Woman's Hour - Women in Afghanistan one year after the Taliban took control, Children's Commissioner Rachel de Souza

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

It has been a year since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan. The country is in economic crisis, there are droughts and the lives of women and girls have been impacted hugely. Emma is joined by an expert panel including the first female deputy speaker for the Afghanistan Parliament Fawzia Koofi, the former Women’s Minister Hasina Safi and Samira Sayed Rahman, from the International Rescue Committee. They will discuss access to education for girls, what role the international community should play and the situation for Afghan refugees in the UK.Over the weekend we learnt the Crown Prosecution Service - the CPS - said it isn't going to be prosecuting any of the people who were arrested at a vigil for Sarah Everard who was murdered last year. We hear from Barrister Pippa Woodrow of Doughty Street Chambers in London who's represented two of the women in this case. The government says it wants to improve how victims are treated in the criminal justice system across England and Wales. As part of that aim, there's a draft Victims Bill. It wants to give more weight to what a victim of crime says, improve support for victims so they can recover better, and make it easier for victims to maintain contact with the criminal justice system and stay connected. But the Children's Commissioner says the experience of children as victims needs special attention in this Bill, as they have different needs to adults. The Children's Commissioner for England, Rachel de Souza, tells us more.Plus are you pro-pocket? Data shows the majority of women want them, but clothes don’t always have them. We’re joined by comedian Tiff Stevenson to talk about her love for them and fashion historian Amber Butchart, who delves into their history. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It is good to be back with you from holiday. I hope you've been faring well in the heat, if it's affected you. All I'm going to say about that situation is one word, chafe. And perhaps one more, thighs. Right, on with today's programme. As the prosecution of six protesters who attended the vigil for Sarah Everard has been dropped,

news you may have seen over the weekend after the Crown Prosecution Service said it was not in the public interest to proceed, I will talk to the woman representing two of the accused about a case many argued should never have begun. Pockets. Got any? Got enough of them? Do they actually work? I did discover two quite deep ones in my dress today. The best kind of pockets, surprise ones, which are serviceable. As a social media campaign launched by A Woman Goes Viral called Give Us Pockets, Let's Get Stuck In, and the Children's Commissioner will be here on the programme,

the Children's Commissioner for England. What are you meant to do if your nursery suddenly shuts down? Costs and job desirability are creating a toxic environment for some in the sector, leaving certain parents high and dry. As always, I would like to hear from you. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged your standard rate.

On social media, we're at bbc woman's hour and you can email me through the woman's hour website and very excitingly while i was away you can now send a whatsapp message using the number i'm genuinely excited about this 03700 100 444 data charges may apply depending on your providers you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And the terms and conditions of sending a message via WhatsApp can also be found on our website, I should say. But first, today marks a year since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan. The group has declared the 15th of August a national holiday in the country, despite being in the grip of an economic crisis,

severe droughts and food shortages. But it is the lives of women and girls that have most radically altered in the last 12 months. Most secondary school-aged girls have been banned from school. Women are unable to go to work or travel without a man present. A new report from Save the Children has found girls are almost twice as likely as boys to frequently go to bed hungry and that 26% of girls are showing signs of likely as boys to frequently go to bed hungry, and that 26% of girls are showing signs of depression compared with 16% of boys. Coming back to girls' education and the question of that, Zabihullah Mujahid, the chief spokesman for the Taliban, says he

cannot promise when girls in most secondary schools will be able to return to class. In some provinces, secondary school students from grade 6 to 12 can go to school. But we have problems in other places. Our latest scholars have issues with the safety of girls travelling to and from schools. We cannot only make decisions based on the situation in Kabul. We also have to consider villages and districts where people don't want girls to go to school. One year then of Taliban rule.

What now and what has happened? I'm joined now by a panel of three women with huge experience and knowledge of Afghanistan, of women's rights and also of the Taliban and what may be yet to come. Samira Syed Rahman is a communication and advocacy coordinator for the Charity International Rescue Committee and is based in Kabul. She joins me on the line. Good morning to you.

We also are joined by Hasina Safi, who served as Afghanistan's Minister for Women until August of last year, and as a Minister of Information and Culture before that. Hasina has been with me on Women's Hour before. You may remember her story. She told us of fleeing Afghanistan. She's now a refugee in this country with her family and a year on is still living in a hotel. Hasina, welcome back to the programme. Thank you for being with us. And in the studio with me, Fawzia Koufi was the Deputy Speaker for the Afghanistan Parliament and part of the Afghan delegation in talks with the Taliban until they ended last year. She's now based in London. Fawzia, good morning to you.

