Woman's Hour - Women and sheds, Environment Minister Rebecca Pow, Rape threat insults, Declining birth rate in China

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

Since the beginning of the pandemic, shed sellers have seen a surge in demand - especially those that can be used as home offices. And existing summerhouses and garages have been commandeered, particularly by women, as a growing number expect to be working from home. Instagram is awash with images of so-called "She Sheds". Emma discusses the attraction with Joanne Harris who writes from her shed and Gill Heriz, author of A Woman's Shed.What does it say about society when protestors threaten to rape their enemies’ mothers and daughters? This is what happened in North London at the weekend when protestors waving Palestinian flags passed through a Jewish community in Finchley. Four men have now been arrested on suspicion of racially aggravated public order offences. We look at the wider issue of how rape is threatened as a common insult, used for revenge in gangs and in the wider context of war. Emma talks to the writer and feminist activist Julie Bindel and to the historian Sir Antony Beevor.This week the government has announced a range of measures to protect the environment, from banning peat in garden centres to increasing the rate of tree planting and reversing the loss of species diversity. A 10p charge on single-use plastic bags will also come into force on Friday. But what difference will these policies - and others made in the run-up to COP26 - make to the crisis facing nature and the climate? Emma Barnett speaks to Environment Minister Rebecca Pow.Five years after China scrapped its one-child policy in favour of allowing families to have two children, the country's population growth has slumped to the lowest levels seen since the early 1960s. What's behind China's falling birth rate? We hear from Dr Ye Liu, a senior lecturer in international development at Kings College London.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise CorleyImage by Nicolette Hallett © CICO Books, taken from A Woman's Shed by Gill Heriz

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Where do you work? Where do you think best? How do you find or create a space that lets you be you and perhaps breathe a little easier in the world? If you could have such a space, how would you decorate it? Of course, we've been thinking about how we're working at the moment

and working differently with lots more people now working from home and the need for women to have both money and a room of one's own to write. That was her argument that Virginia Woolf argued for nearly 100 years ago is still as prevalent today. And we're talking about this today because the sale of sheds, or as some people call them, it seems, on social media, she sheds, quite hard to say that, has skyrocketed during lockdown. Today, I'll be joined by one woman who has three sheds

and the author and chocolate writer, you'll know her from that book, Joanna Harris, about that need and desire. But how about you? Let us know where and how you have carved out some space for yourself. Please describe it to, We are on the radio. I particularly love the story I saw on the BBC News website about the woman who'd relocated to her car to work during the first lockdown to escape the noise of her home. There was building works going on and her children brought her hot drinks and she's quite happy to continue in there for a while longer. So text us about your space, where you create it, 84844.

Do check for those costs. Social media, we're at bbcwomanshour, or email us through our website. And if you are happy to, give your telephone number and we can perhaps get you on air. Also on today's programme, the language we use. How we ended up with political protesters threatening to rape women over the weekend on the streets of Britain.

We'll explore the story behind China's falling birth rate and the Environment Minister, Rebecca Powell, is here with us to discuss the government's promises in that area. But first, in the last hour, as you've just been hearing in the news, a French court has announced that more than 2,500 women who were victims of the PIP breast implant scandal, PIP, should receive compensation. Between 2001 and 2010, the substandard implants were manufactured

by the French company Poly Implant Protez. The company was liquidated in 2010 and its founder was later given a prison sentence after it emerged that the implants were filled with cheap industrial-grade silicon, which was not cleared for human use. This case, initially brought 10 years ago, involves 540 British women who say that they have suffered long-term health effects. The German company TUV Rheinland, which awarded the safety certificates for the faulty implants, has also been sued for negligence. Let's talk now to Jan Spivey, one of the women in the case,

a co-founder of the Action Campaign that has sought accountability for the hundreds of thousands of women globally who've been affected by having these implants. 20 years ago, she was given these implants after she had a mastectomy due to breast cancer. She developed sore and aching joints, chest and back pain, fatigue, severe headaches and anxiety. Once removed, it was clear her implants had been leaking silicon into her body. Jan joins me now. Jan, how are you feeling right now? Absolutely elated. It's just tremendous news. We're a little bit in shock, to be completely frank with you. It's been such an exhausting battle to get this far. And we've had to battle this out in in france and this news just in what do

you think it might mean for for you and the women affected of course there's a the compensation side of this but i suppose there's a bigger feeling and of what it might mean for you psychologically as well well not just psychologically there's another very important aspect which um is about the regulation safe regulation of um of medical devices and that's really what this is all about because the German organization is a private company and it's got responsibilities for ensuring the safety assuring the safety of medical devices and medical devices can be anything from a knee to a hip to um you know any kind of prosthetic including mesh the surgical mesh that we hear so much about and of course breast implants too and uh and what this

says is that uh um that there has to be a new um higher standard of regulation and assurance of safety and questions whether or not a private company whose obvious motivations are profit should be responsible and certainly accountable for public duties for safety. How's your health now? Well, to be honest, I struggled quite a lot as a consequence. I struggled when I had PIP implants. There was definitely some serious impact on my health at the time, but it was difficult to associate it or link it to my implants. There was a general belief that implants were inert,

that the silicone material was inert, and they couldn't possibly be responsible for the kind of suffering and problems I was having but once it was discovered that I had PIP implants it became more obvious so for example once I had my implants removed it became obvious that when I sent my implants to be analyzed at a Milan university that PIP hadn't included a anti-bleed barrier on my implants. And that was problematic for me because during my mastectomy surgery, I had had my lymph nodes removed. And as my implants didn't have an anti-bleed barrier, as the silicone started to leak out, they started to migrate throughout my body. And I still have significant health issues relating to the silicone today.

