Woman's Hour - Women and homelessness, WTO, The Secret Garden, Unfinished Business: The Fight for Women's Rights

Episode Date: October 21, 2020

The number of women sleeping rough has risen over the last decade and as the economic impact of Covid 19 takes hold, social policy advisers fear the situation could worsen. Female rough sleepers with their complex profile have it worse on the street, and in wider homelessness terms the number of lone women and women with children has soared in temporary accommodation. Katya Adler talks to Dame Louise Casey who, as “Homelesssness Tsar”, championed the “Everyone In” policy which got rough sleepers off the street and into temporary accommodation during the height of the pandemic and Petra Salva, the head of the Rough Sleepers Unit at the charity St. Mungos. A new film version of The Secret Garden is released on Friday. Written by Frances Hodgson Burnett, the book was first published in 1911 and is seen as a classic of English children’s literature. But the story of the author behind the book is far less well known and utterly fascinating. Katya Adler is joined by Ann Thwaite, whose biography of Frances Hodgson Burnett, Beyond the Secret Garden, first came out in 1974 but has been reissued this year, and Lucy Mangan, author of Bookworm, who has loved the novel since she was a little girl. The World Trade Organisation will shortly have a new leader and for the first time in its history it’s going to be a woman. There are two remaining candidates. They are Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala from Nigeria, and Yoo Myung-hee from South Korea. To discuss the candidates, Katya is joined by Allie Renison, Head of Trade and EU Policy at Institute of Directors.On Friday a major new exhibition opens at the British Library. ‘Unfinished Business: The Fight for Women’s Rights’ shows how the work of contemporary feminist activists in the UK has its roots in the long and complex history of women’s rights. Lead curator, Dr Polly Russell joins Katya Adler to discuss the multi-faceted exhibit where you can see everything from personal diaries, banners and protest fashion to subversive literature, film, music and art, women’s voices, stories and experiences. Presented by Katya Adler Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Katya Adler with the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 21st of October. Hello and good morning. On today's programme we'll be hearing how the only international organisation for global trade, the World Trade Organisation, is poised to be run by a woman for the first time in its history. We examine unfinished business, how the modern day fight for women's rights in this country has its roots in UK history. It's the focus of a fabulous new exhibition at the British Library. And the Secret Garden, frankly, who doesn't need one right now

with all the miseries of COVID. But the classic children's book has been made into a new film and we'll find out about the rags-to-riches, colourful story behind the book's author, Frances Hodgson Burnett. But first, we know the coronavirus is spreading again with devastating economic as well as public health impact. The knock-on effect on women's lives is huge, as we've often discussed on this programme. Perhaps your career has taken a hit after your children were off school for such

a long time. Maybe you're a sufferer of the long-term effects of COVID. It's more likely to affect women than men overall. Today, we're looking at homelessness and the rising numbers of women, including women with young children, who are being housed in temporary accommodation. Increased coronavirus restrictions are raising the levels of poverty and destitution in this country, and it's a warning we're hearing loud and clear from local mayors right now. Well, I'm joined by Dame Louise Casey, dubbed the homelessness star, who championed the Everyone In policy to get rough sleepers off the streets

and into temporary accommodation at the height of the pandemic earlier in the year. And also Petra Salva, the head of the rough sleepers unit at the charity St Mungo's. Good morning, both of you. Hi, good morning. Louise, how big is a problem is rough sleeping for women on the streets of the UK? I think the issue for women that are rough sleeping, and Petra knows a great deal more about this than probably anybody else in the country, but the issue is, though the numbers are increasing, the fact is that women who sleep on the streets

are so much more at risk and live so much more dangerous and difficult lives than any others. So it's not just the stigma and the shame that women feel, but the mental health issues are significantly more prevalent in women than in men. And I think the worrying thing for me around rough sleeping and women that are forced to sleep rough is that it is going up um it's it's always a potentially could be seen as a small uh part of the overall population so it's bumped along at sort of 14 15 percent over many years but in the last few years that number is going up and it's going up

quite significantly so i think it's it's two things it's first of all the vulnerability of women sleeping rough and how it is to say it's the last resort is an understatement i can't i can't describe it clearly enough how difficult it is for women to uh to end up on the streets and to stay there lapsed over that is their super vulnerability really particularly around issues of mental health and the fact that that statistic is increasing, not decreasing, and specifically where we have great data is in London. And again, Petra knows more about this than I do. But in London, we see that figure going up. So just in the last year, women rough sleepers has gone up by 25% year on year between 2019 and 2020.

