Woman's Hour - Women Boxers, Naming Sexual Predators, Fathers & Daughters, Sexual Health over 65

Episode Date: November 25, 2022

The comedian Katherine Ryan has been in the news this week after she spoke out on a recent documentary with Louis Theroux about confronting an alleged sexual predator while making a tv show. She says this ‘star’ has sexually assaulted women she knows and despite it being an ‘open secret’ in the industry no one has managed to nail him down because he has ‘very good lawyers’. In the documentary she refuses to name the alleged sexual predator and then was called out on this on social media. But what is there to gain for women who name sexual predators in this way?Comedian Grace Campbell and Psychologist Dr Holi Rubin discuss the complexities of father and daughter relationships with Anita off the back of a new film Aftersun. It stars Paul Mescal, is directed by Charlotte Wells and has been applauded for the way it presents the bond between a father and daughter.Last month women’s boxing made history when Claressa Shields and Savannah Marshall fought in front of a sell-out crowd at the 02 arena to become the World Middleweight Champion. Not only was it the first-ever all female card in the UK but also the first time that two female boxers headlined at a major British venue. Despite this these developments 99% of all boxers are men and it remains a male dominated sport in all areas. One woman trying to change this is Susannah Schofield OBE. With her longstanding career in business and coaching she is using her knowledge, skills, and experience to ensure that women boxers get the same opportunities as their male counterparts, through her organisation championing female boxers. She hopes to harness the growing appetite for women’s sport with the recent successes of women’s football and rugby by convincing the BBC to show women's boxing.A recent report by the Local Government Association said “the largest proportional increase in gonorrhoea and chlamydia was seen in people aged over 65” leading up to the pandemic. But why are older people so often left out of the conversation about sexual health? Anita Rani is joined by Elaine Kingett, 70, who found herself widowed and having to buy condoms for the first time in her 50s and Professor Kaye Wellings, who is currently working on the next action plan on older adults and sexual health for the government.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Harriet Johnson Interviewed Guest: Polly Vernon Interviewed Guest: Grace Campbell Interviewed Guest: Dr Holi Rubin Interviewed Guest: Susannah Schofield Interviewed Guest: Elaine Kingett Interviewed Guest: Prof Kaye Wellings

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We made it to Friday, welcome to Woman's Hour. There's a great new film out at the moment called After Sun, you might have seen it, about a young father and his 11-year-old daughter on holiday together. It's by first-time writer-director Charlotte Wells, and it is an incredible film, especially as your first film to bring out. It explores their relationship, the tenderness, joy,

and difficult emotions of the father-daughter bond. So this morning, I want to hear about the dynamic in your family between father and daughter. Are you a father with a daughter? Tell us about your relationship. How, if at all, is it different to your relationship with your son? Has it changed you? What do you do together? There is so much in the film that I personally could relate to. My brilliant dad was only 20 when he had me and he taught me to play pool and martial arts and chess and he did card tricks and people would often

think he was my brother, which, like I said, all happens in the film. Sorry, dad, I'm talking about you on Woman's Hour. It was going to happen at some point. By the way, my dad is a huge Woman's Hour fan. Morning, Dad. He gave me great life advice too. My favourite being, if you can't afford a round, don't go to the pub. And I live by that one. So I want to hear about your relationship with your dad this morning.

Share your father's stories with me. Let's celebrate the dad's, or not, if he wasn't a particularly good one. You can get in touch with me in the usual way our text number is 84844 or you can go to our website and send me an email like diana in edinburgh who's already been in touch to say i was reflecting just how influential my dad was on the way my sister and i approached life whilst he and my mum had a relatively typical relationship he was actually an ardent feminist when it came to what he believed my sister and I could achieve and what we should tolerate from the outside world. This came to sport, work, our own relationships. I wish I could tell him now because it has taken me literally decades to clock this and properly

appreciate it. But sadly, he died back in 2006. So get in touch with the programme. Tell me about your relationship with your father or indeed your daughter. Like I said, you can message us 84844, email us through the website, or if you fancy sending me a WhatsApp message or a voice note, it's 03700 100 444. We're also going to be talking about female boxing on the programme today and STIs in the over 65s. All that to come. But first, the comedian Catherine and STIs in the over 65s. All that to come. But first, the comedian Catherine Ryan has been in the news this week after she spoke out on a recent documentary with Louis Theroux about confronting a person. She says, I believe very strongly and so do a lot of people believe very strongly as an open secret is a

perpetrator of sexual assault. She says she called the person a predator to their face whilst making a TV show. She claims no one has managed to nail him down because he has very good lawyers. In the documentary, she refuses to name the alleged sexual predator and she was called out on this on social media. But what is there to gain for women, if anything, who name sexual predators in this way?

Well, earlier this morning, I spoke to Harriet Johnson, a barrister and author of the book, Enough, The Violence Against Women and How to End It, about the legal minefield when it comes to naming people publicly. But first, I spoke to the journalist and author, Polly Vernon, who's also spoken out in support of Catherine Ryan on her social media and asked her what she made of what she said to Louis Theroux. I thought it was brilliant.