But I've also had to undertake eight additional surgeries to deal with PIP. It's a huge honour to talk to you today. That is so great. Because you have fought for so long on this to be taken seriously. I mean, even just what you've just described. And I can't begin to imagine, you know, how you could start to process today because what a fight you fought. Yes, that's absolutely true. And I really appreciate you saying that because, you know, the fight has not just been about my personal circumstances, but for the very many women that have been impacted. And in the UK, we think it's about 50,000 women, and linked up and connected with women all over the globe. And the stories we hear, you know, of women being obstructed from care through the trivialization of their symptoms and through the vilification. You know, there's a lot of victim blaming that goes along with issues regarding breast implants, you know.

And also there's the other very extremely important issue when I had received my breast diagnosed breast cancer diagnosis I was in the hands of my surgeon and and in the the NHS and you know in in that situation you really have to trust your your health professionals to give you guidance and help. And what we've realized now is that actually breast implants do represent for some women some very significant health implications. And through our community, we've linked up with women all over the world we've realized that actually there is a myth that um breast implants and the silicone in breast implants is inert and that there is a very there is already clear evidence that uh that these implants can impact women's health in quite a

significant way perhaps we'll we'll talk about that in more detail at another point and i'd very much like you to come and do that with us and and also with some medical professionals perhaps but i understand that you've already cracked open the champagne and i don't i don't think i should interrupt that any longer but that's really fine thank you so much and uh jan and do you know do look after yourself and it's an incredible sort of story of also sisterhood, as you describe it, around the world. Jan Spivey, one of the women who has been fighting this for all these years. And I'm sure we will return to some of those themes on Womza on the programme, as we have done before, and we'll keep going with it. Now, it's been a busy week for policies that protect the planet. On Tuesday, the Environment Secretary, George Eustice, announced a range of measures, including banning the sale of peat to gardeners by 2024,

a tripling of tree planting, the creation of a new task force charged with reversing the loss of species diversity. Tomorrow, the 10-piece single-use plastic bag charge comes into force. And looking ahead to next week, the much-delayed Environment Bill will be discussed in the Commons to fine-tune the details of the rules the UK will follow now we've left the EU. Joining me is the Environment Minister, Rebecca Powell. Good morning. Good morning. I thought we could start with plastic bags, because as I say, from tomorrow, single-use plastic bags are charged at 10p. Since they've become 5p, there's been a 95%

decrease in their use. But with the law of unintended consequences, I wanted to ask you about this. A report by the Co-op shows that by removing single-use bags in their stores and others, there's been a massive surge in more plastic-heavy bags for life. So the total amount of plastic now being put onto the market has jumped by 440%. That's not working, is it? I would say that our policy is definitely working. There was something like just over 7 billion single-use plastic bags being used before we got the 5p charging. And at that time, on average, a person was taking home 140 bags a year, and that's rocketed downwards to four. And yes, some people are using bags for life. But remember, the bags for life, once they wear out, they are returnable to your store.

So and they do last much, much longer. And it's, you know, it's up to us to make sure that they last. But also other kinds of bags. I'm telling you how they're being used, though. Data suggests people in many cases are using bags for life as single use bags because they're the cheapest thing available once single use bags are available uh removed excuse me well our data isn't showing that but what i would say is the reason why we're upping the charge to 10p is because we did have a phenomenal difference when we put the 5p charge on in terms of the amount of single use plastic

bags being used we believe that if we put it up to 10p and then extend it to all shops, because actually it was only applied in supermarkets initially, now it's going to go to all the small and medium-sized shops. You know, I whip up to my wonderful local butcher and he'll always offer me a single-use plastic bag, but luckily I always have my Willow Somerset basket, so I can need one. But not everybody's the environment minister, are they? I mean, this is the point.

There's data showing, and you don't include this in your data, which is actually one of my questions, but that the average of 50 to 60 bags for life per family are being reported. I suppose, Rebecca, what I'm saying is you've talked so ambitiously and with such hope about what this government can do for the environment. Why don't you just seize the day and ban plastic bags and offer compostable alternatives? But I will, I'm going to take you up on your issue

about the bags for life. We've done our research and our research, we've done a lot of consultation on this. I haven't looked at the co-op survey, but I'm very happy to look at it. And our consultation and all the work we've done definitely shows that the number of bags in total use will rocket downwards, definitely by 21%, but probably a great deal more. But the point is the 10p charge should tackle those bags being used in the small

and medium-sized shops. That's still 80% of bags. That's still about 3 billion bags. So we definitely believe our measure will make a difference. And what I'm saying also, there are lots of different types of bags we could all use, and they don't just have to be what you call bags for life. But we are also going to look at the bags for life. We're going to do a whole review of this in a few years' time. And then we will, if we need to ban bags for life, we will.

And also we will then, at the moment, they're not required to record the numbers of bags for life that are handed out. We could request and ask that that data is also recorded. So it's all about evidence. Well, that's what I mean about including that figure. Our main aim is to cut the use of plastic. And the measures we've already brought in, I would say, for example, really bad cotton bud stirrers, plastic straws, microbeads in care products and cosmetics. So everything we're doing is moving in that direction of cutting down the use of plastic.

