Woman's Hour - Women and Labour, Zarifa Ghafari, Leicester women united

Episode Date: September 28, 2022

Sir Keir Starmer delivered his speech to the Labour Party conference yesterday. It comes as YouGov polling shows women would be more likely than men to vote Labour if an election were held now. What's behind this? Former Tony Blair aide for over 10 years Baroness Sally Morgan joins Emma Barnett alongside Anoosh Chakelin Britain Editor at the New Statesman.Actor Gwyneth Paltrow decided to pose naked, mostly covered in gold body powder, and then posted her photos on social media saying she had learned to accept 'the marks and the loosening skin, the wrinkles' that come with turning 50 and her decision was 'more about the female gaze and just a sense of fun'. Is there power to be gained from going naked? Emma speaks to economist and author Dr Victoria Bateman who protested against Brexit naked on TV, and walked naked into the drinks reception at the Royal Economic Society Conference.A group of grandmothers, mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters from Leicester have called for an end to the clashes involving mainly young men from sections of the Muslim and Hindu communities. The tensions in the city, which started last month following an India and Pakistan cricket match and the spread of misinformation on social media, resulted in large-scale disorder on 17th September on the east side of the city. This has led to nearly 50 arrests, 158 crimes being recorded and nine people being charged. The arrests have included people from outside of the city. The group of South Asian women of Muslim, Hindu and Sikh faiths in Leicester issued a joint statement at the weekend saying "As strong proud Asian women, we know that when Leicester is united, it can never be defeated.” Joining Emma are local Labour Councillor Rita Patel who is Hindu and Yasmin Surti, a Muslim mother of three and Secretary of the Federation of Muslim Organisations in Leicester.Zarifa Ghafari was the youngest woman to become a mayor in Afghanistan, before having to flee the country last year after threats on her life by the Taliban, once again back in charge. Zarifa sadly knows first hand the brutality of the regime, as only weeks after another assassination attempt on her life failed in 2020, the Taliban killed her father. Her story forms the basis of a new Netflix documentary called In Her Hands and a book called Zarifa. She joins Emma from Germany, where she and her mother, fiance and six siblings now live in safety.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today you will find, for your listening pleasure, that the economy and posing naked are entwined. But before I get to that, a woman is running the country and yet analysis of a new poll which puts Labour ahead of the Conservatives by 17 points shows Labour is doing particularly well with women should there be an election. But is this the case with you? And if it is, are you actively turning towards Sir Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party, and what he's saying as the next prime minister? Or is it a case of turning away from Liz Truss and the Conservatives and Labour being the only major option to which you feel you can turn.

Let me know. 84844. I'm intrigued to hear where you are with this, because, of course, we know polls are far from perfect. And, of course, you, with your views this morning, may have only just changed. They may be changing. They may have been different for a while. Do let us know.

Do get in touch on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. As Gwyneth Paltrow poses naked, painted gold for a photo shoot to mark her 50th birthday, would you? Have you marked any key milestones in your life with nudity or tried to make a point naked?

I'll be joined by an economist today who famously tried to make her point about Brexit on national TV and radio in the buff. Have you, though? Have you posed naked? If so, why, where and when? And who saw? Who was meant to see? The same number, 84844 is what you need to text me. We're also open to pictures, of course, on email, through the Women's Hour website. Do get in touch. Coming up on today's programme, we'll also be hearing from two of the women in Leicester

trying to make their point, calling for an end to the clashes involving mainly young men from sections of the Muslim and Hindu communities there. And formerly Afghanistan's youngest female mayor, Zarifa Ghaffari, will be joining me to talk about surviving the Taliban's assassination attempts on her life and since she escaped from her motherland last year, how her life is looking today. Now, the Labour leader was with my colleagues on the Today programme this morning following his speech to the Labour Party conference in Liverpool yesterday.

Sir Keir Starmer talked about the party's fiscal plans and the aim to create a publicly owned renewable energy company. He was also asked about accusations of being dull and had this to say. Let me tell you the most exciting thing, the birth of my children. It was absolutely incredible to see the two most wonderful beings come into the world. Not only excited me when they were born, it's excited me every single day since. And if people think that's boring, I don't care. For me,

that is crucially important. I love it. But I don't shy away from the fact when we're facing a period of great uncertainty, we've got conflict in Ukraine, we've got a cost-of-living crisis, we've got a government that's lost? We've got conflict in Ukraine. We've got a cost of living crisis. We've got a government that's lost control of the economy. Do we need a serious person steering the country calmly

and confidently to a better future? I think the answer to that is yes, not someone who's... If I came on and said I'd done a bungee jump, you wouldn't say, well, great, now we've got the prime minister we need. The leader is riding high after polling gave his party a 17-point lead in a YouGov survey conducted with the Times newspaper. Other polls show a more modest swing to Labour. But here on Woman's Eye, we've taken a look at the data of that YouGov poll and it shows Labour doing particularly well among women.

