Woman's Hour - Women and Equalities Minister. Celebrating the achievement of mothers. Ukraine refugees.

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

Why in 2022 is there no position in the Cabinet solely dedicated to the job of Women and Equalities? Why is it always tagged onto another cabinet role? Emma talks to Amber Rudd who juggled the job of being Home Secretary while she was Work and Pensions Secretary too. Plus, Shadow Women and Equalities Minister Anneliese Dodds, who's also Chair of the Labour Party.When the war in Ukraine was just unfolding we spoke to Iryna Terlecky who's Chair of the Association of Ukrainian Women in Great Britain. Since then she's has been busy responding to the refugee crisis by representing the Ukrainian community in meetings with the Government, talking to both Michael Gove, the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, and with the Home Secretary Priti Patel. Emma spoke to her about what she makes of the latest government response to what's going on.Do you think motherhood gets enough recognition? We meet Agnes Agyepong, the founder of the Glomama Awards, a space celebrating the achievements of mothers, and one of this year’s winners, Safiyya Vorajee.Plus, why more and more organisations are seeking out staff and volunteers with direct experiences to help them front campaigns, fundraise and inform policy. We hear from Tom Quinn, Director of External Affairs at Beat, the UK’s Eating Disorder Charity and Miriam Taylor, a psychotherapist and author who specialises in trauma about why is it so important to have people with what's termed "lived experience" and why safeguards must be in place to protect them.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This podcast is sponsored by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply.

I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme where it is always International Women's Day and has been for 76 years. But on today, which is actually International Women's Day, Ukrainian women and girls are having a very different time than they would in normal circumstances. We're not facing the unimaginable horrors of war. In Ukraine, it's traditional for men to spoil the women

in their lives every year on March the 8th with flowers and gifts or breakfast in bed. Women can expect to be pampered and told why they're special and loved. As well as men congratulating women, there's a tradition of women also congratulating each other on International Women's Day in Ukraine. Normally mothers to daughters, sisters to sisters and friends to friends. And I'm also told that some men take up all the household chores for the day in regular times. Now, you may balk at some of those traditions, but the point is, normally today is a real celebration. And today, of course, the contrast is stark. Now the women don't need flowers or want such things.

They need safe passage, food, a roof over their heads. And so far, the UK has only provided 300 visas. We're going to try to get to the bottom of that with the chair of the Association of Ukrainian Women in Great Britain, who's been talking to government ministers, including Home Secretary Priti Patel. But speaking of ministers, if I asked you two questions, what would you say? Do you know that we have a women's minister in this country? Second question. If so, can you name her?

And it is a her. I will share her name shortly and give you a bit of time to reply to that mentally. Of course, you can send a message in. But perhaps one reason you don't know about it, if you don't know, and you may not know who it is, is because effectively the job is a side hustle of ministers. They hold a different post that's a bigger post and they have this alongside. I'll be speaking to one woman who held the job shortly and one woman who would very much like to hold the job in cabinet. But if you were women's minister for the day, and this is my other question for you, what would be top of the intro? What would you do if you could be

Women's Minister of this country? First job, 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour. Do check for what those charges are, their standard message rate, on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through the Women's Hour website with your suggestions and why, why you would choose to do that thing. I'm always interested to hear reasoning. Also today, is it morally right for organisations to hire people based on their painful and often traumatic experiences? The lived experience, as it's being called more and more. That is the trend for some organisations, but should it be? And why one woman set up an awards ceremony to recognise motherhood. All that to come. But have you figured it out yet?

The Minister for Women is Liz Truss. She is also our Foreign Secretary, and it's safe to say she's pretty busy at the moment. As Foreign Secretary, she is dealing and navigating the UK's diplomatic response to the invasion of Ukraine. Before that, she was International Trade Secretary, tasked with signing post-Brexit trade deals and grappling with the Northern Ireland Protocol. But alongside both of those jobs, she has continued to be Minister for Women and Equalities.

Why is the job always tagged on to another cabinet role? You may remember Nicky Morgan did the job as well as being Education Secretary. Penny Morden did it while she was Defence Secretary. And Amber Rudd, who's just joined me in the studio, juggled being Women's and Equalities Minister while being Home Secretary, one of the toughest jobs in government. And she also did it, I should say, while she was Working Pension Secretary too. And on the line, I'm joined by the present shadow Women and Equalities Minister, Annalise Dodds, who I should say also has another job. She's Chair of the Labour Party. Welcome to you both. Amber, just to start with you, good morning. Good morning. What is the role of women in equalities? What comes under it?

Well, it's to be champion for issues to do with women and equalities. And it has a small department which used to move around with whoever was minister. So under education for a while, it was an education. And then it moved, I think, to work and pensions. These poor people trying to do women in qualities being made to move their jobs around to different departments. Then it settled in the cabinet office. But it's the same, I think, as any cabinet job in a way, which is you are the champion of your subject. So women in qualities champion, you sit around in cabinet is the women in qualities minister. But I do think that as a side hustle, it doesn't really work. And I would just add to your point, Emma, that Liz Truss also has international aid that was also folded into the Foreign Office.

