Woman's Hour - Women and Prison, Acid Attacks, Women piano composers, Dr Beth Shapiro

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

In her speech at Labour conference the Secretary of State for Justice Shabana Mahmood said: "for women, prison isn’t working." To discuss her latest announcement, as well as the launch of the Women's Justice Board, Nuala is joined by the former Chief Inspector of Prisons, Dame Anne Owers, and Lily Blundell, Head of Community Programmes at the charity, Women in Prison. A manhunt is continuing following a suspected acid attack outside a school in west London. The attack took place outside Westminster Academy in Westbourne Park, after school, on Monday afternoon. The school was closed yesterday, with lessons taking place online and many staff working from home. Acid attacks increased by 69% in England and Wales last year, with female victims exceeding the number of male victims for the first time, according to one leading charity. Nuala discusses the incident with BBC's Steve Knibbs and Ayesha Nayyar, who is a campaigner and solicitor.The London Piano Festival runs at Kings Place from Friday 4 - Sunday 6 October. Nuala is joined by Katya Apekisheva, co-founder of the festival, a Professor of Piano at The Guildhall School of Music and Drama, and prize-winning pianist Rose McLachlan, to explore of the lives and music of women piano composers from the last two centuries. Dr Beth Shapiro is an evolutionary biologist working in de-extinction. She is a pioneer in the ancient DNA field, and features in a new documentary: Hunt for the Oldest DNA. Her work goes towards saving species from extinction and fighting against climate change. She joins Nuala to talk about her work and why it’s so important. Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome. Well, this morning, should most women who are in prison be there? That is a question we're delving into following Labour's announcement about the Women's Justice Board. Its goal will be to reduce the number of women going to prison. Also today, can you de-extinct the woolly mammoth? Well, my guest, the evolutionary molecular biologist, Dr. Beth Shapiro,

is going to give it a good old try through the magic of ancient DNA. And also today, I want your piano stories. We will have two pianists in this hour performing in advance of the Piano Festival in London, which is taking place this weekend. But I want to know, what role has the piano had in your life? I have a grand piano right in front of me here in Studio A, a thing of beauty. But is the piano something that has

brought you joy? Or is it a piece of furniture that's gathering dust in your mother's living room? Maybe it's something that you're trying to master or remaster after lessons as a child.

Does a piano's keyboard bring back dreaded memories of lessons perhaps and an obligation to practice? Well, whatever it is, I want to hear your piano story you can text us 84844 on social media

we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 03700100444 that item is coming up in just a couple of minutes time

so message me now if you'd like to share your story. But let us begin with a manhunt you would have just heard in the news bulletin there that is continuing following a suspected acid attack outside a school in West London. The attack took place outside Westminster Academy in Westbourne Park. It was after school on Monday afternoon. The school was closed yesterday with lessons taking place online and many staff working from home. Asset attacks have increased by 69%

in England and Wales last year, with female victims exceeding the number of male victims for the first time, according to one leading charity. I can speak now to the BBC, Steve Nibbs, who is outside the school. Good to have you with us, Steve.

So what do we know about this attack? I mentioned a couple of details there. Yeah, morning, Eula. This was a truly awful attack, obviously. It happened on Monday afternoon after school had finished at around 20 to 5 in the afternoon. What police have told us is that the attacker arrived on an e-scooter and threw a substance at two young people outside the school.

What that substance is, is the real focus of this investigation. And of course, they are analysing that at the moment, but they've described it as acidic. In a statement from the school, actually, they described it as corrosive. A member of staff from the school came out to help the two young people and was also injured by that substance. In terms of the injuries that we know of now, that 14-year-old girl, as you say, still in hospital with potentially life-changing injuries. It's too early at this stage, we understand, to say just how severe those injuries will be. There's also

a 16-year-old boy still in hospital and that 27-year-old woman, the teacher or member of staff from the school who's been discharged, she had less serious injuries. And a couple of police officers also reported feeling unwell after helping in the aftermath and they've been treated in hospital too. And so at the school today where you are anybody going in and out what is the scene? Yeah the school was closed yesterday understandably the school saying that the principal issued a statement saying that they were in shock it was very distressing students being taught online as you've said and the school was supporting the community the saying that they were in shock. It was very distressing. Students being taught online, as you've said,

and the school was supporting the community, the friends and relatives of those affected by this attack. Today, the school has reopened. There are safety measures in place. There were two members of the Metropolitan Police here talking to students and families. There are parents and families milling around at the moment. Some of them are visibly upset, but the school trying to get back to normal. There are counsellors and support staff inside the school as well because there will be many questions and concerns

obviously and police have issued an appeal for information about this suspect seen on the e-scooter. They describe him as a tall, slim, black male. He was wearing dark clothing, riding this e-scooter around the time of the attack and potentially wearing a mask or a balaclava covering his face. This would have been really busy at 20 to 5. The school is on a main road, so maybe people had dashcam footage.

