Woman's Hour - Women and heat, Surrey Police on catcalling stunt, Pregnancy sickness

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

As a heatwave grips the UK, we ask whether soaring temperatures impact women differently to men and what should be done about it. Professor Mike Tipton, Professor of Human and Applied Physiology at the University of Portsmouth, joins Nuala McGovern to explain. The author Paula Sutton has written her second novel, The Body in the Kitchen Garden. The interiors stylist and TV and social media personality talks to Nuala about creating plots to challenge her fictional detective Daphne Brewster, and her real-life passion for cottagecore and swapping city living for a cosy rural lifestyle. Several newspapers this morning are talking about the decision by Surrey Police to send undercover female officers out jogging to catch catcallers. They went running during rush hour to expose the frequency that women are harassed while exercising in public. A 2021 survey by Runner's World revealed that 84% of women had been harassed while jogging. Inspector Jon Vale, Borough Commander of Reigate and Banstead and Surrey's violence against women and girls safer spaces lead, joins Nuala. A woman in Wales who felt forced to terminate her pregnancy after being unable to access the anti-sickness medication she needed is calling for the drug to be made more widely available. Sarah Spooner was suffering from hyperemesis gravidarum which left her vomiting more than 20 times per day and unable to eat or drink. But she found it virtually impossible to access Xonvea, a medication which is recommended as a first-line treatment in England but not in Wales. Nuala hears Sarah's story, and speaks to Dr Caitlin Dean from Pregnancy Sickness Support about why there is a postcode lottery across the UK for women needing Xonvea. Sydnie Christmas captivated television audiences when she won Britain's Got Talent in 2024, becoming the first female singer to win the contest. With a background in musical theatre, the singer and actress impressed the judges with her powerhouse vocals. Since her win, she has released a debut album, topping the iTunes charts in the UK and US, and now she's starring as villain, Cruella De Vil in 101 Dalmatians, the musical at Eventim Apollo, London. Presenter: Nuala Mcgovern Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to the programme. Well, how did you sleep last night? Some of us were in very hot parts of the country. Temperatures off 33 degrees in some places in the UK, as England endures its fourth heat wave off the summer. We're going to discuss why women are more affected by extreme heat.

And it's not just for those who are pregnant, menopausal or elderly will find out why. And I also want to know your tips to stay cool. I brought a cold water bottle to bed with me last night. Did work a treat if you're wondering. What's yours? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0-3-700-100-444. Plus, Sydney Christmas. Well, Sydney is with us. She's going to be telling us about playing Cruella DeVille in a new stage production off the Disney classic 101 Dalmatians. You might have read this morning

about undercover female officers dressed in sportswear posing as joggers to catch those that harass women exercising in public. Now, some applaud and others criticise this initiative. We're going to speak to Surrey Police

who are the force who launched it. And also on the programme today, We're going to hear from one woman whose severe pregnancy sickness was so bad, she says she had to have a termination. She's calling for better care for women who suffer like she did. But let me begin with the heat. The UK, as you'll know, is in the grip of another heat wave. Temperatures were yesterday 33 degrees in England and Wales, around 29 in Scotland and 28 in Northern Ireland. And it is set for that heat to continue over the coming days.

It's also set to be a thing for the summers to come. There's climate projections from the MET office indicating that hot spells will become more frequent. So does the heat impact women differently to men and why? Let me bring in Professor Mike Tipton, Professor of Human and Applied Physiology at the University of Portsmouth. Good to have you with us, Mike. So tell us what are the difference.

Do women feel it more keenly? Yes, good morning. Yes, there are differences between men and women. women and there are actually differences between women within the menstrual cycle. But the essential differences are that females are smaller than men on average, and that means that they have a higher surface area and a smaller mass. And that's perfectly designed for heating up more quickly. So if you put somebody into a hot environment that's smaller than somebody else, the smaller

the person will heat up more quickly. Females also have a difference in the way they thermoregulate, so the way they control their body temperature. They tend to use more circulation and less sweating. Mouth sweat more and females use more peripheral blood flow to release heat to the environment. The problem with that is once the air temperature gets close to skin temperature, so in the 30 where we are now, then the only route really to lose heat is by the evaporation. of sweat. So that puts females at a disadvantage. So interesting. I mean, I think a lot of women

listening, they just have to think about when they have their period and just feeling hot before they even get started doing anything. Women that are going through the menopause, for example, some women will experience hot flushes. What about those hormonal changes that women have happening within them as well? Yeah, so women do worse in the heat in the luteal compared to the follicular phase of the menstrual cycle, primarily because of an increase in progesterone. So their thermoregulatory responses, their skin temperature, core temperature, heart rate, sweat rate are all set to a higher threshold in the luteal phase. Which is the second half of the menstrual cycle.

Correct. And we know that if females do light exercise, they do worse in the first part of the menstrual cycle, the follicular phase than they do in the luteal phase. It's so interesting, isn't it? And I'm wondering for women that have hot flushes in weather like this, it must be really tricky for them. Yes. I mean, we know that there are, you know,

there's in terms of the number of people who have problems in heatways, women have a higher percentage. We know that that higher percentage is in part caused by the fact that older people get affected by heatways. and there are more older women than there are older men. However, even if you allow for age, women do worse. And there's lots of different physiological reasons, some of which we've discussed,

but there's also social reasons. When you exercise, about 80% of the energy you consume is released as heat. And that means that people who do more exercise are going to be more susceptible in the heat. They've not only got heat coming from the environment, they've got it coming from within them as well. and females tend to do more work around the home.

