Woman's Hour - Women and Environmental Activism

Episode Date: March 25, 2019

Smacking children in Wales could be banned after the Welsh Government published a bill removing “reasonable punishment” as a defence. If it’s made law children will get the same protection from physical punishment as adults. Some argue such a move could criminalise ordinary parents. Jane speaks to Julie Morgan, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in the Welsh government. As World Earth Day approaches on April 1st we speak to different generations of women who are environmental activists. Whether it’s taking the decision to march, break the law, or vow not to have children, what made them act?Parent protests against schools in Birmingham and Greater Manchester teaching children about LGBT rights continue. We hear from parents and teachers.Nigerian-Romanian pianist Rebeca Omordia is the artistic director of the first ever African Concert series at The October Gallery in London. It’s a programme of African Art Music, a genre that originated in Ghana and Nigeria and which forms a bridge between Western classical and traditional African music.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Helen Fitzhenry

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and you have downloaded the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday the 25th of March 2019. Today we'll look at women environmental activists and why they feel so passionately about their causes. We'll talk too about the continuing protests in parts of Birmingham and Greater Manchester about teaching LGBTQ rights in primary schools. And you can hear music from Rebecca Amordia, who's a Nigerian-Romanian pianist. First then, it is World Earth Day on the 1st of April,

and we thought we'd take that opportunity to look at generations of women who are or have been environmental activists. And really, the question is, what made them act? Why did they get involved? Why did they feel so passionately about all this? You'll hear in a moment from Blythe Perpino, one of the founders of an organisation called Birthstrike. Gillian Kelly is an anti-fracking protester, amongst many other things. She's now 75.

And Sally Goldsmith is one of the Sheffield Tree protesters. She's 65. I started by asking Blythe about Birthstrike. We're a group of men and women who feel too afraid to have a kid as a result of the predictions of climate breakdown. All right, more from you in a moment. Also with us in our studio in Kendal, Gillian Kelly. Gillian, good morning to you. Good morning. And if you were to describe yourself, how would you do that, Gillian? I would say I'm someone who's come to activism very late in my life. I was 75 on Saturday and really through the influence of my sons and more and more becoming concerned. I was just hearing the previous speaker saying that she was on birth strike.

I think if I was her age, I would be doing the same because my concern for the environment is intense. Well, we'll talk more about what you actually did and why you did it in a moment or two. But also with us on Women's Hour this morning, Sally Goldsmith, who's in Sheffield. And Sally, you joined the protests about what? About the felling of street trees.

We've had 5,500 to 6,000 street trees already felled in Sheffield. And I've got a history, I suppose, of environmental activism over some years. And this was something I felt was very much on my doorstep but also a global issue trees and climate change. Blythe if we can go back to you then it does seem remarkably well perhaps dramatic isn't quite the right adjective but your your decision is it never to have children or is it simply that you don't feel this time is right to even think about it?

Well I have to be careful because I'm speaking for now 250 people who've joined so there are varying opinions within the group. Personally I would love to have a family. I've met a partner I'm desperately in love with and I'd like to have his child um but to me knowing what I know about where we're headed in terms of civilization breakdown I feel completely unsafe and unmanaged um in that in in the process that I would go through to create a child as in you know trying to get a house and create enough finances I feel I can support that child with everything that I'm doing now is just focused on trying to get us all to understand the situation that we're in.

So that's one of the reasons why I can't have a child. But also I'm very afraid for the kind of life that they would live. What do you mean by that? Well, we're headed towards famine, food shortages, our insect decline, the mass displacement of up to about 6 billion people, it's predicted. Caused by climate change, water shortage. Water shortages, flooding, rising sea levels, desertification, plus a whole other range of things that I think a lot of people don't really realise that all these things, they impact on each other.

We're part of one big biosphere and we can't separate out humans from what's happening in the environment and the environment is in effect dying as a result of our actions. But who is that? Is that nodding in agreement? I can hear you. Is that you, Gillian? Yes, it's me. Go on. Yes. Well, I'm thinking that the computer models predicted a certain rate of global warming, but it's going much, much, much faster than that. The trajectory now is that it's very nigh on impossible to stay below 1.5 degrees warming from pre-industrial levels. And beyond that, beyond two degrees, it's out of control.

