Woman's Hour - Women and science fiction; Say She She

Episode Date: August 14, 2024

Throughout the summer we’ve been taking a look into the world of 'genre fiction' – the women who read it and the women who write it. In the latest of this series, we’re going to discuss science fiction. Seen by some as 'a genre for men,' there are lots of women authors and readers who think otherwise. Bafta-nominated screenwriter and playwright, Moira Buffini, who's written The Dig and TV series Harlots, joins Nuala to discuss her debut science fiction novel, Songlight. Larissa Lai, science fiction novelist and professor at University of Toronto, with two novels shortlisted by the Otherwise Award joins Nuala to discuss the genre.Say She She is a female-led band based out of Brooklyn, New York led by Piya Malik Sabrina Mileo Cunningham, and Nya Gazelle Brown. Their sound has been described as ‘disco-delic with dreamy harmonies’, and they have been crowned one of BBC 6 Music’s Artists of The Year. They are now in the UK to perform at Camp Bestival and All Points East. They join Nuala McGovern to discuss their music, their influences, and the issues that inspire their tracks.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. We'll talk about protests being held by women in India in just a moment. But also today, have you had a baby with tongue tie? Did you do anything about it? We're going to have a discussion about the debate over the procedure to release the frenulum, that piece of skin under the tongue that's coming

up. Also the next instalment in our genre fiction series, science fiction fan, it is your turn. Traditionally, it's been considered a male-dominated section, specifically white males. We're going to take a look at why that is and what is changing. And if you've just been waiting to expound the joy of science fiction and who we should be reading, now is your chance. You can text the programme

84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for WhatsApp, for a message or a voice note, that number 03700 100 444. I am becoming a fan of science fiction. I am already a fan of the band Say She She. They will be here to talk about their feminist, discodelic soul. So get ready for a new earworm to accompany you throughout your day. But let us begin in India.

Tens of thousands of women in Kolkata and actually across West Bengal are expected to participate in a Reclaim the Night march beginning at midnight tonight in India and demanding the independence to live in freedom and without fear. They're the words of the organisers. This has happened after the half-naked body of a 31-year-old female trainee doctor bearing extensive injuries was found by her colleagues in one of India's oldest hospitals last Saturday morning. To explain the situation further, I'm joined by our BBC Hindi correspondent, Salman Ravi, who's based in the city of Kolkata.

Welcome. If you could, can you tell us any more details about what we know about this young doctor? So it all happened on 9th of August when this doctor was on a night duty and she was on a call. And after her duty, she was tired because she had worked for almost 20 hours and after that she went to the seminar room to take rest. Seminar room, why? Because there are no rooms exclusively for women doctors there to take rest or they don't have separate toilets. So that is the reason that she had gone to the seminar room to take some rest. But in the morning, the local staff, they found her body inside that room. And there was all blood all around. And they raised an alarm and officials, they came there.

And then the police arrived and they took the body for post-mortem. And post-mortem report, it revealed a gruesome murder because the body bore multiple injury marks. Like her eyes were bleeding because her specs were smashed. She was a 31-year-old doctor. And even there were some substances and outside objects which were put into her private parts. Her legs were broken, hands were broken, the neck was broken. So it was a very gruesome murder and that is the reason that the police suspected

that it could have been a rape case. This is, I just want to also of course just say to our listeners, I realise a lot of these details are graphic and can be distressing as well. But Salman, a suspect has been arrested I believe, a suspect has been arrested, I believe.

The suspect has been arrested, but he is a member of the civil volunteer force, and that is a force that's kind of an auxiliary police, which supports the police, which helps the police from time to time. And he was posted in the same hospital outside there's a police check post and he was there but how the police they uh could trace him out was through the cctv camera footage but the cctv camera was not installed near that seminar room where the doctor was taking rest they could only gather the images from the main gate the cctv camera footages and i understand this is of course a case that is ongoing and this person is a suspect at the moment. But the response is quite breathtaking

when you see the number of women in particular that have mobilised. Tell me a little bit about what you're hearing and seeing. There have been a spate of protests as soon as the news broke out, as soon as the colleagues found out that this trainee doctor was dead. So initially the protests started from the Archikar Medical Hospital, which is one of the leading hospitals in the country. And later on, these they spread across the country

among the doctors where they stopped work in Calcutta the government hospitals they are completely dysfunctional and so is in the entire state of West Bengal where the doctors have stopped work in protest the case has now been handed over by the high court to the prime investigating agency the central bureau of Investigation, because the students, they alleged that they have no faith in the investigation because they accused the Kolkata police and the investigating officers of hiding many facts and trying to suppress the case. And because the parents of the girl, they were not allowed to see the body. And they have alleged, actually, that they were not allowed to see the body. And they have alleged, actually, that they were not allowed to see the body. And then they were made to wait for a long time.

And even the post-mortem report was not shared with them. So they say that this is the thing which raises doubts on the role of the local police. And that is why the case has been handed over by the court to the cbi to the cba which which you mentioned that higher authority um and of course i don't have a response even from local police or indeed from that family as we speak to you salmon who our correspondent who is in calcutta but you know when i was reading about this, sadly, it was reminding me, as it might many of our listeners, of that case that was a student, ideally an eradication, of sexual assault and also rape and murder in these particular cases. But here we are 12 years later, and I'm just wondering what people are saying.