And then, of course, when David Frost resigned, she was asked to solve the Northern Ireland Protocol. So the idea of having time to do women and equalities as well is just impossible, just reinforces the point that we should have a separate role and an independent minister. And why hasn't that happened? It hasn't happened, I think, because it hasn't been a priority. I mean, you look at the cabinets that we've had recently over the past few years, Boris Johnson and indeed Theresa May have formed their own cabinet roles and put people into them. So there is the machinery that can be done. But of course, we had a Brexit secretary, which is now gone. And then we had

DFID, International Development, which has been folded into the Foreign Office, International Trade, which Anne-Marie Trevelyan does. So a prime minister can move around and set up different departments and have different people in cabinet. But I think it's a question of priorities. And I think that's why it's important to talk about it, to say women inequalities are not getting a fair voice. We need to have it as a separate cabinet role with its own campaign, budget and champion. Is it the case when you were briefly in a cabinet with Boris Johnson as leader that he forgot about it? I'm afraid that is true. When I was appointed to work in pensions, there was a pause when it was

really appropriate for me to leave. And I said, one more thing, could I have the women inequalities brief? And he looked through his papers and then reassured me that yes, indeed, I was getting that, as he put it. But he wasn't the only one, I have to say. I mean, prime ministers do tend to have it as an adjunct to somebody else. They look for who the most senior woman is and then they ask them to cover it as well. And I just think the experience over the past few years shows that nobody is championing women's cases, women's causes in cabinet the way you do for other parts of your department. And yet the former prime minister before Boris Johnson had held the role. Theresa May herself had experience and still forgot at times perhaps to prioritise it

or didn't when having the opportunity to structure her cabinet take the chance to make it a separate role. Well actually I think Theresa May did do more for women generally because under her we had the highest number of women in cabinet which is an important part. It's a small group of women, but yes. No, it was 32, 33. No, no, I meant in terms of the country and the impact of that.

No, but I think that having women in cabinet with power, with authority does make a difference to women's lives. And it's important for equality, not just for recognising that women are there as role models, but the fact that their lives are considered as part of every decision. So she did a lot for women in my opinion. I suppose I'm just with that point that you're making, and I know you've actually felt this for some time about it needing to be a separate job. It is quite striking that the second female prime minister we had who'd even held that job, because it's a relatively new job as well, didn't seek to make it a separate portfolio. Yes, I accept that. Let's just bring in at this point, Annalise Dodds, who is in the position in the shadow cabinet. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining

us today. What do you see as the priorities? We're getting lots of messages in here about what should be top of the entry if any of our listeners got the chance. What's at the top of yours? Well, I would just say, first of all, that that entry has much greater prominence within the Labour Party because we don't just have a shadow minister for women and equalities. We're determined that this must be a secretary of state position, one which does have that elevated status because of the critical importance of women and equality for women and for other protected groups. And in terms of what would be at the top of the entry, my goodness, it's an absolutely massive one at the moment. I mean, what we've been pushing on today has particularly been around economic equality. I mean, we know that women ultimately are going to hold the key to our country's economic success in the future. But we also know that right now, for example,

we've got eight out of 100, 50, 100 chief executive officers being women, very low numbers on company boards. And then also we know that when it comes to small businesses, that women tend to get much less finance than men. So we've set out a bunch of different proposals to achieve very speedy reform there so that women really can play that full part in the recovery. Even things like, for example, equal pay. We actually saw the pay gap getting bigger last year, very disturbingly.

You know, the rate of change has closed down. If you let women compare across businesses, not just in the business where they work, but across businesses, that would really turbocharge that drive towards more pay equality. But you were the former Chancellor. In fact, the last time I had you on, I think that's the position you were in, Shadow Chancellor, I should say, excuse me. And you've gone straight to finance, which perhaps is a sign of your expertise and some of those roles that you've had, as well as the importance of it. And when we asked the government, and of course, I should say we invited and made strenuous efforts to have a minister on this morning, and we don't have one here on Women's Hour and International Women's Day. When we asked why there isn't a dedicated

women's minister job, a spokesperson told us action on equality cannot be delivered in silo. And what you just said, perhaps speaks to those who believe this role, and we'll come to how it fits into today's agenda, if you like, is very powerful when it's twinned with another post, because you can bring in the discipline of that post. And in your case, if you'd stayed a shadow chancellor and had women and equalities, perhaps that could have been turbocharged. Well, you have to have the posts pushing in the same direction so that you've got that clear accountability for women's equality. And that's where I think the current government does have a big challenge. I mean, for example, during women inequalities questions, that's the time in the House of Commons when MPs can raise issues related to this brief. Now, I've asked time and

time again about why, in my view, in the view of many Labour women, far too little is being done at the moment to tackle domestic abuse and violence against women and girls. And I've not had the core officeholder for the government respond to those questions once. Now, sometimes that's been because, you know, quite legitimately as Foreign Secretary, obviously, she has been very, very engaged, quite rightly so in the current international crisis. But I think it does highlight that, you know, okay, it makes sense when there's that clear read across, when it makes sense to be having those different responsibilities. But when they're going to be pulling in different directions so that women's issues get lost, that's not good enough.

And I think we've seen that, as I said, with women and girls in particular. Sorry, I was just going to say, in the role, to be clear, when you go and ask those questions, you've never once, while you've been in this position, been able to put them to the minister for women and equalities liz truss so she has been on the bench she's been sat on that bench but it's not been her who's answered those questions and you know i really do think that right now when we've got such a high level of reported crimes of that type and such appallingly low levels of prosecutions that this has got to be a priority for government. You know, it is a priority for the opposition. We are working as a team. I mean, you're absolutely right, Emma. You've got another job.