I mean, I think I love that series and I love Catherine Ryan anyway. So it's sort of a brilliant meeting of lovely things for me. And I thought the interview was generally brilliant, but I was really struck by that whole section because what an incredible thing to have gone through. I sort of love that she had felt she had done something by confronting the person directly and also I'm particularly struck I mean I know we're all really struck by it but I'm particularly struck because I have a friend who has within

the last few months um named her uh sexual predator from a few years ago and watching her go through the whole process has been really distressing because you just don't necessarily get anywhere if you do name them. So this is what you talked about in your post so a friend of yours who had a well you can explain it happened 20 years ago so explain what and what happened and what's happened now. Yeah so 20 years ago she was groped in her office at the photocopier um she uh kind of dismissed at the time as we all did was a different time but then uh over the the years and during me too i think reconsidered also had heard many many other rumors that other things had happened involving the same person so went to uh try and see if she could sort things out try to see if

she could um make a difference she didn't intend to go public she went and talked to the relevant institution the relevant part of the relevant institution that just honestly wasn't particularly interested so in the end she felt like she had no choice but to go public on twitter with it with corroborating stories and the response was pretty much whatever I mean I don't I honestly don't think people didn't believe her I think people did believe her I think they just weren't particularly bothered and as she said to me when we were discussing the Catherine Ryan story naming someone is not necessarily a slam dunk Harriet let me bring you in what yeah I think that's absolutely right and, you know, listening to Polly talk about her friend,

you know, I've talked to my friends, in fact, in the days since the interview happened. And I would say most women barristers who I have talked to have a similar story about a man behaving inappropriately to them earlier in their career, and especially for barristers, because most of us are self-employed. Warnings are either implicitly or explicitly given that you can name and shame this person if you want to. But there goes your career. And I think, you know, so from a social perspective, I can entirely understand it.

I can also entirely understand it from a legal perspective. If we look at what happens to women who do speak out, who do name their abusers, the response is often swift and extreme. If you look at, there's a case of a woman called Nicola Stocker, who years ago posted on Facebook about her ex-husband strangling her. He sued her for defamation and won, not because the court found that he hadn't in fact put her, put his hand around her throat and over her face in fact the high court judge said was very likely that that was what had happened but because the court found that the legal definition of strangling involved intention to kill they couldn't prove that so he sued her for defamation for saying that he had strangled her when on any normal interpretation

of the word he had strangled her and he he won. Now, she eventually won in the Supreme Court. But if you think about the emotional and physical and financial impact that a legal battle of that length has, I think we're entirely right to advise women to be cautious about openly naming violent and abusive men, because the legal consequences can be so severe. It makes you wonder, doesn't it, Polly, how far we have actually come since the whole Me Too movement. Because what Catherine Ryan says in the interview, which I thought was really interesting, is these are the conversations women are having amongst themselves. Yeah.

No, it's absolutely true. I mean, it makes me feel like we haven't really come anywhere. I don't think the thing that happened to my friend 20 years ago would happen now. So I suppose things have changed. But I think we're sort of at a point where we grade assault so uh and again i said this in my instagram post i think if we expect things to be of an epstein epstein weinstein level before we get involved or distressed or feel like anything has to happen if it isn't we're a bit like oh

never mind um i mean who would really who would speak out and the more i think about it though i have nothing to speak out about um i don't think i would i don't think i would go public on an abuser well people are now saying that katherine ryan should should name this person what do you think about that i mean well a she makes the point that it's not her story to tell she she wasn't the victim. And I mean, absolutely not. Why should she? Really, why should she? Why should women stand up and take the flag?

My feeling is that the institutions involved need to really start pulling their weight and start listening to the rumours and listening to the gossip and not shutting women down. My friend didn't want to go public. She wanted something to be done quietly. She didn't want the person involved to be punished, but she wanted recognition of what happened and some idea, some sense that it

would not happen again and that there had been some justice. And Polly's absolutely right, isn't she, Harriet? We have to question the institutions that protect these powerful men, because it's not just as simple as one person against the other it's the place where you work and these men are usually quite powerful and successful absolutely and i think certainly with the with the women that i work for and work with and to try to help them get justice after being abused control is the key issue control is the thing that they feel they've had taken from them through the assault or through the abuse. And control over what happens next is the one thing that they have left. So I always say to any woman who's been in this situation, if he does it again, it is his fault, not yours. And the decision whether or not to report it, whether or not to say anything is

entirely about doing what's right for you. And I think what's really concerning about these public dialogues about the trolling that Catherine Ryan's really concerning about these public dialogues, about the trolling that Catherine Ryan's had, is that once again, we're in a situation where men are behaving in a predatory or abusive manner, and the people we are holding to account for it are women. And all she's done is brought it into the public sphere for us to have a debate about it.

So Harriet, what legal recourse is available to women who, like Polly's friends, might have chosen to speak up about it? Well, I mean, the law can help in all sorts of ways. So there are, you know, employment law can help with harassment at work. The criminal law can help with sexual assault and domestic abuse. But I think one of the problems, certainly, that I see see in my practice where a lot of the women I represent have gone to the police, for example, and have been told there isn't enough evidence or sometimes we do not deem you credible. And there remains the misconception that to successfully prosecute in something like a rape or a sexual assault, you need independent third party evidence, which, of course course is very rarely available because these things tend to happen in private, much, much more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted by a partner than by a stranger. It's much more likely to happen in your home or their home than in public. That is entirely false that you need independent third party evidence. I

have seen successful rape prosecutions brought on the basis of one victim alone um just because that evidence is so compelling but that what i see increasingly in my clients and in the the women that i work with and the women i speak to is because of recent um revelations about police misogyny i say revelations because those of us working in this area have have seen evidence of this for some time but because of things um like revelations of the the whatsapp group in charing cross of the um the baroness casey report talking about ingrained misogyny and institutionalized racism women are less and less likely to want to go to the police because they do think if i go to the police what's going to happen are they going to believe me or am

i effectively going to be re-traumatised by a person whose job it is to protect me, whose job it is to believe me, sitting there in a uniform and saying to me, I'm sorry, I don't think you're worthy of belief. I'm thinking of the women who actually get to the point, Eve and Harriet, where they are with you and have decided to pursue it.

