Woman's Hour - Women and Wigs

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

Hair can be intensely personal and equally political. It can be a sign of confidence or beauty, rebellion or activism. But what about wigs? Why do some women choose to wear them and how significant can they be? Throughout this week we'll explore what wigs mean to a range of different women. First: Wearing a wig during cancer. Approximately 65% of individuals undergoing chemotherapy will experience hair loss as a result. Alex Petropoulos and Angelina Hall both lost their hair this way and turned to wigs. Azmina Verjee works for the Macmillan Cancer Information Centre. The subject of this year’s BBC Radio 3 Free Thinking Festival at Sage Gateshead is Emotion. One of their debates aims to decide ‘What is the emotion of now?’ The academic Hetta Howes argues that shame is the prevailing emotion of our time. We’ll be examining the relationship women have with shame in more detail with Hetta, a lecturer in Medieval and Early Modern Literature at City University, London, and with the cultural historian Tiffany Watt-Smith, author of ‘The Book of Human Emotions’.Anne Acheson was a sculptor who changed medical history by combining her knowledge of art and anatomy. During the Great War, many soldiers suffered limb injuries which were treated with splints. However, Portadown-born Anne created an alternative method - using plaster of Paris. As the Millennium Court Arts Centre in Portadown plans a historic exhibition of Acheson’s work we discuss her importance as a sculptor and inventor with Rosamund Lily West, Research Curator at the Royal Society of Sculptors, Jackie Barker, director of Millennium Court Arts Centre, and Virginia Ironside, Anne’s great-niece.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Helen Fitzhenry

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and thank you for downloading The Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday the 1st of April 2019. Today we talk about shame. We start a series on women and wigs, focusing in this edition on wigs after cancer and chemotherapy. And Anne Acheson, the sculptor who changed medical history. What do you know about her? Well, the answer is you'll know a lot more by the end of this podcast,

we hope. So at the moment, Britain is totally fixated on Brexit, but stuff is going on elsewhere in the world. In Ukraine, a comedy actor now has an impressive lead in the first round of the presidential election. And elsewhere, a woman called Susanna Kaputova has won the presidential election in Slovakia. She's a lawyer, she's 45, she doesn't have a great deal of political experience, but she came to prominence when she led a legal case against an illegal landfill. I talked to BBC correspondent Rob Cameron, who covers Slovakia. He joined us from Prague in the Czech Republic and told me who Susanna is. Well, actually, at the risk of making an interview for Woman's Hour slightly redundant,

I think the fact that she's a woman is one of the least remarkable things about her. Right, we'll end it now. Thanks a lot, Rob. Yes, goodbye. No, no, I mean, the fact is she's incredibly liberal. She's outspoken about her views. She's not ashamed about her openly liberal views on such things as LGBT rights, the rights of same-sex couples to adopt children, abortion rights. It's obviously a hot topic in Slovakia which is a largely traditional and very Catholic country so the fact that this woman who really

espouses these openly liberal views has pulled off this incredible, remarkable political success story in Slovakia I think it's perhaps one of the most remarkable things about it but of course her gender is also extremely significant. How much power will she have?

Not much. The president of Slovakia is very much a ceremonial position, a very representative position. But it's important, I think, in setting the direction of the country. And of course, at times of crisis, the figurehead of president, the head of state, does play an extremely important role Susanna Chapultevar, she really won this election I think in part due to the murder last year

of the investigative journalist Jan Kucziak who was looking into high level corruption and cronyism and links between senior politicians and business people and even organised crime and she says that she was partly inspired to run for office by that horrific killing. And it's really, really convulsed Slovakia, changed its politics and changed its society. And I think people were really calling out for change. And indeed, the current president, Andrei Kiska, who's also a liberal,

he did play quite a significant role a year ago. And I think it's now Susana Čaputová's role as president when she's inaugurated in June to bring this country back together. A bit of a cliche, but really Slovakia is very divided. Right. But it does suggest the backstory here about the corruption and the death that she's going to have enemies, isn't she? She is. In fact, observers are already saying that even though she's come forward with this very liberal agenda, an agenda, a vision of tolerance and a respect, a regard for truth, you know, things that we haven't heard politicians, at least in this part of the world, say openly for many years. But observers believe that her enemies in the more traditional, certainly male-dominated side of politics and the established political parties and officials and judges and so on, they will try and make her life as difficult as possible because there are

many forces in Slovakia who are against such liberal humanist change coming to their country. But it is another example of voters putting their trust in somebody who isn't a politician. Absolutely. And I think that's a sign of just how little trust there is amongst voters in people who are politicians. Because Susanna Chaput, if I fought that election on, she called it even a struggle between good and evil. All the posters said, you know, it's time to stand up to evil together. We can do it. And she wasn't talking about, you know, the evil of one man, one person. And she was really more referring to the evil, I think, of a system that she believes has failed Slovakia and has amounted to a form of state capture, if you like. And she says it's now time really to correct Slovakia's drift and, you know, point it once more in the right direction. Yeah.

