Woman's Hour - Women in Afghanistan, Alison Goldfrapp, VJ Day, High St shopping

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

Four years after Taliban fighters retook the capital Kabul on 15 August 2021, UN Women, the gender equality agency, is warning that the situation for women and girls in Afghanistan is increasingly untenable. They say without urgent action, this untenable reality will become normalised and women and girls will be fully excluded. To discuss further Anita Rani is joined by Fawzia Koofi, former deputy speaker of the Afghan Parliament & peace negotiator, and BBC senior Afghan reporter Mahjooba Nowrouzi, recently returned from Afghanistan. The synth-pop visionary Alison Goldfrapp has had multi-platinum album sales, unforgettable Glastonbury performances, Brit and Grammy nominations. She received an Ivor Novello for Strict Machine as well as the Ivor’s Inspiration Award in 2021. Last year she completed a sold-out UK headline tour, cementing her reputation as one of the most compelling, dynamic and hypnotising live acts. Alison talks about her solo career and the idea behind her latest album Flux.Topshop is relaunching this weekend with Cara Delevigne walking a catwalk show in Trafalgar Square. But with River Island closing stores around the country and Claire's Accessories also under threat, how healthy is the high street as a fashion shopping destination? Retail analyst Catherine Shuttleworth looks at what high street shopping is really like these days, how brands are diversifying, and whether Topshop can make a success of a relaunch. Eighty years ago today, Japan unconditionally surrendered, following the US atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The war in Asia and Pacific ended, and World War Two was finally over. Tens of thousands of British, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers from across Britain’s empire had fought Japan. Thousands were taken as prisoners of war and held in appalling conditions. British civilians were also captured and interned. We learn about Shelagh Brown who was held captive for three and a half years, after fleeing her home in Singapore, then a British colony, when the Japanese invaded.The Women's Rugby World Cup, being held in England, starts a week today. The BBC's Rugby Correspondent Sara Orchard runs us through everything we need to know. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Ever feel like car shopping is designed to make your second guess yourself? Is this a good price? Am I making the right choice? With car gurus, you don't have to wonder. They have hundreds of thousands of cars from top-rated dealers and advanced search tools, deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cairg-g-U-R-U-S.ca.cagurus.ca.cagurus.ca.ca.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Alison Goldfrapp has a new album out. It's released today. It's called Flux. She's going to be here to tell us all about it. And ahead of the Women's Rugby World Cup, which starts a week today,

we'll be bringing you up to speed with everything you need to know. On VJ Day, you'll be hearing never before broadcast cassette recordings of a woman who spent three and a half years as a prisoner of war and we'll be discussing the High Street as Topshop is set to return. It's an interview I actually did yesterday and me and the retail expert, Catherine Shuttleworth, found ourselves reminiscing about our Saturday jobs. So this morning, I'd like you to get in touch with me to tell me about your Saturday jobs. I've worked from a very young age because, you know, family business, just being an Asian kid and never getting any pocket money, done it a lot. petrol stations, worked in bars, retail, waitress. But when I was in the sixth form, I know, actually uni, I had three jobs.

The best was working behind the bar at the West Yorkshire Playhouse because I got to see all the plays for free. The worst data inputting at a credit company. That was definitely clock watching that one. How about you? What Saturday jobs did you do? What were the perks? And are your kids as keen to get out there and earn their keep?

Whatever your thoughts on Saturday jobs, 84844, reminisce. Take me down memory lane, tell me all about it. Where were you? What were you up to? The best bits, the worst bits. You can email the program by going to the website and, of course, the WhatsApp number is 0-3-700-100-444. Looking forward to reading those.

The text message, though, once again, text number 84844. First, though, four years after Taliban fighters retook the capital, Kabul, on the 15th of August 2021, UN Women, the Gender Equality Agency, is warning that the situation for women and girls in Afghanistan is increasingly untenable. They say without urgent action, this untenable reality will become normalized and women and girls will be fully excluded.

The report says after four years and waves of directives, Afghan women and girls have been stripped of their rights. Women are living shorter, less healthy lives. At maternal mortality risks and child marriage rates are rising and violence against women is growing, unchecked. The state of women's rights in Afghanistan has made it the country with the second widest gender cap in the world, second only to the Yemen. Well, I was joined by Fosia Kufi, former deputy speaker of the Afghan parliament and peace negotiator and regular

women's hour contributor and senior BBC reporter for the Afghan service, Mahjuba Nauruzi, who recently returned from Afghanistan a month ago after spending three weeks there. I started by asking her what she'd seen. It depends which part of the country you go to. In Kabul, it was more or less relaxed and I saw women like, yeah, walking kind of, I could say freely, basically in groups of two or three women and going to restaurants and doing shopping and sometimes without a male guardian and could ride a taxi. But again, in groups of two or three. And, I didn't see any women on their own walking alone. Life was going on as normal.

When you say they were working in groups of two or three, do you think that was because they can't walk alone or for safety? Or what was the reason you didn't? Definitely, because the restrictions on women not like traveling alone from, I mean, even some women cannot travel from one corner of Kabul to another without a male guardian, especially if you're a woman on your own and you don't work and you're a single mom and you have like several kids and you have a job. You need a job and you have to work, but you need to travel from one corner of Kabul to another.

