there is a big pressure on it because there is such a history of

yeah, but England lose to New Zealand in finals. It doesn't matter how many times

they beat them so they have to just almost pretend that doesn't exist and then just focus on

right it's from now and this is what we're at but that said I'd also be interested in seeing Canada

in a final because I think they have played some fantastic rugby. They've beat New Zealand as well they are

they've put England the closest I would say the most under pressure so yeah who knows I think whoever plays

it's going to be great. I always like championing an underdog who have we got in the team in the set up?

Not quite underdog, but France are always like, they're runners up, they're in and amongst it, they make semi-finals, they don't go through to the final, so you'd have to say that they do have a capability but the other one underdog I'd say is possibly Ireland

but they have put in some good results recently so you could root for them. But yeah, there's a number of teams I'll say you can have a lot of I will be rooting for England. Okay, good. And Wales, and Ireland, and Scotland.

KP, let me bring you in. Tonight's game is between England and the USA. It's in Sunderland, as you mentioned, it's down the road. How does it feel to have some of the biggest players in the world competing down the road from your local club? It's inspiring. So even as a 32-year-old that's played rugby for numerous years now, too long, like just for some of my age, it's inspiring.

So the younger girls that are watching that and are coming and get involved and all the activities like the beach when they done the touch rugby the other night. and they'll come to Kiel Square today it just must be absolutely outstanding for them to see that there is a place for them to go that they can start playing grassroots rugby and they can build up through the pathways

and that, you know, inevitably that could play on the biggest stage in the world as well. Who are you going to be supporting? Have you got divided loyalties? No, so tonight I'll be supporting England, of course. You know, I started playing rugby in England. My family now are English, so my friends are English.

I would like to see them all happy, so I'm not a better Scottish person but if you'd ask me that 15 years ago it might have been a different story How are you feeling about the poll game then Scotland Wales first up for you guys? Yeah I'm excited for that. Yeah I think you got it? Yeah I think we could yeah definitely

I think you know especially like mainly in the men's game so far they have always been the underdogs and they perform better than the underdogs so for me I'm going to put a spanner in the works and say that Scotland will be the underdogs for this tournament I mean it's also really special because all four home nations are qualified. And people can attend the games without having to travel too far.

How significant is that? Sarah, let me bring you in on that. Yeah, I mean, what we started from the very beginning, we wanted to make sure that this was in a really accessible tournament for everybody to enjoy. So that's why we've gone around the country, eight different venues. Obviously, kicking off here, so excited to kick off here in Sunderland.

But all the way down to Exeter in the South West, we've got five venues that are operating this weekend. Every single team will be playing across this weekend. So accessibility for us working with those host locations has been really important. Let me introduce you to the voice you've just heard there. That's Sarah Massey, managing director of the women's rugby world cup 2025. She first worked on a rugby world cup, the men's variety 30 years ago, and has since held roles across the Olympic and Commonwealth Games

and oversaw the World Athletics Championship in the US State of Oregon in 2022. So welcome. Thanks for joining us. How are you feeling? Just absolute excitement. Yeah. I mean, we really can't wait to kick off. This is going to be the biggest global celebration of women's rugby that we've ever seen, breaking records for attendances, viewership, engagement.

You know, the teams are all here. We had the welcome ceremonies for the teams last weekend. And to be honest, the energy that they all brought to those welcome ceremonies, the personalities that came out, they are setting the tone and the spirit for this tournament like we've never seen. What's success going to look like? Success is all about viewership, It's all about packing those stands.

It's all about thrilling competition on the field. So, you know, you talked before about some of the close matches that we've had and we've seen. I think one of the things that World Rugby have been trying to do over the last few years in the build-up to this Rugby World Cup is make sure that all of the teams have had a chance to have some international competition through the WXV competition. And we've been supporting those teams who maybe have never played in a Rugby World Cup before. So lots of support in terms of coaching, strength and conditioning. nutrition, bespoke support to teams who've maybe needed it, who, yeah, haven't played before

or maybe you've only played a couple of World Cups before. So, yeah, success is all about what is on the pitch, so thrilling action, but it's also about what we're doing to champion gender equity and change perceptions and shape the game and enrich local communities. How much does it help having a team of five women at the top table with you? What difference does that make when you're fighting for the women's game? Just massive. We started right from the very beginning. our team of five as the leadership team. And what we've done is absolutely intentionally create opportunities for women, not just in our LOC, not just in our workforce,

but across our volunteers. We have an internship program. And we've made sure that our suppliers also, you know, we've been saying to them, what can this tournament do to help create opportunities for your team as being, if they're part of this tournament? And it's something that we're just really proud of. You're going to see role models.

off the pitch in so many different roles, whether that's our match officials across our commentator team. We've got team security advisors with every single one of our teams. 14 of those are women out of the 16. Police commanders have been appointed in each of the different regions.

We are most proud of the fact that at the Alliant Stadium for the final, it'll be an all-female groundskeeper crew first time that we will have done that. And it's just showcasing all of the different roles. It just shows that women, belong in their chosen careers and there are so many careers off the pitch that they can choose and we want to champion and showcase it and make it so visible.