You've got two jobs. So you say it's a priority. You're chair of the Labour Party as well. The Labour Party seems to be structuring it as well, that you have an additional job. The difference, Emma, is that they don't pull in different directions. That's what I'm saying. So I've always been there for those women and equalities questions. And when I've been chair of the Labour Party, a lot of what I've been focused on has been about ensuring equality.

So we've completely overhauled our complaints processes, for example, particularly focused on combating sexual harassment. That's been radically changed since I've been in post. We've also made sure that we've changed our selection processes radically as well, so that should really help women. And I've been doing that working with the Labour Women's Network. So, you know, much of what I've been doing has been pushing in the same direction. The problem is when. When it diverges. Okay. Exactly. That's how you see that. Amber Rudd, you were going on to say at the beginning of your answer with regards to Liz Truss, she can't possibly be doing this work in the way that she would hope to.

No, she can't because she's just got so much on her plate. And actually, the woman who shows us how to be a real champion for women in equality, is constantly raising the subject, constantly challenging the government on this, is the chair of the Women in Equality Select Committee, Caroline Oakes. She really shows the leadership that's needed from a minister in terms of making it a priority and constantly worrying at it. And to Anne-Lise, I would say, if I may say, lovely to see you, Anne-Lise, is you do have two jobs.

On the other hand, it is completely different because she's in opposition. Being in opposition is not obviously the same as being in government when you're actually having to do stuff. So I imagine she could, she can manage it. But I mean, I would hazard that if we had a Labour government, they would then separate that off so that the Secretary of State for Women and Equalities could give it all their attention. Because when you're in government, you're just, you're driving the car.

When you're opposition, you're just looking at it. You're quite a fan of car analogies, aren't you? What did you once say about Boris Johnson in a car? It just slipped out like that. He's not the man you want driving you home at night. I'm afraid I did say that once, yes. Do you still stand by that? I'm going to pass on that question at the moment.

Thank you very much because he's got other things to do, which is hopefully more important. That wasn't a no. So just talking about the role of ministers, of course, it's interesting, it's just as it happens, two of the most powerful ministers right now, those positions are held by women. And yesterday we saw rather a spectacle of the Home Secretary, a position you've held, Priti Patel, and Liz Truss, as we're talking about, the Foreign Secretary and Minister for Women and Equalities.

It seemed to go between the two departments whose responsibility it was about getting Ukrainian women and girls and men and boys out of the country. And we've only issued, it seems, 300 visas, which is up from 50 yesterday, but obviously pales in comparison to the likes of Germany and even Ireland on our doorstep. It was announced by Priti Patel, I tried to keep abreast of this, that there would be a new route. And then the prime minister later on the same day said there would be no new route and they would be the same as a previously announced scheme. It's confusing to say the least. What do you make of how the present Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary seem to be coordinating this? Well, I find it absolutely baffling and really disappointing that the numbers of visas being issued are so tiny compared to other European

countries. And I can only put it down to this, which is that the Home Office is looking for, I think, examples of what to copy, what has worked before, how do we put it in place, and then make sure we roll it out, as they say, when actually the correct approach is something completely different. Everything has changed since Putin invaded Ukraine. Our approach should be wholly different. We've got war in Europe. We've got refugees we need to help now who have left their countries. And it's worth acknowledging on International Women's Day,

women and children being targeted, women leaving with their children, needing support. And I think that somebody needs to just address with the Home Office and the Home Secretary, this is not a business as usual, we need a new scheme. This is something completely different. A new approach is needed. Isn't that somebody, the same person you don't want driving you home at night? It's the Prime Minister. Well, listen, there have been schemes, I say schemes,

but the approach to Hong Kong has been completely different and has been liberal and open and has been correct. But why do you think there's not that grip that you're talking about? Because it is now weeks on. Yes, yes. And what we're hearing, of course, is very positive talk, but no action put in place. And I mean, politics is like this sometimes. And I think that people who are sadly not me, but the politicians inside are putting pressure on the Home Office and on the Prime Minister. I saw yesterday that the One Nation caucus led by Damien Green and supported by Jeremy Hunt have written a punchy letter asking for attention to this.

And lots of Conservative MPs, as well as obviously Labour and the opposition, are saying this is not good enough. Acknowledge that there has been a change and do it differently. Is Priti Patel good at her job? Listen, I'm not going to criticise her. I know how difficult that job is. Because you know, I'm asking. This is a very, you don't need to necessarily make it personal,

but I suppose how can you not? People are concerned about who is coordinating. Emma, I don't think now is the time to criticise the government individual ministers because... It's more when it's the time to get people out. And why is that not happening? And it has to lie at the door of those in charge. I think the right approach is to help the Home Office do the right thing to help people who are in desperate need of support.