Then you need to have a male guardian because even the taxi drivers will not give you a ride. So these kind of restrictions make women to sometimes work together to find a solution, how to travel around and how to find a way that they do not get in trouble, basically. And in Kabul, if they're traveling and going out as small groups, are they, is it still a dangerous situation for them or are they safer? In some places they're safer. It's not too bad, if I can say that. I saw women navigating the city with extreme quotients,

and careful not to draw attention outside Kabul. In more remote provinces, the restrictions felt even more pronounced. Women and girls were largely absent from public spaces, schools and workplaces. The sense of exclusion and fear was palpable, basically, and it was hard-working to see the scale of the restrictions firsthand. And recently I read the UN women description of the situation being untenable. And really, that, in my opinion, captures the reality on the ground. It was heartbreaking in some cases, but in some cases I was a little bit surprised.

I'm going to bring you in Fosier, because I read a summary that said in 2021, an Afghan woman could have run for president, although none did. spool forward to 2025. They can't even speak in public. There's an edict from the Taliban which labels public speaking by women a moral violation. Does that sum up the enormity of the changes for Afghan women in the last four years? So many people regard this as a black day in the history of Afghanistan. Today, protests are organized across the globe, I would say, by women mainly, but also by men. Over the past four years, Afghan Afghanistan have even become more marginalized politically and diplomatically. The people are suffering from poverty, according to credible UN report, 90 percent or

more population of Afghanistan are under poverty. And it actually is hard-wrenching because Afghanistan is a rich country in terms of natural resources and their location it locates. But the impact of all of this is, of course, on women more than anybody. more than 100 edicts by the Taliban leader to completely erase women. Last year, in this time in August, you referred to the vice and virtual law. This was issued publicly, like the first law that was issued, 132 article. Most of it actually was to suppress women, to limit their freedom.

One of that was women not being able to speak in public because their voice was regarded as intimacy. I think after four years now, you see gradually, and I mean, Mahabhajan has just returned, but you see gradually the impact of those edicts on social structure of Afghanistan. Sure. After maybe another four years, if the situation doesn't change, it's, Afghanistan is going to change to a radicalized country because the Taliban definitely do not allow women and girls to go to school or university. Yeah. But they allow women to go to, religious schools that they call them madrasas and there is no age limit or there is no distance limit. So you can go to a madrasa and like a far away from your house without a male

company but you cannot go to school. And mainly in these madrasas, the cricula is being controlled by the Taliban being developed by them. So that's going to impact the social impact, the social fabric. Let's let's talk about how the social fabric is going to change through the prism of what's happening to women. So just to pick up on one. what you said, Fuzia, Mahjuba, what was your experience of schools? Because two million girls, Afghan girls remain out of school. That's the figure we have. That figure aligns with what I witnessed, probably even more, to be honest.

In rural provinces, entire villages, because I went to Roar, entire villages have no operational schools for girls behind primary education, even not primary education, if I'm being honest. Even where schools exist, many families are afraid to send their daughters, given the Taliban's restrictions and the risk of harassment. Access isn't just a matter of infrastructure in these places. It is a matter of safety, fear and government policy. If I'm being honest, it was a problem in the past as well in rural provinces and remote areas of Afghanistan, but it has got worse. So now more girls just avoid going to school, if that makes sense. Yeah, and you went to a maternity ward in a province.

I did. I mean, that's the province that I'm talking about in Roar. I went to this maternity ward where it was absolutely overwhelmed with only two female gynecologists for over a million people. Women faced long delays there in that maternity ward for care and sometimes risking life-threatening complications. Supplies were limited because they were saying that they were not receiving any kind of aid from any organizations or NGOs. And the infrastructure was basic. And there was an acute shortage of trained staff. And can you imagine just two kind of.

psychologist for the entire province. The resilience of the women and the doctors, they were working tirelessly. And despite the impossible circumstances, the risk for both mothers and newborns were, in my opinion, very real because one of the doctor was saying that two mothers on average, and three babies die every month in this hospital alone. And so many women even do not get to the hospital. The UNG report, it has also said that if women are not allowed to enter higher education, they cannot become doctors. And if women are banned from receiving treatment from male doctors,

which in a whole case, they would not go to male doctors. there were male doctors in the hospital and which they are in a certain regions like like all women people are very traditional and they are very conservative and they avoid going to male doctors they cannot in a in a situation like that you cannot expect to live healthy lives and and it's the women who are suffering as a result of this for Zia um i mean i i used you're speaking to women i know you haven't been there for a long time but what are women telling you? And we need to discuss the generation of women who are living throughout.

I know, Fosier, you've described this as the Taliban Mark 2 in the past. It is a generation of women who have grown up in an Afghanistan that's a post-9-11 generation that grew up under the US and British intervention. So life has changed dramatically for them in the last four years. What are you hearing? And how does it make you feel listening to what Mahjuba is telling us right now? Well, actually, Anita, Afghanistan already had the highest number of maternal mortality in the past due to the fact that women did not have access in remote areas to health facilities.

However, the Taliban banning women from becoming doctors, banning women from becoming medical staff, including nurses and midwives. In some cases, actually also the UN report indicates, but also my own contact with local communities, they have instructed hospitals and clinics to do not admit women who come to the hospital without male company. That have even further exacerbated the lack of access to health facilities and eventually increase maternal mortality. In the whole province that Mahjuba was referring, I was running community-based nursing and midwifery school until December 224, with a hope that we will be able to train 30 young women become nurses and midwives and be able to at least deliver basic health services to women and children. because my fear is that as also the UN report says 50% matter mortality might increase to 50%. My fear is that in two or three years our health system will completely be disrupted because of the fact that we don't have new graduates of doctors, nurses, midwives.