Do they feel there's been progress since 2012? No, actually, the people who have been speaking to me, because throughout I've been covering these protests and I was covering this case. The people, they say that and especially the women folk and the women doctors and the nursing staff, they said that earlier one of the doctors that I spoke to really made sense. And she said that earlier when I used to step out of home to come to the hospital, my parents were very worried because they thought that traveling is some very risky thing for a woman or a girl. And as soon as I reached my hospital, they used to be relaxed.

Okay, fine, now you're in a safer environment. But then now she says that when I'm in the hospital and such kind of incident has happened in a hospital which is supposed to be so secure for women where there are so many patients with so many relatives of the patients and then this case has happened over here her parents are really very scared when she steps out to come to the hospital she said because salman something you said at the beginning of our conversation you mentioned there was no bathrooms for women. There was no place for her to go to be safe, that she went to this seminar room instead.

How can that be? Most of the hospitals here in West Bengal, where I am, this is the capital of West Bengal, in most of the hospitals, especially the government-run hospitals, there is no separate arrangement for women doctors or the women nursing staff for taking rest. There are no separate arrangement for women doctors or the women nursing staff for taking rest. There are no separate restrooms. So they have to manage in this way only. And even there is no security. The police, they might be on the road, but for the hospital staff, there is no security at all, and especially for women. And they have got very odd hours of

call, like the doctors, they receive call late in the night when a patient is serious. So the women doctor has to perform her duty to reach there. But then she's very vulnerable and especially crime against women has been rising a lot in West Bengal. The National Crime Records Bureau data, which has recently been released, says that more than 35,000 cases has been registered on crime against women in one year. And that includes 1,111 rape cases in the state, which is a part of India, a state in India. So you can imagine the situation in the rest of the country where women are very vulnerable. Even in the society, Bengal was considered to be a much better society and much better place for women.

But here also the crime... And I should mention as well that women make up nearly 30% of India's doctors. And some of the figures you will quote there, I'll add another few, that the official data, this is for India,

reveals a 4% increase in crimes against women with over 20% of these incidents involving rape and assault. But what is happening tonight? What do you expect to see? Tonight, because most of the women and girls, irrespective of their profession, they are very scared because it's just not that it's about a doctor being raped and murdered in a hospital. There are so many offices where women work and they have odd shift hours. So the women, they are very scared and they are very much scared to step out of the house,

especially during odd hours. So the women organizations and civil society women, they have actually organized a protest called Reclaiming the Night. So the night is ours. This is the slogan that they have given. So all the women, they will step out tonight. This will be around 1155 because at midnight of 14th of August, India was granted independence from the British rule. So it's a symbolic gesture as well as a slogan to reclaim the night because women are very scared. So in order to instill confidence in the women. So these protests have been organized and these protests will take place later in the night today.

Salman Ravi, based in Kolkata, our BBC Hindi correspondent. Thank you very much. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard during that interview, you can find links of support on the BBC Action Line website. Tongue tie, some of you already getting in touch about that. My midwife said

that the tongue is an organ that grows a lot, and so she was sure that my son would not need to be cut. I was talking about the frenulum, new word for me, that bit, skin that attaches your tongue to the bottom of your mouth. It did not interfere with breastfeeding and in fact probably helped. No issues through school. He's 24 and the midwife was right. That's Isabella. Science fiction. Here's Alice. In a white male dominated genre, Octavia Butler stands out as a black woman, but her science fiction is some of the best I've read.

She stands out for her skills to me. So keep them coming. Sci-fi nerds, this is your chance. 8-4, 8-4-4. Why am I talking about science fiction? Because throughout the summer, we have been taking a look into the world of genre fiction. Why women read, what they're reading,

who are the women that are writing, what they're reading. And in the latest of this series, yes, it is science fiction. Some have seen this as a genre for men. Lots of female authors and readers who think otherwise. Some who are getting in touch. And to discuss this, I've got BAFTA-nominated screenwriter and playwright and director and actor, and I could go on. Moira Buffini in front of me.

Many of you will know her for her Netflix movie, The Dig. Loved that. And the TV series, Harlots. She has decided to take the plunge into novel writing and has written her first science fiction novel, Songlight. It's out later this month.

And we also have with us science fiction novelist and professor at the University of Toronto with two novels shortlisted by the Otherwise Award. That is Larissa Lye joining me from Toronto. Good morning to both of you Award. That is Larissa Lye joining me from Toronto. Good morning to both of you. Good morning, Larissa.

Good morning. Good morning. Good morning, Moira. Good morning. Great to have both of you with us. Now, let me begin. I think I need to get into the term science fiction first. How would you describe it, Moira? I would say it's a fiction that imagines a future. What about you, Larissa? Agree with that? Oh, gosh, sure. But then I would also add, you know, that science fiction tends to be about

science, about technology, about the world to come. About the world to come is interesting. I was listening to this interview with Ursula K. Le Guin, who was also this revered science fiction and fantasy writer. And she talked about science fiction as a metaphor for life on Earth. That's a wonderful definition. That's really fantastic. And I kind of think science fiction, mine is a low tech future in this. So I think it's about in some futures we have lost science. And yet I still think if you set something 5000 years in the future, the act of imagination is is is still falls into that genre.