Really powerful stuff. How do the facilities compare to the standards you'd get in a men's World Cup though? From pitches to team bases to healthcare support and various layers, you're fighting for equity, but how do they compare? So we know that we have had, you know, we've got a long way to go to make sure that they're up at the men standards, but we have absolutely made sure that the standards, that the players and the teams and the match officials will have. for this tournament are really higher than they were before from the last one and it's a build right you know we know we're not going to get there straight away but it's a build throughout the tournaments and obviously in the next four years and in in Australia and the four years after that in America but some of the things that tangible things that we've been doing so when the players and the teams have come here over a certain distance been able to travel business class first time that has happened and we've had some really amazing like heartfelt comments from some of the team saying just what it's meant to them to

to be able to have that preparation and not sit in economy and come here really, really prepared and in an environment where they can thrive. Normally the teams would have to share team bases. They'd have to all be saying, well, I'll book the pitch here and you can book it there and we can use the gym and the swimming pool at these times. Every team's now had an individual team base.

We've contracted 61 different facilities for those team bases across the country, which again is a great legacy, because those teams and those clubs will have hosted some of the best women's players in the world. Mental health initiatives, we've got lots of ex-players who we've taken on to be peer support for our players. So whenever they need them, they're there. They've all been trained up, all ex-players,

so they know what it's like to play in a rugby world cup or be part of a team. So they can call on them at any time to just give them support in any way that they might do. So, yeah, we have raised standards in every single way that we possibly can. And we know that those touches and what we're doing, the teams really, really appreciate.

The Guardian did an investigation, I'm sure you're aware of this, looking at the money that players get, and it showed huge disparities. The England players have 39,000 to 48,000 a year contracts, plus they're paid 1,500 per match. But Samoa's players only get a support allowance and are having to fundraise to cover their costs. How do you make the game more sustainable for everyone?

Yeah, and that's one of the things that World Rugby is absolutely what we are trying to do the entire time, because having a long-term sustainable sport is what we need and it has to be across the world, not just with a few of the nations. So we have the chance once, and that's why what we're doing is so important is we have a chance once every four years

to really have maximum visibility and awareness for the players and for the sport. And then through that, it will encourage more investment. It will encourage more partners to come on board. It will encourage more of those unions to be investing really, heavily in the women's game. Samoa's rugby team tells us they're hoping to increase their corporate sponsorship.

And one of your first jobs in rugby was looking after sponsors. Are you happy with the level of investment? Yeah. I mean, for this tournament, we have, and it just shows, we have shown, and brought on more partners than ever before. We've got 24 partners that we're working with. We've raised all our revenue, meet all our revenue targets. But I think the really important thing and the key thing is,

these are sponsors who haven't just put money in to get the recognition on TV, get visibility. They've absolutely invested in their activations. And also we've managed to get on board some consumer brands. So you'll see Kettle Kripps, Intuition, Dove, Volvic. And they've all put the tournament logo and advertising the logo on pack. You just will have seen the new O2 TV ad launch. Incredible that that is on TV. So the partners have really got behind it. And it's because they will do that. Everybody will then see and they will report on the ROI that they've received by being a key sponsor of this tournament and that will only then make sure that that is then going to go down into the domestic leagues and across the world. So it's all about

us raising the visibility for that to be then taken down into the domestic game. I started by asking what success would look like and you said ticket sales and you've been consistently surprised by the level of uptake on ticket sales. Kat, you might have the most recent figures on these. I don't know. I've got across the 32 match tournament, 375,000 of the 400,000 of the 400 170,000 tickets have already been sold, is that right? Three times the number sold at the last World Cup in New Zealand. Should you have been more ambitious, both in terms of the size of the venues you went for, and also the amount you charge for tickets?

I mean, it's hard, isn't it? You know, when we set these prices and when we set and chose the venues, this was two years ago, more than two years ago, this has all been in the planning for, since the last Rugby World Cup. So we backed ourselves. We were really ambitious. We've gone to some big venues, hence why we're here in. Sunderland in a venue that maybe has been quite a surprise for people for us to start this

tournament up in the North East, but we absolutely wanted to grow women's rugby up here. So that's why we've started here. And we've had that combination of some traditional rugby venues, some community venues. We think we've got it just right, if I'm honest. We've sold over 375,000 tickets, as you quite rightly said. That was the number that we announced on Tuesday. And all we have seen in the last literally three or four days is those two. ticket sales just tick over the entire time.

The coverage that we've had, wall-to-wall coverage, we can't keep up with how much coverage we've had, means that we're growing those ticket sales the whole time. So we have no doubt that that is going to be well above those numbers. Sell out. Well, we know we've obviously sold out for Twickenham. We know that. The England pool matches.