The police say they won't stop, of course, until they find out who is responsible. Any idea of whether it was a targeted attack at this stage? There's no other indication from the police about that at the moment. I mean, this happened Monday afternoon. It would have been very busy. This is a very busy community. Lots of people about. Rumours, no doubt, will be going around about who was responsible.

But we've had nothing firm or official at the moment from the Metropolitan Police. You know, this might be reminding people that there was another chemical attack. That was in February this year. It was on a mother and child with life-changing injuries. Yeah, people will remember this because at the time there was quite a startling cctv image of a suspect called abdul azadi who police said had traveled down from newcastle and carried out this attack with a corrosive a strong concentrated corrosive substance on this woman that affected also her two young children as well and that cct was of Abdul Azadi in a supermarket in London

and he had obvious injuries to the right side of his face but then later in February they confirmed that a body had been found in the River Thames and was formally identified as the suspect in that attack and during the investigation police say there was a very strong indication that azadi had been in a relationship with a woman who was hurt in the attack and had arranged to meet her in london and they said that the breakdown of their relationship that may have been a motive but he traveled sort of 300 miles from newcastle to carry out that attack at the end of january thanks so much steve um for speaking to us here on Women's Hour. He's outside that school in London.

It is near Westbourne Park. But I do want to bring in Aisha Nair, who's a campaigner and solicitor on these issues. You've worked for a number of victims of these types of attacks. I'm wondering what you're thinking when you've heard the latest story. Well, sadly, I'm not surprised because as we heard in the introduction, acid attacks are on the increase. We know that they're increasing year on year and we know for the first time that they've surpassed women being attacked have surpassed men. So there's more women being attacked than men. And I'm'm not surprised but I'm absolutely devastated to wake up to news yesterday that this has happened again. A couple of things there

you know it's often women that are in the headlines when it comes to acid attacks as they're often termed. I'm almost surprised that in, it's for the first time that women have exceeded being the victims in this particular type of attack. How do you understand the demographic breakdown? Well, I think, sadly, historically, this was a crime very much in this country linked to gang warfare. It was male on male but as acid has become a weapon of choice not only for gang members and those committing violent offenses it's become a weapon of choice on our streets and there are lots of different reasons for what that meant is it's very easy to use obtain and women are increasingly becoming the victims of these

attacks and of course this latest one we don't know a motive or whether it was even a targeted obtain and women are increasingly becoming the victims of these attacks. And of course, this latest one, we don't know a motive or whether it was even a targeted attack in any way. But some of the data that I've seen, so there were this from England and Wales, there were 710 acid attacks recorded last year compared with 421 in 2021. That's according to the acid survivors trust international um and i'm wondering are there gaps in the law that you feel could help minimize these attacks taking place yeah absolutely i think we've what we've got to do is we've got to accept that there is a problem we've got to take action we've got to put it on the agenda and raise awareness this isn't a crime that needs to be brushed under the

carpet it needs to be brought to the forefront because it's happening on our streets from a grassroots level there's lots of good work that's gone into prevention of knife crime i want to see that reflected with acid crime as well we've got to educate communities we've got to make these substances more difficult to get hold of as well. And I've long been an advocate for harsher sentences for anyone who has used acid or possesses it. Because I really do think we've got to send the right message out that we will not tolerate acid crime on our streets, especially not against women. So what would this be though? I'm thinking of in really practical terms because obviously this acid is used for other purposes what sort of

authorization would you need to to buy it? Well you already need authorization to buy certain levels of acid but the problem that we've got is it's still available online which is why I'm going I always go back to yes make it difficult to get hold of but at the same time we've got to send the message out that we we can't use acid on our streets and anybody that is using it because I don't I think it will all it would be virtually impossible a little bit like knives to stop people getting hold of acid if they really want to but what we can certainly do is we can throw the book at anyone who uses it. So you're talking about a much more severe sentence

for anybody who has used it? Absolutely. Well, at the moment and in this incident, we don't know the extent of it, but with acid crime, we've had cases where the victims have sadly died. We've had victims that have been, the perpetrators have been charged with grievous bodily harm, assault occasion bodily harm.

I would say always go in at the highest tariff when sentencing with these crimes. Now, we know that GBH can carry a maximum life sentence. I would want acid victims to have justice by their perpetrators being literally thrown the book at and going in at the higher end of these sentencing tariffs. Because you've worked with victims of attacks like these,

how would you describe the impact of it on them? Devastating. Not just physical symptoms, there's also the ongoing psychological symptoms that these well we see now mainly women are left with remember with the physical symptoms these are lifelong injuries these are burned they are incredibly painful they often require lifelong treatment lifelong skin graft. And then you've got the psychological aspect, flashbacks, the fear of going out. I've had clients say to me in the past that they were suicidal at what had happened to them.

