Woman's Hour - Woman's Hour turns 75 today

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Our specially commissioned poll to celebrate Woman’s Hour at 75 looks at women and equality in the UK today. It finds the place that women feel the most unequal is in the home, at work in terms of pay and benefits and in terms of safety due to their experience of sexual exploitation and abuse. Emma Barnett talks about the issues raised with our panel including the author Jeanette Winterson, the commentator Inaya Floarin Iman and the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project Laura Bates.Joan Diana Gayford nee Wilson joined the BBC as a talks producer shortly after the Second World War. Not long after a new programme hit the airwaves. 75 years later, to the day, you can hear Emma talking to Diana Gayford who was working on Woman’s Hour when it first came to air at 2pm on 7th October 1946.Brenda Hale, Baroness Hale of Richmond joins Emma on this anniversary programme. She is a former judge who served as the first female president of the Supreme Court. In 2019 she made headlines announcing the Supreme Court’s judgement that the prorogation of Parliament was ‘unlawful, void and of no effect’. She has written a book, Spider Woman, that spans her life and work.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme, which is the 75th anniversary of BBC Woman's Hour, a programme I was very proud to join in January. And like every other day we are on air, remember we broadcast six days a week, I want to share the microphone with you and do what's baked into this programme's DNA. join in January and like every other day we are on air, remember we broadcast six days a week, I want to share the microphone with you and do what's baked into this programme's DNA, giving women a platform and hearing your voice loud and clear. To mark 75 years of this programme,

we have commissioned a poll to try and capture a snapshot of how equal women feel in their lives today. I'll be sharing the findings with you shortly. But at the heart of the results is a whopping great chasm between the equality the law says we should have as women and the reality of some women's lives. Of course, we have made so much progress in the past seven decades, but some barriers and problems remain stubbornly in place. My questions for you today, then, are these. How have your lives differed to that of your mothers, to your grandmothers? And what change or changes would you most like to see

over the next 75 years? You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Many of you already doing so, wishing us a happy birthday with lots of pictures of cake and all sorts of things coming in. Those are also very welcome. Please keep them coming on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. And speaking of that chasm between the law and reality, who better to have on today's programme than the first woman to be made president of the UK Supreme Court, Baroness Brenda Hale. We have also managed to track down a producer

who worked on the very first Woman's Hour, 104-year-old Diana Gayford, who only very recently received a card from Her Majesty the Queen, who you may remember at the start of this year sent Woman's Hour an anniversary message in which Her Majesty sent her best wishes to you, our listeners, and she went on to say, during this time, you have witnessed and played a significant part

in the evolving role of women across society, both here and around the world. In this notable anniversary year, I wish you continued success in your important work as a friend, guide and advocate to women. Elizabeth R. Well, 75 years young, happy birthday to us. Thank you so much for sharing it with us live today.

And when it comes to equality, do tell me, how is your life different to your mother's, your grandmother's? In what ways is it the same? Perhaps you're happy about those things or you're still striving for something else in your own life. And what change or changes would you most like to see over the next 75 years? Get in touch 84844 or at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. But let's get back to where it all began. Last week I had the very great pleasure of sitting down with Diana Gayford. During the war, she was responsible for education in the Auxiliary Territorial Service,

but it was afterwards when she joined the BBC as a talks producer that she found herself working on producing discussions for a brand-new programme, Woman's Hour. Yes, unbelievably, Diana, who is now 104 years old and in fine health, was there, working as a producer on the very first Woman's Hour, which went out at two o'clock on the 7th of October, 1946. And even more unbelievably, depending on your view at that time,

Woman's Hour, the very first one, was hosted by a man. Diana invited me to her flat for a much-needed cup of tea and many biscuits, and I started by asking her about her role during the war. I was an officer at the war office in the ATS, dealing with education for the ATS girls. I had a very, very interesting job in the war. I was very, very lucky. Towards the end of the war, my was to try and get help the women

to get ready for civilian life and that is when one realised that either they wanted help with the domestic things because they had married and never had any training in cookery or household things, or they wanted to know where and how they could train and what jobs there were to train for. So you were meeting women at a real fork in their life, but also how women were planning their lives in Britain post-war. That's right. And one of my most tricky jobs was, although I was a reasonably senior officer myself, the equivalent of a major,

I had to deal with the sort of equivalent female of brigadiers and people who were much older than me and much higher rank and I had to try and explain to them that maybe they'd come into the services and got fairly big jobs but if they wanted an equivalent job in civilian life, they'd got to train for something. And of course, some of them didn't like it. I think I ruffled quite a few feathers. Well, you sound incredibly well trained to go and help launch a programme called Woman's Hour. Well, I was very excited to be on. And then I was very upset that we were really only had to deal with domestic matters at first. And the first presenter, and for people who don't know this, this is their jaw drop moment, was a man. Yes. Which I thought was rather odd, but I'd not been

at the BBC for very long. So I kept my mouth shut a bit on that one. Alan Ivermey? Ivermey, yes. Ivermey, you tell me. So Alan Ivermey, why was he picked, do you think, to be the man who could present women's art to the women of Britain then? Well, I think because we were really rather organised by the head of the Light Programme, which was Norman Collins, the novelist,

who really thought that women were only interested in domestic things. You know, could see us peeling potatoes. Do you think Alan was interested in peeling potatoes? Is that why he was picked to potentially appeal to these women? No, I think he probably was quite glad to have a job. Right, OK. And in terms of when planning for the programme, you say a lot of it was domestic at first. Pretty well always. It was cookery, recipes for food, of course the rationing was still on,