They tend to have been lower paid jobs and those lower paid jobs are often in places with less controlled environments that are hotter. And as I say, women live longer. So we know that age is a big factor in susceptibility to heat waves and particularly women who are living alone with underlying health conditions tend to be particularly at risk.

It's interesting, isn't it? because I'm just thinking as you're speaking, Mike, countries that traditionally were hot but did not have air cooling systems, for example, air conditioning, etc. They would usually just stop business in the middle of the day and that hottest part of the day. Other places continued like the United States, but they would be fully air conditioned, for example. How do you see this adapting in the UK if indeed we have as many hot days in the summer as we're looking at this year? well we do have the ability to adapt to heat physiologically but it's limited i mean what we end up doing is expanding our blood volumes and we've got more coolant the blood is a coolant that circulates around the

body and we sweat sooner and we sweat more but actually that's a pretty limited um you know response in terms of the ability to cope with a heat wave by far the most powerful response will be behavioral so we will change we will change the way we'll be behave. We will have to start doing things like, you know, doing things that require exercise and metabolic heat production in the cooler parts of the day. We may well have to hide from the heat in the middle of the day. We'll have to change the way we design houses. Our urban environment will have to change. So there'll be significant changes which will be attempts to adapt to the increasing heat and the increasing number of heat waves. But by far the most

important thing to do is to mitigate, is to stop releasing the gases that are increasing our temperatures. You're talking about climate change. I did notice yesterday, for example, like working in parts of London, that there was not a whit of shade. No trees whatsoever on many

of the streets. Yeah, that's right. And that's, I mean, I think, you know, there's already lots of thought going into how you design housing and the urban environment for the future in order to provide, not just the shade that in a trees provide, but also the cooling that they provide and how we can try and adapt to that stress. But as I say, I mean, by far the most important thing to do because of the

wide range of impacts which climate change will have is to mitigate, i.e. stop the increase in temperature rather than try and deal with it. But certainly in the short term, we'll have to adapt in order to allow those mitigations to take place. And sorry, continue, Mark. I would say, and for individuals, it's going to mean, you know, as I say, more rest, more avoidance of the hotter parts of the day, moving to the kind of cultural response which you see in Mediterranean countries. Interesting. One listener got in touch. I was just saying what are some of their tips, quirky or established, that they wanted to share. Hi, it's a cold flannel on the head, arms or across your face. It's a continual joke with my now adult children. whenever the weather got or gets hot, I just shout out wet flannel.

But do you have any ideas on how people should cope, particularly let's say somebody's pregnant or breastfeeding or menopausal or elderly, which would be some of the groups that are particularly susceptible? Yes, I mean, the first thing to mention is the cold flannel thing is you have to make a distinction between things that make you feel cooler and things that make you cooler. So putting a cold flannel on the face or fanning the face is a reasonably good way of making you feel a bit cooler, but it doesn't actually take very much heat from the body. It's just cooling.

Our temperature sensation is very driven by our skin temperature, and particularly the face, because there's lots of receptors on there that tell you about temperature. However, if you put a fan on the face or a cold fan on the face, it'll make you feel cooler, but it's not removing heat from the body. whole body fanning or misting with a spray and then fanning is a much more effective way. Or putting your hands into cold water, a much more effective way of losing body temperature rather than making you just feel cooler. Tepid showers rather than cold showers will do the trick as well. So, yeah, there are lots of things you can do. Here's a couple.

Open water swimming has become a popular woman's sport. Our response to higher temperatures perhaps explains this. I love my new sport. around. Most people there are women like me. This woman says she's 74 and a certain shape. Here's another one. My wife and I have been naturess for years. It's much easier to cool down by dissipation through the skin when we're naked. We love the sun and never burn. When it's too hot, we have a siesta in the shade and plenty of fluids. That one coming in from Ian. And I do have one more for you as well. Forgive me just as I scroll up. The messages are coming in quite

fast. To manage the night heat, I do two things. Dampen your hair. That'll cool your head and your brain. You'll feel a lot cooler. Sleep on a modern water bed. In the winter, dial up the temperature so it's lovely and cozy. In the summer, reduce the temperature off it so it cools you down. What's you reckon, Mike? Well, all of them are partly right.

But we'd need another couple of hours to go through one for each other in turn. But certainly, anything that can increase the evaporation of water from the surface of the body will help with cooling. But the one thing we haven't mentioned that's really important, and particularly if you've got elderly relatives, is staying hydrated because although, you know, you can do things to directly impact on cooling the body, a really powerful way of doing it is allowing the physiology of the body to work, i.e. having enough blood to circulate around the body,

to deliver heat to the surface of the skin, to it to support sweating. And one of the problems we have with the heat is when it's compounded by people becoming dehydrated. So it's really important, number one, to rest in the heat, particularly, as you say, if you're pregnant, when you've got a higher metabolic rate, a higher level of natural heat production, to rest and remain hydrated, because it's that hydration that will enable you keep supporting your circulation and your thermoregulation. Professor Mike Tipton, Professor of Human and Applied Physiology at the University of Portsmouth, thanks so much. And you can also, like our listeners, get naked and jump.

in some open water, if you so fancy. Now, I want to move on to a little bit of cosy crime. If you're a Miss Marple fan, but have exhausted the catalogue of Agatha Christie's, maybe our next guest has a book for your summer reading list. Paula Sutton brings us the body in the kitchen garden, and Paula's vintage-loving detective, Daphne Brewster, solves crimes in the delicious-sounding pudding corner. Now, if you're into tiny flower prints,

and a bit of chintz maybe, and some treasure hunt, and Cottage Corps, and yes, we'll explain what that is. You may already know Paula from her work as an interior stylist, her Instagram account, beautiful, Hill House Vintage, or perhaps as a presenter on Channel 4's Millionaire Horders. Paula, you're very welcome to Women's Hour. Oh, thank you so much for having me. You have the moment you walk into the studio,

a great dress on, bright red lipstick. I've heard that you garden in red lipstick. Is that true? Oh, I do. I believe in living life as joyfully as possible. And if that means putting on the red lipstick, regardless of whether it gets smeared while the heats out, and even if you have to get naked in the sun in the heat. Keep the lipstick on.

