Woman's Hour - Women and boundaries; Anneliese Dodds; Delia Owens

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

It’s been seven weeks since the UK went into lockdown, and for many women, the lines between work and home life have become blurred on a day-to-day basis. What’s the best way to create boundaries in order to protect your own mental well-being and a sense of routine? Dr Yasin Rofcanin, of the University of Bath’s School of Management, has worked on new research exploring how COVID-19 is impacting our understanding of boundaries. Chloë Davies is the head of PR and Partnerships at myGwork – a business community for LGBT+ professionals. She’s currently working from home with a four and two year old. Melanie Eusebe is a business professor and a Director at Accenture, a management consulting firm.Where The Crawdads Sing, the first novel by Delia Owens, has sold more than 6 million copies. Woman’s Hour listeners have suggested it as a perfect lockdown read. Delia talks to Jane from her home in North Carolina – what does the book have to say about loneliness, resilience and the power of nature? The debate continues about whether or when people who don’t need PPE should wear face masks, and we’ve been talking to women round the world who have dragged out their sewing machines. Khedi is from Chechnya and she now lives in Gdansk. Maria Margaronis spoke to her with the help of a translator and to fellow mask-makers including a Polish psychologist.On Sunday evening the Prime Minister spoke to the country about the way out of lockdown and yesterday his government published its Covid 19 recovery strategy. Many have complained that the message is unclear, that supporting guidance is not yet ready and that too much is left to appeals to common sense – including the discretion of employers. But many are also anxious to get back to work, to support their families and to get their children back into education and childcare safely. But what account has been made of the economic position of women and including them in plans to rebuild the economy? Anneliese Dodds, Shadow Chancellor and MP for Oxford East discusses her concerns about the government’s plans. The teenage years are the ones where young people seek independence. So how is it working out now that they’re cooped up at home with their parents 24/7? In today’s Woman’s Hour Corona Diaries, Kate in Cirencester talks about the changing landscape of her relationship with her twin teenage girls, and how they’re trying to establish new boundaries to suit life in lockdown.Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Sarah Crawley Interviewed guest: Dr Yasin Rofcanin Interviewed guest: Chloë Davies Interviewed guest: Melanie Eusebe Interviewed guest: Delia Owens Interviewed guest: Khedi Interviewed guest: Anneliese Dodds Interviewed guest: Kate Treadaway Reporter: Maria Margaronis

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast. The 12th of May 2020 is where we're at. Welcome to the programme. This is Woman's Hour live from Broadcasting House at BBC Woman's Hour if you want to contact us today. And as was mentioned in the news at 10 o'clock,

the Chancellor is going to be centre stage later. On Woman's Hour later, we've got the first woman to hold the post of Shadow Chancellor. Labours Annalise Dodds will be with us before a quarter to 11 this morning. Also today, Delia Owens, who, if that name is familiar to you, it'll be because she has written a book so many women have absolutely devoured. It's called Where the Crawdads Sing. It's a big one with the book clubs. You might well have done it at yours.

Delia will tell us a little bit about herself and about the inspiration for that novel on Woman's Hour this morning. First of all, lockdown has perhaps inevitably meant that the lines between work and home are becoming more and more blurred. So how do you manage to create necessary boundaries in order to work productively and look after yourself at the same time?

Chloe Davis is the head of PR and partnerships at MyGWork. That's a business community for LGBTQ plus professionals. She's currently working from home with a four-year-old and a two-year-old. We'll talk to her in a moment and also get the view of Melanie Eusebi, who is a management consultant and chair of the Black British Business Awards, co-founder of that awards as well. We'll talk to them both and we'll get the view of a man called Dr Yassine Rufkanen, who is the University of Bath School of Management individual. He's an expert in boundary theory. We'll hear what he has to say in a few moments after we've heard a little bit about the current working life of Chloe and Melanie.

Chloe, tell us about exactly what you do and how you're managing to do it right now. Good morning, Jane. So I am in charge of the internal and external conversations that many of our clients or businesses and people will want to have, as well as facilitating what we used to do. So training and some of the in-person events that we used to have, they've now all gone virtual and online. So I spend a lot of my time doing webinars or private sessions. And as you can imagine, with a four-year-old and a two-year-old, it's having to get really inventive about where I can go for an hour's silence. So I'm grateful we have a garden. We've tried putting them outside when the weather is really nice. But my go-to space has now become the loft. So I'm currently speaking to you in our loft

with the latch slightly up because they can't climb the ladder. Where are they now, Chloe? They're downstairs, I can hear them. All right. Looking at some of the stuff you've been putting out on social media, there was a very funny post on Instagram.

You claim to have written a couple, at least three emails, I think you said, with a child on your head yeah that's my youngest son theo who has no respect for boundaries at all um and thought that sitting on mummy's head was actually the best place uh for him so many a time i kind of i'm walking around with a business phone and then a laptop and just kind of do what I what I possibly can you know I'm grateful to have a job but it's just about adapting. Yeah Melanie we can make light of this and Chloe is obviously very happy to do so and well done to her for being so open about it all but actually Melanie this can be very tough on a lot of people particularly women.