I mean, you can't buy a ticket online at the moment for any of those matches. Many other matches, even across this opening weekend, are near capacity. So it's like the oasis concerts. I think that you absolutely have nailed it because full stadiums is what you want that's the as players you absolutely love it and just hearing you talk about things

like players getting business flights and I remember we had at World Cup we had four days between games we'd arrive early you know you'd be jet lagged you'd have all these things going and so the quality of rugby you were going to ever put out is never going to be as good as what they can

and this really ties into like just giving these incredible women the respect they deserve of right we're going to get you there you're going to be rested you're going to have the best facilities we can give you business cars i'm not going to lie i'm very jealous i did many an economy flight to new zealand um so yeah like i think it's great i think that phrase the respect they deserve it's really important sarah thank you for now in a moment we'll be speaking to some of the women who make up the blade and women's rugby team but last night they invited me into their training session here's how i got on ready ready

Right, okay. Really good standing. We're just going to have three now, three mistakes or so. So we're going to start with three squats on VB, and then we're going to go to the tri-line and back as a team, right? One, two, three. As a line! I'm with Chris, who's the coach of the women's team here at Bladen.

I'm a total novice, Chris. It's absolutely fine. I might be the hardest person you've ever tried to teach rugby too. That's absolutely fine. We'll get some drills started straight away. We'll start with a basic passing drill. I love how confident everyone is that I'm going to be able to do this. Rugby is a game for everyone, shape, sizes, ages.

It's the best sport in the world, so we'll show you what's all about. I like the sound of that. Come on a 2V1s, we're going to have a 30 second plank on Anita. Just me. Everyone's going to follow, yeah? Are you ready, girls? Yeah. On our arms, on our elbows?

Okay, let's go. When I said I was going to train with the Blade and Women's Rugby Club, I thought, you know, I'd just like dip in and out. I took a proper workout. Rebecca, what's so good about women's rugby? I think a lot of it is the empowerment that you get from it. I appreciate my body more for what it can do rather than what I look like. If you're fast, you can be on the wing.

If you're strong, you can be in the forwards. And it gives us a goal to be better within myself, for myself, but also for my teammates. I've got my own family here, but everyone else is my family as well, if that makes sense. sisterhood here. Yeah, is it? We've all got each of us back. Had anyone played rugby before they came to Bladen? So my first day, we did something called Tackle Star, which is basically like a tackle hit a bag, tackle hit a bag, and it was absolutely awful, but everyone just cheering me on really made me want to come back, so then just kept going. Did you know you have this strength in you before you started playing rugby? I'm naturally a bit bigger anyway, and I think

other sports I played, I didn't necessarily sit in as a natural fit, so rugby was the first sport where I turned up and I was like, I like being here, it feels right being here. How do you feel in your body when you're playing rugby? Yeah, really good. I actually took a year off rugby there and I could feel sort of negative thoughts about my body come back. I think the same, like I've played other sports throughout my life. I played football like most recently. But I was like watched a few rugby games and thought if I'd start that as a child, I think I'd be good at it. And I just thought, why don't I start now? Like, you're never too old. I think it's really important to show other mothers that they can actually take up a sport.

and be taking seriously in a sport as well. And a good thing about that is, like, just giving an example, for Saturday on the game, one of the players mentioning that she had childcare issues, and we just say, bring them along. There'll be someone on the sideline. One of the subs will look after them, just come along. What got you playing? The boys at school, they had a team, there was no girls' team,

no other girls interested, and I thought, I'm going. And I went, and they said as long as my mum and dad said it was okay. I could carry on, turned into a community team, and I ended up training with a West End men. And did other women or young girls start playing because they saw you playing? It's definitely got a few of the girls on the sidelines involved because they're kind of like, oh, girls play too. What would you say to someone who might feel intimidated by the game?

Any young woman who thinks, it looks good, but I think I'd be scared. Do it. Everybody's lovely. Just try it. How excited are you that the Women's World Cup is on your doorstep? I couldn't believe that it was going to be here. We don't have any professional women's teams here in the Premier League. So to be actually recognised as somewhere that can contribute to the rugby world is amazing. I can't even begin to imagine what the crowd's going to be like in the stadium of light. I mean, are you fizzing already?

Yeah, I am so excited. I've been, I booked my tickets the minute that they came out. Like, literally, I was like, I'm going to be there no matter what. Am I going to get the bug? Yeah. Yeah, you'll be back next to you. You're certain. I mean, this is a very...

You're all very sure that. You come for one and you'll be back on with it. Crouch! Five! Set. We've got a scum machine at the bottom corner of the pitch so we're going to go and take turn to the scum pack of eight and he's going to get a turn of playing scum half because you're not safe for her to try scrums just yet.

Keep it on, keep it on and hold, stand up. What am I doing, Paul? So basically when they come together on the machine there's a hand on the top for the hookah who's the person in the middle. All right so I've just got to get it to Haley in the middle. Crouch! Bind! Set!

Ready! No! I'm witnessing what teamwork is really all about. It's so much more than a sport. Wow. And if you want to see me in action, head to the Woman's Hour Instagram page. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

Well, joining me now are three of the players of the women's team. The Bladen Red Kites, as they're known, KP, Haley and Rosie. They're not only teammates, but family members. Welcome all of you. Thank you. Was I wrong? It was great fun.

Yeah. I survived. You were really good. You really did put me through my paces as well. Yeah. You were impressive. We want to recruit you now. I'm in.

