Woman's Hour - Women and heat, IVF add-ons, Costume designer Sandy Powell

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

Why are women’s bodies impacted by heat differently to men’s? What can women do to cool down? Nuala McGovern is joined by GP Dr Amir Khan, Alyx Gorman, lifestyle editor of Guardian Australia, who shares how women are coping with increasingly extreme temperatures, and the practical strategies they’re using to keep safe and comfortable.A new study has found that the majority of IVF add-ons assessed either show no effect on fertility or remain inconclusive due to limited or low-quality data. Nuala speaks to author of the study Dr Sarah Lensen from the University of Melbourne, broadcaster Hannah Vaughan Jones who went through 15 rounds of IVF and Professor Tim Child from the UK IVF regulator, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA). Sandy Powell has won three Oscars and is the most BAFTA nominated costume designer of all time for her work on iconic films including Shakespeare in Love, Gangs of New York, Mary Poppins Returns and The Favourite. Now she is turning her attention to the next generation of designers with a new master’s degree course which she has helped create at the National Film and Television School. She tells Nuala about this new course, and what the role of a costume designer involves.Rukky Brume grew up in Lagos, Nigeria. Her debut novel, It Comes in Waves, follows Onome, a law student in London whose father dies suddenly in Nigeria. Returning home for his funeral, she learns a secret that reveals there was far more to him than she knew. In 2021, her writing was longlisted for the Women's Prize Trust's Discoveries programme. She joins Nuala to discuss grief, loss and belonging and combining writing alongside a legal career.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. it is rather hot. Definitely a topic of conversation with everyone today. And maybe as a woman you've been feeling more frazzled by it than your male partner. Well, Dr. Amir Khan will tell us why that is in just a moment.

You are not imagining it. If you'd like to get in touch, maybe give a few tips on how you are staying cool. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0-3700-100-400-444. Also today, the majority of IVF add-on treatments assessed in a study out today

say they have no effect on fertility or remain unproven. We're going to hear from a doctor who authored the world's most comprehensive review into their effectiveness, and also with her will be Hannah Lewis Vaughn, who underwent IVF 15 times, including using various add-ons. so we're going to hear all about her experience.

It might be something you'd like to chime in on as well. 84844 is the way to text us. Also, Sandy Powell, the British costume designer, who has worked on more than 50 films winning Oscars and Baftas galore. Now Sandy is helping the next generation learn her craft. We're going to hear how. Also, London, Nigeria, love, loss, faith, family, grief, deception.

It is all in Rookie Bruma's beautiful new novel. It comes in waves. I'm looking forward to welcoming Rookie to the Woman's Hour studio today. And you might have been hearing in the news bulletin there about the largest maternity review into the history of the NHS. It is expected to detail widespread failings

that led to the deaths of babies and also unavoidable harm. That will be published later today. We are going to cover it on tomorrow's program. I do want to let you know that. just if you're following that news specifically this morning. But let me turn to the heat. It is hot out there.

This is only the second time a red warning has been issued since extreme heat warnings began. That was in 2021. Some schools you'll know are closing early. Transport is affected. And you're probably thinking right now about how to stay cool this week. But it could take a bit more effort for you to cool down

rather than the man that you're possibly living with. A little earlier, I spoke to Dr. Amir Khan. a GP, an author based in Bradford in West Yorkshire, and I asked him what this weather means for women. Women experience heat differently to men. Their biology is very different. So firstly, both women and men have the same number of sweat glands, but women actually sweat less than men,

so that reliance on evaporation of sweat to get rid of heat doesn't work as efficiently as it does in women. Hormones, as always plays a part in women. So for menstruating ladies, in the second half of their menstruating cycle, progesterone levels rise and progesterone can raise core body temperature in women by about half a degree, which is a lot when you're already hot. And of course, during the perimenopause and menopause, as estrogen levels fluctuate and fall, that affects the temperature regulation system in women's brains.

And so it can't regulate temperature as well. So you get the hot flushes, you get the sweats. and that just adds to the misery of being hot. And the makeup of women's bodies as well, women carry more fat, particularly around their hip area, which is important for fertility and periods. It's a healthy fat.

But that does create insulation and keeps heat in as well. One of the main mechanisms that women rely on to release heat is the cardiovascular system, so the heart beats faster, pumps blood up to the surface of the skin, where the blood vessels dilate and allow heat to evapest. operate out. However, women have smaller hearts than men. Their chambers are smaller. So the heart has to work doubly hard, which creates heat. And also the blood vessels aren't as wide as men's. And so the

evaporation process doesn't work so well. The other thing that I get told all the time by women is that they often, you know, with long hair, that hair at the back of the neck. The neck is one of the places where you want to lose heat from. Keeps heating. And bras are the other thing that women have to and get hot, I'm sweaty. I'm sorry, ladies. I'm sorry, I know. It's the first thing you do, isn't it? When you come home, take it off.

Take it off behind the sofa as it's thrown. Yeah, so I would say, you know, ladies, it is absolutely fair that you complain about the heat to us, men. We need to hear it because you are suffering more than us. Dr. Amir Khan, I'm glad that we're all on the same page about this. And, you know, you mentioned that heat. And, of course, one of the places, that it can be most uncomfortable

is when we're trying to sleep. I mean, women, as I know, as you'll know, often have more problems with sleep than men in general due to some of the issues that you've outlined their particularly hormones or perhaps have young children that come to them in the middle of the night. But particularly during the heat,

is there anything you can advise or at least help us understand what's going on? Yeah, a lot of it is perimenopold and menopause and hot flushes usually are worse for women during the night. One thing I would really recommend, if you wear pyjamas in bed, put them in a sealed plastic bag, put them in the freezer during the day so they don't get wet, and they're nice and cool when you put them on. You can either, if you don't wear pajamas, you can do that with your pillowcase.