What do you think, Larissa? I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? Sure. What do you think about that as science fiction, as a metaphor for life on Earth? Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the great powers of science fiction is its capacity to, you know, estrange us a little bit from our sense of our everyday life. But in the work of estrangement, sometimes we can see our own lives more clearly because things aren't quite so close to home. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean.

I think it's why I've probably shied away from it. I'd be curious what my listeners think that that feeling of estrangement can be kind of uncomfortable in some ways. And it's why people love it as well. But Maura, you've had a successful career as a screenwriter and many other roles, as I mentioned.

Why did you decide to move into science fiction? I couldn't tell this story any other way. And it's a story I've always wanted to tell. Can we give a quick synopsis? I would say set in a post-apocalyptic dystopian future where an advanced form of telepathy has emerged as we followed the lives of two young heroines. Yeah, yeah.

This is a story about female friendship. But the young women in question live several thousand years in the future in a kind of civilization that's re-emerging after a mass extinction event. And it is a very repressive civilization yes yes it is there's first wives there's second wives but not in the way that we think of them in this world it's so so and i think why uh i i think i wanted to tell this story because i desperately don't want this future to happen and i think that's why science fiction draws a lot of writers. It's like, let's not have this future. And I think by the act of writing it, it's kind of like saying, let's not go down this path that we seem to be teetering on the brink of.

So is your inspiration things you're seeing around you? Yes, always, always. Wow. So is your inspiration things you're seeing around you? We've been making progress towards equality and inclusion. That, you know, there have been forces of terrifying misogyny at work in the world. And it's having a look at those and just having a look at what it's like to live. And it's a world I've portrayed as being in the future, but there are many places in the world now that are equally as repressive for women. I think I see you nodding there, Larissa.

Oh, sure. I mean, we're really living in a rough time now, aren't we? Thinking about the item that we just heard just before this segment. Yeah. And with that, because when I come to you, Larissa, you wrote your first novel in 1995.

It was mythology rooted book. Since then, you've delved into several subgenres. But your novel, The Tiger Flu, that was 2018, was a return back to the science fiction genre. And we were hearing why Moira dived into it. But why do you keep returning back as a writer and a reader well interestingly it's both things I'm afraid of the world that might come but I'm also hopeful about it so the tiger flu was really me kind of trying to think about

would it be would a world be possible where women have more power, where our lives are better? Could there be spaces, could there be ways in which a world might come about where women are doing better than they are in the present day? But of course, the difficulty as I began to write that narrative is we have our own ways as women, don't we? Of causing one another trouble and of being perhaps not so great all the time. And so then I became very interested in the dynamic, the things that occur among women, perhaps because of the inheritances of patriarchy, perhaps just things that are endemic to being women.

And so that novel is an exploration of that. Yeah, it's very hard to know what a world would be like of women in the way you describe, but to try and imagine it without the patriarchy and the tentacles of that that remain. Yes, this was what I found

as I began to write the novel, that the tentacles remain and, you know, the difficulties of power and balance. It's very difficult to imagine a world without power and balance. But then the ways the tentacles remain and, you know, the difficulties of power and balance. It's very difficult to imagine a world without power and balance. But then the ways the tentacles reach in do change if the demographics change. With Songlight, I felt immediately it was about power I was reading about, Moira. Yes, it is. It is. But I mean, just picking up on what Larissa said about hope,

I think that is the other reason I've decided to write about the far future. Is that there is a sense of a continuum of life going on, of hope. And also, I think writing about a situation, a society that is slightly worse than your own. Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I hear where you're going. I think what you're saying is if we can imagine a kind of act of resistance and rebellion in that society, we can imagine one in our own. And I think that's what my story is about.

It is about power. It's about how do the powerless find their power. And it's about resistance and rebellion. You know, we're speaking about science fiction. This is Woman's Hour. And it is a genre that has often been considered male dominated, as I mentioned, and even white male dominated, which interests me as it intersects with that idea if science fiction is talking about, you know, future and power and I suppose the power balance and where it lies and imagining these different worlds. Why do you think, Moira, it's always been seen as a more male-dominated,

both reader and writer? I think it's one of the many, many things in this world that have been dominated by white men. And indeed, all the first writers I read, John Wyndham, Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Asimov, that's who I read. And I think it's wonderful that it is now more diverse. I was very inspired. You've already mentioned Ursula K. Le Guin. I was very inspired by her. I read her novels when I was young and found them simply amazing. And the same with Marge Piercy, who wrote Woman on the Edge of Time,

which is an incredible story set in a bizarre future. And, of course, the inestimable Margaret Atwood, who I think is just such an inspiration. I think The Handmaid's Tale is an amazing futuristic dystopian novel. And it's often about traditional female expectations that a patriarchal society would have on them. I'm just thinking of The Handmaid's Tale, for example. And I know, Larissa, you put two thumbs up when she talked about Margaret Piercy,

but you are very interested too in those questions of reproduction and cloning. Do you want to expand on why? Oh, sure, yes. I like to say that my novels are all very gooey. Thinking about the movie Alien, you know, with all the goo kind of coming, because that's the part I think that the boys are really not into, right? They want the rockets and the spaceships and the computers and all the machines. My fiction has machines too, but they're very biological. So those elements