50% of women polled say they would vote for Labour if an election were held now, compared to 25% of women who would vote for the Conservatives. For men polled, the gap between the two parties wasn't so pronounced, actually, with 39% voting for Labour and 32% voting for the Conservatives. Well, what's behind this? Yesterday, Sir Keir called it a Labour moment and pointed to historic victories for his party in 1945, 1964 and 1997. One woman who was central to that 97 victory was the Labour peer, Baroness Sally Morgan. She was one of the former Prime Minister Tony Blair's closest aides for over 10 years and when she resigned from her post in 2005,

The Guardian called her one of the most powerful women in Britain. I spoke to her shortly before we came on air and asked her whether this moment felt similar to the pre-1997 election. I think there's a similarity in the sense that I think there's a, the government's run out of, well, it's run out of steam, but therefore it's gone wild. I mean, I don't think John Major could be described as wild and risky. And I think we're now in a period where the current government is wild and risky. So I think that's different. But I think people are yearning for feeling that somebody will lead a way forward that actually won't be glib and won't make false promises and recognise it's going to be tough, but will provide a sort of calm way through. Because I think people want, they sort of want security. I think they want to be able to plan.

And I think at the moment people are genuinely terrified. Some people are, not everybody. I think a lot of people are, Emma. I don't know, it's just I've learnt in my job making generalisations about the whole British public is a dangerous game. All of women, by the way. Yeah, of course. And we'll get to women in just a moment if we can. I mean, you talk about also the government being wild. I mean, some may say it's being risky. Some may agree with your characterisation, but some may think, well, what we've been doing hasn't been working.

And we do have a new prime minister and they don't see anything remotely wild about it? I think very few people think that. I think what's really interesting, I mean, look at the IMF overnight and the range of business people, economists. I mean, people across the field are extremely worried that the thing doesn't add up. There is that concern, but does that then equal support for Keir Starmer or is that anti the government? Because that's really what's the question here from your expertise. I think the switch, I think there was a significant switch actually yesterday

where I think Keir's done the heavy lifting of taking on the government, sorting out the Labour Party. I think, in many ways, honestly, for the first time, he looked like a compelling Prime Minister in waiting. And I think that is the switch. And I think over the next two years, he will make sure and has to make sure that the Labour Party A, holds together, which I think it was evident yesterday and is evident going sort of around the place. But I think more than that has to start to tell a compelling story that makes people feel confident about the Labour Party and not make good promises, not say it's all going to be fine,

but say this is going to be tough. But again, though, couldn't you challenge this idea of yesterday was the day that this looked like this, because he's just been handed what some would just be described as a gift of all these different types of commentators and organisations having concern about the government's latest move. What has he actually done any different? I was looking at how he was received by, for instance, some of the sketch writers. Yes, they talked about him being a bit more confident, perhaps his voice being a bit more in there. And these things may sound superficial, but you have to also have the confidence that somebody is going to be a good leader. But has he actually done anything different? Or has he just been in the right place at the right time? I think this week, there's been a

much more compelling policy platform. And in the end, you know, one of the things that's always difficult, I think, when we're in politics is that with the greatest respect to the media, and I'm not particularly saying this about Women's Hour, there is an obsession about sort of processology rather than really thinking, what are they setting out here and what might change? So I think his announcement on energy, I think the commitment to rebuilding the health service, I think today you'll see stuff coming out on childcare.

I think there's going to be a serious delivery of a set of policies that would make the country move forwards. And I think, you know, interestingly, from the point of view of this programme, is that a lot of them have actually got serious women developing them. So I think, you know, having Rachel Regan in the Shadow Chancellor post is really important. Processology. I must look that up. Thank you for giving me a new word for my lexicon. Yes, a serious woman in the chancellor post, but got a serious woman, some would argue, of course,

running the country and having a woman at the top of Labour is something Labour has yet to achieve. I wouldn't now think Liz Truss was a serious person running the country, actually, but, you know, maybe that's for another day. You and I seem to be debating what most people think. But it's a tricky game, as I say, to know what most people think. But my point is the Labour Party may put serious women in serious positions, but it never puts them at the top of the party.

To your point, though, about women and what appeals, polls are also not always to be trusted. But we looked at that YouGov poll, which showed Labour doing particularly well at the beginning of the week in terms of the lead, a 17 point lead against the Conservatives. And in that, 50% of women polled said they would vote for Labour if an election was held now compared to 25% of women who would vote for Conservatives. For the men polled, the gap between the two parties isn't as pronounced. What do you make of that? That's exactly how, I can't remember the exact figures, but pre-97, we had the same story. Really?

Yeah, and I think, I honestly think it goes back to that, to my point about the fact that I think women, they want honesty, actually. They want to be be able to they don't want flashiness they actually want they want to feel there is a plan that's going to move things forward they want security they want they want sort of mainstream politics they don't want they don't want to be jabbered at all the time they don't want endless stuff they they want somebody who seems to be promising, you know, partnering with business rather than coming out with a slogan or representing the majority of the country. Not everybody. I'm not the people who are thrilled about the top rate tax cuts or whatever. Not that lot. But actually representing the mainstream centre of the country, the majority of people, I think, is where Labour was in a different way pre-97.

And I think it's where it is currently. And I think women particularly yearn for being able to plan that. They're juggling goodness knows what. They're thinking about their kids. They're thinking about their elderly parents. They want to know where things are going to be in six months, a year, two years time. And they also want their kids to have a better future. So I think the Tories are foolish to be dismissive of that. And I think they're foolish also to be dismissive of issues around the environment, because I think women may describe things in a different way. They may focus on the clean air outside their children's primary schools.

That is still about the environment. And I think that's a very important theme that I think will, and I hope will be developed further in the next couple of years by Labour, because I think it's, I think it's quietly very significant. Of course, if women are mothers, they'll talk about the children and the air outside their primary school. But I mean, it's always striking to me when it's striking to me, as someone who does a lot of political interviews and coverage that whenever we talk A lot of women in Britain have got children and or elderly parents. And in a sense, if you start to think about that group, then you will make a significant difference to a lot of people.