And I hope that Priti and Liz pick up the phone to each other and try and work it out and put the priority of these people in need before any of their concerns about each other. Do they get on? I think so. I know that may sound trite, but it sometimes can be about relationships

and how those units work together. They certainly need it. Annalise Dodds, to come back to you, there's a message here, which I thought you'd be interested to respond to as the Shadow Women and Equalities. A message that says, I didn't know there was a women's minister. And it's frankly embarrassing that there is. It's an admission that women are such an inferior and downtrodden section of society that they actually need specific representation like children or some

minority vulnerable group how can we ever expect to be treated as equals by men when we're admitting that we need assistance that's not offered to men annalee stops well with a lot of respect to that listener and i'm a listener myself so i fall in the same category but I'm afraid I just don't agree I think it is important to have one person who is accountable ultimately for driving forward equality and you know we've waited for decades indeed centuries to be valued as much as men a lot of the time we've waited for decades and centuries to see male violence towards women and girls dealt with you know I'm not prepared to wait any longer I want to see action and what I and girls dealt with. You know, I'm not prepared to wait any longer. I want to see action. What I would say, though, is that, of course, this will depend

on all of those different departments working together. And, you know, certainly that's how we're doing it on the Labour side. You know, I've been working, for example, very closely with the Vets around some of those visa issues because they do particularly impact on women and girls, as was just mentioned by Amber quite rightly you know we have got a team there but you need to have one person who ultimately is accountable for driving that change because ultimately you know what isn't measured and what isn't associated with one person very often just simply isn't going to get done i'm afraid i'll give you a few insights both of you uh what we've been hearing from our listeners if they were to have the job you once held amber and, and the job you'd like to hold in government, Annelies.

One here saying, I'd put affordable childcare for all to support mothers' flexible working. A lot about safety. Another one here, if women have children, it's their decision. And in the NHS, especially, they seem to get first choice of holidays and special dispensation off for sick children. This shouldn't happen. I had two two children i never asked for special treatment i had to use my annual leave to care for sick parents or partners women have got to start being fair and just to each other before the men are going to take women seriously if we can't help each other and rally around uh we can't expect men to that's from melanie more about uh equal pay

and also some stuff coming in here some messages coming in with regards to the sexualisation of children and also what's going on with the sexualisation of society and porn. I'm trying to make my way through many of these messages. Make misogyny a crime, says Anne here, which is, of course, just how the government has decided on the advice of the law society to not do. And there's one just to put here again to you, Annelies, if I can, from Jill. And I have to say a whole series of these messages came in at the same time as, I would legislate for a clear definition of what a woman is.

You're in this position and Labour still, it seems to be the position that Labour would update the Gender Recognition Act to enable a process of self-identification. How does that fit with also trying to support the implementation of single sex exemptions? How do those two things go together, which I believe is Labour's position? Well, they go together because of a very proud Labour achievement, ultimately, which was that Equality Act 2010, one of the last measures that we were determined

to put into place as a Labour government. And that Equality Act, as many people listening to this I'm sure will be aware, and they may well have used its provisions actually against discrimination, it protects on the basis of sex. And it ensures that there can be a change from the usual principle of, for example, the inclusion of trans people, where that is a proportionate means to a legitimate end. It's spelled out very clearly within that Act and we'd uphold those provisions. So that's how it goes together. You know, really, we need to end up in a situation where we see equality across the board, where we make sure that we have that future, where everyone can have those

opportunities. And Labour's definition of a woman? Well I have to say that there are different definitions legally around what a woman actually is I mean you look at the definition within the Equality Act and I think it just says someone who is adult and female I think but then doesn't say how you define either of those things I I mean, obviously that's then, you've got the biological definition, legal definition. With respect, I didn't ask for that. What's the labour definition? Oh, I think with respect, Emma,

I think it does depend what the context is, surely. I mean, surely that is important here. You know, there are people who have decided that they have to make that transition. You know, I've spoken with many of them. It's been a very difficult process for many of those people. And, you know, understandably, because they live as a woman, you know, they want to be defined as a woman. That's what the gender recognition and the labour process has brought into place.

Context is all, but trans women are women from your perspective. Is that right? But then when you come to the Equality Act, and, you know, I'm not going to be... No, no, you're just Shadow Women and Equalities Minister. I've been asked this by about eight messages here, and I'm just trying to clarify, because the government's been very clear

it's not going ahead in England with the process of self-identification. So that's why I'm asking you. Well, I don't think the government has been very clear on many aspects of this. When it comes to the operation of the single sex exemptions, you know, that is spelled out within the Equality Act, quite rightly. I mean, when it comes to sport, for example, it says that you can have single sex. Sorry, if I can just finish that you can have that single sex exemption, for example, if that's necessary for the safety of participants in sport

or if it's necessary in order to ensure fair competitions. That is spelled out within the Act. I think it's really important that we're actually looking at what the legislation says. I've read it out. I've read it out several times and I'm sure I will continue to do so. I was just trying to get a pithy answer or definition from you there in your role. Amber Rudd, for you, what was the greatest achievement as Women's Minister when I was Home Secretary and Work and Pensions Secretary. I recall particularly when we were removing, trying to repatriate really refugees from the jungle in Calais, which had 10,000 refugees in it, and we'd agreed to take nearly a thousand, some of them were children. And I remember sitting down with my officials and saying, we're going to take the teenage girls first first because we know they're being trafficked.

