Woman's Hour - Women and the Archers: how farming has changed, female scriptwriters, the role of gossip and future characters.

Episode Date: January 1, 2021

Woman's Hour celebrates the 70th anniversary of The Archers, looking at the female characters and storylines that have shaped the programme, presented by Felicity Finch (Ruth Archer). How have the roles of women in farming changed over the last 70 years in the real world and in The Archers? From Jill Archer who is often portrayed more as a traditional farmer's wife to Ruth who is very much in partnership with David to Pip who is a thoroughly modern farmer and appears to be in pole position to inherit the farm. Helen Archer has also made a foray into cheese-making. Felicity hears from Mary Quicke of Quicke’s cheeses, who is cited by Agricultural editor of The Archers as an inspiration for Helen’s storyline. Female scriptwriters only began on The Archers in 1975. They brought a new perspective to the programme, revitalising its profile and cementing its place in the British psyche. One of the first women to write for the show was Mary Cutler. She joins Felicity to talk about what it was like during those early years and her most memorable stories for female characters during her 40 years writing for the show. Felicity also talks to Naylah Ahmed, who has been writing for the show for 5 years.Susan Carter is often at the heart of what is going on in the village of Ambridge and is known as the village gossip. According to a recent study, men and women gossip on average for 52 minutes every day. But Susan’s gossip is often perceived as malicious and small-minded. Charlotte Martin who plays Susan actually works as a psychologist when she’s not on the programme. She joins Felicity, Dr Cara Courage and comedian Angela Barnes to discuss the role of gossip on the show.One of the unique and strange things about playing a character in Ambridge – is that the storylines unfold over years, so you grow old with the programme. Younger characters, as they age, inherit the standing of more established characters, and none of them know where they might end up. So we asked the actor Katie Redford – who plays Lily and Emerald O’Hanrahan who plays Emma to talk about their hopes for their characters in the future. Our guests also muse on the characters who might be missing that they hope might turn up in Ambridge one day. Presenter: Felicity Finch Producer: Clare Walker

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello. Happy New Year and welcome to a special edition of Woman's Hour to celebrate the 70th anniversary of The Archers. I'm Felicity Finch, Ruth Archer in my other life, and in today's programme we're going to be looking at a whole host of ways in which women are connected with The Archers, from the female scriptwriters to the way farming has changed for women since it's been on air.

We'll be remembering some of the standout storylines for the female characters and fantasising about some of the women we'd like to introduce to the show. I'm joined by some wonderful real Archers addicts. First up, the comedian Angela Barnes, down the line from Brighton. Angela, how long have you been addicted and who's your favourite female character? Oh gosh, how long have I been addicted? Well, I was listening from the womb, so it's been a really long time. I've been listening

independently since I went off to university, I think, because The Archers was my way of, for that, 15 minutes a day just feeling like I was getting a hug from my mum. In terms of my favourite character, it has to be Lillian Bellamy. I just want to sit in the ball with Lillian, have a gin and tonic and chew the fat. I'm sorry, Felicity, I feel like I should have said Ruth, but no, lots of people are very fond of Lillian, I think. And Dr. Cara Courage is here with me in the studio. Hello. Cara, you run something called the Academic Archers,

where people actually take the Archers so seriously, they submit academic papers to you for publication and you even hold an annual conference. But you've also admitted you have a love-hate relationship with the programme. I do, and I think that's common for quite a lot of fans. but you've also admitted you have a love-hate relationship with the programme. I do and I think that's common for quite a lot of fans. I love to hate it and I hate to love it in equal measure but I can't imagine it not in my life now to be quite honest. Dare I ask, who do you love to hate?

Oh, I mean practically everybody but my favourite female character would be Tracy. She's an absolute star and she's only a month older than me so I feel that you know she's a bit of a kindred spirit in that sense but love to hate dare I say it I'm really sorry but Pip. My daughter. Your daughter I know I'm so sorry. Well maybe we'll talk a little bit about that later, shall we? And finally, Charlotte Martin, who plays Susan Carter. Charlotte, you're a psychologist when you're not working on The Archers. Tell us whose psyche fascinates you most.

Oh, my goodness. The whole of Ambridge fascinates me in terms of their psyche. But I think I'm quite fascinated with Helen because we have this young woman who's catapulted from crisis to crisis. She's had eating disorders, depression. She's suffered emotional abuse. She's experienced grief. And I'm just really interested to know what gives her her resilience, because obviously she's bounced back now and she seems very happy. So, yeah, Helen for me, I think. And we're going to talk about the role of women and gossip with you later.