Haley, as I mentioned, you're all related. It really is a family affair. So explain how many of you come from one family. What's the relationship here? So I'm in a relationship with KP, and then I've got five daughters who play on the team. The youngest one's just come up because she's already 17. so there's seven of us play on the first team

and then my sister captain's the second team and then our little boy plays here and so does my nephew so there's 10 of what all together play here who was the person who got everyone involved who's the was it UKP? No we didn't know each of that so we met through Blading So Auntie Rachel started it didn't you? Yeah so the inner warrior I came to Blading about five years ago

so it's like really like in our area to begin and now like grassroots rugby and they came and I was massively overweight at the time and my sister was like come you'll enjoy it and I was like yeah I'll give it a go and then the kids came with us and we're just from that moment we just absolutely loved it what was it about it what gave you the bug I think we're all so competitive so that's that was what brung were in and it was also the idea for me that we could all play it together even though what age differences were so different there's not many sports where you could go, I can go and play with my daughter or my sister. So what all came and were like getting fit together, that was real incentive to go, let's go

and get fit, because that was, what was it about it first? Getting fit. And then they started playing first. And I watched and I was like, oh my goodness, I've got to do this. I just loved running into. You were jealous, I was jealous. The energy that you all give off when I watched you yesterday, it's really hard. It's infectious. I was itching to get involved. KP., what brought you to the sport? So I'd swam most of my life. That was kind of my sport when I was younger. And then when I came to university,

I wanted to try something different. I think swimming, like, it was such a lonely sport that I wanted to try something that I could be surrounded by other people and I could depend on them and they could depend on me. So a lot of my family had played rugby in the borders. So I thought I would just give it a try. And I just signed up at the Freshers Fair,

went along and absolutely loved it. And I've never looked back. like it's just completely changed my life the communities that I've been involved in the opportunities that I've had such as sitting here right now met the love of your life met the love of my life yes

Rosie the whole family plays I mean there must be downsides to that yeah there is sometimes like if one of us gets tackled off a family member you're going to go on and on about it like my mum did when Grace tackled her me yeah you

dish the dirt but like Even if you hand each other off or anything like that, it is like it is going to be spoke about in the family group chat later on. It's going to be words. The hope of this World Cup is that more women take up rugby. Just how healthy is the Blade and Red Kites team? How many members have you got? So we've got 60 women signed up.

So we've produced two teams. We've got a first team and a second team, both playing, you know, in respectable leagues as well. At training, we get absolutely fantastic numbers. I think this is one of the first teams that I've ever seen that we were disappointed if we have about 24 girls at training. We see that as a failure,

so we want to build more and more and more. So everybody that comes into the team, we try and nurture them. It's all about retaining those players because you get a lot of girls that kind of fluctuate in and out of sport, but if we can show them what we're all about and kind of the community

and the sense of belonging that we all feel, then we seem to retain them really well. But that's just kind of a culture that we've built up, you know, through four or five years but it's just Bladen is a really special rugby club we've got a really special team

and we're all just you know like we are family but the whole team is our family Well it's the first thing you said to me when I arrived and you said you're part of our family now I felt it. It's really special energy you've got here.

You're one of us and it's something extraordinary watching women together doing that is just a real sense of confidence and comfort and strength and power but something some women might be worried about is the safety element.

How much of a concern is that for you and your team? Well, I've just come back from a broken ankle, so it's not really good to plug on the radio, but any sport you play... But that wasn't rugby? No, it was rugby, but any sport you play, there's going to be an element of risk. And to be honest, there's not...

It sounds ridiculous, but there's not really that many injuries if you play it properly. Obviously, accidents can happen, and that was just an accident that happened. so I played my first game back last week after four months because I've worked really hard and I'm not scared to do it again and I think after a break you would think

oh my God she's going to be scared but actually I'm not because I feel safer with my team if you get what I mean so there is an element of like risk but that could be any sport in the world it must be a question that you have to answer over and over again you know that women involved in such a sort of a contact sport like rugby yeah and a lot of the injuries to be honest they might not even come from contact

I've got a bit of a fun example So I had multiple surgeries from playing rugby And like you know It's part and parcel I played international You know I've done two sevens World Cups Two 15s World Cup

I've done a lot of volume of playing Having retired I went and played village cricket Very very very local village cricket And in all my years Never pulled a muscle I tore my hamstring off the tendon playing village cricket

And had a surgery So it really But the thing what I mean is like You know you don't know You could just run of us and do something you could do but I think physical activity and the stronger you are whether man woman doesn't matter as strong you are less likely things like that happen and you get yourself conditioned and it's good but yeah it would be silly to say injuries don't happen they

do but the health benefits you get from it from being fit healthy active strong they're going to help you in your later years of life so yeah you might have a couple of broken ankles now but later in life you're going to be so thankful when you're strong you're independent you don't need people helping you because you can do it for yourself rosy how important is it for you how excited are you for the world cup being down the road i'm excited to look at the role models that are there like all of the english players it's something to inspire it a beat uh and you all off to the game yeah tonight the whole family yeah majority majority there's too many of where probably would fill the full stadium you can't fit in the car will he'll be hearing more from haley kp and rosy at

later on. Now, winning a World Cup on home soil is the ultimate dream for a professional athlete. None more so than for my next guest, the England rugby player Abbey Ward. Abbey has won several Six Nations titles, but despite being in two World Cup finals, has not lifted that most coveted of trophies. Her World Cup winning dream became all the more challenging when Abby became pregnant soon after England agonizingly lost in the last World Cup final. Going on to have her baby Halley in July 2023,