And my official said, no, no, we can't possibly do that. We have to approach this under the law with an approach to equality, men and women together. And I said, but the women are most vulnerable. And so we redefined how we were going to approach it on the basis of vulnerability, not on the basis of sex. And I think you had to have cared about women's safety to make that difference. Yes. I mean, I suppose that's that pushback as well, again, though, that's coming, that Annalise did not agree with, but the idea all the time that if you have this focus, it has to be on women as more vulnerable, which, of course, in that instance, definitely is true. But that's why some people feel uncomfortable. Well, I would say to those people that we have to live with the world in which we find it. I long

for a world where we have absolute equality, 50-50, everyone feels safe. Two to three women a week are not killed by their partners. I long for that world. But while we don't have it, let's make sure we protect all women. Well, let's see if Boris Johnson or his team or somebody from it was listening to this morning's programme, perhaps we'll make that a separate role. We shall see, especially in light of what we're talking about with Ukrainian women and children coming up on the programme very shortly. Amber Rudd, thank you very much indeed. Former Home Secretary, former Women and Equalities Minister

and the present Shadow Women and Equalities Minister, Annalise Dodds for Labour, also Chair of the Labour Party. And a woman's our listener, which is always nice to know on International Women's Day. Now, when we were discussing another very powerful woman and her resignation, Dame Cressida Dick, who resigned from the Metropolitan Police over reports of brutality, racism and misogyny in the force, Zoe Billingham, the former inspector of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, suggested it would be a good idea for the Met to include women with direct experience of sexism as part of the recruitment process.

She said that she just started working in the NHS and mental health and for every one of their top appointments, they have a service user. She says someone with lived experience to help them get the right person for the job. Many organisations such as charities which help people overcome traumatic experiences and challenging situations, actively seek staff and volunteers who have such direct experience and understand what people are going through. They often ask them to front campaigns, fundraise, inform policy or, you know, even work there. Is it important, though, to have that experience? And is it right? Tom Quinn, Director of External Affairs at BEAT, the UK's eating disorder charity, and Miriam Taylor, a psychotherapist

and author who specialises in trauma. Join me now. Miriam, I actually thought I'd start with you. Good morning. Good morning and thank you for inviting me. Do you think this trend, because I mentioned it about the police, I mentioned the NHS and I've mentioned charities, having people who have direct experience in employment is correct? Yes, absolutely. Why not? The people have lived experience and that makes them experts. Yes. And do you worry that... It's absolutely right. I suppose the question then within your expertise is,

do you have concerns about the re-traumatisation of those individuals if that's what's being drawn upon? Yes, I mean, obviously, you know, it depends on the context and it depends on the individual. It's impossible to generalise. There are risks of re-traumatisation, but if the right supports are in place and if there aren't any echoes of exploitative dynamics that will bring up the past for these people, then of course their voices need to be heard. And of course their perspectives need to be heard. They've got so much to offer. How do you, or how can organisations when making the decision to include those people either in campaigns or as part of jobs, how can they, if you like, safeguard or make sure that those circumstances are in place where they aren't going to be doing more

harm to those individuals than good? What sort of assessments need to go on and why um i think a lot of it's about dialogue and transparency about how uh that individual may be uh may be required to fulfill their role or to tell their story um it you know it still remains their story. So there are issues there about who has access to it. People should be treated as experts in their own right rather than because of the past. So there's no reason why people shouldn't fulfil a role on equal terms and have something added to it. It can be exploitative, can't it, though? There are organisations that do offer money for individuals to talk like this

and aren't going to do those sorts of checks. I think, I mean, I hear about exploitation, people with lived experience being invited to speak at conferences without being offered a speaker's fee. I heard last week about people being invited to offer their stories for a book and being charged for it. I mean, this is where there's commercial gain on the part of the organisation. This is actually really unacceptable and unethical. So you have to really think very hard and with the individual concerned about what the task is. And in terms of you as an individual, if you're listening to this and you're thinking about whether to tell your story as part of an organisation or publicly or write about it, what should you consider before doing so? How could you appraise whether you might be

ready or not? Well, the very first question I would ask would be, is it safe? Might there be consequences that you haven't foreseen? And I think you might need to talk that through with someone else, because in my experience, people often want to tell their story and sometimes want to tell it prematurely. And then there's a backlash, and that's a form of re-traumatisation, which is not not in anybody's interests, really. No. Well, let me bring in Tom at this point from BEAT. You both employ people with eating disorders and also people who are, I think you would say, are in recovery and also have some who work as volunteers. Why? Well, we think it's central to make sure that we know what support that we, you know, that we're

offering to people is the right support. So having the voice of people with lived experience involved as we're developing our support is critical, as we're developing our campaigns are critical but also we recognize that empowering people with lived experience to make their voice heard whether that be in the media whether that be in our campaigning whether that be in raising awareness and speaking to other people that might be vulnerable is fantastically important because frankly they're fantastic advocates we need to make sure that they are supported properly but um they they make such a difference to really speaking to others that might be in a similar situation and yet at the same time that you know people could argue that they should or may feel better if they were moving on and not having to think about this

or focus on it i'm not saying you're getting anyone against their will, but it's the idea of what we've just been talking about. How do you safeguard against re-traumatisation? How do you think about that as an organisation? Well, as Miriam said, right from the start, it's open dialogue, open conversation. So in the recruitment process, we will have an open conversation asking them about, you know, where they feel like they're at in their recovery, what the role involved. For certain roles, we do actually put specific criteria in place. So, for example, for some roles, we'll say that we need people to have lived a life unaffected by eating sort of thoughts or behaviours for a year.