So it's more like 1,700 now. And that actually is up by 54%, i.e. it's doubled in the last couple of years. So that's one thing that worries me. And then there's a whole different but equally important issue that is running around women and children, really, and specifically the now extraordinary high levels of numbers that we've got of kids that are growing up in temporary accommodation, which sounds okay to a lot of people.

Temporary accommodation makes you think that that's all right. It is so not all right. And those numbers are huge. Imagine living in lockdown, you know, you and your children all in a room the size of a car parking space in a supermarket. With your lucky, it's like a microwave or a few rings to heat food. I can't impress upon you how difficult that is, particularly for women and children in temporary accommodation, which is not just in London, but nationwide.

We'll be getting to more of those details in just a moment. But Petra, Louise made a number of distinctions there. But one big one, of course, was when we speak about homelessness for women, it's one aspect is sleeping on the streets and the other, those without a steady home, a permanent home above their heads. How much are both of these numbers increasing as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, would you say? Well, I mean, one of the greatest challenges we have is understanding the extent of the rough sleeping population amongst women, because as Louise said, the numbers over the last 10 years have risen.

The problem is, is that with the data set that we have, we know that women are grossly underrepresented because of the way we collect that data. So whilst women are overrepresented under statutory homelessness figures, the pyramid comes really down once they hit the street and once they once uh women uh sleep rough those figures reduce dramatically and they reduce because women are less visible and they're less visible because there is a uh

they have a greater reliance on informal arrangements, so they are more likely to be hidden homeless. And the reason for that is because of the women hide, they think safety first. You know, rough sleeping is harmful for everyone. And as Louise said, but it's incredibly, incredibly dangerous activity, but it's even more dangerous for women. So women move by night, they dress like men, they avoid services because services tend to be over-represented, you know, sort of geared more to men. And women are more at risk of violence and sexual abuse. So the figures are a gross underestimate. And so we find, you know, our teams from St. Mungo's are out there day in, day night. And we find that women are much more hidden and as a result,

in much more precarious, dangerous situations. I mean, our own data revealed that from the residents that we have in our current accommodation, about 33% of those said that domestic abuse contributed directly to them becoming homeless. So I think one of the real problems is that we don't know the extent of the problem and we need to get better at understanding the extent of the problem. Well, Louise, you do speak about that wider extent of the problem very often, not just the amount of women and women with children in need of accommodation, but also food. You say that, especially coming into the winter months now, it's a question of will these women and children have enough food to eat? I mean, just today, Parliament is going to be hearing and talking about school meals and whether they should continue into the holidays again.

We've got half term and of course, Christmas isn't that far away either. Well, I think that's right. I mean, I am some of these things that I find really frustrating. And somebody that's worked within the system for many, many years is some of this is just avoidable. I'll come back to food in a second. But just on the homelessness front, we know, for example, that women who are in prison or in custody, when they leave prison, we know at that point, and I think Anne Owers the very very sort of you know undramatic uh non- campaigning uh chief inspector of prisons uh found that six in ten women that left prison have no safe housing to move on to so what frustrates me sometimes about about how we tackle things is that we can see what we could do to prevent it from happening in the first

place. I think the second thing is one can't underestimate the impact that local government cuts has had not only on colleagues in running services in local government, but also in organisations like St Mungo. So, you know, it's not like these organisations haven't had a decade of austerity in terms of trying to run services. My current concern is really about this population of people who are being pushed into abject poverty. And I think Covid, the sort of 80 percent, two thirds around income just won't cut it for some of these families and you think of a lone mum who's trying to keep the show on the road as it were throughout these last few months will now suffer yet another cut to her income and you know that's why I think it's one of the reasons we've seen the rise in people women and families approaching local authorities as homeless

