Woman's Hour - Women and Negotiations

Episode Date: January 1, 2024

A special Woman's Hour episode all about women and negotiation. Nicky Perfect is the former Deputy Head of the elite New Scotland Yard Hostage and Crisis Negotiation Unit. She has travelled the world teaching negotiation and working with the Government on international operations. She’ll be joining Hayley Hassall throughout the programme sharing her own experiences and advice, and taking us through how what she learnt can be used in our everyday lives.What has been the role of women in negotiations historically? Professor Margaret Macmillan specialises in British Imperial and International History from the 19th to the 20th Century. In those days, negotiations never involved women on paper – but that wasn’t always the case in reality. She joins Hayley to tell us more. Nomi Bar-Yaacov has been all over the world mediating and negotiating international conflicts. She’ll tell Hayley some of her experiences, as well as how these negotiations happen, and the different roles women play.How much of your daily life do you spend negotiating? Perhaps at work, or with your children – or even in-laws? Mum and a mic on Instagram, Jane Dowden, joins Hayley to chat through negotiations she has with her twins, and clinical psychologist Catherine Hallissey will talk about what goes on in our brains while we’re negotiating, and the best way to do so with family. At the end of last year, the largest negotiations including delegates from all over the world took place – COP28, the United Nation's climate summit. Rachel Kyte was there – and at several previous COPs as well, having served as special representative of the UN secretary-general and chief executive officer of Sustainable Development for All among other roles. She’ll tell Hayley all about how negotiations like COP work behind-the-scenes, including the strops and the drama that lead eventually to world-changing commitments. Presenter: Hayley Hassall Producer: Lottie Garton

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and Happy New Year and welcome to 2024. And what a way to start the new year with this very special Woman's Hour programme. Well, today we've decided to make it all about negotiation and women's roles in that. It will hopefully help and inform our new year because to negotiate is to choose the path of communication, not violence or war, and to reach an agreement and get what you want. That's from an article in Psychology Today. And this morning, we're going to be looking at all types of negotiation from your own kitchen to global agreements and women's roles within them. We're going to be hearing from two women who were actually seated around the table at some of last year's most world-changing negotiations.

Nomi Bar-Yokov, who negotiates all over the world, trying to mediate international conflicts, and Rachel Kite, who has been involved in negotiations to tackle climate change for years. And we'll take a look back at women's roles in negotiations of the past. Did you know, for example, that wives and mistresses were influential in negotiations to end one of Europe's biggest wars? Well, Professor Margaret Macmillan will tell us more about that. Plus, we'll look at negotiation in our own everyday lives. From negotiating with five-year-olds to negotiating

with friends. With Instagram mum legend Jane Dowden and have a look into our brains to see what goes on emotionally with psychologist Catherine Hallisey. Now this programme has been pre-recorded so we won't be able to read out any of your comments you send us during the programme but we always love to hear from you so if you want to add anything, perhaps your own experiences in negotiation or some tips you'd like to share or even your thoughts on some of the stories you've heard this morning, you can get in touch in the usual way.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website. And throughout the programme today, I'm delighted to say that I'll have a real expert alongside me. Nicky Perfect has spent most of her life negotiating, not just with friends and family like we all do, but in her career working with the New Scotland Yard Crisis Negotiation Unit. She's now retired, but is still working to help people learn how to communicate and negotiate through workshops. Nicky, welcome to this special episode

of Woman's Hour. It's so good to have you next to me because your career has had some surmountable moments. And for those listeners who haven't heard from you before, can you just take us through exactly what your job as a negotiator entails? Yeah, thank you so much, Hayley. It's so lovely to be here. I always feel when people introduce me as Nikki Perfect that I do have to explain perfect really is my surname. I'm sure you're perfect in other ways as well. So yeah, I was privileged and honoured. It was a real joy to be part of the hostage and crisis negotiation unit

at New Scotland Yard. I became a negotiator after I had 20 years service as a police officer in the Met in London. And I only became a negotiator because one of my mentors said to me, Hey, Nick, have you ever thought about becoming a negotiator? And that's why when I reflect on conversations and communication, how powerful it is, it's those conversations that are life changing conversations. So for me, communication is a superpower. And I'll talk about that as the show goes on about why I believe that to be true. So yeah, I've had an amazing career,

served all over London, ended up the last six years as the UK Director of Hostage and Crisis Negotiation. So responsible for all those people becoming a negotiator in the UK, and also had the privilege of working internationally on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, both training and with British citizens that had been caught up in incidents or kidnapped as well. So I've had a real varied life, but it's been an honour. You must definitely have some stories because I know you've written a book, Crisis, True Stories of My Life as a Hostage Negotiator, and in which you tell the story of some of the negotiations you were part of and some of them make really tough reading I must say but is there one in particular

that stands out in your memory? Yeah I think it's always the first one that stands out in most people's memory and that was because that changed my whole view on how we talk to people and how I spoke to people. I've got to be honest with you before I went on my negotiation course I thought I thought I was quite a good communicator. And I was like, yeah, this is okay. This course will be all right. It was a very intensive two week course where they kind of look at everything you say and do and why you say and do it. And I had one of those epiphany moments that people might be able to relate to whilst I was there. And I was like, wow, this has just changed my whole viewpoint. So I really want to be a negotiator now for the rest of my policing career, but probably for the rest of my life.

And I remember doing that first negotiation. You know when you get a set of new skills and you're like, I can't wait to use these. I can't wait to save the world. That was literally how I was thinking. Great, I'm a negotiator now. That's amazing. I can save the world, change everything.