So I don't think you can underestimate the effect an acid attack has on its victim. And it's not just the victim. What I will say is it's not just the victim what i will say is yeah it's it's not just the victim it's the family members it's the boyfriend it's the girlfriend it's you're living with and very often these are attacks that take place that maim the face um so you're living with this every single day and it's very very visible to the outside community as well so you almost can't get away from it yeah it's interesting because I'm just thinking about, you brought up knife crime there,

and I'm just thinking of comparisons with it, if it's even possible to do, talking about maiming in one way as opposed to another. I do wonder, however, though, if someone witnessed a suspected acid attack, what are you supposed to do? Well, immediately dial 999, get the police, get the ambulance out there, and then it's running water,

buckets of water, wrench them in water just to kind of get rid of that solution. But it is very, it's very, very dangerous to be a bystander of an acid attack because we've seen here we don't know we don't know the facts of this particular case but i suspect other people involved have gone to help we know that there's police officers who have sought treatment as a result it's very difficult to be a a bystander here because you with acid it is transferable um but definitely running water get the police services out but it is a worry for secondary victims absolutely

asian ir thank you so much campaigner and solicitor as we speak about the acid attack that took place in london on monday afternoon now i want to turn instead to music i have a lot of your piano stories coming in. Thank you so much for sending them. Shall we read a couple before we get into our item fully? We've had a piano in our house for 20 years and I never went anywhere near it

until I challenged myself to learn. When COVID struck, I now love it and I'm quietly impressed by the range of music I can play. Hashtag, it's never too late. That's Andrew, age 66. Thanks, Andrew. Julian Aberdeen. I am a psychotherapist. I create a space where my clients communicate with me

through words, feelings, memory and process. It can be a profound, transformative and deeply human experience. But for me, I find this between me and my piano. It is my therapy. What is communicated between my fingers and the keys is heard and expressed by the strings, the sustain, the notes and all of the spaces between echoes what is within me. My piano is my constant and my companion. How lovely, Julie. 8-4-8-4-4. If you want to get in touch, lots of you are. And why am I discussing the piano?

Well, it is in advance of the London Piano Festival running at King's Place from Friday the 4th of October to Sunday the 6th. And half of the programme is dedicated to celebrating the work of female composers across the last co-founder of the festival and professor of piano at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, and also by the pianist Rose McLaughlin, winner of the Chopin Prize at both Chathams and the Royal Northern College of Music. Welcome to you both. Katia, let me begin with you. For this year's festival, half the programme is dedicated,

as I mentioned, to celebrating the work of female composers. Can you give us an idea of the range of composers that feature? Yes, of course. I mean, we've always been proud with London Piano Festival, which is in its ninth year this year, of having a lot of diversity and actually always featuring women artists and women composers who have commissioned some pieces for our festival

and actually have commissioned for next our anniversary year. We commissioned Elena Langer and Cheryl Frances Hode. And we're very passionate about discovering new music. And indeed, there are some fantastic female composers who have been forgotten for a long time and we're just fascinated to discover some of them.

So on Saturday at 12 o'clock, Charles Owen and myself, we are co-artistic directors of London Piano Festival, going alongside Gabriel Fauré's works. It's his 100 years since his death. We are going to perform works by Mel Bonice and Cécile Chaminade. Let's talk about Mel Bonice for a moment.

Tell us about her music and her dramatic life story. Yes, she was quite an important figure in French late Romantic period. So she lived in end of 19th century, beginning of 20th century. And she went to Paris Conservatoire, where she got some tuition from César Frank, where she fell in love with a fellow musician, which her parents really didn't approve of, taking her out of conservatoire. And then she married a wealthy, much older man, had children with him, and later in life she again met her first love

and began an affair with him. And she became pregnant with her lover's child. And somehow, amazingly, she managed to hide her marriage, hide her pregnancy, sorry, from her husband and gave birth in secret and gave up her child to her former maid who raised her child. But somehow kept connection with her daughter, with her daughter not knowing that was her mother. And later on, Melbonissa's son fell in love with that illegitimate daughter. And so she had to very dramatically reveal that they were related. That they were sibling or half siblings, should I say. I mean, this is kind of the story that's going on, the music in the front.

You're going to perform for us, Katja. Yes. Tell us a little about what it is. It is a little beautiful piece called Melisande, who is like a mythical character who was discovered by a prince in forest by the pond. And this piece sort of has beautiful flow of water. You can really hear it. How beautiful, just dreamy.

I think you took us off into a different land. But Melisande, her name was Mel or Melanie Bonice. Was there any connection between the names? You know, I haven't thought about it before, but there might as well be. And by the way, she kind of changed her name to Mel, as not to sound too female. Oh, right, because kind of more androgynous.

Yeah. So beautiful. Rose, let us turn to you, who's sitting with me, and come on over, Katja, to our desk. Katja was at our Grand grand piano here in ATA. Rose, you're making your festival debut. You're going to present 22 pieces inspired by Chopin's 22 Nocturnes. Tell us a little bit about why you came up with this idea and what you're planning.

Well, it all started in my final year at the Royal Northern College of Music, where we were asked to come up with some kind of creative project. And I think like many pianists, I've always loved Chopin's music. And so I decided, alongside Eleanor Cobb, who runs EVC Music Publications, that we would commission 22 new compositions by female composers. That's a lot of compositions. It is, yeah.