And it's got young women thinking for the future as well, you know. Well, they're worried about their mortgages perhaps as well at the moment. And it's just interesting to me because, of course, with your role and the strategy and the advice and the way you look at the population and how you appeal to the broadest group possible,

how women are looked at. Just one more thought from you, if I may, about an individual woman, Rupa Huck, Labour MP, describing the Chancellor, Kwasi Kwarteng, as superficially black.

Keir Starmer's just been on the Today programme with my colleagues this morning saying that that was a racist comment. She has apologised, but was suspended from the party yesterday. There will be now an investigation. In fact, we've tried to invite her

onto the programme this morning. But from taking a step back from that, that happened on the same day as his conference speech. I know for people who don't care for conferences, fine. But how much are those smaller episodes, those incidents, when he's talking about the Labour Party and how it's changed,

how destabilising or important can they be? The measure of the leader is whether you take action quickly, and he did that. So these things happen in all parties. If they drag on, you know, if you've got Chris Pinch still sitting in your parliamentary party, then that, that, that demonstrates to me that the Conservatives haven't gripped something. Keir took instant action, and therefore, and has been very, very clear about his position on it. And do you see the party united post the Corbyn years? I think it's very, very, very dramatically more united. Look,

there are always going to be people at the edges who are pushing in different directions, any political parties like that. But I think there is a real consensus. I also think, by the way, there is a real yearning to win. And in truth, I don't think that was there. I don't think that was there a few years ago. And I think now people are passionate about the fact that there's actually no point being in the Labour Party unless you try and change the country and try and put your policies into action. There's no point talking about it. So I think that's a real sea change, actually. The Labour peer, Baroness Sally Morgan, giving her take as someone who has worked in strategy in the party and how you appeal to the widest group of people. Joining me live from the

Labour Party conference, Anoush Shikhalin, British Britain editor of the New Statesman. Good morning, Anoush. Morning. Getting lots of messages in about whether these polls are to be believed and particularly whether women are finding Sakhir Starmer more appealing or it's that they're not finding this government appealing, which are the actual reasons for perhaps a move towards Labour, if it was a move. What's the atmosphere been like? The atmosphere has been quite upbeat at this conference. I calculated rather depressingly that this is my 10th Labour Party conference that I'm covering. And it does feel really different from the years before, mainly

because it's quite disciplined. It's been quite smooth. Obviously, they had that bump in the road with Rupert Huck's comments that you mentioned in your earlier interview. But in general, when you're speaking to Labour MPs, people in the shadow cabinet, Labour advisors, they tell you, you know what, the mood is good. And then they say, and I mean it this time. And you can actually see it in their eyes that they mean it. So there is that level of confidence. There were quite a few big parties last night sort of around the area where the conference is happening in Liverpool.

Lots of singing of things can only get better. So that 97 parallel is definitely being drawn by a lot of people in the party. How's your head this morning? Is that okay? Can you hear my croaky voice? I hope it's not coming through too much. No, you sound the consummate professional. I'm sure it's in the job description that you have to go to each and one of those parties to see what's going on.

That's what I tell my editors. But in terms of what's different, what's been said, I know there were some reports that speeches have had to be hastily rewritten in light of the mini budget from the government last week and the response there has been from some to that but is there anything different about Keir Starmer do you think right now or is it about people turning away perhaps or concerned about the announcements from Liz Truss? It's a really good question and I think actually there's not so much different about him he's still doing what he's been doing for since he became leader, really, which is trying to paint himself. He said in that interview on the Today programme earlier that he's a serious person. He's trying to paint himself as that steady, safe pair of hands.

And that was what he was still doing at conference today. But this time it seemed to land better, maybe because the government is in so much chaos, but also because he lent into it a bit, I thought. He sort of, you know, he started off with a joke about Arsenal and then he was sort of went misty-eyed about his old Ford Cortina, his family's old Ford Cortina, you know, the pebble-dash semi that he used to live in. You know, he's leaning into this sort of image of himself as, you know, everyone can relate, everyone knows a man like Keir Starmer, perhaps this sort of reassuring, unthreatening dad type. And he even, you know, lent into that in the interview where he said, you know, the most exciting thing about me is when I have my children. Some people may say that was boring. You know, being boring is an accusation that has been levelled at him recently by people in his own party. So he obviously has picked up on that and is trying to use it to make a virtue out of it, really.

Let me read you a few of the messages that are coming in. Sarah in Suffolk says good morning to you Sarah. I think some women vote for Labour because they feel the average family will be heard more than the Conservatives. Labour seem to bring more realistic elements to this and are more trustworthy. The UK says Claire in the Lake District desperately needs a change in leadership. We need a Labour government but how can I as a woman and a mother of both a six year old girl and an eleven year old boy ever vote for this party when Sakhir cannot even define a woman? Is a point that's being

raised on a few of the messages that's come in. Another one here, I cannot imagine how anyone who needs to pay bills and feed a family could vote Conservative now or any time really. That's from Lindy. And another one I'm an affluent swing voter without any particular allegiance. Keir Starmer's

interview on the Today programme this morning ended with a comment that meant more to me than anything. In response to the question of whether he was exciting enough, he said, we needed a serious grown-up in government and after years of anti-experts, tone-deaf policies, jokes and illegal parties and the buffoonery of last

week, I can't help but agree with him. So I'm giving you a flavour there, Anoush, of what some of the women getting in touch this morning are saying. And we're seeing women are tending, certainly with the way the polls are at the moment, to say they would go towards Labour. Yes, and I'm not sure if that's necessarily all Keir Starmer's achievement. You know, this is a pattern.