of science that I'm interested in are things like cloning and manipulation of DNA, diseases of various kinds. I guess that's my way of being feminist, you know, that I think that these sort of the biological liquid things the capacities for um for mutation and transformation and and change through the body um those are the things that i just i'm drawn to and find really interesting and then and then obviously questions of reproduction so i guess sort of thinking about uh for sure le guin actually pier, too, all those second wave feminist spec fiction writers that were really thinking about, well, you know, if we're going to be feminists, and we're going to find a way to be stronger in the world, does it mean we need to be more like men? And if so, then what happens to our capacity for reproduction? And so they became

very kind of interested in those questions of where a baby is going to come from, if there's something oppressive about the practice of giving birth birth and then there's a huge debate around that so my work follows up those questions like 30 years on well more like 50 years on and thinking about all the capacities that we've had in the intervening 50 years all the new reproductive technologies, right? And other ways of self-reproducing as well that aren't about birth at all. So like cloning, when the cloning thing came around, that was really, really compelling for me. And it can be a time with some of the aspects you've talked about there, Larissa, a source of great hope for certain people, other people considering it dystopian.

What do you think it is, Moira, about dystopian fiction in particular when it comes to science fiction? Do you think it's a particular draw for women? I do. I think currently I do, I really do. Just looking back at the incredible success of Suzanne Collins' The Hunger Games a few years ago, I think that inspired a lot of women. And I think if you can, again, it's like imagining change in's Up and, you know, some of the movements we've seen. Like Me Too and...

Yeah. And I think, I sort of think that's such an interesting thought that dystopian fiction feeds back into the real world in a very active, dynamic way. Suggestions coming in, 84844. Nicola Griffith's Ammonite, written in the 90s, I think, takes us on an adventure of survival and rebirth into a different, fascinating world. It's a great read. That one coming in from Joe in Sussex. Thanks very much. Let me turn to you, Larissa. Are there enough women writing science fiction now? Never. Never.

There's always room for more. I think there's always room for more. I do think things, you know, they have improved since those days of the kind of boys' own adventure, hero's journey type of science fiction novel.

There's some wonderful women writers writing right now. I mean, I think of like N.K. Jemisin, for instance, has also been very successful. My good friend Nalo Hopkinson, Hiromi Goto. There's more out there, but I think there's always room for more. I think it's such a capacious genre. And, you know, insofar as we're thinking about dystopia, I think the utopian side is also really necessary to do that dreaming work, right? We can't have the future that we want unless we know what it's going to look like. And who better place to do that than women? Or really anybody who's been oppressed, because we have the capacity to see things, right? That mainstream people, those with more power in their hands, can't even necessarily see.

Do you think you'll stay with it, Moira? I have loved writing this novel. I've absolutely loved it. And there's two more. Oh, so it's a trilogy. It's the first of a trilogy. So yes, I'm in this. I've just finished writing the second one

and expanding the world and thinking deeper into it. I've absolutely loved it. And I'm certainly here for the duration. And I, yeah, who knows? Who knows where it'll take me? It's very exciting. Who knows?

I could almost see it actually as well as I was reading it. I want to thank you both. So interesting. You have piqued my interest. I've started reading you more. I'm going to move on to you Larissa next wonderful to have both of you on

as we talk about genres of fiction this one was science fiction and 84844 if you want to throw in some more recommendations that you really feel

we should be talking about Larissa Lai and Moira Buffini thank you both so much now I want you to keep your ideas

coming in for listener week I know we have some lined up I was just thinking actually about reproduction there Thank you both so much. Now I want you to keep your ideas coming in for Listener Week. I know we have some lined up. I was just thinking actually about reproduction there. We have one on surrogacy that will be coming up. And it's just one of the ideas. Tummies, how's your relationship with your belly? As mine leans on my legs.

We're going to talk about that as well. We also are taking your ideas because we're going to be slotting them in next week. It's Monday to Friday, 84844 at BBC Woman's Hour is another way of getting in touch or you can email us through our website.

Maybe there's something that you feel we should really be talking about next week. So it is your chance and your turn to get them in. Thank you so much for all of you that have contributed

already as well. Listener Week starting next. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Monday. Now, I want to turn to something that many of you are getting in touch about this morning already. It's tongue tie. It's a condition in babies where the strip of skin that connects the tongue to the mouth, you know, underneath your tongue, when it's tighter than usual, and it can make it difficult for a baby to latch on to its mother's breast to feed. There can also be other complications with being tongue tied. There's a procedure that snips that tissue underneath the tongue and releases it

and gives it more movement. According to the NHS in England, 22,000 babies were diagnosed in hospitals in 2023, up about 19,000 in 2017, from 19,000 in 2017, I believe. The Sunday Times has been hearing from some mothers, you might have read this article, who feel that the procedure actually did nothing for their babies

and how they even felt pressured to have it done. Others instead very happy with it. To talk about it all, I'm joined by Dr. Gudi Singh. Welcome, doctor. Good to have you with us. Maybe you can describe a little bit more about the tongue tie, how it possibly impacts a baby about what they can or cannot do. Good morning. Yeah. So look, as a paediatrician, I think the first thing to say is that we are born in all sorts of shapes and sizes,

and none of us are the same. And one of the bits of us that can be different is exactly that tissue that is underneath the tongue and attaches it to the floor of the tongue. Now, in medicine, we call it the frenulum. And the frenulum can be shorter, tighter, it can attach to the tip of the tongue. And as you described, it reduces our ability to move and can have an effect therefore on feeding and potentially speech development later on. As a pediatrician, I can tell you it's common, about one in 10 babies might be affected by it. But only about half of those would probably need division, or what we call a phrenotomy, which is basically a posh surgical term to say snipping of that tissue under the tongue.