This is tough and so you, don't get me wrong. Flexible working is brilliant for women. Under these circumstances, these incredibly sad circumstances, this is where we see that there's a crunch point and we go back to that superwomen trope that we are trying to escape from, where we're literally trying to run three different kind of parts of our lives concurrently and so that's where there's a real danger that we are going to be overwhelmed and overloaded and our mental health will suffer. Yeah and we need to make clear of course not everybody has the opportunity

to work from home in many ways that itself is a real privilege isn't it we need to acknowledge that. Exactly so it is a privilege and And actually, that privilege contributes towards the guilt that I sometimes feel that, you know, I'm having problems managing the different parts of my life all together in my little house, off my little desk. But on the other hand, I know that there were such incredibly sad circumstances that I almost feel guilty for feeling overwhelmed, because at least I have something to be overwhelmed with. It's a catch-22 in some senses. So how are you playing it?

Are you operating as diligently as you would do normally? Because you're on your tod at home, aren't you? Yes, I am at home with my loud dog that barks when the leaves blow. And so what I've had to do is very much separate my life. But on the other hand, warn people that this is what they can expect by being on a Zoom call with me or by being on a conference call with me. And so it's a balancing act between letting people in, but then also trying to have boundaries. Chloe, are you conscious that perhaps you're trying to do more than you would do normally because you don't want to let anybody down?

I think definitely, you know, like I was mentioning, it is, you know, slightly that guilt, not only because, you know, we're in this position, you know, when we talk to our friends and family who may not necessarily, may not necessarily. But I think it's also that line between being reactive and knowing that, you know, when someone emails ordinarily, you know, you'd wait until the business hours are finished, but, you know, it's almost that you kind of want to just react to that to make sure that someone knows that you're at the other end. And it's trying to find a nice balance between the two and sometimes the right balance, which I have to admit that I do struggle with.

I think, you know, like Melissa said, it's thinking about what this time means for everyone. And, you know, I'm someone that also struggles with their mental health. So it's now trying to find the right time to have therapy and where I can do that virtually within the house where you don't necessarily have any space. I should say that later in the programme, we are talking to a listener called Kate, who works as a counsellor, and she's going to tell us a little bit about how she's doing her very professional and important work from home right now, because there are complications there inevitably. She's doing a Woman's Hour Coronavirus Diary for us towards the end of today's programme. I want you both to listen to Dr Yassine

Rofkanen. He's from the School of Management at Bath University, and he's done research into the impact of COVID-19 on the working lives of everybody. Now, this is interesting. He believes that essentially we divide into two categories, segmentators who want clear-cut boundaries between work and home, and integrators who are happier to blur the lines between work and home. Women, in most of my studies, published research, they are segmentators. From our research perspective, we know one important reason is childcare and elderly care. Women, female employees are the major caretakers. But feminists certainly would say that men are allowed to be integrators because women will do the childcare and the caring for the elderly at home

that allows the men to carry on working. Exactly, and very, very unfortunately. And our recent study about COVID has actually confirmed and supported that prediction to a great extent. And what is the impact likely to be on women's working lives? The impact is likely to be in the form of falling behind the career ladder, being seen as less performance driven and productivity driven. So we know, based on the statistics we already have,

that COVID-19 actually poses more of a health risk to men. But you seem to be suggesting it might have a greater social impact on women. Definitely. And I think this is a fascinating study that I would like to also briefly mention. So we collected diary data, data that means that we collected data over the days from employees in England, Spain and Italy, equally from men and women. What we have found was supervisor support for family and exhaustion were most important in order to reduce

stress related to COVID. But when we divided in terms of genders, our findings were fascinating in that women tend to report higher degree and extent of COVID-related stress compared to men. We were able to show that this is because women perceive higher extent of mental home demands at home. In other words, they perceive that they are responsible from dealing with home errands and home performance, and that at the same time they need to work, be in communication with their supervisors, and take care of the kids and children. That's the view of Dr. Yasin Rofkanen. And once again, we need to emphasise, and I don't think we can emphasise enough, there is no doubt that the greater health risk from COVID-19 is to men, not to women. But

what Yassine was saying there was that the social impact might be felt more keenly by women. So let's put that to Melanie. First of all, Melanie, what do you think about the idea of segmentators and integrators? I think that it's a privilege. When I first read the research, I agreed with it. However, I thought that it was a privilege that was not very much afforded to women, that most women have additional care responsibilities that would force them to be integrators. And it was lovely that we were able to look at the diaries, because if I look at my diary, it's a combination of teaching my nephew French, as well as, you know, going on a board meeting to decide strategic measures. And they're all blended together. And even though I would love to segment my life in that way, it's just not possible with care responsibilities and, quite frankly, socioeconomic conditions where my flat doesn't allow me to segregate you know into a room or you know I'm literally putting a corner of my life away yeah I mean space is has never been more important and if you've got space Chloe it's a