Just make sure it's in a sealed plastic bag so it doesn't get wet in the freezer overnight. And it's the same with the hot water bottle. If you're very, very hot during the night, you know, as long as that very cold hot water bottle doesn't touch your skin directly, there's something in there. That is a really good tip to try and keep cool during the night. You've given me a really good idea.

I think overnight we should be putting our bras in a plastic bag. Yes. Popping them in the freezer for a nice cool bra first thing in the morning. Absolutely. I'm totally important. What about small children and older people when I have you here? What should we be thinking about? Because women often are in caring roles, as we know, as well. Yeah. These are the most vulnerable people when it comes to heat. Small children in particular,

because of the small surface area and the way that heat works. So making sure they're hydrated, making sure that they're not going out to play during the hottest part of the day. If they do go out, loose cotton clothing hats, sunscreen is so important. I always say this. I have darker skin and people from our communities often think they don't have to wear sunscreen. We do. We absolutely do have to wear factor 30 to 50, same as. everyone else our skin is vulnerable too. And then for older people, there are some medical conditions that can get worse in the heat as well if you suffer from heart problems or blood pressure.

Diabetes, hot weather affects your blood sugars as well. Migraines and headache can often get worse in the heat. So make sure you are hydrated, particularly if you suffer from migraines, because the combination of dehydration and hot weather can make migraines worse. And if you've got kidney disease, make sure you're hydrated as well because your kidneys are so sensitive. to dehydration. So if you know of any older people, anyone with health conditions, just check in on them and make sure they are doing okay in this hot weather. Really, really important. You've taken a few minutes out from a hot surgery in Bradford

to speak to us this morning. Thank you very much for doing that. Can you tell me what you're about to do and how the heat might affect your patient? Yeah, I mean, we don't have any air conditioning our surgery. I'm doing vasectomy this morning. And it's actually, actually the hot weather and the heat here is a bonus for me because it makes the skin of the scrotum sack a little bit more so I can get to those tubes much easier on these kind of saggy balls, let's say. So I'm happy with the heat today. And so, Will you're patient.

Thank you very much for speaking to us. As we go from how the heat affects men to how the heat affects women. Thanks so much, Dr. Amir. Thank you. That was Dr. Amir Khan. Thanks very much to him. Lots of you getting in touch. and Tumbridge Wells says my top tip is to carry a small plant sprits bottle filled with iced water,

cooling when sprayed on face, neck and hair. Another from Emily says, I'm sleeping with a frozen one-liter bottle of water wedged between my thighs. My husband made it for me with a little love heart attached. Well, let me bring in from Sydney, Alex Gorman, lifestyle editor of the garage in Australia. Good to have you with this, Alex. Hi, good to be here. Probably a cooler time in Australia at this time of year,

but you do have a lot of experience of extreme heat. How do Australians deal with heat that could at times be reaching 50 degrees? We're kind of in the high 30s in London, probably later today. Yeah, so when the heat gets so high that it's getting close to 50 degrees, that's kind of when it's a local emergency. And we have actually started having community resources, called heat shelters where they're typically local libraries or local Lido swimming pools or community centres or sometimes even shopping malls that will keep their doors open longer

and get people in so that they can be comfortable and in the air conditioning for as long as it takes before that nighttime cool begins to set in. So that's when the heat gets to dangerous levels. But this year alone we had, oh, well, well over 20 days in a row over 28 degrees, which is the Mets' highest limit for heat wave in the UK. And as an Australian, you've just learned to adapt your behaviour. So we don't even really break a sweat at that kind of temperature. But are you really limiting your behaviour?

Like I find odd days like this, particularly in non-air-conditioned spaces, you really have to slow down. And it can be hard to think, to concentrate, to work, definitely not work out. So I'm just wondering what the patterns are of behaviour for Australians during heat. So we wouldn't limit our behaviour, we'd modify it. So you're saying that it's really hard to work out in the heat of the day? It absolutely is. Australia is a nation of very, very early rises. If you are a jogger, then you get up at 5.30 or 6am and go for your run before it gets

hot if it's going to be a really hot day. Then we also modify our environment so we're not as uncomfortable in the heat. So that could be, as Dr. Amir said, evaporation is a really great way of cooling down. So putting on a wet t-shirt and then sitting in front of a fan is going to make you feel actually a lot more comfortable if your house is really warm. We change our houses to make sure that they don't suck in too much heat during the day. So Australians love blinds. I hear that this is less common in the United Kingdom, but we will close up our blinds, make sure that there's no sun coming into our houses, make sure that our house doesn't get hot during the day. And then as soon as the air starts to cool down, as soon as it's cooler outside than in, we open up all

of our windows and ideally create even a cross breeze so that we're dumping any heat out of our homes, which makes sleeping at night a little bit more comfortable. If you're lucky enough to have air on both sides, I mean, there was a report that they do expect in 10 years time that the UK will need to look at air conditioning and retrofitting as it becomes warmer. Here's Kate, who wrote in to say, I'm 52, I had terrible sleep last night, until I wet a pillowcase and put it around my neck and shoulders. I'm also ordering window film, but temporary solution foil on the outside of windows. I've ordered some super cooling towels and the house is dark with the windows closed. I'm following Mediterranean wisdom, or perhaps we could even call it Australian wisdom. I suppose

