Woman's Hour - Women and Gambling. Interim Mayor of Liverpool Wendy Simon. True Stories from a Life in Forensic Medicine

Episode Date: January 26, 2021

Women and Gambling.Pauline and Derek Tremain are a couple who work together, running a small business from home in Kent. It's not your run of the mill business however, they provide a very specialist service called 'body mapping' to police forces up and down the country, painstakingly recreating murder injuries with 3D imaging for juries to look at. They talk to Emma about their memoir How to Solve a Murder - True Stories from a Life in Forensic Medicine. Elaine Paige is an award-winning star of the West End and Broadway. . What, you may ask, would such a woman have to worry about? Well if you've been reading the Radio Times or the papers recently, you'll know that her height - just 4 foot 11 has made her feel horribly insecure throughout her life and caused her to be both literally and metaphorically overlooked. We hear from Elizabeth Carr-Ellis from Canterbury who's the same height and knows exactly how she feels. Wendy Simon found herself unexpectedly running a city from her living room in December, as Interim Mayor of Liverpool. She explain how she took the reins in such a challenging time.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. We want to start today's programme by just taking a moment to think of the estimated 10,000 pregnant unmarried women who were treated as fallen women and forced to live in the institutions

which became known as the Magdalene laundries on the island of Ireland right through the 20th century. The last one of those places closed its doors as recently as the 90s. Today, the leaders of the Northern Ireland Executive will make a decision on whether there will be a public inquiry into the treatment of these women, which their families and descendants have long campaigned for. They want answers, accountability and justice.

We will continue to follow the story here on Woman's Hour, but wanted to mark this moment at the start of today's programme and think about these women's lives. On today's programme, what is it like to become the mayor of a city with ten minutes' notice, a legal investigation hanging over your head and a pandemic raging all from your front room? Liverpool Mayor Wendy Simons joins us to tell us what's been going on there. And Napoleon's syndrome for women, does it exist? Perhaps it's affected you.

What's your take on it? The 4'11 singer Elaine Page has spoken out about the effect of being short and how that has impacted her life. But how about you? You can text us here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for those exact costs. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or you can email us through our website. Many messages already coming in on social media let me just read you this one from kath who says i'm five foot two i worked as a project manager surrounded by men all much taller than me i made a point of having everybody seated before any conversation happened so i could make eye contact and be on the same level it's hard to be authoritative when you're looking up at someone. That's Kath's experience. What about yours? We're all ears. Do get in touch. But let's talk first of all on today's programme about gambling. In lockdown, there has been an increase in the number of people doing it. But when it comes to women, they say they're being targeted more and more through the likes of pink adverts

and the offers of spa trips if they spend more and more. And when it comes to getting help, it just isn't tailored for them and their needs. Yesterday afternoon, MPs from all parties focused specifically on how women are being affected by their own gambling and how their patterns perhaps differ from men. Our reporter Melanie Abbott listened in. Melanie, what did we learn? Yeah, this was a meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on gambling-related harm.

And the MPs heard from five different women with their own stories of how gambling has affected their lives. And they really spoke about it being a mental health issue, a form of self-harm. And some of the most moving testimony was from a woman whose daughter took her own life because of her gambling addiction. Kimberley Wadsworth died in June 2019. Her mum, Kay, spoke to me about when she first realised her daughter was gambling. She'd never got any money. I called her my Dr Jekyll and Miss Hyde. That is two sides of Kimberley.

And the Mr Hyde was the one that kept the secret of the gambling addiction. Did you realise the amount of money that was involved? No. When did you come to realise that? Well, I sold my house in Leeds to help pay off her gambling debt. That's how serious and how desperate she'd become. And yes, I did have a little bit of pot of money, but it left me homeless. Were you ever able to say to Kimberley at the time you were discussing selling the property that it would leave you homeless? They see no reasoning. They just need to get the next £20, £10, £ pounds, 100 pounds to gamble.

