Woman's Hour - Women and Conservation, Linda Hazzard and her fasting cure, Women's attitudes to Brexit

Episode Date: October 21, 2019

We explore what women think about Brexit and how it might affect the way they vote in another possible referendum and in an expected general election.Near the beginning of the 20th century 'Dr' Linda Hazzard ran a sanatorium in Washington state, USA where she encouraged her patients to fast for months on end. Some of her patients sang her praises but many died of starvation under her care. Now the subject of a play, we explore her curious life and her search for a 'perfect cure'.Many of the organisations in charge of protecting the UK countryside are led by women. A coincidence or are women bringing anything different to the table?There is a new exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery in London, Pre-Raphaelite Sisters. The images of the Pre-Raphaelite painting - all sumptuous locks and languid poses - might be what we think of but their stories as artists, managers and artistic partners have been erased. Today we consider Joanna Boyce Well.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Dr Michelle Harrison Interviewed guest: Dr Rosie Shorrocks Interviewed guest: Kate Valentine Interviewed guest: Kate Barton Interviewed guest: Marian Spain Interviewed guest: Beccy Speight Interviewed guest: Minette Batters Interviewed guest: Dr Jan Marsh Interviewed guest: Dr Alison Smith Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hi, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Today, why are there so many women CEOs, women effectively in charge of environmental groups? A whole range we're featuring today, the NFU, Natural England and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds all have women at the very top.

Why is that? And is this a world that actually invites women at the very top of organisations? We'll also discuss fasting today. It's quite a topical thing because it is now one of those health things that people seem to be really into. But it's not new remotely. And today we'll discuss a so-called doctor, Linda Hazard, who encouraged her patients to fast in the early part of the 20th century. It has to be said, it didn't always end well. And she's now the subject of a new play. And we've got more on the pre-Raphaelite sisters. Today, we focus on the artist Joanna Boyce-Wells. That's all later in this programme. First of all, the journalist and writer Deborah Orr died at the weekend and she was just 57.

There have been many tributes to her from friends and colleagues, referencing her kindness, her generosity and her gift for friendship. As a writer, you might well know that she employed acerbic, withering brilliance to tremendous effect. She was also a really good broadcaster and a great guest to have on Woman's Hour. And we've picked this little bit of her, which I think illustrates her personality fantastically. It was from a programme back in 2012, and she was a guest in an item talking about that year's ASDA Christmas ad, which you might well recall there was a lot of controversy about this. It featured a very harassed woman, mother, doing everything in her power to achieve the so-called perfect family Christmas. Meanwhile, the rest of

the clan contributed little or nothing. I asked Deborah if the ads were an irritant or a reflection of grim reality. They certainly don't reflect the reality of my life. I mean Deborah if the ads were an irritant or reflection of grim reality. They certainly don't reflect the reality of my life. I mean, the word Christmas has only just passed my lips for the first time a few seconds ago. I haven't thought about Christmas at all. I believe in delegating. If people aren't pulling their weight, you say, you go and get the tree, make sure it doesn't hit the ceiling, you get the shopping, who's going to cook Christmas lunch? You don't sort of, you know, take it all on board.

I think the most annoying, you know, and do it all yourself, I think the most annoying thing about these adverts is that they sort of suggest that actually if you are getting other members of your family to contribute to their own good times, then you're not being a proper mother and you're not being a proper Asda shopper, you know, and you're not being a proper consumer and you're not being a proper member of society.

So a proper woman, mother, should put herself through something close to hell for the weeks preceding Christmas then? Well, that's the sort of, you know, brainwashing idea that seems to be in the advert. Of course you shouldn't. Of course, you know, if other members of the family are being lazy about preparing for the holiday,

you just say to them, you know, do this. A tweet here from Ian who says, that ad does not reflect reality in our house. I will be doing all the cooking as usual. These ads are an insult to men. Deborah, do you feel men's pain here? Because there are some men who really do pull their weight. Yes, I do actually.

I do think that if things were the other way around and Christmas was being portrayed as something that men did while women sat around hindering them by making wrong choices, everybody would be up in arms. The thing about it is that women will sort of insist on doing all of this stuff and then complain that it's being landed on them. And what these adverts say is that's the right thing to do. The right thing to do is insist on doing all of this stuff and then sort of be resentful you know, that nobody appreciates you

and the other thing about it is at the very very end when she looks into the room and sees the family happy, then she's happy as well but the thing is, I've done some really really sloppy Christmas in my time I haven't sent Christmas cards for 15 years I like putting up the tree