That's obviously quite a, you know, it's not particularly nuanced, but it just gives us a starting point. We will then make sure that there are regular clinical supervisions in place and staff and volunteers that provide direct support to people who are struggling with eating disorders receive that on a regular basis. All other staff can access it whenever they choose to and we just make sure that we have that open conversation that people need to take a break and take take a step back they're they're very able to do you have people do you have people who if i may do you have people who who do regularly take a step back because it is too much um it doesn't happen very often i have to to say. But yes, it does happen occasionally. And we make sure that we give them the right support so that if they feel they're able to come back,

they do so in a safe way. You know, ultimately, almost half of our staff have lived experience of needing sort of whether personally or as a carer. So, you know, they're pretty central to everything that we do, really. Is there ever anything difficult in the dynamic? I'm just thinking about the running of an organisation, and it may not apply to yours, but I wanted to ask the question, between those who say, well, you know, I've had the experience of this, and I think we should do this, and those who perhaps have more experience of actually running an organisation and say, we need to do this, because it can create quite sensitive areas in management, I imagine, which is where this idea began from this suggestion with regards to the Metropolitan Police.

We make a real point of ensuring that all staff are listened to and have their voice, and we do have regular opportunities for both staff and volunteers and indeed supporters outside that process to feed into our decision making. We do have members of our top team that have lived experience and their voice is really critical to our decision making. As you might imagine as a charity many of our trustees that are actually ultimately responsible for the organisation have lived experience of eating disorders. So really right at the top, we ensure that there is that voice. Do you worry or is there a danger that their experience, because I'm looking at getting some messages from the NHS as well

while we're talking from those who work there, that their experience ends up being the sole defining focus of their life, keeping them stuck in what have been very traumatising moments rather than moving beyond it have you have you considered that well ultimately i i think we feel that our role is to make sure that the support is is in place but we are being open with those individuals about what their role involves i i don't think it's our role um to prevent someone who's in a um in a well place in order from giving back. And, you know, we do regular surveys, as you can imagine,

of volunteers and others that are supporting us. And it's pretty overwhelming that the numbers that say this has actually helped them in their ongoing recovery, it's helped improve their well-being. And, you know, they see it as a positive. It is always something we're conscious of. We want to make sure that we obviously are not retraumatising individuals and we do have those steps in place. But the feedback we get is overwhelmingly positive

in terms of helping people with their, you know, ongoing kind of journey with this illness. Well, as I say, we're getting some messages from those working in the NHS saying how important they feel this is. And also it's not just the experience, it's not their experience of being unwell, it's also their experience of receiving care and how they can then improve that care. Tom Quinn, Director of External Affairs at BEAT, thank you for your insights. And also Miriam Taylor, a psychotherapist and author who specialises in trauma.

Many messages coming in about what you do as Women's Minister for the day. Obviously, I love what Hannah said. Hi, Emma, if I was Women's Minister, I'd make Women's Hour compulsory listening for everyone in Parliament. Maybe broadcast it over a tannoy. I'll see what we can do.

You know, they can just catch up later though if they're a bit busy. There's a message here though with regards to our guests, Amber Rudd and Annalise Dodds. A message from from k says i'm incredulous amber has the audacity to mention the jungle in calais as you say you say she did absolutely nothing to help vulnerable children they're living in appalling conditions the promises the government made at that time were not upheld many children went missing and of course she she does have the record of that um but that's your view of how the government did overall

and what she knows what the Home Office was doing at the time. But your point of view is interesting to be able to share. We've got another one here from Joan who says, For God's sake, Annalise Dodds, answer the question. What is a woman? Enough of this. It depends. Nonsense. If your answer isn't adult human female, you shouldn't be shadow secretary for women. Woeful performance on international women's day labor is losing women and more about what you would like to do with the power of the

women's minister office if i had the power i'd make the police force 50 50 ratio of women to men no more employment of men until the balance is met not sure how you do it but it would kill two birds with one stone positions of power for women and a point of safety too for women more messages More messages along those lines and other suggestions coming in. I will come back to them if I can. But Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky has just said, although today is International Women's Day, it's impossible to celebrate. As the war continues, of course, and the refugee crisis deepens, he's going to address MPs in Parliament, the UK Parliament, via a video link today. It's a historic moment. It's not been done before like this. And certainly while a leader is fighting for their country. Unlike the European Union, which is allowing Ukrainian refugees to come here on a three year residency without a visa, the UK has retained controls on entry.