She has, I mean, I say she has no political experience. She didn't have any, but she wasn't unknown because of her legal career. Exactly, yes. And in fact, even saying she has no political experience is not entirely true because she did, even Jan Kucyak's murder she was involved in politics she did co-found a small um center-left progressive party called Progressive Slovakia which uh recently won the Amer did well in the mayoral elections in Bratislava and is fighting the European elections so she was part of that she's now stepped down as

as the deputy head of that party. But she's not an MP. She doesn't have masses of money and political weight behind her. So she is an unknown quality. But certainly, yes, as a lawyer, she did come to prominence. She's even been nicknamed, especially by the American media, as the Slovak Erin Brokovich, because she fought this very high profile legal battle against an illegal landfill site in her hometown of Pezinoch, just north of Bratislava. And it was really for that that she that she came to prominence in the eyes of the Slovak public. So she and she won that case. And she won that case. Yes. And I think that really propelled her to, you know, to the to

the public eye. But of course, you know, we can't say that Slovakia has changed overnight, and there are still some of the same old sort of prehistoric opinions and views coming to the fore, even in the wake of her election. I mean, just before she was elected, she was dismissed by the head of the parliament as, you know, this unknown girl. And even when her challenger, the European Commissioner Maros Sefcevic conceded victory. The first thing he said was, well, you know, I think I'll send her a bunch of flowers because the first female president of Slovakia certainly deserves a bunch of flowers. And even yesterday, when Czech TV were doing this outside broadcast in front of the presidential palace, the first thing they did was give her a bouquet. Fine, you know, I mean,

that's it. We're in the Slavic part of the world. It's a tradition. But you do kind of wonder, hmm, have things really changed? Thank you very much. That's our correspondent, Rob Cameron, on the first female president of Slovakia. Actually, I would make a case for anybody, woman, man, anyone, always appreciating a bunch of flowers. Yes, I think we can probably agree on that, if on nothing else. At BBC Women's Hour, if you want to get involved today on any of the topics we're talking about. And we're moving on now to discuss something. And even as I say this, I know that my colleagues in the office are going to be laughing.

I'm going to ask now, without any pomposity whatsoever, what is the emotion of now? I told you I'd deliver the sentence and I have. This was actually the subject of a debate at BBC Radio 3's Free Thinking Festival over the weekend in Gateshead. And we're going to talk now to two women who were due to chat to each other on this subject at the Free Thinking Festival. But sadly, chickenpox intervened. So chickenpox ridden cultural historian Tiffany Watt-Smith is able to join us from home she's the author of the book of human emotions how are you feeling Tiffany? I'm feeling covered in calamine lotion and a bit gruesome but I'm here I'm ready. Lovely

thank you and with me because she doesn't have chickenpox Heta Howes lecturer in medieval and early modern literature at City University in London welcome good to see you Heta Howes, lecturer in medieval and early modern literature at City University in London. Welcome. Good to see you, Heta. Thanks. Let's talk then about why you wanted to discuss shame, why you, Heta, wanted to make the case for shame as the predominant emotion of 2019. So part of it is that I do a little bit of research on the emotion, but more so I think there's quite a lot that we potentially

maybe are feeling ashamed about culturally at the moment. I mean, there's been sort of big campaigns like Hashtag Me Too that have been very influential, sort of big tax evasion cases, big corporations not paying up, sort of politically things at the moment. I know I've just been traveling in Europe and and you know sort of feeling uncertain about things I think there's a lot of um sort of uncertainty but also a lot of kind of embarrassment and then and then more specifically shame around right now but shame has always been with us in one form or another. It's not possible, is it, to say where it started or how it started?

No, I mean, I've certainly not found a start point. My research begins in the medieval, and it's certainly very prevalent in the Middle Ages, more as a tool rather than necessarily a pervasive cultural feeling. So in the Middle Ages, it was sort of seen as potentially quite a productive thing. And my colleague Mary Flannery at Oxford's done some brilliant work on this. But this idea that shame, if you have too much shame, it's crippling, it's sort of debilitating and that's bad. But the right amount of shame can be really positive because it affects change.

And I wonder if we're starting to see that a bit in modern culture as well from sort of social media platforms that if someone's done something that we consider to be a little bit wrong we can sort of publicly shame them and maybe affect some positive change but okay well that's up for debate uh tiffany can you just define shame for us well that's a really interesting question isn't it because it's it's one of those emotions which is quite hard to separate out from some of the other emotions that Heta talked about. So for example, people talk about guilt and shame and how those two emotions slide across each other. And people tend to talk about guilt as a kind of more inner voice. So it's a more auditory emotion, if you like. It's like that sort of horrible, endless, sort of querulous little voice in your head. Whereas shame tends to be associated with the visual, with kind of wanting to hide. So that's one thing that's

important about it. Another thing is that shame tends to be about something that is you, you know, something that you are rather than something that you've done. So you tend to be embarrassed about actions, but you tend to feel shame about who you are sort of deep within yourself. When did the last, sorry, carry on, go on. Well, I was just going to say that also we tend to think of shame as being a very sort of painful, of course, and sort of global emotion. Sartre called it a great hemorrhage of the soul, which I think is an amazing description of this sort of horrible coming outside of what's been hidden. But also, I mean, when I pay attention, as I've done over the last couple of days, to all the times that I feel ashamed, I feel that it's often these sort of little twinges. You know, I feel it in kind of quite minor ways, but almost relentlessly through the day.