Abby was the first player to benefit from the rugby football union's landmark maternity policy for players. And tonight, she will walk out at the Stadium of Light to begin her dream of becoming World Cup champion. The Cumbrian-born player trained up here in the Northeast for some of her career. She joined me recently and told me how she is feeling competing in a World Cup on home soil. It is really special to be playing in the Northeast. and it's something that I'm really proud to be able to showcase women's rugby across England. It's almost like a road show and to take it to areas where maybe people, spectators, fans don't often get the chance to go and watch rugby. To have games in places like Sunderland or down in Exeter or in Manchester, Brighton is phenomenal.

And yeah, just excited to show what the Red Roses are about. And it will no doubt inspire a generation. But I wonder where your journey with rugby started. What inspired you? When did the love begin? My introduction was touch rugby, and I loved that. And I actually played my first game and then quit. And I remember the coach, Alan Gray, seeing my mum in town and saying, oh, you know, I've not seen Abby at training.

You know, why hasn't she been down? And my mum said, oh, you know what? I don't think that's a sport for Abby. I think, you know, she gave it a go. It was a bit too rough for her, which now I look back and think how ironic. and obviously a couple of years later I gave it another go. Absolutely loved it. And the thing that I love about rugby is that one to 15,

there are so many different roles. There's so many different skills and attributes needed from, you know, the strength and the momentum that, you know, props might need to the agility and the speed of the wingers and the fallbacks and everything in between. There's a place for everyone. There's a skill set for everyone. And no one person can succeed without,

everyone else doing their job and that's what I love. Now, you took a decision, Abby, to have a baby a couple of years ago, something most players either stop their careers for or they choose to do after retirement, but you chose to do it in the middle of your career. Why? Yeah. Why? I always knew that I wanted a family.

I always knew that, you know, I'm incredibly ambitious, incredibly competitive. I love playing rugby. I want to play at the top level to play against the best. And I wanted to do both. maybe I'm a bit greedy because I wanted to do both and I really struggled for so long why players couldn't or didn't feel like they were able to

behind the scenes there was a lot of work going on to introduce a maternity policy which would mean for the first time that players would be supported they would have provisions in place so that they could go and have babies and come back to play it you were termed the guinea pig when it came to the RFU's maternity policy the policy offers players on central England contracts 26 weeks on

full pay whilst on maternity leave and there's a level of ongoing support for the mother or primary caregiver on their return to the squad for one year. So that sounds like a really solid policy. Yeah, absolutely. But like you said, you know, a great policy in theory, but it was also like, okay, we don't know how it's going to work in actual practice because we hadn't had any players go through it. So like you said, to an extent, I was quite happy to say, I'll be the guinea pig. Let's see how it works. We knew it was going to be a working document. We knew he'd have to make changes, but great to, you know, feel like there was stuff in place. I was able to train throughout pregnancy at Bristol Bears, which is my club, had the support there,

which was incredible from S&C coaches, from nutritionists, physios, doctors, and coaches and teammates. I think that was really important. They were able to integrate me throughout training. For pretty much my whole pregnancy, like, no, I couldn't do contact, I couldn't do various pieces. but I could still stay fit, I could still stay strong, I could still be amongst the team, which was huge, not just for physically feeling good, but mentally feeling good,

feeling like I could contribute to the team because it's hard when you're out. You're not on the pitch, you're not being able to do your part. So to feel like I was still part of the team was amazing. And yeah, so had Halle in July. And then went back to training. Two weeks. Two weeks after.

Now, of course, that was your decision with the advice of your doctors. The NHS say usually it's a good idea to wait until after your six-week postnatal check before you start any high-impact exercise such as aerobics or running. But there was a specific reason why you wanted to get back, right? Yeah, for me, I set that target that I wanted to be fit for the first game of the new season, which was 17 weeks post-birth. And again, you know, we make reference to I only took two weeks off, But it wasn't, I must say, it wasn't two weeks off

and then straight back into rugby. It was a slow build-up. There was lots of preparation that had gone into it. It was step by step based on how I was feeling, based on physical markers that I had to meet to be able to progress. But, you know, luckily, everything went as planned. I was aware that maybe we'd have to change the plan, you know, that I might have to slow things down,

that actually I might not want to return. You know, it's all well and good. saying pre-Hally that, you know, I want to be back in 17 weeks, but I knew that everything changes and I might not want to. But with the support, I was able to tick off the bits and pieces physically that I needed to enable me to return, yeah, 17 weeks. We've got many examples of female athletes going back to elite sport after having babies, Jessica Ennis Hill, Serena Williams.

But rugby being such a high-impact sport, is it even more challenging to get your body back to that level? Yeah, I think it has its unique challenges. And I think that was one of the thing. I wasn't, obviously, not the first person to have a baby and return to sport. Like you've just listed so many great examples. The difficulty we had in rugby is that there wasn't so many that returned to a contact sport. So a lot of the time it was about we don't have loads of research to fall back on.