Because like you say, because of various reasons, whether it is not wanting to go to the police, not to go to your employer not feeling that you're going to be believed whatever so many women as we know don't even step forward to report what's happened to them what it must take and what state they must be in to when they're actually sitting in front of you to say let's let's pursue this legally yeah i'm i'm i'm consistently and constantly astonished by the strength of the women who come to me for help. And one of the conversations that we have right at the very beginning is, you know, we do this because it's the right thing for you. Your responsibility is only to you, because sometimes people do become exhausted. They want to withdraw proceedings because

emotionally it takes such a huge toll. And because these legal proceedings are always coming off the back of some other trauma. And and you know legal proceedings are stressful at the best of times but especially having been through trauma that so many of these women have been through um i think it's really important that all of us take as a starting point looking after women who are in this um position supporting them in any way we can professionally, but also making it very plain to them. I think we have a moral duty to make it plain to them that if they do this, that's wonderful.

But if they don't do it and he does it again, it is his fault, not anybody else's. No, absolutely. I mean, just the extraordinary burden of responsibility that women seem to be ending up. I'm seeing other women saying of Catherine Ryan, well, then it's somehow her fault. She's not protecting other women. How do we how do we expose these people if we don't stand up and say the names? It's it's just incredible. It's just as ingrained in women to point the finger at other women, sadly, as it is men.

But we need institutions to change, don't we as harry said i think so yeah yeah absolutely and i think one of the you know one of the hopefully one of the legacies of the last few years um will be institutions changing i see more and more in fact private companies coming to me and saying what can we do to better protect um the women in our business and a lot of them now are implementing even very seemingly very small things like domestic abuse policies that provide, you know, a few weeks emergency hotel accommodation for people fleeing abuse. That's something that companies can so easily do so easily pay for that that actually very rarely get called on. But for so many employees, knowing that that option is

there is really important in making them feel supported. And also it sends a broader message about the culture of the institution, that the starting point is to believe victims and to support them in any way we can. Now, this conversation is happening in a very public space. Lots of women listening to this may be feeling triggered about something that may have happened to them. They may be thinking, right, I need to speak out about this. What should they do? It's a big question. It depends on what way they want to speak out about it. Most women aren't going to get sued by somebody who has abused them because the fear is that more details of it will come out. But there are enough women who are

understandably in fear that they will. And there are enough abusers who will seek to use the court system as a way to continue to perpetuate that abuse. Now, happily, we've got some more safeguards in place over the last few years, things like defendants in domestic abuse cases not being allowed to cross-examine victims anymore themselves, having to have a lawyer appointed to do it. So there are protocols in place.

The first thing I would say is get as much information as you can. Most lawyers are willing to do a free sort of chat about what the options are. And then at least that woman's got the information, she can make an informed choice about what she does next. And Polly, what about your friend who spoke out about this? How does she feel about it now? I think she's enduringly angry, it would be fair to say. And she very much feels like she's over feeling angry with the person in question. Her anger is directed at the institution who just hasn't, it's honestly, it's like they've got their fingers in their ears

um but you know she's a phenomenally strong brilliant person um very very brave so all in all she's doing okay but I have to say I've the messages I've had from other women specifically with regard to the Catherine Ryan thing is it's pretty heartbreaking yeah I had a lot of dms after that Instagram post from people saying, I just really rethought this thing that happened with that guy and I'm feeling awful about it.

And so much of what happens to us as women is stuff that we're sort of groomed to accept as just part of womanhood. I mean, I was, I think I was 24 and studying criminal law before I actually found out that a man groping my bum as I crossed a dance floor in a nightclub was a sexual assault. It's not the most serious sexual assault in the world, but I genuinely just assumed that was part of womanhood, part of being an adult woman in a public space. I didn't think there was anything you could do about it. I'm still not entirely sure that most people would do anything about it if you reported it to a bouncer, but we're a lot more aware about it than we used to be. But so much of this discrimination is something that we are

conditioned to internally blame ourselves for. So our first thought is often, did I lead him on? Did I encourage him in some way? Why was I alone with him? All of these sort of internalised misogynistic thoughts that we have. And then, you you know feeling like we have to just accept that that's normal because it happens to everybody we know that was harriet johnson and polly vernon who i spoke to a little bit earlier this morning if you want to get in touch with us about anything you've heard already 84844 is the number to text now father and daughter relationships what was yours like effortless complicated emotional so many of you getting in touch to talk to me about your dads. Rachel in Leon C has emailed to say, my dad took me to my first gig

aged 15. And for the next 20 years, we went to hundreds of far too loud gigs, drinking pints and getting the last train back from London to Essex like he was my mate. He pressed a copy of Nirvana Nevermind into my hands at age 14. How cool is your dad? Sent me off to university with Neil Young and Nick Drake albums to serve me well. He's just turned 70. Whilst we don't go to gigs anymore due to his hearing loss, we still talk about music constantly and play it far too loud.

What a gift he's given me. Rachel truly is a gift. Well, the reason we're talking about this is because a new film called After Sun, starring Paul Mescal, and it's the directorial debut from Charlotte Wells has been praised for its very open and honest portrayal of a father and daughter relationship. It's a beautiful watch and a special mention to Frankie Correo, who is remarkable as the 11 year old girl in the film, One to Watch. The film highlights the complexities of the father and daughter bond as well as showing the realities of struggle and hidden emotion that often comes along with the demands of parenthood

and raising a daughter, and the beauty and the tenderness of it too. So I'd like to know how your relationship is with your father and how it's impacted your life. Do get in touch. You can email or drop me a text. Here to talk about her own experience is comedian Grace Campbell, who's just embarked on a new YouTube series with her dad,

who's journalist and writer Alistair Campbell, who was also former advisor to Tony Blair when he was prime minister, called Get Off My Phone, as well as her upcoming tour, a show about me, in brackets, and men. Have I explained that properly?