Keep the lipstick on. Keep something on to make you feel glamorous and happy. I love that. We're starting a whole new trend here. Now, this is your second novel, and I loved it. I just kind of jumped in and off I went to live in Pudding Corner for a little while while reading. Tell me a little bit more about Daphne Brewster, your protagonist. My protectness. So Daphne Booster is a braver and younger version of me when I moved to Norfolk 15 years ago. So I've been... From London, I should say. From the big smoke. Absolutely. I'm a born and bred South Londoner who moved to Norfolk 15 years ago.

And Daphne Booster is very similar character. You know, I don't solve murders. Daphne does. But she came along and she's found a new life and she's made new friends and a few sort of tricky circumstances. circumstances happen along the way. She has to defend a few people that she loves, a few new friends that she loves. It's all about sort of exploring yourself and finding out that some people aren't the people you perhaps want to spend time with and other people might be. So it's all about getting into village life, which I had to do myself. Village life, that is a great, what we say, talking about pools, a pool of characters to dive into. Shall we hear a little bit of a reading?

Absolutely. Okay. Let's go to Pudding Corner. Welcome to Pudding Corner. Is there anything more heartwarming than being received into the welcome and open arms of the venerable English village? Are the bosom of country life, that perfect entryway into the vestibule of traditional Englishness, that conduit of all things green and pleasant, that gateway into a satched roof and picket-fenced-filled Narnia, where the quintessential patch of hailed grass makes up the village green and rains superiors.

cream, and every stranger is a friend waiting to share a pot of tea. Welcome strangers one and all, for who can resist the allure of some harmlessly enthusiastic village community spirit, the helpful neighbours watching so kindly to ensure we never put a foot wrong, straining their necks across the maze of narrow lanes to pleasantly observe that rules are followed, proffering the friendliest tips on what traditions must be upheld and at what cost. So what was it? that attracted you to a life that perhaps you're putting in caricature somewhat there, but could be beautiful or could be suffocating? It's really interesting. I needed to escape.

I had three children under three at one point. And I worked in the fashion industry. And I loved my job. I loved being a mother. I loved my life. But I felt that I wasn't being good at any particular one thing. I was juggling a lot. And it just sort of got quite overwhelming.

I'm sure a lot of women would handle it beautifully. But I got to a stage where I thought something has to give. And I'm very much an out of sight, out of mind person. So to stay in London and watch other people succeed or I felt I was failing wasn't the right route for me. So together with my husband, we decided let's leave London. Let's do something that we felt was brave. But I always say it's not that brave moving up from London to Norfolk. My parents moved across continents, you know, to come to a brand new place.

So I always think, well, if they could come from Grenada in the late 1950s, then I can go up the, you know, 100 miles up the road to Norfolk. So we did our brave, our version of our brave move. And I just wanted to get something perfectly right, in my view. And that something was going to be having the children grow up and have a country life so that I could be present. I was going to make cakes. I was going to become that sort of fairy tale mother that you read about in books. And of course, life isn't perfect. Life is never like that.

And it always raises its own challenges, even when you get something right. But I felt it was the right route for me. And it's turned out brilliantly, not with, not with its, without its hiccups. You know, there were moments when I thought, who am I? What am I doing? You know, why have I given up my old life? You know, what do I become now? Which I should also say to people about your old life.

You were head of press for elite modelling agency. And during the time, like Naomi Campbell, all the supermodels and Evangelista, Christy Turnington. And then you are in... At Elle magazine, so that I was at Elle magazine. Booking's editor, well, yeah. So it was a very glamorous and wonderful life, which was brilliant and very conducive to sort of having a fantastic lifestyle.

But then with children, when you're flying around the world and sort of looking for models to be on the, you know, cover of a magazine, it's not so child-friendly. So it was definitely a considered choice to slow down. But, you know, my life hasn't actually slowed down. Not at all. I mean, if we just even take a look at your Instagram, you're so many followers. And you create, I think for anybody who hasn't seen it, let's talk about Cottage Corps.

How would you describe it? So Cottage Corps is sort of harking back to the past. It's a very bucolic image of working with the hands. hands, working with the land and creating beauty and being sustainable. It's a very sort of steeped in tradition, steeped in beauty and tradition in the best possible way. But it is quite an idyllic way of looking at the past. You know, of course, there's a lot of toil and trouble in terms of growing your own

food and being a farmer. So cottage core is just looking at it through rose-tinted glasses, I would say. And when we look at these pictures, just to give people an idea, just think of the most beautiful country kitchen, maybe with a three-layered sponge, Victoria's sponge. Because I know you're a cake woman most definitely. But as I was looking at it, I was like, how long does it really take to stage one of your beautiful photos? And what are we not seeing in that image? Well, you're not seeing a lot of rubbish in the background. But at the same time, you know, I did set out to be as real as possible. So those cakes are eaten. I often get asked

this, you know, when I do the table scapes in the garden, when there's the abundance of flowers and the abundance of food or whether it's a, you know, a multi-layered sponge cake, is this real? What happens afterwards? And I always plan them when family and friends are around. So it always becomes a feast. It's always real. It always becomes true to what it's supposed to be because it's never meant to be fake. It was never meant to be this whole, my whole presence on social media came from something that was very real.