And I remember I wasn't even on call. So most negotiators in the UK in police they do it on top of their day job so they're really dedicated to the role of being a negotiator so they do their day job then they put themselves on call and they sacrifice family time there'll be people you know who've just spent Christmas on call negotiating with people and there'll be people today that are probably waiting for a phone call they'll have their phone calls their phones next to them as we we go into the new year and so my first negotiation i wasn't on call i got a phone call from somebody who was uh who taught me how to be a negotiator so when i picked up my phone and saw his name on the phone i was

super excited i was like, this is amazing. I know what this is. And he said, Nick, I'm really sorry. You're not on call, but would you mind going to this negotiation? I said, no, of course not. No problem at all. What's happening? So he says to me, there's a young lad.

He's been released from prison for grievous bodily harm. He's gone around to see his ex-partner. His ex-partner and him have got a child. He's never seen the child. They've had an emotional discussion. She's alleging that she has been assaulted, but he's taken the child without her permission. There's been a car chase around London,

and now they're surrounded. So I was like, yeah, of course I can go to that. He said, can you just get the child out safely and then get him out safely? And I'm like, yes, definitely. So I'm waiting for a fast car, which is a car with blue lights and two tones to take me to the call and I've got this running through my head heroin negotiator arrives on scene which is me obviously with my newfound skills and she starts talking to him and he starts talking to her they listen to each other he

gets out the car shakes her by the hand hands to the child and everything is fine. The day is saved. The day is saved. Yes. Eight hours later. And he said two things to me. One, I'm not going to repeat on radio. And the other one was you don't understand. Wow. And that was really powerful for me because I reflected on that all of the time afterwards. And I was like, maybe I'm not going to be a very good negotiator. Maybe these new skills are not going to be for me. Maybe this is not the path. And I really questioned myself. And then later, as I did lots more research on psychology and human behavior and watched other negotiators, I was so lucky to be surrounded by amazing mentors in the negotiation world. I realized that whole conversation was about me and what I wanted and

what I believed was going to happen, that I was going to turn up. And I'd never stopped and gone, what does the world look like from his perspective? He doesn't see this heroin negotiator walking towards him. He sees a white, middle-aged, middle-class woman and probably thinks, well, what on earth have we got in common? And he'd have been right, because I wasn't thinking about what it would be like to have just come out of prison, to have not seen your child. And he probably saw me as somebody who was going to take his child away

and send him back to a place he didn't want to go to. So there's lots of emotions involved in there. There's fear on his part. There's sort of adrenaline on both sides. And that must have taught you a lot in that first instance. It was a learning curve, really. But how did it end and was the child okay? So the good news is the child was okay.

He ended up being tasered, which was not how I wanted it to end. Again, all about me and what I want. And yeah, sadly, you know, he ended up going back to prison. And yeah, it taught me a lot. That negotiation really taught me a lot about how looking at the world from somebody else's perspective is key in a negotiation so that you can collaborate and work together. And it taught you a lot and you went on to achieve so much more. So what do you think is the most valuable lesson you learned as a negotiator across the whole of your career? Across the whole of my career, I would say that I have always underestimated the power of listening and I didn't really know how to listen.

And that most of us listen from a perspective of, oh, I can't wait for my say in the conversation. I just like to give my point of view because we do have really strong points of views and opinions and there's nothing wrong with it. It's just recognizing that we don't always need to give our opinion and that sometimes people don't want to hear our opinion and actually when we listen from a different perspective from an active listening emotional intuitive I want to understand where you're coming from perspective that helps that other person to feel valued and validated and when people feel valued and validated and they have a place and a space in the world it enables you to build relationships really quickly even in the most challenging of circumstances and you're right to say it's not about you. But in a way, you've been through and seen some really traumatic things and situations. So in that sense, it does have an effect on you. How do you protect yourself and your mental health in those negotiating situations? I reflect on this all the time. Because I'm, even now I've been out of police negotiation for five years. There's still those times when you stop and something will happen.

So, for example, I find it really challenging to watch violence on TV. If there's a loud noise, I overreact. I know I do. So I'm fully aware of those things that I do. I have always been into fitness and health. I'm pretty sure that helped me a lot throughout my policing career in general when you see trauma after a trauma after trauma it it has an impact and anybody in the emergency services will be able to relate to that

and then and I think also there was a separation always a clear line for me that and I call it the darkness in the book that the darkness didn't step over the doorstep with me into my house. So at the time, I was living with my partner and my six-year-old stepdaughter, and I never wanted her especially to be affected by that in any way, shape or form. And also, you have a strong support network from other people that you work with, and they're the people that understand and can relate to what you're going through. Well, we're going to come on to those negotiations at family times as well later in the programme. So please stay with us, Nikki. It's lovely to have you on the show and you're going to be with us throughout the programme. So I'm sure we'll come back to your story, but also your advice and handy

tips a little bit later on. One listener who's called itinerantwonderer on Instagram has messaged to say a negotiation is not just a single conversation. You need to understand what's required, find evidence and then present it. So thank you so much for that. But before we hear from the first of our women involved in negotiations, which alter the course of the world, I want to have a little look back a bit further than that, because as we all know, historically, women have been barely in the background of some major events, which have mostly involved male leaders across the world. But does this translate to negotiations as well? Joining me now is historian Margaret Macmillan, Emeritus Professor of History at the University of Toronto, and an Emeritus Professor of

International History at Oxford University. Margaret, thank you so much for coming on the programme. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Good morning. I want to start, if I may, with the Congress of Vienna at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, because this was in the early 1800s. And what was the aim of these negotiations? Because there's some quite interesting stories in the background there, isn't there? Well, the aim was to settle a war that had gone on, which had killed people all over Europe, which had disrupted Europe for over 20 years. France had dominated much of the continent and eventually a coalition was formed against it and defeated Napoleon.

