Woman's Hour - Women and underpaid state pensions, Women's emotional labour at Christmas, Female footballers and dementia

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

It was found that thousands of married women could have been receiving underpaid state pensions. The Department of Work and Pensions has since been investigating its records and making payments. The former pensions Minister Steve Webb, who first highlighted the issue, believes that many more women, such as divorced and widowed women could be effected, and that the DWP could be looking at a bill in excess of £100 million. We speak to Steve Webb and to financial expert Jasmine Birtles about pension planning, and the impact coronavirus could have on future pensions. The Sage Christmas document says that 'women carry the burden of creating and maintaining family traditions and activities at Christmas'. “Messaging should be supportive of women adapting traditions and encouraging those around them to share the burden and to be supportive of any alterations to adapt for Covid-19 restrictions.” We speak to the behavioural scientist Dr Pragya Agarwal.We catch up with Pip Hare who is currently competing in the Vendee Globe solo round the world sailing race. It is considered to be one of the toughest sporting competitions: 24,000 miles as the crow flies, no help, no stops and no turning back. Are women footballers more at risk of dementia than men? Dr Michael Grey is a neuroscientist who is running a project at the UEA to monitor ex-footballers for early signs of dementia. He’s looking for more women to take part. He joins Jane along with footballer and former Crystal Palace player Freya Holdaway. The Duchess of Cambridge’s new report on children’s early years has revealed the struggle many parents face – from feeling lonely and struggling to find time for themselves, to feeling judged by other parents. How have those problems persisted through the pandemic? Ipsos Mori’s Kelly Beaver and Dr Guddi Singh join us to discuss the report and give some practical advice.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and a hearty welcome, I don't really know why, but to the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday. Can you believe now it's the 30th of November 2020? We're still here. Hi there, good morning. Now, today we're going to talk about pensions. Now, don't turn off.

This could be really important. It could be your mum, your sister, your friend, your auntie. You could be one of the women who's been underpaid their state pension. We'll talk about that a little bit later. We'll also discuss female footballers and the risk of dementia. And we hope to speak to Pip Hare. She's one of the fantastically brave British women competing in this year's round-the-world sailing race, the Vondie sailing race. She is somewhere, I'm told, in the South Atlantic.

Very much hope to chat to her, she said nonchalantly, between now and a quarter to 11 this morning. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. You can text us too on 84844. 84844. 84844. Now, there was a fair bit of social media indignation over the weekend about those sage documents on Christmas. Criticised for sexism because they said, women carry the burden of organising the family

and Christmas traditions during the festive holiday. Some said that was deeply patronising. Other people say it's true. A fair few of you, judging by social media so far, say both are accurate. It's both incredibly annoying and also absolutely true. Pragya Agarwal is a behavioural scientist and an author, and she wrote about this very issue last year, actually, for the HuffPost. Pragya, good morning to you. How are you?

Good morning, Jane. Good. Thank you. How are you? I'm not too bad at all. Thank you. So why do you think people have got angry about this when actually, based on much of our own practical experience, this is true. Women, on the whole, do Christmas. Yes, I think on one hand, it's the reality, but also these kind of narratives actually reinforce that kind of pressure on women. So women internalize these kind of societal

expectations and pressures and feel that they are the ones who have to carry most of the labor of Christmas. Although we know that is a reality, especially during lockdown. We know 40 percent, women did more than 40 percent of childcare and all the emotional labour and mental labour at home. So I suppose there is an irritation with the fact that there is a societal reality that this is the truth. But also we do not need these kind of expectations and pressures which reinforce the societal kind of narrative, I think. Just looking at what our listeners are saying, Sue says it is both. But to be fair, I expect for some of us, it's a self-appointed burden because we're control freaks. Other listeners are suggesting that women are, quotes,

a little bit more sentimental. What would you say about that? I think, again, there is a gendered notion of emotions that is imposed on us from a very young age. And there is this whole notion of emotional labour that women are more empathetic and women are more compassionate and they can put their feelings aside to take care of other people's feelings, which becomes very heightened during Christmas. Of course, as you have to resolve a lot of conflicts and emotions and you want to create a magical Christmas for your children. And I think, again, we have to see why men are not being brought up to take care of other people's emotions. Do they get the message that it's not their responsibility?

Do they get the message that they can just brush it off, the emotions, and can't talk about it so they don't learn how to take care of other people's emotions? So I don't think that women are more sentimental. Some women are, some men are. But I think it's that whole gender notion, that story that's created from a very young age, that girls are nicer and more kinder and more compassionate than boys. Yes.