We did a competition. We put a call out to composers and we got over 60 submissions from all around the world. And then along with the committee, we chose 22 of those. How difficult was that? Very, very difficult because we all have different opinions on what we like obviously

but I'm really pleased with what we have in this collection. Tell me a little bit about yourself. You're from a family of musicians I understand. Yes all my family are pianists pretty much. You know I've had lots of comments I just threw it out to people you know for their piano stories. Shall I read you

a couple that are coming in at the moment? Getting to know pianos from the inside has been my life's work. From my first piano lesson, age five through the grades, then to become that rarity, a woman piano technician qualifying in 1983. Twelve years as head technician at the Royal

Northern College of Music, your home. Pianos have become my life and my livelihood, working with some of the world's finest concert grounds for the concert pianists of the future and the present. Here's a different one is Jane from Fabergeham. About 50 years ago, I plugged away piano lessons and somehow managed to scrape a pass at grade one. My teacher was kind, but I obviously tried his patience one day when I failed to produce anything he could bear to listen to. He said Jane you keep practicing I'm going for a walk around the garden. So you neither of you had that problem I'm feeling that early on you knew that that you were going to become a pianist but what about some of the other women composers, Rose, that inspire you in the programme?

Yes, well, it all sort of started in my grade eight when I was a bit younger. That's one of the last grades, right? Yes, yeah. I played a piece by Lily Boulanger. And at the time, I didn't really think this is by a woman composer. I just thought it's such a beautiful piece. And since then, her music is being played

more like Clara Schumann and a lot of these composers from the past are finally getting the spotlight they deserve. Isn't that interesting though that it was more a discovery afterwards that it was I suppose because just there were so many that were forgotten Katya as you mentioned right? Yes yes I sadly, because it was just not encouraged. I think women were not encouraged, really, and it was not appropriate for them to pursue it very seriously. And actually, in fact, when Camille Stenson heard Melanie Bonis' piano quartet,

he famously said, I never would have imagined the woman could have written that. And it was often the wives of very famous composers, of course, that are just coming to the fore now or kind of being remembered, which we often find no matter what sphere we go into historically, that there was often women, often partners or wives that were doing great work beside the men, but just not getting the recognition.

Yes, I mean, we're lucky to live in time now that they can confidently say a woman in the last couple of decades born in that time can make a living from being a composer and can make it a profession. Rose, you're going to play for us. Go ahead over to the piano there. That is great. So you feel that there has been um an improvement in

terms of representations of female composers oh yes i i think i personally think it's really equal these days really yes i do i mean um i mean you can see female composers everywhere their names and um what about amy beach amy beach was uh at the time but that's we're talking again in she lived in in 20th century so it was she was in fact i think the first american female composer who wasn't trained in europe and was first published composer who had some success and also, her music is played much more in recent times. I want to read another couple of the messages coming in. I learned to play, this is Gilly, I learned to play at six. I'm now 81, mostly just play hymns, but tinkling away

on the keys makes me feel calm and takes my mind off my anxieties. My lovely husband has just died and his funeral is in a couple of weeks. I'm sorry to hear that, Gilly. He was not religious, but whenever I played Dear Lord and Father of Mankind, he would rouse himself from his dementia and I would find him at my side singing along with my playing. How beautiful. What a beautiful memory. Ellie from Stroud, myself and my brother and sister were all brought up to play the piano as my dad played and his grandmother was a concert pianist. I stopped playing when I was a teenager, but took it back up again and started having lessons

nine years ago after the sudden death of my brother. Playing again took me back to my childhood and made me feel closer to him. So interesting that there's these various stories of really, I suppose, how it connected families and kind of brings them back there as well. The piano has always been there. My father played, my mum too, learning when she was 94 to 98.

How wonderful. My piano has been tuned today. That's from Maggie. Great to hear it, Maggie. Well, let me turn to you, Rose. You're going to play for us. Yes, this is a Nocturne by Jennifer Bowman, who's an American

educator and film music composer. Just beautiful. I want to thank both my guests for coming in. Katya Apekhe-Sheva

and Rose McLaughlin. The London Piano Festival will be running this weekend at King's Place from the 4th to 6th of October. And you know,

I've stumbled across something here with the piano and the Womenth to 6th of October. And, you know, I've stumbled across something here with the piano and the Woman's Hour listeners, I feel. So many stories are coming in. I'll just give another couple before we move on to our next item. My mum took up the piano on her 40th birthday. We even wrapped it up.

She never believed in herself, but my sisters and I loved lying in bed at night listening to her practice. There was peace and unity in the house, which will always be one of my most treasured memories Here's Ellen. to lift the lid off an upright piano. I was so, so jealous if anyone had a piano. Then at the age of 29, I carved out a career playing piano in restaurants. Keep them coming.