She'll be giving us an insight into her own relationship with her dad. Also joining the conversation is psychotherapist Dr Holly Rubin. Let's come to you, Grace, first. Morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. What's it like as a dad? What's your relationship like with your dad? I mean, we have a really relatively really good relationship we are more I would say he'll probably try and disagree with this but I would say we are more like friends now that I'm an pretty much an adult but it was a really I've

always always loved him so much and know that and known that he's like deeply loved me and I think that's where a lot of my confidence has come from is like how much my dad used to always sort of fight my corner um because I just remember as a child everybody that he worked with saying oh my god all he does is talk about you and that made me obviously feel really special. But I do feel like him being the personality that he is, we've butt heads, like we do butt heads a lot. And that's been something that we've had to, I mean, if he was here, he would agree with that. That's been something that we've had to sort of,

as I've gotten older and calmed down, I guess, we've gotten better at. But when we had a podcast together, we would argue quite a lot. So we've got a very, it's a very close relationship. It's obviously very good because you, like you said, you've got a podcast together and now you're doing this YouTube series together.

So it's good enough for you to be able to work in a public space with him. Yeah, I think, you know, over the last few years, I've made him much more comfortable, you know, talking about things that I think before he would have just like never spoken about. So we do have a good relationship and he's someone who is so willing to like listen and sort of learn. Like, for example, in that in that video where he goes through my phone, some of the things that he finds like most dads would just not want to know about their daughter right we're gonna get to what he found but first of all

handing over your phone to your dad's like that that in itself handing over your phone to anybody never mind your dad that's quite a brave move yeah I feel like I feel like he's seen the worst already he's seen my stand-up so it's really hard to shock him at this point. So what did he find? Well, it's daytime, we're on the BBC, so I'm going to be conscious of what I'm saying because I'm a well-behaved comedian. But he found various things.

He found, you know, he looked through my dating apps, he looked through my online food delivery orders and was really deeply disappointed by how lazy his daughter is. He looked through pictures, videos of me and my friends. I mean, like a vast amount of things. But honestly, he wasn't really shocked by much because me and him have such a frank relationship now where I do feel like it's quite difficult to for me to shock him

I you've I want to pick you up on something you said a little just a minute ago which is you've opened his eyes to things what what kind of things have you opened his eyes to and I think that is a really interesting spin on the father-daughter dynamic because you know fathers teach us so much but actually as daughters particularly of your generation you can open their eyes to so much more yeah well I think just like stigmas so I remember the first thing was talking about periods with him if I like marked the progress I've made with him where you know he just wouldn't we just wouldn't talk about my period and now like you know it's stuff like that where I've just forced him to talk about these things that I do feel like men in general have

sort of always been a bit nervous talking about so that's like the best example but even just like my relationships my dating life like I do make him engage in it whether or not he wants to because I feel like why should why does my mum engage in all of that stuff but then my dad shouldn't and that's where I've just never really understood that sort of like difference. So I guess I've just forced him to have conversations about that. Again, like other things,

I just feel like I won't talk about on the BBC because I'm just conscious. They're the things that we're desperate to know what you're talking about now, but don't worry, be conscious. Maybe we can put them on our social media or something. Let me bring Dr. Rubin in here. Father, daughter, it's a massive question.

Father, daughter relationships. What would you say in your experience is the key to a good one i mean this sounds like a very healthy one to me where they're both they're open in dialogue and grace is able to talk to her dad about lots of different things and she lets him onto her phone which is absolutely incredible so that's phenomenal to hear that you do that and you have that comfort with each other that you can because not many, not many kids, not many daughters would do that with their foundation. If it's there, it is an absolute joy to be able to have a humorous relationship with your father. I certainly did with mine and I do with mine. He is very funny and we laugh. We find each other very funny, which is always very comforting. But it's, yeah, it's a huge connector and yeah, really important. And how much, we've got to talk about how much fathers

are conditioned by how their culture and there are various cultures that makes believe men should behave certain ways or society expects them to be yeah i'm thinking about my own dad actually because whenever i speak about my dad i always say he's not a very typical asian man that's always my opening sentence. But really, what am I saying about that? And what do you mean by that? Well, that he, you know, he takes me, took me to the pub and this wasn't normal back then,

whatever normal is for an Asian dad. Exactly. And I think you bring up such an important point too, Anita, which is the fact that our culture and societal messaging has so much to do with our relationships and with the expectations that we have of our relationships. And what is a normal relationship with your dad? What is a dad? What is a mom? Why are these constructs that society has made influenced us so much? And how do we do more of what Grace is doing in terms

of flipping that narrative and being able to say these are incredibly important components to a relationship, being able to have that connector, go to a pub, talk about things that perhaps were considered taboo in younger generations that are right now being disbanded so it's really important to have that openness between the two of you um grace we've got to say that your relationship with your dad is slightly different to most of our relationships because your dad is was such a high profile public figure so what what how did that impact you what are your sort of memories of that um i'm not really sure just because I was so young. Like my dad started working for Tony Blair when I was a baby.