I should say we've also had a fair bit of comment from listeners who say, first of all, I'm a man and I absolutely do my bit. And other women speaking up for their partners, their male partners and saying, no, they do a lot. This from Alice. This year, I wrote a list of presents we need to get for each family member. I gave it to my husband and informed him that I have resigned my post as head of present procurement. I think that's brilliant. It's quite a dull and laborious business doing the presents, isn't it? There's no getting away from that. Yes, I think so. I think you have to be, I mean, it's not just the relatives and the families, but also the schools and nurseries where children go

there. You have to think about who to give Christmas presents to and what kind of things they would like. And I think it's just taking the time to be thoughtful presents to and what kind of things they would like. And I think it's just taking the time to be thoughtful about it and to think of everybody's needs. And I suppose it's enjoyable on one hand. It is. It's nice to do that. But then it becomes kind of, again, a story in most households. I know in my household that you just feel like you are the one who does it better and then you're doing it again and again every year because the other person feels you do it better so you can just do it and it's clear it's evident that you're enjoying doing it so why not do it again yeah well maybe we ought to acknowledge some women get a tremendous amount of pleasure out of doing Christmas and good luck to them a listener did say earlier actually which

something I read saying that never buy a big table because if you're fortunate enough to have a house big enough to contain a big table, you're going to be the one who always does Christmas. How about this from a listener called Kath? A friend once said to me, Christmas is something women do to other women, to other women.

I think that's very interesting. Yeah, there's a lot to unravel there, isn't it? I suppose perhaps there's on one hand, there's also the pressure created from social media or the beautiful posts that maybe women are more active on social media. There's a whole perception of kind of moms tweeting and Instagramming about things they're doing, creating these pleasant family situations and images that this whole competition becomes a competition about who's doing Christmas better, I suppose.

I think so. I get plenty of assistance if requested, but it's the thinking about what needs to be done to know what assistance to request, which is the burden. And I think that's absolutely right, isn't it? Absolutely. I think that's the mental load. And I think sometimes I resent that people say, why didn't you just ask for help? But actually asking for help takes a load and pressure as well. And sometimes you don't want to ask for help. And I think a lot of women feel like that, that they would rather do about the emotional load of organising what's safe this year? Because I think a lot of people will have been involved already, sometimes in some quite difficult conversations, particularly with older relatives, about what is going to be safe and right to do this year.

Any thoughts on that? I think we have to follow the safety procedures. I think we're still having a high risk of it. We have to be safe ourselves, but protect others as well. And yes, it is very emotional during this time, but it is just one time of the year. And I think personally, everybody has to consider that festivities and rituals can be celebrated at any time of the year. Personally, I feel that. So it can be done.

We know we have Zoom and we know that we have all the virtual platforms that we can celebrate on. But I think everybody in the family has to think about what they can do to actually make it easier for the other people in the family, rather than one person carrying the emotional load or the mental labour or even the physical load of making it a beautiful Christmas for everybody else in the family and resolving these issues. Why can't we just try and do an adequate Christmas? That's always been my ambition. And I've occasionally succeeded. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us, Pragya. Why can't we just try and do an adequate Christmas? That's always been my ambition. And I've occasionally succeeded. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us, Pragya. Take care of yourself. Thank you. Appreciate it. That's Pragya Agarwal, behavioural scientist, author of an interesting book called Sway, if you'd like to know more about her. It is interesting, isn't it? Various mentions there of the mental load. And a number of listeners also did say actually that they are a bit martyrish, they're inclined to be a bit of a

yuletide martyr and they think their mother may have been one too look, not my view necessarily any thoughts on that? At BBC Woman's Hour if you want to take part and you can text us on 844 OK, on to pensions, I did warn you

but this is important. Are you a married woman who's been underpaid your state pension? Possibly. The former pensions minister, Steve Webb, first highlighted the issue back in May. And the Department of Work and Pensions has been investigating records and in some cases making payments. Divorced and widowed women could also be impacted by this. And it's thought the DWP could be looking at a bill in excess of £100 million. Some of that money should be, could be, coming to you. You never know. Steve Webb is now a partner at the company Lane Clark and Peacock. And we'll have a quick word too with Jasmine Bertels, financial expert and director of Money

Magpie, the money information site. Okay, Steve, how many women potentially are we talking about here? And who are they? Good morning, Jane. Yes, we're talking potentially tens of thousands of women, very difficult to be precise, but I think that's the sort of number. We're talking about women who come under the old state pension system. So that's women born before the 6th of april 1953 so aged about 67 or over and basically it all dates back to when the system was designed around the second world war and the assumption was many women would depend on their husbands in retirement and so in theory when you retire and when your husband's hit 65 you can get 60

percent of his basic state pension so about 80 £80 a week. And many people do, I'm not suggesting for a minute that the system doesn't work for most people, but we've found thousands of people who are not getting even that basic. I mean, it's not a king's ransom, not even getting that basic £80 a week or so. Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. Is it £80 a week on top of what they would get as an individual as part of their own state pension? Broadly, instead of. So what tended to happen was that many women of the generation we're talking about, and again, I'm generalising here, but many perhaps didn't have much paid work or paid the married woman's reduced stamp. So they didn't build up much pension in their own right. So

they might retire at 60 in those days and get a pension of, I don't know, £40, £50, whatever, that sort of figure. They could then, when the husband turns 65, go on to a pension of, let's say, £80 instead of what they were getting before. And since 2008, that process should have happened automatically by computer. The computer should have just done it. In too many cases, that never happened. Oh, I see. So if it didn't happen to you, you wouldn't necessarily have known it should have done. Absolutely, because the system is so complicated. If you're getting £62.43, how do you know if that's the right amount or not? So and there are two situations that are quite important here. One is if your husband turns 65 after 2008 and there there was lots of dates here. It's really important. Yeah.