I do that, I seldom do the dinner although I will order the food online from Waitrose, Asda. Ha ha. But, you know, when I look in in the afternoon after, you know, Christmases that I've worked hard on, Christmases I've done nothing on, I look in and I'll tell you what, the ones where I've done hardly anything, everybody's a lot happier because I'm not really stressed and thinking, why aren't they appreci appreciating me I'm just totally mellow and relaxed and so is everybody else and the best Christmases are the ones where somebody isn't knocking their pan in doing stuff for everybody else but everybody is doing a similar amount and coming together and being relaxed and having a

good time. I mean Deborah Orr who was on Woman's Hour at that time in 2012, I should say, there is a lot of a great deal of buzz and anticipation around her memoir, Motherwell, which sadly she didn't live long enough to see published. But it is coming out in the new year. And so many people I know are saying how fantastic that memoir is. So that's Motherwell out in January. And perhaps in tribute to Deborah Orr, we should all aim for a sloppy Christmas this time round. I know it's early in the year to be even talking about it, but I think Deborah would probably appreciate the idiocy of us discussing Christmas on October the 21st, but

our sympathy to her family and her many, many friends. Now, it's another big Brexit week and you are right, you have heard that before, and I dare I say, I think you might hear it again, actually. Last week saw the big drama of the EU Council Summit in Brussels, the much heralded Saturday sitting, the Letwin Amendment, which meant the day, in we are where we are again. And the Prime Minister wants MPs to give a clear yes or a no to his deal in a vote today, if the Speaker allows it. So we thought we'd reflect this morning on how women think about Brexit and how women are thinking about the way they might vote in another possible referendum and in another likely,

highly likely, general election in the very near future. Dr Michelle Harrison is here, Global CEO of Kantar Public, and we can talk too to Dr Rosie Horrocks, who's a lecturer in politics at the University of Manchester. She's in our studio in Salford. She specialises in gender and politics. Rosie, Michelle, good morning to you both. Morning. Morning. Let's start with you, Michelle, then. How have you been attempting to measure women's attitudes to Brexit? Oh, well, at Kantar, we do a monthly poll where we look at attitudes towards Brexit,

attitudes towards a variety of different public policy priorities in general. And we can always cut that by male and female and other demographic divides. And the remarkable thing, actually, since 2016, is how views haven't really changed too much at all. And there is a definite gender split? Right. So when it comes to attitudes to Brexit, views haven't changed too much. It's pretty much where it was with, you know, 38-37. If there was a referendum tomorrow, it would be too close to call.

The difference between men and women is actually how they answer wider sets of questions that influence those views. So men and women show some differences in terms of their public policy priorities. This has been consistent for many years. Women are far more likely to say that the most important thing for government to focus on is health care or access to public services. Men are more likely to focus on the most important thing for government to focus on is healthcare or access to public services. Men are more likely to focus on the economy. And actually, for both groups,

it's a very low focus on the desire that government should spend time on EU renegotiation. A low focus? 11% of British women last month said that that should be the government's top priority. 51% said health care. For all the talk, and there was talk back in 2017 as well, that this was going to be a Brexit election.

The truth is politicians cannot tell the electorate what the election is going to be about, can they? Well, I think we consistently have views as to what's most important for society overall, but also for the household. And another difference between men and women is how they feel about what we talk about the kitchen table economy. So women are more pessimistic about the future in terms of how things will work in their own household. They have less optimism for how things will be post Brexit. Men tend to be more gung ho about Brexit overall and about the outcomes

for them. Right, Rosie Shorrocks, forgive me I got your name wrong at the beginning there, I apologise. What do you think about what Michelle said there? Yeah, I think that's true and I think that's borne out in a lot of the polls and surveys that we see. There aren't huge differences between men and women in terms of supporting leave or remain, but there are differences, as Michelle says, in terms of wider questions. So women are in particular much more concerned about the prospect of no deal in comparison to men. They're much more worried about that and less relaxed about having no deal. And they're also just less likely to be

convinced about the positives of a no deal Brexit and Brexit in general. Right. What do some women fear then about the possibility of a no deal? Yeah, I think if we think about the things that we're told might happen as a result of no deal, you know, food shortages, potentially things to do with the availability of medication, extra expenses. And if we think that women are particularly concerned about things like healthcare and particularly pessimistic about their kind of financial situation, these are things that we might expect to be particularly concerning for women. I wonder, though, why men aren't concerned about these things. That's not what we're saying,

or not what you're saying or what not what you're saying is it exactly? No no and of course men are concerned about those things as well it's just on average women are more concerned. There wasn't thought to be a big difference in how women and men voted in the referendum but I gather there was a substantial difference between older women and younger women. Can you explain more about that, Rosie? Yeah, so there is some evidence that in the referendum, younger women were particularly likely to vote for Remain, and even more so than younger men. And that is something that we still do see to some extent in the polls. So younger women are still the most kind of anti-Brexit, anti-no deal, pro-Remain group. And what about their potential voting intentions in a general election? Yeah, I think that's really interesting because if we look at voting intention polls at the moment,

there are really high levels of uncertainty amongst women about who they would like to vote for. So 20 to 25% of women tend to say that they don't know who they would vote for in an upcoming general election. There does seem to be a slight pro-Labour, anti-conservative bent to the women's vote at the moment. Has that been changed by the election of Boris Johnson or was that true when Theresa May was in charge as well? It was true before the election of Boris Johnson or was that true when Theresa May was in charge as well? It was true

before the election of Boris Johnson but it is also true that women are less keen on Boris Johnson than men are. And Michelle don't know women will say they don't know I was going to say we know this but actually we do know this don't we? We do yes it's something we see not just in the UK when it comes to political polling, but across Europe. And if you think about the original referendum, we went into that the week before with our poll showing 19% of women didn't know how they vote and 10% of men said they didn't know. And that made all the difference when it came to forecasting. We've got exactly the same issue now. So actually, this is an underexplored area of political research. What is it that allows women to feel more comfortable saying that they don't know compared to men? Comfortable? Are they just more likely to be honest?