And what happened then, there was a Congress in Vienna of the powers that were in the coalition. They included Britain, of course, Russia, Prussia. And curiously enough, the Congress itself included France because Napoleon had been deposed. And so a new French government had been formed and it was there. And also Austria, the great empire in the middle of Europe. And what they were trying to do is, in a sense, put the pieces back together again, create a lasting system that would create peace, sort out what were a great many outstanding issues. They had to sort out borders. They had to decide who got which throne and so on. So it was quite an event. I mean, it lasted for well over a year. And did women have any role in that? Because that's definitely not common knowledge.

No, women have no official role because in those days they mostly didn't unless they inherited a throne or unless they somehow managed to get into a position of power. But they played a hugely important part. And I think they played a part in other negotiations before because they acted. I was listening with such interest to what Nikki was saying about communication. Yeah. And these women acted to communicate between the different statesmen. And they were often trusted. I mean, Metternich, the Austrian chancellor, who was probably the cleverest man there and really helped to pull the pieces together

and build a lasting peace, had a couple of women he trusted completely. He talked to them. He got their advice. He relied on them. And the women had great parties. I mean, you may think a party isn't important, but in fact, it was a way where people got together. And I think in any negotiation, but your experts will know better than me, in any negotiation, personal contact matters. You have to learn to trust other people. You have to learn at least to know what they're thinking. And women play a very important part in this.

And that's very clever. I think we call them networking events nowadays. But actually, a party is a great way sometimes to get allies on side, isn't it? And so there were obviously women working behind the scenes then. And then by the time we get to the end of the First World War, which is 100 years later, women very much take a back seat for the most part, or at least that's what we think. Is that the case? That is indeed the case. And it's curious, isn't it? Because we think, you know, the further back you go in history, the less influence women have. But what happened in the 19th century was that a lot of things got professionalized, people began to have to do exams to get into foreign offices, and women could not apply.

And so women were not there. There's a big conference, again, at the end of the First World War, which is in fact modeled on the Congress of Vienna 100 years before. And women were there, but only as typists, secretaries, sometimes drivers, they were there as support. And so there were almost no women who actually played any part at the peace conference itself. And you didn't have the same sort of parties and the same sort of networking that you got at the Congress of Vienna. And do you think that was detrimental? I think it was detrimental, because I think, I mean, who knows whether it's evolution or whether it's cultural, but I think women have a great capacity to notice. They have an empathy

often, I think more than men do in some cases. And I think they can be very good at understanding other characters and other people and trying to understand them and work with them. And so, yes, I think it was detrimental. It meant that they were depriving themselves of the talents of half the human race. I think another thing I want to get into is, is women involved in negotiations, not as the influencers, but as the thing being negotiated over? Because that's happening a lot, isn't it? Yes, and it's always happened. And in the past, women were often taken hostage, they were prizes. But what also happened is if two parties, say two states, which had been at war came together and decided to make peace, they often exchanged women as a sort of pledge that they would be friends. And so, you know, poor

little 15 year old princesses would be shipped off to marry someone they'd never met before and told they were there to do their best for their family and who'd sent them. And I suppose as a fight back, have there been occasions in history where women have made real problems for negotiators, like perhaps even ruined them or definitely got in the way? Oh, I think so. I mean, women have often acquired power.

I mean, just because they don't have formal power doesn't mean they can't have a great deal of power. And you get women. I mean, Catherine the Great of Russia was a poor little German princess. Again, she was very young, set off to marry this, I think, probably crazy Russian czar. I mean, he was dreadful. And somehow he got killed. And I think she had something to do with it.

And she then became the regent for her little son. And in fact, she became the empress of Russia for a very long time, through throughout the 18th century, and into the beginning of the 19th century. And she was very powerful, indeed. And she did this because she was ruthless, she picked her favorites, she picked her sides. And so she manoeuvred through a very dangerous and difficult world to become a very powerful person. And though, yes, women could often take positions of power and when they wanted, they could certainly disrupt negotiations. But bringing us back to modern times. So in the last few decades, there have obviously been some

incredibly influential women playing a big part in negotiations. Which ones stand out for you? What are the most important there? I think Madeleine Albright, US Secretary of State, who was very effective at dealing with other people. Angela Merkel, I think, someone who was respected by the people she had to deal with. She managed to win over most people, not always, but she famously managed to deal with Vladimir Putin, which not many people can do. Margaret Thatcher, I mean, you know, the picture of Margaret Thatcher is of her swinging her handbag and stamping her feet and being rude to people in the European Union. In fact, I think she was a very successful negotiator and she got more out of the European Union than many of her successes ever did. So is there anything then that connects these women across history?

Are there any character traits or anything you think they shared that made them so successful that we can perhaps learn from? Difficult to say because some of them were absolutely ruthless. Some of them were not. Some of them were willing to compromise. Again, I think I'd go back to what Nikki was saying, that perhaps what marked them out is they had the capacity to be observant, to notice the people they were dealing with. They understood people. They understood psychology. They had the capacity to play on

people and when necessary, get really tough with them. And you think of your own Queen Elizabeth I. She was someone who could maneuver. Well, she survived to begin with through a very, very difficult childhood. She could maneuver very carefully through the court. She managed to become queen. She picked very good advisors. She maneuvered through European politics. So I think, yes, I think you have a great many examples of women who I think did so partly because they were prepared to observe and prepared to figure out who it was they were dealing with.