And the Prime Minister said it's sensible to have some basic ability to check who's coming in and who isn't. Well, who is responsible for this chaos? Yesterday, the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss denied her department had any responsibility and said it was all down to her colleague, the Home Secretary Priti Patel. And in the Commons, she clashed with Labour's shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper. What on earth is going on? Because if she cannot tell us where this visa centre is en route to Calais, then there is no hope or chance of Ukrainian families being able to find it themselves

on the way to Calais in order to be able to get sanctuary. I will give way to the Home Secretary to clarify. I think, first of all, the honourable lady did not hear what I said earlier on. I actually said that I can confirm we are setting up another VAC en route to Calais. Well, those routes have been subject to much discussion. And when the war in Ukraine was just unfolding, we spoke to Irina Tuleky, who's the chair of the Association of Ukrainian Women in Great Britain. Since then, she's been busy responding to the refugee crisis by representing the Ukrainian community in meetings with the government, talking to both Michael Gove,

the Secretary of State for levelling up, and Priti Patel. I spoke to her just before we came on air and asked her what she makes of the latest government response. I think it's really quite difficult at the moment. The government schemes are only just starting to ramp up. And I think there are logistical difficulties. I think people are finding difficulties with documentation and they may well be finding difficulties in accessing the right information. Because, I mean, the Prime Minister's had to come out and defend what's been reported as the number of refugees refugees have been able to get into this country. It was reported at 50. The Home Office now say it, from the point of view of the community and our Ukrainian churches, we are trying to take all of that on trust. But we are desperately worried,

desperately worried that there are vulnerable women with their children who may not be able to find easily the right routes to come over here. And you've been talking to various government ministers, isn't that right? Yes, yes, we have. They've been, I have to say, they have been unfailingly sympathetic. They've been helpful. They are just ramping up on their side. So I think it's quite clear that it is going to be a bit muddled for a few days yet. But we have no doubt that not only the government, but departmental officials are doing everything they can. But departmental officials, of course, they can be very sympathetic, want to be doing everything, but they're dependent on government policies and government processes. And that, I think, is the area where the government is going to have to look again very urgently. Because these people who are being bombed out of their homes are vulnerable,

they're scared, they're frightened, and they need to get the welcome here that everybody is ready to give them. Do you think the UK should do away with needing visas and move more to a position like Ireland? That would be absolutely fantastic it really would be um i'm not sure we're holding out any great hopes but even without that i think there's a huge amount the government can be doing uh to make the processes easier to make access to the processes easier We have heard stories of people being sent from Calais to Paris. That has to be an absolute nonsense. Well, I'm just also looking at the figures. You know, Germany's received 30,000 Ukrainian refugees. The number in Ireland yesterday was 1,800.

And we're looking, as I say, of a total of 300 in this country. I mean, how does that make you feel? Well, how does it make me feel? We have a Ukrainian community here and together with our churches, we are ready to work with government so that when these people arrive here, we can put our arms around them and help. And we've had lots of offers from help from the British public. a seamless interdepartmental response, an easy process, and help these people get here as fast as they can. But I suppose people are confused about why this is still taking so long

when other countries have been able to do and welcome those numbers that I'm talking about. Have you got any sense? I know you say there's been sympathy from ministers, but have you got any sense of what the issues are? I think the issues are is that the whole government process is only now ramping up.

So we were late, this country, you think? Contingency planning could have been quicker, I think. Yes, because we should say, you know, in your role that I'm talking to you in as the chair of the Association of Ukrainian Women in Great Britain, you're a volunteer, aren't you? Yes, and there are hundreds of us who are volunteers. We're not a community that has hordes and hordes of paid staff. And at the moment, we've got hundreds of volunteers all over the country who are busy collecting things, collecting funds, helping the people who are still stuck in Ukraine, who will have no option but to stay. And what we want to do now is to put that same energy into welcoming and helping refugees settle.

For that, we need the government processes to be working seamlessly. We need the government to be providing us with information, good information. Are they not right now? As I said, they understand what they need to do. But it's just not happening. They're ramping up to do it. Yes, I suppose it's one thing that there's great consternation

about how to actually stop this war, but there's even bigger consternation perhaps about how to help people quickly. Yes, that's right. Well, there are two things that I think we are particularly concerned about. One is the position of these vulnerable people as they travel across Europe. And what we don't want is for glitches in the process to lead those people to being exploited. And as you say, many of them women and children. Indeed, which makes it, which makes it, I think, even more urgent that there are good and seamless processes put in place to help these women. God forbid that they fall into the hands of the scammers in Calais

and God forbid that they arrive here and are isolated without very easy access and very sympathetic access to the services that they'll need. I'm just mindful I'm talking to you on International Women's Day. And actually, that's quite a big deal normally in Ukraine, isn't it? You know, women receiving flowers. I've been reading up on what happens typically. And it's such a horribly stark contrast as to what will be happening instead.

That's absolutely right. And I think especially on this International Women's Day, every woman who's suffering in Ukraine, every woman who's walking around with a child in one hand and a rifle in the other, and every woman around the world who's volunteering doesn't need flowers. They just need government agencies to help them, to help them get to safety and to do everything they can

to make sure that the vulnerable are protected. It's an incredibly stark image that you've just painted a child in one hand a rifle in the other. I've seen the verified picture of a woman on a zebra crossing in a cave with her child holding her child's hand, but with a rifle over her shoulder. And no woman should ever be put in that position. Have you gotten used to this yet? I know that's a very strange question perhaps, but what has the last couple of weeks been like for you

and for the community of Ukrainians here in the UK? Have you come to terms with the reality of this? No, I don't think we'll ever come to terms with this. The attack on Ukraine was absolutely unprovoked. We see new brutality every day. It's very clear that civilians, civilian infrastructure is being targeted. And every day brings a new heartbreak, a new image where you just want to break down and cry. But I think Ukrainian women, in fact, the whole of our Ukrainian community is very resilient and will carry on doing everything they possibly can to help the situation, both with humanitarian and medical aid to Ukrainians in Ukraine, but also to welcome and help those poor women and children who will be arriving here.