and why i think we need to have a look at this not just in terms of the government what they do with their spending review and how we get through the next six twelve months but actually i think we all need to think about and i was talking to colleagues in london local authorities yesterday about are we ready to make sure that every sort of food hub or food bank has what it needs like food banks used to be things that probably listeners to this program would when they go shopping they make a donation of something you know at the end of the shop to the to the food bank or they give regularly but actually we need to be much more proactive now and make sure that

families that have very little or are really suffering, actually all of those really relief services have got what they need to get through, not just to Christmas, but actually Christmas and beyond. I think we need to be planning for six months of people in need. And we still operate vouchers. So many people that use food banks actually have to go somewhere else first physically, they have to go to assist as advised advisor they have to go to their gp they have to go up the social to talk to social workers then they get a voucher which enables them to get food from the food bank and i think some of these things need to be looked at and you know over and over again women are disproportionately affected by poverty women are disproportionately affected by having to be the people that keep families

together. And it's women that the number is rising in terms of what I would call statutory homeless, i.e. that you're actually accepted as homeless by a local authority and they put something over your head. At the moment, in many areas in London, we're sticking those families into converted office blocks with rooms the size of car parking spaces for all of their families. So it was pretty bad before Covid. Covid has added a whole layer to this, which we just need to be prepared for. And we just need to get on with it and get on with it now. And finally, Petra, if you could, I mean, Louise is there talking about the danger of sliding into abject poverty. We just heard today the mayor of Nottingham talking, warning that coronavirus restrictions, the economic impact could increase the levels

of what he called destitution in the area that he's responsible with. I mean, it sounds almost Dickensian, the word destitution. We've heard that earlier. Louise was talking about, you know, the cramped conditions people live under or just living with a microwave. Just, you know, just just briefly, just really paint a picture for for what these these families, these women, lone women or women with children are facing right now. I mean, I think it's I think destitution is a good word and it can't be overstated. I mean, you know, we're still in a public health crisis. And, you know, we're back to numbers on the streets that we were back in March before COVID. Like Louise said, things were bad, you know, before COVID. They're just as bad now. You know, to paint the picture, let me do this. I mean, I went out on the streets back in March, April, and what I saw was pretty horrendous and horrific.

Everything was closed, everything was shut up. The people that were on the streets and the women in particular, were women suffering from, you know, mental health issues who didn't have the capacity to make decisions for themselves, and didn't have the ability to make positive choices. So, you know, that's at the acute end. The other side is that, you know, one of the things I didn't mention is that in terms of data, if we look at the data in the last five years, one of my worries is that it's actually a younger population. Women tend to be sort of sleeping rough and becoming homeless around 25 years of age and with increasing

complex needs. Now this is, you know, and with mental health and black British women are overrepresented in this group. So, you know, this is something which, you know, we're storing up problems for the future. When we work with people on the streets and women on the streets who have been there for a long period of time, it's really hard to reverse that damage. It's really hard to reverse it. We have an option, an opportunity to prevent it. So I don't think that the term that Louise is using is destitution is over-egging it. I think we're in for a really rough ride. And I think that it is absolutely true that women will, you know, no doubt bear the brunt of it. Petra Salva and Dame Louise Casey, thank you very much for joining us this morning. Now, for those of you used to seeing and hearing me on the news, I'm often talking about Brexit

and whether there'll be a trade deal with the EU this year, or if we'll end up without, and trading with Brussels under World Trade Organization rules instead. Now, the WTO, the World Trade Organization, is the only international organization dealing with global trade. It's got 164 members, so that means it represents 98% of world trade. And for the first time in its history it looks set to have a female leader, a non-European woman of colour. To tell us more about the two front runners for the job and how they might impact our lives I'm joined by Ali Renneson, the Head of Trade and EU Policy at the Institute of Directors. Hi Ali. Morning. I should say congratulations because you're soon to be senior policy advisor of IOD as well.