No, never. But first, we want to hear about the nuts and bolts of writing for a show like The Archers. Although the first programme was broadcast nationwide in 1951, exactly 70 years ago today, female scriptwriters only began in 1975. At that time, listen numbers had plummeted and so it was hoped that they would revitalise the show and bring in a new perspective. One of the first women writers was Mary Cutler. She retired in May 2019 and is the longest serving writer on the programme. Mary, you started writing for the team in 1979. What was it like then? How many female writers were there? There were quite a lot as it happened because they'd had a relatively new script editor called William Smethurst and he brought a lot of young women writers onto the programme. His line was,

I'd rather employ men, but the girls write better. So that, I think, kind of sums up the attitude that was around at that time. I mean, he got his tongue in his cheek, but nevertheless. But I mean, I remember Paddy, lovely Paddy, Jill saying of the 70s, when you're talking about when it was in a slump, that she would say,

oh, I'll just stand off Mike in the kitchen, shall I? I mean, that was kind of the attitude. It was quite a culture shock for me. Things that I absolutely took for granted about women and what they did in life and so on, I had to fight a bit to get heard along with the other women. They wanted Shula to be the Dairy Queen and I really couldn't credit that they were going to have a beauty contest. I thought we'd gone past all that.

I just said, well, somebody else can write that. I'm not writing it. But alas, she did. I think she came second. Well, also joining me is Naila Ahmad, who's been writing for the show for five years. Naila, how long do you have to turn an episode around for starters? You would get five weeks roughly to write six episodes. From the moment you get the storylines, you kind of digest them. Then there's a story conference. That's one of my favourite times, actually. It's the strength of the show. I think all the other writers are present with the production team. So everybody has an opportunity to jump in if they have any thoughts, feelings, ideas, responses to a story. And through those discussions, the story gets

better and stronger. And there are those things that happen that as a listener, I think, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have done that. For instance, when Emma didn't get her house, maybe because we were buying a house in my own life at the time, I remember arriving at a conference and saying to Jeremy, the editor, OK, I'm not talking to you for five whole minutes because Emma should have got her out. But there's sort of moments like that. But as a professional writer, yeah, you just want to take it on, make it more robust. Mary, what have been your favourite storylines to write for women during your 40 years on the show? Well, I think Elizabeth's abortion, Elizabeth's termination.

Vanessa Whitburn was in charge of the programme then and she gave me that week to write. She was very sensitive about needing, because it's such an emotive subject, all the listeners to feel that one of the characters was expressing what they felt. Elizabeth got to tell Jill and Jill

was completely against it. Well we can actually hear a clip of that now from 1992. Oh mum. Was it something I said? Yeah. I didn't mean to upset you. It's not you. Is it Cameron?

Yes. He might just be having trouble getting used to the idea. You think that's why he hasn't rung? I don't know. I do. He thinks I should have an abortion. What? And then everything will be as it was.

How dare you? I don't know. Oh, darling. Oh, Lizzie. Mary, that was such an emotional moment. It was. It was. Beautifully played, of course. But it was... Oh, gosh, it's such a privilege to write all of this it was so hard for Elizabeth to decide what to do was so hard for Jill to think her daughter had done this and made the

wrong decision which she did think for a long time and then at the end of the week I could feel this coming I didn't want to write it. Shula had been having fertility problems and she had offered to Elizabeth that she would adopt the baby. I'm getting quite emotional talking about it. I had to write Elizabeth telling Shula that that baby had gone and, you know, as you can hear, I'm both a writer and a fan of these people are very real to me and that was really quite tough to do but I did an archers event once this is the strength and wonderfulness and privilege of writing for this program and a woman came up to me and told me

that she and her sister had been in exactly that situation and it had driven a wedge between them and they hadn't spoken for some time and they were both Archer's listeners and when the scene between Elizabeth and Shula was broadcast, one of them rang up and said, that's how I felt and they'd started to talk again and that's just such a wonderful thing to be

part of and to be able to do and so important. Were there any other stories Mary? Ah yes I had Jennifer finding out about Siobhan and the end of the week was would she turn up at the Christmas party you know for the workers or will all that's happened throughout the week, her marriage, her tatters, her child on the way, everything. But no, Jennifer turned up at the party and I gave her a red dress and made her, you know. Well, Mary, let's hear Brian confessing to Jennifer in December 2002. I've learnt to live with it, Brian. I take what's good and ignore the rest because whatever you say, you've clearly got no intention of changing.

So can we just drop it? I can't. Jenny, you don't understand. Oh, please. You don't. My affair, it was with Siobhan. With Siobhan. With Siobhan? It was you? Yes, darling. I'm so sorry. But the baby...

Were you saying the baby? Yes, yes, Rory's my son. Oh, oh, oh, my God. Angela Barnes, you actually remember where you were when you heard that scene. I do. I was on a National Express coach, of all things, going to visit a friend of mine up north,

and I remember listening to it on that journey. Of course, at the time, I didn't know what it felt like to be married to someone for 40 years and, you know, the devastation that would bring to the family. And of course, we've been listening for so long wondering whether Jennifer was ever going to find out. And it's so weird to think that now, of course, that's all come back. we're hearing the repercussions of that 18 years later and that's what's so brilliant about the archers isn't it that he could really play the long game the riffle effect yes over years and years and years yeah i remember people saying at the time oh well it'll be very interesting when rory turns up to claim his inheritance

and we're like oh come off it we're not going to be on for that long are we surely nyla in 1951 they started out with just eight characters and now there's about 80 how easy is it to interweave that complexity well luckily we don't have to have 80 on air every week or in every episode which it makes it a lot easier. But it's really interesting. It's sort of like life, all the people we know and all the people we're in touch with and how we have chapters where certain people are brought into focus because there is a moment in their lives, whether it's a devastating moment or whether it's just a passing your driving test moment, you sort of move towards them and they get the focus for that moment in a way it's lovely because it's like