So we had to close our school in our province that was supposed to provide education for 30 girls to become nurses and midwives. I think the fact that Mahjubar mentioned in Kabul, you see women going to the restaurants, going to the parks. And in Hore, for instance, when they actually arrested one of my staff and she was pregnant, they arrested her. The next day, she was released and she came back to the office. And I told her, what kind of carriage is she is this? You're pregnant. You're being arrested.

You're released and you come back to the office. I think that's a generation that we're talking about. That's a generational change that we're talking about. My sister was telling me from Kabul the other day that if this Taliban regime is being defeated, it will be defeated by women. Because she told me she went to a restaurant and a group of young girls came

and the Taliban also entered trying to arrest the women because they did not comply with the Taliban-defined hijab. Of course, they wear hijab. And these women were actually, arguing, confronting the Taliban, that their hijab is according to the rules and principles. So their courage is something that gave us hope and gave us even more passion and reason to stand with them and for them. Mahjuba, you also, I'm keen to know more about your visit.

You visited a mental health facility. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yes. I mean, even thinking about that actually give me goosebumps. because it was deeply moving and in some ways very distressing. Many women were abandoned by their families for years in this facility and the facility was understaffed. Resources were minimal.

And yet, the women's courage and perseverance stood out. And as Fausti Kufi said, you see that everywhere you go basically. It highlighted both the gaps in mental health care and the social stigma women face in Afghanistan. They are often isolated these women with mental health problems with little hope to reintegrate into their communities or even see their families.

And the painful reality now in Afghanistan is that the Taliban have shut down all shelters and safe houses for victims of domestic violence and leaving them with only two possible destinations. I mean, when I talk about it probably sounds unbelievable, but that is the reality in Afghanistan. If you're a victim of domestic violence, you end up either in prison or in a mental health facility, like the one that I visited. I spoke to several women who claimed to be victims of domestic violence,

and yet they were in mental health facility, abandoned by their families and by the society, with no hope to be going back to their families. Fosier, just back to the UN report, another thing that it says is that the Taliban is closer than ever to achieving its vision of. a society that completely erases women from public life. You still spend the vast majority of your time engaged with Afghanistan.

How do you respond to that statement? Well, I don't think they're close. I think they have fully achieved their goal in erasing women from every sphere of life. Today, women in Afghanistan completely erased from working in the government institutions, except that they surge in the airport and they, you know, basic services. No woman at the university, no woman at the schools beyond grade six. Even at grade six, there is a huge dropout because there is no hope for women for girls to continue beyond grade six. So even they don't bother to go to grade six. Mental health is a big

issue in Afghanistan, young girls committing suicide, you know, killing themselves. It doesn't come to the media because it's regarded as social stigma and many families don't want to, and media is being some sort, force and early marriages, including, you know, the Taliban commanders, marrying young, educated girls as third and second wife. These are like, I think it's a complete apartheid. And in this circumstances, Anita, what is more painful is the silence of the international community. It's only the anniversary that, you know, we remember, oh, Afghanistan, Sure. 18 million plus women are completely erased.

Can you imagine if this was a country where male were erased or a religious group was erased, what would have been the word reaction? Well, as you mentioned, the world's attention is elsewhere, the international community. I mean, what's your hope? Do you hold any hope that the Taliban can be held to account? I think the Taliban need to be held accountable for their commitment that they made during the peace talks when we were negotiating with them, they say women can go to school up to grade, up to Ph.D. They can get Ph.D. They can become minister, even prime minister.

I'm quoting their minister of one of their ministers during negotiation. He said, women can be even prime minister according to their interpretation, which was, of course, you know, a narrative that could, it was a lie to whitewash themselves. And there were a lot of diplomats who were in the same line with them. They were saying Taliban 2.0. Now, my hope is that more pressure internationally, especially from an organization like the ICC, ICJ, Human Rights Council, women groups, as well as, you know, resilience from women and men inside the country will lead to change.

We are working for that. You know, we are working to mobilize more and more forces to create an alternative. Because many people think that there is no alternative for Taliban, which I don't agree. Because, you know, the Taliban were a rebellion group. They were brought to power and became a kind of a power that controlled the whole country. Ninety percent of people, plus in Afghanistan, are not supporting Taliban. So all those people are alternative. We need to just empower them, give them the space, listen to them, and hold the Taliban accountable.

And I'm happy that at least the ICC issued arrest warrant for two Taliban leaders recently on June 17th. We need to have more of those announcements that is going to create more division among the Taliban. The Taliban were very proud of their unity, but now there is more fragmentation and division. It will lead to a change. Fosia Kufi, former deputy speaker of the Afghan parliament and peace negotiator and senior BBC reporter for the Afghan service Mahjuba Naruzi speaking to me, earlier today. The text number this morning is 84844. A little bit later I'm going to be discussing the High Street, the changing face of the High Street. Top Shop is said to reopen, but also Saturday

jobs. Lots of you getting in touch with your Saturday jobs. Jacqueline says, oh no, from 16 after school I travelled to Oxford Street in London to work Thursday night from 5 to 8pm at Ravel Shoe Shop. I also worked all day Saturday. It was hard work but fun. Salary was low, £4.50 for a Saturday, but I often earned three times my basic in commission. I met my first serious boyfriend there who worked on the men's floor upstairs. My best school friend, Chrissy worked in Sasha Shoes. She was and still is the cooler, edgier one of us. And that's from Christine, talking of cool and edgy.