So we're just going to have to write our own. What was amazing is the lead physiotherapist Kate Tyler at the time, who was at Bristol Bears, is now at England. and she's actually just completed her master's on the return, on my return, and that type of research, that type of information can now be shared to the next people coming through. But what did you say to people who might have felt that it was wrong that you pushed your body so hard and that maybe you should have given yourself more time to recover? Did you come across any of those opinions as well? There's always going to be opinions, absolutely.

I think a lot of moms feel like there's a lot of judgment out there, you know, that whatever you're doing, whether it's about mode of birth, whether it's about breastfeeding, whether it's about when your child goes to nursery. And for me, again, like sport and returning to rugby and training through pregnancy was another thing that, yes, there was always going to be judgment. For me, it was about creating this visibility so people could understand it because there hasn't been the visibility previously. And now what's great is you see athletes, you see women, you see mum sharing their story. story. My message has always been that everyone's an individual and you've got to do what is right for you and your baby. I wouldn't advise people to do what I did if they've never done it.

But for me, I wasn't necessarily changing anything because that's what my body was used to. That's what it was capable of. And I think women are extremely capable. And I think previously maybe the message has been about, you know, not doing so much whereas we can. And for me, particularly like an active pregnancy can only be a good thing, not just for your body, for your baby, but mentally it's huge. And throw into that the aspect of a team sport, your mental well-being, you're being, you know, sociable, having that support around you.

It's just incredible for me. And I think a lot of other people that have messaged me, moms, and people that have returned to sport have had the same message. What more change do you want to see in this area of maternity? Because currently this policy is only open to. contracted England players. We weren't the first. We've learnt from the likes of New Zealand.

We've learnt from other sports, whether that's cricket and football. So can we share that information with Wales, Ireland, netball, whatever it is, so that we can all progress? And then the next step would be the maternity policy was great. And then we almost got to that one-year period. And it was like, oh, it's finished now. What next?

And maybe naively, we didn't really. think about thereafter. So now it's about creating a policy that's fit for purpose for working mum's. You've earned 71 caps for your country and seen a lot of change in that time. Do you think this tournament will be a turning point for women's rugby in England? I really do think it will. And I've seen a lot of change in the past 10 years in rugby. And we say it every year that we're on this wave of momentum of changing in women's sport. and I think it really gathered momentum when we saw the Euros in England and the work that the lionesses did.

But I feel like this summer as well, it's just, it's been so exciting. The summer of sport of, you know, the cricket, the athletics, the football. And I do think there's this big culture shift. Like sport is now so entwined with fashion, with music, and it just seems to be at the heart of like pop culture. the audiences are growing and growing and like I said to host the World Cup

here at home to have the backing of everybody is huge and for us there'll be two things that we'll be looking for to really bring success from this World Cup

obviously it's the on-field achievements but secondly it's that legacy piece the impact that we can have and I think we can have huge impact but yeah we won't really see that until post the tournament

we started by hearing your introduction being through touch rugby and now you have been the pioneer you are the generation that were the first to get the professional contracts and now as you've mentioned women in sport you are part of pop culture

what's that like from the inside being part of that wave it can be tiring at times to be honest because a lot of the time you're just battling against traditions or all these barriers these glass ceilings

and my message has always been just go and smash them. If there's not a way of doing something, find a way of doing something. And, you know, it was tough when we battled for the introduction of professional contracts, which came in 2017. Then they got taken away for a year, you know, and then we had to fight to get them reintroduced and we've had to fight to, you know, see uplift of provisions, of resources, of standards on pitch, off pitch, in pay. match fees in all sorts

but you know nothing worth doing that's easy you know like just go and go and battle for it and everything that we've fought for for the past 10 years we might not always see the benefits of hopefully be your daughter's generation

but I'll be so proud to see that happen yeah and it'll have definitely been worth you know all those tough conversations it's quite amazing I'm very proud to be in that cohort that saw the change from amateur to professionalism and yeah I will continue supporting and helping and advocating for continued change. More power to you, Abbey.

Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me. That was great. And best of luck. Thank you. Now, as I've mentioned, all four home nations have qualified for the women's rugby world cup. Given England are hosting, it means fans from across Scotland, Wales, Ireland, who with Northern Ireland and, of course, England are within touching distance

of one of the stadium's hosting four fans got in touch with Women's Hour and wanted to send a good luck message to their team. Here they are. Ireland. I'm Ilva and I'm a huge Ireland fan to the amazing Irish women's team. You inspire us with every tackle,

every try and every ounce of heart you put out on the pitch. You're not just playing a game, you're carrying the dreams of a nation with you. So go out there and give it everything. And remember, we dream in green. It's Charlotte here. Just want to wish Wales women all the very best for the upcoming Rugby World Cup.

May all your hard work pay off. Best of luck, the whole of Wales is behind you. Poor bloc genot, come on, Camry! Betty here, I'm a huge Scotland fan and I would just like to wish the girls the biggest of luck for the tournament the whole of Scotland is behind you. Get stuck in, heads down, let's get on with it

and I'll see you as in Salford for the opening game. Come on, Scotland! Red Rose's fan Kate here from Weymouth and Portland Ladies Rugby. We just want to wish the team the best of luck. You've got an absolutely incredible squad with some phenomenal talent. I can't wait to see you lift that trophy over at Tricentum. I will see you there. Thank you to Alva, Charlotte, Betty and Kate. And you are getting in touch with your messages.