huge it puts you at an immense advantage at the moment doesn't it I mean it really does and I just want to apologize to Melanie because I called you Melissa my apologies but um but no it I'm so grateful to have the space for a garden but I totally agree with you you know with the best will in the world I would love to be able to separate and even having that space you know I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old who they just go where they would like to go at any given time and um you know I think there's a bit that we're missing that when we talk about the impact on not only men and women and I think, you know, mental health and you're covering that later, but also the impact that it's having on children and how they're really dealing at this time in this space. You know, they need mummy more. they need hugs, they need cuddles. And when you're trying to work during the day, as well as kind of take care of a home, keep an eye on everything you need to as well as yourself. There isn't enough time in the day, let alone space to kind of cover all of that. So I think, you know, the greater impact is

not only when you're caring, but the responsibility of kind of keeping everybody else on track but you have you have a husband at home with you don't you chloe i have a partner yeah yeah sorry they're dead yeah they're dead it's okay yeah um and and yeah he is he is here but um he is also still working that takes him outside of the house so it's also that panic um every time he does leave uh that you know it's the the boundaries that we put in place for coming back home safely yeah of course coming back home safely but also when he's out of the house presumably that's the end of your working potential for the day in terms of your professional life absolutely that's why you saw that picture

with Theo on my head um because unfortunately um that doesn't necessarily stop and it's back to what I said it's about that adapting to you know I work for a global organization so there are some things I kind of can get away with in terms of I can check in later on in the day for the US but there are others where you know sometimes I just have to be really honest. And like Melanie said, these are my children. They're in the background. I really, you know, I apologise. But this is how it is today. You know, can we carry on? OK, finally, Melanie, this is it does. Well, it should present an opportunity for the way we work to change forever.

Do you think things really have changed and will continue to be very different? Will it look the same a year or two years from now? No, I don't think it will look the same. I think that, again, under these circumstances, we were forced to adapt flexible working and technology that we've never had before. And that has been a blessing. However, on the other side, there's a lot that we have to do to change our mindsets in regards to children not appearing professional or a dog barking not appearing professional, and what that whole concept is in terms of performance that the research mentioned, because we are still, we are even more high performing because we are juggling so many balls,

rather than it being seen as a detriment, rather it being seen something that we have to hide or that we have to apologise for. You know, I do have children, they are going to run through and I'm still badass. That's where we want to get to. Thank you both very much. Melanie Eusebi, who is a management consultant and Chloe Davis as well, head of PR and partnerships at MyGWork. So what's your experience been of working from home or attempting to work from home? Is it working out in terms of also being there for the children, throwing homeschooling into the mix as well at BBC Women's Hour or you can email the programme via our website and is it all making you more stressed than you were before? Now a couple of weeks ago we asked you what you were reading in lockdown,

and a book that came up time and time again is Delia Owen's Where the Crawdads Sing. It has sold six million copies worldwide, and eventually there is going to be a film. Of course, at the moment, Hollywood a little bit on hold, but it almost certainly will happen at some point. It's a first novel by an American woman called Delia Owens. Now, she had another life as a wildlife scientist, and she has in the past written non-fiction about her time in Africa. The novel is set in North Carolina, and that's where she lives now, and the story itself begins in 1952.

Nature is central to the book. It's also a coming-of-age story and a crime drama, and a massive hit, particularly with book groups. So why does Delia think that might be? Partly because where the crawdads sing is a lot about loneliness. When I was studying wildlife in Africa, one of the most fascinating points to me was how I realised that most mammals that live in groups, the groups are made up mostly of females.

Women tend to form groups like book clubs. Of course, men form groups too, but it's very strong in our genetics to form female groups. explore what would happen to a young girl if she was raised in isolation, if she was forced to grow up without a group? What would be the effect? But it's really hitting a nerve across the world right now because so many people are enduring social isolation in a way that they've never put up with it before. So for people who haven't read the book, and I'm aware that many people listening will have devoured it, tell me about the central character. Who is she and what kind of life does she have? Well, Kaya is the heroine of this novel.

And when I first started writing Kaya, she just took off on her own. As I said, I wanted to write about a young girl who lives in isolation. She was abandoned by most of her family. By the time she was 10 years old, she was mostly alone. So she had to fend for herself. And even though she was living in the wilds of the North Carolina marsh, she was strong because she'd been raised in the marsh and she had skills. She knew how to fish and collect mussels, but she had to do all of this on her own. And every time I threw an obstacle in her way, she solved it. I thought I was the author. I thought I was in charge of Kaya, but no, she became stronger and independent. And with every obstacle that she solved, she became more resilient. And that was the point, is that even when you're in isolation, the book is about finding the inner strength and resilience to keep going by yourself. It's also about somebody who is completely embedded in the natural world and about the

creatures that surround her and about how she learns to study them whilst living amongst them. And this is all set in a part of the world that I have to say was totally alien to me, that the swamps and lagoons of North Carolina. That was very important to have that background because one of the points of the book is that we can learn a lot about human nature from nature itself. Nature is where we came from. It was our first home. And by observing it, we can learn how to survive.