The gender gap at the last general election was the largest in 50 years in terms of labour, enthusiasm for labour among women, and Conservative and Labour support has become more and more divided by gender since the 2015 election. So it is part of a trend. You know, there could be all sorts of different reasons for that. We know that austerity policies have particularly impacted women negatively. And I'm sure you've spoken about that a lot on your programme before, so I won't go through all of those examples. But the Tory government now seems still to be at it.

You know, they're going to introduce stricter benefit rules for low-paid part-time workers, many of whom are women. Whereas some of Labour's policies, and I don't want to stereotype what all women want to see from their politicians, do seem to appeal more to that modern family ideal. You know, this kind of flexible energy company, that's a green policy that particularly appeals to female voters, as well as stuff on housing. So he announced 70% home ownership. Apparently, that also is particularly popular among women. And that's from people that I've been speaking to, who have been behind formulating some of the policies at this conference. So it's not exactly accidental. And the Red Wall, if we could come to that, because that's the big area to convert

women and men living in those areas. Any insight on on impact there that Keir and the team, Sir Keir Starmer, have had with that? Well, Labour are ahead in the Red Wall, if you look at the polls. But, you know, I am a little bit sceptical about some of these polls. And actually, there have been a few polls that have come out that suggest that Liz Truss is seen as someone who is a better prime minister than Keir Starmer among voters in some of those seats. And I have been around reporting in some of these places that went Tory in the 2019 election. And there is, you know, there is a lot of reticence about voting Labour again. In general, people don't really know what to think about Keir Starmer.

I think it's not necessarily a negative attitude, but it's more a sort of who is he? What does he stand for? And actually, when you look, when you dig deep into the numbers, there are about a third of people who still don't know what he's about. So I think there's a lot of people who have yet to make up their mind. And of course, the memories of Brexit and Labour's former Brexit policy are still fresh in some of those constituencies. Although that's been treated as a matter that's closed. And for some, they say that perhaps is an error by him. Well, yes, I mean, he did try and address it in his speech. And it's probably the most explicit he's been about trying to reach out to leave voters. And, you know, his sort of take on it is make Brexit work rather than get Brexit done.

So we'll see whether that cuts through to voters. Obviously, Brexit is less of a priority issue in these seats now. And you've got this problem now that Liz Truss and Kasi Kwarteng seem to be abandoning that levelling up agenda in favour of sort of levelling up the city of London. So it sort of trickles down to everywhere else in the country. And so people in those red wall seats that wanted a bit more investment and infrastructure might feel betrayed come the next election. It's a long time to go until then. We'll let you get back to wherever you need to go to from the Labour Party conference in Liverpool. They're the Britain editor of the New Statesman, Anoush Chakalian.

Thank you to you. A few more messages to give you the temperature, certainly of those who are choosing to message in this morning. I've always been a Labour supporter, but would not vote for Labour due to their stance on women-only spaces and their attitude to the group Labour Women at this conference, says Sarah. Another one, having been a Lib Dem all my life, I shall vote for Keir Starmer purely

because he's the only one I see with a proper green agenda. Another one, I'm turning away from Liz Truss. I've never been a Labour voter, but I can't get behind anything this awful government does, says Hannah. Does that mean you will go towards Labour? Because, of course, some men wouldn't do that at all, may go elsewhere.

It's interesting to hear what's actually driving this. Another one from Bologna who says, definitely going towards Labour. They've now given me some hope. The policies are sound and, frankly, I want calm, sensible, public, serving, problem-solving Prime Minister in post. As many say, a grown-up in the room, it's his green policies that also give me hope. He just makes sense. And Louise, another to this point, I'm a former Labour member who will not be voting for the party until they stand up for women and girls' safety and rights. So some of the themes coming up from you this morning.

Keep your messages coming in to let us know where you are with this and who you're trusting. And if it's a case of who you're actually going towards or perhaps who you're coming away from, 84844. That's the number to text after. Some of the data shows that women at the moment, 50% of women in this latest poll say they would vote for Labour if an election were held now, and Labour doing particularly well amongst women. We're trying to figure out what's driving that.

Now, how would you celebrate your 50th birthday? How did you? Maybe a huge party with your nearest and dearest, or perhaps you fulfilled a lifelong dream. Maybe you just ignored it. You let it happen, or that's the plan to come. The actor and businesswoman Gwyneth Paltrow decided to pose naked, mostly covered in gold body powder,

and then posted her photos on social media, saying she had learned to accept the marks, the loosening skin, the wrinkles that come with turning 50 and her decision was more about the female gaze and just a sense of fun. What is it then about the female naked body in public that can hold such power and who holds that power is a whole other debate but embracing that power we want to talk now to the economist and author, Dr. Victoria Bateman, who you may remember protested against Brexit naked back in early 2019 on television. She also attended academic meetings, nude at Cambridge University, where she's a lecturer. And the year before those protests in 2018, she walked naked into the drinks reception at the Royal Economic Society conference to protest economists not taking into account women and their bodies.