We can't control it. And the window that we have now, if we have a window, is absolutely minute. And I think probably we're used to thinking that somebody out there will solve it. But actually, governments are not taking the action that they need to take. Tell us about your history of protests. You're 75, aren't you now? Yes, I am. Well, a few years ago, about three years ago, one of my sons, who is an activist really, has been very active. He took part in the occupation of an open-cast coal mine in Wales with a great many other people. It was a huge action. And he told me about it. And he has led a very

interesting life. But he has not made money. He has not established himself in a sort of respectable way. And I find myself thinking, oh, you know, why is he doing this now? He should be through all this now. And then I put the phone down and I thought, this is ridiculous. Of course he should be doing it. We have to do it. It's really urgent and it's wonderful that he's doing it and it's brave. And then that prepared the ground really for me thinking about doing something and I started going down to the fracking site outside Blackpool the exploration site of Quadrilla where incredible women were consistently and courageously opposing fracking. And then came a day, a month, when Reclaim the Power, this grassroots group,

did an action every day of the month in the summer of 2017. And what was your first time there, involved with the protest like? Oh, the first time I was very nervous going to the site. I didn't know, just simple things. Where would it be? Would I find it? Would I be able to park somewhere? What would people be like? I mean, I can at this point hear people shouting, oh, she drove there then. I mean, you take my point, Gillian. Yes, I did drive there. I did drive there. But there were two of us.

A friend came with me and I drove from the Lake District. And it is quite a long way. And when I do go down there or when I have an impulse to go down there, I always consider that. And sometimes I don't go down simply because of the emissions that I'll create. Right. And Sally, I know the tree protests in Sheffield have been in the news, certainly in that city, for many, many years now. How did it all start for you?

Well, I suppose I had a history of some sort of environmental activism since the 80s. It's quite interesting listening about the reasons that the last speaker had got involved. Because I got involved during the 1980s in anti-nuclear demonstrations and was in a street band at that time. And we went down to Greenham, amongst other places, the women from the street band and you know there were women there I didn't live there but I went down several times and the women women there who'd left their families and were indeed talking about things like should we have children in this time

where nuclear yeah the fear was very real wasn't it it was very real and you know fear was very real, wasn't it? It was very real. And, you know, it was very visceral. There were, you know, the films on the television, you know, threads, all those things. People were very, very frightened in terms of. So I suppose I see my activism now in Sheffield as sort of on a sort of continuing line from that. And of course, it's very it seems very local. And at first people were saying oh this is only a local thing i was going to ask you about this i suppose compared to nuclear annihilation and horrific water shortages which are no laughing matter obviously trees seem a bit

parochial well these this is what it's been thrown has been thrown at us by our council i think that you know this is a bit parochial. But in fact, you know, everybody says that one of the ways in which you mitigate climate change is to plant a vast number of trees. Now, Sheffield is a very green city. It's got a vast number of trees. And it's got 17,000, it's got 38,000 street trees, some in lovely leafy suburbs. And the council have already cut down 5,500 of those. And people felt very strongly not only about the beauty of those trees on their streets, but the fact that those trees deliver all sorts of benefits, anti-flooding, biodiversity.

They trap pollution, and they do mitigate the effects of climate change. Of course, we should say that the contractor involved and Sheffield City Council say that these are necessary measures to keep the control of the tree population sorted out. And some of those trees were rotten and were potentially dangerous weren't they? A few of them were indeed and we've never ever opposed those but in fact the trees are not being taken down for the reasons you state they've been taken down because the contract with a private contractor that the council has is about replacing the roads and pavements, which was desperately needed in Sheffield. And so these trees are sometimes in the way of doing that profitably. Can I ask you and Gillian how you both feel about being categorised,

it is quite lazy this, as granny protesters? Oh, yes. I mean, Gillian, it's an old trope, isn't it? It doesn't seem to be going anywhere very fast, this one. It's true. It's true. I don't feel like a granny protester. However, I have to say that in the last four years I have had, rather unexpectedly in a way, three new grandchildren who are very, some of them, one of them, two of them now still very, very small, still infants. And when I look at them, and when I envisage their future and what their futures are likely to be, it breaks my heart. Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because here you are