having that many colors in your palette when you're telling your story and if you need a certain hue you need a certain voice somebody who's very connected or really not connected that somebody can bump into on a walk and they can say something profound that they have no idea what it will mean to the central character in the story who's considering something huge. So I think, yes, it's a proper community of people. Now, I'm sure as some of you will already know, The Archers began as a new way of disseminating educational information

to farmers with its tales of everyday folk in a rural community. It was to encourage food production after the Second World War. But how have the roles of women in farming changed over the last 70 years, in the archers and in the real world? I, as Ruth, had very firm opinions on this back in 1989. I may be married to a farmer, but I don't want to be called a farmer's wife. A farmer in my own right, perhaps, one day, but not a farmer's wife. Oh, don't let Mum hear you saying that.

Oh, I don't mean to be rude. But if I was stuck indoors with only the phone to answer and cakes to make, I think I'd go mad. She does a lot more than just cook and answer the phone, yeah? I know, but I still couldn't do it. I like being outdoors too much. That's my trouble. Cara, you come from a farming background. What do you make of the way archer women have changed through the generations?

Does Jill actually have more power on the farm than we give her credit for? Oh, absolutely. She's a lead matriarch. Her and Peggy together are the ones really controlling purse strings apron strings in quite equal power they're very very powerful women. What about as regards the farming side of life? Well my grandmother was a land girl so she certainly knew what was going on on the farm she knew her way around the machinery and equipment but yes I do remember her having more of a domestic role than perhaps out on the field. And then the generation beneath that, so my father's generation, that family

business really does become a family business. And the women are taking different roles. If we think of the generation now with Pip and with Kate, there are so many more roles available for women across agriculture. So they can both be on the farm and off the farm. Well, I went to visit a woman who the Archer's Agricultural Advisor says is an inspiration for Helen Archer's story. Her name's Mary Quick, and she makes award-winning cheese. She began by telling me about her return to her family farm in the early 1980s. So I was living in London. I was married. I was really missing Devon.

Came down to see my mum and dad, as we did every weekend. And my dad started talking about how amazing it was. The cows eat the grass. We take the milk, make it into cheese. Manure from everything went back onto the crops and the grass. You know, it's a beautiful circle. milk, make it into cheese, manure from everything, went back onto the crops and the grass, you know, it's a beautiful circle. And I said to my dad, just so unbidden, oh dad, can I come back to the business? And he said, yeah, sure, but you have to go to college, you have to spend time on a farm elsewhere. And then I ran up to my bedroom, when my husband had

gone to bed, saying, hey saying hey Tom guess what I'm coming back to the farm and he went oh no did you have to persuade him I mean how hard was that I'm afraid I didn't I just said that's what I'm doing and he had no choice well he had a choice coming or not coming and bless him I'm very very happy that he chose to come back to the farm. You've been working in farming for nearly 40 years. What changes have you seen for women in farming during that time? Well, I mean, women were very much on the margin.

I mean, the first time I went to the Oxford Farming Conference, I think in 1982, I think there were three women and, you know, 400 men and somebody came up to me and said, oh your father must be so disappointed, none of your brothers are going into farming. I have to say I had a sense of humour failure. Do you remember what you said? Dare I ask? No, I think I was just a strapperous young adult. Now how much do you think things have changed? I think farming is pretty a strapperous young adult. Now, how much do you think things have changed? I think farming is pretty traditional in terms of attitudes to women, but the women, it's so crystal clear that some of the best farmers in the country are women.

They've always been around. They just, you know, they didn't come to the top. They weren't seen as leaders. They had to be the sort of power behind the throne or get incredibly frustrated. They would have been absolutely chewing the carpet most of the time. You know, see an idiot make the decisions when you knew how to do it. But the women would have to be doing it, you know, the woman's way,

by cajoling, that old-fashioned woman's way, where you have to be nice and persuade them and flatter them, all that nonsense. So thinking about Arer's characters would you say that's like jill would have experienced jill archer having to persuade their menfolk you know brian having to be persuaded and phil having to be persuaded and flattered and have it be his idea what a waste of time which characters in the archers would you say you identify with at all which Which of the female farmers?

I have to say, I think it might be you, Ruth. We're here among your beautiful cows. Beautiful cows. And we can see for miles. How long have your family been the owners of this land? Since the 1540s. So I'm the 14th generation on this farm. So this looks huge herd. how many cows do you have

well nominal 600 and they're a real mix aren't they well yeah a crossbrood mix because that's what we want well we do the New Zealand grazing New Zealand grazing yeah that sounds very familiar that's what we do our farming system and Brockfield is inspired by New Zealand grazing well that's right it's odd you know the archer seems to do what we do so that's amazing. Am I right in saying that means that the cows are outdoors grazing the pasture as much as possible during the year? Yeah the pastures can get quite pugged with the cows going in when it rains but what we've done here is we've measured the grass in this paddock and they'll eat it down and if they pug

it it's just one little paddock they're about to go in for milking and they'll go into a fresh paddock next time so that system your grass grows 30 percent more i've done many a scene where i've been measuring the grass plate what's a plate meter plate meter i should know and i think pip's doing a lot of that now. At Brookfield, the reason we're doing this is because it's a lot cheaper, as well as better quality of milk. What is the reason that you're doing this here? Well, one of the key things is the cows are doing the work.