I wanted to find joy in a place where I had been freed. a little bit down, you know, down and sort of not knowing who I was. I had a little bit of an identity crisis. So it all came from a place of wanting to find the joy in life. So those cakes are real. Those tablescapes are for people. And you do introduce this to your family as well. You are quite open in your Instagram posts as well.

We get to know you, I feel, through that. And I want to go back to Daphne, the younger you, as you say, the braver you. The brave of me. That is within your book. She's a vintage hunter. like yourself. She's also a black woman like yourself. And there has been a lack of visibility of black women in some settings, both that you live in perhaps and also that you describe in your books. How has it been to try and turn some preconceptions on their head? Well, what's really interesting is that

sometimes I've had people say, well, is this a realistic depiction of, you know, what could happen? You know, why would there be a black woman in the middle of a village? And I always say, no, this is my life. This is my experience. And it is true. Things have changed over the last 15 years. But when I first moved to my area, it was very white. I, you know, I didn't see people who looked like me around. And I was okay with that. I was worried for my children who are mixed race. I, you know, was very concerned that they wouldn't feel othered. But they didn't. It was absolutely, it was a wonderful experience. I think there's something about a small village community where people are, once they know that you're staying and that you're in,

investing your time and efforts into the community. They love you for it. You know, they want people to come and join. But, you know, you have to want to be part of that and contribute to that, which is what we did. So it was a beautiful experience. Also thought interesting with Daphne as a black woman. She comes across old objects as she's into her vintage,

which would now be viewed as bowing to racial stereotypes, for example. Absolutely. And I thought that was really interesting to put it in the book as well. I'm wondering, is it something you've come across yourself in your life? Yes. I wanted to make a point of that because, as I say, everything I do has definitely got its feet firmly in real life. And I've been a vintage trader. That was the first career change that I had when I moved to Norfolk. And of course, when you're surrounded by vintage and antiques, you do come across things that in the past would have been acceptable,

that now wouldn't be, you know, certain dolls and, you know, all sorts of different words and terminology that we probably wouldn't use now. And there are times when I had to very politely, I mean, you don't have to be polite to do this, but very politely would say that perhaps that's not the best thing to be on display and explain why. It didn't happen often, but when it happens, I think you do need to say to people that this can be misconstrued. It can be offensive to certain people. You know, you don't want to walk in to an antique shop as a black person and see a doll that has racial connotations to slavery, for instance. And, you know, and that can happen because some things that when in scarcity, they become more valuable, I suppose, to some people.

So there were situations like that that happened in my real life. And I think that you can't really mention antiques and vintage without sort of talking about real life. And so I wanted Daphne to experience those. real things too. Daphne, as I say, is a braver, more vocal person than I was. You know, when you're trying to fit in somewhere, sometimes you can lose your voice a little bit and you have to become braver over time. With Daphne, I can just get right to the point and I can say what you mean. And, you know, so Daphne is a wonderful vessel for me to perhaps redo a few

of those conversations that I never had. She is a wonderful character. I know she's your third book because you've had nonfiction and you've had two novels, fiction. On this, genre. What's next for you? Is it Daphne again? Well, I would love Daphne to continue and to live on. I'd love to see Daphne on the screen, to be honest. I would too. Yeah, I think we need to start a petition for that one. But so I'd love that. But also just more living life as joyfully and trying to encourage other people to do so as possible. Life is hard. We know there's so many grim and awful things going on in the world. And my space on the internet is just hopefully a little bit of happiness and a little bit of a bright spot and the books are too. I mean, of course,

murders happen. That's not the prettiest of things. But they're in a, you know, have a cup of tea, have a bunch of flowers and a slice of cake and then, you know, try and investigate and see who you think did it. Cottage core, cosy crime. Hillhouse Vintage is a place to find it with Paula Sutton, who has the body in the kitchen garden. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much. Lots of you Getting in touch when I lived in Western Australia with no aircon. On hot nights, we'd use a hot water bottle but frozen in the freezer in the day, then wrapped in a towel to stop it freezing your feet in bed, Tony and Sherman. Yeah, I was on to that last night, totally with it.

Right, I want to turn this morning to a story in many of the newspapers. They're talking about the decision by Surrey Police to send undercover female officers out jogging to catch cat callers, right? So men who are harassing women verbally. They went running during rush hour to expose the frequency that women are harassed while exercising in public. A 2021 survey by Runner's World revealed that 84% of women

had been harassed while jogging. A separate study last year by Sport England suggested that three quarters of women changed their exercise routine in the winter. I'm joined now, I'm glad to say, by Inspector John Vale, Borough Commander of Ryegate and Barnstead, and Surrey's violence against women and girls

safer spaces lead. You're very welcome, Inspector. So tell me a little bit more about the behaviour you are looking out for. I mentioned cat callers there. Yeah, good morning. So in reality, it's an issue that we still know relatively little about. As most people don't often realize that they have been a victim of crime, so don't end up reporting incidents to us. A lot of the evidence, as you mentioned, to support the NEFIS operation actually came from national surveys, but we've also had our own female officers and staff reporting the persistent nature

through a street-based harassment whilst running off duty. And, you know, that's been supported by various other local running groups. So in essence, it was a bit of an experiment to see if we could evidence the scale of the issue locally. And also what we've then seen is that it is actually a real problem. And in terms of cat-calling, that essentially is street-based harassment, primarily of women and girls, which is often sexually suggestive. And it might not necessarily be a criminal offence, but it is behaviour, as you said,

that can have a really negative impact on women and how they're. go about their everyday lives. So what do they do when they were cac-cold, for example? So we had an operation towards the end of July. And essentially, you know, we know that someone's slowing down, staring, shouting, even though it's not always criminal, it can have a huge impact on people's everyday lives. As I say, during our last operation in July, two of our plainclothes female officers were targeted within minutes. So firstly, by a male in a lorry who beeped his horn.

and then made gestures out of the window as he passed them. And then a short time later, they were targeted again in a similar way. And on both of these occasions, there were uniformed officers who stopped both vehicles and provided some suitable education for drivers around their actions. You may not be able to tell me this, but I'll be so curious to what to the drivers. How do they react to that or how did they take on any of that information or education? Yeah, so generally speaking, we do get quite a positive response from the drivers and they actually are quite apologetic.