Professor Margaret Macmillan, thank you so much for coming on the show. You've given us so much to think about. Now it's time to meet the first of our guests this morning, who has been part of negotiations that have changed the course of the world, this time in terms of international conflict. Nomi Bar-Yokov is an associate fellow for the Chatham House International Security Programme. She served as a legal advisor for the UN in countries around the world. Well, I spoke to Nomi a little earlier and she told me about what her role entails.

So I convene back-channel negotiations. Back-channel negotiations are very important, and a very important part of conflict resolution. I mean, reaching ceasefires, reaching agreements on any disputes between states or between states and non-state actors. There's a certain level of mediation and negotiation that governments can do that in our vocabularies track one negotiations, but many states don't have diplomatic relations with the either entities

or not meaning armed non-state actors or other states. So they need people like me to try to work out how to end conflicts or prevent conflicts or anything to try to help to get to peace, basically. So your role is incredibly pivotal and that back channel way of working you talk about, what exactly happens? So when you walk in the room or when you speak to somebody, what happens? What is it you're capable of doing? So first of all, I'm not the only person who convenes back channel negotiations. So it's not just about me. There are plenty of wonderful women and men who convene or participate in back channel negotiations.

I also participate. I don't always, I'm not always the organizer. And it's a large, it's been proven to be extremely effective in reaching agreements on a huge variety of issues. For example, the Israeli-Palestinian Oslo Accords, the 1993 recognition of Israel by the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, and Israel of the PLO, which until that moment in September 1993 was considered a terrorist organization. The entire negotiation leading up to that pivotal moment was done in back channel negotiations in Oslo. That's why they're known as the Oslo Accords.

So it was basically Norwegians who convened, invited the Israelis and the Palestinians. So that's a public example that I did not participate in. I wasn't not of that generation, but very, very... A massive movement in time, which is down to that group of people. Can you give us an example of a negotiation that you've been involved in? I do a lot of work in the Middle East. I do a lot of back channel work with various countries, including Palestine and Israel, including Iran, not at the moment, though, but for many, many years, including other states in the region. But I don't only do exclusively

Middle East. I think that the skills necessary for international mediation are transformable to any conflict. But of course, knowing the history of a conflict, knowing the languages, knowing the culture is extremely important. So Middle East is my main area of expertise. Talk me through those skills, because I know you speak six languages, and you have to be aware of many, many cultural differences. What skills do you use to help create that negotiation? I think culture is very important, understanding the culture and the narrative, the fact that conflicts are, there won't be a conflict if the narrative was the same for both parties

or for all parties. So everyone has their truth and they believe that that is the only way to look at a conflict is through their lens. So putting them in the shoes or in the boots of the other and trying to expose them, open them up to showing that there actually is a flip side to the coin and what was viewed as a certain event in history in time, which is very significant for you, was actually an absolute disaster for the other side. So I think one needs patience, empathy.

Studying the conflict is very important. I mean, preparation is, I would rate that maybe the highest skill. It's just being able to learn and to get to put in the time before a negotiation or mediation starts, doing all the background work, hearing and listening, which I always say are two different skills. I've heard that before, but how so in your point of view? Well, you hear what a party says and then you tune in and you listen

and then you go back and you hear and you sort of, there's so much preconditioning. We say, oh, we've heard that before. Oh, it's that mantra. But actually trying to actually deconstruct and give it the space, because clearly for a party that uses a certain mantra, it has a different meaning to the party that is listening or hearing on the other side. It's so interesting to talk to you because I suppose we're talking about business and professionalism, but from such a, you talk about empathy, patience, listening, there must be a lot of emotion involved in what you do. Is that difficult to divide the two between creating something and receiving a result, you know, to take that away from the emotion involved in that process. Well, I think the emotion is important, actually. I don't think you want to take the emotion away.

I think there's a lot of emotion, an awful lot of emotion. I have goosebumps just speaking to you now. And it's because one has to really tune in. So you're sort of brought up, for example, in a certain place being told, oh, this party or this country is absolute evil. And then you listen to them and you kind of work out that they're not actually evil. And what does evil mean? And how to, so the emotion is really important to be able to tune in. You don't need to agree, but you need to absolutely put yourself in that body, heart, mind, heart, soul. And I always think we speak with different frequencies. I've always been told I'm very cerebral, so with our brains, but also to tune into our heart frequency.

And it's well known that the heart radiates an awful lot of energy. I think it also has a different intelligence. So just being able to switch from the mind to the heart is extremely important. And as I said, you don't need to agree, but you just need to listen and hear and appreciate that there's an awful lot that you don't know. And I think humbleness is very important. Coming into a mediation

without any preconceived ideas, being open to different scenarios and trying and going through the rough and smooth because there's an awful lot of emotion. There's a lot of frustration. You come up with an idea. You think, oh, brilliant, excellent. That's going to work.

And then it doesn't necessarily, or part of it does. So being flexible is very important. Being optimistic is absolute key, because there's no point in trying to mediate seemingly intractable conflicts if you don't really believe that there is a way forward. And being open to different solutions, ones that haven't been discussed and chewed 100 million times before. Just talking to you, I'm aware that your CV must be amazing, but also must be quite different from other people's that perhaps list qualifications and skills, whereas a lot of your skills are about personality traits and talents and things that define you.