speaking passionately about your feelings regarding your grandchildren. They are your stake in the future. That is a stake in the future that is a stake in the future that blithe you're thinking of denying yourself yes that's correct and that's that's only really just struck me i think that's is that sad does it make you think well i think one of the things that we need to realize is this is happening now and it's happening um a lot sooner than we realize what's going to happen i a lot of people in birth strike feel very vehemently they need to be campaigning in order to save the kids that our friends are having that our cousins are having and you know every new baby that comes into my life I'm I love deeply and I've you know it breaks my heart but at

the same time got to be realistic about what's going on and you know I'd really encourage everyone the problem with this conversation is that people don't realise, people aren't being informed about how serious and how fast this is happening. We really, we need management from our government to tell us what's going on. And the fact that we're having to come on this programme and speak about it in this way is putting all of the emphasis on us as individuals rather than what needs to happen. The only way we're going to save ourselves is collective action. And the only way we're going to save ourselves is by policy change. And all the information is out there, how we transition, how we do it. It has to happen right now and it has to happen collectively. Otherwise, we'll be divided on this. That's a real issue. Sally, you were out there. The the trees are they still being felled or

has anything changed as a result of your protests? Quite a lot has changed as a result of the protests you know we've had worldwide attention on this but yes quite a lot has changed. So it was worth it? There have yeah there have been talks trees are being saved in combination with us, you know, taking along our own experts. And things are looking more hopeful, although, you know, not over yet. There are still quite a lot of trees in this, a lot of trees in this contract that may go. And I wonder too, Blythe, about in your case, because your statement, if you like, about not having children is, well, it has attracted some criticism, hasn't it? There's been some vile abuse lobbed in your direction. Yeah, I've had to change my Facebook name and yeah, it hit the far right in America. And so you can imagine the kind of responses we've had.

It's very misogynistic and definitely pressing the buttons of the patriarchy there. In what sense? I mean, we've had rape jokes and also people saying that we're such nutters that people wouldn't want to have kids with us or we shouldn't be mothers anyway um and that in a way that that goes to show that you know that the real divide that people people really don't understand that this climate change is coming for everyone it's going to be knocking on everyone's door in the next century and that's whether you're wealthy you know even if you're an oligarch creating your bunker and trying to you know arrange henchmen that can be controlled past the point where money has collapsed you know it's going

to affect you as well so that's what I'm trying to get across here is that it doesn't matter if these people come at me with violent abuse online actually I'm trying to save save them too so I think that gives me a kind of protective protective layer. It's depressing though that I'm sure you agree Gillian that Blythe is faced with this sort of thing. I imagine, though, you probably had a bit of stick yourself back in the day. Well, I don't get much stick, but I do get people glazing over and obviously coming to conclusions about who I am and that I'm a bit off the wall. But I do agree with Blythe that it isn't about the small stuff anymore. It is not about just recycling or just saving a little bit of water or energy. It needs a lead from government, which is absolutely not there at the moment. And that is vital. It's vital. I gave a

talk recently and someone left and said, well, that can't be true. Because if it was true, then everybody would be in emergency mode. There'd be a government of national unity. It would be on the news all the time. And this is the extraordinary thing, that for World War II, every sinew was bent to oppose the enemy. And this is a catastrophe like humanity has never, ever, ever faced before. And it needs double, treble, quadruple the effort even that went into, say, the last war. And nothing is happening. Nothing is happening. We are on the wrong trajectory. The government is making gestures and is still in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry.

Right. Okay. Well, that is certainly the view of Gillian Kelly. You also heard from Sally Goldsmith and Blythe Pepino. And the view of Blythe Pepino, actually, I would say. Thanks. I did just say that. Yeah, I know, but I just wanted to back up Gillian and Sally on that point. Okay. Right. Absolutely. All right. We've got a statement here from Quadrilla, who are obviously the company who are staging the fracking, although I think it has actually, for the moment,

it was exploratory and it has stopped. They say that they have the right to work and it was no less important than the right to protest. We have no issues with people lawfully and peacefully protesting at our shale gas exploration site in Lancashire, but we do expect the same courtesy to be extended to staff, suppliers and local residents who should be afforded the right to work and go about their business unimpeded as well.