So congratulations on that. Now, the UK's former international trade secretary, Liam Fox, had put his hat in the ring for the World Trade Organization top job. But the two front runners are now Nigeria's Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala. She was on Woman's Hour a couple of months ago talking about women in high profile leadership positions. And also South Korea's Yoo Moong-hee. Could you tell us a little bit more about them? Of course. So thank you, everyone. Hope you can hear me. You never know with Wi-Fi these days. I think it's important to stress that, you know, yes, there are two women at the helm vying for the final spot.

But these are two very capable women in and of themselves. You know, I'm not sure it's necessarily right to confer anyone content if they are there simply by virtue of their gender. They're two very experienced women in their respective fields. For Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, she was the former finance minister of Nigeria and prior to that, managing director at the World Bank. In fact, she was in the running at one point to become president. So she's got a lot of international clout experience. She hasn't got that much specific focus on trade itself, although having listened to some of her interviews, she makes a fairly compelling case that in terms of her ability to negotiate as finance minister with, for example, other members of the other parts of the world, that she actually has that experience to try and make progress.

And it's also worth mentioning that she sort of also chairs, and I think this may be relevant, should she win the nomination, should she become the DG spot, she chairs the Global Vaccine Alliance Summit that the UK is a sort of big party to and actually put on a summit for a few months ago. So I think for her it will also be an interplay with how does the pandemic and the WTO function sort of intersect. And then you've got sort of from South Korea, Yung-Hee. She is probably much more experienced in terms of a trade negotiator.

She's a very, some might say, successfully aggressive trade negotiator. She's managed to negotiate and wield the bridge with the U.S. in the past. And so she's probably more, they are both in effect technocrats rather than politicians. But I would say that perhaps she has a bit less international experience, but more focus on the detail. So she'd probably hit the ground running, so to speak. I think it really depends if you're looking at what really these in this race? Is it about trying to get the WTO to make progress on trade negotiations? It's not really had, apart from one significant one, a multilateral trade agreement in 25 years. Or is it about trying to restart what's already stalled at the moment?

So, for example, the dispute settlement board that's actually been stalled because of some of the US administration actions. And that really means that effectively countries are free to engage in a lot of tit for tat trade wars, probably a bit more freely because the dispute settlement war can't really effectively reach a final decision. And I think thirdly... No, do carry on, Ali. And I think thirdly, just it's important to sort of recognize that in terms of, you know, the focus, which we'll probably come to in a minute on on women's inclusion in trade policy, and that intersection with sort of developed, the developing world is a big focus, I think, for both, but in particular, Ngozi. Well, well, let's do come to that, then, because the WTO says that trade is an important

part in women's economic empowerment. It says it wants to build a more inclusive trading system. I mean, are these just nice sounding words? Is it reality? And could you have more stress on this if a woman becomes leader of the WTO? I think it becomes a lot, certainly, to take that in reverse, easier for a woman to own that sort of space. And certainly, looking in particular, I think, at the career to date and the focus of Nkojo Iwalach, that is certainly something that has in terms of, you know, when it comes to not only Nigeria, but Africa and parts of the developing world, lifting that up and sort of making sure that we're talking about what is it that, and I think we saw some of that in the lead up to this program, what is it that matters for women's empowerment, economic empowerment? It's

not just about trade in itself. I think one of the things that's worth noting is that only about 15 percent of exporting firms globally are run by women. So it's as much, I think, about using trade and trade rules to lift up and include the awareness of the impact of trade on women and vice versa. There was a declaration in 2017 called the Buenos Aires Declaration. Not all 164 members of WTO have backed it, but a fair number of them. And that's really effectively trying to outline the impact and the relevance of women to trade and making it make more sort of gender responsive trade policies. But in effect, it's probably worth mentioning that at the end of the day, the DG, the director general, the top spot at the WTO, it's really a facilitating role.