Can you tell me about how you found out about her death? I'd arranged for Kimberley to go see a clinical hypnotherapist. She was petrified about going to this appointment. I sent her the text message and I said, please let me know how you feel after. And the next message I got, she said said it's too late for me mum. Gosh what did you think when you received that text? No just I just went into a blind panic. And I tried bringing a bag. She wouldn't pick up the phone.

But at five o'clock that afternoon, I got the dreadful news that they found her. And then she put the Perona Life Support Machine. And I had to wait till 1.30 that morning to find out that they switched the machine off I can't imagine how difficult that must have been yeah and ironically I'd actually put on the tv and it was a gambling site and there was a young girl and said, you want to see that ball going round on that roulette, so here we go.

And I'll tell you, at the time, but I could have taken that television and just thrown it off the balcony. It was an actual show? Yeah, they were on all night. You can gamble all day long, all night long. You can gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble. Kay Wadsworth there talking about her daughter, Kimberly. Incredibly sad and very sobering to hear.

Mel, tell us more about those women doing the gambling. Yeah, all of them talked about racking up huge debts. A couple of them have ended up on the wrong side of the law. One ended up in prison for nine weeks for stealing £1,900 that she gambled with. Another, Nicole, she's waiting to see what her sentence will be. She has been found guilty of fraud. She should hear next week. She told me how she began gambling. I had started to use a lot of vouchers that had come through the post. I literally would go straight online and before I'd known it, I'd found myself spending hours and hours. You know, I found myself literally holding a laptop, gambling throughout the night until I'd

fall asleep. I would even wake up in the morning and think, did that happen? I would lie to my parents. Nobody had a clue. Come the evening, being a mother, I would have dinner on the table, my son already bathed and ready for bed. And then I would tell my mother that I was going out to work and my mother would come and stay with me. I would go out for the entire night on my own, sitting in a casino, losing lots and lots of money. I had become completely and utterly addicted. How much money did you spend? Shamefully, in excess of probably £200,000 in a very, very short period of time.

Wow. What kind of period of time? Probably over three years. Where did that money come from? Well, I had had at the time my own savings. I'd always earned money through work. But a lot of the time that money didn't even hit my account. It would be straight into gambling. And it did lead to criminal activity in the sense of me committing fraud. And I can't go into the whole

case at the moment. But I did spend, lose, I'll say, other people's money. I was in recital from family, friends, and including strangers, £45,000. And I would say £20,000 possibly plus had gone on to gambling. It's been three years now almost. I'd spent a lot of time desperate, desperate and attempting to take my life. I feel sick that I had let people down, that I had lied. I was in complete and utter denial that I had an addiction. I had been in a trance for so long. What would you say to those who would say gambling can be an addiction, but it's up to you to know what is right and what is wrong? When you're in the midst of your gambling,

there is no moral compass. When you're on slots, in particular, playing roulettes or any of the machines, you are so completely and utterly gone. There is nothing that you can think about other than gambling. Nicole, talking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott, who's still with us. What evidence is there, if any, that women are being targeted more? I couldn't find any specific research on this, but Gamcare, which is the charity providing support to gamblers, has seen an increase from 32% to 35% of the numbers of women contacting them. And that's over a period from 2018 to 2020. Thank you very much for that Melanie

Abbott there. Well there was one story that we were astounded by which we think very much deserves a wider hearing. Michelle Sittinghurst is going to join us to tell us about what happened to her. She lost her and her family's home because of gambling. Michelle, thank you for talking to us today. Good morning. Thank you for having me. How did it all begin for you? You know, I feel like I fell into it. But I think basically I used to do the lottery online because it was easier. And then I max um spend the maximum permissible on scratch cards online which are very very quick um i've always liked games um and from there um i ended up opening an account and started to gamble on uh and again i'll call them games but they're very fast um and uh i never i've never been in