hairdressing, fashion, childcare, and that was about it. All domestic things. So just in terms of the programme at that time it was split into talks so contributors would give a five minute talk or something? Yes and then the last quarter of an hour was always a story and I cannot remember any of the stories that were read. And so that was how it worked. And how did you get people to come on air? Who were they? Well, either I knew of people or some of my colleagues knew of people

or people sent in scripts. And when they sent in scripts, I sent for them to have them voice tested, first of all. And many of them used to say, I'm so used to public speaking. And I used to say, well, you must forget all that, because the spoken word in broadcasting is completely different. And very often we had to revise a script, because they were writing for the written word and not the

spoken word. So that took quite a lot of time. And then if their voice was all right, we had to rehearse it and time it almost to the second, certainly to the minute. Otherwise, you got into terrible trouble. You still do. If you crash into the news, I'm in awful trouble. I haven't done it yet. So here's hoping I won't. But that's fascinating as well, because microphones will have been very different then. And there was also a lot of sexism about women's voices and how we sounded. Well, of course, they are more difficult even today.

I mean, my hearing isn't awfully good, even with hearing aids. And I do hear the news, I'm afraid, better on men's voices than on women's. Diana, you can't say that, can you? Well, they are easier to hear. And I do remember the first time I heard myself broadcast, I thought I had a nice, slow voice and I sounded, Oh, right up there! Yeah, but wasn't that the time as as well though? People's voices have changed. Yes I think so. I think that's true. Okay we'll

give you a free pass on that. How long did the man last, Alan, in the seat? I can't remember exactly but I think probably a few months. Okay and did you have any idea about your listeners and who they were? Yes, I think so, because it was two o'clock in the afternoon. So a lot of women who weren't working would be at home. And that's why I had a row with Norman Collins and managed to get him to allow me to have talks on careers, because I thought that women sitting at home might be interested in careers for their daughters and also possibly in part-time work for themselves and the one thing I remember that they said part-time work is good is is selling fitting and selling corsets and bras and things like that. A very womanly job indeed.

Yes, and how did that go down? A move away from the domestic more to career focus? Well, as I say, several of us really got at Mr Collins and he did agree that I could have career talks and then other producers managed to get him to have other things. I remember I wanted something on simple economics and had great difficulty. I could get a labour woman very easily but the Conservatives weren't able to produce anyone with much ease

which was quite interesting. You must have had slim pickings when it came to women in high profile positions, actually. Very few. Very few. I suppose the most famous woman that ever spoke on our programme was Mrs Roosevelt. And she was absolutely lovely. She insisted on being introduced to all the other producers and to the engineers who were sitting organising things. And most people just ignored the engineers and only were interested in the producers. Oh, that's lovely that she was like that. Were you daunted? Were you excited to meet Mrs Roosevelt? I was very excited to meet her. And we all sat round and she sort of more or less said, well, what do you want me to say? Because she was talking to the women of England

and what they'd done in the war and that sort of thing. Yes. And she was meant to be formidable in her own right. Yes, but she was gentle with us. And some listeners then sent her all sorts of little presents. Really? Which came to the BBC and we had to pass on to her, all kinds of weird things too.

Like what? Oh, sort of little things that they'd made and embroidered and knitted and that sort of thing. Was it viewed as a success as a programme? Oh, yes, I think so. And I think that being at two o'clock in the afternoon was a good time because the people who were going to speak came before lunch and very often one had an extra run through for timing.

And then there was a shop nearly opposite the BBC on the other side of the road called Yarner's where you could go and get coffee and sandwiches and I always if anybody was particularly nervous I used to take them into a coffee and sandwiches before the programme that's very nice which was was quite a good thing to do. And could you feel, or do you think the BBC, because obviously now we have so many radio stations, but there was the one at that time. Do you think the BBC felt the benefit,

or do you think seeing the world through a woman's lens and having more of a perspective that was focused towards women i think so some of the top people in the bbc weren't all that keen on women i don't think but but some of the others ones above me were very helpful and supportive indeed. And I think listeners were very pleased to have us. What do you say? Of course, the programme's changed enormously over the years. Tremendously.

As society has changed. I didn't know if you wanted to say something on that. Well, in those days, in the early days, really, we were informing women about things. And I would say from the little, the few programmes I've listened to, we are asking women about things more and interviewing them and asking them to say what they feel, whereas it was different before. It was sort of like learn with us and hear what we have to say and can tell you. Although we, as producers, we tried not to make it sound too governancy.

But I think also, of course, I think that's a really fascinating difference actually to think about because we also want to hear people's experiences more and bring more people in. This is a topic that has been in the news only very recently about equal pay at the BBC. How was it for you and your fellow female producers? Well, in the talks department, I don't know about other departments, I discovered talking to one of my male colleagues that I was paid exactly the same as he was. But if he'd been married, he would have got something extra for having a wife.

And we were extremely well paid in those days. Shall I tell you how much? Yes, if you can recall. Well, it was close on £900, which sounds like nothing today, but was really a lot then. And I was very pleased to have it. And how did you find out you were paid equally to your male colleague?