And so it was sort of all I know in that sense of like how it impacted me. But it definitely, him being high profile, you know, the show that I'm taking on tour like in the new year is all about my relationship with men. And obviously a huge part of all about my relationship with men and obviously a huge part of that is my relationship with my dad because I think Holly you'll know this better than me but like our romantic relationships are often very much especially at the beginning dictated by how we see our fathers and what we're expecting and because of our relationships with our dads and that's definitely impacted me because

him being high profile and sort of having this sense of power meant that when I got into romantic relationships I wanted the men I was dating to be like that but also I had been emulating my dad so that meant that I was getting in these really like sort of complicated situations because I was trying to be like a powerful man but I was also trying to like be with one and that becomes really complicated when you're dating so it's been really interesting in therapy yeah undoing a lot of that because I would say that's the biggest way I can say it's impacted my life now I expect my boyfriends to be like I'm just what you've just I'm just so intrigued by what you just said and I'm sure every woman listening is like is that

what we do Holly is that what we're looking for when I mean people say it don't they but is it true? Well it's it's a good question and again we get we can get so you know Oedipus complex with it all and we can really look at unconscious mind and unconscious decisions. And yes, those are all operating. But again, part of what we're trying to do is be aware of those things and then be able to come to a place where why can't you have two powerful people in a relationship? Why can't we get to a more moderate space where you can see the choices that you're making, right? You can make, as you just said, Grace, you can unlearn those things that are unconscious and be able to say, hang on, I'm making this choice with my eyes open. I'm aware of social norms. I'm aware of social constructs, but I'm

actually going to change that a little bit because of what I need. I have a really strong template that was developed early on. And I want to take some of that away with me, but I also want to make it different and new for myself. How do you think, Grace, that your father would describe your relationship with you? I think positively. Like, you know, we've always had like a really sort of, I would say special like relationship I think I

annoy him a lot um I think he thinks I'm sure he's listening to this now so hi dad and because he'll definitely give me feedback afterwards by the way um I think you know like I said I've I've copied a lot of his character traits and so then when you see that in the child that you've created it's probably quite confronting um but we really do like we make each other laugh so much so much of my comedy like came from my dad he's like one of the funniest people I've ever met like you said it's like that is just the thing that I think will always have and he's so supportive of my career and both of my parents are they would never say oh you're being too much or like you can't say this you can't say that they never try and filter

me so overall you know we do have a really good relationship and I I feel very happy for that but coming back to the film like I do feel the father-daughter relationship is something I just haven't seen much of and so that's why this film really excites me because I think it is a really unrepresented relationship but one which is as we've said so character forming yes yeah and it really is a really beautiful uh depiction of that relationship very moving and the acting is incredible so many people are getting in touch about their dad's um good and bad relationships um Catherine says my father died when I was nearly 13 in 1966. He bought a round dining table because he said that we were all equal in our home and he taught

us about the evils of racism. He loved the arts, but as a builder, also wanted us to have practical skills. In recent years, I've been researching his World War II record as a Royal Marine, always my hero, and it seems others too and then alison has been in touch to say my dad left my mom when i was four he dropped out of my life fairly quickly his choice he left us in relative poverty and me with a constantly stressed mom lower quality of life and an internal distrust of men um holly you're nodding and sadly sadly for her right that that was her experience of abandonment at a really young age and um just like we were saying we can have positive um moments and templates that are

formed very early on we can have negative ones as well and so um as grace was saying that's about unlearning those things it's about understandingarning those things. It's about understanding what the circumstances were. It's about learning that it's complicated, right? And at four years old, you're not understanding that. You're just understanding that dad's not there anymore and what that feels like to have been left. So sad. And this is another interesting one for you, Holly amongst all these stories someone said here um note how hard it is for a boyfriend to enter into the strong father daughter relationship the daddy's girl dynamic torpedoed my love for someone yes that is that's a strong one and hard um yeah daddies love their little girls and aren't necessarily ready to be accepted and to uh to form as

close a relationship as well with um yeah with this new partner uh grace what's it like when you bring someone home or have done in the past it's really nerve-wracking honestly what's he what's your dad like he i mean he's just him. Like, it's such an anxiety-inducing process. And actually, I mean, mainly because of the football thing. Like, he defines men by who they support. And then if they support a team, how much actual knowledge they have of the team they support. And if they don't know enough, then he turns to me and says,

he's not a real football fan in front of his face. Do you warn them? Do you warn them before? And also, what's the reaction when you say, by the way, my dad's Alistair Campbell? Yeah, I mean, it varies because it depends what age they are. No offence to my dad, but people my age don't often know who he is or that much about him.

But then people a bit older in their 30s do so they're you know I've had like boyfriends where that's meant something and then boyfriends where that's meant nothing um I guess I just say you know Malcolm Tucker and then it's like oh my god so cool should we watch the thick of it oh fascinating stuff thank you both for talking to me this morning um Grace Campbell good luck with the the tour, Grace, and Dr. Holly Rubin. So many of your messages coming in. Another one here. I didn't meet my father until I was 10. My mother and he met in Canada in the 60s.

We were together for a few years, then separated. She returned to England pregnant with me and unmarried. But that's another story. Oh, come back to us for Woman's Hour. That's a good one for us. My father thought I'd been adopted. But when my mother contacted him 10 years later saying she'd kept me he was over on the first plane from canada since then i've seen him regularly i can never have the same closeness with him as i've been brought up by

my mum but we have a fundamental love for each other and have many similarities in character including an offbeat sense of humor and tendency to obsess it to be obsessive about health matters there you go what um holly was saying about need to have a sense of humor um in the relationship 84844 is the number to text now how many of you box get in touch with us if you do and tell us what you enjoy about it because last month female boxing made history when Clarissa Shields and Savannah Marshall fought in front of a sellout crowd at the O2 Arena. Not only was it the first ever all-female card in the UK, but it was the first time that two female boxers headlined at a major British venue, Clarissa won.