OK, give me an example. Well, I mean, there's many of them, but I... First thing... Go on. The day before yesterday, I was travelling up to Gateshead for this festival with my young family. And in the morning I'd woken up and I'd seen a couple of spots and there's been a big outbreak of chickenpox in my daughter's school. And I said to my husband, oh God, I think, have I got chickenpox? No, no, no. Come on, let's go. Let's go. Let's go. So we got on the train and I was calling to try and make an appointment to the doctors. And my daughter said, what are you doing? I said, I'm calling the doctors.

And she said very loudly, is that because you think you've got chicken pox? And everyone on the train sort of looked at me and this terrible. And I think it was shame because it's something very important. You know, if you've got a contagious, you know you know illness you don't travel on on a train you know where there might be pregnant women and elderly people and so on you know so it's that this is a very you know this is an important emotion we feel it when we think we've done something quite seriously wrong um but yes of course you know you can feel it in all kinds of slightly ludicrous situations too uh it doesn't it isn't it something that we also impose on others? We enjoy other people's shame, don't we?

Because it makes us feel a little bit better about our pathetic selves. Or is that just me, Hetta? What do you say to that? Well, I think that's one of the key things about the emotion is it's something that you can create in other people. I think it's more so than some other emotions. It's not necessarily instinctual, but it can kind of be imposed um by by sort of how other people are around you so it might be that you don't realize you're doing something wrong and then someone behaves a certain way towards you and you suddenly think oh no have i and you feel terrible and that and i think that feeling of wanting to vanish that sort of tiffany is kind of describing all of a sudden it's very bodily uh feeling but i think that's where it can be a bit dangerous

because sometimes you know sometimes shame is is is positive if it's like oh I might have done something a bit wrong here I should do something differently but if it's something we shouldn't really feel shame about and if and if the sort of uh feeling is is sort of been imposed but is not fair then that's then that's more troubling what about women and shame the last time I felt something in a public place approaching this I think would be on Friday when I when I was stopped leaving a shop because the buzzer thing went off and I hadn't stolen anything people will be amazed to hear but I immediately worried that in fact perhaps I had in a in a menopausal flurry in fact just picked up something that I hadn't paid for and then the

guy went through my bag entirely legitimately and there was a panty liner which fell out onto the floor of the shop now I mean look why would I care except I know I went bright red yes and it's that thing is that shame I think I think it is shame I think it's and you can kind of sort of check yourself and say oh I shouldn't be feeling ashamed about this this is totally normal and fine and I've been made to feel that there's something wrong with my body by by I mean largely in this instance the patriarchy, right? But that doesn't, the feeling isn't actually tied to what's right and wrong. I don't think it's tied to how we're made to feel in a given moment. But we do know, don't we, Tiffany, that in the past, shame has been used to,

well, to really control the way women conduct themselves. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, we do get this sense that there are some cultures which are more guilt cultures and the West is a more guilt culture. And there are some which are more obsessed with shame. So Japan is usually the one that is described in that way. But actually, I think that that distinction just isn't right. And certainly in the West, I'm thinking about a particular example. In 1867, there was a couple were caught having extramarital sex in the Puritan New England and the woman was made to be present at when the man was being whipped so that quote she

could share the measure of his shame so there is there's an awful lot about it a lot of awful lot around in the history but I completely agree with Heta that it doesn't necessarily relate to what's right and wrong it can often just relate to some general sense that you don't quite understand the rules and somehow you've done something that breaks them. But then you check yourself and think, well, why, you know, what have I done wrong? And also that sudden feeling of,

that you described, Jane, of, oh, have I maybe stolen something? I'm sure everyone can relate to that. The amount of times, and I don't know if that's a gender thing. I mean, I suspect women might feel it more often. But this thing of, well, you know you haven't done anything wrong you know you've bought your train

ticket and it's somewhere in your purse or you know that you um have haven't forgotten someone's birthday and you're just having a moment as soon as something like you're kind of walking out the shop and the buzzer goes off every time I walk out of the shop and that buzzer goes off I think oh gosh did I accidentally steal something we're constantly on the alert for kind of and I wonder if that's a sort of conditioning thing that you know sort of particularly for women to sort of constantly be checking that they're sort of behaving properly. Yeah shameless is a word we still hear a lot about. Generally speaking Tiffany I do not hear that in reference to men right or wrong?

I think I haven't heard it in in reference to men although I or wrong? I haven't heard it in reference to men, although I am interested in a kind of a growth of work with artists and writers who are trying to explore shame. I don't think they're being shameless, but I do think they're kind of enjoying and trying to reappropriate shame. So I was thinking about Fleabag and Phoebe Waller-Bridge's amazing sort of, you know, enjoyment of very shameful moments.