And you said, why don't we ban the plastic bags altogether? Well, actually, because all of our consultations showed, we consulted widely in 2019, that there's still a place for the spontaneous bag and there's still some need. So we're loath to ban it altogether. And there wasn't actually, in all of our research that we did and the research we did with the charity, there wasn't a desire for that. But obviously, we would look at that if we found things weren't going in the direction that we need to take them.

You said in a few years time, so we'll look out for that perhaps as you look at that data and perhaps ask for that data. But let's talk about where plastic is going, our plastic specifically. We learned on Monday that over half of the UK's plastic waste is being sent overseas, much of it to Turkey. Your party's 2019 manifesto said we'll continue to lead the world in tackling plastics pollution, both in the UK and internationally. So now we can't send it off to China. We're sending most of it, it seems, to Turkey. How did it feel seeing those images of our plastic on Turkey's shores? Well, we are absolutely committed to banning export of plastic to what we call non-OECD countries. That is in our manifesto and we will be bringing that forward.

We are also working really hard to tackle this export of plastic waste from our country. In fact, everything we're doing is massive measures in the Environment Bill to cut waste down right down anyway. And that includes tackling plastic particularly, because that is our biggest littered and wasted item. And so in the Environment Bill, we are bringing three measures that will have far tougher controls on waste exports. And we will also bring in mandatory electronic waste tracking because a lot of the waste that gets exported is actually illegally exported. We actually have really strict controls on our waste export. Businesses are allowed to export waste. They have to do it in an environmentally sensitive way. But what we've got to track down, crack down on is anything that's illegally exported.

But overall, we will be, we've got a whole ethos in our waste and resources strategy, moving towards less waste altogether. We want only 10% landfill by 2025. So there will be less waste. We're going to have a repair, reuse, recycle ethos. I'm just keen on the details here. You say you're going to be in this place. We're going to have a repair, reuse, recycle ethos. Just keen on the details here. You say you're going to be bringing that forward. When will we stop seeing our waste, legally or illegally,

because that's what you're in charge of, ensuring the law is followed as well as the law being what it is. When will we see that change? When will we not see packs of our baby wipes from supermarkets on Turkey's shores? Well, baby wipes is another whole issue, but baby wipes... No, the packet. I'm looking at the images that we've seen in Turkey. When will we not see that? I just explained we are absolutely cracking down on the illegal export of waste.

And in the environment, which is going through Parliament right now, it will receive of waste and in the environment which is going through parliament right now and it'll receive royal assent in the autumn so very quickly we'll be able to take much tougher controls on waste exports and we'll be able to bring in this mandatory electronic waste tracking so the the bill will receive royal assent this year and these measures are all in that bill so we absolutely mean business on tackling waste and i would say we are actually world leaders on what we're doing on waste. We're bringing through a plastic tax, which will mean that any product that doesn't, plastic product that doesn't contain 30% recycled material will have a tax put on it.

We're bringing forward and we're consulting right now on a deposit return scheme for single-use drinks containers. We're bringing forward consistent collections, which will mean that we can consistently collect the plastic so that we can reuse it much more easily. We've already brought in all those brands I named to you. And we're also introducing what's called an extended producer responsibility scheme, and it's tackling plastic first, so that anyone that makes something out of plastic will have to think

about its whole life cycle and where it's going and they'll be responsible for it. All of these things will reduce anything we need to export. Rather than just continuing to list, although it's very important to hear what the government is doing, you're not new. The Conservatives have been in power for more than a decade and these are laudable aims. Although, you know, I'm just minded to mention at this point that this country has also been described as one of the most nature depleted countries in the world. But, you know, it's all laudable aims. Some would say, perhaps cynics would say this is window dressing ahead of the issue with this, which is how much power your department actually has and some of the contradictions.

Because, of course, the government is under huge pressure post-pandemic, post-Brexit to support the economy and encourage growth. If I give you just a couple of examples, but I've actually got many more. The Environment Secretary, George Eustice, announces a massive tree planting project, a series of them. But the Department for Transport are overseeing the felling of ancient woodland for HS2. The Chancellor is investing £27 billion in road building, while the Prime Minister announces reducing carbon emissions by 78% by 2035. Who's going to win? The environment side of your cabinet, or the Prime minister and the post-Brexit pressures? Emma, I think you've got that completely wrong. If you look at what we're doing across government,

the whole issue of sustainability and a sustainable future is absolutely centre stage now. Rightly so. I'm really pleased. You know, we need to do it. And everything we do is towards after the pandemic, which has obviously been devastating, is for a green recovery, for green jobs and green skills. So we are working across all departments on a sustainability issue because we've made our commitments to net zero. They're across government. I don't understand. All the things we're doing link into it. How on earth does commissioning a new coal mine in Cumbria in 2021 that was not blocked by the community secretary. And now I know it's the subject of an inquiry, but that's not because of this government. That's because of environmentalists coming together.

How on earth did the UK's what would have been first new deep coal mine in 30 years, which also happens to be in a red wall seat that the Conservatives won from Labour. How on earth did that get through? Well, as you know, that's been called in, and I can't comment on planning issues, but we have made a commitment to phase out fossil fuel. You know that. By commissioning a coal mine. I think what this demonstrates as well, Emma, is how complicated these issues are. The environment has to be at the top of the agenda because without a sustainable future and a stable planet, we have no future.

This government, and you keep saying stop listing the measures, you have to get the policies in place to drive us in that direction. I can't have a list because we're not going to have a conversation. But also, Emma, we're bringing in, and you do touch on some interesting points about building infrastructure and so on, but we are also introducing biodiversity net gain. This will be coming in, you know, within the next year. So every development that happens, we'll have to put back 10% more nature than was there before they started.