into a bookies um this was all from home i should say anyone listening to this if you feel you can share what happened to you and how you went down this road 84844 is the number you need to text or on social media we're at bbc women's. There will be many people, Michelle, nodding along to what you're saying, even if they don't feel they can get in touch. How much did you lose? We'll get into the detail of how in just a moment, but have you calculated it? Yes, I actually, in 2019, I actually gathered and accessed all my data

because I didn't actually have a clue. But in total, it was just short of 550,000. Wow. And is that money you had to lose? Gosh, no. No, absolutely not. No, not if I'm honest, not not a penny of it, really. It was no, I absolutely could not afford to lose a penny of it.

The most serious part of this as it as it was escalating is the fact that you sold the family home without telling your partner. Correct. How did that happen? Basically, I'd pulled my mother from care due to neglect. She had dementia. So our family home wasn't suitable when I moved us all to a property that meant that my daughter could still be a child, but also that I had an annex so that I could take care of mum. So basically, we decided that we wouldn't move back to that area. We needed to be close to my daughter's school. We put the house on the market. We found a buyer very quickly.

What I didn't tell Chris is that actually the property had sold and completed. I kept lying and making excuses. And of course, he trusted me. We've been together 30 years. And you used the money to gamble? Yes, every penny. Every penny? Pretty much, yeah. Awful. he's still with you isn't he

he is he is he did um he did leave for a while um when i yeah i fell apart and he left for a while with my daughter um but yes he is still with me and he does trust me. And thankfully, I'm four years down the line now. And, you know, he knows that I would never gamble again. Do you think it's different for women than men? How do you think it's different, perhaps? Well, obviously, it's quite hard to answer because I've spoken to men and women. What really seems to hit me from speaking to women is the speed. They seem very afraid to tell anyone, you know, because I just, I couldn't understand it myself. But I was so afraid of, you know, being judged.

And I think that women may sometimes have trauma in the background. So do men, of course. And I think that many may use it to escape what's going on in their lives. Thank you for talking to us today. It's not easy for you to go back over and talk publicly, but I'm very happy to hear that you're on a different path now. Michelle Sissinghurst. Oh, very much. Thank you. Thank you for your time.

We did invite the gambling minister onto the programme today, but he declined. We can now speak to Bridget Simmons, who's the chairman of the Betting and Gaming Council, set up a year ago by the gambling industry to help the industry improve the way it handles problem gamblers. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Should Michelle have been able to gamble her house away effectively or close to, as she puts it, £550,000? Well, as you rightly say, the Betting and Gaming Council was set up a year ago and we were set up specifically about raising standards. And we were very clear when we launched with 22 different pledges that we had not been best in class, we had not been intervening enough. What I will say is that we are now doing very much more. We've implemented a number of policies from restrictions on advertising to a ban on credit cards. Every single company will be sending

out to their customers safer gambling tools. And one of the things I think we need to do from everything that I've heard this morning is encouraging people to take more note of those. Safer gambling? Hang on, safer gambling? Is that not an oxymoron for somebody like Michelle? 30 million people who gamble in this country, the vast majority of them, do it safely. And for them, it is something that they enjoy doing it

and they do it within their means. But there is help available. You've already mentioned Gamcare, which has a 24-hour helpline. If you don't want to gamble, you can sign up to Gamstop, which means that you won't receive any information and you can't spend any money. All the banks are now working with us, so you can sign up and save. Hang on a minute.

There's a full... Sorry. While, you know, there'll be listeners shouting at the radio saying, you've got to take responsibility for yourself, there'll definitely be that school of thought. But everything you're saying relies on the addict doing what you're saying. And when on earth have people who are addicted to things

think, do you know what, I'd love to stop. I'll just subscribe to that thing that tells me to stop. They're not going to do that, are they? For instance, the question really is, why on earth should gamblers turn to the gambling industry to help them with gambling? Because one of the issues that we have to think about, this is a worldwide industry. This is not an industry that's just available in this country. I went on to the GamStop. I put it into Google yesterday afternoon. What it came up with was how to get round not gambling safely in this country with my members who abide by rules and have very clear standards. And we already have evidence that there's a black market.