Let's get on to our next guest. The synth, pop visionary Alison Goldfrapp has had multi-platinum album sales, multiple Brit and Grammy nominations, and received an Ivan Novello for strict mission. as well as the Iver's Inspiration Award in 2021. She's known for her unforgettable performances. Last year, she completed a sold-out UK tour, cementing her reputation as one of the most compelling, dynamic and hypnotising live acts.

Well, today, she releases a new solo album. It's called Flux. Congratulations. Thank you. Release day. I saw you on your Instagram revealing the very delicious looking vinyl. Is it special holding the record in your hand? love vinyl i really do i love designing it making it yeah it just it's just so nice to have a big

thing in your hands yeah i love it well the design and also then playing it obviously lovely and so that and the design is gorgeous um you are wearing this beautiful sort of neon almost yellow jacket and your sexy boot on the back silver boots you designed it those well the clothes are by Alexander Vortier and Matt Maitland does the artwork and I've worked with him for a long time yeah it's called flux yes why did you choose that title oh well I kind of feel like I feel like I'm always in flux I feel like as humans were in flux we're always changing and moving evolving hopefully and yeah I feel like creatively I'm in flux and personally and physically I feel like I've been through a lot of changes in the last few years physically and otherwise so yeah I feel like it's sort of a sort of speculative proposition maybe what do you mean physically well menopause

is a huge thing I mean I think we can be quite resistant to change can't we so I'm trying to embrace it all yeah and how have you done that just how has it impacted you and how have you embraced it? Well it's hell and horrible

you know it affects things that you never thought it would affect your voice and all sorts of things that you just people don't really talk about I guess I mean I know we're talking a lot more about it now but even so I still think there's a lot of things missing from sort of conversations yeah yeah and also even though the conversations are out there I think it sort of impacts

every woman differently and also depending on what you do for a living yeah I mean you're a singer and it and what happened with your voice well you know nothing sort of too dramatic I mean it's a gradual thing anyway I think you know your voice tends to lower in pitch as you get older anyway but um i mean interestingly i did notice where um every month when i was having my periods that the voice would change um you know you can get a sore throat every month and for a long time i just didn't quite understand it then i realized there was definitely a pattern to it and yeah hormonal changes affect your voice as well as all the other stuff so what did you do to help yourself did you well there wasn't really a huge amount not in

that respect any way that you can do it's just nature taking its course but yeah no I'm good with it now but it has taken a while to get used to it yeah and produced another solo album yeah I'm going for it all yeah and just come back

off tour a little tour so how is that how's your energy levels all of it you know physically I know how much you love performing I mean you are sensational on stage yeah well thanks no it's all good it's all good you know you just got to manage these things and adjust to new habits and you know look after yourself and all that stuff well i have been stalking you on instagram for a while have you yeah because i really enjoy watching your little candid chats

and i particularly enjoyed you having a cup of coffee off the back of just finishing tour oh yeah and talking about adrenaline oh yeah and sort of what you do when you finish and you're back at home. Like, you know, to explain a bit about it. Because I've often wondered, you know, when you're a rock star or a pop song, you're on stage, what happens when you, that's it? The applause is over and you have to go home. Yeah. Well, that adrenaline, well, for me, I mean, again, I guess everyone's different, but for me, I'm sort of, yeah, that adrenaline's still rushing around your body for hours. And some nights it's more than others, depending on what's gone on but yeah it's a crazy thing and I've never quite known how to manage it um but um I

I mean I think I probably used to drink but I don't anymore because actually I feel like that makes it worse and messes up your sleep yeah I don't drink at all now um but you know again that's a menopausal thing um but yeah adrenaline it's a it's a crazy thing um how hard was it to stop drinking by the way as someone how hard was it well it took a while but to be honest i just wasn't enjoying it um so actually it wasn't that hard yeah um i want to ask you about your sort of love affair with sweden and the northern lights sweden yeah you because you you you you're one of the tracks is called sound and light and it was written in sweden it was written in sweden and i'd never seen uh the northern lights it's sort of been a thing i've wanted to see for years and years and

years and travel to all these different places trying to see them and it never happened and anyway so this track was inspired by um a fantasy of seeing the northern lights and also just being out in in nature um i'd just come out of a relationship and so i was craving space and um nature and and freedom, basically. I hear you, sister. And so I was fantasising about the northern lights. Anyway, roll on to a few months later, it was finished the track. And this is August, August, out in the archipelagio of Sweden,

an August night, the flipping northern, the lights appeared over the water. It was just magical and I couldn't believe it because this is like a warm, balmy evening which, you know, normally you see them in winter of course so it just felt like we'd sort of manifested these lights. Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. You have put this album, released it yourself.

Yeah. Self-released. Tell me about that. The second solo album. Yeah, I think it just felt like a good time to be owning my, my mastering and, yeah, and my management were very supportive of the whole idea. So, yeah, I mean, it was scary, if I'm honest, you know. So why did you want to do it?