After March 2008, if your husband turns 65 after that date, the computer should have just given you this money. If it didn't, you're entitled to it all the way back, 10 years back dating, thousands of pounds. So that's one group. The second older group are those where the husband turns 65 before March 2008. And back in the day, you had to phone up. You had to phone up to ask for this uplift. And if you didn't, you didn't get it at the time. You can still phone now, but they won't backdate it more than a year.

I see. So to what degree then is the DWP culpable? I should say we've got a statement here. We are aware of a number of cases where individuals have been underpaid state pension. We corrected our records and reimbursed those affected as soon as errors were identified. We're checking for further cases and if any are found, awards will also be reviewed and any arrears paid. From that statement, Steve, it sounds as though they're on the case and they're doing their best. It's a start and they're only doing it because we've chivvied them, because frankly, they've known for years that individuals weren't on the right amount.

And basically what happened was I came across individual cases being underpaid. I tabled a freedom of information request, got some figures. I estimated, as I say, tens of thousands underpaid, pressed them and eventually they've agreed that there are enough people that they're going to trawl their own records. But they haven't paid out to a single person who they have found. All the people they've paid out to so far are women who've phoned up. They haven't even started yet paying out, you know, proactively. Right. OK. And that does sound completely unfair because so many people get, as I hinted at at the beginning, so lost in all this business, so confused by it. And I just want to briefly bring in Jasmine and we'll come back to Jasmine a little bit later.

Jasmine, have you known about this for a while? Well, no, only from articles that I've read based on Steve's research. And so, yeah, it's come as a surprise to me and I am pretty shocked by it. I have to say I'm not massively surprised, but I am shocked because, you know, we expect the state pension to be there to be what we need. But in many, many cases, particularly for women, it's not.

All right. Well, Steve, we've talked about married women who might be in this situation. What about women whose partners have died or who are divorced? And there are two big things to look out for there basically when you are widowed they should look at your basic pension and increase it to take account of your late husband's contributions and you can also inherit some of his other bits of his state pension so a crucial question to ask yourself is when you were widowed did your state pension get reviewed did it go up if it didn't that's well worth digging around and we've had a small number of cases of women getting six figure 100 000 plus refunds what because it didn't happen yeah so going back going back yeah go on sorry i was just going back decades you know literally someone who was with

her 20 years ago they just never did the reassessment uh and now they're owed a fortune now you know i'm not suggesting this is massive scale, but it clearly is worth checking. So that's widows. For divorced women, if you're divorced and then retire, in theory at retirement, they look at your ex-husband's record, take account of it, everything should be fine. But what I think is missing is women who divorce post-retirement. So you're drawing a pension, you then divorce,

you have to phone up, you have to tell them you're divorced, and then they'll reassess your pension. And I think many divorced women post-retirement don't do that. Okay, I'm going to ask what I hope is not a stupid question. Is this a cross-UK thing? Could it have happened to anybody, regardless of whereabouts in the UK they're living? Absolutely. Right, okay. So this isn't something that's devolved in any way, this is a central issue. That's right. Yes, it's essentially the same system across the UK. OK, so what should anybody who's listening now who thinks, oh, hang on a sec, this might be me. What should they do, Steve?

We've created a website calculator on the LCP website and a third of a million people have already used it. And the purpose of that is to to avoid people wasting their time you know we've I've gaveled all the way through this you may not have caught all of it sure get your figures out go to the website and check and then if it is you you can phone the pension service ask for this to be looked at they've got a backlog of thousands they're going through but they are processing cases they are paying money out I reckon they've paid tens of millions already um but you know so check it on the website and or phone them up. Can you do it for your mother or your sister or your auntie? You can do it for somebody else, can you? I do often hear from, you know, sons and daughters, grandchildren and others.

Sometimes you have to obviously have authority to speak on the phone, but it's always worth helping people because not everybody's going to check our website and that kind of thing. So, you know, family members, I mean, frankly, if we are allowed to get together at Christmas, I know it's not the most gripping topic for Boxing Day. No, to be honest with you, we're always groping around for things to talk about on Boxing Day afternoon,

Steve. Well, there you go. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Just hang on in there. There is a link on the Woman's Hour website as well, I should say. But just to illustrate this is real, here's Sandra, who says, I'd wondered for years about my measly pension of 57 quid a week. After reading a newspaper article in the. A month later, I got a further £500 interest payment and my weekly pension payment has been doubled. Well, that's Sandra. So that

was clearly well worth exploring. Jasmine, I suppose all this illustrates that, as Steve said right at the beginning there, that the state pension system is not fit for a 21st century world, is it? It's just not designed in the right way. It's not. But, you know, to be fair, it's costing the nation a huge amount. It costs £100 billion a year at the moment to fund. So what the government has been doing for the last couple of decades, really, has been to move the burden from the state to individuals and

to companies. And this is why we've had auto-enrollment that came in a couple of decades ago where companies have to give access to a pension to their employees, to most of their employees. And this is really the future, I think, not just in this country, but across the West, that we're moving the burden of pensions and of retirement savings from the state to the private sector. What about the impact of coronavirus on pensions? What about that? Well, you know, in some ways, certainly it has impacted. When we talk about pensions, we talk about corporate pensions, private pensions. If people were not able to work as much as they would have done, that may have affected their pensions. Some people were able to and their pensions weren't affected.