So that's the general response. Obviously, we do get some that aren't willing to change their ways or aren't willing to take on board that advice. You know, you will have seen as well the reaction to this. Some have been critical suggesting that you're hunting pre-crimes. Yeah, I think overall we've had a very positive response from the public. Generally, they're pleased that we're outtaking these measures to protect women and girls in particular, and we've done a lot of engagement with a number of different groups,

including park runs, various other sports groups, and they certainly appreciate the additional measures we are taking. And yes, we have had some less positive feedback from some, including that we obviously could be focusing on other crime types. And clearly that, yes, I agree, there are other issues that we need to be focusing on, but this is about giving the issue of violence against women and girls the attention it deserves. We can't accept that large sections of our communities are purely, are targeted purely because they, are female. It's not about trying to catch people out. It's about preventing crime, preventing women and girls for becoming the victim of crime. I understand there has also been

arrests. What was that in relation to? So the arrests relate to a month of action that we had in July. So this jogon campaign forms part of a much broader, safer spaces plan that we run within Surrey. And generally speaking, that involves the deployment of specialist behavioural detection officers. So they've had enhanced training around detecting predatory behaviours. And we deploy them in plain clothes into locations such as the nighttime economies, so whether that be bars, clubs, transport hubs, etc. And as part of the operations we ran in July, we identified 18 individuals. And not all of those individuals were arrested for offences relating to violence against women and girls. You know, we are out

there to tackle other crime types as well. But it's really positive, I think, that we are, you know, arresting suspects for sexual offences, detecting spiking cases where concerns are raised. And, you know, I'm really clear with this. We're out there to prevent offences taking place if we can identify individuals who we believe are in the area intent on committing these offences that we take action ahead of the offence being committed. Do you think other forces will copy you? I know that a lot of other forces already run similar operations in terms of the deployment of playing closed offices into, as I say, pubs, clubs and that sort of environment. I think we've taken a step further

and we're looking at expanding the sort of the tactics we can use. You know, particular issues that are relevant to Surrey residents. So we know that obviously we don't have a huge nighttime economy in Surrey. So therefore, you know, what are the main issues that are impacting on women and girls? And, you know, one of the things, as I said before, our officers have raised the fact that they are the victim, their residents as well. They have raised the issue that they are targeted whilst they're off duty. So it's about providing that additional capability that we can tackle these issues. I understand. May I ask you about another story leading the news?

You're the public order and public safety commander, as I mentioned, in your area. Today, in new guidance, the National Police Chiefs Council says it will encourage police to disclose the ethnicity and nationality of suspects charged in high-profile investigations. and it follows a series of cases, including one of two men reported to be Afghan asylum seekers charged over the alleged rape of a 12-year-old. Is that some advice something you welcome? It's a difficult thing to manage, really. You know, obviously we are here to ensure that we're policing without for your favour,

that we are not obviously trying to manage community tensions. And we do recognise, you know, the... the contentious nature around a lot of these issues. So where we can, you know, as part of my day-to-day role on the borough commander for an area within Surrey, and we have seen protests locally. And part of my role is engaging with key stakeholders, the wider community, to try and manage those tensions and return the area to an element of normality to some extent. So where we can take additional measures, and this is an additional tool for us, you know,

to calm those tensions, that can only be a positive thing. at the same time it's around tackling that misinformation piece. And of course, if it isn't relevant to asylum seekers, for example, and ethnicity is revealed as part of that investigation or that media released, and can that be then used by certain individuals to fuel that misinformation piece. So it's a really delicate issue to tackle. Yeah, so I suppose you don't have a specific, whether you welcome it or not yet, you just see some of the challenges.

absolutely okay thank you very much for joining us good to have you on inspector john vale borough commander of ryegate and banssted and surrey's violence against women and girls safer spaces lead now i want to turn to an upsetting but an important story my next guest suffered severe hyper-emesis gravodorum or extreme pregnancy sickness often referred to as hg and she suffered so much that she felt forced to terminate her pregnancy sarah spooner is from wales She was unable to eat or drink. She was being sick more than 20 times a day and was unable to get hold of Zonvia,

which is a medication which can be offered by GPs in England as a first-line response to this extreme pregnancy sickness but is more difficult to access in Wales. In a moment I'll speak to Dr. Caitlin Dean from pregnancy sickness support who's in studio with me but I first want to speak to Sarah. Sarah, you're very welcome to Women's Hour. I'm so sorry to hear of what you've been through

but could you tell me how this began for you When did you first experience sickness in a pregnancy? Yeah, so I've had two HG pregnancies. The first was with my daughter, who's now two. I didn't know that I had HG with her. I knew my sickness was abnormal. I was having days where I was being sick, sort of 10, 15 times a day.