Now, despite this win for women's boxing, 99% of men, of box boxers are men and it's still very much a male-dominated sport but one woman is trying to change that she set up an organization to ensure that women boxers get the same opportunities as the blokes she hopes to harness the growing appetite for women's sport with the recent successes of women's football and rugby by convincing the bbc to show BBC to show her all-women line-up. So, in the Zoom corner, live on Woman's Hour, wearing a very beautiful white top, may I introduce to you, women's boxing promoter extraordinaire,

Susanna Schofield, OBE. How's that for an intro? Yeah, that's an introduction, isn't it? Thank you very much indeed. Oh, you're not wearing a white top. You're wearing a very beautiful strappy top. Actually, someone else was up on my screen. Yeah, how about that?

Do you have women doing the, that's an audition basically. I could come and do the whole commentary for you. Definitely, definitely. Well, we actually do. We have a female introduction, you know, introducer who's in the ring. So that's a fantastic thing

to be able to have. So yeah, we try and change it all up. Now, Susanna, you were a very successful businesswoman. So why did you go into boxing and decide to promote this sport? Where does your passion come from? Well, I think I've always championed women. And I think for me, not so much, you know, I've always said it's right person, right job. Absolutely. And, you know, I don't really want to see quotas. I want people to get there under their own merit. And I think for me, not so much, you know, I've always said it's right person, right job. Absolutely. And, you know, I don't really want to see quotas. I want people to get there under their own merit. And I think as we move through society, I've got two children, two girls, they're 14 and 12. And I believe they can do and be whatever they want to be. But actually, it doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what they believe. So as long as I instill that with them, then we're in a good place.

But I think in the boxing world, as you say, it's still predominantly male. So I came from 20 years at Royal Mail in a commercial career there, managing mostly men, working with mostly men. Never felt it was a hindrance, which I know I'm very lucky about. But I feel in women's boxing, there's not the safeguarding there in the well-being and there's not the research to to protect them you know it's very simplistic things like the you know the British Boxing Board of Control belt that's at a certain height beautifully protects a gentleman's crown jewels but actually can damage a woman's ovaries but we've not got enough research and insight into that so part of setting up you know the the platform where women can gather together is to make sure we can champion

well-being, make sure we can look after safeguarding and make sure we can deal with some of these really big issues like menstrual cycles. You know, how does that affect boxing? How does that really affect our hydration and the levels? Because, you know, it is an inherently dangerous sport as all elite sports are. But for some reason, boxing still isn't really normalized. You know, we're very happy to talk about judo and karate with women. But actually, when we say women boxing, there tends to be that sort of, oh, really, do women box? And this assumption as to what it is. And I think we're 10 years into the Olympics now. You know, we missed the 20, 2008, only got in in 2012. Yeah, only 10 years. It was only in 20, 2008, only got in in 2012. Yeah, only 10 years.

It was only in 20, yeah, which is telling in itself, isn't it? It is, absolutely. And still so much more needs to be done. But I think what's lovely is if you go back a decade, there was probably only one girl in a gym fighting her way to be part of the boxing community. Now it's completely mixed.

You know, boxing is the biggest growing domestic sport for women. And I think more importantly than just the professional side of things, I think actually there's some huge amounts of research to back up that. If you have mental problems, if you have, you know, if you're really suffering with your well-being, if you've got trauma in your life previously, then actually by being able to go and box, you can release serotonin in your brain that enables you to control some of your emotion and to talk better about it so I think there's so much good that can come from the sport it's you know it's my job I believe as the only licensed female boxing promoter to go out there and championing these amazing women yeah I mean I can tell you from personal experience

there's nothing better than getting it all out onto a punching bag and lots of women do as a sport as a fitness what impacted Nicola Adams success at the 2012 Olympics make to the sport I think it was huge and I think you know I mean before her there was incredible women that paved the way you know Jane Crouch was the first um first licensed boxing promoter and she fought from 94 to 2007 and she really did lead the way to make it acceptable but to then get it into the Olympics and for Nicola Adams to win, I just think it put a highlight on that it's a proper sport, as it were, in inverted commas. But I think now it is about normalising and about getting funding. You know, the government put loads of money into sport in the 2020, you know, after the pandemic, but they didn't put

it into boxing. Why was that, do you think? Do you know, I think there's some cynicism around it. You know, it's got its dark, it's got its dark moments. There's, you know, there's always issues or potential issues with drugs and et cetera. And we've, you know, we've had some big fallout of that recently, which is incredibly sad because those that are focused in the sport and dedicate themselves to it, you know,

I think it really needs to be championed and it does need to be cleaned up. There are some bad elements in there. And you are very serious about this, because you put your own money behind it. Absolutely. So we've been privately funded to date. And that's a passion. It's whether my children will agree with that when they don't inherit quite as much, I'm not sure. But I do. But I think for me, you know, I hope now to be able to put real eyeballs on this and to have some corporate sponsorship because the lionesses did incredibly well and they got the first six or seven pages of most newspapers but most of those companies still actually only fund male

sport they still actually only give the money to the premier league when they advertise so we love to watch women's sport it's growing enormously and I just think now it's my job as a promoter to challenge corporations to say if if you're going to sponsor, you need to sponsor the women's sport as well. You know, we're here. We're doing really well. What do they say to you when they say, I'm sorry, no, is it because they just don't think there's enough people watching it? Yes, to start with, I think that's where it was. But I think this last year has really, really changed that. I really do. I think that now people are looking and they are saying and the Lionesses did that incredibly well you know the rugby's great the fact we've got Formula One you know W1 drivers now there's a there's a whole build-up of it but where I think

boxing is so interesting is it's such a dynamic sport to watch when women fight because you know you you do get journeymen in the ring and there's not quite the depth yet for journey women and as important a part as they play because they help train the next generation coming up and they help teach new professional fighters actually women psychologically get in genuinely believing they're going to win so it tends to be uh you know they're not getting in just because they're a professional boxer they're getting in to win and psychologically we're programmed that way so it's very interesting to see two women going two minute rounds fast and furious it's you know it's a very very different sport to watch but it's incredibly entertaining that's fascinating so the psychology is different they're

going in believing they can win what other what are what what other aspects of boxing women's boxing make it makes it different to men where else do they show more prowess well i think the two minute rounds keep it really fiery. And actually, women dehydrate faster than men. So it's important that we do that. But again, we need more research around this. And I think one of the interesting things is we've been working with a company who produces gum shields that have chips in them.