I mean, that wonderful opening image of her enjoying some private time in front of an Obama video. You can just say masturbation, it's all right. No, we rehearse this. And then her boyfriend comes in. And that's an amazing moment because she sort of looks, she looks at us, doesn't she? And she knows that this is a shameful moment

and the character feels shame in that moment. But she looks at us, the audience, and says, you know, we know, we know what this is and we all do this, you know. And I was thinking also about a performance artist called Scotty who ran this wonderful series of events called Hamburger Queen which was a beauty contest which reveled in the beauty of fat people in a very profoundly fat

shaming culture so I think we're sort of getting through these these moments of people trying to understand and unpick shame and trying to sort of represent those shameful those moments that we might feel shame and reclaim them. It's interesting that um we often use shame to propel ourselves to have what we might perceive as higher standards i'm thinking about um quite literally cleaning my front step which by the way i do and i i feel no shame about doing that um also posh people can wear tatty clothes if you don't have much money you want to look smart you feel the need to look smart that that's not insignificant is it no i think there's a sort of um sort of if there is an argument for a slightly sort of uh more productive shame then perhaps sometimes we

can be using it to drive ourselves on but i think what you've hit on there is sort of a sort of idea about gender and privilege that i think often we there's quite some interesting sort of an idea about gender and privilege that I think often we, there's quite some interesting sort of talk about this, articles about this in the media at the moment, that some sort of political leaders seem to be, feel themselves to be beyond shame, that they are shameless in that they don't feel it and they don't seem to be able to be made to feel it. And that's sort of a dangerous potential, dangerous trend. Okay, so I'm going to throw this one to Tiffany. How do we stop ourselves feeling it, Tiffany, if it's crippling us and our development that's an interesting question because i don't really know the answer um you know as heta said you know shame is can be very

very useful and the idea of someone who doesn't experience it at all like a sort of teflon coated politician i mean that's that's a kind of frightening image. But I suppose when I think about it in my life, I feel, you know, there's a lot of shame, you know, because I've got young kids, a lot of shame around parenting. And that comes, I think, from a kind of a lot of very contradictory advice, most of which you haven't read. And there's a sort of generalized sense of doing something wrong, even though you're not quite sure what it is that you've done wrong. And so I think paying attention to those moments and trying to understand, you know, what it is that relates your feelings of shame and to the sort of sense of judgment and where you're getting the sense of judgment from might be the beginning of trying to kind of

get on top of it. And I know in my life, it's a sort of, you know, it's a battle that some days I win and some days I lose. I think the key is talking, it's a sort of, you know, it's a battle that some days I win and some days I lose. I think the key is talking about it then, isn't it? That if we all share these sort of shameful little things that we have inside and bring them out in the open,

by that Fleabag moment, then we can combat it. What was it? You called it private time. Shame means that you didn't say masturbation, which I've now said twice. We'll have to leave it there. But thank you both very much.

Enjoyed talking to you. Tiffany Watt-Smith, I can just about get a whiff of the calamine. Author of the book of human emotions, who very safely, of course, stayed at home. And Heta House was with me. Lecturer in medieval and early modern literature at City University in London. Good to see you, Heta. Now, a bit later in, oh, I should say that if you'd like to hear more about that, then go to BBC Sounds, where there's plenty

of stuff from the Free Thinking Festival in Gateshead over the weekend. Now, for many women, hair is actually rather political, very political. It can offer a sense of identity. It can bring confidence. What about wigs? Why do some women choose to wear them and just how significant can that decision be? The majority of people we know having chemotherapy will go through hair loss as a result. Alex Petropoulos and Angelina Hall both lost their hair after chemo and turned to wigs. Asmina Virji works for the Macmillan Cancer Information Centre and obviously has daily contact with people going through treatment. I asked Angelina to take me through her diagnosis.

I was feeling very, very tired and I just noticed one day when I walked into the shower, I caught sight of myself in the mirror and I just saw a little tuck, which was just under my nipple. And then thought, you know, I think I'll just go to the doctor just so I can be told that I'm wasting people's time. And actually, everything's OK. And as it was, no, they did send me off to the breast clinic. And I was diagnosed with breast cancer, lobular breast cancer. And how soon after that did you start chemotherapy? I had to have surgery. I opted for a mastectomy and it took a bit of time to actually recover from the mastectomy. So although I was diagnosed in the May of 2011, I actually only started chemo in the August. And can I ask about hair loss specifically?

When did you first start to go through that? I decided that I just couldn't cope with waking up one day and all the hair being on the pillow. So I actually got my husband to completely shave my head after about seven days after having the first cycle. And, you know, I can't say that I didn't shed some tears, but the relief of knowing I'd taken control was fantastic. All right. So I want to ask you, Alex, what your take on all that would be? What would you say about that? I mean, it was a weird one for me, I think, because, first off, I used to have really long hair. And it was like, it was a weird one for me, I think, because first off, I used to have really long hair and it was like it was like the one thing I thought I had that was really nice about me,

you know, and I spent hours doing my hair. And yeah, I think I wish I had kind of taken control of that a little bit earlier, like Angelina said, because I did end up losing mine to the point where it was everywhere on my bed one day. So then I went to go get it shaved. And that again, you were so ready to just get rid of it because it was so gross, that there was something quite nice about getting it shaved. So it wasn't, it was only when I got home afterwards going, Oh my God, what have I done? And did you wear a hat or nothing? I tried combinations of things. I tried just a woolly hat for a while.