Kate's doing, she's living like an Australian, Alex. Yeah, she is living like an Australian. Kate's got it down. And I would say that having a cold shower just before bed and then getting into bed, maybe even a little bit damp. If your home is really hot overnight, that can be really helpful. The shower cools you down, your temperature is already lower. And then if you stay just a little bit damp, you get that wonderful evaporation as well that will keep you cool. I wouldn't do that under a polyester duvet though. No, this is what you need, Alex. This is Sue. I sleep in a silk sleeping bag lining on top of my bed. So, yeah, that would have been quite glamorous.

Mark, I put a half-filled hot water bottle in the freezer, cold water bottle. It stays cold for hours. It was a solution to extreme heat by the much missed Dr. Michael Mosley. So people are adapting. Some of the schools are closed, as we were mentioning as well. What happens in Australia? It really depends on the school. So if a school is in an area where people's homes don't necessarily have air conditioning, but the school has air conditioning, then that school is actually the best and safest place for students. So those schools would stay open. It's not great for the students, but they do have to then be kept indoors during lunchtime and during break because you can't have them running around in the heat of the day. So we used to think that schools would always close if it's over 40 degrees in Australia, but now it turns out.

that not only does school not close, you also don't get break or lunchtime outside. So it's really the worst of all worlds for them, but it does keep kids more safe. That's it. It'll be interesting to see figures working from home. Transport can be terrible in the heat, of course, but you might be have an air-conditioned office at the end of it

instead of a very hot and humid house. Alex Gorman, lifestyle editor for the Guardian, Australia. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Now, stay cool. I'll try. I am. I mean, you know, today we're in a very cool studio.

It's sometimes a little bit too cool for me today. It is bang on. And as we talk about our next issue, which is the question, how effective are IVF add-ons? These are extra optional, often expensive services that IVF clinics as well as forums, social forums and social media will at times recommend to improve chances of success in those undergoing. knowing IVF. There is, however, new research published today in the Lancet Journal of Obstetrics,

gynecology and Women's Health, and it is found that the majority of IVF add-ons assessed either showed no effect on fertility or remain inconclusive due to limited or low-quality data. So we have a number of guests to help us talk about this. Dr. Sarah Lenson is a senior research fellow at the Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Newborn Health. That's at the University of Melbourne. We're back in Australia. She's done. done a meta-analysis of studies available to work out which of these IVF extras we can actually trust. She joins me alongside broadcaster Hannah Vaughn Jones, who went through 15 rounds of IVF and is very familiar with all the various add-ons that exist. Hannah's with me in our very cool studio. Good to have you with us, Hannah.

Thank you very much. It's delightful in here. It's like, I know, it's like moving into a different world compared to the rest of London. Also, Professor Tim Child from the Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority, known as HFEA, which regulates IVF here in the UK and joins me down the line. I don't know how hot or cold it is where you are, Professor. 46 degrees. Oh, Lord. Well, thank you very much for taking the time.

Let me start with you, Sarah. Some people would be very familiar with IVF add-ons like Hannah is, others less so. Can you give us some examples? Sure. So IVF adons is really quite a broad umbrella term for anything, that is optional or not sort of necessary to the standard IVF protocols. So it can include extra medicines that the doctor might prescribe

or that patients might sort of seek out over the counter. It can include extra surgeries or procedures that clinician might perform, extra things that happen in the laboratory, the IVF lab, and even complementary and alternative therapies that patients might access out in the community. Could you give an example of one? one or two just to really get specific with people. Sure.

So some examples are introlipid infusion is an infusion into the vein of the woman's arm with this intralipid soy solution. And the theory there is that having that infusion might somehow modulate the woman's immune response and make her body sort of more receptive to receiving an embryo. That's one example. another one that we did study in our review is something called physiological ixi, which is a special technique that an embryologist might perform when they're selecting the sperm to inject into the egg as part of the fertilisation process.

They can add on this kind of extra way of trying to identify which sperm it is they should select based on whether it binds to a substance called hylera-on. So it's just another step in the process. Right. As we know with IVF, it can have low-arrow. I suppose all of these could potentially give people the idea that it might increase their odds. Tell us about your research. What did you find?

Yeah, so we already knew from our previous research and others that these IVF add-ons are widely available in Australia and also over in the UK. And also that they're quite widely used. So more than 70% of patients tell us they've used. one of more of these add-ons during their treatment. And so the aim of our review was sort of to ask the question, well, do they work? So we undertook a big systematic review and meta-analysis of 10 common IVF add-ons to try and understand which add-ons might offer some benefit and which might not. So useful, I'm sure, for people to get this information.