Well, I was sharing an office with a male colleague and it came up and I said, well, what do you get paid? I forget what his name was. And he told me we were on very easy terms. So do you recommend women still doing that today, to check? Yes, I would. Would you call yourself a feminist? No, I don't think I'm a feminist, but after all, when I went to university,

there were only 500 women at Cambridge. And I believe in the education of women, and I believe that women should be able to do what they want. What's the problem with the word feminism? I mean, it wouldn't have necessarily... Would it have even been in the ether when you were producing Woman's Hour? Not much. No, I don't think so. Not much. But I was just interested now if you thought of yourself in that way, having been, I can't believe I'm talking to one of the first producers of Woman's Hour.

I don't like the word feminism. Why not? It's too stereotyped and sort of too aggressive about women. We can do things without having to sort of be backed by a word like feminism. So you don't need the label? No, the label, that's the right word. I forget so many words these days. I hope if I make it to 104, I can speak nearly half as well as you're talking to us today. It's the way you're interviewing me, probably.

Have you got any advice for me? Oh, I would hesitate to give you advice. Always like a production note. Well, I think, believe that women are interested in everything, absolutely everything. There's nothing that we're not interested in. I'm quite sure. Indeed. And we try and live by that. Diana Gayford, 104, one of the first producers of Woman's Hour 75 she was very upset, but she didn't let on too much to her husband as she said he was a very kind man and would have minded on her behalf. They returned from Germany three years later with a small child and to quote her, it would have been very difficult to go back into work again.

Well, I've been asking for your suggestions today and picking up on that point, one of the suggestions that you would like to see is universally available and free at the point of use childcare. How one funds that and how we do that is a discussion we have and talk about a great deal on Woman's Hour. And we'll continue to do so. And perhaps we'll come up when we talk about some of the issues raised in the poll. Many messages coming in. Let me just take this opportunity to read a few.

Anna says, there have been times when I couldn't see the wood for the trees. However, I have always been able to hear Woman's Hour. Have a very happy birthday. Thank you for the company. Thank you to you, Anna. And Emma's got in touch to say, when the programme starts, it's like taking a nice deep breath and feeling like you're part of a community of women

that just get how you feel. I always come away learning something new. It's just wonderful. Catherine says, happy birthday to you all at Woman's Hour. Thank you. I share my 75th birthday with you. We have certainly seen many changes in our 75 years. Happy birthday to you.

Great date to be in touch with us today. And talking of those changes, my mum used to mangle to wring out the clothes, used a mangle, I should say, and then dried them on a line, a pantry instead of a fridge,ing out the clothes used a mangle i should say and then dried them on a line a pantry instead of a fridge no central heating used a cap instead of the pill was a stay at home mum making the sunday joint last three days and early days of antibiotics little use of painkillers i'm exceedingly glad to be a child of the 50s living now that's from suki who's listening hello to you my mother didn't know how to write a cheque. I run a multi-million pound turnover company with 60 staff. Quite a change there. Another one here from Janet. My biggest change as a mum of three born in 1960. My mum had to

stop teaching when she got pregnant. Unbelievable. My daughter-in-law and young women now do not seem to realise we only got eight weeks paid maternity leave. And we went back to work in 1995. I did senior marketing manager, weeping and leaking milk. Thank God we now have those choices. My life bears no comparison to my mother's and grandmother's. I'm a 60s woman and my choices and opportunities have been in total contrast. And another one, again, just to that point about childcare, the most effective and achievable action would be statutory available of free childcare for preschool and after school hours. More messages coming in to which I promise to return. But I mentioned a poll. To mark Women's Hour's 75th anniversary, we commissioned one to try and capture a snapshot of how equal women feel today, how equality is there or isn't.

And the results are in, and of course I wanted to share them with you first. The result that really stood out, particularly in light of the conversations we've been having over the last few weeks and months following the murders of Sarah Everard, Sabina Nessa and many others, is this. Almost 70% of women polled feel that they do not have full equality due to experiences of sexual exploitation and abuse. Another result may not be surprising,

although the lack of progress is a touch depressing to say the least. 75% of women say the place that they feel most unequal is in the home due to the division of housework and other caring duties. And just over 40% of women say that they've had arguments with a partner when seeking equality in the home, when trying to perhaps make a change, although on that change front, we'll come back to it. The workplace stood out as an area where progress needs to be made. 70% of women say they feel pay and benefits are still not equal.

And progress on this issue was identified as the most important area to achieve equality with around a third of women pushing this top of their list. And when asked how we can achieve equality in the future, half of the women polled say they wanted exactly the same treatment, policies and benefits as men while just over a third said the path to equality lies in the differences between men and women being embraced. So not much consensus there. We're going to come back to that last point towards the end of the programme as we do look ahead. But

let's get started on those key findings with our panel today. The author, Jeanette Winterson, the founder of Everyday Sexism Project, Laura Bates, whose latest book is called Men Who Hate Women. And joining me here in the studio, Inaya Folloran-Iman, a writer and commentator who's just been appointed as a trustee at the National Gallery. A warm welcome to you all, especially on our birthday, on our 75th. Thank you so much for being with us or on extension online with us, as is the way post-pandemic or mid-pandemic, I should say, as our new lives are. But I just wanted to bring up when we're going to start with violence, which is what so much of our recent coverage has focused on, because only yesterday you may have heard this interview. If you didn't, I do highly recommend catching up on it. Mina Smallman was my guest on the programme, mother of Nicole Smallman and Bieber Henry, who was stabbed to death in a London park last year and she was calling for the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, the Mayor of London, the Met Commissioner to quote, do their jobs. Almost 70% of women feel they do not have