I tried a nice scarf. And, yeah, so I wore a really nice scarf out on my birthday in February. And we were out on the town. And I just felt like everybody was looking at me like, oh, God, she's a cancer patient. And I just ended up getting so uncomfortable that I couldn't handle it. But we were out in Soho. And nothing goes there, does it? Yeah. And there was it but we were out and so so I was nothing goes there yeah well and there was there was a wig shop next and I was like great let's just go in

and it's like a costume shop so I bought a bright red wig and the guys in the shop helped me put it on so I walked out with this wig on and it was like everybody's staring at me because it's not because I look sick because I look amazing and yeah so that's why I kind of started wearing the wigs. But it was funny, there was one time I, towards the end, it was about April time, so it was getting warmer. So I was like, I don't want to wear my wig anymore. And I don't want to wear a hat. So I was like, do you know what, I'm just going to style it out, because that's all it is. You just need confidence to just go out there. I literally got about two minutes down the road and passed like two 10-year-old kids. And I just heard them behind me go,

ew, she's got cancer. It's like, oh, you can't even get down my road. Is that an impersonation of an American? Yeah, well, this is a British student. Oh, okay, there was a British student. Right, okay. I thought you'd just encountered a particularly unsympathetic American. Yeah, no, no, we are pretty unsympathetic.

But this is one of yours. Okay, right. I wish, very unfortunate, I was looking for some good news there. Angelina, tell me, I mean, were you at any time thinking about just being a woman with no hair? I just didn't feel that I could be that brave.

You know, I totally agree that the thought of walking in somewhere and possibly the whole bar going silent and looking round, it was just too much for me. I didn't want to look like a cancer victim. You know, I know it's right for a lot of people that they just want to wear scarves and hats, but it wasn't right for me. So what did you decide to do? We decided you know I could go and have any colour hair I wanted and any style and why didn't I go and get a few different wigs and it was my way of I suppose putting my two fingers up to cancer and going I'm gonna do glamorous cancer. Can I ask a daft question? Does the NHS supply wigs?

You get a prescription. This is the NHS in Wales, so I don't know whether it's the same in England. Well, I can ask Alex. I think I was given an option for one and I started a process and then never heard back. So I kind of just wouldn't put my hand. Well, as Mina is here with the sort of expert advice,

what does happen? I mean, lots of people wouldn't be able to afford because they're not cheap wigs. No, they're not cheap. So a synthetic wig is free in Wales and Northern Ireland and Scotland on prescription. But in England, there is help for people who are on low incomes. And if you're not on a low income, there is a scheme whereby the hospital can offer you a voucher so it's a part payment towards the cost so unfortunately we hear this phrase a lot with the NHS postcode lottery there is disparity and it does depend where you live and where you're having your treatment. Angelina what was your experience of buying wigs? Very, very good. You know, the proper wig fitters are very sympathetic and are

very kind and caring and make sure that the wig is fitting you properly. Did it really knock your confidence as a woman? I think it can't but help not to. You know, your body has been ravaged. You've lost your hair. I reckon it took about five years to feel more like me again. You know, I have two daughters, and I think that that was possibly one of the more difficult things that they had to contend with. For a time, my elder daughter would not want to walk with me down the road you know in in some cases because I think she was just worried what her friends would think. Yeah what's the advice

on that as me now I'm just saying I hadn't thought about this before but particularly perhaps perhaps I'm generalizing but particularly with daughters I would I would wonder how a young girl would take this her mum going through this. It can be very distressing. And of course, you know, we know that cancer doesn't just affect the person that has it. It really does affect the whole family. And for, you know, for many kids whose mum or dad has cancer, it's a very abstract concept until something physical does happen, like the hair falling out.

And it's only when for a young kid their mum or dad does start to look different that cancer actually suddenly becomes very real for that family. But if you are the mum of the house and you are wearing a wig you don't pretend you're not with children you tell them you show them even. If you can you do because particularly you know when you are wearing a wig because of chemotherapy-induced hair loss, the advice is that when you're at home to have times when you're not wearing it so that the scalp can breathe. And actually, chemotherapy does cause skin changes as well, so you might have a very sore red scalp as well. I mean, not everybody does have these problems, but some people do.

So we do advise having some air to the scalp at home so you couldn't wear your wig 24 7 and hide it from your children or your husband for example even if you wanted to I think that would be a very difficult thing to achieve so yes it's about having a conversation with your kids in a way that's realistic but that doesn't scare them too much. I understand Angelina that when you were going through all this it dawned on you that you didn't have that many good photographs of yourself. Yeah that's right. We realised that there was very little documenting me and if the worst had happened there wasn't a lot left for my children and husband to look at.

So my husband decided to take up photography and did a really lovely photo shoot where I wore all my wigs and also had bald photographs as well, just so that we had a record of what was happening and that felt what empowering very um i think the main thing was he made me look really really good so shame he's married this fellow quite a nice bloke and um it you know it was so lovely actually seeing myself looking good, you know, even though inside I was sort of falling apart. And I could look at these photos and just think, gosh, actually, you know, I'm doing pretty well. Well, Alex, you were a very young woman when this happened to you. What impact did it have on confidence, social confidence? I was not doing well for probably that first week and a half

when I was trying to wear scarves and hats just because I didn't feel good. And it's like I just felt like people were staring at me. But by the time I discovered crazy coloured wigs, that was me taking control and saying, yeah, I look different, but I'm owning it. And that helped my self-confidence for sure. So I would go out with my crazy electric blue wig and rock the town. Alex, you've got a box beside you there on the table. And this is one of your

wigs. Well, I brought two of them. They're exactly the same. They're just different colours. Right. One is shocking blue. Yes, there's my favourite, the shocking blue bob. them okay they're exactly the same they're just different colors right but these are my shocking blue yes there's my favorite the the shocking blue bob um it's a heck of a bob yeah so that's what i was aiming to grow for again and i have the same thing but in a bright purple both lovely shapes and very very impressive uh bright colors you actually wore those out? Yes, yes. These were my everyday work office wigs. You're not a cabinet minister or anything like that, are you?