Just finally, President Zelensky is going to address MPs in the House of Commons via video link today. It's a historic request. It's going ahead. You know, also very hard to put this into context, I suppose, and respond to that. But what is your view of that and your response to that happening? Do you hope that will have impact in, as you say, ramping up the response? I think everything. President Zelensky has stepped up to become a real leader. And around the world, everyone has nothing but respect for him. he has done I think more than anyone could have expected to urge western governments to give Ukraine the help that they need and he's not been afraid to speak out where he's thought that that

help is inadequate so what I hope is that his direct appeal to Parliament will produce not only thoughts and prayers, because we've had quite Ukrainian Women Now I mentioned right at the beginning of the programme whether you thought motherhood got enough recognition well one woman didn't so she set about creating a People's Choice Awards called the Glow Mama Awards marking the achievements of mothers on social media and offline as well of course This weekend gone marked the fourth annual awards

and Agnes Argypong is the founder and Safiya Varadji was named most inspiring mama at the awards. And both of them join me now. Agnes, why did you want to set this up? Well, I actually, it wasn't my intention to really set up an award and for it to grow year on year. I was at home. I was breastfeeding. I was suffering postnatal depression, and I just felt somewhat lost. And I know there's a lot of ills that get spoken about when we talk about social media. But for me, social media saved my life. I didn't have access to my friends.

I couldn't really step out of the house. So I just got lost in the web, in Instagram. I always say I got a PhD in Instagram studies at the time because I was scrolling on everybody's pages I was 142 weeks down in in people's um in people's pictures and through that I came across phenomenal women and mothers doing amazing things and for me like now four years on I like him and I call it digital peer support. I found a whole community of mums doing amazing things online and showing their authentic stories.

It wasn't just all polished, you know. It was mums who were talking about their postnatal depression, mums who were talking about that feeling of isolation. And because I was always, like, stalking everyone on social media, I said, you know what, I need to set about and make my own platform so I can justify why I'm always on Instagram one baby breastfeeding and my mum are free so I'd have my youngest breastfeeding and the phone in my other hand and it's like what are you always doing on the phone and in my darkest times every time I used to cry I used to cry a lot um after the birth of

my second and my third child I used to say this affirmation to myself which would be glow mama so it literally was my affirmation and I said okay I'm going to set about I'm going to make this page called the glow mama awards and all of a sudden all these other mothers just came out of the woodworks to say oh my god there's an award for motherhood we need an award where can i vote where can i nominate they have they really have and and you you have created a community sophia you're you're a part of this you've also got your own community a large following online both you uh and your partner the the former footballer ashley came because you have been doing some incredible work for charity tell us about your charity hello there I hope you're well thank you guys for having me on today it's a pleasure to be on and to be able to speak about our incredible foundation and for us as a charity we're doing

everything that we can and as long as childhood cancer is considered to be rare, there won't be enough funding going towards new treatments, towards early diagnosis, towards training GPs and their staff to spot cancer in children when it's still curable. And in the UK alone, there are five children diagnosed with cancer every day. Four children. Makes me feel emotional. Four children die of cancer every week. And I should say, if I may at this point, that this charity, this foundation, and in Tell Us the Name, of course, was set up in your late daughter's honour and she died at eight months old, which many people have followed your story,

but for some of our listeners who won't have done. Yeah. Unfortunately, as I leave for an absolute tough battle of leukaemia story but for some of our listeners who won't have done yeah unfortunately azalea fought an absolute tough battle of leukemia which is just such an aggressive childhood cancer and it's not rare we get told all the time that childhood cancer is rare and it really isn't and azalea shown so much strength and courage and she inspired me and ashley to continue her legacy for the azalea foundation and that's what we continue to do and it's just helping other mothers and other parents around the world um to actually see that they can step up and have that strength and courage and believe in themselves and give their children so much

positive energy around such a tough situation and using that pain and turning it into purpose is what we're doing every day. You've done some incredible things, raised an amazing amount of money and also I know that in light of this award but also your day-to-day life, that being a mother, actively being a mother is still a very important part of your identity. A hundred percent. I feel like if you've lost a child, then you will always still be a mother. So I go down to Azalea's garden every day. I make sure I change the water in the flowers. You know, that's still me being like an angel mummy so it's kind of helping other people tune into them areas of where you feel like you can do your part still for your child and to make Azalea proud and look down you know this charity that we're doing in Azalea's name is so she can look down and be proud of myself and Ashley as her parents and feel like we're doing something to help the other

children and families fighting fearlessly every day. And as Agnes said, how important has the online community been for you in trying to cope? Our community has been our backbone. It's a supportive army. And like Agnes says, you can be on social media, looking all the time through your phone, and to know that our platform is being used to help so many people and to have that support of the community behind us. Because without the community, without each and every person that stops me in Asda or in Tesco's or I'm out in the gym, wherever I'm doing, then people are our backbone.

And without everybody and the people and the army behind us, then we wouldn't be able to continue in Azalea's legacy. And it means so much that everybody believes in what we're doing. Well, Safiya, thank you so much for talking to us. Agnes, thank you to you. And thank you to all of you for your company this morning. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

T's and C's apply. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.