Well, I think that's absolutely the right way we should be going. We're working to build nature recovery networks across the country. And we have yesterday announced... Should the coal mine go ahead? We're going to have a legally binding target on restoring nature. Should a coal... Sorry, Rebecca Powers, the Environment Minister, I'm not asking you to comment on planning.

I'm asking for what you think. Should a new coal mine go ahead? I'm not going to comment on planning and I'm going to stand by the fact that we're phasing out fossil fuel and that includes coal mines. Why can't you answer that question? And what we have to do is have a balance

on all of these issues. And planning, as you know, I can't openly comment on. But also... It's not about on but but also it's not about planning it's sorry it's directly about your brief do you believe as the environment minister that we should have a new coal mine many people in that area did do you you are the environment minister people in that area uh were speaking up for it on the grounds of jobs and employment what I believe we need to do is have a new green future with a lot of jobs and skills.

There's going to be such a demand for jobs to do all our tree planting, jobs working with the farmers to restore nature, jobs to produce sustainable food. That's the direction we need to go in. That's the direction this government is going in. And across departments, we are working on our sustainability for the future, whether it's in net zero for new hospital buildings or whether it is our roads, green infrastructure. So we don't need a coal mine. Is that right? We do. I'm still not going to comment on what happens over that planning commission because, you know, I can't.

That's not true. You can say what you think. That's why people get into politics. Do you think there should be a new coal mine? It's the last time I'll ask you because I've got many questions coming in. Well, why I went into politics actually was to improve the environment overall. And I believe I've arrived at just the right time. And we're starting to do that with our environment bill, with our net zero commitment and with our green recovery. And if you look at everything, I think you'll know we're driving in that direction. It's a shame that you won't answer that question. I think people would like to know what you think. Boris Johnson has insisted that British farmers can still benefit from Brexit not being thrown under the Brexit bus amid concerns

that an Australian trade deal could flood the UK with cheap meat. The Trade Secretary wants this deal and wants to give Australia tariff free access to UK markets within a decade, says it will lower costs for consumers. This is not a planning issue. Do you believe in the terms of that deal as it stands? I believe and I believe that the negotiation is going on as we speak, where we have to maintain our high standards and we have to have a level playing field. And speak where we have to maintain our high standards and we have to have a loving level playing field and we also we have to have a trade deal i think there are benefits all around for all of us and certainly we can work that out what does that mean well we could it's quite possible that we can have a deal with australia our farmers uh can can maintain

their livings it's very important we keep people in the countryside. But actually, farming is changing massively in this country with all the new future driving towards sustainability. So actually, the role of farmers delivering public goods will be much, much wider than it ever was before. Farmers are going to be doing many other things, like helping us to improve our water quality, lower flooding risk, produce sustainable

food. If I was a farmer listening, I wouldn't understand that. The President of the National Farmers Union has said that British farming will struggle to compete if zero tariff trade on lamb and beef goes ahead. Yes, I've heard what Manette Bassett has said, and actually I come from a farming family, so I've had a great many conversations about this. I'm sure you have. Yeah, I have. But equally, I believe that we have very high standards. We're respected across the world for that.

Indeed, the Australians, I know, will be crying out for some of our very high quality meat. Hang on, how is that environmentally friendly, as one of our listeners just got in touch, to be sending our meat around the other side of the world? One of the points I was going to go on to make, and it was actually made this morning by one of the Australian ministers themselves,

is that the main market for meat from Australia is actually Asia. It's not the UK. And so, you know, we won't be a target market for them to meet. Yeah, but this is the first of lots of deals. Pardon? This is the first of lots of deals. There's concern about what's going to happen with America. That's why it's so important to Boris Johnson

and to Liz Truss, the International Trade Secretary. And that's important for you, going back to the point about power, to push back on behalf of the environment and of farmers. Yes. And of course, to get back to the sustainability issue and climate change, you know, we will be factoring in the cost of air miles, the cost of shipping miles, all of those things. And so it will become more significant that we buy our own produce at home and we support British farmers, something I've always done and I hope Emma, you do as well. But you can't have a level playing field and a deal.

There will be the demands, not just from the Australians, for zero tariff and less labelling. And there was a study last year which found three quarters of people from which do not want food even to be on sale in the UK if it has lesser production standards than us. Yes. So, again, we already have very strict labelling rules and regulations, but actually we're introducing more eco-labelling, again, through the Environment Bill, which will get Royal Assent in the autumn. So people will be able to make choices for themselves. They'll be able to see where it was produced, where it came from, how sustainable it was. All of those things will be on our labels.

And it's also about consumer choice. But we do need this deal. You know, we've left the EU. We need to get out there as a global trading partner. And I believe we can do it. And I believe we can do it successfully. And I believe we can also support a really important farming industry. Well, we will talk again, I'm sure. You're going on a holiday this year? Where are you off to? Are you going to any of those amber countries that George Eustace, the Environment Secretary, seemed to say we could all go to if we needed to see our mate? I haven't got a holiday booked at all. I actually really love being home in my garden, if I'm really honest. Right. OK, well, thank you very much. A lot of people will be in the same boat looking for guidance, I suppose, what countries to go to. I like the good old West Country. It's absolutely tremendous. So come there.