They're feeding themselves and they're spreading their own manure. And the other thing is the constituents, the fat and protein, tends to be much higher in fat and protein for our cheese making you tend to get this lovely flavor in the milk and the term you call that technically is called cow breath which you're just thinking of husband breath that you might think not so good but cow breath is this lovely warm animally grassy lovely yummy gorgeous sounds beautiful. And that comes through into the milk. They love you. Well they are lovely. You can see why the Hindus worship cows. Yes. You know they're gentle giants. These are average weight probably 650 kilos and they're just generous, gentle,

beautiful creatures. It's funny the nearer you get to them, the way they move en masse, there's a grace to them, isn't there? They're not glumphing, as you always think of cows. They're not stupid, they're just completely sort of sentient. Isn't that a pretty jersey? Yes. It's nearly pure jersey, isn't it? Honey-coloured and beautiful.

Oh, so sweet. She was such a lively calf, too. Ones with completely white faces, they've got a bit more Montbelliard breeding in them. Do you see there's a couple there? Yeah. And Helen Archer is famous for her Borsuch of Blue cheese and she moved into Montbelliards to make even better cheese. You're famous for your award-winning cheese and would you say the Montbelliards are very much a part of that success?

It's part of the whole mix. You want a nice protein to firm up the cheese and the Montbelliard tends to preferentially give a lot of that strong protein. Sorry, I'm going a bit nerdy, but this is how I spend my life, tasting cheese and thinking, I wonder whether we should make this change or that change and how we can play tunes on this lovely grass-based system. And when was it that you first started the cheese-making business?

Well, it's my mum, actually. My darling mum, she built the cheese dairy in 1973. So for me, cheese has got a Durham accent because there was a remarkable lady, well, she's still around, Val Bynes and she taught the whole of the new wave of cheesemakers how to make cheese I expect she taught Helen how to make her cheese Helen and the Archers So she's from very near Newcastle

Very near Newcastle Near where Ruth's from Near where Ruth is from. That's right. She is one of those remarkable ladies in cheese. Our whole tradition of cheese technologists and they were all women because the people who made cheese were all women on the dairy farms. So it's always been women in cheese making. Well Tessa the d'Urbervilles milk cows and made cheese. You know desirable women were the women who made good cheese and butter. We're celebrating the 70th anniversary of the Archers.

Over those 70 years, do you feel there has been a real change in how much people care about where the food on their plate actually comes from. Well, I think what there was in the 1950s, we have to remember, Europe had been starving after the war. It was about food and food at any cost. And then in the 70s, you know, people started to be aware of the costs of producing food at any cost. You know, the cost of DDT, the cost of piling on the nitrogen and pesticides.

And people started going, whoa, food must have no environmental cost. Actually, that means no food. We have to find a way now. That's what's really exciting. We have food that enhances and supports environment and the planet food that's made from beautiful farms that supports lovely social structures that supports beautiful ecology when you buy those foods you are funding those environments consumers have got all the power show us

what's in here okay so these are the baby cheeses and if I actually turn the light on and then we can do a little bit of time travel. How many are there in here? There must be hundreds of rounds of cheeses. Yeah, well yes. Those cheeses were made in November, these cheeses were made in October. So you can see them starting to grow their beautiful coat of mould. And these moulds are really unique to this farm. We swapped some cheeses over with another cheese maker, Jamie Montgomery.

His cheese has matured here and our cheese has matured there. And actually they tasted completely different. So you get the flavours that belong to this farm. One thing that I'm doing with some other friends in the world of cheese is we're creating something called the Academy of Cheese. All the people in cheese to be kind of honoured and recognised for everything that they do and also to give people a common vocabulary and we're actually now training people all over the world. Together, you know, the archers and what

we're doing and the Academy of Cheese, at the end of that, in the bull or in any pub in the land, you will get served great cheese. And when you say, where's this cheese come from? They'll say, oh, that comes from Borchester Bleu and this is who makes it. And this is the Montbelliard cows that people will know that stuff and find it interesting in the same way that, same way that you can go to a pub and ask for a Sauvignon Blanc. Helen would love hearing you say that. Dare I ask, are there any farming storylines in The Archers that you ever think, oh my goodness, that's really not true to life?

I don't know. I think the agricultural stories are pretty good. But I'm really interested to hear you get on to carbon neutral, net zero and the biodiversity. And you can hear those stories sort of starting to brew, you know. Well, rewilding is now starting to be a bigger story. But it's also, you know, there's going to be this extraordinary thing called net gain. Property developers are going to be required to deliver biodiversity, but they can buy that biodiversity from farmers. So that could be a really important source of funds for farmers in the future.