Thanks to everybody who took part in that. Really enjoyed that. And you can keep your thoughts coming at BBC Women's out on Twitter. We're also on Instagram as well, of course. Now, we're going to go back briefly to the issue of smacking children in Wales, which could be banned after the Welsh Assembly published a bill removing reasonable punishment as

a possible defence. If it's made law, and it's not entirely certain that will happen quite yet, children will get the same protection from physical punishment as adults and when you put it like that it does make you think a bit doesn't it? Julie Morgan is the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in the Welsh Assembly.

She is a Labour Assembly member, of course. Julie, good morning to you. Good morning. So tell us then, how likely do you think it is to be made law? Oh, I'm very hopeful that it will be made law. We're publishing the bill today. I'll be making a statement tomorrow. And it will go through the normal scrutiny protest that you know process that all bills go through and i'm hopeful that it will become law um probably towards the

beginning of next year and it will be a first wasn't it won't it for the country as a whole the uk i mean um they the government is promoting um this bill in wales in scotland a private members bill is going through at about the same time. But certainly, it's the first government proposed bill in the UK. Right. And why do you feel so strongly about this? Well, I've campaigned for this for, I think it's about 20 years, because it's always seemed wrong to me that a big person can use physical punishment against a little one, and the children have less protection from physical punishment than adults. And I've also felt it's the wrong message to give to children.

Is this the way we want children to think that we deal with difficulties? So I've always been a strong campaigner for this and I'm really proud now that the Welsh Government in the Assembly is taking this forward. Well, it does put the Welsh Government ahead, as I say, of the rest of the UK, because in England and in Northern Ireland and Scotland, reasonable chastisement can still be used as a defence.

What do you think of that? Well, it really muddies the water, because the sort of message that we want, frontline midwives and health visitors, who are there to help parents with a very difficult job of bringing up children, when there is a reasonable defence that people can put forward if they do use physical punishment,

it means they're not being able to give clear messages. Because the sort of, you know, we want children to have the very best start in life. We want them, you know, to grow up with good standards. And I think that this defence does make that very difficult. Can I ask a bit of a personal question? But were you smacked as a child? I wasn't smacked.

And I've got three children and I've got eight grandchildren as well. And I haven't smacked my children. But I do understand that, you know, you do get sometimes, you know, to the end of your tether, bringing up children is a very difficult job. And I think we need as much help and support as you possibly can have as parents. So one of the things we're going to do, we're not introducing this law in isolation. We're making sure that there's a lot of support for parents, a lot of education, a lot of information. And we see it, you know, as our role in the government to lead. But we want to make parents know that there's always somebody to go to

to help them in these difficult crises. So when we actually introduce the bill, which is, of course, today, we will be planning a long introductory period. So if we get royal assent early next year, we'll probably have up to two years to continue a programme of, you know, information and education and parenting classes and doing all the things that we need to do

to support parents. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to criticise from many perspectives, but there will be some people who feel very, very strongly that this is deeply patronising and it's the living embodiment of the nanny state, if you like.

Oh, I've no doubt that we will have, you know, some very lively discussions over this next year. And I'm really looking forward to that because it's really important when we make law that we do take into account all the different points

that people want to make. But I will say that most people are very grateful for any help that you can give them when they are, you know, when they are bringing up children. And I don't, you know, I don't really take that that you say about it being patronising. All right. Thank you very much for your time, Julie. Appreciate it. That's Julie Morgan, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, part of the Welsh government. And Scotland, by the way, hope to adopt exactly the same thing by the end of this year. But Julie invited it really a conversation about smacking children. Have you ever done it? Do you do it? Were you smacked?

What do you think actually about the whole issue? It is a difficult one, smacking children. I only ever did it once, I must admit, to my eldest daughter when she ran into the road. And I did. I walloped her on her nappied bottom because obviously it was the thing I did not want her to do. It was a one-off, but I'm still slightly conflicted as to whether it was the right thing to do. Anyway, your thoughts on that? Welcome. Should you ever smack children? What do you think about that change in the law, potential change in the law in both Wales imminently and Scotland a little later this year, it would seem. So to the ongoing protests against some primary schools in Birmingham and Greater Manchester teaching LGBT rights.