No, it was okay. I can remember there was one party I had to go to, because most of the time it was like the wigs I can afford. Can I just feel that, actually? Thank you. It's not very nice No, it's a little bit

Feels plastic Yes, well you said it better than I can And the bit that fits on the scalp Oh my goodness, I'd find that irritating Oh yeah, it's not very nice Especially if it's just blank skin Right, yeah Carry on, go on

Yeah, but I figured the stuff that i was could afford was never going to look like real hair so it was like why not have fun with it so that's kind of why i went this way but obviously there are occasions where you're like i kind of need to look like a normal human so i did buy myself one that was kind of just it was kind of a similar shape but it was just a dark brown that one didn't fit very well. And I went to this party. It was a friend's birthday party. And we all started dancing to Bohemian Rhapsody. And I started headbanging at the bit that everybody headbangs on and the wig just fell off right in the middle of the floor. And my friends were excellent friends. And they all started laughing

at me because I was laughing. But all of her friends who didn't know me just saw a group of people laughing at a bald girl at a party. So I can't imagine what they thought. But yeah, so I learned my lesson. I was just like, don't even bother with the other ones. Just wear my crazy ones. Your hair now is, well, what is that colour? Well, it was a bright neon pink, but it seems to have faded to more just kind of regular pink. It's rather a delicate pink. I like it. And your hair is growing back. This is your hair. Yes. So this is almost two years of growth back. And Angelina, how is your hair?

Well, mine grew back. I'd always had very fine hair. So I actually quite liked it when it was very short. And then I started tamoxifen and the drug therapy just got thinner and thinner and thinner. So I decided that I had to again take control and I actually have a weave now. Oh, okay. And how does that work? It's my own hair or what I've got of it is still underneath. And it's like a system that you wear that you pull through your own hair, which actually keeps the system in place. And I can swim with it. I wash it. And it's just like having my own hair. If I want to be proud of myself and feel confident and sexy,

this is the way forward. Angelina Hall, Alex Petropoulos and Asmina Virji and our thanks to all of them for taking part in that conversation. There are links for support and advice on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour.

Tomorrow, we're discussing why wigs are so political for black women and on Friday, how wigs can be hugely helpful when coping with long term hair loss. Any experiences of yours? And we would love to hear them, of course. You can email the programme via the website or get involved at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now to Anne Atchison, the first woman admitted into the Royal Society of Sculptors. She's from Portadown in Northern Ireland.

And she's hugely important because she wasn't only a brilliantly successful sculptor, she changed medical history. There's an exhibition about her opening this Friday at the Millennium Court Arts Centre in Portadown. That runs until May. And we can find out more about her now in the company of Jackie Barker, who's director of that arts centre. We've got Rosamund Lily West here, research curator at the Royal Society of Sculptors. And we can talk to to Virginia Ironside, who is Anne's great niece.

So let's talk first to Jackie. Good morning to you, Jackie. Good morning. In our studio in Belfast. Thanks for getting there. We were glad you were able to do it for us. Tell us about Anne's background in Portadown. What's known about her? Well, Anne came from quite a large family. Her parents are very interesting also. Her mother was a very talented and literate woman who attended boarding school and she had poetry published when she was only 15. She did her exams at Queen's University and she taught at Victoria College. So she was really, for that time, I think it was really quite forward thinking

and she was really quite a surprising woman. She got married to her husband John Acheson at the age of around 26 and he was involved in grain trade and general provisions with his partners and he was also a volunteer fireman. All right so we've got a picture here of a quite liberal educated family and is someone who well when were her artistic skills first discovered well she was born in 1882 and actually her first the first artistic aptitude um in evidence seems to be about 1892 with some studies of her sister's um some pencil drawings from that time so she'd

only been about 10 years old at that time. But actually, there are a number of sketches that survive from that period that just show her to be quite a detail, to take interest in detail. So let's talk then about how she was able to have such an impact. This woman actually changed medical history. What was it she did, Rosamund? In 1915, she volunteered with the Surgical Requisites Association, which was based in a house in Chelsea, near where she lived. And this organisation developed and stored and invented really orthopaedic and medical equipment such as bandages, cradles for arms, baths for saline solution, splints.

And when she was here, she worked with another female sculptor called Eleanor Halle. And here she worked on a new type of splint, which was made from sugar bags. And this was very interesting and very different from before because normally broken arms and legs would be set quite crudely in a sort of one-size-fits- all way with wooden splints and bandages. And sometimes when men returned from the front after their broken limbs being treated in this way,

their bones had set incorrectly and so they would be permanently disabled. And what Atchison did that was different is she made a using her sculptural skills. She used a plaster cast using sugar bags and this was moulded to the limb. So it was light and it could be x-rayed as well. And for this achievement, her and Eleanor Halle got a CBE in 1919. So it's really important work. Yeah, absolutely important.