Or it may just be they genuinely have less interest in the subject. The issue is we don't know. I said that they honestly, I mean, I'm actually, I've been paid to be a fence sitter for many decades, people would say, but actually, genuinely, I often don't know. And I think that there may be something about women's willingness to talk about the nuances or to not feel obliged to take a view. And we see also they're much more moderate when it comes to asking whether or not people are very positive about how the

negotiations are going or very negative again women will express a more moderate viewpoint. Now Rosie you were laughing there about the don't know business what do you want to say about that? Yeah I mean I think it's again really interesting I think on the one hand we do know that women are a little bit less interested in what's going on in national politics. They have less leisure time. This allows them to kind of spend less time gathering information about this. But I think there is also an element here of men are more willing to give an opinion, even if actually they might be just as unsure as women. Right. Even if it's ill-informed, they're still happy to give it.

Well, not necessarily informed, but... That's a generalisation. Even if they're unsure, yeah. Just very, very briefly, Michelle, is there any point, as far as you can gather, in political parties targeting women as a group? Well, of course, because women do express a real focus on issues to do with public policy.

So when we talk about them saying they're more willing to not know about the very specific political deal on the table. They are much, much more concerned about the implications for their own household economy. So reaching women, bringing them into that conversation and directly talking to them about the consequences of what's going on is, of course, really important. Michelle, thank you very much. Rosie, thank you as well. Thank you. We're displeased at least one listener who says it's some made up drivel, all this nonsense about Brexit you can't generalise.

Well, I mean, I did say that it's very difficult to generalise, but there is research genuinely, isn't there, Michelle, to say that women and men think differently. There's absolutely nothing made up on this. All they need to do is download the latest Cantar Brexit report. There we go. Let me put that to that listener who tweeted. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now, fasting is back in the news, but it's never actually gone away. It's quite big in the contemporary world of well-being just now, but it isn't new. You'll know, I'm sure, that it's

long been part of religious culture and some medical worlds as well. And at the very beginning of the 20th century, an American woman, a supposed doctor, Linda Hazard, ran a sanatorium in Washington state where she encouraged her patients to fast, in some cases for months on end. Now, some of her patients did well and sang her praises. Others, though, died. She is now at the subject of a play called Fast, written by Kate Barton, directed by Kate Valentine. And they are both with me this morning good to see you both thank you very much um it should be said I tried to fast myself last night having had a big roast dinner at about two o'clock I thought there was no need to eat but at half past nine I found myself footling in the fridge so I don't think I'm designed to be a faster um but it is back in the headlines isn't it Kate this this whole idea

of fasting yes it's everywhere at the moment it moment. You only have to do a very quick search and you can find it on recent newspapers and magazine articles. It's all over the place, isn't it, Kate? Yeah, other Kate it is, isn't it? It is indeed. It's just been in the headlines this week. A certain website that's a well-known actress is head of

is suggesting that we have our leanest livable weight. That's on their website. This is from Goop. We should make clear that this is not Gwyneth Paltrow, who is the aforementioned actress endorsing this. This is in an interview on Goop. I think with an academic from America called Tracy Mann, who believes in this notion of a leanest livable weight.

It doesn't sound good to me, but I'm not an expert. But how did you come across the story of Linda Hazard, Kate? Yeah, I was studying for a master's in Cambridge and I was listening because I've always been interested in history and I was listening to a podcast and her name came up. And at first I wasn't sure about actually using it for my writing, but it was something about her and her name came up. And at first I wasn't sure about actually using it for my writing, but it was something about her. And her face, when I Googled her face, stuck with me.

There's something in her eyes, which is pretty amazing, actually. And I had to close the laptop a few times and not stare at it. And, yeah, she just stuck with me. And I started to research all kinds of things around her. I read some brilliant books on her, lots of newspaper articles. So she was notorious. People discussed her at the time. They did because she'd actually, before the events in our play, there were quite a few cases that were very, shall we say, suspicious that were surrounding Linda Hazard. There was someone that was possibly shot through the head on her property and no one quite knew how that had happened, who'd done it.

She was also in the paper for a bigamy trial with her first husband. So she was already really quite well known to the public. No wonder you wanted to pounce on her and write a play about it. It's an incredible story. Kate Valentine, what about the people who flocked to her clinic? Because they did. Nobody made them go, did they? No, they didn't.

And as you said earlier, a lot of people did well because if you lie down for a couple of weeks, if you've got a stressful life... Tell me about it. Yeah, then a lot of people would feel better. Yeah, but not if they weren't eating. Not if they weren't eating. Well, they had very, very limited diet.