And I was sick up until I was 40 weeks with her, so right up until the point she was born. I had blood in my vomit every day from 20 weeks. But it was my first pregnancy and I was kept being told, you know, some people are just sick when they're pregnant. That's normal. But I had a complicated birth as a result of being sick. And then my daughter was ill when she was three days old. She aspirated on her vomit.

And that may have been due to complications from an anti-emetic I was on. Antimetic, which makes you, so you don't vomit. Yeah. And so the whole thing was very traumatic. and I was later diagnosed with PTSD and a lot of that came back to the sickness in the pregnancy rather than anything else and it was then that I started to do a deep dive on what had happened

and I realised that I probably had had HG and that's when I got in touch of pregnancy sickness support and they were they sort of really validated that for me they were like no you did have high premises it's so extreme as well as you describe it there Sarah I imagine then becoming pregnant again would have been a very difficult decision. Yeah.

I've spent the last year and a bit volunteering for pregnancy sickness support as a HG advocate, so working with health professionals to raise awareness for the management and treatment of the condition. I've done a lot of research and I thought that we would be okay

because I thought that, okay, I know the treatment algorithms, I know first line, second line, third line treatment. I know how to advocate for myself. But actually the reality was far worse and far harder than I ever imagined it would be. So you did get pregnant again. And what happened during that time? So I found out I was pregnant in February of this year.

And the first thing I did was go to my GP to try and get some first line antiometics. I was given a medication called Prochlorperiore. which didn't really help very much, and then a medication called cyclazine, which didn't help very much. And then after, when I was about seven weeks pregnant, I'd had a couple of days where I hadn't been able to see properly. I had this visual migraine for two days. And I've eaten a quarter of a piece of toast over two days, and I'd not been able to keep any fluid down. So I went back to the GP and said, please can I try this medication, Zambia? I know a lot of other people have had success with it.

And I was told, well, it's off formulary in Wales, so we can't give it to you. I ended up having an early scan at the hospital and they gave me some zonvier but they gave me a fortnight at a time I live in a very rural area and my husband had to drive me a 50 mile round trip each time to pick it up which when you're being that sick is horrendous

and one time we picked off a prescription it wasn't dated so I took it to the pharmacy and a couple of days later they said we can't give it to you there's no date on this prescription and they've missed the year out. So then you think, oh, I've got another 50 mile round trip. And it just, that whole time, you're getting sicker and sicker, and it's getting harder and harder to do anything. And when you took the zombie, and I know how difficult it was to procure it,

how much did it alleviate your symptoms? It didn't get rid of them entirely. It did help a lot in the mornings. So with my daughter, I'd be awake from 4 a.m., 3am, 4 a.m., being sick. it did get rid of the morning side of things I start being sick maybe about 10 or 11 in the morning instead of 4 a.m. I did need to then start taking other anti-sickness tablets and they were a battle to get hold of as well. I had to, the only place that would give me another medication was an abortion clinic that was 90 miles away. But it did help and actually we made an appointment

after a lot of things went wrong at about 13 weeks pregnant at an abortion clinic and I ran out of Zambia at 1am sorry the day before I was going to just discuss to see how long I had to try and get the sickness under control but the day I ran out I woke up at 1am and I couldn't stop vomiting

and then if it's okay to tell us as well when you began to consider a termination was the only way for you to really be able to survive yeah so when I was nine weeks pregnant I developed a serious eye infection called orbital cellulitis I'm an optometrist so I know how serious this condition is it was on Mother's Day and my husband came home he'd been out for a few hours to see his parents he came home to find me lying on

the floor vomiting and excruciating abdominal pain and I ended up in A&E with two separate medical emergencies in one night and the doctor there said to me you're really ill your body's not coping and i have a little girl she needs her mum and you start to think i can't do this anymore so we made an appointment at an abortion clinic and um i was really upset i was so upset that they said they couldn't do the procedure because they couldn't in good faith do it someone who's so traumatized by the prospect of it. I really wanted that baby. And he said, worst case scenario, you've got seven months left of this. And I thought seven months of this is going to kill me. But I held out for a few

more weeks. And then at 13 weeks, we went to that other appointment and to discuss options. And I was told in Wales, you can't have an abortion after 14 weeks. So I knew at that point, it was, I had to make my mind up. And I was so scared of being dismissed continuously like I was in my first pregnancy. But I thought, okay, I've got no choice. It's so sad. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It's really heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean, it's the worst decision you could ever have to make. And I wish I could say my case was the only one, but there's 3,000 women a year have to terminate their pregnancies because of HG. That's five to six women a day. And in the abortion clinic, the day I was there, they said, oh, we've got a lot of you vomitors here today.

So I'm not the only one. We're all out there. That's quite a flip comment as well I feel with these poor women that are going through what you're going through stay with me Sarah because we want to bring in Dr Caitlin Dean who you'd be familiar with of course from pregnancy sickness support I mean this story that we're hearing

it's just so sad tell us a little bit about how HD or hyper-MS Gravidarium differs from ordinary morning sickness Yeah, so regular pregnancy sickness, and we try to move away a little bit from the term morning sickness because it just sort of belittles it even further and it's rarely limited to the morning. But regular pregnancy sickness, it shouldn't affect your ability to eat and drink to the point where you're losing weight, you're struggling with hydration, you're struggling to just live a normal life to wash, to get dressed, to go to work. anything more than that really is starting to get into the realms of abnormal I mean if it was normal to have sickness to that level

I think the human race probably would have tied out a rather long time ago so really once it starts getting into the realms of I am actually not managing to eat enough to stay healthy and I'm losing weight then really at that point we should be looking at treatment But it is on a spectrum, and at the far end of that spectrum is hyperamysis. And with that, it can be very, very extreme.