PwC did a report a year ago that showed 200 people were using it, 200,000. There's a lot more evidence required on that. So let's not go down that particular route. Let's deal with what we know exists. No, no, I'm sorry. I asked you, why should the gambling industry be the ones that gamblers who are addicted trust with getting them to stop gambling? When we know from the House of Lords Time for Action report in July 2020

that problem gamblers, you mentioned lots of people, millions of people who do gamble within their means, but problem gamblers, wait for this, contribute 25% of the profits to the industry. It's not in your interest to get them to stop gambling, is it? It is in the interest of every single one of my members to ensure that their customers do not spend below their means. It is actually, though, quite difficult to share information between companies. I think it's a discussion we need to have as part of the gambling review, which you

know is going to be undertaken in this country. We need to talk to the information commissioner about how if somebody gambles with one company, and I talked to Melanie yesterday, I know that a number of these people don't just gamble with one company, they gamble with a number of them. But of course, you can't share information with another company if someone is not gambling. But that may be the case. No, but that may be the case. But you're not going to be doing what needs to be done to stop people like Michelle from gambling her house. We are doing that because now I would hope that before Michelle got ever near that situation, that someone would have been closing her accounts, they would have been intervening,

they would have been, this is physical intervention. I have sat next to one of our companies when they're there 24-7, they are looking at their customers, if they see there are markers of harm, as we would describe them, they will intervene and they will ring them up. And if those people are not responding, then they will close down those accounts. But I've also sat, I mean, in this country for the last 20 years, the gambling industry has been the sole supporter of research education and treatment 10 million a year now 100 million for our bigger members nhs is now providing some help they've got they've put 200 million towards it they've set up some new centres i've been to the one in leeds

unfortunately so much of this with a really serious case is a mental health issue we've got to do more i know but i just i don't think people are going to be thinking, oh, thanks gambling industry. Thanks so much for setting all that up. They might just be thinking, close down. We don't need it. We don't want it. Can I ask you specifically, I've got very little time left. Targeting women with pink adverts. There'll be way easy target men, but we're women's are. Targeting women with pink adverts, promises of spa trips. I've been having a look at it this morning. VIP sort of days, things that really tap into what may women traditionally want. Are you going to stop doing that? We have a very clear now VIP code.

It's requirement of everybody in this country. You can only be a higher value customer unless you sign up to something very particular. It has to go all the way to a board to approve it. And we have reduced the numbers by half during that time. So I would hope that many of these things will not be happening in future. But there is so much more, Emma, that we need to do as an industry. And we're determined to do that. Well, we look forward to talking to you again, perhaps also to the gambling minister and to people who've been affected. Bridget Simmons, the chairman of the Betting and Gaming Council. Thank you very much for your time. That's

an industry-backed group. We should make that distinction. A message here. As a former female gambler, when I accepted I had an issue it was difficult to know where to go. I felt very alone. And I work for Gordon Moody on a programme specifically tailored for women. Support there. That's something that's just come in.

Support is there and progress is being made to offer different support options to women. And Steve Russell says, women definitely need support groups that specifically target women's needs in respect to gambling. Gamblers Anonymous welcomes women, but it's extremely male orientated. Keep your messages coming in on 84844.