How much easier would you say it is for young women coming into farming now than it was maybe 50 years ago? Oh, head and shoulders. I mean, a completely different world. And also now there are so many different ways of occupying land. You know, people can have short-term tenancies or they can have agreements different world and also now there are so many different ways of occupying land you know people can have short-term tenancies or they can have agreements or they're all sorts of different ways of occupying land now who will take over here when you retire oh gosh well that is actually quite a complicated question because i'm running the business on behalf of my family. My daughter, I think, would be really keen to come back to the firm. And if that's what she wants to do, she will need to persuade my family

she's the best person for the job. So I feel really torn because I can so get, you know, I want somebody to take this business on and have it grow to new levels. And I also think my daughter would be amazing at that. But, you know, that's a discussion for the future. Mary Quick of Quick's Cheeses, and you can see some pictures of us together with her cheese on the Woman's Hour Twitter feed.

Now, Susan Carter is often at the heart of what's going on in the village of Ambridge, and is known as the village gossip. Believe it or not, according to a recent study, men and women gossip on average for 52 minutes every day. But Susan's gossip is often perceived as malicious and small-minded. Charlotte Martin, who plays Susan, is with us now. Charlotte, the word gossip tends to have pejorative overtones, doesn't it? But is it always negative?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I'm aware that Susan has become a caricature, really, of what a gossip and a busybody is. But it's striking to me that actually the whole Arches programme and the whole of Ambridge gossips, you know, listeners tune into the programme to hear people being talked about and hear about people's private lives. So the whole premise of the programme is based on gossip. But I'm interested as to why Susan in particular has been kind of held up as the beacon of gossip. I'm not sure why that is.

And I do wonder whether it's something to do with her being a woman, being of a certain age and being of a certain class. Do you feel, I mean, she's seen to be the biggest gossip in Ambridge. Would you agree with that, Charlotte? Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Okay, so does this mean she's disliked by the other characters? I think she is disliked because of that. But I think she does it from a good place. You know, if you want to kind of put my psychology head on for a bit and just think about Susan's upbringing,

where it all began, I think her upbringing has actually created a real kind of dent in Susan's self-esteem and status. And actually, I think gossip is her way of trying to connect with people and be regarded as an equal in the village. So I don't think it comes from a bad place. And I think that's where my opinion of Susan and the listeners or a lot of the listeners' opinion of Susan differs. And Cara, why is it that a male character like Brian Aldridge, who could be accused of being a gossip, appears not to be tarred with the same label? Brian is definitely a gossip. There's no getting around that. Brian is a very, very big gossip. Brian is a man. He has status. And his talk would be lazily labelled business talk, more important talk.

It's not the tittle-tattle that you would hear in the village shop. But it is still gossip, whether it happens in the boardroom or not sort of thing. They're completely sort of chalk and cheese in terms of their social status. And that's why Brian can get away with it and Susan can't. Well, Susan often goes so far to sow her seeds of gossip that even Neil, her husband, loses his patience. Here he is in August 2019. Come back here. Don't you shout at me, Neil Carter.

What do you think you're doing? You're as bad as the rest. You tell tales on him and he could end up arrested. Oh, so what if he does? He deserves all he gets. For God's sake, woman, what's the matter with you? Think about George and Keira. What's this going to do to them?

They'll have to know the truth one day. This isn't the truth. This is gossip. Cara, what's the role of a character like Susan within the programme? Does every soap opera have to have a gossip? It's a common trope of soap operas, definitely. When you think of The Archers, though, with those 80 characters, all of those storylines, all of those histories,

to move that along every week, you need people that make the connections, that leak a little bit of information here and there between one group of characters and the next. Susan is one of the ones that plays that role. And are there other female characters, Cara, that you think could be clustered as gossips? Tracy, Emma, this is all coming from Susan's family line, which I feel really bad about saying Peggy, Jill, Lillian. We're dealing with practically all what about Linda, Clary, Angela. There's definitely a class thing isn't there going on because I mean Linda Snell is a terrible gossip but she manages to sort of hide it behind an almost

maternalistic concern for the village when actually it's more concern about her own status, you know. And I think Shula, she loves getting involved in other people's business, whether or not she's been asked to, you know. And again, she can couch that now in her training to be a vicar. And I just think, are her motivations for being a vicar not quite based in gossip? And I think it is their class is what makes them different to Susan Carter is we see them as being more caring people in the neighbourhood rather than just malicious gossips. Angela, gossip also has a role among the fans of the programme, doesn't it?

Oh, yeah. The world of Archer's fandom is incredible. Once you dip your toe into that and get involved, there's so much going on there's the tweet along with the omnibus every Sunday morning there's podcasts there's I have a whatsapp group of friends where we you know after pretty much every episode it'll be like oh what do you think of what Susan said you know oh that was a bit off it's such a community of people especially I think this year during Covid where our own lives have sort of come to a bit of a halt. Thank goodness we've still got the Archers to talk about and their lives are going on. And Charlotte, what's it like playing a gossip? Can a gossip like Susan

ever mend her ways? Oh, I don't think she needs to mend her ways. I think we'd miss it if she did mend her ways and became somebody completely different. I love playing her. I think I get some fantastic storyline. But what I want her to do desperately is to grow as a person, to have confidence as a person. And I don't think she has much confidence, which is why she behaves like she does. Neil has been her kind of saving grace. You know, he's allowed her to have a really secure environment and a secure attachment with someone.