Victoria, good morning. Good morning. This is radio. I've got to ask, you're clothed today. We're just checking. Most definitely. Though, you know, I'm always happy to do one clothed. OK, well, you know, we'll get to that and your particular choice. But what do you think, having made the choice to appear in public naked,

whether it's at conferences with colleagues or on television, when you see something like a naked picture of a celebrity like Gwyneth Paltrow doing this to mark their 50th? It's striking. It's bold. And with that gold body paint all over her body, she appears to us as a golden goddess. You know, it's time for us to do away with this idea that as women, we have to choose between our bodies and our brains. And hey, if we want to be sexy and smart at the same time, why not? And you've got a bit of experience with posing as well for an artist, is that right? I have, that's right. So in 2014, a portrait, a naked portrait of me by the artist Anthony

Connolly went on display at the Mal Galleries. It did cause a little bit of controversy. What I was really trying to show is that behind every female body is a real thinking being. And again, we should try and challenge this idea that women have to choose between their bodies and their brains. And what did you feel like taking your clothes off to be portrayed? Well, in my 20s, I think like many young women, I had various hang-ups about my body. And in a way, the more I collected my badges of academic achievement, the more I felt that my body was a liability, that my respect as an academic hung precariously on the degree to which I was able to cover up my body, for example. So at academic conferences, you know, you're careful in terms

of what you wear, making sure your skirt isn't too short, that your buttons are properly done up. And, you know, this is really quite constraining. This is quite restrictive on life. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought that this isn't really logical. Why do we have to feel as women that our respect depends on our bodily modesty? Don't we all deserve respect? Why do we have to feel as women that our respect depends on our bodily modesty? Don't we all deserve respect? Why do we think of a scantily clad woman as being less respectable than another woman? And why do we label women promiscuous and again view what we call promiscuous women as degrading themselves? But that's the idea. These are the questions and they sound very obvious that they shouldn't be the answers that's that's the idea these are the questions and they they sound

very obvious that they shouldn't be the answers that we know are the way but the reality i suppose of you then going to do this and then i mentioned this protest i remember uh seeing you being interviewed by colleagues and also uh with your protest on on television do you think you were taken more seriously having been in you know in buff, making your political points? Well, I mean, the way I like to look at it is perhaps it's revealed more about some of the puritanical people commenting than I've revealed of my own body. I think, sadly, a puritanical revival is underway today. The pendulum of female modesty swings, but within conservative religious circles, we see purity culture taking a hold. You know, that's fed through to the anti-abortion movement in the US today. So the purity revival is underway. And I think you can see that when

you remove your clothes in public, you see that very clearly, you see it very publicly. Were you scared in any way? I would have been in my 20s back when I felt that my respect hung on my bodily modesty. But no, not now. I mean, rather like Gwyneth Paltrow, I think we should be free to be confident and unashamed about our bodies. I think, sadly, society sees women's bodies and women's confidence, women's bodily confidence as a threat. You know, it's much easier for society if we're unconfident, if we're ashamed. But we don't see at the same time, lots of male celebrities, if we just go off celebrities for a moment, they publish and get the most attention. Although you

did get a lot of attention at the time, I do remember. We don't see men needing to strip off, do we? So I think, you know, if you look at, for example, the world of the Greek gods, we have as women this choice between Aphrodite and Athena. So we can be an Aphrodite, we can be a sexy love goddess, or we can be an Athena, a goddess of wisdom. But what was Athena? She was a virgin. She didn't experience romantic love. Whereas if you look at the world of the gods, as opposed to the goddesses, gods, male gods were full of wisdom. They were promiscuous. And that promiscuity didn't detract from what people thought about their powers, their wisdom and so on. So I think it is quite particular to women that we're expected

to choose. And that imposes constraints. It hurts women's freedom across the world. Virginity testing, female genital mutilation that occurs in an effort to secure women's purity before marriage. Compulsory hijab. We see now in the last few days, we see people rioting in Iran for women simply to be free to uncover their hair. We see girls across the world whose parents are reluctant to let them go to university because

they're worried about mixing with men. We see fathers... And how, if I may, you know, many of those stories we've covered and we obviously continue to cover here on the programme. But how does an individual, and we're getting some messages from people who've taken their clothes off because they want to feel something or mark something, how do you think you doing that changes those things? So I think firstly it's about revealing this puritanical revival that's underway.

And secondly about showing that women are not just bodies, that within every female body is a brain. To think twice. Next time you see a woman's body, think twice. Don't make assumptions. Don't assume that she is stupid, that she is an idiot. And when you walked into a drinks reception at the Royal Economic Society conference, how was that? You were naked for that? Did you stay long? Did you have a few canapes? How did that work? I was naked apart from my long black gloves,

my handbag and my smile, of course. A glass of champagne in my hand. I mean, that's quite an extraordinary thing to do. What was the response like? It's interesting because some people are quite happy to engage with you and to talk to you as they would do normally and I think other people are a little bit sheepish and perhaps see you as a threat and it's interesting because I'm a tiny woman, I'm less

than five foot tall, I don't think I'm ever seen as a threatening woman. And yet somehow when you remove your clothes, certain people seem to view it as a threat, seem to almost be afraid. I'm not sure what they think I'm about to do. I'm just standing there normally being the elephant in the room, holding my glass of champagne, having normal conversation about the economics of the day. Do you think you've been taken more or less seriously as an economist since doing the work that you've done naked? Well, I think, I mean, I'd like to say that we're living in a world in which women can be liberal about their bodies and still be taken seriously. I'm not sure we have yet achieved that world, but I'm going to keep on fighting by removing my clothes, making my point until that utopia has been achieved. And are you naked more now in your life, since you started doing this publicly? I am certainly more comfortable with my body than I ever have been.