And Kaya did. She learned how to gather mussels by watching the ravens. She learned about how to cope with many things. But also, the reason I chose that particular environment is because I wanted this story to be very believable. And the North Carolina marsh, although it's wild, it's warm. It's a temperate climate, so she could survive in that. And there literally is food lying around. I mean, you can collect oysters, you can fish. She would have been able to survive in this environment, mostly by herself. She did always have some adults in the background helping her. I wanted it to be, as I said, mostly by herself. She did always have some adults in the background

helping her. I wanted it to be, as I said, very believable. Yeah, and we should say there are some notable, important characters who reach out across the race divide, actually, and offer her assistance in a way that nobody else is prepared to do. This is your first novel, but you have been a published writer in the past, writing about wildlife and wildlife conservation. Tell me a bit about your life before your move back to the States. I studied wildlife in the wilds of Africa for 23 years. I studied brown hyenas and lions in the Kalahari Desert of Botswana, and elephants in the Luwanga Valley of Zambia. So I have experienced isolation myself. And then I lived in Idaho for many years and not always alone, but I have spent a lot of

my life in total isolation. It was a wonderful life. I loved being out. I would have lions in my camp. Elephants would come in my camp. I came face to face with elephants or lions or brown hyenas every single day. And it was because of that experience, it was because of being able to observe these animals so closely that I began to realize how similar our behavior is to theirs. And a lot of those experiences are what led to my writing this novel. It is, of course, very important for local communities to protect their environment and to protect the animals that live there alongside them. How do you do that as an outsider without being, at best, deeply patronizing and, frankly, intrusive?

Well, we were very, very sensitive about that. Elephant poaching has been a serious problem in Africa. We were there as scientists, my former husband and I, Mark Owens, we were there as scientists studying these animals. But in the area where we were, the elephants were being shot at the rate of a thousand elephants a year. So we came up with this idea in this program to offer, nothing was forced. These people had no industry, they had no schools, they had no health care. We offered loans, micro loans, so that they could start fish farms,

so that they could raise protein for food for their families. We offered loans for beekeeping, grinding mills. We also gave them training and offered health care. We brought in a doctor from Johns Hopkins University and started health care in 15 villages. In other words, we started these programs to improve their lives so they did not have to poach. It is still going on today, 35 years later, which is very rare. And elephants are safer in that area than in many places in Africa. But of course, when you became successful as a novelist, people inevitably went back into your history, found out more about you. And the

incident back in 1995, when you were working in Zambia, when a poacher was killed, the incident was actually filmed by a television crew making a program. And there were then questions about the potential involvement of both your ex-husband and indeed your stepson. Now, I know that there was no suggestion that you were involved, but nevertheless, this is an incident that has obviously come back into the spotlight. Yes, it did, and I can see why. What's interesting is that poachers were shot in different areas of Africa. We are the ones who came up with an alternative.

We were the ones who designed a program that offered jobs and health care to solve the problem that way. And just to answer your question directly, there was an investigation that found that no one in our project, us or anyone in our project, was involved in that alleged incident. I was never accused, as you said, and the people who were accused were accused by journalists. There was never a charge, never an official accusation. Nevertheless, I suppose it's an illustration, isn't it, of just how delicate a business this is. It's very delicate. Other biologists, conserving elephants, have had the same sort of things happen to them. Because we shut down an ivory industry where high level politicians were making millions of dollars off of illegal ivory, we made many enemies. We didn't

force any of this. And I think it was a very wonderful way to help people and wildlife at the same time. Interesting that is Delia Owens author of the mega popular book Where the Craw Dads Sing it's one of those books that takes you somewhere else in this case to the lagoons of North Carolina so interesting to chat to her. It is Tuesday the 12th of May 2020 not just any day, it is the birthday of Dame Jenny Murray who is 70 today. Happy birthday Jenny glad you got the flowers, we all chipped in yes, even me. I hope you have

a lovely day with Butch and Madge and Frida and everything goes well for you and Jenny is back on Women's Hour on Thursday morning. Happy birthday to you. Now the email corner, we'll have a bit of email corner now. This is from Claire,

referring to something that occurred on yesterday's programme. You had somebody email in saying that her school was refusing to contact her year six child. And that's true. I did read that comment out.