You could also argue that because the stock market has done quite well over this year, certainly towards the end of the year, that's actually done well for pension funds, because the majority of pension funds are invested in the stock market. Right. But what about people who, I mean, the reality now, look at what's happening in retail, for example, is that unfortunately, a fair few women's jobs, if I can call them that way, will be going. We all have to face that. How on earth, if you are, for example, really financially up against it, possibly juggling a couple of zero hours contract jobs, for example. First of all, what about your national insurance? Are you paying enough to get a state pension with work like that? You may not be. It's a very good point.

With women, one thing to be aware of, certainly, and this is a different aspect, but women in the past have not had very many years of national insurance payments because they've taken time off to have children or look after a relative. But now you can apply for credits. Now, if you are unemployed, then that is harder. But one thing I do recommend is that people go on to turntous.org to use the benefits calculator

because you can certainly have all sorts paid. And it's quite possible that there are benefits and there are national insurance payments that could be being made on your behalf and you're not aware of it. So if you are unemployed, do make sure that you are clear on all the benefits that you could be having and the national insurance that could be being paid for you. And just a quick word on women in divorce settlements and their partners' pensions. I gather that all too often men's pensions are not included in divorce settlements. They often aren't, but they could and should be.

Some legislation just a few years ago said that partners, and it tends to be women who have the lower income, of course, not always, but it tends to be, and that women actually can have access to their partner's pension. And in seven out of 10 cases, divorce cases, this has not been looked at. So long as you haven't paid, signed off the agreement, so long as you haven't signed off the agreement, you could potentially go back to that agreement and make sure that you do put that in the negotiations because it's the second largest asset that most couples have. Jasmine, thank you very much. Jasmine Bertels from Money Magpie. There are links on the Women's Hour website, by the way, if you feel this could be

of relevance to you, but you've got slightly lost in all the detail quick question finally to you steve um francis asks if someone has died can their pension still be reviewed and any underpayment paid to their estate any idea um yes i've had one or two cases like this so these would be the people where basically the computer should have given them the money it never happened and their heirs in principle can still get that money okay thank you very much um i came over all paul lewis during that conversation but i hope you got some of the basics out of that and there are links on the woman's hour website because honestly this will apply to some people listening right now or to a friend or relative bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. Thanks to Steve Webb.

Now, let's go to the Vondie Globe solo round the world sailing race. Began on the 8th of November and back at the end of October, I talked to some of the British competitors, to three actually, all three of the British female competitors. One was Pip Hare

and she joins us now from her boat Medallia. Pip, how are you and where are you? Hello yeah I'm very well and I'm currently in the South Atlantic at a sort of latitude the same as the bottom of Brazil and I'm heading east towards South Africa around the bottom of St Helena High. You make it all sound so simple. When will you get to South Africa? I think it's going to be about six days for me probably. The weather in the South Atlantic at the moment is really tricky. The usual high pressure is very far south and we are governed by an ice limit as well so we can't we can't go any further south than 45 degrees

because of the risk of icebergs so it's a little bit tricky but i'm hoping about six days you say we um we cannot emphasize enough it is you and your boat and nobody else so how are you getting through the days pip is it going quickly oh i can't believe how quickly it's gone. I mean, there is so much to do. You know, sailing, this boat is 60 foot long. The mast goes up 29 metres from sea level. It's a huge amount of sail area to manage.

So just changing sails alone can take me a couple of hours. So just managing that on my own is a big physical effort and then on top of that there's all the navigation um problem solving i've got some maintenance to do so at the moment i'm surrounded by epoxy um because i'm going to do a laminating job when i get off the phone to you so there aren't enough hours in a day really yeah just take us through some of the detail of your laminating job. What does that entail? So unfortunately, yesterday, I lost one of my hydro generators. So one of the big things for us, obviously sailing around the world on our own, is we have to generate our own power. And I use a hydro generator, which is like a little sort of outboard engine that goes over the back of the boat. Only when the propeller turns, it puts energy into the boat instead of the boat driving the propeller.