You've also been getting in touch about our next discussion. Shall we have some music first of all? I have a new life and I mustn't give in. When the dawn comes, tonight will be a memory too. And a new day will begin. That is, of course, a clip from the song Memory From Cats, performed by Elaine Page. Elaine is an award-winning star, of course, of the West End and Broadway,

a defining voice of the musical genre and, of course, a very popular presenter here on Radio 2, here at the BBC, I should say, Elaine Page on Sundays. What, you may ask, would such a woman have to worry about? Well, if you've been reading her interview in the Radio Times, you may know that her height, she is 4 foot 11, if you believe the papers, it's actually 5 foot on her agent's website,

but her height has made her feel horribly insecure throughout her life and caused her to be both literally and metaphorically overlooked, she says. Perhaps this has happened to you. As I say, many of you have already been in touch. I'll come back to those messages. Are you also a shorter woman? Has it held you back in any way? Elizabeth Carr-Ellis from Canterbury responded to us on Twitter this morning

on this very subject. Good morning. Good morning. Nice to speak to you. It's good to talk to you. How tall are you? Can I start with that? I'm five foot and a teeny little bit it used to be five foot and three quarters of an inch but now that I'm getting older I'm shrinking a little bit so it's five foot and a tiny little bit on a good day a woman very close to me uh is five foot one and three quarters and if I ever missed out the three quarters I would be in a lot of trouble.

Oh yeah, that three quarters is very important. Size does matter. What's it been like for you? Because Elaine gives an account of it, it's sort of blighting her existence in some ways. It is hard. I mean, it sounds very funny, but it is hard when you go to shops, for example,

and you try on a lovely jacket and the sleeves are halfway down the floor and you have to roll them up or you're thinking well I just can't get them I was saying it's like I seem to spend my whole life as if I'm wearing those mittens that you used to have string attached around through the sleeves because it just the sleeves just hang on so it's like having those little mittens which just makes you feel even more like a child that's the worst thing people treat you as if you're a child my best friend is um about five foot seven five foot eight and she bends down to talk to me no as if I was a toddler I Well, like bends her knees to kind of.

Exactly. She bends down. Oh, if we're having photographs taken, she'll bend down to be more my height. And I'm just very, I know I'm only five foot and a little bit, but please, you know, you're going to be tying up my shoelaces next. Have you said something to her? I have. And she says it's because I'm so little and cute and she just likes it I think it makes her feel very maternal and protective we obviously of course here was our focus on on the female experience we have had some messages from men you know talking about how hard it is to be a short man I wonder what you think of the difference between the two I do think it

would be much worse to be a short man because I can get away with the little, you know, oh, she's little and cute. I can go into Zara Kids to buy my clothes. Do you do that? Which is great. I do, yeah. The jumper I'm wearing is from Marks and Spencer's children.

It was the exact same as an adult's one. But the trouble is there's a lot of unicorns and I'm Daddy's favourite little girl t-shirts when you go into the children's section. Yeah, I don't know how old you are, but that might not be floating your boat. Yeah, when you're in your early 50s, definitely not. Men can't do that. And there is this huge, big stigma for men to be big, to be butch, you know, to be Chris Hemsworth. And so if you're a little Ronnie Corbett, yeah, I can imagine it would be worse.

What would you like to say? You've got the whole of Woman's Hour Radio 4 here at your disposal. To people who perhaps either bend down or in the workplace have treated you differently, what would you like to say to them about what you don't want them to do? Please just don't treat me like I'm a child.

You know, I'm a 53 year old successful woman and I should be treated exactly the same as somebody who's five foot nine and five foot ten. I'm sure they would never treat Elle Macpherson the way that they treat me. And supermarkets, please don't put your bargains on the top shelf. That must be incredibly annoying. Do you find getting the steps that are there for those who are working there to try and get involved so you can reach them? I have done sometimes. Sometimes you're just left standing there, like, you know, please, please, sir, I want some crisps off the top shelf.

Please help me. So you're left wondering. Thank you so much for taking us into this world and this space and letting us know what we shouldn't be doing. I don't think I've done any of that, but I'll definitely check myself at five foot six. Elizabeth Carr Ellis, that's not a brag. Sorry. Thank you very much for talking to us. So many messages coming in on this. One saying people love to draw attention to it as if I haven't noticed, says this tweet. I've also found that people don't take you as seriously sometimes.