I mean, I said the overriding headline that I was seeing this morning. is that they showed money, showed no effect or limited effect in helping people. Was there any that you found that you're like, that's definitely worth considering? I probably wouldn't use that stronger language, but there's some add-ons that, you know, there's some possible benefit, as what we would say, based on the evidence. So there was three that kind of fell into that category. One was endometrial scratching, which is a, you know, somewhat painful, procedure as it kind of sounds like, which involves scratching that inside the uterus

with the hope that that might sort of make the uterus more receptive to receiving an embryo when it arrives. And so the evidence, there's been lots of studies conducted on endometrial scratching and some of them have quite conflicting results. But ultimately, when we do put them together statistically, it does seem like there is a possible benefit from embryo glue. Sorry, from endometrial scratching. The embryo glues are, another one where we did find possible benefit too. So this is a solution that the embryo can be dipped into just prior to the embryo transfer with sort of the aim of hoping it will help it to stick when it arrives inside the uterus. And for this one, it's a bit technical,

but depending on how we ran the statistical analysis, so there's sort of two broad approaches that you can use. Under one approach, it looked like there's benefit from embryo glue and under the other approach it didn't. So it leaves us a bit unsure. sure of the real effect there. I mean, it's sobering really, one of the headlines in the newspaper this morning. Most IVF add-on treatments have no effect on fertility or remain unproven.

So says the study. You'd agree with that characterization? Yeah, I would. Let me bring in Hannah here. So good to have you with us in the studio. I've read about your IVF journey a number of times over the years. It does have a happy ending.

It does. It's called sunny. He's called sunny. But you underwent 15 rounds? Yeah, 15 rounds of treatment overall. And that was a mixture of full fresh cycles. And then also I think it was 10 full egg collections. And then five frozen cycles as well.

You also had experience of add-ons. I'm so curious what you think when you're hearing these headlines this morning. It's kind of horrifying in a way. because of the 10 that Sarah was just mentioning there that was sort of assessed in this study, we tried seven. And with mixed results, I mean, every now and then I would get a positive pregnancy result and it would end in a chemical pregnancy or it would end in a miscarriage.

And then actually with Sunny, when he came along, one of the things that we had done, he was a frozen embryo. One of the things that we had done with him as an embryo was that we had had genetic screening, genetic testing done, which is one of the add-ons that's listed here. It's called PGT. PGT, yes. So, pre-genetic testing. Exactly. So you test the embryo to see how potentially viable it would be instead of being an unviable embryo that's been implanted.

Exactly so. And his test results came back inconclusive. So we'd spent the money on having the screening done. And then it didn't actually tell us anything. other than that, well, because he was a pretty ugly embryo as a cluster of cells, other than that it was very unlikely to work. He had been in the freezer, as it were, for sort of six months or something. But they would still implanted. That's interesting.

They would. However, when I think back now, I think if we'd had more embryos that all went underwent testing at the same time and some of them had been conclusive and that they'd returned a result, they probably would have been more likely to transfer that. So we may never have had Sunny in the end. I mean, he was the last of any embryo that we'd ever created. He was the last one. And so when we actually did go for a frozen transfer with him, it was kind of like it was very much last roll of the dice.

And we didn't have any of the extras. Lewis, my husband had very early on in the, well, not very early on, but sort of like maybe five rounds into treatment, had turned round to the doctors when you go in for that sort of initial consultation again and said, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear any of that, any add-ons, any extras, There's nothing at all.

We just want bog standard IVF or Ixie as it was in our case. And you mentioned Lewis, Louis von Jones, a colleague of ours here at the BBC. People will know them from the news channel as well, of course. But you did have, which does sound very painful, Hannah, endometrial scratching. Oh, it's just, I mean, for me, I have what's called a retroverted uterus, and I have a hidden cervix as well, which is, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, a bichorneut uterus, which is heart-shaped, which sounds a lot cuter than it really is. So any kind of speculum, any kind of a pap test, smear test, anything like that, is agonising for me.

And so the idea with the end of mutual scratch is essentially it should take 30 seconds, I think. And I think I had it maybe three times, all of which, you know, it costs at the time, it was sort of 200, 250, 300 pounds just to go through this procedure. I think I was told there was a 2% chance that they could make a difference in our full cycle of treatment. And it's just agonising. But for me, it was like having very, very strong menstrual cramps, the most intense that you can feel all in sort of 15 second period. But a 2% increase in the odds? Yeah. But you were prepared to do it?

Because you did it more than once, I think. You do everything and anything. You are desperate, desperate. And so if someone says to you, you, you were prepared. you, this might make a difference. Imagine if you didn't do it, then you would feel even more guilt than you already feel because you're dealing with a failed body,

failed womanhood, all of these feelings of failure. And then I remember a nurse at one point did turn around and she was very well-meaning, but she said, oh, but wouldn't you always regret it if you didn't try? And straight away, I was just sort of, I mean, I was angry. But I remember thinking, yeah, I mean, I, have to throw the kitchen sink at this, because if this round fails, it's on me. That's my fault then.

Because my understanding is that it is not offered on NHS. For example, this is a private clinics where it is generally offered. I mean, is there a way that you'd like to see that change? Yeah, for me, I was always really baffled about some of the add-ons that just seemed to be enhancing the medical science and enhancing the sort of the professional ability of an embryologist, for example, or something. So there was something called time-lapse imaging, which is essentially taking photographs of an embryo as it's in cell development. And I remember thinking, if you think this could help in terms of the selection of the right embryo, why wouldn't you just do it anyway? This is helping you do your job

better. So as a patient, you very much feel like, this isn't just my hopes and dreams. I assume you, as my doctor, my team, that you're on board as well. You really want this to work. And I just found it baffling that some of these add-ons weren't just automatically included in a cycle of treatment that's been prescribed by your clinician. Because they just think, yeah, this could give you the edge. We're not going to charge you for it, but we'll give you the edge. I think, did I read correctly, Hannah, it was about 80,000 that you spent Ewan Lewis on treatments, including add-ons, etc. Because these, even the add-ons are not cheap, It could be 500 here and 1,000 there and so it all adds up.