But I know that you want to inspire more young women to go into leadership and negotiation as well why is that important to you and do you think it's possible to get to get the new people coming forward or is it quite a difficult job that's quite specific no I think that I came in from human rights I'm a human rights lawyer you know all my degrees are in law it sounds terribly boring and when I was interviewed all my degrees are in law. It sounds terribly boring. And when I was interviewed for my first degree in law at university, and I was asked, Oh, would you consider I said, what they said, what would you like to do? And I said, my interview said, Oh, I would like to do international negotiations and peace negotiations, and advise governments on how

to get to peace. And I feel that a law degree would be a useful tool in this. And they said, oh, what about tax law and commercial law? Would you consider doing that? And I sort of thought, oh, no idea. I've never done anything about tax law and anything about commercial law. It doesn't interest me at all. And I thought it would be a terrible answer to say absolutely not. So I said, well, I'm open to studying. And if I develop a passion for it, then I will pursue it. And if not, a passion for it, then I will pursue it. And if not, then I will just have an additional qualification. But I will pursue my passions.

I think pursuing one's passion is very important. I really do. I think that that would be my greatest tip for the young ladies that I'm going to speak to in a school on International Human Rights Day. It's very important to inspire young people, to explain to them. I think everyone has what it takes to get to peace. And I think every single one of us and every single listener has a role to play. I think if you get to inner peace and peace with yourself and harmony with yourself,

it puts you in a much better position to, if everybody had achieved internal peace, there would also be peace in the world. I think that's a great tip and something we're probably all going to strive for this year. I know that you're one of very few women at the higher levels of these negotiations. Do you think you're treated differently because of that? I think I'm treated differently in the sense that I walk into a room and I make sure I'm dressed appropriately. I think the energy is different maybe. And it's like, oh, Nomi's here.

So it's quite nice to see a woman's face and quite a smiley person. I'm not a stern, a harsh, nasty, you know, I don't have long nails and sort of horrendous nail varnish on it. I kind of, I'm quite a soft person inside and I think that comes across. And I think softness actually is

another quality, talking of qualities that one needs. I think softness is a really important quality in international negotiation and mediation, unlike commercial negotiation, where one party is trying to achieve more than the other. In international negotiations, you're trying to reach an agreement. So you're trying to reach a compromise whereby both parties won't feel that they're hard done by and they will feel this is a worthy compromise because ultimately they could live in peace and stability and equality and dignity. Thank you so much, Nomi. That was Nomi Bar-Yakoff from Chatham House speaking to me there. And still with me, of course, is Nicky Perfect,

former negotiator with the New Scotland Yard Crisis Negotiation Unit. And Nikki, I could see you nodding along there to Nomi talking. And especially when she mentioned having the heart and mind playing a part in negotiations. You yourself have talked about these two brains, the emotional one and the logical one. Is that important in negotiating? Yeah, definitely. Because it's important to know where you're speaking from. So I was always taught, I was lucky enough to go over and work with the FBI. And one of their great negotiators, he always said to me, Nick, you know, you can't control what other people do.

But the one thing you can control is how you respond, how you respond to what people say to you and what you do. And I've always taken that on board. And so I think it's really important, especially in family negotiations, especially when there's so much emotion in a family negotiation, is that you recognise that when you do become emotional, when you do start talking from that emotional perspective, and actually embracing that emotion, like we've just heard, is yeah, because we are emotional beings. And there is a lot of emotion involved in crisis negotiation, in international negotiations, in family negotiations. So for me, it's about just recognising the space that you're sitting in at the time

and do you need to just step out of that space for a bit before you come back? Because talking about family, which I think could be one of the most trickiest situations going, you have a 16-year-old daughter. So what sort of negotiations do you go through with her? So thankfully, I have a pretty good 16 year old daughter. And so she's, she's a stepdaughter. And I'll always remember the first time I met her. She was six, I was in my early 40s. And of course, I thought I knew everything about children, because I was a great parent until I had a child in my life. And then I remember

going around there and they were having their house renovated at the time. And I thought, I know that the really nice thing to do would be to take around a meal for them both. And that will show to Meg that I am a trustworthy, decent adult and she'll accept me straight away. Of course, that didn't happen. So I take her, I take in a chicken chicken casserole I put it on the side in the kitchen she walks in and she's like what is that I'm like that's chicken casserole and she went I don't like chicken casserole and walked straight out oh my goodness and I was like I'm gonna have to work on this step parenting thing an assumption on my part that I would gain trust by just a chicken casserole and of course it doesn't work like that trust is super important we heard that earlier that you've got to get to a level of trust with

somebody before they will be willing to collaborate or even listen to what you've got to say I mean she sounds like quite a few six-year-olds I know so yeah don't feel bad for that half but what what are your top tips for us negotiating with with family or with friends yeah so so we'll go back to that perspective so um we have our own belief system, our own truth, as we've just heard. And sometimes we live into that truth and other people have a different perspective and a different truth.

And sometimes when people challenge our perspective, it feels like they're challenging us personally. And because of that, we can hit back with like a confrontation and an emotional response. Now we know that the emotional response generally lasts about 90 seconds. There's a great book called My Stroke of Insight by Dr. Bolt Taylor and she talks about how she was a brain specialist, she had a stroke and she started observing

everything that was going on around her and she noticed that if you don't say anything, if you don't respond within 90 seconds, actually that emotional sort of adrenaline that goes through the body where you just want to kick back, it stops. It eases down. Now, you can keep it in play by starting to think about it. And so you can if you think about a difficult conversation you've ever had, you replay it, replay it over and over again. And the more you think about it, the more the more wound up you get it. And maybe the more angry or frustrated or whatever it might be. So just remember that, that sometimes if you can just press the big pause button for 90 seconds and let that go before you respond, you might avoid a conflict conversation. That's a very good tip.