84844. Now I moved on to piano. I want to just go back to the acid attacks we were talking about at the beginning of the programme. I should say, if you have been affected

by any of what you heard in that item, please do visit the Woman's Hour website for more details on support. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844, of course, and on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, if you want to get in touch with us on any of the stories you have. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig

the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Heard. I want to speak about prisons next. This is what was heard at the Labour conference. For women, prison isn't working. The words of the Secretary of State for Justice, Mishabama Mahmood, and she said that rather than encouraging rehabilitation, prison forces women into a life of crime. She announced the launch of the Women's Justice Board,

whose goal will be to reduce the number of women who are going to prison. Now, as things stand, fewer than 4% of the total prison population that are held are in women's prisons. Women in prison have tended to commit less serious crimes, they're more likely to be a parent compared to men that are prisoners and every year in the UK around 17,000 children are affected by maternal imprisonment, many of whom will end up in the care system. Women in prison are also more likely to have been the victim of violent crime, with around 60% of them having experienced domestic abuse.

Well, let's discuss this policy announcement. It is a big one. I'm joined by Dame Anne Ours, who is the Chief Inspector of Prisons until 2010 and was until last year National Chair of the Independent Monitoring Boards, and that provides oversight of the treatment and care of prisoners. Also Lily Blundell, Head of Community Programs at the charity Women in Prison. She runs services for women in Manchester, South London and also Surrey.

Welcome to both of you. Let me begin with you Anne. What about that comment, for women prison isn't working? Well I think we've known that for a long, haven't we? It's 17 years since Baroness Causton produced her review on women in prison, asking for small residential centres nearer to home. It's six years since the previous government produced its female offender strategy, also saying that we needed more community options for women, fewer short sentences. So this is, sadly, this road is paved with good intentions. What we need to see now is some action, because we know that a lot of women in prison, we know about the problems that you've already described for women in prison. We know that over 50% of women who are sentenced to prison are sentenced for less than six months, during which

not enough can be done to look at the underlying problems that have got them there, but which does disrupt, as you say, their family life and their chances of rehabilitation. And a recent report by both the probation and prisons inspectorate has made clear that in those short times, not enough can be done to deal with the underlying causes. So we're not protecting the public. And we're also damaging both women and their families. So it is beyond time that there was a different approach to women. But how do you understand then it not happening? Because in her speech, also the Justice Secretary said,

the shameful fact is we've known this for two decades. Why would now be any different, do you think? Well, that's, of course, the question everyone's asking. And that means that you've got to put some effort into it. I think what's been clear is that it hasn't had sufficient priority. The focus is often on men's prisons, of course, many, many more men in prison, more violence. Now, I wonder, did I just lose Anne's line there? I think I might have. Let me move over to you, Lily. I will try and reconnect that line.

You have experience of working with women who have been in prison, for example, or are at risk of going to prison. How do you see the picture in front of you? I suppose the news was great to hear in terms of the justice boards coming out. Now I'm getting feedback on your line

forgive me, give me one moment and we'll try and rectify that. Sorry, Lily, would you like to speak again? Yeah, yeah. So apologies. So it's great news. It was a great day for us, sort of a really big celebration. But as Anne said, you know, we have been talking about this for a very, very long time and it's been a long time coming.

I sort of echo some of Anne's concerns. You know, why now? Why wasn't it two decades ago? But it's a good start. And I think for us, it's really good news, but it really needs to be done well. The board really needs to consult with the grassroots organisations,

charities like us that have been doing this and championing it for 40 years. But most importantly, it needs to include women with lived experience of criminal justice system, women with lived experience of vulnerability. They really need to do this well and do it right. And the board needs to be made up of diverse people and it needs to really engage with local communities. Yes, a universal approach to criminal justice, particularly for women, is useful.

But we know that each locality is different each community is different and most importantly each woman is different and they need a different approach which is why community services like ourselves and women in prison exist. I mean there will be people who immediately push back on this right that say the reason prison is there it's as a deterrent the way to stop the women who are committing crime is to have that deterrent in place. Yes, yes, absolutely. But I think so many of the women that we work with, all particularly one, we did a bit of study in one prison,

a women's prison in the UK, and over 70% of them said that they didn't feel safe in the prison. I agree with Anne's point that actually, what good does it do to put people in a prison environment that sets them back such a significant amount of time? We know that self-harm is eight times higher in the women's estate than it is in the men's estate.

Prison is not a safe place for women. And we know this. We know that we can do much better work, much more trauma-informed work and women-centered work in the community um and yes i understand the point around um wanting to be a deterrent for further offending but we know working with women in the community does reduce reoffending does reduce reoffending because of course that's also the issue that that comes up again and again um but but i want to get into the issue of self-harm because i was surprised by some of the statistics i was reading in relation uh to this can you can you expand a little bit on what you found

yeah so the the difficulty is is that the um lots of people are being held in prison incorrectly. What does that mean? So they're held there for reasons that men wouldn't go to prison for and that men potentially would serve a shorter time for or would be in the community for. So if women are being held in prison as a place of safety because they are unmanageable, it's a term that is used in probation, they're unmanageable in the community so they're experiencing quite severe mental health there's not provision um for women in the community they're going to put them in prison as a place of safety for the community but also for themselves we know that that is not a suitable

placement we know that we can do more support in the uk sorry in the community um and in terms of the sort of self-harm rates being so incredibly high, the prison population is yet 4%, but the women's experiences in prison is so acute and it's so troubling that, you know, we've got to try this provision of community support. As Anne said, you know, we're 17 years on for the course of reports that called for community provision. It has been happening and it it has been increasing but it needs to happen more we need to be looking at alternatives to custodies and tapping into um to community services that have been here for a long time that have been working with women for a really long time and