They had asparagus soup was one of her things. And the amazing thing about her, I think, parallels with now is that she was the equivalent of a modern day influencer. So she did book tours. She had she had pamphlets about her sanitarium. She really knew how to play the crowd. So people were enticed into her way of thinking. She was very glamorous. She loved jewellery and fine clothes.

So in our play, which is on at the park, as you suggested, we follow the passage of two young English women, two sisters, who are excited by her methodology and come to her sanitarium. If we were going to be cruel about those two, we'd say they were today's worried well, wouldn't we? Indeed. There isn't actually anything wrong with them, although there wasn't at the start.

No, but they're brave women. They've been travelling across America on their own. The turn of the 20th century was no mean thing. And they're real, yes. And so was the journalist who is the fourth character in the play. He was one of the first African-American journalists of the time in Seattle. Yes, and that's also a really interesting part of the story, isn't it? The sisters, the English sisters, were called Williamson, is that right?

Yeah, that's right. Clare and Dorothea Williamson. Do they have relatives still around, do you know? Actually, do you know? I don't know. It would be interesting. It would be interesting. So Clare and... A long time ago uh dorothea um yeah dora we call her right claire and dora or dorothea williamson who went to america to this sanatorium and

unfortunately one of them didn't come back no and uh no something something did occur at the sanitarium um yes but But one of them did. I won't say which one. One of them did and was definitely in the papers and high-profile discussions about what happened at that sanitarium for a long time after. Yeah, I mean, it is a fascinating story. We should say that there is a feminist heart to this

in the sense that she wasn't a doctor because she couldn't be one is that correct well she was she had some training as an osteopath and some some people say that she had some nursing training as well um but she was very interested in alternative medicine had been you know all her life and some people think perhaps it started in her childhood because she was given a lot of prophylactic medicine when she was a lot younger because she'd been very unwell well no i think uh this local apparently this local doctor thought perhaps he would starve off a little bit of parasites, I think, that she might have had in her system. So he gave her a lot of blue pills. And I think they say that that sort of messed up her, she said

that it sort of messed up her system later. And Kate Valentine, she was, the authorities did catch up with her in the end, at least they did in the States. They did. And that's revealed revealed in our place I'm not going to do a spoiler here that's what happened but certainly towards the end of her life when she died she she tried her own methods and it didn't work and she wrote that she didn't want it to come out that she died of fasting because she thought it wouldn't do much for her cause and her posthumous memory okay right well it didn't well would it do a lot for a cause i don't know and what people you mentioned that people didn't starve um so there was the asparagus broth they were given and anything else they were given

uh sips of orange juice occasionally a lot of massage um which is obviously not a food but yeah massage and various other treatments um the massage was quite an intense massage, shall we say. Where did she get all this from? Well, it's possible she got it from her mentor. She said she trained under a gentleman called E.H. Dewey, another alternative health practitioner. And it's a little bit debatable about whether she actually trained under him or how much she knew him, but she said she did.

Very conveniently, the place where she had been training burnt down. So, yes, so very easy for her to say, goodness, I had all these, I had all this training, but you won't be able to follow it up. But because there was something going on at the time where she was already practicing alternative medicine and the state of Washington asked anyone who was practicing to, you know, to make sure they had a license. And because she was already practicing, she was given a license. So she was able to call herself a doctor, along with lots of other people at the time. So it's a sort of a legal loophole, I suppose, as to why she was able to say that she

was a doctor. Well, it doesn't end well. And her life didn't end that well. I suppose, let's face it, we're all going to die. And she actually didn't die young, did she? No, I told you. Somehow she evaded the authorities up to a point but you need to see the play to get the full story. And there are, of course, still people today who will pay thousands, I gather, to go to establishments

and we won't name any now where you just gnaw on a bit of rotten bread for a fortnight. Bargain. Wouldn't suit me as my foodling in the fridge last night illustrated. Thank you both very much Kate Barton, Kate Valentine and the play is called

Fast, it's on at the Park Theatre in Finsbury Park in North London until November the 9th, a really interesting chunk of social history that one now later on this week we're going to feature the stories of three women whose partners are veterans with PTSD these women

are going to describe what it's like living alongside this, often, in fact, for decades, and how it's impacted their own mental health and their relationships and their confidence. These are really interesting features, these, and you'll hear them on Woman's Hour later in the week. Also, they go on to discuss how they went about getting help for their partners and, indeed, for themselves.

And you might recall the poet Fiona Benson, who was on the programme to mark the autumn equinox with her poetry. She's just won the prestigious £10,000 forward prize for Best Poetry Collection. So we just wanted to mention that achievement. Congratulations to the poet Fiona Benson. Now, you're listening to Woman's Hour, and women do appear to be bucking

the trend for the male CEO in at least one sphere of public life, the environment. So why is this and do they bring something different to the roles? We can talk to Marion Spain who is interim chief executive of the government advisory body Natural England. Welcome to the programme Marion. In our studio in Nottingham Becky Spate who took over pretty recently as the boss of the programme, Marion. In our studio in Nottingham, Becky Spate, who took over pretty recently as the boss of the RSPB. When was that, Becky? About two months ago. Right, so you're just getting into the role now, are you? Yeah, I'm loving it.