It's ultimately down to the members of the countries to enforce and to do anything really about it. I wanted to ask you because, I mean, the DG role, so the chief of the WTO, has been compared in the past to a butler who just announces to the, know to the members of of the WTO club that that dinner is served so whoever becomes the next head of the WTO how much power will we're presuming it to she but it's not 100% definite um will have and if uh the UK does leave um the the well the EU it doesn't have a trade deal with the EU by the end of this year. How much influence would that head of the WTO have over what terms the UK would then trade with Brussels? Well, as you said, I mentioned it's a facilitating role. And so I think it's really what the Canada is going to make of it. I mean, most people would agree that the WTO and its functions have become fairly stalled. It's really more important and well known now for dispute settlement and

resolution, although it can't even do that at the moment. And I think that's why you had some, for example, Liam Fox, who was a late entrance into the UK's nomination. His argument, his contention was that the WTO really needed a politician to move mountains, as it were, and get people on board with changing the focus and moving in progress in areas that they hadn't. Because what we've seen in the past, when there have been multilateral negotiations, you know, they often tend to potentially break down over sort of subsidy control. And that's a big thing for developing countries is, you know, they're not necessarily willing to move on market access and tariff reductions,

for example, if there's a big expectation for them to give away their control over subsidies. And that's sort of it's interesting, a level playing field argument, while it doesn't attract the same level of sort of enforcement issues and trade negotiations, it is still a big issue for the WTO's agenda. And so I think it will really depend on whether these candidates are able to get the big players, the US, for example, on board with sort of restarting that function. And that may also depend to some extent on the outcome of the US election. Absolutely. And just the whole question about whether these international organisations like the WTO have had their day or whether they continue into the future. But that's for another day, Ali. Thank you so much, Ali Renneson, Head of Trade and EU Policy at the Institute of Directors for joining us there. Now, still coming

up in the programme today, unfinished business. We're going to explore the roots of the modern day fight for women's rights in UK history. And you may have heard earlier on Radio 4 that a new study from King's College and the company Zoe has found that women are more likely to develop long COVID. Those are the symptoms that last longer than the usual two weeks. I just mentioned that a little bit earlier on in the programme as well. It's something we've been following here on Women's Hour. On Friday, Jane will be talking to a panel of experts and campaigners and hearing your stories also of living with long COVID. There's something to cheer us up, perhaps, or at least a bit of balm for the soul.

A new film version of the children's book, The Secret Garden, is being released this Friday. It was written by Frances Hodgson Burnett and the book was first published in 1911. But I bet a lot of you read it as children. It is a children's classic. And it just all seems so bleak out there. Just the idea, at least for me, of having a secret garden that I could hide in and that might make the world seem a better place is very appealing. But it is quite intriguing how the story has stayed such a firm favourite, even in the modern day.

And even more fascinating, as we're about to hear, the history of Frances Hodgson Burnett, the author behind the book. Well, joining me, Anne Thwaite. And, of course, you wrote a biography of Frances Hodgson Burnett back in 1974. It's been reissued this year. Good morning to you. Good morning. And Lucy Mangan's also joining us

the author of bookworm a memoir of childhood reading uh you say you've loved the novel since you were a little girl lucy i have yes well before we delve into our discussion let's just hear a short clip from the film out on friday should i tell you story? It's the story of an orphan girl who was sent to live in a mysterious house. Don't expect luxury. Mistletoe is not the place it was. And what if I were to tell you

she discovered something magical? Something... secret. Follow me! I knew you were hiding something. This garden, it's capable of extraordinary things. Now, will you believe in the magic? Will you believe in the magic?