Good morning. Fawzia, if I may start with you, the 15th of August, it does mark a moment. And we were just talking before I came on air, and I was very struck by the fact that you said you're wearing black today. It is a day of mourning for everybody almost in Afghanistan and those who are not in Afghanistan. And it's especially the mourning day for women of Afghanistan, because since last August, they have basically lost everything.

And the Taliban have become even more tougher, more cruel on their approach and separation of women of Afghanistan. day by day. In fact, in the last 12 months since they have taken over, they have issued 28 decrees and verdicts to eliminate women's rights. So it means every month there is two decrees or verdicts every month. Can you believe if they could invest that time and energy on the economy of the country, on security of the country, probably things would have been better. But obviously, it's clear that women of Afghanistan are the Taliban's natural resistance against the Taliban. And Taliban regard them as their opponents and they're scared of the women of Afghanistan. This may sound a slightly odd question in light of what you've just said,

but your memories of last year this day last year did you think it would be this bad for women and girls or did you have any hope that the taliban could be different this time uh i'm sorry you're getting very emotional which is understandable you must have so many people that you you think of when i ask that question do you want me to give you a moment okay has seen a selfie let me come to you next if i may it's a very emotional uh time it's a very emotional day it's been a very difficult year um and i i know for you you and your family have have tried to to rebuild here but when you think of the 15th of august year, what comes to mind for you? Because you were trying to get out. Thank you very much, Emma. And thank you for BBC Hour for

the consistent follow up for women issues in Afghanistan. I think since last year, It has been, at least in my life, it was a black year. It was a year that all of us, I echo what my sister, Ms. Kofi, said. We struggled to build our nests, and it was very inconsiderately ruined. And whether it was social, economical, cultural, and political for women, I think not only for the women of Afghanistan,

it's a big loss for the women movement around the world, because no matter if we are segregated geographically, we are the same group. All women belong to the same. So it has been a disastrous year because in 24 hours, there is not even a minute that I remember all those sisters who are back in Afghanistan at risk, a widow who needs to go to a doctor with three, four children, and there is no male company to take the child to the doctor. A family who has lost their brother or father as a result of 40 years of war to go and get the day-to-day needs, but they need a mahram. Culturally, we never had to wear a forced niqab, which is not a part of Afghan women culture, which means that for the women in Afghanistan internationally, as well as with the de facto structure, which I have no expectation from, which we have really provenly seen since last year, 15 August last year. Day after day, every day there is a new law, there is a new directive isolating the women from the very high civil service positions

to the very low positions of public as a social activist, as a human rights activist, and as a women's rights activist. in the international history, because there has been an investment of over two decades. And how can it suddenly just ruin with all the very dedicated and honest tax money, which everyone has contributed as a part of the respect for the human community or humanity. Let me come back to that international point, if I may, just a bit later on, because I still want to get a picture of women and girls' lives, which you've been doing in that answer as well, as they are now and how they have changed. Samira, as I mentioned, works for the Charity International Rescue Committee, is based in Kabul. Samira, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you, Anna, for having me today. How is it today? I mentioned it's been declared a national holiday by the Taliban. It's quite quiet on the streets. We haven't heard much. We were expecting some celebratory fire, but nothing of the sort has happened thus far. It's a rainy day in Kabul, reflecting the emotions of many people today. And the edicts that we've just been hearing about, the amount of rules and constraints on women and girls' lives that have been building over the last 12 months, I mean, what can you say as a woman living there about how it's changed?

I mean, for women in Afghanistan, they're facing quite a bit of challenge when it comes to navigating the new administrative environment. Women are fearful of engaging with de facto authorities. There are instances of harassment and dismissal and lack of services reported. You know, these rights violating policies that have been introduced are having a very detrimental effect on the status of women here. And particularly from, you know, a humanitarian perspective, women are essential when it comes to humanitarian service delivery. And we are facing challenges when it comes to issues of mahram,

when it comes to issues of going through checkpoints, when it comes to our of mahram, when it comes to issues of going through checkpoints, when it comes to our staff delivering that aid. Yes. And of course, as you say, people struggling to, women struggling to keep up with what the rules are, how not to break them. There were reports over the weekend, I don't know if you saw any of these protests or heard anything about this, but women going out to protest, not in huge numbers, but trying to say, well, exactly to Hasina's point, we're here, we're educated, and we want to carry on being so, and we want to be able to work. And like the protesters, I think it's not fair to say that women are entirely out of the public space, or women are not working. Women are involved in every sector across the country.