These protests are continuing. Here's a brief glimpse into the thinking of the former head of Ofsted, Sir Michael Wilshaw, who was on today, this morning. These people who have these very conservative views, sincerely held, have also got to accept that they're living in this country with the values that this country holds. And they've got to balance those two issues. And having worked in Birmingham and dealt with the Trojan horse issues that I came up against those that that issue all the time conservative religious people upholding their views and they were right to do that sincerely held views but also they've got to understand that they're living in this country in a pluralistic society with liberal values that strongly believes that people should be treated fairly and equally. Well, that's the view of Sir Michael Wilshaw, who was the head of Ofsted.

And we're going to talk to a parent, to a head teacher, but first a very brief word with the BBC education correspondent, Frankie McCamley. Frankie, exactly what is going on here? OK, right. Well, basically from September next year, it's going to be compulsory for primary schools and secondary schools in England to learn about relationships, amongst other things like keeping safe online, mental health issues. Now, what's going to happen is in primary schools, children are going to get relationship education,

and then that's going to broaden into sex education into secondary schools. Now, when it comes to exactly what these children are going to get relationship education and then that's going to broaden into sex education into secondary schools. Now when it comes to exactly what these children are going to be taught that is really up to the schools. Basically what the government is saying is their guidance they're issuing is some people are LGBT in this country and that should be represented in British society and that law affords them their relationships, recognition and protections. So what they are saying is schools should make the decisions as to what's age appropriate, what these children should be taught, but they must be made aware of that. And that's going to be law. OK, so to be clear, a four-year-old, a five-year-old is not going to be taught the same thing as a ten-and-a-half-year-old about to go to secondary school.

Absolutely not, no. What they're saying is age-appropriate. And, for example, we spoke to one teacher who had a book and it had penguins, and in that book there were two male penguins bringing up a baby male penguin. And it's not exactly going to be a lesson, you know, here are two gay people, this is more about them to a four-year-old. It's just the introduction that this exists in British society and these people should not be treated any

differently to anyone else. Thank you. Stay with us, Frankie. That's Frankie McCamley. Let's bring in a parent, Thana Algoban. Welcome to the programme, Thana. Thank you for having me. Now, you have a little girl. She's only three, actually, so she's not at school yet. She'll be going a year after next, I think that's right. So tell me where you stand on all this. I mean, I'm all for promoting equality for everyone. However, I draw the line where you're trying to promote equality for a certain group of people, but you're infringing the rights of another.

And I believe as parents that we have the right to be able to raise our children. We live in a democracy where we can practice our religion as we see fit. Everyone can be who they want to be in the UK. It's such a diverse place. But we should have that right to be able to practice our religion and raise our children the way that we see fit.

And you're a Muslim parent? I am a Muslim parent, yeah. Tell me about your own upbringing. Did you have these lessons at school? We did have them in the school, but I was pulled out of them. I was born and raised in the UK. I've had pretty much my entire family life has been, you know, teaching me, you know, their views or my religious views about, you know, homosexuality. Obviously, in my religion, it is something that is wrong.

Homosexuality itself is not the wrong. Being homosexual is not wrong. The act of homosexuality they engage in is what's wrong um within my religion so i've been brought up to to to have that ideology but i've turned out to be a person who's completely respectful of everyone around me i i have i have many many many homosexual friends or gay friends i have like many i even have um distant family members within the lgbt community so a gay gay life gay people are not unknown to you in any way absolutely i'm very very okay with them no and we should say that

sir michael wilshaw said it himself that beliefs like your own are he said sincerely held and indeed it isn't by any means restricted to muslim parents we know too that jewish and some christian parents feel very passionately along these lines let's bring in the head teacher we have with us sarah hewitt clarkson who's head of Anderton Park Primary in Birmingham. Good morning to you, Sarah. Good morning. Tell me, have you had protests at your school? We had protests last week, yes. And what did you do about that? Well, it's a tricky issue because we know that people have the right to protest peacefully. Our school is hidden in a lot of um victorian housing so actually we were almost down the end of a cul-de-sac so we had a small group of adults on a corner um

chanting various things uh at the end of the day so what they were hoping obviously to to for other parents and children to listen to them um the police have been very helpful but the police can only intervene if a law is being broken. And so to a certain extent, you have to let the protests carry on. We spoke to a lot of people. We've already spoken to a lot of parents and various community people

in the last couple of weeks. We will talk to anybody who wants to talk to us. Well, let's try and put it in perspective. How many children have you got at the school? We've got nearly 700. Right, so a big, big primary school. Yes.