And, you know, it is quite, it's quite liberating mentally. You know, when I think back to my teenage years and to my 1920s, so sorry, to my 1920s, the anxiety that I felt about my body, I spent far too much time worrying and stressing about my body and feel much more liberated in my older age. You're not at 50 yet. Now you've done what you've done already. I mean, what's left for you to do if you were to mark 50, if we're thinking about that today?

Well, I'm not sure I could get my hands on some golden body paint. Well, I know we're talking about nakedness, but of course you are an economist by trade, as we're talking about. The news is dominated this morning by the response of the imf the international monetary fund to the government's tax cutting mini budget last friday you'll be very familiar with the arguments for and against the approach the government has taken but i just wondered rather than a comment on the government per se we've just had quite a lot of that in labor and we'll keep getting that from our listeners is it an interesting moment for those in your profession

to see how this plays out? Because it is a stark difference with how we've seen the economy be handled for a long time in this country. I have never seen so many of my economic colleagues speaking out so negatively about a British government. It is illiterate. It is reckless. Are you intrigued, though?

Because I accept, you know, there's going to be the points, and I'm not shutting that down. We've heard many of them across the airwaves. What do you think about seeing this actually happen? I'm seriously, seriously worried. And I think now that this package of quite serious tax cuts has been passed through the question now is what's going to happen to public services because either those tax cuts have to be reversed or government spending will be on the line you know we're all worried about

the NHS 12% of us are waiting for treatment on the NHS. And, you know, something has to give here. And some economists, they think this will work, though. This is a theory. No, no, but my point to you is rather than, I can't go into the whole debate of that now, we just simply don't have the time. But is there any part of you,

because you will have seen in other arguments where you haven't thought something's going to work and then maybe it does, is there any part of you that's reserving judgment? No, no, certainly not. And that's certainly not what I'm seeing from my colleagues who are really quite outspoken. I mean, in some ways, it's quite shocking to see how many esteemed economists are speaking out against the government right now. And the IMF, I mean, the IMF making the statement that it has, I mean, it puts us with basket case economies. You know, we are supposed to be a high income,

developed economy. The fact that the IMF is issuing this kind of statement is deeply worrying, I think. Well, as you say, many economists making their voices heard at the moment, it would have been remiss not to ask for your take as well. They seem to have their clothes on though, the ones that are going on television at the moment, as do you this morning. But we're grateful for you talking to us about that experience that you have and have continued to have. Dr. Victoria Bateman, thank you. Messages here. I'm an art student in my 60s. I recently finished a self-portrait painting of me naked in the tube carriage amongst passengers that are completely ignoring me.

It's a comment on being invisible as an older woman amongst other things. Happy to share if you're interested. Oh, yes, Mary, I'd love to see that. Dear women, I'm a professional life model with 23 years experience. It's a job I do because I love doing it. And you see wonderful artists' impressions of you and they're so different. They all see you in a different light. It's an awesome job I do because I love doing it and you see wonderful artists impressions of you and they're so different They all see you in a different light is an awesome job to do. I did a nude calendar I'm very proud of it. It was for a body

Dysmorphic charity and I combined my love of sewing in it and yes, I will do it again Another one I posed naked for my third pregnancy I was 41 and the chances are it was my last pregnancy. My wonderful, talented friend and photographer from Birmingham, Tiana Williams, took the photos. And I'm honoured to have these stunning pictures to mark this point in my life, just for myself and my family to see really, says Ellie in Devon.

And so it continues. Do keep your messages coming in. There's just one here from Lou, who says, I'm sick of the talk of 50-year-olds and their saggy bits. They're in the prime of life. Get on with more important things in your life, I say, and stop being so obsessed with your looks, says Lou, who's a 74-year-old listening. Good morning to you, Lou. Now, a group of grandmothers, mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters from Leicester have called for an end to the clashes involving mainly young men from

sections of the Muslim and Hindu communities. The tensions in the city, which started last month following an India and Pakistan cricket match and the spread of misinformation on social media, resulted in large-scale disorder on the 17th of September on the east side of the city. This has led to nearly 50 arrests, 158 crimes being recorded and nine people being charged. The arrests have included people from outside of the city. The group of South Asian women of Muslim, Hindu and Sikh faiths in Leicester issued a joint statement at the weekend saying, As your grandmothers, mothers, sisters, aunts, daughters and friends, we've come together in collective solidarity to say no to the senseless violence

that has plagued our great city in recent weeks and left many people injured. As a result, whole neighbourhoods and entire families, particularly women, children and elders, are now living in fear. We therefore ask the women of Leicester to join us in taking action and bringing our communities together once again. As strong, proud Asian women, we know that when Leicester is united, it can never be defeated. Leicester united as one.

Well, joining me on the line now, local Labour councillor for Rushymead Ward in Leicester, Rita Patel, who's Hindu, and Yasmin Serti, a Muslim mother of three and secretary of the Federation of Muslim Organisations in Leicester. Good morning to both of you. Rita, I'll come to you first. The clashes have actually been going on since August. How has the local community been impacted? I think, as we said on Saturday, a lot of people are scared, particularly elderly people, families, children. And women always end up dealing with the aftermath of situations like this. And that's why we felt very strongly that we needed to make a statement and make our voices heard.