I can't speak for other settings, says Claire, but I do know that schools are having to be very careful in terms of safeguarding both children and staff and sometimes speaking one-on-one with a child just isn't appropriate. What I do know is that my colleagues and I who are supporting children in school are also phoning parents and emailing them and uploading videos of themselves with messages and reading books for

their classes and uploading home learning. So thanks for that, Claire. I appreciate that. And this is another one on the same subject from Gemma. I'm a primary school teacher in Oxford. We are ringing every child in our class every week. For me, it has been a really nice way to get to know both the children and their families better. Life at school is usually so frantic, it can be hard to find the space for one-to-one conversations. As well as vital safeguarding information, they now know more about my life and I know more about theirs.

I'd encourage every school to do it if they can. So that is from Gemma. Thank you very much for that. Anna Jones, the vegetarian cook and writer, was on the programme yesterday. She gave us a recipe for a quick and tasty flatbread lunch. You can find that on the website. Just go to bbc.co.uk slash womanshour

and click on yesterday's programme, then on read more. I know a couple of you were struggling with getting the recipe, but that's what you do. Go to the programme page for yesterday and then click on read more now we're going to talk i think to the shadow chancellor she's able to join us annalise dodds fresh out of a shadow cabinet meeting good morning to you how are you good morning i'm very good thank you i hope you're well and listeners also yeah i think well i'm doing fine thank you very much for asking and as far as I know, the broad spectrum of the audience is well, it's look, let's let's be clear about this. It's a challenging time for absolutely everybody.

I don't know wherever you are, whatever you're up to. This is tough at the moment, no doubt about it. How are you in terms of the back to work message from tomorrow? What are you thinking? Well, I think there has been, it's fair to say, quite a bit of confusion around exactly what the arrangements are for people returning to work. And obviously, you know, as the Labour Party, we're trying to be a constructive opposition, trying to work with government to get those problems ironed out. I think there were many concerns, for example, from people who are shielding, not necessarily those who are extremely vulnerable, but for example, pregnant women.

Initially, it wasn't really clear what the guidance was. We got a bit more last night. It sounds like employers will be required to make arrangements for people in those categories. Obviously, I really hope that they will do so. I'm sure good employers will. But, you know, we really need to make sure that everybody's protected. Big, big question still, though, I think for those with caring responsibilities, with children, because people are being told that they should go physically into work if they can't work from home. That message was set out kind of loud and clear, really, by the Prime Minister on Sunday. But, of course, very, very large numbers of people aren't able to send their children to school or to nursery

because they're not actually key workers. So big questions. Let's tackle that question then. Many of our listeners will be extremely keen to get back to work for a multitude of reasons, not least economic. What should they do if they are not indeed a key worker and therefore their children are not entitled to education? Well, I think that's a very difficult question.

I feel that the government needs to provide clear guidance to employers actually around that question. I absolutely agree with you. The vast, vast majority of people are desperate to get back to work. I think there's been some kind of unfortunate messaging around us suggesting that people don't want to go back. I think people really do want to go back if they can do so safely, you know, for them and for society. But we need to know what the situation is going to be about these groups of people. I think the Prime Minister yesterday suggested, well, you know, hopefully employers will be reasonable about this.

And I don't mean to be officious, but, you know, to be honest, unless it's actually written on a bit of paper, parents often won't be able to challenge a situation, you know, if their employer is saying, well, look, I know it's difficult for you, but you've just got to deal with this. It's not my problem, it's yours. Well, let's be honest about it.

Employers are variable as a collective collective they are not all wonderful they're not all terribly good at reacting to individual situations what do you do well well that's right and you know i think it's it's very hard actually for many of the good employers i mean they've got a bit more clarity now about what they're meant to do um But unfortunately, we do know that in many other situations, as you are loose with this, unfortunately, and that's going to really severely impact potentially quite large numbers of people. So we need that clarity. And you don't feel you've had sufficient clarity right now? Well, I don't think we do feel that.

And we've been going through all the documents that have been produced. Obviously, on Sunday night, we had the message from the prime minister. Then we had a document which came out in the middle of the day yesterday. We then had additional guidelines last night for different sectors. And while, as mentioned, one area we were really concerned about was people with health vulnerabilities, and there was a bit of coverage of that, we don't have that clarity for those with caring responsibilities. And we do really need that, you know, just as you were saying, people want to be getting back to work. It's not about people

not wanting to do it, if it's safe. It's about knowing what the precise situation is and how they can do this kind of safely, how employers can facilitate it. Can I ask you about your own? You have a six year old, don't you? And I know a younger child as well. Would you send your six year old back to school on June the 1st if that comes to pass? I mean, I have to say that, you know, the local school that my son goes to has been doing an incredible job. I'm sure that they would follow any guidance that is provided for them. I think, you know, one of our major concerns is that we haven't actually had the publication of scientific evidence that might be lying under some of these decisions. Obviously, we've been pushing government on this. If the evidence suggests that there isn't a risk from that

to the families of these children or to teachers, etc., then that may well be the right decision. But we don't have that yet. And I know that many of the teaching unions are quite concerned about this. Obviously, I'm concerned. I have to interrupt. You don't sound terribly certain

that at the moment, you would be keen to send your six year old back to school. And that's not a criticism. I'm just genuinely interested in how you're feeling about it as a parent, nevermind a politician. I mean, I suppose as a, as a parent, I mean, I, I'm kind of one of the lucky ones to the extent that I'm in relatively good health. You know, as always, my concern would be about the impact on vulnerable groups, you know, particularly those working closely with the children, but also parents of children who might then have a knock-on impact on them. You know, people who've got kind of severe asthma, diabetes, that kind of thing, where we know that there's an increased risk already.