I think we've been able to reconnect with Dame Anne Owers who is the chief inspector who was excuse me the chief inspector of of Prisons until 2010. Good that you're back with us. What about that aspect, however? Like, is the community provision there, do you think, Anne, and ready to go if they're speaking about fast-tracking and moving ahead with reducing the number of women going to prison? Forgive me, I think Dame Anne Ow ours is not there at the moment so let me throw that back to you lily if that's okay do you think that that community provision will be ready to go

so i do i do think in some areas it's ready to go unfortunately the funding is is so sort of different across all of the uk that some community provisions are ready and equipped. Provisions like us, we've been around for a really long time, we're very well rooted in our organisations, with partner organisations in our communities and women with lived experience. So for organisations like us, we are doing this work and we know that we can take it on and we know that we are the best people to be doing it. And we know that women are better off working with us than in an inappropriate placement in prison. I think the funding is just the key element to it.

But there hasn't been specifics yet with the Women's Justice Board on exactly funding, for example, timeline. Yeah, and I suppose that's part of the apprehension that I probably share with Anne is that yes they want to release this board by spring but what what will that look like and what will it result in because ultimately they're looking at reducing the number of women who are in prison and they're wanting to reduce the number of women's prisons in the UK. Ultimately to do that you need

to have alternatives to custody which is a community provision so in order to do that you will need to fund it let me try one more time with dame and always um can you hear me okay yes i can great sorry for that our technical hiccups there um but we have you back which is great we were talking about why it has taken so long i I was also speaking with Lily about, you know, whether there is an alternative system ready to go if, in fact, women were released from prison. I'm not sure whether there is or not. Lily will know much more about this than I do. But one of the problems, of course, is that whereas prisons are funded centrally and by government, a lot of women's centres centres which we know do fantastic work both preventing women going to prison and working with them instead of them being in prison they depend for over 40 percent of their funding on charities on charitable trusts and so on

so there's got to be resilience in that sector there's got to be reliable sustainable funding for alternatives if we're going to in order to create what will be a much better system, both for the women themselves and for society. And forgive me to my listeners for repeating myself, but we haven't had those details yet from the Women's Justice Board. Do you have faith in it? Would you like to be part of it? I think there are other people who can probably, as Lily says, it's really important to have community representatives there to have to have representatives from women themselves. I hope it will work, but it's got to have teeth and it's got to have resources and it's got to make women a much greater priority within criminal justice than they have been. That sounds to me just that you do not want to be part of it. Well, no, that's not true. I haven't been asked.

Okay, no worries. Just with your experience, I was just curious for your take on that. No, I haven't been asked. I mean, what we do know is when we focus resources in youth justice away from prisons and into the community, instead of there being well over 2,000 young people in prison, there are now only 440. So we know that actually focusing resources on prevention, on working with the issues in the community, that those kind of things can work.

I think that rejection of 65%, which I was also reading, I think it's a good news story that perhaps doesn't always get the headlines. And I think we have other headlines this morning about youth offending. But I think it's really working for women in prison. Is it working for men? Could they not benefit as well from interventions like the ones we're speaking about over the past few minutes? Well, of course, the answer is yes. If we're looking to what prevents offending in the first place, what protects the public in the long term, it's clear that short prison sentences can do very little. I think one of the things, though, is that there are some specific problems with women in prison about the extent of short sentences, about the underlying problems and about the generational impact. That means that's a good place to start. It shouldn't necessarily be the place where we finish.

Yes, we're not there yet. What about the most serious female offenders, though, Anne? You know, high-profile women who've been found guilty of murder, for example. Should they be treated differently to their male peers? Well, there's still the question of dealing with what the underlying problems are, for example, should they be treated differently to their male peers? Well, there's still the question of dealing with what the underlying problems are. But in terms of whether they're in prison or not, then the same, exactly the same arguments apply to men. If their preferences are serious, then clearly people, there will be prison sentences and some of them will be long prison sentences.