It must have had an incredible impact on the recovery of the wounded. And it wasn't as though they weren't honoured the two women both got the CBE yes um so but it's she is largely forgotten Anne Atchison isn't she yeah it's a shame um at the Royal Society of Sculptors we're really excited about Anne and we really want her to be remembered because after she got her CBE in 1919 in 1923 she became an associate of the Royal Society of Sculptors, which means that she was professionally recognised by her peers. To be an associate, what we now call a member, you have to be recognised as a professional sculptor.

And when it was first discussed at the Society for Women to become members, her name specifically was mentioned as an outstanding woman. Yeah, but we should say her sculpture was hugely commercially successful. She made a living out of it. However, some people might be somewhat disparaging if we look at it through 21st century goggles. However, tell me, I mean, what do you think of it? What sort of work did she do? She worked in quite a variety of materials.

She was very sort of highly trained in different materials. She trained at the Royal College of Art. She worked in pewter, lead. She worked in bronze. She also did porcelain figures. She's perhaps best known for her garden sculptures that would be lead or bronze. And they would often be, she would be commissioned

to do likenesses of people's children to go in their garden but yeah, you're right, if you look at them they're not very, she definitely was not part of the avant-garde they're not abstracted in any way, they are quite sort of chubby children Cherubs? Yeah, yeah, very much like

Nothing wrong with a garden cherub So let's talk to Virginia, Virginia this was your great aunt. What memories do you have of her? Well, I just remember her in her studio, but I think it must be said that, just to add to all that, that she came from an incredible family and her other sisters were all incredibly illustrious.

They all went to Victoria College, which was the only college at the time that educated women to university level. And one of them was a mathematician. One of them ran a hospital. She was a surgeon in a hospital in Delhi. I mean, at that time, it's amazing. And one of them became head of Victoria College, in fact, ran it, was a headmistress.

So they were very liberated women, all making their own incomes and perfectly capable. She was rather glamorous in her youth, actually. She was a gorgeous creature who went to the Chelsea Arts Ball, and she lived in this studio in Chelsea. And she churned out, to make money, these statues which were rather like 3d mabel luciatel pictures of little girls clutching rabbits and looking very wistful um and masks of people and they are very twee but they sold in their thousands and i really admire her for that yeah i mean also did the bust of gertrude bell at the royal geographic society so a So her proper, more mainstream, I mean, not commercial stuff,

was marvelously done. She had an incredible eye. And I remember her as a little old person in a grey apron. And she'd always give me some clay to work and a little cast to press the clay into so that I could make endless sort of repeats of 3D horses and things. And I'd be given an apron and a box to stand on.

And my mother would leave me there with Auntie Nan, where she went off to a hairdresser or somewhere, and collect me. And I always had a lovely time. And I still remember that smell of clay. That's a fantastic memory of Anne Acheson, the sculptor who changed medical history. And that was her great niece,

Virginia Ironside. Good to talk to her on the programme today. And you also heard in that conversation from Jackie Barker of the Millennium Court Arts Centre in Portadown, and from Rosamund Lily West, Research Curator at the Royal Society of Sculptors. And I should say that exhibition starts this Friday in Portadown. And what I didn't know is that you can visit the Royal Society of Sculptors. Apparently they're on the old Brompton Road in London and you can just walk in and there's free stuff that you can look at there. Now, thanks for your emails about the programme today. The conversation about shame, quite an interesting reaction to this. Jill said, I have felt and carried shame for most of my life.

It seeped into my relationships, affecting my ability to get a well-paid job and created a sense of isolation. Jung was correct when he wrote that shame is a soul eating emotion. After a long time in therapy, I've learned how to connect to this feeling and I've developed a compassionate response to myself which helps to neutralize the toxicity and the inward collapse from Karis you're conflating shame with embarrassment they are different embarrassment is an emotion born of an awareness that you're drawing attention to yourself in an undesirable way which I think you meant by the dropped panty liner anecdote yeah um i've got some cracking anecdotes perhaps the dropped panty liner wasn't among my um highlights over the of my many strolls down anecdote avenue on this program um i sort of understand what you're getting at caris except to say that my embarrassment which yes is undiable, was linked to the shame that we are encouraged to feel about periods and menstruation.

So I think they are. I think they're linked. I think it was relevant. Anonymous, shame from the age of 15 for being hairy. Now I'm 60. Also, as a young wife and mother, shame about my husband being unemployed, not knowing at the time that he was long-term mentally unwell. And of course there was a great deal of shame attached to mental illness, isn't there? Perhaps less so these days, which is good. Judith, a pity that your speakers on shame confused it with embarrassment, which is public, and guilt. Both of these would have been more accurate than the chickenpox example and the bleepers going off.