I mean, you can have women throwing up sort of 50 times a day, literally not managing to eat anything for days on end, becoming very dehydrated. And, you know, suggesting that that's what all women experience just is nonsense. It's not. Most women don't have it like that. Most women just have waves of nausea now and then throughout the day. maybe being sick once or twice, but still managing to go about their day-to-day life.

And, you know, Sarah explains it so well they're the difficulty she had procuring medication to help her with the symptoms. Is this a problem just in Wales or? Sadly not, no. Things have improved. My children are 17, 15 and 13, and sadly her story is extraordinarily familiar even from that time ago. Because it's something you went through.

Yes, it is, yeah, which is why I, got involved with this. But yes, it's quite depressing that it's still that same familiar story happening, you know, nearly two decades on. But things are improving and there are a lot of women who are managing to get treatment more easily. But it shouldn't be a battle at all. I mean, it just, Zonvia, for example, is a licensed treatment. It's been licensed. It's recommended in guidelines. There's no real risk to the prescriber. with a medication like this because it's been licensed by the MHRA

to be used for this condition in pregnancy. So if women were getting access to that much earlier, we'd probably be preventing an awful lot of women going further down the line, needing hospital admission, needing weeks and weeks off work, and ultimately needing abortions and there's been cases of suicide as well.

I'm so sorry to hear that. If you're affected by some of the issues that you're hearing about, we do have links on the BBC's Action Line. The Department for Health and Social Care in England, they say they recognise that HG is a debilitating condition. They can have a devastating impact on women and their families. They say decisions about what medicines prescribed are made by doctors or healthcare professionals responsible for that part of the patient's care.

Prescribers must satisfy themselves that the medicines they consider appropriate for their patients can be safely prescribed, that they take account of the appropriate national guidance on clinical effectiveness, as well as local commissioning decisions of their respective integrated care boards. Coming back to you, Sarah, you are calling for change for women in Wales particularly. Yeah, so obviously I'd love it to change elsewhere, but I know Kea Starrma has recently mentioned, they will be looking at it in England. Unfortunately, decisions in England don't affect NHS Wales.

Zonvia is the only licensed medication for pregnancy sickness, but in Wales it's off formulary. That means that GPs can't routinely prescribe it. it is safe and it is effective and it won't help all women but it will help a lot of women the argument was made by the all-wales medicine strategy group in 2019 that it is not cost-effective since then things have changed so it is now recommended on the Royal College of obstetrics and gynecology guidelines and on the nice guidelines as a first-line treatment I appreciate it's more expensive than other first-line anti-aimetics

but it could certainly be used sooner. I do have a statement from the Welsh government they say healthcare professionals across Wales can prescribe a range of effective treatments for women suffering extreme pregnancy sickness including Zonvia in exceptional cases where other treatments have failed. I know that hasn't been your experience

or not having it close to hand definitely in an area. GPs in every Health Board in Wales regularly prescribe Zonvia with more than 750 prescriptions to spend since January. We rely on independent advice from NICE or the All Wales Medicine Strategy Group to make medicines routinely available on the NHS in Wales. Without formal Nice guidance, the All Wales Medicine Strategy Group appraisal remains the most current formal evaluation of Zonvia in Wales.

They did not recommend routine use due to insufficient cost-effectiveness data and goes on to say that they continue to engage and the All Wales Medicine Strategy Group with the manufacturer about an updated submission later this year. Neither if you look very positive as I read that statement, Sarah. My feeling is that it's putting the onus on GPs

and GPs are already under immense pressure. They can't be expected to know everything about a condition that isn't something they've seen that often and exceptional is a very subjective statement. Yeah, and I mean the idea that it's not cost-effective is just, I mean, ridiculous, quite honestly. It's a week's worth of this treatment is less than a GP appointment. And when you start factoring in hospital admissions

and interventions like termination, you know, that cost is negligible. And when you look at the cost compared to so many other things, I mean, I sometimes like to compare it to the idea of the cost for IVF because actually, you know, we do try to support women to have babies through IVF and you can have a round of that and so on. This is women trying to have a baby. And this is a relatively cheap drug that would enable her to continue her pregnancy

without further medical intervention. It's just it just doesn't stack up that argument. Sarah, I want to, again, extend my wishes to you. I'm so sorry on what you went through. And I know it's very recent as well. and you're so open and candid speaking to us and wanting to make a change for other women. So thank you so much for coming on to Women's Hour.

That is Sarah Spooner, also joined by Dr. Kaitland Dean. Thank you both for joining us here on Women's Hour. I've been talking about heat and women. We've spoken about that a bit this morning. Here's Sarah from Oxford. She says, I found that shutting out the sun, closing blinds or curtains makes a huge difference to keeping our home cool.

I also walked to the local shops with an umbrella. I use it like a parasol. I find it more comfortable than a hat. 848444. If you'd like to get in touch, many if you do. Obviously thinking about this this morning. Another one, neck-hanging fan, rechargeable. Yeah, I've seen some people wearing them.

I'm 70. It was a gift from my daughter. It is a game changer. 848444. Now, I want to turn to Sydney Christmas. She captivated television audiences when she won Britain's Got Talent, BGT, in 2024. She became the first female singer to win the contest. She's a background in musical theatre

and she impressed the judges with her powerhouse vocals. Amanda Holden, I don't know if you've seen this clip. She was so moved by the audition performance of tomorrow for Manny, of course. She hit that golden buzzer and then Sydney went straight into the live semi-finals. Well, since that win, she's had a debut album, which has topped the iTunes shorts in the UK and US. She's now starring as an arch villain, Cruella DeVille, in 101 Dalmatians and it's a musical playing at the Ventim Apollo in London.