The Environment Minister, Rebecca Powell, and we look forward to talking again. Now, the Prime Minister this week has also been talking about what he called shameful racism after a convoy of cars bearing Palestinian flags drove through a Jewish community in North London, appearing to shout anti-Semitic threats and abuse. Four men have now been arrested on suspicion of racially aggravated public order offences. While we can't talk about the specifics of their case, now subject to legal proceedings, it's worth reminding yourself of what they were recorded as saying driving through Jewish communities. And here is the warning you do not get on social media. It is upsetting. The word Jews is heard at the beginning of the clip. And then they appear to say, F all of them,

F their mothers, F their daughters, and show your support for Palestine, rape their daughters. And we have to send a message like that. Please do it for the poor children in Gaza. Raping their perceived enemies, mothers and daughters. Women are the focus of the threat and how they relate to men. A threat issued on the streets of Britain in 2021. Here to discuss why and how that is still part of anyone's lexicon, the writer and feminist activist Julie Bindle and the historian Sir Anthony Beaver, who's written extensively about rape in war, particularly what the Red Army did as it invaded Russia at the end of World War Two. Welcome to both of you. Julie, if I start with you, were you surprised by what was being said?

No, not at all. And rightly so. We are absolutely appalled at the gross anti-Semitism. And I think that had it not been in those circumstances with the words used, then the threats of rape would have largely gone unnoticed by our national and international media. I mean, I hear men threaten rape all the time from those that try and hit on women in bars. One minute, they're gorgeous. What are you ladies doing here on your own? The next is you're too ugly to rape. Men using rape as a threat constantly. Men using rape to put a stamp on their ownership of women, so I'll rape your woman, which is, of course, what the men in the car said. So it shows misogyny, but also the sense that men think that the defilement of other men, of rival men,

whether it's football teams, whether it's in gangs, or whether it's between Israelis and Palestinians in this context, that the defilement of men is only really possible if you sexually defile their women. Because, of course, men's honour remains intact. The honour or dishonouring of women is very much something that patriarchy is built on, whether women are slags, whether women are rapable, whether women should be punished for being raped, whether men can get to other men by threatening or actually raping women. I mean, Julie, a lot of your work would mean you wouldn't be surprised. And also, you know, to caveat that, some men, you know, say these things and also some men will have been surprised by this

and will have been shocked by this. Anthony, how did you feel when you saw these reports? Well, I was shaken, I have to say. I think it was this sort of atavistic anger which goes back such a long way. I mean, basically, let's face it, rape in war is probably the oldest or second oldest war crime that's ever existed. And we've seen this going on age after age. It's an idea that basically, rape is a part of looting. And therefore, it is a part of looting and therefore it is a question of ownership. And Julia Bindle is absolutely right about that.

This notion that you can humiliate your enemy by attacking their women is still there. Now, obviously, one is shocked, perhaps, because we think that in Britain things are more evolved or slightly more civilised. But I think that Julia is absolutely right in what she says about the way that men will still today come out with these sort of remarks. But not every man, I hope. But on the field of combat and the field of war, we have seen areas and we still will see areas where armies are even using rape as a weapon of terror. I think one's got to be careful about using the phrase rape as a weapon of war.

But it has certainly been used as a weapon of terror for ethnic cleansing, as well as in even more conventional military environments. And forgive me, as I introduced you, I made an error there because I said, as the Red Army did when it invaded Russia, of course, I meant Germany there. And you've, of course, written about this in other circumstances. And so I'll come back to you in a minute. Julie, I'm very interested there to talk about, well, we'll look at the history of this, but how this not only has crept into people's language

and the way that people, you know, insult each other and at other times threaten each other, but how it stayed there. Why do you think it has remained, Julie, as so much progress has been made in so many other areas? Well, misogyny is something that women see every day. And it's different from sexism in that sexism is the kind of very patriarchal notion that women are somehow lesser than men, inferior to men, very different to men. Misogyny is an open and direct hatred towards women. And I think that the reason it's still here is because we haven't yet tackled rape culture and the culture that gives men permission to rape. Now, of course, it's always caveated, not all men, not all men.

We know not all men. Excuse me, we know this. Why do we have to keep saying it? Because actually all men do benefit from the fact that women are kept in an abject state of fear when, for example, we're going home late at night, when we go into our home and we live with an abuser. And so the reason why it's still here

is because we have a criminal justice system that fails to tackle it at the moment from reporting of rape through to the very end processing court. We have a 0.5% conviction rate. The reports of rape are actually a tiny proportion of those that are carried out. So let that sink in. A 0.5% conviction rate for rape is effectively an amnesty on men. It's a rapist charter. And those attitudes are not held only by a tiny minority of men who have mental health problems or who are somehow on the margins of society. This is normalised, regular, everyday sexual violence

against women. It's not just the threat of rape. No, no, no. It's the actual reality of rape. And that's vital to emphasise. But what I wanted to know was, building on that, not all the men who use these remarks, whether it's, as you mentioned, you know,

whether it's in football, whether it's in other scenarios, will know what you've just said. They won't connect those two things. Somehow, somewhere, they've still got that message about this being the thing that you say to be the ultimate thing you say. What do you think that's from? Do you have a thought on that? I think they do know. I think men do know fine well in this in the way that we have this myth that men don't understand the grey areas of consent. Men know fine well what they're saying and what they're doing. I remember back 40 years ago when I was a young woman in Leeds, when Peter Sutcliffe, the so-called Yorkshire Ripper, was killing women and the police, because of their bungles and their misogyny, hadn't caught him. And Leeds football fans were shouting 12-0, 12-0,

because 12 women had been murdered by this man. And they were taunting the police with the deaths and mutilation of women. And I remember then, at the time, going on bosses late at night, being scared because this man was still at large, and men threatening to rape us if we didn't let them walk us home.