OK, and Minette Batters is president of the National Farmers Union. She has a family farm in Wiltshire with cows, sheep and arable. She's in the Salisbury studio. Minette, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Now, we have to start, I'm afraid, with Brexit. Some people will saybury studio. Minette, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Now, we have to start, I'm afraid, with Brexit. Some people will say, you know, well, we're sick to death of it, but it is so important.

For the farming community, you are, I know, anxious to avoid a no-deal Brexit, aren't you? Yes, we are, very much so. So how are you feeling about that this morning? Well, for us, for farmers, it's been about an orderly departure from the eu and agreeing the european relationship before we agree other trade deals across the world so it's a tense time uh right now because no deal remains that the legal default so um we we just have to keep hoping

that sense prevails there is a new deal obviously that is uh transitioning through but i can't tell you enough how important it is to leave in an orderly manner they're so different leaving in an orderly manner having agreed our relationship going into transition to just stepping away and saying actually do you know what this this isn't worth um finalizing now and it puts the whole environment and farming in huge jeopardy. OK, well, I just must also briefly ask about the new deal. It appears to be increased deregulation in terms of food production. Is it true that standards may be threatened by this latest deal?

Yes, absolutely, because it's agreeing the EU relationship first. Now, we keep on hearing we're going to have higher standards of animal welfare. We're not going to drop the regulatory baseline here. But, you know, what will do more damage is if we have imports from other countries that will be illegal for our farmers to produce here. And that will simply put farmers out of business, which will mean they are less capable, obviously, to contribute to the environment when they really want to be able to do so much more to be able to do something that actually works for the uk now so it's it's absolutely mission critical that we get this right yeah i mean i guess some people would say minette there's never been a worse time to be in your job but you others might say well what a fantastic challenge at this time look it's a really exciting time because this is

an opportunity to do something for the uk and be bespoke but it must not be about a race to the bottom about sacrificing environmental protection animal welfare and all our food values we can do this in a way where we are global leaders and that is what i will continue to fight for and let's bring in our other guests marion spain interim chief exec of natural england do you mind just saying exactly what natural england does fight for. And let's bring in our other guest, Marian Spain, Interim Chief Exec of Natural England. Do you mind just saying exactly what Natural England does? It looks after the natural environment. So we're the government conservation body. We look after wildlife, landscape and the access that people need to the natural environment for their health and well-being. Right. And so

you liaise presumably regularly with the likes of the NFU and indeed the RSPB. I do. Becky, Minette and I see a lot of each other. Do you? Well, I'm sorry to bring you together again now. But there are areas of dispute. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to draw attention to the relatively recent row with the RSPB about hen harriers. Becky, can you just tell us what happened there? Yeah, well, this is an ongoing issue, really, which is about the illegal persecution of our birds of prey particularly hen harriers and the close association of that illegal persecution and and grouse moors and it's it's been a long-running issue and the government itself has said that one of the the main drivers for the low population of hen harriers is illegal persecution so it's about how we tackle this and do something about it

and you your approach has been has been criticized hasn't it marion it has i think the first thing to say is we are absolutely with the rspb that persecution of hen harriers is illegal and abhorrent and we want to stop it i think where we differ is what the tactics are for doing that so we're at the moment carrying out an experiment as to whether working with gamekeepers will help remove any feelings they have that they need to kill hen harriers. But the RSP, we don't agree, but we're working through an experiment. And when we have the results, we'll sit down with Becky and talk them through. All right. So I get the impression this is very much a work in progress. Yes. Would it be fair to say, Becky, that you took over as the boss of the RSPB at what was a pretty difficult time for the organisation?

Because you haven't exactly had glowing press over the last couple of years. I think you've had to end your pension scheme. There was a deficit as well at one point, millions of pounds. Yeah. So a lot of work has been done to get us into a better position financially. And I'm delighted to have come in and for that much of that work to have been completed. I think what that enables us to do is to fulfil the role we were set up to do really which is about birds and nature and people and clearly at the moment in terms of the climate crisis we're all facing into and the biodiversity crisis we know that those two things are absolutely intertwined and that a lot of the action we can

take around nature will also deliver for us in terms of tackling climate change so things like addressing peatland for example in the uk is tremendously important for both species but also for climate change yeah just explain for the benefit of the listeners why particularly peatland so peat peat is a huge's a huge carbon store um it sequesters carbon which is obviously one of the things that we need to do to mitigate climate change and at the moment a lot of our peatland we have upland peat and we have downland peat and a lot of it is is basically um in a poor condition and that means that it's not only not taking in more carbon but it's actually releasing carbon into the air so it's exacerbating the problem so it's not only not taking in more carbon, but it's actually releasing carbon into the air, so it's exacerbating the problem.