And I think we've been saying, and obviously our Shadow Secretary of State for Education, also Keir, as the leader of the Labour Party, have been saying that we need to see the evidence underlying this. I think that's important, actually. So everyone's got confidence in the new approach, you know, whatever situation they're in. We do live in extraordinary times and I know you've already said that you are trying to be a constructive opposition. What do you do when a Conservative government is spending public money like it's going out of fashion? Where is the space for the Labour Party to fill? Well, of course, that expenditure has got to be directed to the right places. And, you know, hopefully we're going to be having a discussion later on today about the future of some of those support packages. Actually, it makes sense to be spending in a targeted way now, if you can keep

people in employment, if you can stop people from falling into unemployment. And sorry, it's an obvious point, but that really does save money in the long run. Once people fall out of a job, it's much, much harder to be supporting them into the future. It has a long-term impact on their employment prospects. That has a long-term impact on tax revenue. So it's bad for the government coffers in the long run if we don't have that targeted spending now. So obviously we support that. And that's why it's so important to get people back to work, isn't it? Well, but of course we know that if we don't have the proper systems in place, if we don't have systems that people have confidence in

and also the test, track and trace technology there, we could potentially risk having another wave of this awful disease. And, you know, if we have a kind of cycling in and out of lockdown, that could be very damaging economically in the long run, because it would mean obviously, kind of in the long run, a reduction in demand, people changing their consumption patterns very radically. You know, whereas it might be possible for some businesses to weather this, even in the hospitality sector, if it goes on for a few months, if we see a cycling occurring, then that is really going to get very hard. And we'll see very, very large

numbers of businesses, even more going bust. So we've got to get this right. You know, it's good we've got some more guidelines and some more detail, but on some of those critical questions, we don't have yet the clarity that is really needed. I just want to ask you about key workers, the real key workers. It's the easiest thing in the world, quite frankly, for me to go out on my step on a Thursday night and clap. What are you going to do to protect those workers who are really, really vulnerable to COVID-19? We should say that actually they are more likely to be male than female, but the female workers most at risk are people in relatively low paid jobs like hairdressing and indeed, of course, the care sector. How can the Labour Party ensure they are properly rewarded in the years ahead?

Well, I think there are two aspects to this. First of all, we really need to make sure that those workers have access to the supplies that are desperately needed, both in terms of protective equipment and also in terms, of course, of that testing capacity. We're not there yet. Clearly, we've been pushing on this for many weeks, not least around the social care sector.

We really shouldn't have a situation where footballers are being tested routinely in Germany and we don't have our social care workers being able to access tests for the residents that they're living with. This should not be the situation we're facing

in the UK. Obviously we've set out a number of proposals to try and deal with that. We're trying to encourage government to take them up as quickly as possible. We need to get that sorted out. And you mentioned clarity. I really want to interrupt just if you don't mind, because we're running out of time, Annalise. But a listener is asking, and I don't blame her,

she didn't feel that you'd answer the question about whether or not you would send your child to school. Would you or would you not, in the current situation, armed with the information you have right now, send your six-year-old to school on the 1st of June? Well, I would be more than happy to send my own child to school if I knew that by doing so, I would not be potentially harming others. That's the critical issue for me. And we don't have that evidence, I feel, currently. Okay, so currently it's a no? Well, I don't feel that I have that evidence now. If government was able to provide that,

particularly to publish the scientific information underlying its decisions, we could be in a different situation. But as I say, it's not really about my family. It's about whether we're spreading this disease more broadly. And we don't have that evidence in front of us now. Thank you very much for your time. I know it's busy for everybody at the moment, particularly spreading this disease more broadly. And we don't have that evidence in front of us now. Thank you very much for your time. I know it's busy for everybody at the moment, particularly somebody in your position. That's the Shadow Chancellor, Anneliese Dodds,

who's also the Labour MP, of course, for Oxford East. Let's go to Kate in Cirencester, who's going to do our Woman's Hour Coronavirus Diary for the day. Kate, tell us about yourself. I know you're a counsellor. You're doing a lot of work on Zoom right now. You've got four children. You're a single parent. Tell us about the children. What ages are they? I've got a 22-year-old who's busy doing his finals up in York and a lovely 20-year-old. And then I've got twins who at the start of this were 12 and then they turned 13 in the middle of this lockdown. And I wondered, you I wondered what that was about, having teens in a lockdown.