And of those 700 children, obviously you're talking about over 1,000 parents, how many have joined the protests or complained? The protests were led by somebody who doesn't have any children and he was supported by a parent who has children at a different school. So that was interesting.

So it's a bit difficult to tell how many were our parents and how many weren't. and he was supported by a parent who has children at a different school. So that was interesting. So it's a bit difficult to tell how many were our parents and how many weren't. Our parents, when we were out there, seemed about 10 or 20 at most. I see. So actually, most people haven't joined the protest. Absolutely. And the school is over 80% Muslim, I'm thinking. Yes, it is. So what do you think that suggests to me that the protests aren't actually something

you need to worry about all that much? Well, we worry about them because they've affected children. Even with a few voices and a loud hailer, you can inflict a lot of distress on people. We've had children who are crying because one of the chants was, using my surname, Hewitt Clarkson, step down, Hewitt Clarkson, step down, Hewitt

Clarkson, you're a liar. So that isn't very pleasant to hear if you're a child in my school and I'm the head teacher and I have to remain dignified and cannot go out. I can go out and speak, but I also have to make a judgment about how that looks and what that might antagonise. Yeah, forgive me. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that this was something insignificant and not deeply concerning. It obviously is. But let's talk then about what your legal obligations are. As I understand it, as our education correspondent pointed out earlier, you have to teach this. Well, this is the real crux of the matter. I'm very glad you've asked me about this. Even before the relationship education new policy starts next

year, all public sector workers have to adhere to the public sector equality duty that is laid out in the Equality Act 2010. So that law has been there for nine years. That isn't an education law, it's a law that applies to everybody. And there's a specific section, section 149, that is about public sector workers and that says things like you must eliminate discrimination, tackle prejudice, seek to foster good relations between people who have a characteristic, protect a characteristic and those who don't. It uses the word promote once in that section.

It says we must promote understanding of all aspects of the Equality Act. Right. Promote understanding. And, Thanna, you seem a reasonable parent. You certainly sound it. What's wrong with promoting understanding? Because you say yourself you have gay friends. Yeah, it's not about promoting understanding. We can promote as parents the understanding on our terms in line with our religion.

Where we draw a line is where it's being taught, where we have no control, where it's being taught where we have no control no say in the matter and I believe more than anything like for me as a level-headed person as a level-headed mother and a Muslim woman I believe like in in my mind if the time that I would ever talk to my daughter about it would be when it naturally got brought up if she saw for instance the same-sex couple in front of her that's when I would explain it to her I would explain it to her in a diplomatic way I think by doing this by by almost infringing on people's rights um you're kind of causing you're stigmatizing it and making it into a thing and it's becoming a negative thing it's causing it's building

resentment within people who would otherwise be very kind of I I hold the ethos of live and let live, you know, to each their own. Everyone is free to live as they want, but it's making me, rather than being reactive to when the situation arises, I want to be almost proactive if it is introduced. Right, but you're a proactive parent, and Sarah, you must have pupils at your school whose parents would not be proactive

and wouldn't teach them these things. Absolutely, or even teach them the opposite. So one of the placards that was held outside my school was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. So that, for me, and for most of my school community and staff, is incredibly inflammatory and actually is not tolerant or respectful and it's not tackling any kind of prejudice. It's actually fuelling prejudice.

What about that, Sona? You know, with regards regards to that i just go back to my own upbringing i was taught that it wasn't the right thing but it didn't develop into me not understanding lgbtq it didn't develop to me not tolerating lgbtq you can't be it's not correlate it's not directly correlated it's it's almost you're kind of pinning what you know all the troubles and trials and the trials and tribulations of what the lgbtq community have been through you know as a minority you're kind of pinning them on a thing that it's nothing to do with it at the end of the day we should all be able to raise our children the way that we see fit that's all it is it's it's our right as parents we we bared these children for nine months we raise them how we see fit. That's all it is. It's our right as parents. We bear these children for nine months. We raise them how we see fit.