It's so hard in the moment, though, isn't it? But it's definitely something we can try. Maybe one of our New Year's resolutions. Well, thank you for those tips, Nikki. And of course, we probably all negotiate more day to day than we might realise. If you have kids, especially negotiating with small ones to put their shoes on or maybe negotiating a curfew with older ones. But especially around the holidays, there's lots of negotiations, maybe around where to spend Christmas or who goes to where. Or for many of you, there'll be in-laws to negotiate with

and parents and external family. Well, joining me now are Jane Dowden, who you might know better as Mum and a Mike on Instagram and TikTok. She shares her parenting highs and lows in hilarious fashion. Also, Catherine Hallisey, a clinical psychologist

to help us look a bit further into our brains when we're negotiating. Well, I want to get down to children now and those negotiations. And we'll do that in just a moment. But first, Catherine, you work especially with children and parents. So how much of your work is about negotiating? I think it's fair to say that 99% of my work is about negotiation. I think any human who is interacting with any other person, we're negotiating all day long. There may be small negotiations right up to the bigger, more high intensity conflict points. And so I just listened with such fascination to the

previous speakers, because everything that was said actually applies to family negotiations as well. Even from the point of view of what Nikki was just saying there about emotions. So emotions are simply energy in motion. So if we can allow that wave of emotion to just pass for the 60 seconds, sorry, the 90 seconds, we can then come to a much steadier place in our responses rather than having a big emotional reaction. So what actually is going on in our head psychologically when we are negotiating? Because it seems there's a lot of emotion involved, but there must be other things at play as well.

There are so many emotions involved, you know, so you might, you know, anger might be the emotion that gets triggered. And anger then is likely to trigger the fight state you know the fight or flight or you may feel anxious and that then will trigger the flight state and you may want to avoid conflict at all costs and we know that both of those emotions when you bring them into the negotiation they do lead to poorer outcomes and the line here that I use is the power is in the pause. So if you can just pause, keep those words in your mouth and process the feeling that's going through you, and then you are able to respond much more thoughtfully. And even the concept that was spoken about earlier of listening to understand. So when I'm working with parents, and especially when they're talking

about conflict with our teenagers, I say, you know, your job now for this week is listen, listen, listen. And when you feel like you've listened enough, listen some more. And I know you've looked at this in particular because there is a difference between men and women, isn't there? Women have different skills when it comes to negotiating. What do you see as them? So in terms of men and women, I don't think these are inbuilt differences. I feel that these are gender biases that are conditioned from an early age. So women and girls tend to be conditioned to be nice and likeable above all else.

And boys and men are conditioned to be assertive slash aggressive. And these gender biases, I feel that they restrict both of us. But typically assertiveness is interpreted as aggression in women. So women tend to really foster other skills, for example, empathy, perspective taking, staying at the table no matter what, seeing things through.

And we know that persistence and patience are actually incredibly helpful in negotiation so these are strengths that that women when you become aware of them you can actually really enhance them and also when you become aware of the ones that are less helpful in negotiation so for example changing your behaviour so you're more likeable or changing and having porous boundaries because you want to be nice. So when you are aware of that, you can actually become more aware of your own behaviours then that actually may be harming your negotiation or your conflict resolution skills. But at the same time, I suppose it's something I massively relate to when you feel that, and I suppose all of us do, you need to be nice in these situations you need to you know it would be nice if people like you but at the same time does that hold you back from getting what you want or what you need? If it becomes your primary driver yes it will definitely hold you back. I don't think there's

anything wrong with likability it's simply when that's your number one driver, when you are experiencing a threat to your identity, when you perceive that somebody doesn't like you, that is then when you can mould yourself in all sorts of different shapes, rather than being in the place that you want to be, setting those boundaries and enforcing those boundaries that you want to, so that you can create that life you want, so that you can create the family relationships that you want to so that you can create that life you want so that you can create the family relationships that you want to have so it's a balance between the two and talking of family relationships jane i want to turn to you now because you've got twin boys i do seven years old how much negotiating do you have to get into oh so much so much just getting out the door i you know put the shoes on yeah brush your teeth eat your breakfast can we

get in the car and it's so interesting what you were saying about that 90 seconds I've never thought of it like that but I find that when I mean I've cried in the morning before going to the school from pure frustration of just come oh my god just get in the car why does this have to be so difficult and actually if I on the times when I've got the perspective to just bring it down a notch chill and just sort of I guess give them time to know that you know okay you can have two more minutes but then we really have to go because if we're late then that's going to put pressure on mummy and I don't want to you know start my day do you want to start your day feeling like this I don't want to and actually you think in the moment by stressing it come on go go out out now now now it's not

actually quicker yeah actually taking that time to have a breath and I didn't really know that's what I was doing but now I do um to kind of just go okay what's going on here calm down everybody this is what we need to do actually when I do that the morning's more pleasant and it's that understanding again isn't it but rather when we've heard from adults they're trying to understand other people's perspective yeah you're trying to let your children understand your perspective you're trying to tell them this is where we are this is what's happening this is why mummy's pulling her hair out and I do and I apologize to them when I do and I go look I'm just stressed and actually this isn't all on you I could have got myself more organised this morning.

I feel like when you're more human with your children, it's a lot easier to negotiate when you just, you know, don't have to be this figure up high that gets to set all the rules. I think if you just come down to their level and talk to them like a human, that sometimes gets much better results. And I feel better about myself as well. So for the rest of us who are still crying on the bottom step, what are your top tips? Like how do you negotiate with children?

Pick your battles, I would say, is one of the most important things. Sometimes it's just not worth getting in the trenches for. We went to something a couple of weeks ago and it was an event where my children would, you know, look smart in a suit and they both wanted to wear their Crocs, you know, like sandals. And I really didn't want them to. And they really wanted to.