And I have two, one on each side of the boat. And yesterday, the bottom dropped off one of them, which was a bit of a blow because I've now lost a third of my potential power generation. So today, the second one, I'm going to basically wrap it in carbon and epoxy and make very, very sure the bottom can't fall off that one. Right. OK. I wish you every bit of success in the world with that and indeed with the rest of the race and as ever ever, in total awe of your strength and courage. But very best of luck to you, Pip. Do you know how you're doing in the race,

or is that not really why you're doing it? No, it's definitely why I'm doing it. I mean, the race is an interesting race because across the whole range of the fleet, there's 33 boats started, and there's a range of 20 years of design and I'm in the second oldest boat in the fleet and I think currently

I'm lying 19th which is actually incredible for my boat because I'm racing with boats that are 10, 12 years more junior than mine so I'm doing really well and my objective is to do as

as well as i can in this boat and and learn lots of lessons for 2024 brilliant great stuff take care of yourself thank you very much that's pip hair uh live from her boat medallia in the middle of the south atlantic and she just casually mentioned hoping to hit south africa in about six days time honestly i unblocked my dishwasher on Saturday and I thought that was an incredible achievement. The drain was a bit blocked. Thanks for your interest. Right, speaking of which, ladies' toilets is a subject

we hope to discuss next week on the programme. Have you got an anecdote? Can be funny, can be sad, actually. Something that happened in a ladies' loo. Tell us about it. bbc.co.uk forward slash women's hour. Now, a landmark report back in 2019 revealed that former professional footballers

were three and a half times more likely to suffer from dementia than people of the same age range in the general population. You may have seen some of the game yesterday and the pretty awful injury to the Wolves player Raul Jimenez. He was taken to hospital with a head injury. This morning, we just want to talk about whether women footballers might be at more risk, actually, than men. And you might remember a conversation we had on Women's Hour about concussion earlier this year.

Dr. Michael Gray is a neuroscientist who's running a project at the University of East Anglia to monitor ex-footballers for early signs of dementia. And he now is looking for more women to take part. And former Crystal Palace player Freya Holdaway is just 31. She's retired from football. She joins us first as well, actually. So we'll talk to Freya in a sec. Michael, tell us briefly about the research you're doing. Yes, good morning. And thanks for the opportunity to talk about it. Essentially, we're looking at aging football players over the age of 40.

And we're tracking their cognitive health or their brain health over a long period of time. So at least for 10 years and hopefully for longer than that. And the idea is that everybody's brain health declines. We all know that as we get older. And what's really important is the rate of decline. So we're asking the question, does a footballer's brain decline to a lesser extent or to a greater extent or the same as someone who has not played football. And what have you learned so far for sure about the risk of dementia and in particular heading a football? Well we know from the study that to which you referred just a moment ago and that came out it's called the field study. It came out in October last year. We know there is a three and a half times greater risk of dementia for,

at least for the men who are playing. We would expect it will be similar, potentially even worse for women. But our research has just started. I can't say anything just yet because we've only really been collecting data for a month. Right. Freya, what position did you play? Because I think that's quite important, actually. Yeah, so I played centre-back, so classic header in position. Yeah. And when you were heading the ball,

well, did anybody, when you were quite a young player, did anybody mention the potential risk to you? I think, well, I started playing at college football in America and out there, there's a lot more around, you know, doing the impact test and things like that to make sure, you know, you are, you know, you have your base for concussion level. And we used to do like certain neck exercises for S&C. So I think out there it's a little bit more prominent, but I think that stems from the American football side. But over here in England, I wouldn't say there's any extra exercises that we would do to potentially prevent any concussion. You have retired from the game because you were hurt. Is that right? Yeah, it's definitely something that played a massive part into it and whether I still wanted to play and potentially my family and that threw something later on in life that I couldn't control now.

So what happened to you when you were playing? So I had three quite severe concussions within 18 months um of playing um and it was one of those things that you know the first concussion everybody sort of takes on the chin as such um and you know I'm quite quite bad bang to the head um and then my second one again it was another impact um player to player head injury um and then that one was a little more scary because I felt fine as soon as it happened. And then because it was a friendly, I got subbed straight off. Right. And then it was literally two minutes later, I then had a seizure.

So that was quite frightening. And then my third one, literally, it was my head of the ball, I would say incorrectly, like with my technique. And then afterwards, I was like, I don't feel right. And I think because I'd had like quite two quite close in timing that I just decided within myself, you know, this isn't right. I need to take some time out of the game to make sure my head is right before I start headering the ball again.

Right. It's interesting that it was you who made that decision. You didn't feel a pressure from the club or from medical advisors to quit? Oh, no, not at all. And that's something I'm really pleased of, that Crystal Palace were really, really supportive. And if I didn't feel right, I wasn't pressured into going back to playing if I wasn't 100%. Right. So, Michael, why do you think women might be more vulnerable? Are brains different? Is it the skull? What is it? So, yes, our brains are different. There's both physical and physiological differences. I think one statistic that's really important from Alzheimer's Research UK is that twice as many women have dementia than men in this country.

Now, part of that can be explained by the fact that women live longer and dementia is more prevalent the older we get. But not all of that can be explained, not a two-to-one ratio. And so then we have to look at the physical differences. So Frey was nicely saying in America she was doing neck strengthening exercises. This is one thing that we know from a physical side can help prevent the mechanical instances of the wobbling of the brain, which is the thing that induces the concussion but we're now starting to understand that there are other physiological differences in in women compared with men that that that may explain this as well so as an example uh there's some studies suggesting that because of hormonal differences your your fluctuating hormones in in women make people more vulnerable at different times of the month. What to the impact of a football landing on their head? Yes. I mean, essentially what's happening when a football hits the head is that there's a little bit of damage.