While those positions and those roles have diminished over the course of the last year, women are an integral part of various sectors, whether that is the private sector, you have female businesses that continue to operate, whether that is the health sector, you have female doctors and nurses, whether that is humanitarian assistance. But not in the secondary schools, because that is the key difference as girls. Not in the secondary school. Then, you know, the blockage of girls from attending high school is very concerning because that leads to another generation of young Afghan women and girls

who will not be educated and cannot contribute to public life in the ways that they could have with that access to education. Fazia, let me come back to you. And I am very aware of how emotional this is. And also, because I said, there'll be so many that you'll be thinking of today of your friends, children, I'm sure who perhaps were at university age age or maybe trying to finish secondary school. What are their lives like at the moment? Well, I think Afghanistan looked like an open prison for the women, literally, and for the girls. I'm in contact on daily base with a lot of families, my voters, constituents, women protesters, young girls in our school that we support in Kabul

and other provinces. It's the mental health that is a big issue and nobody talks about it because if a generation is deprived of their, you know, opportunities for their future, not only education, but also work, access to resources, the liberties and freedom to breathe as a human being. That feeling is, of course, shocking. Like when you walk in the streets of Kabul, because I have been living under Taliban rule first time, I know how it feels when somebody constantly stop you on the checkpost and ask you, you know, where is your mahram? That feeling is not, of course, a bearable thing. And we're talking there about your male accompaniment.

You're talking about who has to be with you. Yeah, well, one of the Taliban's verdict is that a woman traveling outside the country for over 75 kilometers must be accompanied by a male companion, blood relative. But that does not even apply to far distances. In shorter distance also, they keep asking. So I have friends who travel in Kabul, and their cars are always stopped, and somebody asks them. That feeling that you feel that you're nobody,

that you must be accompanied by somebody to be protected. Of course, only women who undergo that pain understand the pressure. When it comes to women's presence in public life, I don't agree with Samira Jan, who says that women are not completely, you know, out of the public life. We're talking about the government's job. We're not talking about private sector or UN or non-governmental organizations or NGOs. When it comes to government, it's only health, education, and passport department that women can work. So women can work as nurses, doctors, in the passport department, passport and ID, national ID, because these are two very, you know, kind of expertise that it's very professional, that most of the Taliban people don't know how to do how to handle that.

So women can work there. Initially, can you believe it, Ima, women were not even included in the humanitarian aid distribution, like when the humanitarian aid distribution program started. So after a lot of lobbying by us and by other women groups with the UN, with international organizations, that they have literally started to bring women. For instance, with the Ministry of Finance, recently they have sent a letter saying that all the female staff should actually send one of their male members of the family to work for them or to work on their behalf, because this is an important job. Women should not come.

And in fact, somebody from the Ministry of Finance was telling me, this is a story that only those who undergo understand the pain. She was telling me that, you know, once in a month, they go to the Ministry of Finance to sign the attendance sheet. And in that day, they ask all the male members, the male staffers to stay home. And they send, they bring all the chairs, so literally the office equipment to the main yard of the Ministry of Finance, so that women should go and only use the, you know, the yard, they are not allowed to enter the offices. I mean, as women, you can understand

what does that discrimination mean when they are not allowing you to enter the Ministry of Finance And just before we get to trying to negotiate with the Taliban which I know you've got some experience of what is going to happen to those women or what is happening to those women who break the rules for instance there's a report today about girls going to secret schools that some are operating clandestine operations. What are the punishments at the moment? Are we seeing those happen?

We do also have like three, four schools in Kabul and provinces. So there has not been any evidence where, like, you know, the Taliban can enter a school building, they have schools and close some education institutions in Kabul. But we haven't experienced an evidence where they can come. Of course, those women who actually protest, we have seen that they are arrested, tortured, put in solitary confinement places. But not that, and sometimes they beat them, they wipe them, they whip them in the streets, but not, they haven't entered any school building to, like,

you know, take off the girls. So it's not to the girls as it stands. It's been to women who protest outside. And negotiating with the Taliban, we played a clip there from a spokesperson for the Taliban, giving the reason that the schools are clip there from a spokesperson for the Taliban, giving the reason that the schools are not open, the majority of the secondary schools are not open to the girls.