So it's making things much worse then? Yeah, absolutely. I confess I knew absolutely nothing about that. Where are these peatlands that we need to be so concerned about? Are they everywhere? So we have important upland peatland, places like the Pennines, for example, a lot of Scotland, and then we have important lowland peat as well

in places like East Anglia for example and all those areas are important but it's also about our natural environment so trees, salt marshes, all of these are important carbon stores and indeed the soil on our farms you know so Minette will have something to say about that but these are all really vital carbon stores and if we can get them into a better condition for nature and for climate change then it's a win-win minette what would you say well i absolutely agree with with becky and it's why we set out at the beginning of the year that we said you know british agriculture was up for actually you know beating off the government's challenge to achieve net zero and we would do it with a willing government by 2040 i think you know we have to face the fact that we can do these things differently.

Agriculture is unique. It's both a source of emissions and it's a sink. So it can do something about it, which other industries can't. New technology, innovation, all these things are going to drive change. And actually, we have many new tools becoming available to us. So I think it's an exciting time. There's a clear expectation from the British public that we need to do more. We need to be able to produce climate friendly food and we need to be able to meet the challenges of nature, of biodiversity. And of course, 72 percent of the UK is farmland. So farmers are at the forefront of all of this. And the farmers that I represent are really up for this challenge they really want to see change they want to drive change themselves.

Marion a lot of our listeners will want to believe that women are more conciliatory better at compromise and working together but really are they? I suspect women are I think as Manette and Becky have said I think at the moment the reason that the women aren't being so powerful is there is so much to do. That's why it's such an exciting time. We just heard Becky there talk about climate change. I would have said exactly what Becky had said and absolutely agree with Manette about the important role that farmers have. If we get our natural environment right, we have a win-win-win. It's better for climate change, it's better for wildlife, and it's also better for us for our health and well-being and also our economy i mean what we're seeing at the moment we're talking about brexit the other big movement at the moment the other thing that's had people out on the streets over the last few weeks is the

environment so this is an absolutely brilliant time to really make some changes that benefit us in the long term regardless of what happens with brexit but and you really do detect that the public want and are prepared to live with, well, change. We might all have to make compromises in what we eat and how we live. I think the public want that. So again, we're definitely seeing that by people on the street. And again, with everything else that's going on in politics, we're delighted that the government has just introduced a landmark bill

to make changes to our environment, the type of things we're talking about today, but also plastics, waste, pollution. So the environment is definitely on the up. It's a brilliant time for anybody, for any young woman to get into this. Becky, why is it, do you think, that women do appear to have, I mean, I'm not really fond of saying that women are closer to the earth and that kind of thing, but let's go with that as a notion. Do you think there is a possibility?

You can hear the doubt in my voice. Well, I mean, I think it's interesting. I think there is a history of women in the environmental movement. So, you know, take the RSPB, for example, was founded by three women who were kind of fighting against the use of kind of feathers in hats. So it was fashion and feathers in 1889. And that was pre a lot of the headlines around kind of suffragettes. So this was women getting on and fixing things that they could see were wrong with the world. And indeed, one of them, Emily Williamson, there's a move now to actually put a statue up

for her in Didsbury in Manchester. Because, you know, that kind of role of women has been slightly unrecognised, I think, in terms of the conservation movement. And it was only fairly recently that Octavia Hill, for example, who was one of the founders of the National Trust, got a plaque in Westminster Abbey. So that kind of recognition is coming.

And I think, you know, today I've been really delighted to see in the RSPB that it's been a lot of our young women who have absolutely led our involvement in the youth climate strike, for example. So, you know there is a sense in which um women i think are coming to the fore again through the environmental movement and yes it's absolutely true we were talking earlier about attitudes to brexit and i think one of our guests said that perhaps women well i think both our guests agreed that women are more likely to say that they don't know about certain political issues what you absolutely

cannot disagree with marion is that if somebody, for example, wants to take a tree down, you can absolutely depend on the fact that women will be at the forefront of local community-based campaigns for the environment. I think that's right. They're at the front of local campaigns, and as Becky's just given us, they're at the front of the history and the present day. I think one of the other reasons, perhaps, why women particularly understand this, women have perhaps intuitively understood what science now tells us, that the environment is good for our health. We know that visiting a natural environment, having access to green space,

is good for our physical and mental well-being. So perhaps again that role that women have perhaps traditionally played in families of looking after the whole family's health is what leads them to take their children and their husbands and partners out into the countryside. But Minette, of course, you're at the head of the organisation where your members are on the front line. They aren't hugging trees. They're out there doing the do first thing in the morning, last thing at night.