And that's helped tremendously. But I would like to see her grow and perhaps just think a little bit more before she opens her mouth. One of the unique and rather strange things about being in The Archers is that because the storylines of the Ambridge community unfold over years and years, you find yourself growing old with your character. I've aged more than 30 years alongside Ruth,

but believe it or not, I still feel almost youthful next to some of the longer-serving members of the cast. Patricia Green, who plays Jill Archer, will be turning 90 this year, while Peggy, played by June Spencer, will be 102. Younger characters, as they mature, gradually inherit the standing of more established characters, but none of them know where they might end up.

So we asked the actors Katie Redford and Emerald O'Hanrahan, who play Lily and Emma, to talk about their hopes for their characters in the future. How old's Lily? 21. Emma's 35. She'll be nearly 36. Yeah. So she's definitely, she's at a different life stage to Lily.

Her kids are 9 and 15. There's so much ambition in her, in Emma. Yeah. It's so beautiful seeing her kind of blossom, being on the parish council and starting to be a respected voice in the village I think means everything to her yeah I mean I'd love her to have loads more babies and be this massive matriarch of a massive family and I think a shock baby in like 10 years would be really fun but I'd love her to get more into business and to do something where she becomes

like do you know Mrsrs hinch on instagram no she's like this yes i do i heard yeah it's like cleaning guru and she's like a multi multi millionaire now and she's got this huge amount of followers and they call themselves the hinch army and i'd just love it if she was like mrs g you know like she was this big Instagram influencer with some kind of home I don't know it would be really if she was self-made it's her own money but she has this kind of power I'd love that let's hope the writers are listening I want the same for Lily I want Lily to be self-sufficient and strong able to stand on her own two feet. And I think that's looking promising. I think Lily's had a lot thrown at her at such a young age,

losing her dad in the way that she did. I think we're to see more grieving, and I think that will happen as she gets older, because that's life. Sometimes you can't deal with it until years and years later, particularly when you've been bereaved so young. Exactly. And her brother going to prison i know her mum diagnosed with depression it's a lot to be the stable one amongst all of it that's it yeah and i think as well her character with lower locksley it's such a big part of who

she is i'm really interested in the future of Loxley and where she fits in with that. Because Nigel left the estate to Freddie, didn't he? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm no expert in stately homes being inherited. You need to get there. You need to get some research on that. I know, yeah. I mean, yeah.

That's fascinating because actually she's much more suited. That's her role in the village, isn't it? Yeah. She's stepping into Elizabeth's shoes. Freddie's not. He's not going to be able to do that. Well, yeah, my point exactly. She's so capable.

She loves organisation. She loves meticulously planning things. Whereas her brother falls into things and wings it and he gets lower locally where's the justice in that there's none for me anyway there's a different hope for Emma as the actor playing her as what I would hope for Emma as her friend you know like I just want drama and trouble for her but uh but if I'm her friend I want her to be settled successful I want her to grow into that matriarch role I want her to be like Jill and I also I think it's really important as a member of

the working class really of the village I'd love it if she earns a lot of money for herself and buys back Grange Farm on her own terms you know know, that it's, Ed's always going to struggle. But I think Emma's got enough of her mum and dad that she's so upwardly mobile. I could see her buying it back and it being legit. How amazing would that be to really want it back in the farm? Yeah, no, you're right. And I think because of the struggle that she's had so far,

you're just rooting for her the whole way. I hope so. Losing the house and she just wants stability and contentment. And I think, how can you not root for a character like that? What I like about playing Lily is she's got a comedic side to her that's starting to really come out. And she doesn't know she's funny. Which is like her dad

right but I think I want her to experience life and not be held back by her relationships I want her to take chances regardless of the outcomes but I want her to be tested because the more she's tested the stronger and more fearless she'll become. And I think Lily's pretty fearless anyway. And I think for that reason, she's got a pretty exciting future ahead of her. Mary, what do you make of their hopes? I'm so fascinated by that

because I have very strong connections with both Emma and Lily. I wrote Susan telling Neil she was pregnant. I actually wrote the first lines that Emma ever spoke on air when she finally got her voice. And I wrote her proposing to Ed, which was the first, a woman proposing. And I completely agree. I've been banging on at scriptwriters for years

that Emma should be, you know, going back to university. Emma is full of absolute potential, so I should be absolutely delighted if that happened. But with Lily, it's more tragic. Actually, the last week I ever had on air had Lily and Elizabeth in it, and I was so pleased about that it was Lily trying to help her with the depression because my father died when I was young so I have a real connection with

both Elizabeth as a young widow like my mother was and Lily losing a father especially since I'm the person who pushed him off the roof so I feel personally responsible for it. And I think there's so much to discover with Lily. I think she's furious with her father messing about at the roof and leaving her mother in that situation. I'm fascinated to hear the actors just working out, which was the first thing that ever occurred to me, that it wasn't fair that Freddie would inherit and Lily wouldn't. It's even more unfair because they're twins. And absolutely right, she's the one that should. I'm very jealous not to still be writing it, really.