We call it a sub-concussive insult. So it's not you don't get the symptoms of a concussion, but there's still damage. And because of the changing hormones at certain times of the month, it appears that women are more at risk. But I guess the truth is, Michael, you don't have enough women involved in the study to know this for sure, do you? No, that's absolutely correct. We don't. We have about 35 professional males and about 40 amateur males. And as of a few days ago, we had 11 amateur women joining. But in order for us, I mean, what we're trying to do is have a longitudinal study with a lot of data, with a lot of people joining. And, you know, the only way we'll be able to say anything where anybody will take us seriously is if we get more people joining so this is really a call um specifically for for women if you've played

the game at a professional level or even at an amateur level you know please have a look at our website scoresproject.org if it's something you think you might like to do please join us yeah Freya I gather is too young to take part is that right freya yeah so um i spoke to dr gray uh via email and because i'm 31 i sit outside the age bracket um i believe it's 40 plus is that true michael you she's too young yes that's correct and and and the reason for that is it's all to do with finances. We need money to be able to run the project. I do want to decrease the age down to 30, but we need to get more funding for me to be able to do that.

Right. Well, I mean, I suppose we ought to ask just how supportive have the footballing bodies been? I mean, there's certainly a suspicion, Michael, that they are, well, reluctant to get too involved. I mean, there's certainly a suspicion, Michael, that they are, well, reluctant to get too involved. I mean, what would you say? Just because, I mean, we know the Premier League, for example, it's a brand, it's an immense international product. It's a good question. I did reach out to the Players Football Association and the Football Association more than a year ago, and they're not interested. But what I can say, really positive, last week, the League Managers Association has joined us.

So, you know, and the League Managers Association is well known for supporting their members, particularly women in particular. They've got really a long tradition of supporting the game, their members and their families. So we're really pleased to have the league managers on board. OK, well, that does sound encouraging. I'm told the FA did support the Glasgow study. I just wonder, though, really quickly, Michael, so many of our listeners will have children, girls and boys who play the game and love it.

Honestly, should children be heading a football? Great question. I do not think children should be heading footballs. I think we need to look at better training before they start heading balls, but certainly young children should not be heading balls at all. I think that we need to have rules, you know, change the laws of the game, similar to what they do in the United States, where, you know, children are simply not allowed to head the ball. Interesting. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. That was the voice of a neuroscientist,

Dr. Michael Gray. And you also heard from the former Crystal Palace player, Freya Holdaway, and our very best wishes to her. Now, the Duchess of Cambridge's report on children's early years came out at the end of last week and revealed that just a quarter of parents really understand the importance of those early years and the potential lifelong impact on the child. And of course, during the pandemic, we all know parenting in all its forms has been that little bit harder. The report's official title is State of the Nation, Understanding Public Attitudes to the early years. Ipsos Mori's Kelly Beaver can join us and also Dr. Gudi Singh, paediatric registrar at Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust. Kelly, first of all, this was a big study. Lots of people took part. Just how many?

So the study has lots of different parts. It had obviously the five big questions that the Duchess of Cambridge launched back in January this year. And the five big questions that the Duchess of Cambridge launched back in January this year. And the five big questions saw an overwhelming response from the British public. Overall, we had over half a million responses to five key questions about the early years. 435,000 of those were people within the UK. But that wasn't the study. That was one part of the overall programme of work. We also conducted a face-to-face nationally representative survey of people in the UK, including a boost of parents with kids under

the age of five. We conducted observational work with families following about the day-to-day lives, qualitative depth interviewing with parents. And then, of course, all of that work done before the pandemic, it was really important that we then went back and spoke to another thousand parents of children under the age of five in October this year, which is where some of the findings relating to the impact of the pandemic come from specifically. Right. Let's just try to find out what it is that parents are lacking. Is it that parents don't, they don't fully understand the potential lifelong impact on a child whose early years have been less than perfect is that what you're getting at here so there's a huge amount of scientific evidence which tells you that the early years that period from conception to age five is absolutely fundamental

it is when the brain is developing the most uh most significant amount of brain development happens in fact in the first two years and And quite simply not enough of us really understand that or appreciate it. That's right. There's only a quarter of people perceive that stage to be the most important, more likely to stay all stages, all ages are equally important or indeed the school age period which a significant proportion think is the most important. Okay so I suppose what we have to focus on is what we all need to do better in those early years to benefit a child and, of course, wider society forever. So, Goody, what do children require in those early years from a parent or carer?

You know, as a scientist and a clinician who has been working on the early years for years, this survey is not surprising in one aspect, because it's telling us that parenting in the UK is difficult. But what it is telling us and what I thought was very interesting is that it's showing us the surprising levels of shame that is now associated with parenting. And, you know, what a child needs is, you know, unconditional love, number one. But it just needs all the basic ingredients for a healthy, happy life. So, of course, you know, you need enough food. You need the basics in terms of survival. But you also need stimulation.