Now, you won't believe in magic if I tell you that you can rush out to your cinemas um on friday to watch the film because um some of us can't of course because of covid19 but the film will also be released on sky cinema channels on friday as well first of all for those of you who aren't familiar with the story lucy as an enthusiast of the secret garden can you briefly sketch out the story and the magic for us? Well, it's the story of an orphan child called Mary, who is quite a horrible child when she first turns up at Misselthwaite Manor to be looked after by her uncle. And after that, it's basically got a little bit of everything that you want in a story. It's got a mysterious ill child who she discovers sort of wailing alone in a story. It's got a mysterious ill child

who she discovers sort of wailing alone in a room. And she discovers, centrally, obviously, that there is this amazing secret, locked up for years after a terrible accident, a garden within the grounds, a wall uh garden within the grounds walled garden within the grounds and she finds the key to and then starts to take care of and nurture and and bring back to life with the help of dickon who is some people's first crush uh i think yours i think you you refer to him in rather crush like terms when you've written about the book? I did. I think I called him a

proto-sex god, which may be going a little far. Anyway, especially on a family program. they bring this garden back to life together and in doing so, obviously, sort of restore their own spirits or Mary's own spirits and they bring in Colin, who's the sick child and let the magic of of

nature really um work upon them and it's it captures just there's just the most ethereal of or ineffable of of things which is which is the power of nature, I guess, to move us and restore us. Is it the power of nature or more, actually, that draws readers to this story and parents to read the story to their children, generation after generation? Well, it's got that enduring quality, or it's got the quality that makes it endure, I guess, which is that you can take that sensation she creates and the power she evokes and call it whatever you like. I've always seen it as a celebration of nature because I'm not inclined to look for magic anywhere,

especially when there's sort of real stuff to cling on to. But more romantically inclined people and different eras have read different things into, you know, the power of love, maternal instinct, liberation of various kinds are all in there or you know actual factual magic as it were if you if you really want to to look for a sort of supernatural element you can find that in there as well so so and lucy's giving um us an idea of some of the the lessons uh that you might draw or or or or get from the story itself your biography of francis h Hodgson Burnett, the author of the story, Beyond the Secret Garden, tells us about her incredible story of rags to riches. But also you see her as a feminist icon, too. I do. I mean, when I was looking for a subject for a biography, I wanted to write about someone I could admire, and I was a fledgling feminist. And what attracted me was her determination to lead an independent life, a writer's life, unhindered by her gender,

in a 19th century world that had very narrow ideas of how a woman should behave. But I do want to go back to The Secret Garden for a moment because I just think one of the most extraordinary things about it is the way that it has survived all these years, remained such a favorite book when, at the time of Frances Hodgson Burnett's death, it wasn't even mentioned in her Times obituary. And she was most famous for Little Lord Fauntleroy, which is now, of course, a book that's hardly read at all. There's a very good film version without Guinness as the boy's grandfather. You know, it is very interesting the way that certain books survive.

And this certainly deserves to. It is a brilliant book and a book that adults can enjoy as much as children. And I think her life is also an extraordinary story. I mean, she was a great storyteller. And she rose from, I think you said at the beginning, Katya, that rags to riches with her own story. And it was indeed, she had extreme, she arose from extreme poverty, left England. A lot of Americans think that she's American,

but she is English. She was born in England. She became an American citizen very late in life, but she spent at least half her life on this side of the world. She was very fond of Europe, by the way, that might interest you particularly. She spent a fond of Europe, by the way, that might interest you particularly. She spent a lot of time in Italy and Germany and Austria. She was a wonderful woman,

extraordinary for her time, an extraordinary example to the young today, perhaps. She left Manchester at the age of 15 with her family, fatherless family, invited to America by their uncle and faced, as it happened, extreme poverty in Tennessee. And then she became one of the richest women in the world. I think at one point she was the richest writer in America, not just the richest woman. It's a story well worth reading, and I hope people will read it. She also, though, she has an incredible lifestyle, as you say, and she sort of crossed the Atlantic, crisscrossed the Atlantic and across Europe several times in her life. She had two husbands. She had all this incredible success with her writing. But you do pick up in your biography

that she got frustrated with her writing and the pressures on her and also seemed to write about life as being a bit of a disappointment to her, like a party where everyone dances. And then she says, but was there anyone who really went to the party? Do you feel that she missed the party of her own life? Well, I was lucky enough, because I was doing my research 50 years ago, to meet her daughter-in-law, and she had written a children's biography of her mother-in-law

called Happily Ever After. And I said to her, actually, I think it was rather a tragic life. And I think it's true. And one of the strange things is that I think a lot of people in these hard times find it quite comforting to know that someone who was so successful and so rich wasn't necessarily happy and that actually her happiest times were in the garden. She was a great gardener, a real gardener, and she also loved children, which is not always the case with children's writers.