But we reserve it usually for those cases that are quite pronounced, so where there's quite a limitation in function. And how do you know that? So usually the reason that it even comes to light is when parents complain of things, as you described, having difficulty of latching of the baby, not attaching either to the breast or the bottle or feeding taking a long time or sometimes as a kind of a clicking noise with feeding. And obviously the effect of not feeding well would be poor weight gain or struggling to put on weight. So with this however some of the testimonies that I have been reading feel they went through the procedure they were kind of under pressure had just had the baby a day or two or maybe a little bit more baby wasn't latching and they were offered this procedure at times taking it but

not always convinced that it made any difference. Yeah, and it's really worrying to me to hear that that's what's happening. Look, breastfeeding is really tough at the best of times. The first few weeks of being a new parent are isolating, they're physically draining, and it's when people are at their most fragile. So putting pressure on people at this time, either by making them feel like they're a bad parent or by trying to convince them to have a kind of procedure that they may not know a lot

about is not really good medicine. And it doesn't really treat people like grownups. And there are actually two problems with this from my perspective. So the first thing is that, and I just want to reiterate this, most tongue ties are harmless. And the evidence for actually needing to snip them or to have this operation is it's kind of it's debatable there is good evidence for a frenulotomy and i will say that it is safe so the NICE guidelines the national institute for clinical excellence in the uk advises us as doctors that it is a safe procedure but the fact is that the studies are really small when it comes to when this should be offered to whom and which techniques should be offered, right? Sorry, no, please continue. Well, I was going to say the second problem is that even if you're being told that actually a tongue-tied division is something that you should seek,

availability in the NHS is quite patchy. Now, I've heard of some cases where some parents are waiting up to six weeks to get that procedure, which is not ideal if your concern is that your baby's not feeding. And so, you know, in this gap, private practitioners are very happy to capitalize on that anxiety. And the truth is that for most people, they can't afford the hundreds of pounds that it would cost to have this procedure. And so not only are you feeling guilty, but you're also worsening inequalities in the system. I suppose with this, though, if people are listening and there are a number that have got in touch and I will read their messages in just a moment um but it's kind of putting the onus on parents to try and make a decision where it's not very clear what the exact outcome might

be I mean I'm just wondering what is the advice go and speak to their own GPs about it if they're worried I mean I think this is the thing right you know I'm a wondering, what is the advice? Go and speak to their own GPs about it if they're worried? I mean, I think this is the thing, right? You know, I'm a doctor who happens to be a feminist, but medicine is still patriarchal. It's still hierarchical. And it's really not good at listening to and respecting the voices of women. And I think that especially comes to reproduction and breastfeeding is no different.

I would say that, of course, the most important thing here to do is to trust yourself, respect yourself enough to listen to your own concerns. So you always know when something's not right. And absolutely, you need to be able to seek advice. But I'll tell you this, that, you know, we put inordinate amounts of pressure on women to breastfeed. And this results in huge amounts of guilt, low self-esteem. But if breast is really best, then why in this country have we not invested in it? What this country needs is universal access to high quality, freely available breastfeeding advice and support through the first few weeks and months of every newborn's life. Because what we want is for people to be empowered. We don't want to feel like we're being told off when we're at our lowest. And if we had that i think we'd be in a different

situation because the fact is as you said having the tongue tie release is no guarantee of success with breastfeeding and the goal here is just to have a healthy happy relationship between um the mother the nursing mother and and the baby and actually what i would say is that given that the jury is still out about whether the procedure is the right thing or not there is no right and wrong and you have to figure this out for yourself. And that's OK. Let us take some of the messages that are coming in. And I will say people should speak to their own doctors

if they are worried or have concerns about this particular aspect. Lots of stories coming in. This is something also, when I looked at it, I think that would be done 400 years ago. And it seems to some ways kind of go in and out of fashion as I looked over the past few decades as well. Let me see, here's one. 30 years ago I took

my six month old daughter to a hospital appointment where they picked up that she was tongue tied. I had no idea. They asked me just to hold her while they snipped the skin under the tongue with scissors then asked me to breastfeed her straight after. It was simple as that, there was no side effects. Another, Ruth in Bristol, our little boy, Zach, now six weeks old, had a tongue tie.