That's the nitty gritty of all this, isn't it? Yes, it is. And of course, women have always been involved in farming for millennia. It's been about small family farms predominantly across the uk which women have been the backbone of and you know i've been looking after we've had a sick calf all weekend i mean we run effectively a national health service uh for our livestock um you know is a 24 7 job um and it's great in my industry to see many more women now getting actively involved in commercial positions showing environmental leadership as as well and really champing telling the story if you

like of how we produce our farms of why people should buy british and that's of course about men and women but i'm just delighted to see that more women and especially more young women coming into agricultural colleges and really really selling that story. Just very briefly is it 50-50 agricultural colleges now? It is actually for vets it's more women going into veterinary colleges and I think in some colleges and universities you'll find a higher proportion of women coming through to study agriculture. Fantastic thank you very much. Minette Batters, who's president of the NFU. You also heard from Becky Spate of the RSPB and Marion Spain, interim chief executive of Natural England. Thank you very much. Now, the exhibition Pre-Raphaelite

Sisters opened at the National Portrait Gallery in London last week, and the images of the women of the Pre-Raphaelite paintings, they are gorgeous, all these sumptuous locks, languid poses. They might be what we first think of, but their stories as artists, managers and artistic partners have been somewhat erased, and we want to start changing that conversation. So Dr Jan Marsh, who curated the exhibition, and Dr Alison Smith,

who curated Tate's Major Burne-Jones exhibition last year, talked to me last week, and you're going to hear a series of conversations about some of these wonderful pre-Raphaelite sisters. Today, we're going to focus on the artist Joanna Boyce-Wells. I asked Jan whether she had been trained. Yes, she was very well trained. She even very boldly, because it was so difficult to get a good training for women in the 1850s and 60s in Britain. She actually went to Paris for a whole season training with one of the leading French painters in order to paint figure painting from nude models which was a very bold and

unusual thing for a young woman to do. So Joanna was one of the more ambitious lasses of her time, really. Did her family approve of this? Do we know? They allowed it. So it was a ladies' class that they went to. And could they only paint women? No, no, no. There were male models. Yes, this was the whole point, because the heroic male model, with all the musculature and so on, was a staple of Victorian painting. This was a time when there was a burgeoning feminist movement, and artists were campaigning for the right to study and draw from the nude model. It wasn't allowed at the Royal Academy School,

so many of them, as Jan was saying, they went off to the continent. They went to Germany or they went to Paris. Why did the Royal Academy School not allow it? It was just tradition. I think it was inbred, untraditioned. Competition, I think. Yes. And maybe they feared that the women would outdo the men.

Right. Joanna was like, you know, the other interesting thing about Joanna is that she came from a well-to-do background. So she did have money behind her and you know a certain amount of parental support which enabled her to have access to this education where someone like Elizabeth Siddle who we looked at earlier on in the week didn't have those opportunities so you compare their figure drawing Elizabeth Siddle is often described as creating boneless figures whereas Joanna's show a real understanding of anatomy and proportion.

So did she sell paintings? Yes, she did. And made money? She exhibited and sold, yes. And so we're still kind of hunting some ways for some of the paintings that we know she executed, but which have vanished from view. Sadly, others of her work were actually lost in the blitz that her family had kept.

If you go to the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash womanshour, you will see the image. Her best-known work, actually, is this painting of Eljiva. Now, Eljiva was an ancient queen? Pre-conquest, from the pre-conquest history, totally forgotten today, time of Alfred the Great and Edward the what's-it-right and this is a very tragic tale which gripped the Victorians because Eljiva was a queen in her own, not exactly in her own right, but quite a powerful figure, who was defeated in battle, and the person who defeated her then had her imprisoned,

disfigured by branding on the face, and eventually murdered. So Elgiva is a wronged woman in a big way, and that's one of the reasons, I think, why Joanna Boyce chose to depict her because, as Alison says, it was a moment of feminist impulse and the women in this circle were very conscious of the oppression they were suffering under. This was discussed at the time, Alison.

This would have been something that people knew about this portrait. Consciously or unconsciously, these women are projecting present-day concerns onto the past. And it's interesting that she's wearing blue. She really, in a sense, reminds people of the Virgin Mary. Well, that's what I thought it was, actually. She looks very sort of unpure.

But you actually look at her expression, it's incredibly subtle. And some people have described this as being a pre-Raphaelite work. And it's pre-Raphaelite in the sense it's medievalising, and there's an interest in psychology. But in other ways, it's too good to be a Pre-Raphaelite painting. Hang on, too good? Why? She had studied in France. She was aware of artists, painters who worked in a more classical manner.

It's very smooth and luminous, and a lot of the particulars you get in Pre-Raphaelite painting have been edited out. So you have to sort of look quite long and hard at her gaze to think, what's she feeling? Is she sulky? Is she grumpy? Or is she inwardly bracing herself for this branding iron, which is about to sort of mark her pure white face?

Well, yeah, I was going to say, if she knew what her fate was... I mean, she seems to be quite calm in the face... No-one had told her. ...of this awful mutilation and torture which is about to descend upon her. So anyone who says the Pre-Raphaelites were just, it was just pretty, there is more going on here. There's a lot going on beneath the surface.

A lot of these subjects are really painful. It's about physical pain and inner torment as well. And Joanna was only 29 when she died. That's right, yes, and she died after the birth of her third son, complications due to the pregnancy. And it was seen at the time as being a tragedy in the art world. Male artists, as well as female artists, mourned her death and said, here's a great artist who's been cut off in her prime.

I'm just really intrigued by the notion that there might be some of her artworks knocking around. I mean, not in my house, unfortunately, but how would you know if you've got one? Did she sign them? Is there a distinctive way? And how much would they be worth? Oh, not a lot. Oh. You burst my balloon there, Jan. After this exhibition, they will be worth a lot more. Well, that's a good point, actually. I think it's really when the works are exposed, people identify an artist with a work with a particular style, then there'll be the recognition, and so the prices will increase. Yeah, I want a good story, Jan.