Whereas shame is secret and about identity, as was mentioned. Perhaps you could invite one of the psychotherapists you have interviewed before to speak on this issue. Shame can be globally crippling and attaches itself to many hooks that are not the cause. Marsha, I've been there. At Gatwick Airport, they wanted me to turn out my pockets and I knew I had two wrapped panty pads in my pocket. The female officer immediately sensed a reason for my hesitation, took me behind a screen and gave me a separate small dish to put these in privately and discreetly. She winked and said we know everyone's secrets but I loved her for the discretion. Yeah I mean the thing is Marsha

I'm and I know I said I was embarrassed about the drop panty liner. We've got to get over this, haven't we? Because we're talking about more than half the population having this as just a fact of all our lives. It's incredible that it can still make us go a bit pink in public.

From Terry, I remember the shame of going to school in the late 80s and throughout the 90s. My mother is from the American South and married my father, who she met whilst working in the city in the early 70s. The shame of being mixed race was terrible then. And I can see the same children catching it nowadays. And I think it's even worse. From Sally, your presenter and contributors are confusing shame and embarrassment.

We're back to my panty liner again. I wish I'd never mentioned that. Surely seeing the panty liner caused some embarrassment, however temporary, while shame is a more lasting sense of having done something wrong. Yes, I do get that. I'll take that one. Right. Let's go on to our conversation about wigs, which, by the way, is carrying on throughout the week.

I did mention, I think, that we're discussing black women and wigs tomorrow and on friday we're talking about long-term hair loss as well uh jane this is lucy talking listening to the speakers on hair loss after chemo isn't this another manifestation of a woman's shame at looking less attractive yeah good point should there be a campaign for more sympathy for shaved heads so people can acknowledge their sympathy? And that might help the women and the men going through this. This is from Gordon. Our neighbour growing up had alopecia and was completely bald. She had a range of wigs to match the occasion, auburn for day, silver for evening and so on. As a boy, I was impressed by her confidence. And this was the

60s when no woman was ever seen bald or admitted it. Isn't it interesting that Gordon remembers all that? From Mary, yeah, the NHS do put you in touch with a wig provider and it is indeed free, but they are not making the really good wigs. I did get one, but I never wore it. This is from Christine. I lost all my hair after chemo. I was fairly young at the time and I was self-conscious. I bought a wig which I wore when I wasn't at home. I live in Wales and they weren't free at the time. It was really uncomfortable and hot in summer, so I didn't wear it when I was at home. It would be great if there was more access to low-cost, comfortable wigs. From Lisa, when I lost my hair because of chemotherapy,

I was grey-haired and in my early 50s. I got a lovely wig through the NHS. Wearing it, I felt younger and more glamorous than usual, but I hardly wore it, as on the school run, it became the elephant in the room. Whilst other mums would readily tell me that they loved my new hat or turban, I found that nobody knew how to deal with the wig. Should they compliment me on it, or should they pretend I wasn't wearing one?

By the way, wigs are also hot and need very careful positioning. I found myself constantly checking that it was in the right place. From Helen, I had chemo and lost all my hair and I decided just to wear a scarf. The worst time was when it was growing back as continuing to wear a scarf it rubbed off the new hair growth. I got far more stares than when I was having patchy regrowth. My hair did grow back totally white and I was told to wait before getting a colour. I just decided in the end to be white and go with it in style. Just actually really grateful to have hair again.

On the plus side, said Helen, I had great hairless legs for two years. From Debbie, some of our family have alopecia. We are discussing that on Friday, by the way, Debbie. Since they were seven years old, says Debbie. So wigs, in my view, have not kept pace with our need. For six years, bandanas were worn instead, and then we had to buy wigs, as the NHS wouldn't fund wigs that were acceptable for a teenager or a fashionable young woman. It was costing £600 every three to six months. A lot more than going to the hairdressers or getting highlights.

And from Wendy, I lost my hair during chemotherapy and had bought a wig beforehand, having been advised it was a good thing to do. A group of friends and I went to buy the wig and had a great day out. My wig, which we call Gloria, became an integral part of me. I wore it every day and put on a woolly hat at night as I felt the cold. Gloria was replaced by Gloriette, a new wig I bought for a posh wedding. Gloriette ended up in Hello magazine. Blimey, it was a posh wedding because the wedding we were at was featured in it and I was in the crowd. Not a bad memory, says Wendy, of my time recovering from breast cancer. That's a great story. I have never been in Hello. Let me just put that out there. So I'm very jealous, Wendy.

And from Martina, hi, I had a wig during my chemo. It was so uncomfortable that I stuck to scarves and hats. However, I now own a wig, which is lovely and cost me just £70 via the NHS. I would like to give it back for any woman who may not be able to afford one where can i do that um martina i hope somebody knows because there should be a wig exchange scheme shouldn't there um it seems like a really sound idea to me let's hope there is one and someone contacts the program so more on this issue later in the week tomorrow um black women and wigs and i think the pressure pressure that many black women feel when you'll hear them tomorrow to have natural hair. Sometimes, though, places of work, for example, can make that tricky.

Again, something we all should know about. That's on the programme tomorrow. Thank you very much for listening and engaging with us today. I hope you can hear either the live show or the podcast tomorrow. You know the way late at night, in bed, in the dark, your tired mind can wander and strange thoughts float like balloons escaping into the sky. Well, Bunk Bed is a podcast where Peter Curran and Patrick Marber find the nearest faraway place from the hurly-burly of daily life, where tired minds can wander. Why don't you come along and eavesdrop and see if you like it. You can subscribe to Bunkbed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.