And that's at their peril. At just over five foot, I'm happy being petite. It's others who have the issue. There you go. Keep those messages coming in, please. 84844. Now, most of us have had to get used to working from home in the last year if we've still of course got our work or we're not furloughed but imagine suddenly being put in

charge of a whole city at a moment's notice and having to do it from your living room. Wendy Simon has been doing just that as interim mayor of Liverpool. She was thrust into the position when in December the current mayor Joe, was arrested by Merseyside police on suspicion of conspiracy to commit bribery and witness intimidation alongside four other men from the city as part of an investigation into building and developing contracts in Liverpool. He denies any wrongdoing. At the same time, coronavirus cases in the city were rising exponentially.

Wendy has been running the city out of the living room of the house that she shares with her partner, daughter, son-in-law and two-year-old granddaughter ever since. She was told that she would be taking over just ten minutes before having to lead a council meeting. I asked her what her reaction was when she heard about Jo Anderson's arrest. I mean, I think like any bad news that you receive, you know, there's that initial

shock um you know sort of obviously very limited information at that point you know then you I had to go you know and do the cabinet so I think adrenaline sets in you know and you you're really focused on the tasks that you need to do at that point. You know, at the same time, lots of different questions going round your head. I'd served on his cabinet, you know, for 10 years. You know, I've known him in the Labour Party for longer than that. So, you know, it was a huge shock. And he denies all wrongdoing, we should say, at this point.

You know, there is a major police investigation going on. The government's also appointed an inspector to look at what's happened. That will come back, that report, in March. And depending on the outcome, there's still a chance that the government could order your council, the council, to be run by its own commissioner. It in effect special measures. Are you scared about it? Are you worried about your council that you've worked so hard on potentially being taken over by the government? Oh, obviously, that is something we would try to avoid at all costs.

I mean, certainly we feel, you know, we have measures in place. We'd already embarked on an improvement plan in the council that we're continuing with. We've shared that with the inspector. We'll continue with that work. And obviously, yeah, it is not something that we would want to happen. Do you think it will happen knowing what you know of the council? I hope not. Because I think sort of even before the inspector came in, sort of the improvement

plan that we had outlined, you know, to the government, you know, was very detailed. And certainly we're really open to working in collaboration with people, not just the government. You've got to work in collaboration with a Conservative government. That's not something you're used to doing necessarily. I don't think we always agree with their policy, but I think any local government has to work in collaboration with the national government. They're our main funder.

You know, we might not agree with their policies politically, but actually we do need to work in collaboration to show, you know, that we are running effectively and also to make sure we get the best possible, you know, support and services, you know, for our constituents. And it's your constituents that I really want to talk about here at this point, because trust is so important. There's a government investigation, a police investigation going on. You're the mayor, you've been left holding this. How do you even begin to get a grip on all of that, Wendy, and take the people with you so they still trust you? I think we have to be open and honest. We have to keep people informed of what's happening.

Obviously, it's really difficult when there's a police investigation because we don't fully know what those concerns are. I mean, all of our meetings at the council are public meetings. People can put questions. You know, obviously, during COVID, they can't come along, but they can, you know, they're streamed online, they can look. And it's about getting that message out there. But I think for most people, building that trust with them

is about what you do rather than what you say. Have you noticed the mood sour towards you and towards your council since the arrest of Joe Anderson, who is a major figure in Liverpool? He is a really major figure in Liverpool. I wouldn't say, obviously, there's some noise on Twitter and social media that you would get, but I wouldn't say a huge amount of negativity, certainly not in the post box, you know, coming in to the council, the email box, etc. I think sort of, you know, it's been a huge blow for the city, but, you know, we've had huge blows in the past,

and I think we have to look forward, we have to focus on the job that we've got to do as a city, you know, battling COVID-19, you know, the austerity that we've got to do as a city, battling COVID-19, the austerity that we've faced. And we have to ensure that we are delivering those important services for our residents. You're effectively running Liverpool as mayor from your front room at the moment. I know you've got a busy household. You've got a little grandchild running around.