But I'm thinking of her in Mason, the place where she lived in Kent at one point, and had a lot of contact with the children of the village, gave parties for them and so on, had children stay. And she was... My voice isn't very good this morning. I am rather old, and my voice in the morning is not very good. Sorry.

We're loving listening to you and your voice, Anne. I'm not speaking very well, I'm afraid. I think you've spoken beautifully about Frances Hodgson Burnett and I look forward very much to watching The Secret Garden coming out at at cinemas non-sky cinema channels This Friday, but it's very different from the book As is often the case and isn't it isn't it and wait? Thank you so much for joining us and Lucy and Mayans well who a writer but who is inspired I believe to take to the garden at yourself when you you, after reading it, but not for all that long.

Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Thank you. Now, if you could, how would you make the world a fairer place for women? Would it be education for all, universal childcare, free contraception? On Friday at the British Library, there's going to be a major new exhibition opening. Don't worry, COVID can't stop you from seeing it, as we'll hear in a minute. The exhibition is called Unfinished Business, the Fight for Women's Rights, and it shows how the work of contemporary feminist activists in the UK has its roots in the history of women's

rights. Now, I'm joined by the leader of the exhibition, Dr. Polly Russell. Polly, it's such an incredibly varied exhibition. We're going to get to see personal diaries, banners, protest, fashion, subversive literature, art. Why this exhibition in this form and why right now? So Unfinished Business, so wonderful to be able to speak about it, which opens this Friday, explores, like you said, this kind of current moment of activism that's happening right now. And it connects it to this really long and rich history of fights for women's rights. to try and take account in the exhibition of different voices and perspectives and recognise that the freedoms and oppressions were not equally experienced by different women at different times. So we're trying to do something really quite ambitious. And as you say, we do this through 180 objects and we've got all sorts of different formats, banners, manuscripts, posters, clothing.

Just trying to really connect the present moment with the past with this exhibition. And why do you think it's so important to understand that connection with the past? It's something you feel very passionately about. Well, I think it's important because, well, first of all, I think it's absolutely fascinating. So, I mean, that's one good reason it's really fascinating. But also, you know, of course, we can all learn lessons from the past. And they can be lessons of like what went well, what went badly, what could what strategies could be used for the future. But also, it's incredibly inspiring.

You know, you walk around the exhibition and at moments you feel completely infuriated with the way in which women were constrained, had to lead their lives, were so limited, both in the past and in some cases in the present too. But what you get a sense of is, you know, women's tenacity, ingenuity, their humour, the sense in which, you know, that they have been able to enact change. And so it's also a kind of galvanising exhibition, I suppose, in that it hopes to engage people in the discussions and the debates and to provide them with ideas about how change is possible. And of course, a reminder that, you know, we're often in many cases, some advancements have been made, but we're fighting for the same thing. So whether it's a Black Lives Matter movement, the Me Too movement about gender rights, the

rights of a woman over her own body, you've divided up the stories of so many women in this exhibition by the theme of body, mind and voice. I find that fascinating. How did you come to that decision? Well, the exhibition, one of the things we've tried to do is to highlight the contemporary activist moments that are taking place now, how we've done that across the exhibition, which is divided into three main sections, body, mind and voice, body, mind and voice being areas in which women have had to struggle, fight in order to have

autonomies and freedoms. Every one of the sections, which then split into three further sections. So there are nine areas in our section. Hello. Switch campaigns for more women in science. We have the Glasgow Women's Library in our section on recovery, on feminist recovery and archives and memory. So we've really tried to put contemporary ideas and moments at the sort of... Oh, Dr Polly Russell, I'm afraid we seem to be having problems with your line. We will be trying to have a look at this exhibition ourselves to learn more about it. It's opening