Let me turn back to you, Lily. You have something called conditional cautions. Can you explain that? Yeah, yeah, of course. So across our Manchester and our South London community services, we work in the diversion, sort of what is what we call it, the preventative model. So it's trying to pick up and support women at the point where they start getting involved or in touch with criminal justice sort of agencies. So conditional cautions is where a police officer would arrest someone and say, actually, if they didn't have this need, that this wouldn't have happened. So, for example, if they didn't have access to the right funds, they had the right income, they wouldn't have gone and shoplifted. So let's not charge them, let's discharge them

to the local women's centre to address what that need is and try and get them support that they need to try and stop this from happening again. Effectively, what we then do is contact the woman, see if they would like our support and see what we can offer them. Basically, that whole system is approached back to women's offending, but trying to catch them at the early intervention point to avoid the criminalisation of women. Do you have specifics on how effective that is? Yeah, absolutely. In our Manchester branch particularly, we have a whole systems approach across Greater Manchester. We work with partner agencies across the whole of Greater Manchester. So if a woman is picked up in Tameside, but they so happen to live or have connections back to Manchester, that a police officer could just throw them a conditional caution and ask them to come to all in the centre that is local to them

which would be us in Manchester the whole point is that rather than it just being you know a postcode lottery of we cannot offer you that support but no I'm wondering more if you know the difference between somebody who goes to prison or somebody who gets a conditional caution on a re-offence, for example? So from our perspective, from what I've seen, it's very, very few numbers that we get back around on a probation order or back into prison if we've worked with them and engaged with them at a conditional caution point.

I couldn't give you exact numbers, but I know from the nuance of working in Manchester particularly, that actually the numbers are very, very, very small. And more often than not, women just want to talk about things and they just want to talk through what's happened, which allows them space to work through what their root cause of the situation that's involved them to be involved in criminal justice, rather than the risk of getting them re-back involved because they've not had the chance to work through their circumstances. Interestingly, Lily Blundell is Head of Community Programs at the charity Women in Prison.

Dayman Owrys, who's the Chief Inspector of Prisons until 2010 and until last year, the National Chair of the Independent Monitoring Boards. I do want to read a statement from Shabana Mahmood, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, who said, For women, prison is not working. It locks up non-violent offenders who are often victims themselves. It forces them into prisons that are desperate

places where self-harm is far too high. It breaks homes and passes damage down generations. The last government left office with the female prisoner population rising. That is why this government is launching a new Women's Justice Board tasked with reducing the number of women going to prison and ultimately reducing the number of women's prisons in the country.

I do also want to mention, if you've been affected by the issue of self-harm, please do visit our website for more details on support. And later this month, we'll be hearing from children and families who are impacted when women are sent to prison. We'll hear what life is like for children and young people, sometimes left to cope alone when their parents receive custodial sentences.

And also from the relatives and carers who are suddenly made responsible for those children that are left behind. Lots of messages continue to come in about... Yes, pianos. Let me see. When we were young, my brother and I would phone random people from the phone book and i would say this is great i'm reading this sight unseen by the way i would say this is my brother's latest piano piece and he would play and they always listened to the whole

piece just love that i'm a pianist um and the piano has brought so much to my life. I don't know where I'd be without it. I have five pianos at home, an acoustic, a digital baby grand, a digital stage piano, a smaller digital piano and a fold away portable practice. We have a lot of piano players in our audience. I want to turn to my next guest who's in studio with me, who is someone in an industry that might sound like science fiction, but it is not as we move from music to science to music. Dr. Beth Shapiro is an evolutionary biologist who specializes in the genetics of ice age animals and plants, and she works with ancient DNA. So from animals like

the woolly mammoth or the dodo in the field of, I love this word, de-extinction and species preservation. I suppose my question would be, could we see a woolly mammoth again? But Beth and her work feature in a new documentary, a fascinating one. It's called A Hunt for the Oldest DNA

and it's premiering in the UK today, which means I have Dr. Shapiro with me, which is wonderful. But maybe we'll, I think you called yourself as well, what, a molecular paleontologist? Have I made that up? You've made that up, but I also called myself a paleogeneticist, which is the word that I made up. I know, I love it.

But evolutionary biologist, I guess, is the scientific term. What is it exactly? Well, I say paleogeneticist. I'll start there so we can break it down. Paleo just means old and geneticist means I study DNA. So I study old DNA or ancient DNA. Now, I've heard ancient DNA in the documentary described as a time machine to the past. Fair description?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So when an organism dies, it dies and obviously all of its cells are still there and the DNA is in those cells. But right after death, that DNA starts to break down into smaller and smaller and smaller fragments. But if this animal happens to die somewhere where it's cold, that decay process is slower. Just like when you stick something in a freezer compared to in a fridge or leaving it out on your countertop. So my job is to go out into these cold places. Really cold places. Well, I mean, yes. Where it used to be colder.

That's another story. Indeed, we can get there. Yeah, we will. And we get pieces of remains, fossil bones of things like a mammoth or a horse or a bison, things like that, and cut out a little piece. And from that, we can extract DNA and reconstruct their whole genome from these tiny little, tiny puzzle pieces, if you might imagine. And there's a lot that comes up in the documentary. But what about that? You are now the chief science officer at Colossal Bioscientists. And as I read on one website, let me see,

its landmark de-extinction project will be the resurrection of the woolly mammoth, or more specifically, a cold resistant elephant with all the core biological traits of the woolly mammoth. It will walk like a woolly mammoth. It will look like one. It will sound like one. But more importantly, it will be able to inhabit the same ecosystem previously abandoned by the mammoth's extinction. Is that really in your future? Well, I like to say that it depends on what you're willing to accept as a woolly mammoth. So if we all go back to Jurassic Park, which is obviously where our brains go when we think about it.