It doesn't mean, it's not directly correlated. It doesn't mean at the end of it, they're going to be hateful. They're going to be... No, but I mean, there's no suggestion whatsoever that a primary school would be encouraging gay activity. They are simply pointing out that is something that you might,

at the age of 10, 11, you might be that. And you need to know that you're going to be safe and that you're going to be all right. And there's nothing to be concerned about. What's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with that if it's brought in from the parent. But for me as a Muslim woman, for the idea that it's going to be normalized to my child, that's the part that I'm not okay with because it's not in line with my religion. But I mean, with the greatest respect,

it might be normal for your child. And if it is, I will deal with it in the matter that's still in line with my religion. Like I said, being homosexual is not what's frowned upon in Islam. It's the act of homosexuality. It's the conducting of sexual relations in a homosexual manner. So I would teach, I tried to guide my child to still be in line with Islam whilst, you know, being who they are. At the end of the day, they're born that way. I'm not going to love them any less. I'm not going

to treat them any less, but I want to have it on my terms and I have that right as a parent. Thank you very much for talking to us, Thana Algoban. And a quick final word from Frankie McCamley, our education correspondent. This isn't going to go away anytime soon, is it, this one? Well, no, absolutely not. And we've been hearing about parents in Birmingham, parents in Manchester. And obviously, the introduction of these lessons, they will become law in 2020, September 2020. But schools are being urged to start bringing them in now. So, you know, as we approach the next year and people start to take up, schools start to take up different programmes

across the country, this isn't an issue that's going to go away at all. Right, we should be clear, this is actually in reference to England, isn't it? In England, yes. Okay, thank you very much, Frankie. Scotland are changing their laws and the way they do these things, we understand.

It's been a complicated programme, actually, in that respect today, with all sorts of things going on across the country with lots of devolved powers in operation. Thank you very much Frankie and thank you Thanna for talking to us. We also appreciate the help of Sarah Hewitt-Clarkson, Head of Anderton Park Primary School

in Birmingham. Now May, May, I think it's the 3rd, pretty sure it's the 3rd, marks the 40th anniversary of Margaret Thatcher's election as Prime Minister. So we're going to have a series of features and discussions. And this is really one where we'd love to get your involvement. Any memories, any thoughts? What was your Maggie experience like? It may well be hugely positive. On the other hand, BBC Balance, it could be very negative indeed. We'd love to hear from you. Email the programme via our website bbc.co.uk

slash Women's Hour. Maggie and me on Women's Hour in the next couple of months. And also tomorrow on the programme, Helen Clark, former head of the United Nations Development Programme, former Prime Minister of New Zealand as well. She's just returned from Afghanistan, where she's been looking at women's empowerment projects. And we'll talk to Helen Clark on Women's Hour tomorrow. Now, the Nigerian-Romanian pianist Rebecca Amordia is here. Good morning to you, Rebecca. How are you? Good morning. We're in our vast music studio at the top of Broadcasting House.

So you are in the same room as me, but it could be half a mile away, so I'm booming at you. Anyway, I can see your face just about above the piano there. Artistic director of the first ever African concert series at the October Gallery in London. Now, why is that so important, Rebecca? African art music is not known in the Western world. And I started on a mission a few years ago

on promoting African classical music to the UK audience. And so African art so African concert series is a result of this work of research. And we are bringing to the London audience, especially, a series of concerts, monthly concerts, taking place at the Octobock Gallery, that explore, every concert explores the different aspects of the African classical music, the African music for piano, African songs, chamber music, and even bigger ensembles.

And we will have very established international artists, including the Chineke Ensemble, in July and also in December. Well, it's all happening. Tell me a little bit about yourself, first of all. Nigerian-Romanian, that's a really interesting heritage. And you grew up in Romania. Yes, I was born in Romania to a Romanian mother and Nigerian father. My father went to Romania after the Nigerian Civil War, Biaffra to study medicine. And that's where he met my mother and they got married. And I was born and they decided to settle in Romania. I grew up under Ceausescu's regime, which again was quite challenging for a mixed-race child,

especially that mixed-race marriages were not allowed at the time. I imagine it must have been extraordinarily challenging for your parents and no doubt for you at times. Let's hear some of the music because this is something that will be new to quite a lot of ears currently listening. So tell us about the first piece you're going to play. The first piece is by Nigerian composer Ayo Bankole. It's called Variations for Little Ayo. Ayo Bankole was one of Nigeria's most prolific composers and he's one of the experts of Nigerian art music.