I do want to bring Tim in here. I'm curious what you make of this research and also Hannah's story that we're hearing. When Hannah's story, obviously sounds horrific, I was aware of Hannah's story beforehand and going through that many cycles and Hannah very clearly described the desperation side of things of paying a lot of money and going through painful procedures

for a 2%, which to many people doesn't sound like a lot. But if you're in that situation, It's more than not doing it potentially. Sarah's research, Sarah and Colley's research, is very interesting. It's very important research, and it really confirms what, from an HFEA perspective, we have also felt the majority of add-ons that are offered really are lacking the evidence behind to show any benefit. I thought it was really interesting on your website, Tim. You have a traffic light system or a rating, perhaps.

Do you want to describe it to our listeners? Yeah, it started about 10 years ago in research. response to increasing concerns over the lack of evidence of add-ons. And the HFBA were asked to come up with some sort of rating system for patients. So it's very much aimed at people going through fertility issues. It's been refined over the years and it's now a five point. So the words traffic light system don't really work now, but it's a five point system. We look at the evidence in a similar way to Sarah's group. But we also looked, if the things where there's little evidence, if we think perhaps it's very painful or dangerous, so we will actually say don't use it. So rather than just

saying there's no evidence, we might actually be more directive. And we group all the add-ons into five different. Is there evidence that doesn't work? Evidence it does work. Do we not know? Or have there just been no trials at all? Or is the evidence conflicting? So there's a few different ways of looking at it. Why is it allowed be offered if, in fact, there is no evidence to support its effectiveness? So it's frustrating that from an HFVA perspective, we don't have any rights to actually interfere with clinics offering add-ons at all is outside our regulatory remit. The Act of Parliament that put the HFEA into existence is from 1990, and we've asked for it to be updated, to have more of a role there. Clinics are expected, though, in the Code of Practice

that they all adhere to, to explain very clearly to patients what the pros and cons and what the evidence is for, or lack of evidence, for add-ons, and very importantly what the cost. are as well. So patients clinics are expected to signpost patients to the HFVA.gov.uk website where they can see the traffic light system. Hannah, would that have worked for you? The traffic light system did, it was in place when we were going through a lot of treatment. And I did rely on it. I did use it and look at it. I think the thing is that you're not an expert. And what you want is the experts to just tell you what to do. And what we always found was that because there was all of these new things emerging all the time.

And it will continue to be so. Which was, and you sort of, you're happy to sort of be a guinea pick, but it's just when you're, when you're having to pay for it as well, it's like a tax on hope or something like that. You're just sort of thinking, this is, I just don't know, I feel so vulnerable. And you're, it's an exploitative industry for the most vulnerable people. And I, I, at the time, the, the traffic light thing, it just wasn't clear enough because these things were emerging all the time.

And there's long-standing add-ons, things like acupuncture or something like that, which, you know, for me, that was probably the only one that I sort of stuck with. I didn't do it religiously, but I did do quite a lot of acupuncture. And it wasn't because I thought it was going to help me get pregnant. Honestly, it just helped me sleep. Yeah. It just helped me relax. So anything that you can do to give you some headspace. Let me turn back to you, Sarah.

I mean, have you had any response from clinics to your research? I know a lot of it has just been released today. I've had a few text messages from a few doctors that we work with. I think everyone's really on board with the message. And similar to the traffic light system that Professor Child mentioned, we've also developed a website at the University of Melbourne that sort of does a similar thing. So it breaks down the evidence for patients in terms of each of the different add-ons.

What does the evidence say? And what's this going to cost me? and what are the practical considerations? And we've been, I guess, you know, we're happy that the clinicians have really got behind us and they support it. And a lot of their websites link back to it. So I think the industry is behind it and it is a really kind of murky problem. And Hannah's story is, you know, it's an important story.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. But we also hear stories from patients, you know, I guess on the other hand, where they are, you know, they kind of tell the story that I understand there's no evidence for this. I understand it's completely experimental, but I think I should be allowed to use it and pay for it if I understand that that's the evidence base. So, you know, every patient has a different kind of experience with IVF. And so I guess our solution and the same with the HFBA is just to try and make sure that everyone has the facts.

And then they can kind of look on it where they... Hannah, I think you want to jump in. I'll give you the last word. Thank you. Just to say that, you know, some people, the people, for the people where it works, they will swear by whatever they tried. And I would not want to sort of deny them that at all. So I'm not saying that it's all nonsense or anything like that. I'm just saying that I just think it needs to be regulated a lot more.

I think the cost is extortionate for people who are already paying out a huge amount of money if they're having private treatment. And for us, our happy ending, which we're so lucky for, came about with absolutely nothing, no kind of. add-ons or anything after having tried most of it. Yeah, that after going through attacks on hope, I'll take that phrase away with me. Hannah Vaughn Jones, thank you so much for coming in. Also Professor Tim Child and Dr. Sarah Lenson. Really interesting.