You need what we don't talk about enough in medicine, which is things like talk, love, play, touch. All those things that we would encourage young mums and dads to be doing with their kids. And that's the kind of thing that we need to be talking about more, not just within my profession in health, but in society as a whole. Yes. I suppose a lot of people listening will think, well, yeah, well, I did that. But I guess, is it possible if it wasn't done to you or for you to do it yourself, Goody? That's a really interesting question. And yes, there is a lot of evidence that goes to show that, you know,

what happened to you as a child stays with you. But that doesn't mean that things can't change, right? One of the beautiful things about being a paediatrician is that children are malleable, they grow, they develop, and there is always an opportunity to change what will happen to them. Now, raising children is, of course, one of the most challenging activities that we can engage in as human beings, right? And it is, in fact, I think, the most important job in our society and economy. And yet, you know, what this survey is showing us is that it's actually really difficult. Now, the fact is that when things are difficult for parents, they are not able to provide some of these, what we would consider very basic things for their children.

And I think what this survey is saying is that even though we are the fifth richest economy in the world, we have a situation where many parents are struggling not just to provide the physical resources for their children, but also because they're feeling looked down upon by the rest of society. And that's shame. Why are they looked down upon by the rest of society. And that shame... Why are they looked down upon? So there's a lot of inequality in our society. And I think what this survey is showing, and I think this is what needs to be explored more, is that we live in a judgmental society. People are, and I can tell you this from having seen it amongst my peers, people are very quick to judge other people's parenting. Now, I know from having seen patients in the A&E who have come to me that they are feeling this as a tangible thing,

and it's having real life effects on their children. Women who are coming to me saying, oh, look, my baby's not crying. They won't stop crying. And the real reason being that actually they cannot afford to buy the new nappies that will stop their child from having a nappy rash. And the fact is, people do not feel like they can admit to struggling in this society and actually have to hide behind the medical problems that their children have. And this woman was middle class. This woman had a job in the media. And yet she was at this situation where the pandemic had pushed her to a point where she wasn't able to make ends meet and had to come to the NHS in order to have her her needs met. That's actually very sad and a glaring illustration of what so many people are up against. That was Goodie Singh. And you also heard from Kelly Beaver talking about that huge report actually into early years and our relative lack of understanding of the impact of those years on the rest of our lives.

I think more to come on that subject over the next couple of years on this programme and no doubt everywhere else. So loads of stuff from you today. Thank you. I know I often say we appreciate it, but we really do. I think there's a lot of interesting items on the programme today that hit home. A COVID Christmas. Lindsay says, I've got to sit on my hands to stop myself redoing the tree after the kids have finished. I am my own worst enemy. Yes, I think Lindsay's pointing to the fact that some of us, some women do have that I do it better thing.

We also have that I'm so tired because I'm doing everything thing going on at the same time so you can't really win can you Juliet says the remark that Christmas is something women do to other women reminded me of hearing my five-year-old in the middle of the Lord's Prayer saying loudly forgive our Christmases and forgive them that Christmas against us. She is now 55, but this memory is still vivid. That is brilliant, Juliet. Thank you. Leo says, I'm glad you remember to keep mentioning that things are not the same in every household. Well, I do try, Leo. Sometimes I yearn to be one of those men who apparently are all over the country,

not playing any role in the running of their homes. I really enjoy and value Woman's Hour, but now and again, it does leave me feeling a bit resentful. A lot of us men play our fair share or more, just as a lot of women. People, eh? Yes, Leo. Well, we did say that. I did say that. Yes, I know some men do a lot of stuff. I just think on the whole, some women do a lot more. Oh, I've said it. Sandra says, yes, we do or did. We started for our children and then we keep it going.

Men in my family don't really notice all my efforts. This year will be different. Time to make some changes. Many mothers are so used to taking charge and wanting to make a perfect Christmas that they don't delegate or discuss with everyone what needs to be done. Clearly with young children that's a challenge but if one simply defaults into master controller mode every year no wonder it all falls to one person. Kath said the last baby I had was on Christmas day. I was in the kitchen on Boxing Day making the meal the family had missed and they say we're the weaker sex. Well not on this programme they don't Kath but yes I have to say that is pretty remarkable. Well done. From Claire we saw our mothers taking on the burden so we decided

from the start that we would share the planning and making and our mums would never have to do it again but just sit back and relax everybody chips in as well somebody will bring the pudding the crackers or the cake claire says i've had 22 years stress-free wow what must that be like uh christine says um 95 true this i believe we women often make rods for our own back because we think it's what everybody wants. Quite often something different and better emerges if communication is engaged. Affie says, just maybe the message is also for the men and others in our lives that they might like to change their behaviour. Here's something from Claire. Every year my husband says, are we sending Christmas cards this year? Every year I reply, I am. I don't know about you.