We're talking about this kind of rich history of characters coming into the present. But, Cara, what sort of female characters do you feel are missing from Ambridge? Who would you like to see introduced? Actually, going back to the conversation between Lily and Emma, Emma's got a really good business brain. And I would like to see the Emma that has a nationwide chain of tea rooms come into Ambridge. That would be fantastic. I'm really interested in Rosie Archer and what she could bring in. Who's but a baby at the moment. Who's but a baby at the moment,

but it could be a real cat amongst the pigeons in that Archer's part of the family. It is a real shame that characters like Debbie and that a lot of women have to leave to be successful. And I would like to see a woman in Ambridge that hasn't necessarily inherited something but is actually successful on her own terms. Angela, who's missing for you? I think for me, the one female character that's missing, and I thought she was making an appearance,

was when Fallon decided that she didn't want to have children. And I punched the air with glee. At last, we've got a woman on the archers who doesn't have kids because she doesn't want them, not because she can't have them. But then, of course, we had to have Harrison coming out saying he did want children and there had to be conflict. And I would just love to see on the archers just a couple who, without making a fuss, just decide like my partner partner and I, that we don't want kids. And it's not a big deal. You know, we have plenty of other drama in our life, but we're not represented, even though loads of my friends are the same as us, have just made an adult decision not to have children. Charlotte?

Yeah, well, I think both Angela and Akara both kind of piqued me to the point here, because I agree. What we need is a solid female role model who doesn't buy into all the preconceived ideas about what a woman should be and how she should behave. I'm thinking particularly what would be rather nice is a woman who owns her own farm, who's not married, who just gets on with it and keeps everybody a room for their money. That's the kind of person I'd like to see. Naila, as one of the writers, you're about the only one here with an actual chance to change things. Who would you like to see?

Well, there's an actual chance to change things, but then I shouldn't be sharing it with any of you. Oh, come on, come on, come on, come on. What I will share is I've always, always loved the British countryside. And I've always, always lived in the city, always lived in Birmingham. And the relationship between people from the city and how they see the countryside is one that I'm really interested in. But also as a Pakistani British person whose father's family had a rural setting, they were all farmers. I would really love a British Asian farmer. Do you know what I mean? Somebody who makes that

decision, but has the historic connection in their own family and finds that in Britain for themselves. And I would love a matriarch in that setting, whether it's clashing with or whether it's befriending or whether it's frenemying, if that's even a term, the Jill Archers and all the matriarchs already in the Archers, you know, who has a history that comes from another place, but who then finds a home in the British countryside. There's so much possibility in that idea for me, but that's all I can say really. Well, who knows? Watch this space, eh? Well, I'm afraid that's where we're going to have to leave it. My thanks to Mary Cutler, Naila Ahmed, Dr. Cara Courage, Charlotte Martin and Angela Barnes. And now for the drama,

The Mystery of Edwin Drood. The story reaches its inevitable conclusion. Cloisterup! Cloisterup! Excuse me. Thank you. My stop. Excuse me. Neville Landless returns to Cloisterup. Well, now it comes to it. Where it all began. We see what you're made of.

And where it must all come to its end. And thus, all must come together on this night. Septimus Crisparkle returns home to find... Rosa? I remember last Christmas, when we were all together, singing, playing. However do you come to be here? What is it? What happened?

Mr. Grugius. In London, at the station. He said it was the strain. His heart. Not... No. He is weak, but being looked after. He said it was the thorn of anxiety that got him at last.

Then why are you here and not with him? He wouldn't let me stay. He knew how important it was. We sent a telegram from London to Helena. I don't understand, Rosa. To save a life. To save two lives. What are you saying? No one knows where he is.

Neville? I fear he has murder on his mind. Well, Dick, you said it was urgent. I got a message from London. It seems the game is a footmix. Then best we get to it. You know what you have to do? I do.

Well, if something goes wrong, we improvise. If I need to leave a note, can you read? Yes. No. Draw a picture. You. May I come in? Yes, of course.

Here, dry yourself. I have warm punch. No matter. I am... Please, oblige me this. Let me offer you what small hospitality I can. Very well. I will accept your hospitality, sir. For now.

That's all I ask, young man. I'll not offer a toast. I don't think you can accept one from me. Do you blame me for that, Mr Jasper? Not for a moment. You've come from London? As you must be aware. Your friends will be concerned.

They don't know. She hates you, you know. I see. At last you come out with it. She thinks you're monstrous. In the garden, the sundial, the things you said. Please, apply to me. What did I say?

She did not, could not bear to... Recall? Yes, recall. And you shall answer. I am trying, but you seem confused. You will answer, I swear. You insult. Insulted.

And yet you say you do not act on her behalf. Your lying words. Remind me, what words? The words you never heard? Her word is sacred. Her beauty, her goodness. Oh, enough of this flimflam. Sugar and spice. May I read you something? I'm sure you'll find it interesting.