It was noticed at the hospital the day after he was born, but the hospital staff thought it wouldn't be an issue as he appeared to be feeding. We had a very stressful two weeks of our baby losing weight until an appointment was available for his tongue to be snipped. Only then could we start breastfeeding successfully with consistent weight gain. Another, my son had tongue tie,

but as a nurse, my son had tongue tie, but as a nurse, I noted it quite early, but it did affect breastfeeding. My first grandchild born in Australia had severe tongue tie that was missed in the hospital. My daughter-in-law struggled with breastfeeding

and had severe mastitis. As a result, she had to pump and use bottles. It caused her a lot of stress and anxiety after a difficult birth. So some of the stories that are coming up there. But I suppose anybody who is worried about their baby at the moment, I think the message I'm hearing from you

is to trust yourself. And I'm also wondering whether it's something you learned about at medical school. It's a really great question. So yeah, absolutely trust yourself. And I'll tell you why. Because as a doctor, we're not actually taught all that much about things to do with women in general, but breastfeeding in particular. You know, to think that a whole, basically a whole profession that is meant to be thinking about health doesn't know about this aspect of health, which is, let's be honest, one of the most basic and universal aspects of us, all of us that we need to go through, is quite astounding. The truth is that there's not been that much research and science into this area. And so therefore, there are huge gaps in our knowledge. And the truth is that, you know, those stories that you said of people phoning in, clearly, tongue-tied division can help in some cases, right? But also, as we've heard in reports,

it doesn't always help. And this is the point, isn't it? That every human is individual, is different. Some things might work for some people and it might not work for others. The point is that if you're being told or made to feel small and minimised by your doctor, just don't, just try and resist it. Try and find another opinion. But you know, you do deserve to be taken care of in this situation not to be told off and from the nhs what they would say is that treatment is not usually needed if the tongue tie is not causing any problems it can be just before i let you go for those that are severely tongue tied let's leave breastfeeding out of it at this moment it could cause speech problems later on is

my understanding yeah absolutely i mean the tongue is like the incredible organ and it does so much more than just sucking and swallowing when you're a baby. So of course, it could affect feeding even when you're older. And yes, speech development, which is, again, so central to us being human beings that it is something to look out for. It's not wrong for your doctor to point it out. It's not wrong for them to say, look, I think that there's a tongue tie. The question of what to do about it needs to be a conversation. And that, I think, is what's lacking often, mainly because we don't have the time to do it properly. But we are having the conversation here.

So lots of food for thought there. And I will just reiterate to speak to your doctor if you do have concerns about it. I want to thank Dr. Goodie Singh for speaking to us here on Woman's Hour and also for your messages coming in 84844 about that or science fiction or anything else you're hearing on Woman's Hour I want to bring you something from our archive Women on Wheels was a series we ran last summer, women on the cars

and motorbikes that have meant a lot to them Today, Rachel's choice of a Morris Minor bemused her friends and family but the adventures she had in it still make her smile. So why that particular car? I just passed my test when I was 27.

I always wanted to have a Morris Minor and lots of people were trying to put me off saying I was a bit unreliable and I worked with lots of people in their 50s and 60s and they said oh you don't want one of those and I researched it and I quite like the history of it I just thought I just I just want one I had a strong sense of individuality about it and I love the shape so I just went to a garage on my way home one day and just said can you get me a Morris Minor to this man? And he found one for me within a couple of weeks.

And I called it Mavis. I was just about to ask, did the car have a name? Because I had a feeling it would. So Mavis, what was Mavis like? What did she look like? Oh, well, she was pale blue, four-door saloon. The webbing had gone in the seats. So when my mum got in it once, she sort of sunk down. I think I named her really after Mavis Riley from Coronation Street. That was the Mavis that was coming to my mind because

her hair kind of had a tint of blue. Yes, yes. Quietly enthusiastic about things. That's what I thought about her. But anyway, I wanted to get it to Somerset to show my parents when I first had it. So I drove down and I broke down on the M4 quite late at night on a Friday night. And then a police car came up, sort of took me to their car and sort of looked after me. Then they drove it to the police station and called the AA so they were all looking under the bonnet and trying to just find out what was wrong with it was just a small electrical thing but they they were so kind and

they gave me a cup of tea and a piece of cake and that was like in 1997 or something and then they escorted me home to my parents and my mum looked out the window and saw the police car and me just thought what's been going on but doesn't your whole experience with mavis with the breakdown kind of sound like something from decades earlier where actually the morris minor comes from that the gentleman police officer comes to escort you and gives you tea and cake. I think it sort of made people feel quite nostalgic. And I didn't have a mobile phone in 1997 or anything. And I only just had a map, you know, in the car. So I think people just expected to help more in particularly the AA. They were fantastic. Did you get intimately acquainted with the AA? Because I know, and I love old cars as well,

they're beautiful, but man, they break down. They do, yeah. You expect to go from A to B, and you don't always get to B. You mentioned your parents are in Somerset. I believe you had another little breakdown, or Mavis did, on the way to London. Yes, I wanted to take my sister back to London from Somerset and I was driving and we were in a queue of traffic a bit near Stonehenge and I thought that the car was going to overheat. So I thought, well, I better just pull off because I was panicking. I was putting the radiator on, opening the window. My sister thought it was very amusing.

We ended up in a little lay-by and we just watched the sunset and could see Stonehenge. And then I just thought, oh, I've got some cherry bakewells in my glove compartment. I'll have those. I just thought, well, a bit of a predicament, but it's quite a nice moment. Yeah, and you wouldn't get that moment without Mavis the Morris Minor. No, it was just lovely. Do you drive a vintage car now? No, I had

it for about five years. And then when I moved to Stratford, I decided that it was too unreliable. You know, even like the wing had fallen off once on the M5 hard shoulder and I taped it back on. I thought, I can't do that with a six-month-year-old child. Right. You know, I'd got it when I didn't have responsibilities. So I thought, now I've got responsibilities

and I sold it to a young girl who actually she had saved up for one and that was her dream car as it was mine. It went to a good home. Rachel there as part of our Women on Wheels series and good old M Rachel there as part of our Women on Wheels series and good old Mavis as well.