And I actually just took a step back. And I was like, actually, in the grand scheme of things, if they feel more comfortable going out today with their Crocs on, the issue is mine. It's not theirs. So that's one thing I'd say, just picking your battles. Because would that be worth them having a meltdown, leaving the house, feeling bad about themselves because they're not wearing their cool dinosaur shoes with holes in. So pick your battles. Kind of what I was talking about a minute ago, that trying to diffuse rather than escalate.

So just I try and calm down to the level. And listen, I don't do this every time. You know, I definitely don't if I'm a bit tired or I'm far from perfect but if I want to make something happen I find that just diffusing it calming down just yeah when I escalate it's chaos and everyone has a rubbish morning or wherever we're going yeah no I'm with you I once had to take my children to work when I was interviewing um a legal professional and my daughter refused to take the Jasmine outfit off. So bearing midriff and all and sparkles around her belly. I don't blame her. That's how she went.

I know. And you know what? That's lovely. You know, sometimes if someone was constantly telling me what I've got to wear, I'm like, no, I don't want to do. So why is there this kind of older figure that just gets to tell them what to do all the time? So, yeah, I find that hard. I do have to sort of rein it in, but I try to let them be themselves. We've had a brilliant tweet here from Angela Rawlins or Batty Bird on Twitter.

She sent this brilliant response to our question. Do you negotiate with your children? She just replies in block capitals, no. So there you go. That's one perspective. Is there anything that's non-negotiable, do you think? Yeah, there are some stuff. For some bizarre reason,

my children are obsessed with horror films. I don't know why. And obviously that's got to be age appropriate. So there's some, they keep coming on about Alfred Hitchcock at the moment. I don't know why. They've heard something about Psycho and they want to watch it. Now that's a non-negotiable. They're not allowed to watchitchcock at the moment I don't know why they've heard something about Psycho and they want to watch it now that's a non-negotiable they're not allowed to watch Psycho

at the moment um so they you know they keep coming to me like so exactly how old have we got to be well I need I need to check the rating but we'll talk about it nearer the time but I think with some stuff you know if a video game's too violent that's a non-negotiable I think they get a sense from me whether there's room for a conversation. And I think if there isn't, I think they can sense that and they'll probably drop it quite quickly because it's not up for discussion. And what about with your husband? Do you work well as a negotiating team?

Because it is quite common that one's softer than the other. Yeah. Do you know what? We flip depending, I think. We try to. I think on the important stuff we try to back each other um but we're not perfect again you know who is so there are times when I don't and the kids get wing you know wind of that straight away and they will play play one of the other um but I

think on the important things we do and we try and reinforce as well so if something's been done that we don't deem acceptable and my husband's talking to them about that, I will interject to sort of say, you know, we are united on this. That wasn't unacceptable. I don't appreciate you talking to that. As a team. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. And Catherine, just to bring you back in. What would your top tip be for our listeners when it comes to negotiating with a partner or a loved one or someone that is that close to you? Well, I'm smiting listening to Jean because I have five children, including twin girls at the end. Wow. So I can really identify with everything you're saying.

And I think to pick out some really important points in terms of choosing your battles, it's also important that as parents, when we get stressed, we can default to a no state all of the time. And that tends to come from stress because the more stressed we feel, the more we want to control everything. And yet you've both spoken about times where you have relinquished control and it becomes a funny story. And that happens so often in our parenting lives if we allow it. So the more we can mind ourselves, I think that really enhances our ability to navigate potential conflicts. And then this empathy and perspective taking. So let's say with your partner, being able to put yourself in their shoes.

And can that be said the same for in-laws or grandparents? Because that can be another level of difficulty, couldn't it? Oh, definitely. You know, and I have a really good process for navigating conflict with your in-laws. And it's simply that the person who has the primary relationship is in charge of negotiating boundaries. That person who has the primary relationship, they have to be the one because, of course, their relationship is stronger than like, let's say it's you with your in-laws. If you're coming in and setting boundaries, there's huge potential for divided loyalties.

And I think you can easily step on landmines, whereas if your partner steps on that same landmine, they have a much stronger buffer in their relationship to be able to repair that and go on and make peace. Yeah, that makes complete sense. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you, Jane. I have been noting down everything you've said. So next week in our house, there's going to be peace, harmony, and everyone's going to have their shoes on and at school at exactly the right time. So psychologist Catherine Hallisey and mum and a mic, Jane Dowden,

thank you both for coming on the programme this morning. Now, if you cast your mind back, not too far, but to the end of last year, it was COP28, the biggest coming together of representatives and leaders from all over the world. And it's all about negotiating how we can come together to tackle climate change. So now we come to the second of our guests who was involved in hugely influential negotiations there. Rachel Kite has been to several COP negotiations and was the former UN General Secretary's Special Representative for Sustainable Energy for All. Rachel, welcome back from Dubai. So first of all, how many COPs have you actually been to? Too many.

Too many to count. So you have been in the room where these negotiations have been happening. Negotiations that hopefully end in nations across the world agreeing to tackle climate change together. But I'm sure it can't be smooth running. What is that like? Yeah, so I think it's important to think of it as concentric circles. So in the very inner circle, you've got people representing governments. So they're civil servants and then ministers come in

when it comes down to the final wire. And then you've got around them you've got a second circle of people often that's where i would be so providing technical expertise organizations that would have to implement the things that are negotiating etc then you've got another concentric circle which is sort of civil society and lobbyists and others who feel very strongly about what's being negotiated. And then you've got the media in a fourth concentric circle trying to report on it and often casting light on what's going on because it's very difficult to know. So it is it's tense in the United Nations. Every country has one vote.