What is your understanding as to why there have been so many edicts against women? Well, Taliban have tried to build a narrative that they have changed, that they have become Taliban 2.0. And as the world, the people of Afghanistan seem to believe them. Now, I think all of us are trapped into our narrative that we created for Taliban. They were not genuine. I think when it comes to women's education in particular, there is a division. Taliban are not united in that, which is a good thing. We can leverage that division. But I think what they do is absolutely in contradiction to what they said during negotiation to us when I was negotiating with them and to the international community. And it's against the principles of Islam, the same religion that, you know, in the name of that religion, they deprive women from and girls from being, you know, free.

If you look at other Muslim countries, there is no Muslim country in the world that actually implements same measure. So the question is what kind of religion Taliban represent? And why is the Muslim world silent in the space of that separation against women of And that comes to Hasina's point. Hasina Safi, to bring you back in now, you were talking about the international response. I know for you, the last two decades of investment, the Western influence as well, but also it's an interesting question that Fauzi raises about the Muslim world and interference or intervention from those leaders or lack thereof. What do you want to see now, Hasina, from those leaders outside of Afghanistan when dealing with the Taliban?

Coordination, coordination, coordination. Planning, monitoring. That's what I want to see. From the international community, which definitely includes Muslims, which is who I see more specifically, I think they need to be very, very historically setting and analyzing the situation of the realities on the ground, which we have been tremendously advocating for in the month of June and July last year, that this is not Afghanistan of 20 decades back. Afghanistan has changed. Women have changed.

Food has changed. Men have changed. There is education. They want to stand on their own feet. So from the international community, I think there has been enough of bureaucracy and diplomacy. I would really ask and urge the international community to consider themselves as Afghans, to consider their daughters as Afghan daughters, to really seek and analyze the situation of how can they live if the situation is so suppressing for the children and for the women of Afghanistan. I think they really need to be considered, thinking about those who are at risk in Afghanistan, those who are waiting in the third countries,

and on the whole, for the future of Afghanistan. Besides the humanitarian urgent aid, what are the development initiatives which needs to get into practice for education for health for economical for economy and more specifically if there is no vision at a legitimate level which is a policy level which is a document level they can never help. Sorry, if I can, Hasina, because I was very struck when we first spoke on this program, not long after you fled to this country, you still had hope. You had hope of one day returning to Afghanistan. You had hope that the international community could do what you're talking about, coordinate. Do you still have that hope? Definitely I have. The world is moving based on hope. I always have hope. I have a strong hope.

I remember what you said, my sister Kufi, at the beginning. She's wearing black. We are all wearing black, but we are wearing blue and green on the top. Why? Because it's a world of challenges, but it's a world of hope. We will struggle. We will not sit back. Because each minute that we have invested in the last three days, what the situation is on the women protesters. But we are going to fight it and we are going to defeat it. There is always hope because we have the dedication and the commitment. I'm going to ask you a similar question, Samira, as someone who's, of course, living in Kabul, working for a charity. But also just on that first point, I mean, do you share that feeling of optimism with how you're trying to help at the moment? But also what's the reality of the international community's response when it comes to aid?

As an Afghan, I think it's very difficult to say that we don't have, we've lost completely all our hope. I think without like to echo what hasina john was just saying is you know without hope there's no possibility of moving forward um if we are hopeless how do we continue to contribute to our country and to our people on the issue of international aid um you know afghanistan is in the midst of a humanitarian crisis that is fueled by the decisions of the international community. As of August of last year, financial sanctions and the freezing of assets or Afghanistan's foreign reserves have paralyzed the economy here,

have created a banking crisis, have created a liquidity crisis. You know, to echo what Fazio John was saying earlier, the public sector, it was the largest employer in this country. Women across ministries have been sent home. Those who are being paid in those few sectors that she mentioned are getting a fraction of what they used to. You know, development assistance, which financed most of the previous government's service delivery, has halted. And this is having a horrific effect when it comes to service delivery. If we look at the health sector, I've been traveling to hospitals across the country.