I mean, it is often they see it as fun. They see it as part of their leisure activity. It's not fun. Women take these threats very seriously. And so I would say to men, if you hear men joking about rape, tell them to stop joking about rape because it's an everyday reality for women. And also some of the phrases, even just the way people can say, your mum, you know, that it's about where you came from and that being an insult. It's also just at a lighter level, people will think of that as just part of normal parlance still. Which is outrageous.

And they don't give that the analysis. Anthony, to come back to something you mentioned earlier about as a weapon of war, that's not necessarily how we should refer to rape and how it has been used as that ultimate attack against one's enemy. What do you mean by that? Well, there are different examples where it is quite clearly a weapon of war. It was actually used to terrify the other side. For example, in the Spanish Civil War, some of Franco's officers encouraged their colonial troops from the Maghreb, from North Africa,

to rape Republican women, purely, it says, to terrorise the militias who were trying to defend Madrid. There was another very clear example, which Christina Lamb wrote about in her book, about the Pakistan army in Bangladesh. This was a deliberate attempt to use rape as a weapon of war. But the trouble is that the phrase weapon of war has been overused because there are other examples, and going back to, say,

the Red Army, where there was an allowance, if you like, by the leaders for the men to rape, and therefore they were using it was a pure act of violence. Now, obviously, from a victim-survivor's point of view, obviously, rape looks like an act of violence. But you've also got to look at the motivation of the perpetrator. By the time the Red Army got to Berlin, there they were searching out the most attractive women that they could find with torches in the cellars and in the air raid shelters and so forth. And by then it had become pure, sheer sexual opportunism. So one does need to look at, shall we say, the motivation of the men on whether it is literally an act of vengeance and, in their case, of the Red Army after the invasion of the Soviet Union, or whether it is an act of sheer sexual opportunism because they have a gun and therefore the women are totally at their mercy.

So those differences there, and obviously it's not just in historical times, it's still going on. Julie, a final word to you about gangs. What do you think the remarks, the abuse, I should say, at the weekend should make us think about gang culture? Well, we should always worry about gang culture because girls are often passed around between rival gangs. Often rival gangs will use girls as sexual currency. The girls will be raped and otherwise sexually exploited

within this context. And I think that the notion that men somehow have this kind of sense of kinship because of their treatment of and attitudes towards women, it's really worrying and it should be tackled. And obviously, it's not just in gangs, but men do shore each other up with their attitudes. They give each other permission to do this. Well, you talked about what people could potentially do to try and disrupt this being a normal part of the way that we talk. And also very interesting to look back and look in the present time with you, Julie Bindle there and Sir Anthony Beaver. Thank you. Well, I have been asking you to get in touch about where you find a bit of space for yourself. Perhaps that's where the radio is playing right now.

Maybe where you found that bit to call your own, if you can carve it out away from others that you may live with, or you may live alone and still need a sort of separate space from where you've been living. Because since the beginning of the pandemic, shed sellers have seen a surge in demand, some up 300%, especially those that can be used as home offices or shopfices. New words around this. Existing summer houses and garages have also been commandeered, particularly by women, as a growing number expect to be working from home. Instagram's awash with these images. Just look up She Sheds, which I've learned to say now.

So we thought we would speak to the author, Joanne Harris, of course, very famous for her books, Chocolat and The Strawberry Thief, who's still writing, I don't know if you're in it actually right now, from her shed near Huddersfield and Jill Harris, author of A Woman's Shed. Is that where you are right now, Joanne? Yes, I'm in my shed right now. This is where I normally work and I've spent more time in it in the past 18 months than in the last 20 years.

And what is it like? Could you describe it for us? Well, it started off being a quite monastic stone building. It's actually filled up with a lot of my favourite things. It's got artwork in it. It's got candles. It's everything that I like has sort of migrated up here. And it's where you work or you do other things in there? What's the purpose of it? It's everything that I like has sort of migrated up here. And it's where you work or you do other things in there. What's the purpose of it? It was effectively, it was a workroom, but I also now do Zoom calls and a lot of meetings and things.

It gets me out of the way. And it means that I don't get disturbed by just being in the house. I think anybody who works from home knows what it's like. Family just wander in and out. Yes. And you see jobs all the time that you could be doing or certainly I do. And I think I better do that. I better do that. And as a procrastinator, personally, that's not great. Jill, tell us about women's relationship with sheds. Well, I think they're multi-use, aren't they?

They are quite often retreats. They're quite often, like I sometimes think of some women's sheds as dens, somewhere where you can kind of play and be a bit different. And also they are away from the domestic space. As Joanne has mentioned, you know, you've got everything going on in the home and all those chores looking at you and you know the people of your of your home so it's a it's a non-domestic space and it's somewhere where you can work you can make you can hang out you can put anything that you like in your shed you can be your yourself you can

you've seen a range haven't you though you've seen a real range of how people have um have created these spaces not just sheds as well tell us about some of the examples well they go anything from beach huts which are quite often pure fantasy spaces, you know, and have your hot water bottles hanging on the back of the door. Nice. You know, the pebbles that you've collected on the beach. And then you get very magnificent sheds, but also very humble sheds. And one that struck me was a very small, very ordinary wooden shed, which this woman used partly as a retreat because she was caring for her quite disabled husband. And in this little space, she had a very little desk where she was writing

and she had a few plants and uh it does sound like that sort of sanctuary doesn't it that that that's very simple one and you've got if you're right you've got three sheds yes i have right what's so is one to work in, one storage? How does it work? So where I lived before, I created a fantastic shed out of an old kennels and garage, which I was very, very proud of and loved and had a veranda. Wow. And I moved to the house I'm in now.