I want one of our listeners to go up to their mother's attic, find one of these, and make a small fortune. But a lot of them will be in private collections. There are only a few in public museums. So I think more and more will emerge in the fullness of time. I really enjoyed talking to Doctors Alison Smith and Jan Marsh about those fantastic pre-Raphaelite women. And the painting they mentioned there, Study of Fanny Eaton,

is on the Woman's Hour website now. And it's on our Twitter feed as well. And if you want to hear all the items about the pre-Raphaelite sisterhood, you can just listen, of course, via BBC Sounds. They're all up already. And we had an interesting tweet about this. Where is it? It's from Michelle. I've got a small painting of a flower,

which I believe to be by an artist called Eleanor Fortescue Brickdale. I would love to know the history of it. Who could I contact? asked Michelle. Well, you'll be amazed to hear I'm of it. Who could I contact? asked Michelle. Well, you'll be amazed to hear I'm no expert on who you should contact or could contact. But I love the name Eleanor Fortescue Brickdale. So we did have a quick look. And she does sound as though she was a formidable English artist, died in the March of 1945. And she was trained at the Crystal Palace School of Art. She lived much of her career in Holland Park Road in London and she also worked with stained glass.

So she's buried at Brompton Cemetery. So she is definitely someone, if you have a painting which you think is by her, Michelle, I would take it to somebody who purports to be an expert in art because it might be worth something. But then you say that and you think, well, why would take it to somebody who purports to be an expert in art because it might be worth something. But then you say that and you think, well, why would you want to part with something? If it's a thing of beauty that gives you pleasure, hang on to it. But as I say, I'm no expert, so don't take my word for anything. On the subject

of Brexit, here's an email from Emily who says, I was shocked to hear one of your experts on women in politics, Michelle, say without any evidence to back it up that women are less likely to be interested in national politics because they're busy with full schedules. Well, in fairness, Emily, that wasn't exactly what Michelle said, but I sort of understand what you're getting at. Anyway, Emily goes on. What possible good can come from throwing out such loose, unhelpful generalisations? Haven't we all moved beyond the point of women are this or women are that? Women are surely above all things individuals and the battle to be seen as such has been rather a long and painful one and it's still ongoing. It seems deeply problematic to allow through rushed or hurried programme making people who appear as experts to make sweeping statements about what women are or aren't interested in. I'm sure there are very many sexists I know who would be delighted to add fuel to their fire with the idea that women are not really interested in politics at a high level.

Yeah, that really wasn't what Michelle said. I think that it is definitely true, whether you like it or not, that there does appear to be a genuine, backed up gender difference between women and men and their way of thinking. And what is also true is that, I think we all know this from our own conversational experience, if women don't know something, they are more likely for a string of reasons to acknowledge that fact. And men are, how can I put this, rather less likely, or rather keener to share their opinion, regardless of whether they can back it up. Again, I could be corrected here. So have a go at me, you know how to contact Woman's Hour. A woman in northeast

England writes, many women and men are guilty of ignorance and apathy over politics. And this is reflected by their repeating the soundbites and slogans spouted by politicians without any apparent reasoning to support them. How many of them actually take the time and trouble to research what's being proposed before they vote? And yet many claim to be exhausted by the current status of Britain's withdrawal from the European Union. I think many are exhausted by laziness. What an indictment on people's lack of engagement with the issues that will affect their lives for generations. As for just get it done, I rest my case, says that listener who sounds somewhat jaundiced by proceedings.

Cathy says, Re, I don't know. My male partner never says I don't know to anything. I think men in general, yes, she says I know, massive generalisation, want to appear strong and confident. I think they are generally less likely to say I don't know to anything. Again, I acknowledge this is a massive generalisation. Yes, I know what you mean, Cathy.

And I'm also really wary of generalisations. But maybe we should devote, in fact, Michelle and I were talking about this before the programme. Maybe we should devote a whole programme to the whole notion of women not knowing and being prepared to say so. Yeah, we'll think about that. On the subject of conservation, Gillian says it was good to hear from Becky from the RSPB and Marion from Natural England, and indeed Minette Batters from the NFU,

championing women at the forefront here, both nationally and locally. The environment needs nurturing as it nurtures us. And Stephen also enjoyed that discussion. He says it was interesting and positive and good to hear a thoughtful analysis of issues without any posturing. Thank you for that. A rare thing, a listener who enjoyed what they heard. But where would we be without our critics? Keep your thoughts coming. The programme and the podcast, of course, return tomorrow. Hi, I'm Alistair Souk and I want to tell you about The programme and the podcast, of course, return tomorrow. creative minds of our time. We'll be speaking to comedian Steve Martin, writer Roxane Gay,

musician Steve Reich and many, many more. I'll be your guide throughout the series, so join me as I explore one of the greatest collections of modern art in the world. If you'd like to hear more, just search for The Way I See it on BBC Sounds. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.