That study out today. You'll find more about it just with a quick search on IVF add-ons. Thanks for your messages also coming in. Tips on how to stay cool. Soak a tea towel in cold water. Ring it out and lay it over your pillow. cool head helps me sleep. Jackie says, do not sleep with a man or a dog or anyone else. She says, last night I slept on a single mattress on the floor in my dining room with the window open on my own.

I had the best night's sleep despite the heat. Another, Margaret, a physicist. If you have any reusable ice packs that you get with food deliveries, keep them in the freezer and when you go to bed, take them with you and put them on the bed and on the pillow and on yourself if you have protective pajamas or night dresses. I slept all last night with the help of these. You see, the community coming together, helping us all get a good night's sleep. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide by entering your work.

is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. There is a thread that unites the following films. Shakespeare in love. New York. Mary Poppins returns, the favourite, Carol, the Irishman, Cinderella. And that thread is the great British costume designer, Sandy Powell. She's won three Oscars and is the most Bafton nominated costume designer of all time for her work. And now Sandy is turning her attention

to those who will come after her with a new master's degree course at the National Film and Television School, which she has helped to create. And I'm delighted to say she joins me in the Women's Hour Studio this morning. Good to have you back with us. Hi, nice to be here. So tell me about this master's degree, going to take first students next year. How did you become involved? Well, it was three years ago in 2023. I was doing, I think I did a master class or a talk at the NFTS with John Wardle.

And during that time, or maybe after we'd done the talk, I was discussing, you know, we were just chatting about the school and how it's run and all the rest of it. And it struck me that it covers every discipline in film apart from costume design back then. They didn't have a costume design course. And I sort of expressed my concern and shock at that and said, well, that's why. And actually, it's a practical thing. They didn't have the space or the resources for that. And it was left at that.

And then a year ago, John got in touch with me to say, hey, guess what? We've raised funds. We've got money. We've got a new building. and we've got plans to start a new course. And then asked if I would be involved in just on a sort of consultancy basis on advice on what would be the best course to take. Yeah, how to teach costume design. How do you teach it?

I don't know. Do you know what? I actually think the best way to learn is practical experience, which is why, in my opinion, this course would be really beneficial. I mean, a lot more in a sense than the course I took personally was a theatre design course in an art school. Now that was many years ago. It was in the early 80s and courses have changed since then.

But all the courses open to students in art school scenarios are a lot more theoretical. They have less opportunity to work actually in the environment that you're learning how to work in. Whereas in this particular case, the costume designers will be coming into a building that is already occupied by production designers, editors, directors, producers, assistant directors. So you're already walking into the work environment at the very beginning. What does a costume designer do? Big question.

A costume designer, well, a costume designer is responsible for every item of clothing that you see on every single person in any person. in any film. Okay, that's going to blow our minds for a bit. Every item of clothing, I'm thinking of somebody's glove, I'm thinking of somebody's fan. If it's a period drama, I'm thinking of a hat.

It's not all big dresses. No, it's not. I mean, it doesn't have to be a big period drama. It could be on TV. It could be a contemporary cop show. But somebody has chosen and made a decision about every single item of clothing that every single person's wearing.

and that's not just the actors, that's not just the well-known names that you're seeing right in front of the camera. It's every person in the background as well, it's every extra. It's basically you're creating, your help, you're sort of creating a world. Yes, such a good way of putting it. And tell me a little bit about the schedule off a costume designer. I think whoever does take on or wants to join this Masters, for example, they need to be, have a bit of stamina. Oh, gosh, yes. I mean, yeah, you have to be prepared to work incredibly hard.

It's a very sort of intense period of time when you're working on a film. I mean, my experience is film. I haven't actually done TV. I know it's a very similar, if not harder, because you have less time and you work at a faster pace in TV. But you've got to be prepared to put the hours in. And the hours are long and arduous. And not only that,

kind of have to give up the rest of your life for that duration, that time, because it's all-encompassing. This is Women's Ares. I'm very curious. It has been female-dominated, would that be fair to say? It has. And really, the last counts were, according to, I think it's one of the guilds in the US, it's 87% female.

Still. Interesting, right? Because you just talked about the workload. It doesn't have, perhaps, at times, the flexibility which women, I hear, often crave. to have other parts of their life that they're able to manage as well. It's true. I mean, you really do have to give up the rest of your life. It's very difficult.

I actually am in awe, an admiration of women who are mothers who actually manage to do the job and still, you know, maintain a home life. I think it's very, very challenging. Do you see that changing at all? I don't know. I don't know how that can. It is, I mean, apart from job sharing,

I mean, I don't know how it could actually work because the film industry aren't going to change the working out. So it's always a very short period of time that everything has to get done. And is that all money-based? Yes, it's all about money. Time is money. And so anyone who's within those roles, it has to fit into that path the way it is at the moment.

It does. I mean, the benefits are, obviously when you're working, it's a fantastic experience and you develop a whole new family. for that period of time. But then if I'm in the middle of something and despairing, thinking, oh my God, I just wish I could have a day off or some time at home.

I kind of know that at the end of it, I will have a chunk of time off. Now, that doesn't suit all people. I mean, not knowing when the next job is, but I actually know that I can have like a hell of a lot of time off after I've done an intensive piece of work. Which might be now, because you've just wrapped up, I understand, the Martin Scorsese film.