There's a lot going on like there is for lots of people. I mean, what are your stress levels like at the moment? And I just wonder how you feel about some who may say this is this is another example of a woman having to step in where where a man's had to check out in politics. I think working from home is is stressful for people. Obviously, it has advantages for some I think the responsibilities you know trying to get that work-life balance you know when your work and environment is within the home uh particularly for people who have to home school may have caring responsibilities as well I'm really lucky obviously as you said I do have a granddaughter running around but I'm not her

sole carer so you know sort of I do have to come in and shut the living room door and say nanny's going to work and she's got meetings now. So, you know, largely I'm not disturbed. And that second point I asked about, some people say a woman's got to step in here where a man's been checked out of politics and sort of figure out a really difficult time. What do you say to that? I mean, I was the designated deputy. It was my role to step up, you know, and certainly I was prepared to step up for my city. You know, I have a great love for the city that I was born in,

I've lived in, and I'm very proud to serve in. And for me, you know, it's a real privilege to do that but also there's that sense of responsibility of that you know we have really important work to do you know we've been doing some of the leading work on Covid and that needs to continue, we've got our budget to get through and we've got our inclusive growth plan and city plan that we need to deliver for residents so for me, that is really important. Well, whatever strain might come with running the city from home hasn't put Wendy off. She's announced she's running to take on the role permanently as mayor of Liverpool.

The election is due to take place in May and nearer the time you'll be able to find the full list of candidates standing on the BBC News website. I should also say with regard to our previous conversation about gambling, a lot of you also getting in touch on that front, we will have a full list of support websites and call lines, action lines up on our website on Women's Hour shortly. Now Pauline and Derek Tremayne are a couple who work together running a small business from home in Kent. It's not your run-of-the-mill business however because they provide a very specialist service called body mapping to police forces up and down the country, painstakingly recreating murder injuries with 3D imaging for juries to look at. Their collaboration started back in the early 80s when Pauline joined a team of pathologists and forensic scientists

that included Derek at Guy's Hospital in London. She was the department secretary but soon was getting involved in a lot more than her job description would suggest. They've now written a memoir called How to Solve a Murder, True Stories from a Life in Forensic Medicine. And I should warn you, some of the everyday lives of a forensic team, it's pretty gruesome. A warm welcome to you both, Pauline and Derek. Thank you for joining us. Yes, good morning. Good morning. Thank you, Emma. Let me start with you, Pauline, if I can. It joining us. Yes, good morning. Good morning. Thank you, Emma. Let me start with you, Pauline, if I can. It turned out to be a pretty full-on job for a 19-year-old medical secretary.

When did you discover you had a strong enough stomach for it? Yes, I think I'd always been interested ever since we were at college. And we were taken out in the field and sort of went and visited departments. And I could see things that were pickled in the jars we went to the welcome museum for instance and they had exhibits and that kind of thing made me think oh I'd love to know more about these things so I think it was quite early

on in my training as a 17 year old. Derek what was your role at that time it I have to say the book starts with quite an amazing example from your your working life yes and just actually before you say anything i really do want to warn people if you if you don't want to hear something uh you know quite quite difficult in some ways i'll probably keep it sanitized no no but but it's very important the work you were doing um and i'll let you say but you know the book does start with a detail around around a woman who'd been murdered and what you were asked to do. That's right. Yes. And tell us more about your work from that perspective or perhaps that story.

You want that story? Well, basically, I was chief technician at the time and the pathologist, Kevin Lee from Australia, came in. I was just getting ready to go home. I put my motorbike helmet on. And Kevin Lee walked down the corridor carrying a rather ominous bucket. And I said, well, I'm off home now, Kevin. He said, no, you're not. He said, we've got a job to do.