When you say the aftermath, what's that been like? Well, I think people are fearful. We're being told things are de-escalating. And, you know, during the last few days, there hasn't been any incidents. But actually, the leadup to the main incidents that occurred about 10 days ago that's what we were being told then by the police that things were

de-escalating police officers hadn't had time off for about three weeks so on that day you know officers had been allowed leave that they hadn't had and And suddenly everything broke loose. So I think it's a question of waiting and seeing how long this lasts. Yasmin, good morning to you. Morning. Thanks for being with us. How are things today? You've released this statement, you're trying to make women's voices heard. So I think as Rita says, you know, there appears to be some calm. We are kind of slightly on tenterhooks because, you know, we, again, as Rita said, you know, there was to kind of work together between communities with authorities, but importantly as women, you know, and, you know, we felt there were many women that are doing simple, ordinary things like, you know, a Hindu, a transcend all this stuff that we're seeing, but are really important and not being recognised. And very often, you know, women bring a calm, rational voice when there's chaos around us. And we had heard that, you know, women have been frightened about what had been going on.

Had you seen that where you are? so i haven't personally seen it but i have heard you know women talking about um you know being fearful about leaving their homes and you know it's it's really sad it's it's heartbreaking um that you know well these things happen but women in particular affected uh you know by how they feel and certainly you know at this time the year, there's lots of celebrations going on. Our Hindu community are currently in the middle of Navratri, leading up to the festival of Diwali. People shouldn't feel frightened to go out and celebrate. And that's not Leicester, that's not who we are.

We were really determined to make that statement, to make that clear. Rita, we're not going to get into the legal side of things, but I presume you will know people who are now having to prepare for court, who are in a system because of what's going on and what has gone on. I think parents and children, I think, or the young people caught up in it, are frightened, largely because, you know, a lot of them have never been involved in this kind of activity with the law before. And that just goes to show how vulnerable youngsters

get led into this kind of action. And I think that we need to be very vigilant. This is happening not because the whole of the Muslim community is against the whole of the Hindu community, but there is a minority of a minority within our communities, you know, who have engaged in this kind of behavior and this kind of activity. And it's impacting on everybody. And I think parents have lost us to how to deal with this at times as much as you know the young people who are vulnerable. Yasmin are you are you seeing that it's women who are the

ones trying to reconcile here or or play how is how is that working in terms of trying to get back to a good position? No absolutely so I think you, it's been across the board. You know, we've seen lots of men come together. We've seen men and women come together. So I think, you know, everybody is trying desperately to get back to some of the intricacies of it, you know, and the outside influences, I think, have been largely detrimental to our city. But, you know, there have been groups of men, groups of men and women. But again, you know, we felt we needed to make a visible statement about women. And since making that statement, what's been the response i think it's been largely largely positive uh both within leicester but also on social media we've you know lots of people kind of um girl power kind of thing you know but but you know it has been really positive and we've we've we've been quite taken aback by the by the response in

that sense um you know and and for, this is not just about that statement. You know, we recognise there's work to do going forward to understand how we bring people together collectively and how we start to build, rebuild, you know, some of the devastation that's happened in the city, recognising some of the challenges that are too complex for us at the moment. You know, I talked about outside influences, etc. You know, working through those, but actually working on how we start

to rebuild our relationships where they have been damaged. Rita, Yasmin, thank you very much to you, Yasmin Soti there. But just finally to you, Yasmin talks about it being a tentative moment. You know, what do you see as the way way forward in the the days and weeks to to try and have some of those reconciliations yeah women have always in leicester been part of the solution young women particularly have to have a voice i think and find a voice in in this narrative that's going on the main focus is on young men, but actually young women have a lot to say and a lot to contribute to. Women in Leicester have organised

since the days of fighting for the vote and equality. Asian women, black women, white women have had women's organisations that have been established in the city for a very long time. And I think this is the time that women need to come together. What I have seen is that people want to be solution focused. They don't want to keep rehashing what the problem is. They want to actually work together in order to move forward. And I think we have a long legacy of people in this city

uniting and solving, problem-solving together. That's what's needed, and certainly that's what we're heading towards. Rita Patel, Yasmin Serti, thank you to you for giving us a take on the ground from the women's perspective, some of the women's perspective in Leicester. Now, my next guest was the youngest woman to become a mayor in Afghanistan before having to flee the country last year after threats on her life by the Taliban once again back in charge. Zarifa Ghaffari sadly knows firsthand the brutality of the regime as only weeks after another assassination attempt on her life failed in 2020, the Taliban killed her father, shooting him three times in the head in front of their home.

Her story forms the basis of a new Netflix documentary and book called Zafira. She joins me now from Germany, where she, her mother, fiancé and six siblings, I'm happy to say, live in safety. Good morning. Very good morning. Thank you so much for having me. Well, thank you for being with us. And I just thought a word on that, because you are talking to us from Germany. How has it been over the last year or so being away from the country you so, I'm sure, miss? Definitely. It's so hard to live away from the one so important part of your life and yourself.

It has been so tough. It has been so hard for me, but I'm happy that I'm able to explore the world and share the message and represent my people, in particular women. So that's the good opportunity, despite the hardship. Let's talk about how you left Afghanistan, because you've spoken about the fact that you left it quite late to leave because you wanted to stay. Can you tell us about what it was like having to escape and the journey to get to the airport to leave? Definitely it was so hard.

From the scenes where Taliban were taking the flags out of the buildings and top of the mountains, from that scene to seeing them walking in cities, to seeing women and people, an evil one, and investigating, running all around. And, you know, the horror, everything was so, so really hard, and it was really tough. For me, more importantly, traveling to airport with my family, on that specific time, it was just, you know, taking care of my family, so it was like just doing know taking care of my family so it was like uh just doing my

personal responsibility toward my family uh forgetting all anything around me the rest so uh yeah it was just uh until i got into the airport and then i realized that yeah finally i am leaving this country you know and there was no choice, especially for people like yourself, women like yourself, who had been holding political positions. I had, I had, like, I was, like, feeling so bad because it was like me leaving my country and letting my old people back, you know. It was kind of abandoning my people.