He's never written a Christmas card in his life. Fee says, not in my house. I do present buying because I like it. Husband does the food because he likes this, likes it. This year we're having a takeaway, though. I just fancy it. Oh, actually, that's a great idea. And I suppose if takeaways are open on Christmas day that would be a good way of putting some money back into the economy and certainly our local takeaways and restaurants need it don't they Sandy says for my mother's generation it was

a reality this women doing everything and it is for mine as well and now my teenage daughter is much more likely to be preparing for Christmas, buying gifts and getting decorations, etc, than her teenage brother. Helen says, not in our house, we do different things to work towards Christmas and discuss how it's going and sharing tasks. It's always been that way. My partner is proactive and needs no prompting. There must be other men like him. Yes, there are. Sylvia, I think there's some silly suggestions knocking about. One recommended having Christmas dinner last supper style, i.e. sitting along one side of the table. Who's got a dining table or room long enough for 13 people or more? I didn't know. Is that one of the suggestions made for a sort of COVID friendly Christmas to have you sitting that style?

I'm not sure that would be any safer. I really don't know. From Sam, I'm not a control freak. Just know that if I leave it, it won't be done. I hear his voice. Just tell me what needs doing. But even then, I have the burden of the mental load. Yes, that was something that we referred to in our conversation with uh Pragya um flip the coin says on twitter live from the South Atlantic when you talked to Pip Hare and here we go and the sound quality in that interview far better than many online interviews with people a couple of miles away in London. Good luck with your lamination job, Pip. Yes, I absolutely love the way Pip just chatted about that job she was doing.

I didn't really understand it, but it sounded incredibly important. And the fact that she's able to do it herself. Not herself, you know what I mean? On her own, entirely, entirely on her own in the middle of the ocean there. It just boggles my mind. Pauline says, a bit bothered at the conversation taking place about pensions. Be careful about asking for more pension. A, getting more might take you out of pension credit and B, if you're in receipt of housing benefit, more earnings mean less housing benefit. Okay,

I think I'll just refer you to the Woman's Hour website and to the links available there on that one. From Susan, I'm an older state pensioner, which means I get £30 a week less than a younger state pensioner. They're increased every year on a percentage basis, so the gap gets bigger every year. I also paid more contributions. Then the TV licence was taken from the same

older people. I did not renew. That's from Susan, who is, of course, still listening to BBC Radio, but that's okay. Eleanor says, mention of phoning to state pensions number. I have been held three times now for over 30 minutes each time, and I hadn't got through. Having deferred my state pension, I am told I must phone and I can't do it online. That is immensely frustrating. Rosemary says, after I was widowed, I got a payment of £25,000, which had been underpaid on my husband's pension, and nearly £3,000 underpaid on my pension. I had no idea this was due to me. I thought it was a scam at first. Well, Rosemary, there we are.

You're one of the ones who was proactively contacted and helped, so that is good. Penny says, listening to your conversation about dementia in footballers, I think it's a wider issue. My dad played hockey for Scotland and had early-onset dementia, Pick's disease disease in fact, diagnosed when he was just 57.

He was one of, we think, five players in his Cambridge University hockey team to go on to develop dementia. Not just football then, suggests Penny. I wish somebody would look into this. I'm sure they will be doing, but thank you very much for drawing our attention to that. And let's talk briefly about childcare.

As I say, so much stuff from you today. Thank you again. Anonymous says, as an adoptive parent of two children, the older of whom suffered significant early life trauma, I can vouch for the long-term impacts of a lack of early nurture.

Many people think that once a child is adopted, a secure home and lots of love will fix the early effect of loss, neglect and trauma. It just isn't the case. Our experience demonstrates that no matter how much we love our children, and we do, the long-term effects of their early experiences remain difficult, challenging and lifelong. Well, that's actually a very important anonymous email. Thank you for that. That absolutely illustrates the point made by that research we mentioned. So thank you to that listener. On a lighter note, Dan has contacted the programme on my successful dishwasher unblock. Thank you, Dan. It's good to get a bit of support,

actually. He said he did the same, but he had to dismantle his. He says, I've never been so grateful to have the dishwasher back. Also enthusiastic to rinse the plates before they go in the machine. Yes, indeed, Dan. I think I learned a thing or two. In my case, my dishwasher drain had been unblocked by a little bit of stalk from a couple of flowers. It's riveting this, isn't it? I mean, but it's the stuff of life. So we must cling on to what passes for our 2020 reality. This year will soon be over. Thank you all for taking part today. It really helps when you get involved. Apart from anything else, it just cheers us up and makes us realise there are other people out there. Take care.

We are back tomorrow. Hello, I'm Felicity Finch. A quick word in your ear. After a year like no other, many people are facing homelessness this winter. The 2020 BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields is more urgent than ever. This year, St Martin's has supported

hundreds of rough sleepers in London and awarded over 4,600 crisis grants to get people into accommodation and provide basic essential items in every part of the UK. Your gift could give someone the key to home this Christmas. Please support the BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin in the Fields by donating online on the Radio 4 website. Whether you're a long-standing donor or this is your first year, thank you.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.