Unfortunately, he was murdered at the age of 40 by half-brothers, so he didn't live to compose as much as he could have. But in his music, he's using a blend of the classical music and traditional Nigerian folk tunes and rhythms. All right, let's hear it. Thank you, Rebecca. And if you can, a really brief introduction and then we'll hear the second piece as well.

The second piece is a study in African rhythms by Nigerian-Ghanian composer Fredo Novalosuoke. Yes, let's hear it if you can. Thank you. 🎵 The pianist Rebecca Amordia. It was good to hear that this morning. I enjoyed the music. And thanks to everybody who has been in touch with the programme. I can let you into a bit of a secret. We've had to move studios.

Can you hear the difference? That was because I was upstairs in the music studio and the piano tuner was arriving. Yes, such domesticities do happen even at the house that is forever broadcasting. So we've moved and it gives me a chance to do the podcast in our normal studio. So I hope you appreciate that. Here are some emails. Here's Adrian. First of all, he describes himself as a single man in his early to mid 60s. For years, he said he hoped to marry and have a family. But given the state of the environment and the way

humanity is changing this planet, I'm now pleased, he says, that I'm not bringing children into the world. I fear for the plight of all living creatures being born these days. We talked too about smacking children today and Karen emailed, I was frequently smacked and hit in temper when I was a child. I strongly believe that no child should ever be smacked. To be physically assaulted by somebody more than twice your size and somebody who holds all the power in the relationship is traumatising. As a society we we minimise and justify it, but it is entirely and always wrong. I did smack my own son once. He was 16. I deeply regret it and I'm still haunted by it. Yes, I understand where Karen's coming from there. I think a lot of people will be able to

relate to that. Sharon sums it up rather neatly, actually. My daughter is now in her early 30s. As a little girl, she was really bright and argumentative and had three younger brothers smacking was a last resort and rarely used but she was very naughty at times when she was being difficult one day at the age of five i was reasoning with her and must have said i'd smack her if she carried on at which point she put her hands on her hips stamped her foot and pronounced my head teacher says hitting people is wrong. I burst out laughing. That made her even crosser, of course. But she was right. LGBT lessons in schools.

Cara emails the children that need this sort of education the most are the little girls and boys who are gay and yet could be being raised within an environment that tells them it's wrong. These are the very children we need to reach out to and tell them it's OK, you're OK, there are other people in the world like you. Some people are gay. It's a fact, not a belief. No child will ever become gay as a result of teaching of this sort.

However, some gay children may spend a lifetime in misery trying to pretend they're straight because they've been taught there's something wrong in speech marks with them. I happen to be a straight heterosexual Jewish woman. Your religion is irrelevant. You've got to follow the law of the land, says Cara on email. Well, thanks to everybody. We always appreciate reading the emails, of course, and we're really keen, as I said during the course of the programme today, to hear from people who've got something to say about Margaret

Thatcher, your Margaret Thatcher memories, because we are approaching the 40th anniversary of Margaret Thatcher becoming Prime Minister. It doesn't seem 40 years. It is 40 years. It was May the 3rd, I suppose technically the early hours of May the 4th, 1979, when she became Prime Minister.

So what part, if any, has she played in your life? What are the things you remember? What are the things you wish you could forget? Either of those two things. We welcome all interesting views and opinions and experiences on the subject of the Prime Minister, Baroness Thatcher. So get in touch, email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. And tomorrow we're back, interesting programme tomorrow, including Helen Clark, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand.

You know the way late at night, in bed, in the dark, your tired mind can wander and strange thoughts float like balloons escaping into the sky? Well, Bunk Bed is a podcast where Peter Curran and Patrick Marber find the nearest faraway place from the hurly-burly of daily life, where tired minds can wander. Why don't you come along and eavesdrop and see if you like it? You can subscribe to Bunk Bed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.