Because I want to own my own mastering. I mean, it feels very liberating to do and fun. And I kind of like the team effort, keeping it really sort of local, if you like. But, yeah, a bit scary on the finances. I want to read this review out that says for an artist is always played with reinvention as glam rock mystic, electronic siren, ambient poet and synth pop high priestess. Alison Goldfrapp has rarely sounded as personally rooted and as emotionally open as she does on flux. Very quickly, can you tell us some of the themes of the album? Yeah, that's kind of nice.

are themes. Well, I mean, comparing it to my first solo album, I think it's much more personal. I think it's more song-orientated, so more sort of focusing on the melodies and the lyrics. Yeah, but there's kind of things that are very pop and there's also things that are much more, let's say, abstract and more. ambient as well well i'll tell you he'll be very happy it's clemmy who's just been in touch to say hi just listening to alison goldfrapp i'm only 10 but i'm a huge fan and so excited about the new album that's from clemmy so you get new fans all the time bless you clemmy and great that we've got a 10 year old listening to women's hour excellent double double tick um very quickly you've been brilliant alison i want to wish you the best of luck with the album it's such a pleasure

that you've come in to see us saturday jobs did you have a name saturday job oh my god Yeah, I worked in a cafe as a waitress. Were you any good? No, I was terrible. Very rude. Well, you found... I'm cleaning. I had a cleaning job.

It doesn't matter. You found your groove anyway. You found you niche. You found your talent. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. Allenton, golf, and the new album is Flux, and it's out today. Now, if I say the words, Topshop, what does that mean to you?

Does it evoke memories of a particular item of clothing or a visit to the iconic Oxford Street, store as a teenager. Well, Topshop closed on the High Street when parent group Arcadia went into administration in 2020. It was bought by ASOS, which took the brand online. But now, there's a lot of buzz in the fashion industry as it attempts to make a comeback this weekend with a catwalk show in Trafalgar Square featuring the model Cara Delavine to mark the relaunch of an online store, with news of a physical presence in the High Street also incoming. But is this a sign of a high street revival, especially against the news that Claire's accessories is going into administration with thousands of jobs at risk and River Island is closing multiple stores across the UK.

And what does the likes of Topshop mean to young fashionistas today, get the word out, if anything at all? Well, to discuss this further, I was joined by retail analyst Catherine Shuttleworth and I asked her if she was surprised by the Topshop relaunch. Not entirely, but I'm sort of surprised that it's taken off with the speed with the youngest shoppers that it is. It was one of those high street shops at a right of passage for many of us in the 90s. What are your memories of Top Shop or were you more of a Miss Selfridge girl? No, I was a Top Shop girl and a Miss Selfridge girl. And I mean, just that whole thing of going in on a Saturday thinking, oh, I'm going out tonight and buying something and just being excited

by the whole feeling of retail. I mean, I've made my career in retail, but a lot of my best memories of shopping, if you like, and being a shopper is when I was a teenager, you know, and I grew up in Sheffield. I live in Leeds now. And I can remember going to Chelsea girl, which is a bit before Top Shops time. And it was just a really exciting place to be. It was cool. It was the kind of clothes you wanted to wear that your mum wasn't buying you for the first time ever. And so I think people have got some really positive memories of enjoying shopping and being with friends because it was a very social thing, wasn't it? You used to go, your mates and try loads of stuff on in the changing rooms, some of which you'd never buy. And just have a bit of a laugh and have some good fun. Yeah, exactly

that it was a right of passage it was an appointment to hang out with your mates go into town do a bit of shopping maybe have some food and then have a lovely outfit at the end of it um is it a worrying time for high street fashion retail now i mean we've seen in the news that both clairs and river island are in trouble well claire's accessories has gone into administration hasn't it very sadly um yeah yeah i've just been talking about that today and that's real shame because of course that's another right of passage store isn't it it's the place that you go with your to have your ears pierced And lots of us moms will have sat with our daughters looking quite pale as that piercing gun came towards them. But that's been something that I think had a lot of today's kids who are a bit older, starting to get into Topshop, we'll remember.

And it's a real shame that's closing. I mean, I'm hopeful that as a business can focus on some of its experiential points. And perhaps with a smaller footprint, so less shops, it can still survive. Because younger shoppers do still want to go shopping. and they're no different than we were when we were teenagers. They want to get out of the house, spend what money they've got. The difference, I suppose, to when we were younger, is we didn't have TikTok shop. We didn't have Sheen and really cheap alternatives to buy stuff online that could be delivered to our house.

So, you know, Jen Alpha, which is the sort of younger teenager shopper, completely gets how to shop in lots of different ways, whether that's, as I say, TikTok shop, buying off an influencer, and then going to go. going into real-life shops. They're very flexible in the way they shop, probably more so than you and I are and probably less nostalgic about it. So brands like Clare's have got to make themselves super relevant to that shopper.

The owner of the Topshop brand, who are ASOS, says there'll be an announcement on the return of physical stores in the next few weeks and the brand has already been confirmed for an Irish department store. Can you see it making a full return to the high street? I don't think it'll be what we would remember it as, which was in every single high street.