So basically in the bucket was the skin from a woman's head. She was laid on a railway line and she was hit by an Intercity 125 train. So what Kevin Lee wanted to do was reconstruct the head. So it was quite a gruesome thing we had to do. I found an old beaker and then from the brains that we've got behind us, they were in buckets, they were quite firm, so we had to get something to mould the skin around so we mounted the brain on a beaker and then got the skin wrapped it around the brain and then painstakingly sewed it all together which took several hours and the point of this work of course is to help the police solve crimes that's right right, yes. And very important work, but not for the faint-hearted.

I mean, how did you have the stomach for it? How did you cope with it, Derek, as a line of work? Well, when you work in an environment like that, it becomes part of the norm, basically. It took a lot of banter, a lot of joking around. That's how we used to cope. We was always pranking each other and stuff in the department. But that's how you cope with it. Well, it's not perhaps, Pauline, the most regular place for two people to get together

in a romantic way. And you didn't actually get together until years later. You describe one day when you went to Derek's office with a message and you found him handling a maggoty human head. I suppose if you don't laugh, you'll cry. Yes, it was a shock because it was moving and I knew it was a part of the body and it was in a plastic bag and quite bloody as well. And I couldn't tell what it was, only that it was very difficult for him to hold up out of the sink and whatever he was doing I couldn't really see at that point but then as I was about to leave that room after I'd given him the message I noticed movement and so I asked about what it was and he said it was a head and I thought oh that must be today's joke some you know a disembodied head that's moving very funny funny, ha ha. But he actually showed me and unwrapped it.

And of course, it was a human head. Very hard for him to hold because they are very heavy in weight. And yes, it had maggots everywhere. But actually, he'd introduced the maggots to it. And that was the way of him removing the flesh from it so that the pathologist can actually catalog the injuries and see in more detail what's happened with the bone beneath. So that's the whole purpose. And within two or three days, he told me, the maggots would have taken all the flesh off.

And then he'd be able to look at the detail and pass it on to the pathologist. Wow. What did you two talk about on your first date? Yes, it does seem to have a friend to Kellerman. My goodness. I'm going to bring that up at dinner this evening with my husband and see what he has to say. Yeah, just introduce some maggots and it's quite useful. Okay, so let's, in terms of how you kind of lived your lives alongside this world, your world of work,

did you tell people what you did for a living, both of you? Did you talk about it with people? Sort of, you know. Obviously, a lot of the stuff we couldn't for legal reasons. Yes. But, you know, we used to sort of tell people what I did, but not go into great detail. And also there's the emotional side of it.

You know, when you go home, you really want to switch off. And by the time you get there, you've walked a bit, you've travelled a bit, you've read a bit, and then you feel that you're in a different mindset. And so to go back to it wouldn't be advisable, not in the evening, not before bed. The book is called How to Solve a Murder, the true stories from a life in forensic medicine. I found it absolutely fascinating. We've just given a glimpse there. You now do body mapping. Pauline, can you explain what that is how it came about briefly yes actually um derek was asked to do something to shield some injuries from tv viewers of the bbc horizon program this was some years ago when

a nurse had been murdered in saudi arabia and two other nurses had been accused and uh dr ian west from our department was actually asked to give an opinion and to talk about the case on television and he wanted something to demonstrate the injuries but nothing at that time was available. It would have been shown the photographs of injury which for obvious reasons he didn't want to show to upset the family or to upset the viewing public so he asked Derek if he would mind putting together something and Derek came up with some software that he could do injuries with and just to kind of put blogs really on a diagram that he found um and it took off from there so

very different from what we do now of course 20 years later but um well thank you thank you very much for taking us into your world then and now derek and pauline tremaine all the best to you how to solve a murder is the book and very important work it is and remains to be that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one a new podcast series from bbc 4. In the first stage of a poltergeist haunting, the entity will confine itself to making noise, as if it's testing its victims. The Battersea Poltergeist.

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