And that gives real-time information so that actually, if you're on the side of the ring you know how hard the head hit was etc so for a woman it's very dangerous for her head to go at an angle and you know and our rib cage is very different because we have children our skull is differently shaped so all of that information we can real time send to the coach and their trainer in the corner we also when we were televised last time for the show we we managed to share that with the viewers so we could actually say that's the equivalent of being hit it's proper punch stats but that are actually recorded and for me if you've got a woman in sparring and because

we do dehydrate faster because of our breast tissue and because of our menstrual cycle it's incredibly important that if you've taken a blow to the head in sparring you know how hard that was and you can give yourself enough time to rest so that technology the British Boxing Board of Control were great to allow us to use it for the first time in a professional fight and I'm going to really champion in this moving forward I think there's the technology is they call it VAR for VAR for boxing if you want but I think it's super important I mean you're obviously um remarkable in many ways because you kind of you're championing yourself in the in the business world and you became a director at Royal Mail and then you've stepped into this new world of promoting boxing

how what challenges have you faced as a female promoter within the industry do you know everyone actually has been incredibly welcoming and not in every industry where it's like this I think that's not always the case but where I feel in boxing is it's one of the only sports if not the only sport that it doesn't matter what weight you are as long as you're healthy doesn't matter what size you are you can always find a weight category to fight in doesn't matter whether you're a male or female and it doesn't matter the color of your skin for me it's one of the very very few sports in the world that has absolutely no race in the minute whatsoever. And there's no room for that either. So I think coming in, it's

an incredibly diverse mix of people already. And actually, they've been welcoming. I think being taken seriously to start with was probably an issue. We had to sign the girls. We really had to go out there and show that they could fight. We've put on three fights now that have been televised and they've all had amazing write-ups. The last one on the BBC. So, you know, we're really there and we're moving the business forward. And I think for me, it's that moment of making sure that we're credible. We don't have the room now to move and to, you know, to change all of that. We have to keep absolutely focused and show that this is a credible sport and keep pushing. And there's enough young women

coming up through the ranks of the sport. There really are. There really are. And I think it's a shame because there is some noise now as to whether the boxing will make the Olympics. I believe they've approved it for 2024,

but I think there's some questioning whether it will be around in 2028, which I think will be a real crying shame. But there's some movement within boxing, obviously, lots of us campaigning to keep it there. But the wealth of women amateur fighters now that will come out as professional afterwards is incredible. You know, we had a great success this last Olympics. So there's a huge number of women coming in now. So it's only going to get a better score. Yeah, and a very powerful woman at the helm in the form of you, Susanna, who's promoting it. I really want you to share this story about getting your OBE with us, though, as you are on Women's Hour.

Because I read this and I thought, our audience needs to hear this. What happened the day you went to get your OBE? Well, it's great, isn't it? Because you dress up and you get on a train to commute into London. So it was an incredible surprise to get it. But you commute into London completely overdressed and you have to wear a hat and I've got my two children with me who were five and seven at the time so we're walking down the strand and there was a gentleman stood to the side of the strand and obviously everyone's looking and he turned to the girl turned to my children he said

oh wow this is amazing yeah I know where you're going you're up to the palace because it's you know it's order of the British Empire day and then he knelt down in front of my youngest and said, what's daddy done to deserve this? And my youngest put her shoulders back and looked at him and said, daddy's done nothing. Mummy's the clever one. And I felt incredibly bad for my husband. But I did. I was like, yes, mummy is. Let's go. I love that. What a great answer. And also because we're talking about father daughter relationships, how did your husband react? Do you know, he's brilliant and he has been the most supportive of my of my career he really has and my dad has as well like you know I couldn't couldn't come on here and have this and not say to him you know how great my dad has been and you know I think they championed and echoing

what was said earlier genuinely believed I could do anything completely supported me um both you know both my husband and my father and I think as a result of that, it makes you invincible. And it does. It gives you a protection that you kind of feel that you can put that jacket on and go out and face everything. So, so yeah, some amazing men in my life who've really helped me move forward. Brilliant. And Susanna, I'm sure you've inspired quite a few of our listeners this morning as well. Thank you so much for speaking to me. Now, a report this month by the Local Government Association found that the largest proportion, proportional increase inorrhoea and chlamydia was seen in people aged over 65 leading up to the pandemic. But why are older people failing to access the sexual health information and services they need?

And should we be doing more to destigmatise safe sex later in life? I'm joined by Professor Kay Wellings, who's currently working on the government's next action plan on older adults and sexual health. But first, Elaine Kingett, a writer who, having been with her husband since she was a teenager, suddenly found herself having to buy condoms for the first time at the age of 53, as she re-entered the world of dating following his death. Morning to you both. Welcome to the programme. So Elaine, before we even get into the bedroom, what was it like getting onto the dating scene again? I think I was just totally surprised that anybody fancied me because having been with

the same guy for so long, it wasn't part of my makeup. I wasn't used to worrying about how I looked or worrying about whether I looked sexy and attractive to anybody. And it was a couple of weeks after he died that I went on a holiday with my kids, a long delayed holiday. And the tour operator dragged me behind a restaurant and tried to snog me. And I just laughed because I thought what's he doing you know I'm seven and a quarter stone and I look a wreck and my middle son said he fancies you mum I just found it ridiculous and I was completely overwhelmed by any attention that I did get from a guy.