I'm going to read a few of them out here. Just on the way north from Cheshire to Sunderland for the opening match at the Stadium of Light. I've always loved rugby, especially England rugby, but thoroughly engaged with women's rugby in the last five years. Heartbreak in 2022 when we lost the final go red roses. We'll be there for the final two. And that's from David, Jane, George and Eddie. Simon says, when my daughter was born, more than anything, I hoped she would be interested in sport or exercise and be body confident.

Some 21 years later, I could not be more proud to see her running out for her second blue representing Cambridge University, a dazzling, strong, amazing, skilled player. Thank you rugby for all you've given to my girl, our family, and the tears of joy and pride that flow regularly. Oh, I'm welling up. And that's from a super proud dad. Oh, lovely. Thank you, Simon.

And Rachel wrote in to say, some friends and I tried to start a women's rugby team in our college back in 1998. Only four girls signed up. We got no support or encouragement from teachers and staff. And the boys that played rugby just made a lot of jokes about which positions women could play and in a rugby team. So glad women are now recognised and valued rugby players.

It's a fantastic sport which welcomes all shapes and sizes and genuinely has a place for everyone. Hurrah! Hurrah, indeed. When I read some of these messages out, I think, 1998. That was only two minutes ago. Now, earlier on, England player, Abby Ward, spoke about the broad spectrum of women who can play rugby

from number one to 15. Such different skills are required. And from that, such different body shapes. only needed but celebrated. Well, rugby is considered one of the most inclusive sports for women and because of it, it can make women feel more confident and make them see what they're capable of. In fact, I witnessed it when I trained here at the Bladen Rugby Club last night. Still with me to discuss this are Kat, Haley, K.P. Rosie and Sarah. So Kat, many people say rugby is the most accessible sport. It's not about size. There's a role for you. Is that true? Absolutely. It's

about what your body can do. And that gives people great confidence. It doesn't matter if you're the shortest person on the pitch, tallest, like if you're a bigger girl, if you're slight, doesn't matter, there will be a role with you. Because one of the things that I worried about, I used to be very skinny coming in to interrupting. I was like, oh, the big girl's going to hurt me.

I'm not going to be strong enough. And you go along and actually everybody, it doesn't matter. Like, everybody's just a team. They're like, brilliant, you're rapid, get on the wing. And, like, everyone has their role. and I absolutely love that. You are a huge advocate for women's health. In fact, KP, Haley, who said it?

Who said it about Cat's Arms? Yeah, it was me. Whilst we were listening. What were you saying? I was just appreciating how great her arms look. Yeah, you have got incredible. I really want them. I'm sure she can give us all some tips later.

Because you're a personal trainer now, and in your Instagram you celebrate being fit and strong. But it has to be said it does come with knockbacks. you get a huge amount of online abuse. Most of which you either ignore, or you're very good with your comebacks. Does it impact you, though? It can do.

The first time I honestly nearly quit social media because I opened up and I was giving tips on actually how to grow your arms. And someone had stitched it and was retching and saying, why would any woman want to look like a man? And I was like, right, I say, I can't do this. I'm not putting myself out there anymore. I'm not going to do it.

And Mike, my partner, he just went, no, do you know what? repost it like own this like go for it and gave me the confidence to actually just go right fine and now I do probably daily like I'll have a couple of messages saying either I look like a man or that women shouldn't look like this women do it as well though you get women just go in you should choose a different photo your arms look big in that one it's off putting like where does that call from why does that why does that happen I think people get scared of what women should look like we should be small and to be honest when I retired from rugby

I tried to get rid of my muscle because I didn't feel feminine. I felt like, oh, no, you're supposed to be curvy or you're supposed to be petite. You're not supposed to look strong. And actually then I'm so glad I found lifting and it gave me so much confidence now. And I walk around and I celebrate the fact. I won't wear a dress unless it shows off my biceps.

You know, it's like I'm picking it on purpose. And like when I, you know, I think now rugby has shown this, these incredible women are walking around from all the different nations and all you're looking at is, one, obviously, what they could do on the pitch, but you're like, oh, my God, her quads are amazing. Like, it's, and now I think that, you know, in the business that I do, I do fitness coaching, and I used to get women who wanted to do our programme, and their goals were very much, I want to drop two dress sizes.

And it was more about, I want to lose fat. And there is nothing wrong with that goal. If that's what somebody wants, this is about women having the choice to do what they want. But now I'm getting a lot more people ringing up and women saying, I just want to be strong. I want to be able to play with my kids to join in with them. I want to be really independent. And the goal, the shift has really happened.

And I, for one, every time I hear a woman talk about it and the confidence to take up space, for example, like I get people do the program who have really high-powered jobs and they've maybe been not as confident and they just stand taller because they're strong and they feel mentally that that makes them stronger because physically they're strong as well. And yeah, I absolutely love it.