But I knew I'm doing my personal responsibility toward my family. And then when it's done, I can return back to my mission and I can return back to my work. So that was something good. But knowing that I'm leaving and then letting all these people out back it was really not okay uh because I was able to stay because like it was yeah risking life I I think

was nothing new and is nothing new for me well no I mean we should you know, I mentioned it in my introduction to you, but you yourself have survived several assassination attempts. So it's like, you know, staying there was like not being afraid of something, but I really wanted, I wished there was no particular

responsibility of me toward my family, so I was able to stay there. That's why as soon as I felt my family is safe, I returned back. And I am still doing my work all around to support the voices in Afghanistan. And Zarifa, you have suffered great loss as a family at the hands of the Taliban, which I think, you know, it's important to pay tribute to, but also as a way of explaining how you can understand the people who are now in charge of the country. Definitely. It's really hard. It's really tough you know definitely when it when i know they were the ones who were trying to kill me and they were the ones who were like involved in killing my dad so it's it's really hard to uh see what's like you're not seeing them now in power and in charge of that country where

like i i was like breathing entire my i wanted to breathe entire my life, you know, and it's so important and special for me. So, but there is no other choice, you know. It's like, what, you know. I really hate this game of revenge. I lost my dad. I don't want another person to lose their dad. You know, I know how hard it is to suffer this all pain. So I am not in that position. Whatever the losses is, I'm taking it so personal. I had this personal losses and I'm not only one person in Afghanistan to be through that pen. There are millions of people, they have been through the same pen. My mom was three years old when she lost her dad.

So for me, it was like a pen, but personal. And I'm not, whenever I'm deciding about my country, my work and my people, I am putting these all personal pens so aside and then thinking or deciding. I mean, we should say also before the Taliban took back control last summer, when you were mayor, the youngest female mayor in the country, you also struggled to be able to hold your office without protests. There was still a backlash, wasn't there, against somebody like yourself, a woman, being in position? that the past four or five decades in Afghanistan, it was all these men in charge and women are suffering because of them

and their decision, male-dominated society, male decision, male leadership. So yeah, definitely it's always something so hard to prove yourself as a woman in that country, in that community. But still, I'm so happy that there are, you know, there were possibilities for women like me to stand their grounds. And I really, I can say this, that it was definitely the biggest part of it. It was ourselves, ourselves our fight our beliefs

our struggle our courage and our you know determination of not giving up or not giving up so that was the thing but yeah uh that's the society you know the society where things that women are the subjects woman from home to the grave or at least to the kitchen or the bedroom. So in that kind of society, it's rare to see a woman female male. But I'm happy. I really

am so blessed by having that all great experiences in my life. And so young age especially. And the hope that many Afghanistan, people from Afghanistan around the world, women and men have of going back is very strong. I know that you have been back once,

but to be able to go back and live and try to be there full time and resume some sort of life, have you got any idea of when that might be? I never left my country for forever so i'm not like ever thinking about like when to go how to go i'll go whenever it's my home so whenever i want and i don't really care about what the consequences will be back because yeah definitely i'm not gonna if i the thing is that if i'm not going and serving that country if i'm not helping the pupil who else is ready to do that is there

any other foreign foreign uh polls to do it again to my pupil no so it's me so it needs to be it need us to stand there and do it ourselves and the second thing is so important and that one is that uh you know we we we need to if we are saying that taliban are not representing afghanistan they are not the owner of that country so we need to stay there and represent ourselves and our country and then like take that lead you know i know it's so hard i know it's uh uh sometimes dangerous as well but nothing is so easy in life and nothing is impossible to all the changes like look at nelson mandela he is a great human being and leader and like part of great history. And it's because of all the, you know, work he did. But despite all the hardship.

So, well, it's a pleasure to be able to talk to you. Thank you for your time. The book is called Zarifa. The documentary is called In Her Hands. It's out on netflix on the 11th of november and more people can come to your story and some of the other women that you feature in that thank you for your time today and your company many messages also coming in i have to say about our conversation about the power of posing nude and tanya says the notion that

presenting your nude body is a way of telling your audience that you have a brain should also apply to men in that case the logic fails if women and men to be placed on an even footing in society, then men should wander around unclothed, work in factories unclothed, give presentations unclothed. That would be a quality for you. Thank you very much to all of you for your messages today and as ever for your company, whether you are naked or not listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us were naked or not listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Hello, I'm John Wilson, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast series, This Cultural Life. In each episode, I ask leading artistic figures to reveal the most important people, events, and cultural works that have had a profound impact on their own creativity. It was just so different. It was so away from everyone. It just blew my mind. I didn't know about this. I just was confronted by it.

And to me, this was art, you know. I felt art. We didn't know we were going to be there for years. But I mean, I honestly would have shot that thing for five years. I didn't care. People like Nicole Kidman, Goldie, Armando Iannucci, Jarvis Cocker, Hannah Gadsby, Tracey Emin, Paul McCartney and James Corden. It means a great deal to me, that show. You realise how extraordinarily uplifting it can be to share an experience with 1,500 people. The people whose work we love talking about the work that they love.

Search for This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds. I'm very emotional now, thank you, John. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.