You know, these hospitals, Afghanistan wasn't in a perfect situation prior to August 15th. It was still one of the poorest countries on the planet. It was still one of the worst places on the planet to be a woman, to be a child, to have access to health care. With these suspensions and funding, the health sector is on the brink of collapse. These hospitals are struggling when it comes to paying their employees, paying the nurses. They're struggling when it comes to getting equipment, pharmaceuticals, medicine. And all of that is exacerbated when you take into account all the various crises that this country has been facing over the last year, whether that's flooding, whether that's earthquakes, whether that's malnutrition, cholera rates. All of this is having a horrific impact on the Afghan people.

Fauzi, if I can come to you as the former deputy speaker for the Afghanistan Parliament. I mean, Hasina talked of hope. She talked of still thinking of being able to return someday. Where are you on that? And how long do you see this? I don't know if that's an impossible question, but how long do you see it until perhaps there is a better day, especially for women and girls? When it comes to our hope and optimism,

of course, people of Afghanistan traditionally have been people of hope and optimism. I remember during the first round of Taliban, I was looking down from my window and I could see in five minutes one car in Kabul streets because it was completely silent. But we were still hopeful. Now, of course, it's a transformed nation. It's not a nation of 1996 when Taliban first took over. And you can see the resistance, you can see different resistance, people are standing in different ways to resist what Taliban's policies are, especially women. So I'm hopeful. And in fact, when I left Afghanistan, I left it only for two weeks with a hope that I will return. But of course, Taliban have made it so difficult, not security wise, but politically, they have, they did not show any kind of, you know, steps to a political settlement that is acceptable for all and result a government that is legitimate and representative, representative of all the social groups of Afghanistan, but also women of Afghanistan.

And I think humanitarian crisis is the easiest narrative Taliban are using. The question I would have to Taliban, which I know that they are not good in governing because they don't have pay people's salary from their revenue, domestic revenue, instead of increasing the number of their security forces, if they could instead create more jobs. What about that? You know, there needs to be some accountability. I think humanitarian crisis is there. Obviously, people must be supported. But it's a people of Afghanistan have been taken hijacked by the Taliban and hostage. They are they are being used and utilized for Taliban to continue their power without any accountability. account? I think, first of all, the Doha agreement that Americans signed with them, that empowered them. That must be, you know, something that according to which Taliban must be kept committed. Taliban need to be committed to political process. There were four elements in that Doha agreement. But who's going to keep them committed? The people that signed

agreement with them. So those leaders, so you know, of course, Joe Biden and around the world. I mean, Emma, we went from one extreme to another with Taliban. We're getting a message just, for instance, while you're talking, saying, you know, from one of our listeners, I'm outraged by this government, the UK's government in action and a lack of a real working scheme to support Afghan people. Exactly. There is no political, you know, strategy beyond humanitarian crisis. So my question to all the world leaders is that what is your strategy about Afghanistan towards Afghanistan beyond humanitarian crisis? You know, beyond just talking about the numbers of people that are starving? What is more than that? We expect a strategy. I don't think there is a strategy, as Haseena Jansofi mentioned.

I don't think the world prioritises Afghanistan. I think Ukraine is taking over, understandably. It's a European war. But let's remember that the consequences of Afghanistan, abandoning and ignorance, is going to be much higher than it was in 2001, 11 September. Fawzia Koufi, thank you very much for your time this morning on a difficult day for you, for your

friends, your family and for those you're thinking of in Afghanistan. Samira Syed Rahman, a communication and advocacy coordinator for the Charity International Rescue Committee and still living in Kabul. Thank you to you today as well for taking the time. And Haseena

Safi, the former Minister for Women for Afghanistan and now actually here in the UK. Thank you to you today as well for taking the time. And Hasina Safi, the former Minister for Women for Afghanistan and now actually here in the UK. Thank you to you, Hasina. I just wanted to just check in on you and your family living here because, of course, that was part of what we spoke about. You're still in the hotel. Is that right? I'm in the hotel. Yes. And how are you and the family doing? We are alive, Emma. We are alive. We have food. We have shelter. We have the basic day-to-day needs. It's not a life of what we were doing in Afghanistan, but I think we are patient because so many people back there in Afghanistan are starving. So I will say that maybe this is the cost of life. We are living in here. Whenever, as a human being, there are times when we get frustrated. Then as a mother, I had to.