Right, let's meet Say She She, the female-led band based out of Brooklyn, New York, led by Pia Malik, Sabrina Malayo Cunningham and Nair Gazelle Brown. They have a, this is their words, discodelic soul sound and it has been described as a glorious overload of joyful elation

and spiritual elevation those words by Mojo magazine here's another one by the Guardian infused with wonky post-disco spirit of the early 80s New York City well they have been crowned one of BBC Six Music's

artists of the year they've been touring the UK and the US now they're back in the UK for performances at Camp Festival, also All Points East. They have a UK-wide tour planned. That's November.

And they have a new single out this Friday, which is a cover of the classic, Get Ready to Dance, I Believe in Miracles. I do need to welcome Pia, Sabrina and Nair to the programme. How brilliant the Jackson sisters, I believe in miracles. Naira, welcome.

Why did you decide to cover that one? Well, it's always been a staple of our, well, not always. It's recently been a staple of our performances. We kind of close out with that one. And it's an opportunity for us to really engage and play a cult classic and get the audience excited and moving. And also, you know, we love the Jackson sisters and it's a chance to play homage to them, you know. Sounding good. Congratulations on your new single. Let me turn to you, Sabrina. How did you get together?

Oh, my gosh. Well, it's kind of a fun New York story. I think I met Pia because she moved into the apartment above me down the Lower East Side. It was an old tenement building. And I heard her singing through the floorboards. That's amazing. You're from London. But I would hear her through the floorboards too early in the morning doing her run. So we were waking each other up with the singing.

It's good that you're both good singers. It could have been like neighborly problems otherwise. Well, I think the early hours and the late nights was, you know, was compensating a little bit, but it was still a case of I can't beat him, join him, I think, from Sabrina. She definitely was like, I got to make friends with her and maybe have words about the 4 a.m. singing. And then Pia and I met actually before Sabrina and Pia met.

We met at a house party in Harlem and instantly were drawn to each other and were singing at each other. From then on, we became instant friends. Because the harmonies, they've been called dreamy. It's a very good word for it. And there are a lot of different influences that you bring to your music. Pia, how would you describe it? I mean, what's so wonderful is that there's three of us and we do have a lot of crossover,

but also completely different taste and things that we've turned each other on to. And some of them more niche and underground. There's an artist I love called Asha Putli, who's actually in her, you know, about to be in her 80s and now touring again. But for years, she was kind of just this underground, amazing Asian artist, South Asian artist, hanging out in New York in the kind of downtown scene. And she has a really cool record called Space Talk that used to play at all the David Mancuso's loft parties.

And, you know, it's everything from that to, like, the girl groups we mentioned earlier with the Jackson sisters. And I think the girl groups thing for us is super interesting because not only is the sound very influential to us, but we also take stock a lot and think, wow, our lives are very different to theirs. You know, they were led a lot by other people and we're a female led band

and we get to write our own songs in our own voice and talk about our experiences. Whereas I think, you know, even I Believe in Miracles was written by Mark Capani and often was written by other men. And yeah we take stock of that and feel kind of gratitude for the ability to us to express and still take you know reference and from the sound that they had. And Aisha Putley was also on this program with my colleague Anisha Rani. Oh your face just lit up. But why were you in New York?

Because you're a London girl, right? I am indeed. Can't take the girl. Wherever I am in the world, I'm still a London girl forever. Yes, I moved out there. I was actually born in the States, so I have dual nationality. My father's British and we were raised here from the age of two onwards. But kind of decided to go, you know,

I worked in politics for a long time. I worked in parliament. I was lucky enough to be in the office of Caroline Lucas, working with a bunch of amazing women. And then I decided to go out to New York, originally to work in a homelessness advocacy. It was this cool think tank in the middle of town in Manhattan. And, yeah, I just really loved my work, but always did music on the side

and was kind of using our voice to say things and express ourselves always with other women. And then, you know, these two are my best friends. We've known each other for so long. How much fun is that? It's just amazing. You can't get better than that. You know, it's not a given to be in a band

with just any random people. It's interesting you mentioned politics there because all three of you do bring political messages on issues that are important to you, even though it's very danceable. Sometimes not the two are put together. But I want to bring a little of your debut single, Forget Me Not. What's it about? Yes. That song was very much inspired by the Gorilla Girls. Oh, yes.

They're a feminist collective. That's correct. Yeah, they formed in the 80s in New York. And basically, it was a handful of visual artists who came together to kind of speak out about the inequalities in the art world and, you know, representation in the big galleries and institutions. And we actually, you know, were able to meet one of the founding members and she's become quite a mentor to all of us. And she, yeah, she's just told us

all these amazing stories about, you know, the work that they were doing and, you know, the community that they formed and kind of this, you know, statistic-based, you know, poster making that they were doing. Where are you from originally? I'm from upstate New York.

You're upstate New York. And what about you? I'm from D.C. You're D.C. instead, Nair. And so all coming together then in New York. I want to talk about another political issue, and that is abortion. Of course, a range of views on that

across the United States. It was made legal. That was the landmark legal ruling in 1973. You'll hear it referred to as Roe v. Wade. In 1969, there was a 25-year-old single woman, Norma McCorvey, using the pseudonym Jane Roe on the court case. She challenged the criminal abortion laws in Texas. And you've written a song called Norma.