So, I mean, this is the other thing about shops at the minute. You know, now we're getting to super shopper sentencing. So, for example, you know, Leeds is a great shopping centre, but Bradford isn't, you know. And in the old days, there would have been a top shop in Bradford and in Leeds. So I don't think with the advent of online shopping, you need a shop in every single high street in the UK. You need them in a few places.

And I think Topshop might even go down the pop-up route and just pop up in interesting places now and then, because their shop will also buy online from them. Are other shops doing that? Yeah, there are some that are starting to do that. And of course, since the budget and the change in national insurance contributions, the cost for a lot of retailers and staff has changed. So I think we'll see quite a few retailers rebasing what they do and opening up.

But I mean, you know, brands like nobody's child, which you might, I don't know, might we say that's a slightly grown-up person's top shop now? That's a brand that a lot of women really like. You know, they've got a very big relationship. with Marks and Spencers. They sell clothes in Marks and Spencers shop and they have got a few of their own stores. So I think there's a much more flexible approach to retail

than just build loads of shops and hope that people will come. What is the current state of the traditional high street? And I'm glad you brought up the Leeds Bradford thing because as someone who is from Bradford's, you know, I often wonder what Leeds, like Leeds has a city centre that thrives and Bradford's has definitely declined. Yeah, I was a Saturday girl in a shop called Richards.

And then I went to Leeds. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then I got transferred to Miss Selfridge Leeds and worked there. It was great. Good. I loved it. Loved working in them.

Yeah. Can we ever see, you know, high streets thrive? And Bradford is just one example. There's plenty of towns and cities across the country where the traditional high street is not what it used to be. Can we ever expect it to thrive again? And I know you've mentioned, you know, shopping habits change and we're shopping online. How much of an impact is sort of shopping destinations like the Westfield or the Trafford Center? Huge.

I mean, I like you. I was a Saturday girl in Boots, actually, in Sheffield. And as far as I stopped my retail career, I am, aren't I? What I was always going to be. I loved it then and I love it now. But you have got these, what I would call super centres, like the Trafford Centre, that are destinations in themselves, aren't they? Because you don't just go to shop, you go and eat something.

There might be, I mean, I've not been myself, but my sister's been with her kids to the Lego Centre at Trafford. There's loads of other things going on in the same, you know, in the Blue Water Centre and so on. I think we will see the growth of those. They will continue to have the investment. And if you're a retail business, you'll put your best stuff there. And the problem for places, if we take Bradford as an example,

is that, you know, those super centres and everybody's ability to jump in a car and go shopping and not pay for the parking, that's another thing, which you don't do at these big shopping centres, means that those traditional city centres in what I might call slightly smaller cities and towns, have to reinvent themselves. But I mean, a lot of it is to do with socio-economics, isn't it? Because if we take our, as we're obviously specialists in West Yorkshire, you and I,

but if you take Leeds, fantastic train links to lots of places, interesting shops. But between Leeds and Bradford is a place called Ilklee, which is a small market town. That high street is super thriving. Yeah. But it's a very affluent place. Sure. So, you know, if you've got money, it's not so bad. You know, I sometimes talk to people and they sell, yeah, but my high street is lovely.

a gales bakery and it's all very posh well tell you what let's go to keithley and have a look at the high street there totally different story and i do think there is some really is it matter is it a problem well it's not a problem in in that we've got choice where it's a problem is about local employment because you know when retail businesses close down in those smaller towns there aren't jobs to replace them in retail and and i think that's difficult and also if you take the shops out with footfall that are bringing people in, it's sort of cause and effect, isn't it? It's not like it used to be. I'm not going to go there. And it's women that are being impacted, particularly in retail with the lack of employment. Yeah. Usually. Because,

you know, the women that worked in retail had good jobs that led to good careers locally, where they could balance that for a lot of them with other caring responsibility, you know, bringing up families, looking after family members. When those jobs go, and I, you know, I've talked about this before, it's very difficult to replace them and so that means there's quite a shift in these places and I think retail is a force for good in the UK it has provided fantastic careers for people but that is changing really rapidly

and that's going to be a bigger problem for society about where those jobs come from and actually just on you kind of ending up in retail having worked as a Saturday girl in boots well I loved working in the changing rooms that was my favourite bit because I spent my whole day telling women how amazing they look and now I'm at Woman's Hour, kind of celebrating women.

So, you know, we're all meant to be where we're meant to be. You and me both. The retail analyst there, Catherine Shuttlerworth, and we've been getting all sorts of examples from you in regards to your Saturday jobs. Maybe you're connecting the dots as well, thinking back to where you were and where you've ended up. But let me read some more out for you.

Hi, Woman's Hour. I had a Saturday job in a boutique, and opposite was a market owned by a guy who rocked up every Saturday in a white MGB. He looked like Donnie Osmond. He asked me out. And the rest, they say, as they say, is history of Val. What a lovely message.

Thank you. We need to know more details, don't we? I have another one here. I worked in school holidays in shops, hotels, ice cream vans before I went to medical school. 10 p an hour working in food service industries taught me how some punters would look at the job, not the person, and be exceedingly rude. Those jobs taught me how to be kind and to respect people and allowed me to mix in circles. Perhaps I would never have experienced otherwise. Yeah, correct.