I got to see you on Sunday. Welcome, Sydney. Oh, thank you for having me. What an amazing voice. I was watching, before I went to 101 Dalmatians, I watched your Britain's Got Talent audition. It now has 23 million views I saw this morning. Oh, wow.

It's such a feel-good watch. Get ready to have a little good tears cry as well. And you said you wanted to be on the West End, which you've done. Now you're on stage with this musical, performing in front of thousands of people. How does it feel? It's amazing. It's really, really great.

And it's in the theatre that I, one BGT, so it's so nice to go back. It's a proper full circle moment. But this time you're in a two-tone wig with a giant cape and a lot of fur. Yeah, it's a little bit different. When I was going in, there was like women dressed in Pocodots and people with Dalmatians up their clothing. I'm wondering, were you a fan of the story?

Oh, absolutely, since I was young. Cruella DeVille used to scare the living daylight. Well, I was thinking of that while I was watching her, watching you, should I say. For people who aren't familiar with the story? So, Cruella DeVille, she is a fashionista that obsesses about making clothing out of animal skin. And during the show,

she has this totally bonkers idea that she wants to make a fur coat out of puppy Dalmatian pelt. When you are singing, at times you are able to turn into some evil laughter and then go back to singing. That's some control. I think that laugh actually comes quite natural to me. I don't know any different.

So let's talk about BGT for a few minutes. Right. You tried age 12, then the last four years previously sending in videos before you won, I believe. Oh, where did you hear that? I did try for BGT when I was younger. And, you know, when you got it, you're 30 now. So, you know, God loves the trier, as they say. What was it like to actually make it on and go through at that point?

Because they introduced, I know you had done musical theatre previously, but you were training to become a PT. Yes. Yeah, at the time. Personal trainer at the time. Well, 10 years I was trying to get into musical theatre. And I was trying to get into the West End because I wanted to work here, basically. I moved to Germany and I was in Starlight Express for four years.

It was just impossible to get in the room in London. Four jobs in 10 years was probably not that great. With that voice, that's incredible, you know what I mean? Thank you. But you're the most amazing voice, and it was that difficult for you to do. Yeah, it's a lot of luck. It's a lot of luck and a lot of trying. And basically, if I can say anything to anyone who's don't give up

and just, you know, keep going. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, for sure. So then when it happened, A pinch me moment? Oh, massively. Massively. I think I believe in fate. Do you?

I do. And thank God that I didn't give up because it was just at the moment where I was retraining again. That's when it happened for me. And I just think, thank God that I didn't. Now, when I was watching your grands, two of them beside each other.

Amazing. Are they like your support club? Absolutely. They're amazing, my two nans Do you want to give them a shout out? I do. Nanny Maureen and Nanny Breeder. Oh, and Maureen and Breeder. No better fan women to have.

Excellent. Well, I loved watching them as well and they must have just loved seeing how you're going from strength to strength as well. You were very relaxed during that audition, cracking jokes. No, I was not. You were talking about your middle name was Mary? It's because I was nervous.

I just talk at a rabbit when I'm... She said her middle name was Mary and Amanda Hall then Really, Merry Christmas She's like now I'm joking I told that joke I told that joke to someone yesterday and I know that they're listening

So this is going to be funny That they've learnt that It's not my middle name It is some we're saying You should have perhaps gone out as a comedian You could have branched out as a comedian It's very funny Because I can't tell a joke to save my life

I'm laughing before the end of the joke Well you got 23 million watching that audition So I know you came under criticism and because you had performed musically previously to BGT. How was that? I mean, it's quite something to go from being unknown to being such scrutiny and a spotlight on you and anything you did or didn't do is up for debate online.

It was really bizarre. I remember BGT when the audition got aired being the most amazing thing and I had all my family and friends around to watch this moment that happened to me and then waking up the next day. saying Sydney Christmas lies to the nation. It's just not, one, it's not true.

And it's just really bizarre. Yeah. But have you been able to put that kind of line between yourself? Because it will just eat you up otherwise and you won't do what you love. And I do it for the people that love it, really. You know, you can't please everyone, so what can you do? So some things that have come true

because you said you wanted to be on the West End in that audition and now you are at the top of a musical, You're the protagonist in this musical Also you've been on the West End What I was wondering would be your ideal role on the West End Go on, shout it out now Calamity Jane That would be wonderful

You'd be perfect That is a dream I've loved her since I was young Yeah and I've seen it I mean in small theatres The film I must have seen a million times It's the Doris Day character Yes I was obsessed

and I feel like I'm very similar to her anyway Well you know what we're going to throw it out there Calamity Jane perhaps you'll come back and talk to us about that I know you have the debut album going You've performed in front of King Charles You won 250,000 Have you spent it yet? No

Started? No Saved Saved Yeah I was lucky after BGT that the work started coming in So I could No time to spend it

101 Dalmatians is on at the event of Apollo and Hammer-Smith until the 30th of August. Also a headline solo show at the Adelphian London on the 9th of September. Enjoy it all, Sydney Christmas. Tomorrow women's rugby World Cup. Do join us for that. Deborah Griffin, a pioneer of women's rugby and the first female president of the rugby football union will be right here on Women's Hour. We'll see you then.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Shari Valle. I've been investigating fraud for more. than 20 years. It is not them being gullible or stupid. These are criminals and it's often very organised. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist. Liz, your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism. I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster, but now I help the police to catch

people like me. And that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging. Now to scam secrets on BBC Sounds.