on Friday at the British Library. If you can't go in person, there is a digital version of it as well. And it really reads like a fascinating exhibition and sounds like one as well. Now, we're going to turn to some audio snapshots of women of all ages on backgrounds as they answer personal questions about their life, love, childhood fears and also confess what makes them tick here on Women's Hour. Our reporter, Abbie Holick, went into the subway in Glasgow and spoke to this woman as she was on her way out of St Enoch's station. Abbie asked what her life was like growing up in Govan in Scotland. Rough. My mum was sick and it was just me and her. But it was as much as she could make

it as. She made it possible for me to have a proper childhood. What was wrong with your mum? She had cancer. She died two years ago. Quite a rough time but I managed to move on, get on with my life. So what are you doing at the moment? I'm a student at Glasgow City College. I've met a lot of friends and I really like my course. Who helped you once your mum died? My aunt, she became my guardian after my mum died. She's always been like a second mother to me. She helped me out a lot. And what do you think it taught you? That life's too short. Don't sit

around waiting for a phone call from a guy. Just if you want him to phone you, you phone him. Don't sit around waiting for a phone call from a guy. Just, if you want to help me phone you, you phone him. Don't, just don't wait for things. Just go and get them if you want it. What are you studying? Hospitality management. So what's the dream situation in a couple of years' time? Where would you like to be? I'd love to be a pastry chef.

It's always been a dream of mine. It started out as a hobby, but now it's just sort of like something to keep me calm. And what's the happiest memory you have? When I was six my mum took me to Edinburgh for my birthday. I was a big Star Wars fan and she took me to this Star Wars convention thing in Edinburgh. And that was just a really great day. Do you talk to your aunt a lot about your mum now? Yeah, she stays with me

um at first it was hard for me to talk about my mum but now it's easier sort of like just remembering all the good times that we had together. And what would you say to other young people who might be in the same position as you or have experienced grief at such a young age? Don't bottle it all up talk to someone because I bottled it all up then for like four years later. I sort of like got really angry and went down the wrong path and started doing things that my mum wouldn't have agreed with but talk, just talk to someone that's all I can really say it helps, it really does help. Just a snapshot of life there from Glasgow subway station here on Women's Hour. And apologies again for the difficulty of the line there when we was talking about the new brand new exhibition at the British Library.

Such a shame we couldn't continue there. But such are the challenges of broadcasting right now with COVID restrictions. Here are just some of your tweets and emails. When we were discussing homeless women, we heard from Sarah, who writes, I'm sure many listeners to the programme, like myself, with extra accommodation, would gladly offer a spare room to a homeless person if I knew that it could be done safely and securely. Also on the programme, we were discussing The Secret Garden.

There's a new film based on the book coming out on Friday. Trevor says, my grandfather, George Millam, was the gardener at Maytham Hall, where Frances Hodgson Burnett was living just before she wrote The Secret Garden. She transposed the walled garden from Maytham to the more romantic Yorkshire Moors, of course. Trevor says, I'm currently finalising a book about my grandfather and his son, my dad, who was also a gardener, and kept his garden diaries, which make fascinating reading. Thanks very much for that, Trevor. Julie wrote to us about the author, Frances Hodgson Burnett, as well,

and said she loved children too, which isn't always the case with children's writers. And Caroline wrote in to remind us about another classic by the author, The Little Princess. Caroline says it's an enduring tale for our times. Another one, just like The Secret Garden. Do join me on the programme tomorrow, where I'll be speaking to Sister Bliss, DJ, songwriter and one of Britain's most iconic and long-lasting female electronic artists. She's perhaps best known as a member of the band Faithless. They've got a new album out, All Blessed, their first album for 10 years. A new podcast from BBC Radio 4, Children of the Stones.

The village is the sort of place people get murdered in in old TV shows. A village surrounded by an ancient stone circle. The stones are thirsty. A village with an impossible secret. The stones are changing people. I look and I'm straight in the eye and I see what's there. Witches. Bliss.

Subscribe to Children of the Stones on BBC Sounds. She's coming. Happy day. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.