One of the sheds was actually belonged to a writer and she was friend she was a friend of mine and um I took I've moved into this house uh so so she had that it's a wooden shed which was the shed in which I wrote a woman's shed of course I mean if you hadn't written it in a shed that would have have been problematic. That would have been gone, wouldn't it? Well, let's just go back to Joanne. You tweet from the shed every morning. Is that right? Yes, I do. It's a kind of Zen exercise. I started this when my husband was building the shed and I would tweet the progress of the shed. And then when I moved into it, the shed kind of acquired its own persona and as a kind of headspace exercise for me to start work I would say what the shed was doing and the shed became an entity in its own right so it changes shape and location every day so sometimes it's a mirror ball sometimes it's a flying carpet

it's usually some kind of vehicle or dwelling and that tends to reflect my mood. And it also gets me into the headspace to work, which is really important for a writer. Otherwise, we do spend all our time on Twitter and procrastinate. I was going to say that can begin a difficult day. But I recognise that some of them might be quite random, these tweets. And I think a couple of times you've been asked, are you all right? You know, what are you actually saying here from your shed? Well, sometimes people assume that this is my mental state. And so if I say, you know, the shed is a broken tower on a bleak landscape looking down over snow, people will go, are you feeling OK? That's not necessarily wrong. Sometimes it is exactly how I feel.

But sometimes it's expressing something that I'm going to be writing about or I'm trying to look into a kind of mental window. And yes, I find myself often repeating to newcomers on Twitter what the shed is and why they shouldn't necessarily take everything literally. Some people got indignant when I said the shed was in Hawaii and it was a hammock on a beach because they thought I'd actually flown there. And you were just reminding them there is such a thing as imagination, which is what you're doing in your shed, using it and writing. I know your latest book, Honeycomb, was written from your shed as well. Just to say a couple of messages that I wanted to share from all of you listening with us. My she shed is under a giant oak tree opposite a much loved garden beehive at the bottom of my garden in Hastings,

originally created as a giving space, practically and emotionally for family and friends visiting, it soon became Bee Potion HQ Apothecary. A beehive, I believe, is a type of shed in itself. Influenced by my bees and their love of healing flowers, I created in my shed various potions, also teaching the next generations. It's a retreat and a place of calm alchemy. I promise we didn't ask for that having just mentioned the word

honeycomb, Joanne. It's funny how bees do tell stories, in fact. And yes, honeycomb was entirely written from the shed. In fact, most of it was written on Twitter. And I've been collecting bee folklore ever since I started it. So it's nice to hear that. And that shed sounds wonderful. Well, and obviously not everyone can do this. Not everyone has outdoor space or the means to be able to do this. Maybe they'll dream of it. But I do like this message from Charlotte

because we didn't just ask about sheds or actual dwellings, as it were. We asked about how you can create your space. Charlotte says, I like to carve out a space for myself by lying on the floor by my bed, making sure I'm in the sweet spot where I can't be seen from the door

so my children cannot find me. I consider it self-care. Another one just to share as well about the table, the kitchen table and what that's become. Catherine says, the kitchen table is my favourite place to work. It's surrounded by lots of books and maps, reminders of camping holidays with my three sons

a long while ago now. And of course, coffee is to hand. Jill, if you can't do it yourself or get a shed in place or in situ, how important do you think it is for perhaps women to think about making some sort of space of their own? Well, I think it's extremely important. And of course, we know that some women absolutely will not be able to do it. If you imagine you're in a multi-generational house or you're in a small flat anywhere, then you're not going to be able to. And I really like that idea of that woman lying by her bed and creating her own little sacred space, as it were. And a lot of women work from the kitchen table. I mean, the kitchen table can quite often be, you know,

clear everything away. I think that's the thing, clear everything away, even if your mini shed is a desktop. Are you a fan of she shed as a descriptor? I'm not particularly one, I have to say. The publishers like it. That's good. See, they like it.

And I respect that. But in the beginning, I wanted to call the book, you know, what it is, you know, Women's Sheds, because it describes it and it was in response to men's sheds. Yes, I understand that. Joanna, is it a she shed for you? No, I'm not a fan of that term, really. I mean, by all means, for people to use it if they like it,

but it kind of implies that women are a secondary space and I think they should be a primary space. They deserve the space that they have. Very good. And I should say, it's not been mentioned by either of you, but some people like to make a bar in there, maybe a bit of gin, a bit of cocktail.

Have you got any cocktails in there, Joanne, at the moment, or is it just tea? No cocktails, but lots of tea. That's my kind of shed as well. Thank you very much to both of you, Joanne Harris and Jill Harris. Joanne writing, of course,

talked about Honeycomb and Jill Harris, an author of A Woman's Shed. Now, I did say we'd explain something behind certain figures that you may have noticed. Earlier this month, the Chinese government released figures from its census showing that over the past decade, the population had increased by 5% to 1.4 billion.

But if you dig below the headline figures, you'll find a startling fall in the country's birth rate. The statistics revealed an 18% fall in the number of babies born in China from 2019 to 2020, resulting in the country's slowest population growth since the early 60s. China scrapped its landmark one-child policy in 2015. So what is going on? Dr Ye Liu, excuse me, a senior lecturer in international development at King's College London joins us now and has done research into the legacy of China's one-child policy. Good morning.

Good morning. What is your understanding of that decrease? What could we start to understand it as being because of? There is no simple answer. It's totally expected. There is no simple answer. But while we do frame this answer is to understand the legacy of the one-child policy. We need to ask, a lot of people have been asking why Chinese women don't want to have more babies, but we need to ask who these women are and why they don't want to have more babies. So these

women are born under one-child policy. In China, we have a term, women born after 1980s, called Ba Ling Ho, and those born after 1990s, Zhou Ling Ho. So I have been following 82 women who were born after 1980s and asking them about their feelings and thoughts about the two-child policies, you know, one-child policy. The Chinese government ended one one child policy in late 2015 as incentive to boost more birth

and I asked these 82 women a lot of reactions but none of them particularly thrilled at the prospect of having another child Is that cultural or is that actually, when we get down to it, that it's very difficult to get childcare and also to hold on to your job if you have a baby?

Yes, exactly. It's similar to a lot of experience in Western countries. So this is a classic kind of work family conflict. But we need to also look at the agency of this particular generation of women. They had more education than previous generations. And the women I've interviewed, they had professional jobs, they had really good income.

So this constant conflict about work and family. And also we need to look at a china as a country um which underspend on child care so there is a kind of a in china um not to three care public subsidized child care practically non-existent so women in china still rely on their own families to look after their children because Because that infrastructure isn't there. Is it also true that when you're pregnant in China, and there is also discrimination against those of child-rearing age, child-bearing age and rearing, I should say,

is it true that you can have some of your responsibilities removed from you while you're pregnant? Yes, from my interviews, a lot of women talk about workplace misogynist practices, particularly targeting women of child-rearing and child-carrying age. For instance, some of the women I interviewed had to get a permit from their employers to get pregnant. It's called a pregnancy queue because certain workplace, they have a limited number of employees, so they need to space out kind of a workload.

So women have to have that conversation with their employers, in most cases men, about their birth plans. Yeah, I mean, and that's also just, you know, hoping that you can get pregnant in that time. You know, you have to, you know, it's not like clockwork, as many people will know. And okay, so I mean, that's obviously something that you hope will go with time, perhaps with cultural change as well. I'm just bringing you back to our conversation at the start or towards the start of the programme with our Environment Minister, with Rebecca Powell. There'll be some listening to this

thinking, is that potentially a good thing if there are fewer children? Talking about population strains on our resources in the world, or is it actually a problem for China? It's a... To be honest, I think China is at a crossroad. China needs to... This is a crucial moment, make-or-break break moment to make China a more gender egalitarian, a more caring society, or continue to pursue this global ambition of superpower, economic superpower. the population data, you know, the whole discussion about environment, you know, where China is heading in the next 20, 50 years.

And for the moment, the policy response is quite depressing. A lot of people are using this kind of testosterone charge discourse policy, kind of thinking about pay or punishment to boost birth rates. So a lot of people, particularly male professors, demographers, they have been writing papers and promoting this kind of revamp the one-child policy set up to reward people to have more children and punish those who refuse to have more children. And this kind of testosterone, what I call testosterone-charged policy thinking won't work.

And it's a crucial moment for China to think about to build a care infrastructure, to invest more in early child care, to professionalize the child care provider. Because at the moment, not only a lot of women share their distrust about private child care providers, and it is a crucial moment for the Chinese government to regulate the industry and to provide public care support. Very, very interesting. I hope we can come back to this at some point,

but it's fascinating to get that rounded picture and the idea of China as a crossroads. Dr Ye Li Wu, Senior Lecturer at International Development, in International Development at King's College London. Messages coming in, just to go back to our discussion around rape as a threat in people's language. As a person who's generally identified as a man, I was somewhat taken aback to have heard the assertion from Julie Bindle that all men benefit from rape culture. My mother, sister and a number of my closest friends have been victims of male rapists.

This would be the first time I've ever had to consider this as being of benefit to me. And I dispute this vigorously. I agree it's redundant to constantly emphasise not all men and for the reasons that your commentator emphasises, however, that all men benefit from this culture or that rapists is offensive to any male who has been affected by rape. More messages around that coming

in and of course, please do keep them coming. I've also got messages about your space and your area and what you call your own. I don't like the phrase she shed ever, but my friend created a beautiful hidden corner of her garden, which she calls her lady garden. And another one here, my she shed, very good, very good,

is 10 minutes on a park bench after the school run and before going to working from home from my two bedroom flat with no outdoor space, no shed at home. 10 minutes on the park bench, wherever you can get it. Important to make that point. Helen said, my lovely husband built my shed for me and it's where I paint and write. I'm just about to start another painting

while I listen to the show. What a lovely thought. Helen, thank you for sharing and so many more messages around this. Some of you creating all sorts of businesses from in them being very industrious or wherever you create your space. Thank you for your company today.

We'll be back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank or wherever you create your space. Thank you for your company today. We'll be back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Sneakers? Trainers. Whatever you want to call them, they are amongst the most iconic cultural objects of our time.

But their evolution is a story rarely told until now. From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakernomics. Across this podcast, we're going to be telling the crazy origin stories of the most well-known sports companies and their relentless quest to be the world's number one brand. Sneakernomics tells the story of fierce competition and rivalry, one that tore families and friendships apart, and even divided towns. We'll follow in the footsteps of mavericks, hustlers and dreamers, and hear their tales of boom and bust, fame and infamy, hope and heartbreak. Above all, this is the story of the people behind the shoes.

From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakernomics. Subscribe at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.