full equality due to the experiences of sexual exploitation and abuse. And this is after the Prime Minister ruled out making misogyny a new hate crime. And the Justice Secretary Dominic Raag yesterday was read a dictionary definition of what misogyny is on BBC Breakfast after he included attacks against men when asked about that particular rule change or not. Jeanette Winston, I thought I'd start with you on this. Are you are you surprised that this wasn't actually the top of the list where women felt most unequal? Yes, I am surprised. I think for women going out in their everyday lives, feeling safe is the most important thing. You can't do your job properly. You can't be a good member of society. You can't even think straight if you're always wondering whether or not you're going to be attacked, abused in some way, whether it's physically or verbally. And I think, you know, a lot of guys don't realise that women live with this continually all of the time

as a shadow that follows them wherever they go and whatever they do. And that girls themselves are brought up by their mothers to be more careful, in fact, to be afraid, to be streetwise, to always be looking for where the problems will come. Whereas boys are brought up still to say, you know, go out there, take risks, do your thing, don't worry about what other people say. But, you know, it's a different kind

of confidence and assumption and assertiveness which we want our girls to have. But everything in society is against them having it. You know, I mean, I'm a pretty tough woman and not much bothers me. But I do worry walking home alone at night. I do worry if people are on the tube and they're getting aggressive because I always interfere. You know, I've been knocked over quite a few times just because I've got in the way where women have been bullied or hassled by other men. And we've got to get that out of our lives. And it's no good the prime minister waffling and piffling about how misogyny shouldn't be a hate crime of course it should because it is you can say what you like you can say no we're not going to do it

but it is a hate crime it's a crime i suppose his point his point there uh to make it in case people didn't hear it was we've got the laws the rules in place that we need and we need to actually do a better job of applying them and of course, a review has been announced this week by the Home Secretary into the police and around some of the situations that have been highlighted in the situations that we've learned about Wayne Cousins, the serving police officer who falsely arrested, kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard. Laura, to come to you, Laura Bates, good morning.

Good morning. In terms of when women list the priorities of equality, raped and murdered Sarah Everard. Laura, to come to you, Laura Bates, good morning. Good morning. In terms of when women list the priorities of equality, do you think one of the reasons perhaps this is also something that just doesn't always get brought up is maybe women have inhaled it, it is part of their existence, so perhaps they don't even think to list it? Or what's your latest reading on that? Well, I think if we look at the poll, women didn't say, I don't worry about sexual violence, I only care about the gender pay gap. They were asked to pick one.

I think if you'd asked most women, they'd have said all of these things. We need progress in all these areas. And actually one on its own can't fix the problem because what we're finally starting to talk about is that this is systemic. This is not about telling individual women to stop wearing short skirts or handing out attack alarms, as the local council did after Sabina Nessa's death, or telling women in Clapham not to go out at night on their own,

as police did after Sarah Everard's death. It's about systems and institutional misogyny, and that cuts across. So yes, it sees women in the workplace penalized it sees thousands of them losing their jobs because they become pregnant it also sees women under represented in politics where the decisions are being made that could change these things it sees women not being fairly treated or supported by police or the criminal justice system when they involve experience sexual violence so I don't think you can pick any one of these things separately. You can't separate our completely in crisis childcare system from the issues that women are facing at work and the gender pay gap.

You can't separate the fact that we have a justice minister who doesn't know the meaning of the word misogyny and a prime minister who talked about the hate crime proposals completely incorrectly on the news, showing that he either hasn't bothered to find out about them or he was deliberately spreading misinformation about them. It wouldn't create new offences. It doesn't widen the scope. It just changes the way that police records these things and gives the opportunity to recognise the problem. These things are all connected. You can't really pick one out and say, if we fix this one, that would be most important.

And one of the things we're trying to do today, thank you for that, Laura, on the programme, is obviously look how things have changed and what's different now than 75 years ago. Much is. But a massive change when we talk about violence and the influence of our culture is being online, porn,

and how that plays into this bigger picture that Laura was just painting. Well, I think there's a few things that I want to pick up on. So the overwhelming majority of people that are victims, women that are victims of sexual violence or violence in general, do happen with people that they do already know. So this idea that, you know, going out on the street, you are likely to be a victim of some kind of predator or somebody grabbing you doesn't really stack up to the reality. And I actually really worry about this narrative of essentially encouraging women to feel

like they should retreat from public life out of this perpetual fear that they're going to be a victim of violence. I actually think that women should be embracing public life and actually being able to risk danger in order for their freedom. And so the reality is that actually, women are by and large incredibly safe. When it comes to this issue of policing as well, I think this is really important. I think trust in policing has undoubtedly been damaged over the last few weeks and months. And I think undoubtedly, there are sexist individuals within the police. But I think this narrative that there is this kind of systemic misogyny within policing is actually quite a dangerous one. One of the primary reasons that women... You may find it dangerous, sorry, but just to say we had a retired police officer from the Met the other day on the programme, you can look it up, saying she believes that the force is institutionally sexist. But one of the primary reasons that women point to for not reporting issues of violence

is the sense that police won't do anything. And so if we continue to perpetuate this idea that the police aren't going to do anything, they're institutionally misogynistic and won't support women, then I think that that will actually corrode women's trust and actually prevent them from actually reporting these issues. And so I do think that the narrative as well and how that impacts our relationship with institutions and each other can actually contribute. I can see Laura would really like to come back in on this. I'm just going to just say one other thing very briefly before I bring