So you can have a country as small as the Marshall Islands with,000 people up against the United States or China. And that's why I think for the world, it's so important that it takes place in that venue, because there's no success for one part of the world unless the other part of the world is succeeding as well. There's no it's like a boat, you know, one one end of the boat can't go up. You know, the whole boat has got to rise. So that's a very important part of the dynamic. And we've been hearing this morning about, well, how we should listen to other people's perspectives. But we're talking about world leaders here who have a lot at stake. So how much do emotions and feelings and taking that pause, how do they come into that? So it becomes extremely tense at the end of a two-week negotiation where nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

And so some countries will want one paragraph, others will want another. But you've got to have everything agreed for everybody and then you land the deal. So it becomes extremely personally pressurized. But in the run-up to that, you've got creating all the work that creates the conditions for success to be more likely. So the role of the presidency, the country that's hosting know, amongst very important senior women in different parts of the puzzle, that there's more that unites us than divides us. And so we want an outcome

and that we can help create the conditions for success. And there are now, I know, more women representatives now than when you started. How important is the role of women negotiators at COP? Well, there's been consistent pressure for many years to A, have the issues of sort of how climate differentially impacts women and men in the negotiations. And Mary Robinson, the former president of Ireland,

has really played a strong role in getting the issue on the agenda and then keeping it there. And then there's been a huge effort to get more women into the negotiations. And, you know, I teach negotiations, so I'm pleased to see some of my students now sitting at the table negotiating. But then I think that you've had, you know, a group of women in particularly in the run up to the Paris Agreement, and then subsequently who continue to keep lines of communication open, even if we maybe positionally don't agree with each other,

because at the end of the day, we want the greatest impact and the strongest agreement. And so there is a sort of informal network, I think, of women that is very important. And also there is a solidarity because it can get very intense and a woman can be negotiating and, you know, she's got to be smarter than the guy. She's got to know more. There's a sort of toxic masculinity can sort of break out every now and again. You're also alone very late at night in small groups. I mean, there's a whole sort of what you wear, etc. I mean, there's a whole set of things that you have to think about as a woman negotiating or as a woman trying to influence that perhaps men don't. That may surprise a lot of people. You talk about toxic masculinity there.

Tell us more about that. Is that present yes i think um uh it's it's basically a reflection of what you can often find in society so a young woman is negotiating and comments about her dress comments about her looks um is she uh is she heard is she listened to the famous quote quote by Ruth Bader Ginsburg, if a woman puts an idea forwardaments around the world and I think you're having a greater balance of perspective in the room and having a real mix of representation is really really important and this question about listening I think is key. I mean because it's quite surprising to hear when you think of COP negotiations you think that everyone will be listened to. These are really important things you're talking about. So to hear from you that people are discussing what clothes women are wearing and they're not listening to them when they're at the table, that may shock a lot of people. to me in Dubai, right, and say, you know, we have to build relationships between each other,

because it's really hard in there, you know, I might be the only woman, because the negotiations break down into small groups. And so if you've got a lot of delegations with not very many women on them, then you may find yourself sort of reasonably isolated, even though we're talking about climate in 2023. So yes, I mean, I had the young women negotiators sort of coming and sort of looking for confidence building for some reassurance and for some sort of, you know, tactics. So I think it does still go on. But that said, we have women playing key roles, the Special Envoy for Climate for Germany, a woman, the head of the EU negotiations, the Deputy Prime Minister of Spain, a woman, women who have been steeped in

climate politics and the science for decades, right? So they bring an authority and an authenticity to their role. The architects of the Paris Agreement, Laurence Tubiano for the French government, for the UN, Christiana Figueroa, women. So there is this sense that key women in key positions can actually come together and And they all know each other. They all respect each other, even if they don't agree with each other and everything. I think that kind of solidarity is absolutely critical. Women are present, as you say,

and it's good to hear that they're coming together in solidarity. But it's also sad to hear that that misogyny is still there. Do you think COP29 can be different? What do you hope for the future? And how can we possibly get there? Well, until society shifts, I think, you know, the negotiations are a microcosm of that shift. But I think women understand viscerally that climate is about the well-being of children, the next generation is the well-being of the most vulnerable. We know that societies that understand the sort of social bonds that women provide within a community can be more resilient is a sort of a sensible way to

actually get there. So women as agents, as negotiators, women as agents for change, and women as at the community level, at national level, international level, being an equal part of this process, I think is fundamental to the outcome, not just the way that it gets negotiated. There are criticisms, of course, that COP negotiations don't achieve what they set out to do and that they're not committed to tackling climate change fast enough and big enough what's your view? Yeah I mean we're we're I think the pushback that you saw in in Dubai was the sort of cry the last cry of a dying swan right we're getting to the point now where it is impossible to imagine that a fossil-fueled

world can get us to where we want to be. We have to wean ourselves off fossil fuels. And so, therefore, all of the vested interests in fossil fuels worldwide, and then those countries that have a vested interest in continuing to produce those fossil fuels, and everybody who has a vested interest in continuing to consume them, fighting back and the backlash is significant. And so it's not surprising that we see these kinds of really heart-wrenching down to the wire negotiations, but that means that we're getting to the heart of the matter. Thank you. Rachel Kite, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. It's been fantastic to have you on the show. And that brings us to the end of this special episode of Woman's Hour,

all about women and negotiation. Retired Met Police negotiator Nikki Perfect has of course been with us throughout the programme. Nikki, I just wondered if you could pick just one thing that people need to know when they're communicating or negotiating. One thing for them to take away today, what would that be? For me it would be listening. So be more present in the conversation

and don't make it all about you and waiting for your turn in the conversation to tell everybody what your opinion is. Just hear what people are really saying. Nikki, perfect. Thank you so much for being with us throughout the special programme today. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.