Can you tell us anything about that or indeed the costume? Yeah, the film is called, well, at the moment it's called what happens at night based on a book of the same name, a novel by somebody called Peter Cameron. And we shot in Prague and in New York and it's set in a fictional country in Eastern Europe. That's all I can say really, in a non-specific time period, which makes it interesting. Okay, we're going to be watching. Just think every single person that you see. Andie has had one finger in it. Let's talk about the scholarship, though, because it's going to be one in your name.

Apparently so, yes. How wonderful is that? I know. It's exciting. I'm honoured. Yeah, and that will start from next year. I mean, this year, actually, the first term. And that is quite the legacy, though.

Yeah. I guess it is, yeah. I didn't really thought about it. No? I know. It makes me feel. Makes me feel, I don't know what it makes me feel. Old and established, I suppose.

No, you need to think legendary and veteran. No answer to that. I think it's going to, we're going to look at clothes, I feel, in a totally different way. Really interesting, however, to hear about the scholarship and also the new degree course taking place. I have been talking about the weather this morning, the heat wave. Any particular fabrics or styles you recommend when it's hot like this? I mean, natural fibres always. I mean, cotton.

I actually, I think cotton is the only thing to wear. Cotton and linen. I mean, even silk doesn't really work. Even silk is hot and sticky. You hired it here from Sandy Powell. Thank you very much for coming in, one of the great British costume designer, Sandy Powell, will now have a scholarship in her name

and a new master's degree taking place of the National Film and Television School. Thanks so much. Thank you. 8444 if you would like to get in touch I want to turn to my next guest who has written about the messiness of being human they're her words

Rookie Brumet grew up in Lagos in Nigeria she's the author of a new book called It Comes in Waves An early draft was long listed for the Women's Prize Discovery's Program in 2021 and her debut novel is an exploration of grief It's set between London and also Lagos, Nigeria, following Onome, a Nigerian law student whose father dies suddenly back in Nigeria.

When she returns for a funeral, she discovers a secret that reveals there was far more to him than she ever knew previously. Rookie, you're very welcome. Thank you, Nula. I loved your book. I'm so pleased. Yeah, beautiful. All about grief, loss, faith, belonging.

I just kept wondering how much. much of it is you in the book? I think everyone keeps wondering. But what I did was I focused on the emotions. I wanted to portray what it felt like to lose a parent prematurely. And a lot of the decisions that I made with that character. So I gave her my university, but that was out of laziness because I didn't want to research, research what it was like to go to another university, things like that. But I did that so I could focus on creating her to be an authentic person and her family as well. So Onome, this central character that I've come to know very well, she's in law school in London. And so that's what you did? That's what I did. But your father died when you were young? He did. He died just after my graduation in 2011 to a little later than Onomé's father dies while she's in uni.

But young, you know, the 20s, him in his 60s, possibly. And it is such a beautiful description of grief, really. Your character comes home to her father's funeral. Her father is not there at the airport. I found that so poignant. It reminded me my father used to always come and collect me when I'd come back to Ireland, coming back from America. And I have this theory that I believe anyone who picks you

up from the airport that you aren't paying to do so. It's an act of love. But I was thinking you probably went through that too. Exactly. So both my parents, either of my parents would pick me up from the airports. And so going to the airports and having no parent there, I definitely went through that. And so, yes, they're little bits here and there of me and my emotions in it. It's so keenly observed, though, I think.

also another aspect in your book that that struck me is when we learn after an event that somebody has died, for example, that you question, how come I didn't know when that happened? I don't know, like at 6 o'clock in the evening, you're watching some TV show, and if your father dies at that time

and you have no knowledge of it, it's very disorientating. Yeah. That was, again, something that I always personally thought would happen in a romantic way that at, you know, 302, you felt it shiver and the person that you loved had died at 302. But that didn't happen. I was going about my day. It was my first day at law school. He'd called earlier to wish me luck. And so I think I wanted to convey that in Onome's own experience, where she's just having a normal day and then her world is thrown into a. disarray. Yes, indeed. And you talk about there's a line in your book, death is insatiable, that it can permeate so many areas, but that others aren't aware as you go through this path of grief. Yes. Yeah. I was trying to describe it because it's something that sucks the whole life out of those who remain as well for a time period at least. It took me years to become normal. You know, you had a line that you were envious of your former innocent self.

And I think people who have lost someone will totally understand that. You also contrast, because we see this contrast between London and Lagos, and of course a path very well travelled by Lagosians here in London. But you contrast the funerals in the UK with those that are Nigerian, which can be very different. Yes, yes. Let's talk about grief mongers. So that was a term that I used to describe the kind of hangars on that appear,

the mourners and people that just appear in your house in Nigerian culture if someone dies. And they're there for ages, like from when the death happens till the funeral. It can provide comfort, but you also have to feed them and all of that. So I think whereas maybe there are other examples of people, you know, sitting shiva, but in say culture, in London culture, in English culture, you don't really see that intrusion. You see it in Ireland. I think with one funeral that we had in a house,

I think the last person left at 3 a.m. And then I opened the door for the next person at 7 a.m. Oh, my goodness. So I totally understood and identified with what you were talking about there, because there can be great comfort in these rituals. But of course, there's a lot of faith or religion around them as well, particularly in Ireland and also in Nigeria. And Onome goes through a crisis of faith that we see during this time.