you in, Laura. And Aya, you're in your 20s, Laura, you're in your 30s, and Jeanette, you're in your 60s, because we did see differences between how people felt certain things at different points in their life. I just wanted to point that out. out Laura what did you want to come in on and then I'll try and return to the cultural point well I think the idea that you know women simply are safe in public spaces and this is all overblown we just have the stats to know that that's not the case 86% of young women are sexually harassed in public 71% of all women one in five of us are sexually assaulted 85,000 of us are raped every year so firstly i think complaining about the problem isn't the issue you know to say women shouldn't

speak up about this because it scares us no we're scared because we're sexually harassed all the time and in terms of the institutional i just let laura finish that point and then bring you back in an eye sorry laura in terms of the institutional, we have the stats there again. 125 women in the past two years have accused police officers of domestic abuse. There have been 600 complaints of sexual misconduct allegations made against the Met Police between 2012 and 2018. That's 100 a year. We know that only one in 18 members of the Met who are accused of sexual assault are ever subjected to formal action. Wayne Cousins isn't the odd bad apple in a good institution. He was in a WhatsApp group sharing misogynistic and racist messages

with five other officers. Twelve other officers are now under investigation. That is alleged at the moment. Alleged to have been an institutional issue. May I just bring an eye back in then? So a few things. I think that I don't deny any of those statistics, but I think it's really important to put them in context.

Even the Office of National Statistics also mentions that many of these issues are in long term decline. They have acknowledged in their report and in their statistics that actually changes in reporting and greater awareness for big things in terms of reporting has actually affected statistics. And I also do think that there is a danger in suggesting that there is some kind of continuum between Wayne Cousins, who is this horrendously evil, sickening character, with somebody on the street that may catcall. I think that that is quite removing the agency of some of the individuals that do those horrendous things. And actually, I think it's not true that there is a continuum that men are these violent predators inherently, and women are just these perpetual victims of public life. I don't think that's a narrative that actually stacks up

to how most women feel. And I think it's corrosive to gender relations. Jeanette, where do you come in on that? I can't agree with that. I think the experience of most women is that if there is violence, it's men who are perpetuating the violence. It's not women who are knocking around men in the streets and raping them and abusing them. It's men who are perpetuating the violence it's not women who are knocking around men in the streets and raping them and abusing them it's men who are doing it to women and we do have to

recognize that and as I said you know the experience of many women is that there's there's hassle and aggression on the streets not from people they know but from people they don't know and I was on the Eurostar the other week coming back, there's three guys in the seats around me, they're all swapping pictures of girls saying, do you think she's hot? What do you think about that one? And I said, listen, guys, I'm finding this quite offensive, because I just want to read my book. And they just couldn't understand why there was a problem. Now, these aren't people I know, this is just the general corrosive atmosphere where women are commodified and objectified, going about their daily life and have always to be aware, even if violence doesn't ensue, even if there's no verbal battle, even if there's no catcalling,

that women themselves are not on an equal footing on the streets, in the workplace with the guys. Well, I think in terms of what Anaya, and I don't wish to paraphrase this, is saying, and we can see, you know, where I know you're on tricky territory, especially presenting Women's Hour, is when you try and understand what most women feel, because we then get a lot of messages with a lot of debate around it.

But I think what Anaya, forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, is trying to say, not all women feel like this when going out, and you're potentially concerned about spreading concern about that. And yet the statistics also tell a very compelling story, which we've been exploring. And now there

is, as I say, for instance, with the police, certainly one institution, a review, although it isn't going to be statutory. I'm going to bring you all on to pay if I can, because 70% of women say they feel pay and benefits are still not equal. When asked what was considered the most important area for progress to be made, pay and benefits came out on top. Older women aged 55 plus are more likely than younger women aged 18 to 34 in this poll to see pay and benefits as the most important issue for progress to be made. And yesterday, it was revealed that the gender pay gap in this country has widened despite efforts by the governments and regulators. Women were paid 87 pence for every pound paid to men in April 2020. That's the latest figures, which was worse than 2019 when a pay gap was at 12.8 percent.

So we've gone backwards with the data that we have. Jeanette, I believe you're very strong on this from the point of view of money being key here when we talk about equality. I believe it is. I grew up with a mother who had no money of her own. Many women in my generation did. And we saw how imprisoning, corrosive, disempowering that was. When you have your own money, you feel more confident. You feel that you can make choices. Even if you're having a bad time with your partner in the flat, you can go out, you can get a taxi, you can go and stay somewhere. It gives you a whole different relationship to life. And when you have the power of money, men know that because

they all want to earn well, you know, they talk about being able to support their families, that's great. But women need to be able to know too, that they're on the same footing, the same parity, that they have on the same footing the same parity that they have the same opportunities and the same pay as do men and I think that gives women more bargaining in the home too about who's doing the housework who's doing the child care if you're in an asymmetrical situation where the woman has very little of her own or is dependent on the man then it's really difficult to get domestic equality, to get to get those first intimate relationships shaped up. And then, of course, the children see that maybe mommy's doing

all the housework and daddy's out. And I think then this perpetuates it generationally and makes it difficult for girls to think, no, equality is and should be normal. That's what we all want, we don't even want to be talking about this anymore we just want it to be normal that men and women are equal in society in every aspect and respect i mean diana wouldn't call it feminism but i would go back to diana goford yes definitely wasn't a fan of that label and i you also smiled at that point when our 104 year old guest said she wasn't a feminist maybe you'll say why in a moment but but it's an interesting point to show that it's older women who talk even more about this being a priority, because actually when you start, it's not necessarily the biggest issue. It's as you get further along in your career, when obviously other issues start to take place, not least having children. Where are you on this?