And, well, you've discovered what it's like. What's interesting is obviously we can make all sorts of sweeping generalisations about biological sex and differences in behaviour. We're not going to do that, but I will allow you to tell us about your own personal experience. You've done the teen years with your sons. Now you're embarking on it with your twin daughters do you notice any differences already well the main difference was I was at home with my boys so I was I was very much an at-home mum and newly on my own I've had to start working and going out and I was actually really feeling

before this I was missing out on seeing my daughters because I was often counselling into the evening when clients could get to me and coming home and the girls very very beautifully had done their own supper and and I was really missing and so when lockdown came I was suddenly at home um and one of the things that they had found was that the that I was they wanted me me to cook again and to find some sort of routine that meant that we could sit together for meals. So one of the things we've done is renegotiate mum being back in the house. But of course, they're seeing me being therapist because I've got my Zoom, which is a minefield for people who didn't know about it before. Wherever it was, we were down um and being mum and it and you were talking earlier about the boundaries about how you do

both within the same confines of the space so what what we allocated was that while i was working um the girls were on their own media um platforms and doing their work with their schools and i have to say the school was really supportive in giving them project work and things that they could get along with. So they've done some really deep learning while they've been at home. But, you know, I'm the one behind the scenes trying to work out how to use the media. So I said to them, look, I'm online. I've got a client.

It needs to be confidential. I need a space where I can work so that people feel that you know the space is confidential but um they they would walk along the corridor not not particularly wanting to listen but zoom i realized picks up the sound of the loo flushing so we had we had to negotiate the fact that they had to go downstairs i know that's basic stuff but it's even the's even what they can do within the house. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, we've even got flushing toilets here at Broadcasting House. People do go to the facilities. It does happen.

It's just a plain fact of life. The teenage girls, I know that I remember finding my daughter, I mean, what does it matter what I think, but relatively biddable at about 11 or 12. And then things do change and they become somewhat judgmental, quite overnight but it it does it does seem to spring on you what's been your experience well i would i would say exactly that that we we found a way of going for a walk but they wouldn't come for a walk together with me because there was a whole sort of rivalry going on so i allocated to take one on a walk and then we'd have our time and then the other one on a walk I've been on lovely walks where without the agenda of having to take them anywhere or go and collect

them or just being you know hands-on mum we've had the time to really talk about what's happening what they're feeling and actually I've got in touch with my 12 year old self because I've actually told them stories of what I did when I was 12 and they're you know I've probably been a little bit indiscreet because they now know how what a dreadful teen I was but I probably wouldn't have told them all of that had we you know been in the busyness so there's been um walks where we've got really connected and we've been spent time together talking or there's been something that's gone on in the house and someone hasn't lent someone a little highlighter pen for their project and we've got meltdown. And I've had complete stony silence for an hour and a half because that's just, you know, that's just how it is.

And all those teams come at you with both. They're either, you know, chitty-chitty-chatty or you get nothing. But I still wanted to be the parent who said, look, it's your turn for a walk. You're not talking to me, but let's go anyway. And we went. So, you know, you have to be, you know, I've realised that they want to talk and they want you to be their friend, but they want you to stay in being the parent. Yes. I guess it's about being available to them at a time that suits them, not necessarily you. But good luck with it. Only another six or seven years to go. And keep in touch with us, Kate. Thank you very much for coming on this morning.

That's Kate. Thank you, Jane. That was Kate with our Coronavirus Woman's Hour Diary for today. Anne on Twitter says, don't keep regurgitating. teenagers a horrible cliche they are managing a critical development stage and we don't help by stereotyping and judging them back they're at a complex and fascinating point in their lives and i don't disagree on any level it's just that sometimes living living with that complex and fascinating point in somebody else's life can be quite trying that's that's all I'll say about that. But absolutely, they are all so wonderful. They're so wonderful in so many ways.

Now, let's bring in some of your thoughts via email on today's programme. Boundaries was one of the conversations we had today, all that blurring between work and home that's going on at the moment, if indeed you are fortunate enough to be able to do any sort of work from home. Emma says, I am working from home with a three-year-old whilst my partner is a key worker and he's working up to 14-hour shifts. I'm really lucky that I have understanding managers, but my mental health has suffered as it's a real struggle to keep him entertained and also to manage work in my job. I see others on social media showing pictures of themselves

with their children doing lots of learning, whilst my little boy is just watching something on his tablet. Emma, don't be hard on yourself. I'm sure everybody's children are watching things on their tablets, if they're fortunate enough to have one to hand. Elaine says my daughter-in-law has her own business while she's trying to run which she's trying to run from home with major deadlines coming up my son has been furloughed with uncertainty about the future of his job and my granddaughter is autistic with major emotional problems despite social service input holding all

this together it stinks whether you're an integrator or a segmentator. Day by day, hour by hour seems the only way, whatever that means. Elaine, yes, I take your word for that. It must be very tough for your daughter-in-law and your son at the moment. Nadine on email, I'm a single parent trying to continue working in a full-time role with two children. They are seven and 11. I do have respite every other week when they go to their dad, but when they're with me, it is an absolutely impossible task. I feel like I'm failing on all fronts more than ever before.