I am not yet. I'm not yet. I will not. I... By the way, it's the poppy. Opium in the punch. Obviously you're not used to it. It will help you relax and listen and yet not sleep.

This isn't... It's not right. It's... Listen. Edwin is murdered. I now swear and record the oath on this page that I will never more discuss this mystery with any human creature

until I fasten the crime of the murder of my dear dead boy upon the murderer and that I shall devote myself to his destruction. I shall stand upon the tower of my righteousness and cast down the guilty one. You are insane. But come, Neville, you are interested in things, are you not? The cathedral tower. I'm sure you'd love to see it. There's a fine view. Why, old Dirtle says on a clear night

you can almost see heaven. Come. Let me help you. Come. Come. Come. Oh, hurry. I fear the worst. Have faith, Miss Budd. We shall prevail. Jasper, we must see you. Oh, come on, sir. Come on. Gone away. Jasper. Mr. Jasper. Nothing here. Is there any message? Any... Rosa. Mr. Datchery. What are you... The same mission as you, it seems. Looking for Mr. Jasper.

And... Your brother! What? Who? I'm afraid the rain hasn't done much for my hair. Or the rest of my costume. Helena, I would have known you anywhere. Oh, my dear, my dear. What on earth? Who exactly? Mr Jas... Ah, Miss... Oh, this is confusing.

No time to waste, Reverend. A wet coat, Neville's coat, he was here. But where now? Give me that glass. Opium. How do you... Ceylon, the smell was... Ah, his diary.

I fear you are right, Rosa. A horror. Where would they go? Where? The weir? Too obvious. Listen. I shall devote myself to his destruction. I shall stand upon the tower of my righteousness

and cast down the guilty one. The cathedral tower. Of course. Where else? But it'll be locked. I have a key. And I need paper. I have to draw a picture. Well, here we are, Mr. Landless. Did I not promise you a fine view? The rain has stopped for us. Let me go, damn you. Oh, I shall have no fear.

Soon enough, my boy, soon enough. Here, come to the window. It'll freshen you up. Why? Why what? Why did you do it? I did nothing. You murdered him. No, you don't understand at all.

I'd been dreaming of something, do you see? For years. Since Ned was... Since we were boys together. Such hopes I had. And then, when... Hold. I fear we're to be interrupted.

Why? Why? Tell me why. Because of her. Because Rosa gave me hope. I gave you nothing. I despise you. Well, Mr. Jasper, here we are again.

Mr. Datchery, a surprise, but perhaps not a very great one. He would oblige me by allowing me to help my brother. He can do you no good now. That meant him no harm. He has a small part to play, that's all. Reverend, if you will. Of course. Neville, my boy.

Here, take my arm. He murdered Drew. Neville, my boy Here, take my arm He... Murdered... Drew... Opium Let me help you He'll get over it How could I have a part in this? What did I do?

I gave you no hope You wouldn't understand Chris Barkle, you should take her away The boy too All of you, go Leave me Not yet But you're right. Reverend, please take Rosa and my brother.

Helena, be careful. He is not to be trusted. What now? We wait. For what? Were you really going to kill my brother? To protect my secret. The murder of Edward Drood? That was an accident. No secret.

Then tell me what is. Why should you know it? What right do you have to that? You loved him. He was my... Not as your nephew. You loved him as I love Rosa. You told him as I will never tell her.

You think not. Love is a very great power, Miss Landless, and we are helpless before it. Perhaps you'll learn that one day. Or perhaps I will kill the thing I love, as you did. You followed them that night to the well, didn't you? I thought the night, the stars. And he told me what I most wanted to know. Rosa had freed him.

I was foolish, perhaps, but I told him of my feelings, my love for him. The love I had always held. He said, of course, old chap, we are the best of... I took hold of him. I shook him, tried to make him understand. I kissed him. He was horrified. He struck out.

I begged. He slipped on the mud and struck his head. He did not move. What had I done? Killed him. By accident, yes, but what came next you did in full knowledge. I had killed the one I loved. And so the story against Neville Landless,

the watch, the ring, left where they would be easily found. Since then I have been in hell. You could not admit to it? If I had told the truth, what would the world have done, Miss Landless? Branded me a monster, not because of his death, but because of my love. Why should that love be a sin? Why? There is no sin in love, Jasper.

Whatever the world says. But in placing the blame on another... Don't you think I haven't been hunted through these months by the hound of hell? In London, I followed the boy, never knowing if I should confess to him or kill him. Ah, this is what we are waiting for. He didn't die, you know, your Edwin. He was badly hurt, very badly. And yet he crawled from the water and lived.

Something happened to his mind. He didn't know where he was, who he was. He was found, cared for, by strangers and found again. Danny! I thought your picture! By my assistant. The urchin. I should have strangled him when I had the chance. But I knew somehow he was part of this.

Part of my end. Here's your octopus dick, Mr. Edwin Drews. There was no death. No crime. There he stands. You really haven't understood anything, have you? And he turned away and fell and lay broken on the ground.

John Jasper had murdered himself as he always intended. He wanted to be buried in Cloisterham, my father. To lie in the cathedral there. He knew, I'm sure, that this was his last journey. The journey that has only one end. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.