No, absolutely. I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with what has been said. I think, again, it's important to actually look at what many of the figures say. So for full time men and women under 40, there is a very, very small gender pay gap. So it is something that is changing, and it's getting better over time. But I definitely think there is this motherhood penalty. And I think that is a reality that many women still face. And still, there's a lot of things that need to be done about that there isn't equal maternity and paternity care I think there should be considerations in relation to whether or not we should actually be incentivizing or paying women that actually take time off or having much more flexible work because I don't think that having children is just an individual

personal choice I think it's actually something that's necessary and for many for the reproduction of the workforce and also society. So I do think that there are things that can be done in relation to making sure that there are more equal opportunities for women that take time off for childcare and take time off to have kids. But I do think when it comes to actually the gender pay gap, when we actually look at it and split it up, it's not actually necessarily as wide, particularly for people under 40 and full time work. The data also, though, has been criticised because of the amount that you can get access to and the number of companies that have to disclose. Laura, I'm sure you've got a take on that and also on

this more broadly. Yes, absolutely. I mean, the fact that the gender pay gap reporting was dropped during COVID, I think, was a good example of how seriously it's taken. The fact that so few companies actually have been providing the data at all. But yes, I think, again, these things are all really closely connected. You can't just separate out part-time work and say, we won't look at that because it's inconvenient, because the reality is that many women are pushed into low-paid part-time work with little opportunity for promotion because of the enormous burden of unpaid care and domestic work that women take on. We know that women do 16 hours of household chores a week on average in the UK and men do six.

And we know that the Covid pandemic has exacerbated this. We know that mothers were almost twice as likely to lose their jobs or quit during Covid. Over a third of women lost work or hours and 44% of black, Asian and minority ethnic women. So again, I think you have to... It was like, just to break in there, I was just going to say, it was like the pandemic. You may say you don't want, you know, we don't wish to have to still have these conversations, but it was like the pandemic, Laura, wasn't it?

Shone a microscope on what has been going on in people's homes. Yes, and I think it also shone a microscope on how closely connected this is with the people in power making decisions, because that enormous disproportionate impact that fell on the shoulders of women, and particularly mothers in the pandemic, was not mitigated by a government in which the cabinet making the big decisions had barely a handful of women in it. So I think it really shows how closely connected

these issues are, that we need to start seeing them as systemic, that we have to tackle the childcare crisis, because it is so closely connected to these issues. But also that there are other really specific issues at play here. When we studied sexual harassment in the workplace, which also has a big knock-on impact because many women leave the workplace because of it, we found that women in very low-paid roles, and particularly those on zero hours and unstable contracts, were at the highest risk. So this is also very much an intersectional issue as well. I am going to come back to our esteemed panel here, if I can call you that, on our birthday,

to come back to some solutions and some looking ahead with things that you would like to change, or what would top your list. Although I know, Laura, it's all connected, but if you had to prioritise one, I would be very interested to hear from each of you so Jeanette Winterson, Laura Bates and Anaya Folloran-Iman I will come back to you very shortly but let's have a bit of this shall we not only a decent song of course to hear on the 75th anniversary of Women's Hour, and especially if you're not feeling it, maybe try and feel it now in yourself, because I play that song anytime, really. But it also might mean something to my next guest, who's been dubbed the Beyonce of the law.

On a programme where we are discussing the gap between the legislation that's meant to deliver equality between the sexes and the reality of women's lives, who better than to talk to the first woman made president of the UK Supreme Court, Baroness Brenda Hale, a role she stepped down from last year, but interestingly, a role she missed out on the first time she went for, she suspects, because of her feminism. Let's get to that in just a moment. But the biggest wave she made in terms of publicity was in 2019, when she delivered the verdict that the Supreme Court found the proroguing or the suspension of Parliament by Prime Minister Johnson had been unlawful.

As many high-profile women find out, what you wear is often commented on more than what you say and it was a large sparkly spider brooch costing 12 quid. I understand that stole Lady Hale's limelight and inspired the title of her new book, Spider Woman, a life by the former president of the Supreme Court. Talking about going from rural village life in Yorkshire to a pioneer in law. Lady Hale, good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Lovely to talk to you again. Yes, we have spoken before. And I remember the last time we spoke on the radio. I did send you a playlist, a suggested playlist afterwards of Beyonce to get ready before your verdicts. Did you ever take me up on that? I took you up rather belatedly when somebody else sent me a load of CDs. And so I played quite a lot of her songs. And I tended to find that I liked the lyrics of a lot of them very much indeed. The music possibly not quite mine. Well, I did catch up on your Desert Island Discs and she wasn't included, I don't believe, in any of your choices. But the lyrics of Beyonce have spoken to you and to many others. I like the thought of you getting ready in some way, shape or form to Beyonce.