Motherhood is always a juggling act, but single motherhood in lockdown is akin to juggling in a tornado, standing on one leg with new balls being thrown in all the time. That is brilliant, Nadine. I couldn't really couldn't put it any better myself. I think the children are okay, but I do worry about my own mental health if I have to carry on doing this much longer. Women's Hour does play a part in keeping me sane during this time. And thank you, Nadine, best wishes to you. Keep on going if you possibly can, but I don't think for one minute that it's easy.

As I always say, if you need Woman's Hour to keep you sane, you're in a difficult place. Although, no, I mean, let's be fair. Woman's Hour is also playing a part in keeping me sane-ish during the course of this time. But as I've mentioned before before i am a single parent myself i've got some idea of what it's like i mean my children are older and i have a different sort of job but it's not it god knows it's it's a tough one for everybody at the moment now um to the

interview with annalise dodds who is the shadow chancellor labour mp of course uh vanessa of course she's not going to answer the question. She's a politician. They go to special schools to learn politician speak. That's the view of Vanessa on Annalise's, I think it's fair to say, reluctance to answer the question about whether or not she would send her six-year-old to school. To be fair, I think she did make it clear that she just wasn't certain

that she felt able to make a decision on that at the moment with the information she has to hand. Penny, thank you for trying to press the shadow chancellor to at least answer one question. She failed to do that and then continues to criticise the government while offering no plans or ideas or science at all. That's the view of Penny. There's always another side. And Julie says, whilst I understand listeners being interested in whether or not Annalise would be happy to send her child to school in June, surely she would need to talk about this with the child's father. I'm disappointed that Woman's Hour is reinforcing the message that anything to do with children is

the mother's responsibility. Would a man be asked this question? Well, there's another email on those lines. Too much time placed upon the shadow chancellor and whether or not she'd send her six-year-old to school. School buildings are varied and many, as are family situations. The future of Britain's economy should have been explored, as dare I say it would have been, if the shadow chancellor had been a man. That from Hillary. Can I just say, if the shadow chancellor had been a man and that from Hillary can I just say if the shadow chancellor had been a man first of all I suppose it's unlikely if I'm honest that they've been on Woman's

Hour today it's possible and I would have asked the same question I would absolutely emphatically have asked the shadow chancellor whatever their biological sex how they were feeling right now if they had a six-year-old and we know that six-year-olds are included in that plan. And it's only a sketchy plan at this stage to possibly send reception and year one back to school on June the 1st in England. I can honestly say I would have asked a man to. And this is from Jane about the interview with the author of Where the Crawdads Sing, Delia Owens. Jane, says another Jane, am I alone in finding Delia self-congratulatory and solipsistic?

I never know how to say this. Solipsistic. Thank you, producer Sarah. Solipsistic in her interview today. A lot of I did, I changed, I thought. I don't know whether you're alone in thinking that, Jane, but in fairness, we were asking her on because she's a hugely successful author.

I think she's allowed to own her success because, after all, that's what I was asking her about. So not sure I entirely agree with that, but thank you. And another email on the subject of Where the Clawdads Sing from Erica. I really enjoyed hearing from the author today. This is what I love about emails. For every one hand, you've got another hand.

And on this programme, we try to do both hands justice. Hello, Jane, says Erica. Wonderful to hear Delia today. Thank you very much for having her on. I'm not sure I personally invited her on, but I was delighted to hear from her. I wasn't too far into the book, says Erica, and I was loving it when I dropped my Kindle in the bath last night. Oh, this is why I have never had a Kindle. I just don't trust them because what if you do drop the thing in the bath?

Other e-readers are available, I've been told to say also I've given up reading in the bath because I obviously need my glasses now and they steam up and what's the point it's one of those little pleasures reading in the bath that's just gone from my life probably forever anyway back to Erica

after lots of patting dry and blowing and shaking it and carefully enclosing it in a sleeping bag of rice. It's no good. No, my Kindle is gone. I am gussied. I will have to try and get the book to carry on my essential reading. Erica, treat yourself. Buy a copy of the book and finish it in appropriate Luddite fashion. She also goes on to say that she was going to see me and Fee Glover. Who?

In a show in July, but now that's been cancelled. Oh, you're probably fortunate to have missed out on that experience, Erica. We're going to try and reschedule all that and make sure we can do it because it would have been brilliant. Erica, thank you very much for contacting the programme. We're back tomorrow. And amongst other things, tomorrow we're talking about how midwives are working all over the world in the current situation. Thanks to everybody who took part today. Thanks to you for listening. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.