A useful skill for the future GPI became. name Dr. Janet Curtin and the Isle of Sky. And Wynne has been in touch to say my Saturday job was in a chemist shop. Men came in for a packet of three and I had no idea what I was selling them. Also, someone's got in touch about Alison Goldfrapp, the interview we've just had, saying my 10-year-old daughter is also a fan. She has autism and recognised it was Goldfrapp playing before we did. Great New Song. Keep them coming in. 84844 is the text number. Really enjoying reading out your Saturday jobs.

Now, 80 years ago today, Japan unconditionally surrendered following the US atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The war in Asia and Pacific ended and World War II was finally over. Tens of thousands of British and hundreds of thousands of soldiers from across Britain's empire had fought Japan. Thousands were taken as prisoners of war and held in appalling conditions. British civilians were also captured and interned. Sheila Brown and her mother were held captive,

for three and a half years, fleeing their home in Singapore, then a British colony, when the Japanese army invaded. In her Chichester home, Margie Caldicott keeps a room dedicated to her mother, Sheila. While interned, Sheila and other women in the camp started a vocal orchestra, an act of resilience under brutal conditions. Sheila recorded her experiences on cassette tapes given to the BBC by her daughter Margie. They've never been broadcast before. were quite dreadful the way they would slap people

and make us stand for a long time to be counted in the sun. And we were kept short of drugs and things for sickness. The Japanese threatened us with no food unless we opened up one of the houses to act as a club for the Japanese officers. Well, when the Japanese came around to see if there were young people around, I would be locked in the bathroom.

They made themselves look as ghastly as they could, and they got some heavy shoes from somewhere, and off they all went. And the Japanese officers arrived, all the little men all polished up in their uniform, and they said, what would you like to drink? And could they dance? Oh yes, they'd love to dance. So when they got dancing, they bifitted them around and trodden their feet and fairly gave them a rough time, and that was the end of the club, fortunately. Nothing more was heard of it. First concert, we performed in the shelter in the middle of the camp. We had to sit down and we weren't strong enough to stand. And to me, I just suddenly thought, gosh, look,

there's the only thing that is free, are our notes which are going up and out of camp. And apparently it was very moving. If only people at home were here know what we were doing, they just wouldn't believe it. Well, Sheila wrote to her father when she was released. and you can hear Margie here reading the letter. Darling Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, with it, there is sad news for you and all of us. Mother died in Wintock on the 17th of January of this year, 1945. She was so brave and cheery all through this long internment.

When it was VE Day 75, our village outside Chich, put bunting up and there was a lot of celebration and people dressed up red, white and blue. So when it came to VJ Day, I got out the bunting and I put photos on the garage of granny and grandpa and mommy. And nobody asked me why I'd done that. And you can hear more about Britain's War Against Japan in a new BBC radio series on the history podcast

called The Second Map on BBC Sounds. That text number 84844, if you want to tell me about your Saturday jobs or anything else you'd like to comment on that you're hearing in the program. Now, on yesterday's program, I spoke to a pioneer of women's rugby, Deborah Griffin, the new president of the RFU. Have a listen back on BBC Sounds, if you missed it. She takes up the reins at a very exciting time as the women's rugby world cup being held in England starts next week. here to get us all in the mood

is the BBC's rugby correspondent Sarah Orchard. Sarah, welcome. A very good morning to you. Right, we want to get the lowdown. Get us ready for the World Cup, which starts next week. How significant is this tournament, first of all? Do you know what?

I think it is absolutely enormous. This will be the fifth Rugby World Cup I've covered for the BBC for the women. And I just don't think it's going to be recognisable from anything else we've ever seen to the point that I'm almost a little bit concerned almost about the next Women's Rugby World Cup in Australia in 2029

about what that's going to look like because of the advances that have been made particularly by England. There's going to be 16 teams. It's the first time we're returning to that format for a number of tournaments now and it's just going to look so much more professional the stadiums are going to be packed

and I just think we're going to see women represented in an incredible way that we just don't see on a regular basis and I think that's what's really going to make the biggest impact in this tournament. Yeah, really important as well, like women playing rugby, you know, so powerful. Exactly that. A lot of discussions around women's body image right now and that is something that England in particular have been huge advocates for about body shape

and how they can't operate as a team. on the pitch unless they look different. Different body shapes have a different role within the team. And if they all look the same, the team doesn't work. You have to look different. You have to have different skills. Your body has to have a different purpose. And that's really what it is about rugby union.

There is a place and a space for everyone. Right. So four home nations are involved. Let's go through them. We'll start with Wales and Scotland who are facing each other in their first game. How are they looking? I mean, that's an enormous game first round.

I mean, it's madness of scheduling, it's so enormous. But if we start with Wales, first of all, they had a bit of a tricky year. They hadn't won a game until just in the last few weeks, where they went on tour to Australia and they got a win over the Waller Rouge, which was huge for them under their new coach, Sean Lynn. So you'd say their trajectory is on the up,

but it's a big task. They have some wonderful battles with Scotland. Wales in particular, there's a bit of touch and go about whether they're co-captain Alex Callender, this wonderful back row she's going to be fit for that game. Fingers cross she is. As for Scotland, again, difficult build-up. There's a big question mark at the moment over Scotland's contracts. They are a professional setup, but not the whole squad at the moment have contracts beyond October. The Scottish Rugby Union haven't confirmed yet what the