What I wanted to ask about was I just mentioned there you thought you perhaps missed out on the Supreme Court role first because of feminism. Tell us more about that. Well, it may be. Obviously, I have never been at all ashamed to call myself a feminist. I think probably the word has bad associations for some people because of the aggressive nature and the man-hating nature of some of the second wave of feminism in the 60s and 70s. And that's not my style of feminism. But I still think that we've got to confess to a belief that women are equal to men. And that's what feminism means. And that women's experience of life is just as important and valid in shaping the way the world works as is men's experience. That's what I mean by feminism. You are preaching quite literally to the choir here

on this particular programme, I hope. But in terms of your suspicion of that being the reason, did somebody tell you? Did somebody whisper in your ear? What's your reason for that? What's your evidence? No, I don't have any evidence. I think other people did say a few things behind the scenes. But I had always spoken up about the need for there being more women in the senior judiciary and in the senior ranks of the legal profession, because, of course, you need that in order to get them into the judiciary. And no doubt there will have been some people who were a little bit

irritated by that. Very diplomatically put. Yes. Well, I think that's the case. Talking of people who may have been irritated by you, did you ever see Boris Johnson personally after your ruling with your fellow judges? No, I haven't seen him personally at all, no. Only because I remember that these papers were released about when giving his reasoning, they were redacted at first for the suspending of Parliament. Boris Johnson, it was revealed, called his predecessor, David Cameron, a girly swat, which is a phrase I believe you identify with.

Oh, well, of course I'm a girl and I try and be reasonably girly and I've always been a swat. What I've always called myself is a specky swot. So no awkward meetings yet with Mr. Johnson? No, it would be really nice to meet him and say hello and have a good natter about things. I'm sure you'd have a lot to talk about. And I'm sure he wouldn't bring up the brooch as so many have. But you've owned it with the book title. I wanted to ask you, do you feel the law treats women equally and well as it stands? Because you have been so involved with changing parts of the law is a huge improvement now on what it was when I started out in the law, which is a very long time ago now. I'm not 104, but I am 76. And so only a year older than women's are. So things have changed a lot. And most of the laws that we have, actually, if you read them and understand them, are fine.

It's the way they're put into practice. It's how people do or do not handle them. I mean, we have loads of laws about sexual abuse and sexual violence and exploitation and so on. But if they're not taken seriously by the people whose job it is to enforce them and investigate them and do something about them, well, then they're not worth the paper they're written on. So that's where we need the biggest of changes. Are you talking about the people, are you talking about our elected officials? No, I'm talking, I think, rather more about the institutions whose job it is to enforce the law. I mean, some of it, equal pay, for example, that's a matter for employers and for trade unions

and individual negotiation. Things about sexual exploitation and abuse, that is a matter for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts. So it's all sorts of bodies that may or may not take things seriously. Let me pick up on that. As a citizen, which you still are, despite having been a judge, how did you feel yesterday when the Justice Secretary, the Lord Chancellor, had to have misogyny defined to him that it didn't include hatred against men?

Well, I'm really sorry. I think it's most unfortunate. I expect he thinks it's most unfortunate, too. People don't like to make that sort of boo-boo, do they, in public? And the discussion about whether to include misogyny as a hate crime is a really interesting discussion, because in a way it shouldn't be necessary, but it does exacerbate, what it does is exacerbate the seriousness of certain types of behaviour and give them a greater priority amongst the law enforcers. So there is definitely a case for doing that. It's not for me, of course, to tell legislators what to do. I know you know the boundaries of what you can and should and shouldn't say

very clearly, but just because of people hearing that yesterday, a boo-boo, as you call it, a gap in the knowledge, you talk about needing a greater priority. There will be some thinking, well, if the Justice Secretary doesn't even know that misogyny doesn't include hate against men, what hope have we got? Well, he has been educated, has he not? We will see. Just about the judges. Last year, a judge in the family court, I'm not going to expect you to talk about this specific case, but just to remind people, because we covered the story on Woman's Hour, was criticised for finding a woman was not raped because, quote, she took no physical steps to stop the man. The woman won the appeal after arguing Robin Tolson's approach led to her losing

a fight with a former partner censored on their son. And the High Court judge who oversaw that woman's appeal has described Tolson's approach towards the issue of consent at manifestly at odds with what's currently acceptable in a socio-sexual conduct. And in April this year, there's now training for the family courts and the family courts were told to prioritise the issue of coercive and controlling behaviour when considering disputes between parents in domestic abuse cases. And that's what Court of Appeal judges have advised. I bring that up, there's fresh guidance now, I should say, I bring that up because judges are human and judges are working with their own lens as well as the law. How concerned are you when you hear something like that from judges within the family courts? Well, I think the first thing that I would say, Emma, and you might expect me to say this anyway, is that actually that's a very rare example.

Most of the judges in the family courts do have a reasonable awareness of things like that and incidents like that are comparatively rare but of course one always needs to have proper education proper understanding a proper sharing of views I mean I can remember when I when I was Family Division Liaison Judge for London, and I got all the family judges in London together to discuss the issue of the impact of domestic abuse on children. And it was amazing how many people assumed that it was just between the adults, it didn't have any impact on the children. Really?

I'm talking about the 90s, of course, so some time ago. But we all now know that children suffer very deeply indeed if they're exposed to violence and abuse between their nearest and dearest adults. And so it is a question always of education, understanding. I don't quite like the word training because people have got to be able to think these things through for themselves. They've got to internalise and understand it. And that's why education is better than telling you this is what you must do. Judges don't like being told what to do, But they do like to understand the situations which they face.

Well, I was going to just remind our listeners that one of your highlights in the Supreme Court was redefining violence, if I can describe it like that, to have a broader definition from the physical side, including to now what we know as a phrase. You know, phrases come into our lives, new phrases, coercive control, and that was as part of your work. So I just wanted to flag that.

I love that you mentioned about judges and not being liked to be told to be wrong. Can anyone argue with you in the family? Can your daughter take you on? Oh, yes. Well, I come from a family of strong minded women. So we're used to it. And among the strong minded women are my daughter and now my granddaughter. I think that she's just as strong-minded and do they ever win of course she can do they win oh gosh yes from time to time I'd have to think of an example which I can't at the moment just just just finally before I return to our to our panel do you feel uh equal in your life as a woman now? Or is there an area that you would like to highlight for change that you would prioritise? You know, I always used to feel equal.