And I think, I have to put my hand up here, I never watched Jurassic Park. But I know what the story is, that basically they get dinosaur DNA and recreate the dinosaurs and they begin to walk the earth. That's right. Yes, we can't do that. There's dinosaur DNA and recreate the dinosaurs and begin to walk the earth. That's right. Yes, we can't do that. There's no DNA in dinosaur bones. So we can't recover. Why is there no DNA? They're too old. So the oldest DNA that we've been able to recover so far, and this is revealed in the documentary, the oldest DNA that we've been able to recover from a bone so far is probably somewhere between one and two million years old. Dinosaurs went extinct more than 65 million years ago. Dinosaurs went extinct more than

65 million years ago. So just... That's not happening. It's not happening, no. But we can get DNA from mammoths, especially from animals that lived several thousand years ago. When were mammoths around? The last mammoths to be alive lived until around 3,000 years ago. Okay. Yeah, on Wrangell Island. And there was a population in an island in the Bering Sea in between Alaska and Siberia that lived until around 6,000 years ago. That is an interesting part of the world. Yeah, it's very interesting. I've been there several times.

There are many mosquitoes. But mosquitoes, there's also things about mosquitoes' DNA. Mosquitoes in amber that you cannot retrieve the DNA? That's right. We can't get those either. No, it turns out you can't do that. Although the mosquitoes that arees in amber that you cannot retrieve the DNA? That's right. We can't get those either. No, it turns out you can't do that. Although the mosquitoes that are preserved in amber look really well preserved, amber is a really poor place for DNA survival because microbes can get into it

and they'll just chew up all that DNA and it disappears. There's a lot to talk about here. I need to run through some things. So we're looking back all these years and I'm wondering, as we look back, say millions of years, can it help us looking forward when it comes to climate change, for example? Yeah. So let's go back not millions of years, but maybe tens of thousands of years. And there's a lot of DNA that we can recover from tens of thousands of years ago, even directly from sediments that are that age, which is really cool, because it means that we can recover from tens of thousands of years ago, even directly from sediments that are that age, which is really cool because it means that we can study not only the animals, but also the plants and the microbes that were around. And we can reconstruct entire ancient

ecosystems. And we can do this through time periods where there was rapid climate change at that point. And we can ask questions like, what makes some communities more resilient or resistant to change and extinction in the face of this rapid climate change? And hopefully our goal there is to learn something from the past that we can apply to present day populations and communities and ecosystems to make more informed decisions about how to use the limited resources that we have at our hands to help protect things as we move toward a really rapid changing habitat now. Yeah, and I suppose that what we might be looking at has already happened, but there weren't 8 million humans. That's right. And if we want a future... 8 billion humans, yeah, on the earth at that time. Exactly.

Let me talk about you as a woman in your field. You have a colleague, Eske Bilverslev, who is in the documentary, and he spoke about having a successful career in science. But he talked about having to win and take risks. He made it sound so highly competitive and very stressful. Would that be about right? And what is it like as one of the few women

in particularly the field of ancient DNA? When I started, it is funny because in the documentary, Eska points out that I was the only woman who was working in this field at the time. And, you know, it didn't even really strike me to be the case until I saw that documentary. Wow. I think obviously women face different challenges in careers and in higher education and academia. I was at Oxford in the early 2000s. And really, there were few women in positions of power at the time, but there were some incredible role models there.

And I honestly, I think I just didn't think about it. I pushed through the barriers that were there. And I tried to create opportunities now for women in my lab and now in the company that just looks the same as the opportunities that I have. And I think I was always willing to take a risk. And so that was really how I ended up where I am. Is that what you would recommend to people who are saying, oh, evolutionary and liquor biologist, that sounds like what I want to do? Well, yes, absolutely. Just don't be afraid to take risks.

If you look at the company where I am now, and I've left my academic role about six months ago to be the chief scientist at Colossal. And make a woolly mammoth. And make a wo woolly mammoth and Colossal has women leaders. I am the chief scientist, all of the species leads, we're recreating three different species, mammoths, dodos and thylacines. They're all women. And we are running this company as a really amazing way to give people the power to move into the future. And lots of women also in the hunt for the oldest DNA, which will soon be available on the BBC iPlayer. Dr. Beth Shapiro, thank you so much.

Tomorrow, we have Lucy Worsley will be speaking to Kylie Pentlow all about Lady Swindlers. That's going to be wonderful. And here's the last piano message. Let me see. I took my grade two piano exam in 1962. And after retiring, I took grade three piano in 2015. Go, Jane.

I will talk to you again next week. Thanks so much for your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. It's Kim Cattrall, and I want to tell you about my new podcast, Central Intelligence, from BBC Radio 4 about the birth of the CIA. Secrets, lies, covert operations. The inside story from a real-life agency legend.

Starring Ed Harris, Johnny Flynn and me, Kim Cattrall. To hear Central Intelligence and many other great drama podcasts, search for Limelight on BBC Sounds. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.