Why was that important to explore? I think it was important because in lots of the things that I read, you're dealing with people who aren't people of faith, but I come from a background where it's abnormal to not be a person of faith in my in in in in Nigeria so I wanted to explore what it's like to come from the comfort and reliability of thinking that the world is a certain way and have that tested by something you know by death happening to someone close to you I think that it's it's something I haven't seen explored and I wanted to explore it with on a me is it something that you experienced I did

experienced that, but I've experienced it in various areas of my life as well. Onomé had an innocent experience where that was her first experience of loss, but sadly I had previous experiences of loss. So each time I think has chipped away a little bit at something. Yeah. Yeah. And the questioning, the pastor, Pastor God's power is also a very, what would I say, well-rounded character

that I felt like I knew after reading the book as well. But there is another part of this book when Onome returns home that she discovers a hidden part of her father's life. That he had another family. That is not based on your own experience. But I'm curious about

that whole role of deception and double lives and not really knowing our parents, perhaps. That was something I wanted to experience. floor as well because I think when even at that age in my early 20s my parents were just you know you've brought me to this world you're here to look up to me essentially and I remember picking up the phone to them at that stage in life and calling if I had a toothache. Oh really? Little things like

I'm awake at night so you two who brought me here have to be but but I think when my father died I did start to see, wow, this is, you know, my mother is a woman who, you know, she's lost the love of her life. And I started to see her more as a person as opposed to my mother. And so I wanted to, and also seeing my father being described by people who knew him. So I thought when I'm exploring grief on this story, it would be important to explore finding or getting to know your parents as people. But then there is always, I think, which comes across in your book, the questions that you have for the parent who died. Yes.

That cannot be answered. That can't be answered, exactly. Let's talk about another character. Okay. Ant iguono. Egwana, yes, yes. Now, she's an older lady, I think, but she's definitely not an invisible older woman.

You know, sometimes older women talk about being invisible. This woman is in technicolor. Yes. She was my favourite to write. She just brought... We have to describe her a little bit. How would you describe a rookie? I would describe her as a cantankerous presence.

She had a lot of presents. And she's on a miss aunt. So she's a bit troublesome. Yeah, but not afraid to speak her mind. Not afraid to speak her mind. Or have her way. Yes. Is she based on women you know?

No. So I think the only thing I would have taken is my beloved grandmother, who passed away earlier this year, loved morning devotions. So that I took and gave to Auntie Egonaut. But Auntie Egonaut is, you know, a character of her own. Yes. Fresh from the imagination. Fresh from Rookie's imagination. But what did you?

Because you have this sprawling family, really, and some of the grief moms. and various people of society, all that have opinions that can be kind of heightened around the time of loss and a funeral. What did you want to illustrate about Nigerian families and society? Because I think it was quite interesting the way the role of women, for example, of different generations, you know, within that structure. That's a great question. I think I wanted to show without a capital T theme or anything, just this is how things are. this is how women are, this is how women experience the country and the society in different generations. This is how it would have been for someone like Antigono in her time when

education wasn't, say, prioritized for the woman. This is how, you know, things would have been for Onome's mother even, you know, in her time. So I really wanted to explore just how that goes on. And And also in some ways, things are normal in Nigerian society like polygamy. I wanted to explore that a little bit. And they're not normal universally, but they are, they're not unusual. Because there was like a patriarchal structure that you illustrated as well, particularly coming from perhaps certain sectors of society, looking at a young woman who was outspoken or studying law.

But Oname's father, when Aname would come home, he would say, here comes the next president of Nigeria, for example, and just wonderful praise. And I wonder, was your dad somebody who praised you a lot? He did. Yes, but my dad praised me a lot. But he praised all his children because he thought that they were great because they were his kids. But yes, it's, it's, I did notice that I came out with a more robust sense of self. than you would in a patriarchal society

because of the type of father that I had. Your father was a feminist, whether he would have called himself that or not. He would absolutely not have called himself that, but he was. Yes, yeah, really interesting, isn't it? It's such a beautiful read. You were a lawyer, as you mentioned, or studying, working as a financial lawyer

and then wrote this book. I mentioned you were long listed for the Women's Prize Discoveries program and before you even finished the novel. How does it feel right now to have it out there? It's a dream come true. And I have to thank everyone who believed in me and helped me along the way

because it took so many years and I wrote it alongside working. And so it's been since 2018. So it feels phenomenal. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. This book.

It comes in Waves is out tomorrow, the 25th of June. June. Quick reminder about listener week. Perhaps you've an unusual or interesting job that you think our listeners should hear about. You might be part of an all-female team. Perhaps you're the only woman in your field. Well, if you'd like to feature on the program and contact us, just all the usual ways, maybe it will happen. Text us 84844 on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Tomorrow we will hear from two mothers whose babies died at Nottingham hospitals. They will tell Anita what the Occam did review, which is due to

report in the next hour means to them. Also, Sarah Vine's memoir, how not to be a political wife will also be discussed on the programme. A little top tip from a hot Marie Helen in Somerset. I froze cold water in a hot water bottle, rested my feet on it all night,

still frozen, have it resting on my feet or under my armpit and keep the curtains shut. Thanks for all the tips. I'll see you soon. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. So, Alice Lockstone, I'm here for the history. Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality. And that's perfect because we have a lot of history to share.

Why did tea become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do women's clothes still not have pockets? Well, in our new podcast, here for the history, we're investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today. Basically, the things we've all noticed but never stopped to question. Listen on BBC Sounds or watch on YouTube. Just search for Here for the History.

The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June.

Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration.