Woman's Hour - Women and Space: Nasa's Holly Ridings, the psychology of space travel, Rocket Women and the cultural significance of space

Episode Date: December 28, 2020

Holly Ridings is the first woman to be NASA's chief flight director. She was appointed in 2018 and is responsible for missions to the International Space Station, the Orion spacecraft and commercial spacecraft. She is also in charge of the Artemis programme - named after Apollo's twin sister - which will land the first woman and next man on the Moon by 2024, using innovative technologies to explore more of the lunar surface than ever before and potentially lead to further missions to Mars. She is responsible for 32 flight directors who are overseeing human spaceflight at the Mission Control Center at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston.How do you know if you’re fit enough psychologically to go into space? What do you need to do to survive in such close quarters with other people? When it comes to Mars, the focus is often on how to get there: the rockets, the engines, the fuel. But upon arrival, what will it actually be like? Jane speaks to Kate Greene author of “Once Upon a Time I Lived On Mars” and to Dr Iya Whiteley, Director of the Centre for Space Medicine at Mullard Space Science Laboratory, University College London. What are the jobs for women in space? Vinita Marwaha Madill is founder of Rocket Women which aims to inspire women around the world and provide advice on working in the space and technology industries.And finally, what is the cultural significance of space and the moon to us? It is the site of so much folklore, myth and legends and has spawned countless books, films and songs. Looking up at the stars is a trope of romance – but it also a reminder of how small and insignificant our own lives are – seen against the life of the cosmos. For that reason many ask – should we even be going to the moon or Mars? Jane discusses this with the folksinger Karine Polwart who is writing a new theatre piece called “The Only Light Was Stars” and Dr. Nelly Ben Hayoun-Stépanian who is a driector, member of the SETi Institute, Vice-Chair of The Committee for the Cultural Utilisation of Space and director and founder of the International Space Orchestra in NASA. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Clare Walker

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hi, hello, good morning. This is Jane Garvey and this is Woman's Hour, one of those strange days between Christmas and New Year and we thought we'd take full advantage and give you a programme today about one of my favourite subjects. I'm on my way out. People have been saying it for years, but this time it's actually happening.

And so I've been allowed to choose some of the subjects for my last couple of editions of Women's AHA. And I've always had a thing about space. So this programme is about women and space. And I'm delighted to say we're going to talk to some fantastic women on the programme this morning. So fortunate. We'll discuss the psychology of space travel. We'll talk about opportunities for women in space employment. And we'll talk too about the cultural significance of space and the moon.

It's not a live programme, but nevertheless, you can still react to everything you've heard on social media at BBC Women's Out. And I'm delighted to say that our first guest this morning, well, we've gone right to the very, very top. You're about to hear from Holly Ridings, the first woman to be NASA's chief flight director. Now, she is going to direct the next moon landing from the Mission Control Center in Houston in Texas.

Now, I asked Holly Ridings what the NASA schedule for the next couple of years was. I'm assuming you're speaking about the Artemis program. And if so, then we are very, very focused on 2024. But the first flight of the Artemis program will in fact be next year. So it's not very far away. OK, great. So the Artemis program, just tell us exactly what that is. Yes. So Artemis is our campaign is the word I like to use because it involves lots of spacecraft and lots of different people and programs all over the world to head back to the moon and then beyond to Mars. And so that's a very exciting thing that we're all working on.

But next year is what? What happens then? So, yes, next year is Artemis 1. So that is the uncrewed test flight. So typically when you build a new spacecraft or a spacecraft launch vehicle system, you will do a test flight without humans on it to make sure everything works correctly. So Artemis 1 is that test flight. And then that will be followed by Artemis 2. And so that will be the first crewed flight for all of the human rated systems. And then Artemis 3 on the books for 2024 is the boots on the moon. The boots on the moon and some of those boots will most certainly be worn by a woman. Yes? Yes, definitely. Just a couple of weeks ago, we had the opportunity to announce the Artemis cadre from those team members and or potentially other astronauts that currently

have other assignments, we're going to pull the first crew members. But the commitment from our administrator and the agency is absolutely that that will contain the first female that will set boots on the moon. Is it important to you that people are on side with this as an ambition of the NASA program, that you want to be the first to put female feet on the moon? That's an interesting question. Absolutely, yes. I mean, human space flight is about perseverance and relevance and the future for all of us. So I personally believe everyone should have that excitement and that ambition to bring something positive to the world. And I would tell you, I think it needs to be representative of the world that we live in and where we are as a society.

And so absolutely, I do believe it's an important ambition for all of us to make that happen. You are NASA's chief flight director. You've been in the job for a little over two years. You happen to be the first woman in that role. But I don't imagine that's the first thing on your mind every morning when you wake up. You don't think, here I am another day at the office. How often does that actually cross your mind? And actually, how significant is it to you? That's a great question.

I was chuckling because the first thing that crosses my mind every morning when I wake up is how's the International Space Station doing, right? So, you know, we've been talking about Artemis, but one of NASA's other human spaceflight programs is the International Space Station. Been flying in low Earth orbit for over 20 years. We have crews, astronauts, cosmonauts, male, female, you know, all of our international partners on board continuously. So actually, the first thing that crosses my mind every morning is how did the space station do, you know, overnight? When I think about being the first female chief, I only think about it when I'm reminded, and I do get reminded, you know, quite a bit, you're the first female chief, and what does that mean? And I think it's

amazing to have an opportunity to represent for the world that needs that representation. But it's interesting because, you know, NASA does such a great job of diversity inclusion. And then that was the way I was raised as well. And so I don't really have the background of thinking about it even growing up. You know, I just worked hard and did my job. But I've sort of grown into realising that it has value and importance for the world and started to learn how to embrace that, if that makes sense. Sure. When you were talking there about your first thought being how things are on the International Space Station, does that mean that actually after this year, where so many of us have been consumed by one thing and one thing only, that you've had the

privilege almost of being able to prioritise something else, something actually completely otherworldly. I actually very much agree with that, right? I mean, when you look at the world and the challenges that we've had to be able to have a job where I am continuously involved in producing something that is at least, you know, I believe a very positive value, not only for the United States, but for the entire world, you know, something where people come together and we're doing science and we're trying to push, you know, the boundaries of our civilization in a team oriented way. You know, absolutely. It is an anchor point for me and for, I hope, a lot of people in the world. But there's also, well, you tell me, is there a patriotic element to all this?

Let's say an American woman lands on the moon, might be a woman of colour in 2024. She's standing on the moon. She's standing on the moon. I mean, I say that as though that's the most, you know, it's a colossal achievement. She's got the stars and stripes. That's a statement, isn't it? To me, that picture that you painted is nuanced. Like it will be just excitement and pride and happiness and relief, you know, on so many levels. And some of that is absolutely, you know, for a country, for the United States of America to have done this. Yes, there will be pride. But, you know,

we also fly the International Space Station and we look at human spaceflight as a global endeavor. So to me, you feel that pride and that excitement and again, you know, relief, right? Because there's a lot of risk involved in spaceflight for everyone. I just want to know the degree to which you call the shots. So will it be you who tells the people that they are going on that crewed mission to the moon in 2024? And will it be you who tells the people who aren't going? When you talk about decisions that are single point in the moment, real time operations,

where we sort of get to make the call like we're landing on the moon, we're not landing on the moon, you know, right this minute, we're going to do the burn of the engines that take us towards the moon or away from the moon. You know, that's where we work in mission control as the flight director on console, the crew assignments themselves, you know, will be made early and primarily by the chief astronaut, then some involvement by a small group of folks. Right. And you're included in that group, right? We are going on later, actually, to talk about the psychology required to make you a decent astronaut. But what do you think the best qualities are? You know, you have to be part of a team, first of all. And that is true of astronauts. And it's also true of flight directors and the team on

the ground and mission control. And you have to have the ability to function in that environment in a safe way. And what that means to me is you can both know the right answer, you must follow me, we must do it my way, but also the opposite, right? You have to be humble, I made a mistake, I don't know what to do here. And so creating an environment, first of all, where you can have that psychological safety, you know, when you're in a spaceship with a small team of people far away from the earth, or when you are in mission control, you know, with a relatively small team of people supporting those folks is of tremendous value. And so that's partially the expectations that we set as leaders. And it's partially the

individuals that are selected to have that flexibility and adaptability from a mental and also a physical standpoint. It's just a colossal undertaking in a way you have to have an astonishing range of skills and humility and self-awareness. There just aren't that many people around like that, are there? So I would say no, there are not. I'll tell you what, there are none in broadcasting. I'll tell you that much. Maybe you are. We just met. I don't know. No, no. Carry on.

We've actually been in the process of hiring flight directors. You know, we're a small team, less than 30. And so we add a few to our ranks you know every couple of years less than 100 people there's actually been fewer flight directors than astronauts is one of the things i like to i like to give them a hard time about um but to your point it is an i use your words astonishing list of skills and it's actually pretty difficult to find, you know, engineers in general, right, are a certain type of person, you know, maybe introverted, very technically oriented, enjoy being right a lot of the time. And then when you need the communications, right, which is one of the things you do for working either in mission control or being on the spaceship and communicating

with your team or communicating back to mission control. Everyone likes to use soft skills. And I was talking to a friend the other day, we should stop talking about soft skills because they're just skills. And it is difficult. And I think that the world we live in now in human spaceflight, right, where we're doing all of this development, we don't have a longstanding program like the shuttle, where at least we sort of had some experience with that vehicle and how it flew. All of the stuff we're doing now is new where, you know, you have less confidence that you know the answer. And for my generation, I haven't led a team that's gone to the moon. I've led a team that's flown in low Earth orbit a lot, but none of us have led a team

that's going to fly to the moon. So in some ways, it's new for the leadership as well as the team that is working. And that I think is challenging from a skills perspective to find people. They're out there. Mercifully, they are out there. We should have nailed it down earlier, but your degree was in mechanical engineering, wasn't it? Is that right? Yes, that's correct. And I think I'm right in saying that you have done a range of roles, including roles in which

you described yourself as not the best qualified person in the room, but nevertheless, you were the person in charge. Yes. So typically when you become a flight director, you have before that done a system that's an area of expertise. So I worked on thermal systems as an example. But when you are selected as a flight director, you then have to learn all of the systems on whichever spacecraft it is that you're responsible for and in charge of. And so obviously you don't have deep background in all of those, but yet you in fact are absolutely the leader of that team. So a lot of your job ends up being able to get your team members who know more technical areas than you do to give you the information that you need, ask the right questions.

And really what you do is you manage risk, right? So when you drive down the road in your car, you can go faster, you can go slow, you can obey the rules or not. And so if you decide not to obey the rules, you're taking some amount of risk, right, that you could get a ticket, that you could get in a wreck. And so we just do that as a primary job responsibility in orbit. Yeah, but you've got to know enough to know what you can afford to ignore. That's absolutely true. And so we do a lot of studying. It's schematics and quizzes and computer-based training where you're practicing emergency scenarios. And then the other thing we do is simulations.

This week I'll do a simulation myself just to keep my skills sharp when they give you all of these problems and you and your team sit in machine control and solve them. And as somebody who has to be in a position of authority and who has to make decisions, do you not care whether you're liked or not? Or have you learned not to care? Yeah, another good question. You know, I think every human cares at some level, and we focus very much in our culture on teamwork. And so it's a fine line between building a team that is high performing, that can make quick decisions and being liked. So I think that I've learned to focus more on what's the best for the team. And as the leader, I'm not the person who

needs to be liked, but I'm the person that they need to follow. And so sometimes that is supporting them and hanging out in a way that would look like trying to have people sort of like each other. But really, you have to flex. Sometimes it's absolutely no, we're going this way. So to me, if you focus on what's best for the team, you don't worry as much about it on a personal level. Can we ask a couple of sort of philosophical questions about whether anyone, any country, any organisation, any body can begin to regard space as theirs. There will be some people who look to the heavens and think we'd be better off leaving well alone. And I suppose there'll be other people who say, honestly, how has space travel improved us as a human race?

There isn't actually any evidence to suggest that it has. Take me on. What do you say to that, Holly? It's about relevancy as a race. It's about learning going forward. It's about pulling the world together and have a positive event. So when I was young, how I ended up getting into space was I watched the Challenger disaster. So that's kind of my origin story. I was at the very end of elementary school. And many people who are involved in space all over the world, not just Americans, watched that tragedy and got involved

in space because they wanted to make it better, right? So there's a fair amount of good in people where they want to fix problems and make things better. But if you think about going to the moon, you know, the first woman standing there on the moon, you know, the boots on the ground, I mean, it almost gives me chills. Now we have set that positive example for the future for everyone that's coming after us. And yes, there will be people who will choose not to pick it up. There will be people who will choose to look through their lens in a negative way. But overall, to provide that positive example for the world is powerful. And do you think we should protect the moon in the way that, for example, that's also an interesting question. And I will tell you, doing operations, I don't often get that question. I think right now there's an opportunity for the world to come together and go to the moon. So, you know, I'm always the team person, right, versus the belongs to one or the other, and we start, you know, shutting groups out. So I am definitely personally of the belief that the moon should be available and accessible

to the entire human race. I just wonder whether there's anything you could say about to British girls and boys who might be listening because sometimes we feel a little distant. I know we have had British astronauts, but we're not exactly at the forefront of all this. And is there a role for people born outside countries like the United States and China and India, all of which have space programs,

to take part? And what should they do? Is there any advice you could give them? I would say that historically, right, there has not been a lot. There has been some, and I think there will absolutely be more in the future. So there is a lot going on in human spaceflight. We've talked about NASA's programs, but there's all types of commercial companies and teams that are really sort of chipping away at human spaceflight. And a friend of mine the other day likened it almost kind of to the dot-com boom. They won't all survive, but some of them will, and that will provide opportunities for the kids that are in school right now.

You know, specifically Tim Peake, right? Amazing. He's amazing. Yeah. His sons and mine are about the same age. And, and so I know him as a human, as well as an astronaut. He's just an amazing person. And I actually was in Liverpool last fall, so October and spoke at the women in science and engineering, the LiveWise. So my personal familiarity with things that are opportunities for you is that it's really good. There's amazing people that are really working and trying to bring it to all of the community. And those are just kind of two specific examples. So I'd say just keep chipping away. It might be not as prevalent and not as easy as, you know, walking across the street to the Johnson Space Center.

But the opportunities are there, and I think they're coming in larger volume as today's schoolchildren grow up. I certainly hope so. That was the remarkably impressive Holly Ridings, who is NASA's first female chief flight director. I'm delighted to have her on the programme, actually. That's an amazing person to be able to talk to. I feel very fortunate. Now, most of us, if we're honest, couldn't go into space.

I really wanted to talk about the psychology involved here and about the sort of people who are suited to this extraordinary, challenging role. What would it be like to go to Mars, for example? Could you be the sort of person who would be able to cope? Kate Green is the author of Once Upon a Time I Lived on Mars and Dr. Ea Whiteley is Director of the Centre for Space Medicine at the Mullard Space Science Laboratory at University College London. Good morning to you both. Hi, Ea. Hi, Kate.

Good morning. Hello. Now, can we just talk a little bit about an experiment that you took part in, Kate? Tell us what it was and how long ago it was. Well, in 2013, I was selected to be one of six crew members on NASA's high seas simulated Mars mission. And this was essentially a practice Mars mission here on Earth that lasted for four months. It was located in Hawaii on top of a volcano. And so it was very red and rocky. And the six of us lived in a geodesic dome. We couldn't leave unless we were wearing spacesuit-like outfits and our communications were delayed by 20 minutes each way to give the real feel of being so far away from Earth.

Why you, Kate? Why were you chosen for this? You know, on some level, I don't really know. But on, I just have to say that. But practically speaking, I did have the qualifications. I have a background in science and I had worked in an operational environment that was important in a physics laser lab. So I know how to fiddle with equipment and that sort of thing. But I spent a lot of time as a science journalist. And so, I mean, I suspect that my professional qualifications were kind of a nice mixture of someone who understands the science, but also can communicate well with the public. And we had interviews where we were asked questions about how we deal with risk and how we act in a team environment,

that sort of thing. So potentially something I said during those interviews did the trick. Right. Okay. Well, you must have passed that test. Let's just talk basics here. Let's say there was a mission to Mars. First of all, how long, realistically, might you expect to be away from home for? We're talking years, aren't we? Yes, it could be up to 520 days. So the idea is that if we are spending so much money and the effort on everyone's behalf, we want to spend longer on Mars.

So to get that window opportunity, then it becomes a longer journey because you have to fulfil both windows to go into return. Of course. If you're psychologically flawed, you're going to be found out, aren't you? There's no doubt about that. I have been sent a very basic list of starter questions. And I'm just interested in really, if you wouldn't mind telling me what the right answers are. So one of the questions, for example, is what angers you the most? How should an astronaut answer that question? Is there a correct answer? So these questions are more about how the person behaves in the interview rather than what the concrete answer. So the psychologists are complicated

beings. So we're looking for what happens in the thinking process or emotional process, or in fact, in their body language, like fidgeting feet, what they're doing with their hands, because these are the things that our awareness doesn't spread to when we're nervous. They know they want to succeed, right? So they will be looking for that answer, what angers you the most, what would be the safe thing to say, but also to appear truthful, right? So we'll ask about the context and how they dealt with it. That would be of interest to me.

Because we all get angry, right? Of course, and it would be odd if you said, oh, I never get angry. That wouldn't be an acceptable answer, I guess. But there's another question. What's the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life? Well, presumably, Ea, you wouldn't trust anybody who claimed they'd never made a mistake. Yes, I think in a way that's an interesting answer to get, right? Because that means that person perhaps analyzes a lot and is a perfectionist or don't recognize they make a mistake, which would be a clue.

You know, you'd want to investigate. Why do you think you don't make mistakes? That'd be my follow up question. What is their thinking process? I would ask, well, what do you consider a mistake to be? Yes. Well, Kate, I just want to know what happened in that weird dome you were living in on Hawaii. Did relationships break down? Did people reveal their true selves? And how horrible was it? It actually wasn't that horrible. You know, the six of us were chosen

for amiability and teamwork abilities. There were some heightened sensitivities and tensions at various points. What's interesting about asking people who are astronaut-like in some ways to simulate being on a space mission is that it's those fake astronauts' job to talk, to tell you what actually happened on the inside. Now, astronauts themselves tend not to talk about the more difficult aspects of isolation or what it is to work in such an intense environment because, you know, if they say the wrong thing, you come across that they're complaining and perhaps they will be asked back on another mission. But in our case, we really weren't concerned with that. Our main concern was to talk. Actually, a couple of issues that came up were around food, how food was shared. So someone took a big glob of Nutella on a spoon and ate it as a kind of dessert after

a meal. And someone else on the crew was horrified at that. And there was a moment of extreme tension. And then in my case, I had just gotten done with a workout. And I was excited about the possibility of drinking chocolate milk after it. And I went to the chocolate powder container and found just a dusting at the bottom. And I knew exactly who had been using all of the chocolate powder because I had seen him put it into his coffee every morning. And so for me, that was that was something of a breaking point. And I absolutely let loose. I think I actually called him a

chocolate monster. It doesn't make any sense, but I was... It does to me. I can tell you, I would have gone absolutely berserk. He was very calm about it. He apologized. And then I realized, you know what, we can't do anything about this anyway. And so it kind of blew over. Yeah, it blew over and you still talk. But of course, you weren't actually hurtling towards Mars. You were just pretending in Hawaii. Had you been? It's a fascinating insight, isn't it, into what can go wrong between individuals? Well, I think that incident is just human, right? When we set boundaries, if we don't talk or don't discuss, then other people don't know who we are, what we like, what we don't like.

So this is something that is very important to discuss in the beginning. I understand, actually, you can detect stress. Is it through voices? Is that what you're working on at the moment? Yes. We looked at tools for psychological support for long duration missions. And one of the tools that we identified is non-intrusive monitoring of the crew. What seems to be natural was the voice, because the voice is something you use all the time. And we looked into how to capture fatigue. That is very common among people who are high achievers, but they just would not meet and very often overstretch themselves. Okay, so their voice will betray the truth of how they are truly feeling?

Yes. Right. I mean, I'm interested, obviously, for the purposes of this programme in the differences between the sexes. Perhaps you could argue that in space, there are no differences. But what's your sense? Is a single sex team a good idea, Ia? Was it ever a good idea? So I have been fortunate to speak with a couple of Apollo crew. So of course they were all male, but one team was so gelled together. So they had the same cars, they did the same things. They were like jointed the hip and

they had very successful mission. And yet another crew, they hated each other in a way. So they wanted to outperform each other and outdo each other every time. And both of them had successful outcomes in terms of psychological and tasks, you know, performed. What I found is that working with astronauts as well as military people, when the woman comes in, the behavior changes completely. Let's say it's half-half. Then there is a different code of behavior. And suddenly you can't let it all hang out. You know, you have to be very attuned to what is appropriate.

You have to be more careful and people are more aware of the surrounding versus them being in the same sex team. But I would be interested to hear what was Kate, your experience in having, you know, half-half crew. Kate? I think in terms of a male-female crew, it really does depend on how you're socialized to deal with the opposite sex and the same sex. And when you're in a team doing such an extreme project like going to Mars, actually the best bet is to socialize yourself to that team environment and really be aware of the way that you might have been socialised otherwise to perceive difference. How interesting. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us this morning. Dr. Ia Whiteley, who's Director of the Centre for Space Medicine at the Mullard Space Science Laboratory at UCL. And you also heard from Kate Green, whose book Once Upon a Time I Lived on Mars is coming out on the 7th of January. Now, hopefully that has whetted a few appetites, especially amongst our younger listeners who might now be pondering a career in space. So high time we brought in our next guest, Vinita Mawaha-Madil, founder of Rocket Women, which

really just wants to inspire women all over the world and give them advice on working in space and technology. Vinita, good morning to you. Hello, good morning. Thank you for having me on the show today. Great pleasure. Now, you were somebody who I gather was inspired by Britain's first astronaut, Helen Sharman. I was, absolutely. And I remember sitting in the library when I was a child and I found every book about space that I could and had them piled up next to me. And in one of the books I was reading, Among the stories of shuttle missions and NASA astronauts,

I spotted an image of a young woman in a spacesuit with a British flag on the arm. And the caption next to it said, this is Helen Sharman, the first British astronaut who actually flew to the Mir space station nearly a few years earlier. So even at such a young age, there was a woman in front of me who was born in the UK,

who had studied chemistry. And actually, she replied to a radio ad about calling for astronauts and she beat 13,000 applicants to go to space. So I think for me in that moment, I realized that that woman could be me when I was older and maybe I could be an astronaut too. And I think even at that young age, I think that really changed something inside me. And she showed me that my dreams are possible. And although I didn't know it yet, she became a role model to me and helped me to get to where I am today. Well, I think so people know exactly what they should aim for. Just tell us, Vanita, what did you study at university, for example?

Actually, which A-levels did you do? I did biology, chemistry, physics and maths. So all the sciences. So I knew I wanted to be an astronaut, but I didn't know was how. So this is a bit geeky, but I printed out the NASA astronaut guidelines from NASA's website. And I was around 11 or 12 from the library. And I glued them to the inside cover of my secondary school folder. And I think these are really a daily reminder of how to reach my goal. And I really set my focus on achieving them.

And the first guideline said you need to have a bachelor's degree in engineering, biology, physics or maths. And so knowing this, I studied maths and physics with astrophysics at King's College London. And actually on that course, only three girls graduated on the course. We're really close today. One went on to be an astrophysicist. One is a science teacher, and I work in the space industry. Actually, whilst I was at King's, I learned about a fantastic organisation called UK SETS. And there's UK students for the exploration and development of space. And through this organisation in the UK, and they're also global as well,

I met space professionals for the first time, some of whom I actually went on to work with later on. But your day job, what is it now? Right now, I am a project manager at Mission Control in Canada. So a space exploration and robotics company focused on mission operations and artificial intelligence. So in the past, I've also been really fortunate to be based at the European Space Agency's European Astronaut Centre to work on a skin-to-project there, helping the astronauts and training them to use the experiments on board the International Space Station before they fly. And also when they're on board the space station, we help them

to carry out those experiments and provided advice, in addition to actually commanding and sending commands up to the International Space Station and actually controlling those experiments as well, which is really incredible. And I was very lucky to do that straight after graduating. Wow. Well, that is pretty remarkable. Is it your ambition then to be an astronaut yourself? I think I would love to go to space if I had the chance. I think right now we're really fortunate in that we're really on a precipice in the space industry where for this generation that are studying today and also growing up, they're really the Artemis generation. So we had the Apollo generation years ago, and now this generation are actually going

to see the first woman step foot on the surface of the moon, which is absolutely incredible. And I can't wait for that day. We have the commercial space companies around the world that are helping people to go to space, the Virgin Galactic, Blue Origin, or a few, just to be able to have that perspective of seeing the Earth at borders and having that overview effect, as it's called. Yes. So just in terms of the whole industry getting better for women or more inclusive generally, have you seen real change even in the relatively limited amount of time that you've been in the business?

Absolutely. The Space Agency is really changing right now and things are changing for the better and it's becoming more accessible and diverse. So in the 2013 NASA astronaut class, for example, it was a 50-50 ratio of male to female astronauts that were selected. And I think right now the NASA astronaut corps has around 30% female astronauts. And the most recent 2017 astronaut class actually had five girls that were selected out of a total of 12 astronauts. And actually, two of those astronauts that were selected were actually 29 years old.

So if you think about it, that's close to 10 years between completing year 12 or 13 at secondary school to actually being selected as an astronaut, which is pretty amazing. Actually, you put it like that. That is extraordinary, isn't it? But not impossible, clearly not impossible. No, absolutely, it's definitely not impossible. I think there are incredible opportunities there

really to make a difference. But also apart from that, I think we need everybody in the space industry. So I think even if you want to be an accountant or work in communications or in management or the economic side, I think there's room for everybody in space. Thank you very much indeed for sharing your enthusiasm

and your expertise with us. We appreciate it. That was Vinita Mawaha-Madil, who in the future, you never know, could be doing a Helen Sharman and being an astronaut. But let's face it, she's already doing some pretty phenomenal work. Let's talk then towards the end of the programme

about the cultural significance of space and the moon. The inspiration that all this stuff has given so many great singers and songwriters and writers generally, folklore, myths, legends. So let's bring in Dr Nelly Benayoun Stepanian and also Karine Polwart, who is a folk singer. Welcome to you both. Nelly, you are a member of the SETI committee. Just for anybody who's forgotten, what is SETI actually trying to do? So that SETI stands for the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. The idea is to, well, figure out whether or not we are alone in the universe. So it's been there for quite a long time. Yeah, it's still going.

I think that's the exciting, you know, element. And I'm not one of the scientists there. I'm actually the one that is trying to figure out ways I can actually get members of the public involved with the search and involved with all of the incredible kind of array of scientists and science that are involved inside the Institute. where do you even start with looking for exoticeal signal, you need to start understanding as well maybe how dolphins communicate between each other or how whales communicate between each other. Okay. We occasionally get these reports of signals have been heard and for a while it's all rather intoxicating, isn't it? And you think, oh, maybe this is it.

But actually, honestly, how would we cope, Nelly, if we were contacted? What do you think would happen? Well, there is actually a protocol and that's what these... Who's in charge of that protocol? Actually, I'm not the most familiar about the protocol about the city search, say. But I'm more about like what will happen if an asteroid was to impact us. I made a movie about it called Disaster Playground, where you follow the entire chain of command, right?

Up the ladder until you arrive to the United Nations. There is like a conversation there. But the reality is when I did this film about asteroids, we realized just asking them each to perform what they will do and who will they call on the chain of command, we realized that there was massive flows throughout the entire process. And I think this is where culture is so important because you need, you know, theatrical practices.

You need people that are going to teach you that within the United Nations and within the places where, you know, decision making are taking place. You need multiple voices to actually train academics to think differently about their procedures and question it. And question it, of course. Let's bring in Corrine. Corrine, I know you've written about all sorts of subjects connected to all this,

but where did the fascination start for you? Well, I guess it started as a child. You get a great view of the stars from where I grew up. Where was that? It was in Stirlingshire in central Scotland. But I studied astronomy for a year at university. And I guess that really whetted my appetite. And I had a wee bit of an epiphany when I was on tour as a musician about 20 years ago in

New Mexico in the States. I made a flight in a tiny plane over the very large array radio telescope in the desert in New Mexico and it was just the most incredible experience. It's the installation that's in the film Contact that Jodie Foster stars in. So there's all kinds of cultural stuff bound up with that place and the whole idea of humans making contact with alien life. I think that's really what sparked my interest in the kind of culture around space,

but also the science of it and trying to make sense of the science as a non-scientist. But also as a songwriter, the moon and the stars and space are such iconic, you know, motifs and metaphors for big ideas like love and hope and the kind of bigness of life. I think I was four or five when the moon landings happened. I know I watched it at primary school. That was, I suppose, an extraordinary time to be alive when I think aboutings happened. I know I watched it at primary school. That was, I suppose, an extraordinary time to be alive when I think about it, although I was probably a bit too young to really appreciate it. How old are you, Corrine? I wasn't born yet when the moon landings happened,

so I'm a post-moon baby. Yeah, but it is significant, isn't it, actually? It is, and because it means that I'm born in an era where that vision of seeing the Earth from somewhere else is part of the entirety of my life, and it's such a powerful, dominant image. Like, in the course of my lifetime, we have been able, as a species, to see ourselves from outside the planet that we live on, and that's a pretty huge thing.

But I think also, as humans who live here, we have, you know know well before the moon landings for millennia we've seen our ourselves and our lives and our questions and preoccupations reflected back at us from the stars the stars are full of stories like all around the world for example I'm obsessed with one particular constellation I'm obsessed with the constellation of Cassiopeia which is the w-shaped one that you can see spinning around the pole star. And here, the Greek myths are dominant. They tell the story of Cassiopeia and Andromeda, and it's a story bound up with pride and hubris and violence. But if you go to the northern Arctic Circle, the Sami people tell a story of the great elk.

And if you go to the Marshall Islands, the people there tell a story about the great elk and if you go to the Marshall Islands the people there tell a story about the great porpoise so there's a I think the stories that we see in the sky very much reflect what we know and the places that we live in and the things that matter to the cultures that we grow up in. Again, again tonight The only light was stars Through the Velux window Cassiopeia I can see you shine The song takes place in an imagined future

after a nuclear explosion where all the lights go down and the electricity grid goes down and all that can be seen are the stars in the sky almost as if they've never been seen before. And the reason I put these two things together, I guess, is because I'm fascinated by the fact the light emitted by stars is the result of nuclear fusion. So it's a kind of playoff between the wonder of the stars,

the might and power, and how they yield heat and light into the universe. Corinne Polwart, thank you for that. And we'll come back to Corinne in a second. Nelly, I think for you, is it the moon that really captures your imagination? For me, the kind of the key element is how can I bring more voices into the room to actually make sure that whatever is going to happen with the Artemis mission, which is a NASA mission, right, to go back to the moon and to actually like allow for multiple businesses internationally to kind of come up with bids so everybody can kind of go and mine the moon for me mine the moon are you worried that the wrong people will be mine it's not just i'm worried it's just i i'm extremely deflated and upset to see that as humanity we've not came up with anything better than just to repeat history

again and again and again. I mean, I think you were mentioning the beauty of the moon landing, right? But here we are like putting a flag of the American, you know, it's a military agency at the end of the day. You know, it's just such a shame to actually just look at the moon as a territory to kind of dominate and to just use as a piece of resources as opposed to actually look at it for, you know, maybe a place where we can completely rethink afresh our system, whether it's economically, whether it's politically, whether it's sociologically. So, you know, right now, like I'm working on a project called Red Moon with doppelgangers,

three families actually that look alike each other, one in Algeria, one in Armenia and one in France. And so you kind of like have this conversation going on between them about, you know, actually what this moon settlement should be looking like. And their vision for the future is very different from the vision that NASA is proposing or the vision that the European Space Agency is proposing. And I think there is attempt to actually welcome some of these voices into the debate, but actually in the reality where I work, you know, if you go to the International Astronautical Federation, or if you go to the

International Astronautical Congress, which is where all of the space agency meets once a year, you realize that we are far, far, far away from actually starting to think in terms of fresh system, question ourselves in terms of what did work and didn't work in nation states and so forth. So you think essentially, it's the same people making the same mistakes, but just again, this time on a different planet? That's absolutely correct. Yes, that's a bit dismal. Karine, what do you think? Sorry about this, Jane. I know it's one of your last show, but I don't want to like bring the mood down. But I think it's I'm being optimistic. I'm saying we need to actually allow for new fresh system to happen. Karine, are you as disconsolate as Nelly? I think I'm being optimistic. I'm saying we need to actually allow for a new fresh system to happen.

Karina, are you as disconsolate as Nelly? I think I am, actually. I mean, I think that so much of the research that is happening right now is in the hands of individual, you know, mavericks and private corporations as well. So it's not just at the behest of nation states or collaborations between nation states. There's a lot of activity happening that is according to who has the wealth to invest in ideas. And I think that means that a very particular class of people are able to pursue the kind of research that's of interest to them. And it's fuelled by their values and ethics.

But I'm hoping you heard some of that first interview with Holly Ridings, did you? A small amount of it, yes. I mean, look, the woman is phenomenal and clearly highly intelligent. She didn't strike me as being one of those sort of gung-ho, expeditionary types who didn't give a damn about the consequences of her actions. She sounded thoughtful and very able. She did, and I think one of the things that really struck a chord at the end was the importance of diversity in terms of the people that are chosen for these kind of missions and these kind of research projects pushing ourselves out into space we're

representing an entire planet and our entire planet of humans is full of very different experiences and ideas and innovations so the the broader, the better. Corinne, thank you for being part of the conversation this morning. Nelly, I just want to end with this. You're the director and founder of the International Space Orchestra. Now, really briefly, what is it exactly? Because you send music into space. Is that how it works?

That's correct. But then it's also completely composed of NASA scientists. This is International Space Orchestra. Go, no, go for launch. And everybody that is working in the agency in different missions got together and every year we perform and they all perform very different piece of you know music so it's kind of like half cacophony and a half harmonic and it really is about kind of questioning always the new missions through music and we collaborate each time with different performers. And most recently it was The Avalanches. That's correct.

The Avalanches, actually, we just released a full album around the idea of the cosmos and communicating with the cosmos. Love from children on planet Earth. That is The Avalanches. Great pleasure to meet you, Dr Nelly Benayoun Stepanyan. Really enjoyed talking to you. I like the music as well. Thank you so much, Dan.

Great pleasure. Right back down to Earth then with part six of the serial. It is The Mystery of Edwin Drood by Charles Dickens. And in this episode, Kate Dickens picks up her father's story. Before the performance, sometimes he sits on the stage in the empty theatre. Charles Dickens awaits his audience. He knows they are the blank canvas on which he is going to paint his picture Oliver Twist Davy Copperfield They are his past

But waiting In the shadows to come Is Edwin Drood Haunting him Gwyn Drude, haunting him. A half year has gone by. No charges have yet been brought against Neville. At Crisparkle's advice, he has moved to London. You're pale, Neville.

I want to see the sun shining on you. To be honest, sir, I can't bear to be out in the daylight I walk at night when no one can see me I wish I had the courage just to... Hush, man You've had enough to cope with I, the murderer, the killer The way they look at me across the street That's cloisterum

And that's why you're in London now Ten thousand faces and not the one who knows who you are or cares. One of them, I fear. What are you saying, my boy? Sometimes when I go out in the dark, I feel eyes burning like points of fire on my back. As if someone is... How could that be?

Aye, it couldn't be. Is it my own guilt? Enough. You are guilty of nothing. And yet, what if... I believe in you. What's more, your sister believes in you. Aye.

And she has borne more looks and sneers and worse on the streets of Cloistrum than ever you did. She is your stout defender. It's true. She writes that she's taking a few days away. Deserved, too. She's faced down a dozen gossips and tattletales, to my knowledge. She fights for it.

You must fight for it, too, Neville. As long as I have her and you who believe in me... You're not alone. Rosa believes in you, and Mr. Grugius, the lawyer, is on your side. Or at least not on the side of John Jasper. You say the name that haunts me, that accuses me.

He's hurt, in pain at the loss of his dear Ned. Perhaps he goes too far, but grief, you cannot question grief. And the answer to that grief is my trial and execution. This is getting morbid, Neville. There have been no proceedings. Mr. Grugis thinks the police will not bring a case. And yet the case remains open. You need a decent dinner and a bit of life around you.

I know an eel pie and mash shop which will answer to our needs. Coton? Sir, really, I... Does it look like I'm asking? Come. Now tell me that hasn't done you a deal of good. It has, Mr Chris Sparkle. You are truly a professor of the art of the positive.

I learnt from a professor of the noble art of fisticuffs, Jack Broughton himself. The fancy's finest. Went 19 rounds toe-to-toe with a giblet pie in 33. He told me, it no use a-moping, matey. I wasn't a reverend then. White needs to get a decent pie and something before he gets to his father. And yet, as they walk away,

the reverend Septimus Crisparkle has an uneasy sensation, as if two points of fire are burning into his back. He catches the late train back and... Excuse me. Sir? You look like you might be able to help a buffer, Reverend. Do you need help, sir? Directions, mostly.

New in town, needs a crib, don't know a crib. Be glad of a word, a place to rest a weary traveller's boot heels. The travellers, sir, by their station here should answer your needs. Answers, and more your chat for questions. But that sounds capital if I say so myself, which I did, didn't I? In your debt, reverends, in your debt. Dictatory at your service. Now, sir, I waste not a second, but spring to action, and good night to you. Very peculiar fellow.

And in sleepy Cloisterham, the days go by and Miss Twinkleton's pupils once more depart this time for the summer and Rosabard is left alone on the branch happy to be so until the maid enters and says that Mr Jasper awaits you miss in the little garden by the sun doyle Oh why oh why did you say I was at home, Mabel? Miss Budd. Rosa, I, uh...

I have been waiting some time to be called back to my... task. Task, sir? As your music teacher. I have missed my favourite pupil. I... I have left off that. But you have so much talent. Mr. Grugier said you had left it because...

well, the shock of... But really, it would be good... beneficial to... resume. Do you see? I do not, sir. I... see it as it is. Done completely. You would have done better had you loved him better. I did love him. Yes, but not quite.

There was, he said, something, or nothing, between you. Fly, as it were, in the ointment. I don't know what you are saying, sir. I wish merely to discontinue. Merely. And I do not wish to be questioned further about it. Yes, yes, of course. Since you wish it, so shall it be. I... I would not. And if you will excuse me...

A moment. I have to go. Stay. Sir, please. Your hand. Hi. Hi. I'm sorry. My notion, Rosa. Miss Budd, please wait. Here. I lean on the sundial. I will take the time, yes? Ah, do you remember? You always found tempo. The... the... Please, sit, and I will stand, sir. Very well, if I must. If love compels, you must.

Sir? You loved Edwin, you say? I think we loved each other in our way, my Eddie and... Your Eddie, mine Ed, but yes, we loved him. Grant me that. Well, yes. That is, yes. My dear lost boy.

And not to know where or if or anything at all that... Would you not see? Can you not see? See what, Mr Jasper? To love what he loved. Yes, not quite loved as love, but as sister, brother, sister. Don't you see what I'm saying, Rosa?

I have no idea what you are saying. You're not slow, I know that. Can you not see that I love you as the love that he loved? You begin to frighten me, sir. We are the sole earthly remains of those who loved my boy. That is what I'm saying. This is wrong. Listen to me.

As you used to, we'll be sat side by side at the keyboard. I never... Do not thwart me in this, Rosa. I will say what I have to say. It is late. I must... Stay. Because Ned loved you, I loved you too. His delight was my delight because I loved him.

Loved him? We were so much more than uncle and nephew. That was always absurd. We were best friends, and his life, his career in Egypt with you, that was the best of me. Do you see, Rose? Of all the finest things that we can do, that we can be, is to be true friends. That is where the genius of human beings lies, in true friendship. That is as true as love. We talked of it so, brother and sister.

Then let us be brother and sister. Let us join ourselves in holy love of him. Make an altar to that bright spirit before which we may kneel together. Rosa, Rose, I am saying, let us love together that which we love apart. Mr. Chesper, what you say, everything you say is... Can't you see? It's monstrous. He made my life something better, as he did yours. Better or worse, my life is my life, sir.

Love me, hate me, despise me, but give yourself to me. To Edwin. Become my wife, and together Ned may be born anew. I will not be consumed by you. And your friend Helena Landless. What about her? Her brother Neville.

Chris Barkle told me he cared for you. A wild boy who might have done anything to get what he wanted. And if he goes down, as he may, what then for his sister? Do you threaten me? I promise you, Rosa. I hold Neville Lawless in the palm of my hand like... a spider I will crush at my will.

But here, all is calm and listen to the birds singing. Give me a sign that you attend to me. Yes. Good. And not a word that we have met and talked today. Go away. This is our fate, our destiny. Don't cast me off, Rosa.

Rosa, no one and nothing may come between the three of us and the child we must give life to. Good day to you then, Miss Budd. When the old cathedral clock chimes one, a very peculiar fellow sits down to his lunch and a lugubrious waitress takes his order. Sir? Chops, I think. Mutton, carrots, lightly done.

The potatoes roasted, I believe, and the endive. The endive as it comes. Sir? A moment, if you will. Sir? I suppose a fair lodging for a single buffer might be had in the town? Sir? Something old.

Old is best, I find, mostly. Old abides. Sir? If you might do me the favour of noting down some addresses? Sir? In you might do me the favour of noting down some addresses? Sir? In my notebook. Here, take a pencil. With pleasure, sir.

And after lunch, out in the town, notebook in hand... Excuse me, ma'am. Am I in the way of Mrs Tope, the verger's wife? And is told by a fortuitously passing lady. You are a very peculiar young man, sir. The verger lives in Cathedral Close. Where else would he live? And his wife lives there too. Which way?

That way. Oh, boy! Boy, stop that at once! Stop what, governor? You know! Exactly what! Throwing stones? It's a very bad habit. Come here. I'll come when you can catch me, gov.

Woody-witty-win! Stay there then and show me the way to Mrs Toad. Woody-witty-, won't show you. Faster than you reckoned, my lethal little friend. I ain't your friend. But for a sixpence. I'll consider it if you let go my ear. It's a deal.

Do you know as I can trust a funny looking gove like you? Trust the money Tastes solid enough Witty witty whoop That's Mrs Toops Up the steps to the Nah straight off the street Up the steps is

Something else Like what? Like the bloody devil Language? That's where Jasper lives. Ain't going near there sixpence or not. What do they call you? Deputy. When they isn't shouting at me. Then you can be my deputy and tell me why you ain't going near that bloody devil. Cos he half strangled me. And when I'm bigger, I'm going to do for him with a bloody great rock. But not today.

Not today? I like you, Deputy. Stay in touch and I think we can do business. With you and old Durdles, I'll soon be a bloody corporation. That's the 19th century for you, Deputy. Here, one thing. Yes? Is that your own hair? Because it looks like a sheep got shorn and they stuck it on your needle.

So what do you see when you see me? I've seized that hair, didn't I? So, you learnt something useful today, my friend. It's what conjurers call misdirection. Now, let's get to it. And you'll be able to hear part seven on woman's hour tomorrow make sure you're with us then live of course on the radio two minutes past 10 and in podcast form later i'm sarah trelevan and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories i've

ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.