situation is with the rest of the squad. And it's all whether that's going to really play into their psyche and how settled they are and how much focus they have on this tournament ultimately coming into it. So as much as they will be focusing on the game, there's so much going on off the pitch. Also, their head coach, Brian Easton, he's announced he's leaving after the World Cup. So they're a little bit discombobulated right now, Scotland, but that is an enormous first round match in Paul Bee. It's a big one, get us all involved. And Ireland, how are they looking? Ireland's a really interesting one, because you would say after England, they would be one of the favourites to go a long way in this tournament. And there's been some big chat coming from

the Irish. They've had a brilliant last couple of years since they brought on their new coach, Scott Beeman. They are the only team who have this wonderful record who have beaten New Zealand in the pool stage at a World Cup. And when I say New Zealand, they are the six-time world champions. They're going for a seventh when they arrive here. But Ireland, they beat them in 2014 in the pool stage. They also beat them last year when they were playing in a tournament called WXV. So they have a great record producing these big performances. The slight caveat

when it comes to Ireland at the moment, they've got some big injuries. They lost two wonderful players in Dorothy Wall and Aaron King that we would love to see playing because they're just fabulous. And there's also a bit of a question mark over the Six Nations player

of the tournament, EFA Wafer, who had to have a little bit of a little bit of a tournament called WAA. Oh, Sarah, you're Yeah, no, Sarah's line has gone, disappeared somewhere. So let's see if we can get Sarah back up. In the meantime, I'm going to read out more of your Saturday job messages. My first Saturday job, age 12 on a green grocer market stall, then aged 14.

K shoes in Brighton, measuring feet and fitting shoes for men and children. Loved it, but they did lock me in the shop one evening when they went across the road to the A passive I rescued me. Thank goodness. All fantastic experience for life, says Sally Ann in London. Another one here at 14 in 1964. I got my first Saturday job in a hairdressers called Vanity Fair in Farnborough, Hampshire. My pay was 10 shillings and sixpence for Friday night. And Saturday, that's 52.5 pence today. No perks like free haircuts. When I got a modern merryquant-like haircut in another salon, I was sacked for being disloyal. Outrageous. Have we got Sarah back now? Are you there, Sari? Are you with us?

Hello. That's better. It's all right. Just Gremlins. I mean, it happens. All right. Well, we were talking about Ireland and then let's talk about England as well. We can't not. Are they riding the wave of the success of the lionesses?

I mean, it's almost yes, but the pressure is just enormous on them ultimately. That's the biggest thing I actually worry about them. England, they are the world number one side. They are two-time world champions. They won it in 94 and then in 2014. They're unbeaten. in 26 games. The last game they lost

was the World Cup final when they played New Zealand back in 2022. The pressure is just enormous on them and it's how they ultimately ride it because they're not going to be able to shy away from it in any way, shape or form.

So their head coach, John Mitchell, has really just got to keep them grounded one match at a time. I think they'll have a pretty calm pool stage. They've got Australia, USA and Samoa, which, you know, they should be comfortable games. There's no two ways about it. But when it comes to knock out rug,

that is something else altogether. You mentioned 16 nations playing and you've named a few. And there are some teams making their World Cup debuts. Yeah, that's right. The big one on World Cup debut is Brazil. They're known as Asyaras. They're better known actually for competing in Sevens. That's when they really took off in the world of Rugby Union when Rio Olympics introduced Sevens as a competition.

So their women's team is predominantly made up of Sevens players. Look, they are ranked. quite a long way down in the world. I am expecting some big score lines against them. But a reminder to everyone, it doesn't matter if it's women's rugby or men's rugby. We do sometimes get big score lines at World Cup. So I was just thinking back to the men's rugby World Cup where France beat Namibia, 96-0. This does happen when you get a lot of teams on the international stage going up against each other, but still glorious that they are the first South American women's side to compete at a World Cup. Oh, and deserve all the

support. How are ticket sales going? they're going very well I don't think they've sold out all the games yet I can tell you you will find it very very hard to get a ticket to the World Cup final which will be held at Twickenham Stadium on all accounts they will have a few more allocations

as it gets closer and it also depends on which nations actually get to that final that they'll have final releases but if you haven't got your ticket already I think it is going to be a struggle and of course that is expected to be a world record crowd when they go in there The current record is actually for the Paras Olympics sevens, which is 66,000.

And I think they're going to smash that. Sarah Orchard, thank you so much for speaking to us. That's the BBC's rugby correspondent there, getting us all very excited. You can join me next Friday when I'll be live from Bladen Rugby Club in the North East, just down the road for where England begin their World Cup campaign. I'll be speaking to England star, Abby Ward, and also World Rugby's Sarah Massey. Also, apparently I'm going to get stuck in the scrum myself. So definitely wish me look about that.

and join me here on Woman's Hour at 10 a.m. next Friday week for all the excitement. Very quickly, I'm going to end with one of these. My Saturday job was in the 1960s at a local library in St Albans. I was 16. I remember a woman, an elderly lady, brought back a romance saying it was disgusting from beginning to end. I commented, you managed to get to the end then. Thank you, Anna, and thanks to all of you. Join me tomorrow for more weekend, Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Shari Valle. I've been investigating fraud for more than 20 years. It is not them being gullible or stupid. These are criminals, and it's often very organised. I'm Dr Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist.

Liz, your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism. I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster, but now I help the police to catch people like me. And that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging.

Listen now to scams. on BBC Sounds.