I should say Norma has also been on this programme. Why did you feel compelled with your bandmates to write this? Well, we wrote this the day we heard, the day the leaks came out that Roe v. Wade might be overturned. We were in a writing camp at the time. And so that day on the way to write Achillean Sound with our bandmates. There was nothing else we could think of, and we were so panicked, we were so angry, we were so scared. There was nothing else we could write that day. And we started with the phrase, We Will Not Go Back,

and then the guys just kind of came in there and started coming up with a beat and a rhythm and everything. And we just decided that this is what we have to go with. We were so motivated and so, we were so motivated to use our voices. And obviously you're coming from a certain perspective, but this is a topic that has such strong feelings

on all sides in the United States and also around the world. Errmanni kind of divides half and half in the United States. I think that would have welcomed the decision. Others instead that were very much disappointed or disillusioned by it in a way perhaps that you are describing. Just to give a little bit of the background,

the US Supreme Court, which is the nation's senior legal body, they overturned the right to abortion. So it's now banned in 14 states and four have banned the procedure roughly past six weeks of pregnancy. Of course, big issue within the US election, which we are talking about on this programme as well with the various issues. And this is one of them that is at the forefront. But I want to turn back to performing as well. What's it like performing in the UK compared to performing in the US? Shall I throw that to you, Pia?

The girl with the feet in two worlds. They probably have so much more perspective. We'll get them all. We have time for all. No, honestly, obviously for me, it's so emotional because not only are my friends and family there, but it's growing up here and it's playing the venues that you've dreamed about your whole life

and being on Women's Hour. When I saw you at Cocos, because I saw you at Cocos probably last November before I knew you would be a guest, of course, and I did feel there was kind of a homecoming for you. Absolutely. And, you know, the room is just filled with so many of my, I have a huge family. They could probably fill up the whole of Coco's

themselves if they were all there. My dad has so many brothers and sisters. But, you know, it's just an amazing feeling and we're going to be playing the Roundhouse in Camden and I've grown up watching people play there and you just never think it's going to be your turn. And when it is, it's just an amazing thing to be able to do it with

your two best mates. Sabrina, what's it been like? Oh my my gosh i just love coming to london i really do not only because pia's mom hosts us graciously every time the most indian the most amazing indian food um but of course the crowds just embrace us and you know we just feel the love and we we we feed off the energy and we just we just love it it a really energetic show. What about for you, Naira? Any highlights so far? I mean, well, yeah, always playing in the UK, it has been like, can I say it? Can I say that Liverpool was kind of the...

You can totally say it. We'll have our Liverpool dance of it. That was the most live crowd I have ever experienced. What was it? Were they just raucous? They were just so generous with their energy and their spirits. And they just were so generous. And when you are on stage and you get that type of audience, like you can't help but, you know, use that energy that

you're getting and give it right back. so it becomes like this amazing exchange between the artists and the and the audience it's just it's like you get high you know it is it's it's really fun i was in the london one but you're making the case for liverpool there as well but the band i mean lots of people think say she she why the name well actually you know it's because we're really nerdy and it's a bilingual homophone. Well, of course. I'm Francophone and I actually went to university there. And so c'est chic, it's like a means it's a short term for c'est chic, which means it's chic. And it's a little kind of hat tip.

And there's one of the songs. It's a hat tip more to Nell Rogers, actually, who kind of infused some of our sound. But also he's an inspiration because he's kind of in some ways generalist in the way that he approaches writing and production. And he's just so prolific. And when we started this project, that writing element, that's such an important piece for us, you know, to be able to write our own experiences and to to develop that kind of that skill for ourselves was like the personal development thing that we were all interested in doing and we just thought he's an amazing mentor and of course you know he's had such a crazy life and faced quite a lot of adversity especially in his childhood and he's still chosen to use music to bring joy to people around the world and make people dance and make people come together and for for what it's worth I think that's such an incredible hopeful exercise and I know you're talking about hope yes with Moira we were listening in the back and it just reminded me

of the Rebecca Solnit um quote that I I just love it's like in uncertainty lies the power to influence the future and this thing comes back like how do we even with Norma how do we infuse hope for the younger women because we took things for granted and we just think that's a necessary catalyst for action. Pia Malik, Sabrina Malayo Cunningham and Nair Gazelle-Brown are say she, she. They are at Camp Bestival, Old Points East, back in London

in November. You're going to have to also go to Liverpool at some point. I want to let our listeners know the weightlifting icon Emily Campbell, fresh from the winning bronze at the Olympics, will be with Jessica Crichton tomorrow. Do join us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy show that takes history seriously. And we are back for Series 8, starting with a live episode recorded at the Hay Literary Festival, all about the history of the medieval printed book in England. Our comedian there is Robin Ince.

And then we'll be moving on to the life of Mary Anning, the famous paleontologist of the 19th century, with Sarah Pascoe. Then it's off to Germany in the 1920s for an episode on LGBTQ life in Weimar, Germany with Jordan Gray. And then we'll hop on a ship all the way back to Bronze Age Crete to learn about the ancient Minoans with Josie Long. Plus loads more. So if that sounds like fun, listen and subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.