Haley, I'm going to bring you in here. How has playing rugby made you feel about your body? Well, when I first joined I was overweight and I was I yo-yoed with fat diets and stuff and I was obsessed with losing weight and then I'd lose weight

and I'd put it back on and did it then I came to rugby and my goal turned from losing weight and being skinny to I wanted to be strong and I wanted to be confident in my body because then if I'm like that then my girls could be like that

so then they say them I'm dead strong and then they want to be strong I've got really shy The twins, my twins are really shy. Or there were, like two little sticking sex. They came to rugby and the muscle mass now. And they're strong, that confident, they're out there. All the girls are so I think I led the way for them to be confident.

You said earlier in the programme that mothers should feel that rugby is for them. But you're not just a mother, aren't you? Oh no, I'm not just a mother. I forgot earlier on I'm a nana. So I've got two little grandbens. So their mom, she was also overweight. she's not she's she didn't meet her yesterday she's she was overweight after having the kids and if you're seeing her now her legs oh my goodness she's got the the coughs of dreams everyone

looks at molly's coughs and they're like they're incredible rosy how important is this for you it just means everything like i would much rather be strong than skinny and i think that's what everyone in rugby aspires to be it's much more desirable than anything else and you have a really important role as well you train the under 10 Yeah, so I've coached them since the what under sixes And watching them progress has been great And there's a girl on the team Hattie And she is what every young girl should aspire to be

She stands out in the team doesn't she She runs through all the boys Like no one can tackle her She's just amazing She's the tallest, she's the strongest For now And she looks up to Rosie in a way She's asked her mum if she could count the

Count the Sleeps to be on Rosie's team because she sees Rosie as a hero and I think that's absolutely lovely that little girls are looking up to even us at grassroots level and gone that's my hero. And now what we're getting with the World Cup is that amplified for all of us.

I mean, this must just be a thrilling day. I mean, how much work has gone into and the thought process about what the impact will be on the next generation of young women and girls? It's been a goal right from the very beginning because we know that we have got this platform and, you know, the amount of coverage,

as we've said, going to be on the BBC, which is incredible. You can see it across so many different programs, radios, already. And right from the very beginning, you know, we need to make sure that we're using that platform, that there's a nationwide conversation about this. We have a sort of our mantra within what we're doing is all about this. It's like where we belong. You know, we believe three things.

Girls belong in sport. We want to see the numbers of girls dropping out of sport decreasing because we know that so many do. Secondly, we have a whole mantra around women belong in their chosen career. as I mentioned before, making sure that this is a platform for people to see other role models off the pitch as well. And we believe that women and girls belong in rugby. So really kind of smashing down those perceptions and those stereotypes about it. And all of this is built on that simple, really simple truth. You know, if you can't see it, you don't believe that you can be it.

And so from what we're doing, so many people will see it. We've intentionally made sure that you can see it. And therefore, you know, we want women and girls everywhere, all these inspiring stories. We want women and girls to know they can be anything, they can do anything and they can belong anywhere. Absolutely. And we can't talk about body image and rugby without name-checking Elona Marr. She's the American rugby player and viral Instagram star who's, I mean, she's done a huge amount for the world of rugby, hasn't she, in body positive? Oh, absolutely. And she just champions women everywhere and for what their amazing bodies can do. And she is very keen on that message. And I wish when I was growing up that I did see these strong women instead of, you know,

think there's a lot of people our era that, you know, all the papers were about, oh, isn't this woman overweight? And she's like a size 12 or something. And there's all like bikini bodies, who's got the best one? Now it's like, who's smashing it? Who's getting an Olympic medal? Who's winning the World Cup? Yes, this is what we need. Her Instagram is incredible because you've got pictures of her like doing a mega tackle and she's on the red carpet in some amazing dress in that fantastic body. And also being strong has its benefits, doesn't it? KP. Can you just tell us what happened to you on holiday? Oh, God.

Yeah, so when we're on holiday, one of the entertainers in Egypt decided to make a statement that women were weak and they weren't as strong as men. So then I just took it upon myself to give him an arm wrestle and beat him at the left and the right

just so there was no discrepancies with that as well. So I think I humiliated him a bit but obviously it was a bold statement for him to make and sometimes they just have to be put in their place a little bit. Oh, amazing.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this last hour. I'm so excited for this tournament. Very quickly, who's going to be the hero of the nation in your view? Kat. Who will we be talking about at the end of this tournament? The country? England. England. Can we name a player? Yeah, so Meg Jones, she's in the centre's vice captain, incredible personality, but also fantastic player. Well, it's been brilliant. Thanks to all of you. Thank you to my guest, Cat Merchant. Go on, quick, go B. Yeah, just obviously before we wrap it up. I just wanted to plug our TikTok. It's Meet the Rockers. We do a lot of inspirational posts and everything. So if people want to follow that, it's all about body positivity

and empower women. Brilliant. And they're the Bladen Red Kites as well. Thank you to Kat. Thank you, KP, Haley, Rosie at Bladen Rugby Club, Sarah Massey. Thank you for joining us today ahead of what's going to be an incredible month. And thanks to all of you from Bladen Rugby Club in Gateshead. goodbye. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi guys, this is Rylan and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds.

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