And the same thing happened about six months later. I'm not surprised looking at you. You're absolutely stunning. I mean, from that anecdote that you've just given us, a whole other conversation about consent that we could get into. Oh, absolutely. But we are talking about sex in older age and STI. So was it strange having been with the same man for so many years, suddenly having to think about sex and sexual protection with someone else? No, it was wonderful. It was wonderful to be able to continue something that I'd always found a lot of fun because I think with my husband I don't we'd

always had sex even you know he was terminally ill for three years he went through loads of different treatment but we'd never stopped fancying each other and I'd always had an orgasm which you know afterwards I when I heard that people faked it, I thought, why? Why? You know, it's such fun. And so I think that was what I was used to. I didn't have any fear or worry about sex. I'd seen it as an absolutely fundamental part of my life and something I enjoyed. Were you nervous about having to buy condoms

or even go to the STI clinic for the first time? What was that like? I think because I wasn't used to being the one responsible for buying condoms, I'd never bought them before. Initially, I sort of didn't think about it. And then I read and I was embarrassed. You know, if I did have sex with somebody, I thought, well, when do I say? And it was total embarrassment, which was ridiculous because I was getting off with guys. And yet I was embarrassed to suggest that they put a condom on. And for me, you know, it was known when I was growing up as the VD clinic and it was somewhere horrific and somewhere certainly people like me never went and and the only people who ever got

VD were dirty people. I'm going to bring the Professor Kay Wellings in now to talk about this and why we're seeing this increase in STIs amongst the over 65s. Well, I think it's really interesting what Elaine said, because you've got both problems really encapsulated in her account. First of all, you know, more older people are having sex than used to. There are more older people generally. There are more opportunities with dating sites and so on. But there's still this stigma and sensitivity around older people having sex. She had a perfectly good sex life, but didn't imagine that she would become sexually active again. And that's about social attitudes. And those social attitudes, the social norms that are making the whole area taboo, are actually acting against people going for help for STIs. And that is a huge problem that, you know, we need to find ways around the whole issue of the invisibility of older people. You know, a third of people in the population are over 50.

One in six are over 65. And that proportion is increasing. You know, it is not acceptable that we only think of sexual health in terms of two thirds of the population. Well, you're working on the government's next action plan on older adults and sexual health in terms of two-thirds of the population. Well, you're working on the government's next action plan on older adults and sexual health. So what needs to be done? What are some of the ways we can break the stigma? I should say we're simply providing an evidence base for that

when it happens. But I think we can start in many places. You don't see grey-haired people on those posters in GPs' waiting rooms. You just don't see them. You rarely see older people having sex on screen. I mean, there are some, there are increasingly examples, like The Mother and the film It's Complicated. But I think, you know, that whole equation between sex

and young, firm, nubile bodies, you don't see saggy, droopy, wrinkly people having sex. And yet when you do, there's something deeply that all older people want the same kind of sexual lives that younger people do. Intimacy means something different for older people. And so it's important, I think, for health and social practitioners to give older people permission to have the sex they want. We don't want it to become a five a day or 10,000 steps a day. That would be wrong. Elaine, do you think we have a problem in society talking about sex in old age? Oh, my God, yes.

And also the stereotypical images of older people. I mean, I'm 73 and people imagine that I should look like that figure of the old lady crossing the road. And any time there is ever an ad or anything for anybody over 70, it always portrays a heterosexual Caucasian couple with grey hair. And my hair hasn't gone grey. There's such a wide range of appearances and of fitness at any age and it's the same when you're older. You look incredible. You look incredibly youthful.

I'm just wondering if it's the sex that's keeping you young. You don't have to answer that. I want to know about the judgment you face from people your own age i think the problem is that the only way i i can have of meeting people at the moment i i live in seville and uh is on dating apps because and if i put my real age I get up the only contacts I ever get are from guys in their 80s who look like they're sitting in a white clean chair in a care home and who who who wouldn't fancy me anyway because I don't look like a Sevilliana woman. So it's a whole dating app thing of being judged on a photograph of your age. Older guys, I don't know.

I'd love to meet a man my own age. I don't necessarily want to meet someone younger, but I really don't know where the single ones are. So, and just to come back to you, Kay, you've put that out on the radio now, so you never know, they might all just start coming flooding in messages specifically for you, Elaine. Kay, what can this demographic do? What would you encourage people listening to this to do?

I think talk. You know, it's well, the research has shown that around 90% of practitioners think the patient will raise these issues. And the same proportion of patients think the doctors will raise the issue. But it's not just in the health context, you know, we need to see in in the programming, I mean, we're doing a good job having it on women's hour. That's a good start in normalisation. But we need to see it in some of the programmes like Coronation Street, EastEnders, the sorts of programmes that used to bring,

for example, in the AIDS era, brought that to attention. Yeah, normalised sex in older people. Normalised sex. Yes. Thank you both for speaking to me this morning, Professor Kay Wellings and Elaine Kingett, and all of you for getting in touch with your messages about your fathers. My late father was a gifted artist, left school at 14, but taught me to read before I started school. My mother had to warn the teachers that I could read the newspapers that covered the tables when we did the painting. Wonderful stories. Thank you so much. Have a great weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.