By the time I got to the top of the legal tree, of course I felt equal. But since retirement, I have encountered quite a few women and also quite a few situations in which it really is very difficult. My state pension went down nearly a thousand pounds a year. Well, after my husband died and I still don't know why. And I know another woman who had exactly the same experience.

Now, obviously I'm very well situated, but nevertheless, that sort of thing, which may or may not be a women's issue. I don't know whether it is or it isn't, but there are all sorts of things like that, quite apart from the childcare problem. And the amount of time that it took to unravel my husband's estate.

Now, if I'd been on my B-men's, goodness knows what I would have done. So I think women still face a great many difficulties which come from the way in which power and wealth and expertise is distributed in society. How sobering to sort of hear that from you as you come out of your work. And may I also say how sorry I am because I know that the loss of your husband was last year as well, just as you had retired from the bench.

So let me say that as well. But it's very probably comforting for some of our listeners who have followed your work to hear that you also have experienced some of those issues in terms of equality and your life as well. And I suppose that's why we also just need to pump ourselves up with a bit of Beyonce or whatever your tipple is from here and now.

Lady Hale, thank you so much for coming on the programme. Thank you, Emma. Great to talk to you again. Thank you very much. Let me put that question just finally with the time that I have back to my panel. Let me come to you first, Inaya time that I have back to my panel. Let me come to you first, Anaya Folarin-Iman, writer and commentator. What's top of your list, if you like, for things that you would like to see change over the next 75 years or in much quicker order for women and equality? I mean, I would say present academic Kathleen Stock is facing a campaign of intimidation and harassment at the University of Sussex because she believes in a very specific definition of womanhood. And I think that actually for women to be able to describe the specificity of their own experience and to be able to organise around that is something that is facing challenge, unfortunately, right now. And so when we talk about kind of misogyny and the fact that different politicians aren't able to even know what that means,

I think it's unsurprising when we find it very difficult to even talk about what being a woman means. So I think that when we're able to talk about that in a free and open way, I think it demystifies many of these problems and makes it much easier to apprehend them. On that particular topic, we've, of course, talked a lot about it here on Women's Hour.

Jeanette, I don't know if you, Jeanette Winston, I don't know if you want to come back on that or say a different one. For me, it's always going to be about the money on the table, the money in your pocket, the money in your bank account. But you get that via education. And I know in schools that a lot of girls just aren't encouraged to take themselves seriously as they go forward in life. There's still an assumption that they'll get married, they'll take huge career breaks, or some

guy will support them. And it is not so. You know, when Brenda was talking about power and about wealth and about expertise, all of that starts with how women and girls are educated. And that isn't just what you learn, what subjects you study. It's all of those assumptions about who you are in the world, which will change how you go forward and therefore what platforms you will occupy. You know, we've done brilliant things in 75 years and we should celebrate all of that. And I'm celebrating it. But I do want to see women going forward to be CEOs, to starting their own companies, to getting to the top of their professions, on equal pay, making a difference in the world. And we're nowhere near there yet. So let's keep an eye on how we're educating our girls. And let's keep an eye on what opportunities we're giving them as they go forward into professional life as serious persons in society.

Jeanette Winterson, thank you for that. Laura Bates? Well, I will pick one, Emma, which is sexual violence, because we've said today that we're making progress, but not on sexual violence. We are at an all-time low. We're at crisis point. 1.4% of rape cases reported to the police even result in a charge or summons. But I have to say that in order to tackle it, I think it must be a systemic connected solution. It's connected to the fact that 80% of girls say sexual assault is common in their peer group at school. It's connected to a judiciary where men are still getting off because they claim that a woman wanted rough sex or

getting a few years in prison because they snapped and killed their wives in lockdown. It's connected to terrible underfunding of frontline services for women who experience sexual violence, particularly specialist services for disabled and BAME women. It's connected to a media which described Wayne Cousins as a thoughtful, lovely, wonderful man on the day that he was sentenced. And it would help if we had more women in e-leadership so we weren't being led through these systems and this crisis by political leaders who call women totty and advise men to pat them on the bottoms in the workplace. Well, Laura Bates, thank you very much for putting that together for us.

Inaya Folloran-Iman, thank you to you. Jeanette Winterson, thank you very much. Lady Hale, of course. It's been a very instructive time for us to be together. There's also a lot to celebrate, which Jeanette, I know, was also keen to mention there. Thank you so much for your company as always today and all of your messages about change. We'll try and publish some more on our Instagram later. And on our 75th birthday from myself and all of the team who make this programme happen every day,

we wanted to leave you with this beauty from the singer Andra Day. Rise up. I will rise a thousand times again. And we'll rise up. I like the waves. We'll rise up in spite of the ache. We'll rise up and we'll do it a thousand times again. For you. For you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. What's the link between poisoned underpants? They wanted something that rubs against your skin. A plot to kill Nelson Mandela. To find a poison that would cause cancer and have him die shortly afterwards. And the deadly riots in South Africa this year. I'm Andrew Harding with a tale of politics and paranoia. Some people wanted me dead. Oh, and the link is Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president. And indeed, it was quite a strong poison. That's Poison from BBC Radio 4.

To listen to all five episodes, just search for Seriously on BBC Sounds. sounds. eye on earth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.