I have to inform my children that there are people who are sleeping hungry at night. That is what we heal ourselves through. Whereas I think even in such critical crisis, we need to sectorially divide the programs to really see within the people who have evacuated, how can we use their resource and experience for the benefit and effectiveness of the programme further. So that is what I would suggest. Haseena, you always teach me how to think about things in a different way, but also how you're coping. And I'm grateful for you to share that with us and our listeners this morning. Thank you, Emma, for always.

Thank you very much. A spokesperson for the Home Office just on that last point about resettlement, as it's been described, the UK will welcome up to 20,000 people in need of the Afghan citizen resettlement scheme already. We are proud this country has provided homes for more than 7,000 Afghan evacuees,

but there is a shortage of local housing accommodation for all. So speaking to Hasina's point there about patience and still being in a hotel a year on, while hotels do not provide a long-term solution, they do offer safe, secure and clean accommodation. We will continue to bring down the number of people in bridging hotels, moving people into more sustainable accommodation as quickly as possible. Thank you so much to all three members of our panel this morning and many of you getting in touch to express

your gratitude as well for the eloquence, the insight and the expertise of all three of those women today, a year on of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Now, over the weekend, we learned that the Crown Prosecution Service, the CPS in this country, is not going to be prosecuting any of the people who were arrested at a vigil for Sarah Everard, who was abducted, raped and murdered last year by a serving police officer. Hundreds of people, including the Duchess of Cambridge, you'll remember this, I'm sure, attended the event at Clapham Common in March 2021 at a time of the COVID-19 lockdown restrictions. Nine fixed penalty notices were handed out by the Met after the vigil, but six refused to pay the £200 fine. The Met Police tried again to take those six to court, but at the weekend, the CPS announced they no longer passed the legal test of whether it is in the public interest to bring the case to court. Well, the barrister, Pippa Woodrow of

Doughty Street Chambers in London, has represented two of the women in this case. And she joins me now to update us. Pippa, good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. And can I just say how inspired I am by the panel that we just heard from? Incredible women. Yes, it's incredibly striking. I was also reminded of the panel that we just heard from incredible women. Yes it's incredibly striking I was also reminded of the news bulletin just beforehand hearing about Scotland becoming the first country in the world to offer out free period products in schools and there we are talking about girls in Afghanistan not even able to access secondary school education but to come to what you're doing which is of course based on a good education, I'm sure, being a lawyer representing two women who went along to that vigil.

What happened this weekend, which meant that the two women that you're representing are no longer facing a case? The short answer is that the CPS effectively got involved and reviewed the case. There have been statements made by the Met in response to the news which could suggest that it was a CPS decision to bring these cases in the first place. That's just not right. These cases were initiated solely by the police under what's called a single justice procedure, which is a fairly opaque process that they have kind of routinely used during the pandemic. That doesn't have any CPS involvement and in fact any lawyers. It just goes straight to the court and a magistrate sits with the papers behind closed doors, on average considers them for about five to ten minutes and makes the decision.

And one of my clients was in fact criminalised because she didn't know that that was happening at all and she was just convicted in her absence. We applied to reopen that case and applied to have Jenny's case, my other client, moved out of the single justice procedure. And it's at that point that the CPS then assumed conduct of the prosecution and effectively have brought it to an end. So when it went into, if I put it in regular parlance, but you did a very good job, when it went into the standard court procedure, it was thrown out? Effectively, yes. So in terms of,

you know, there'll be some listening to this who've heard what you've said, you know, hopefully followed it, which will think that, you know, were they not breaking the rules to go in the first place? What would you say to that? Well, there is a High Court judgment that was given in the Reclaim These Streets case, which I acted in with other barristers and solicitors. And what that judgment said, it was handed down in March, in fact, before these charging decisions were made. The High Court said that the police simply hadn't understood the law when they were purporting to enforce these regulations, because the COVID regulations did ban gatherings, that's absolutely true. But those regulations were always subject to the fundamental rights,

including rights to assemble, to free speech, and globally, the right to protest. And that had to be considered within the enforcement of the regulations, within deciding whether or not a crime had been committed at all. The police simply didn't understand that. And as a result, they breached the organisers' rights. So why wasn't this dropped at that point? Is it about once you've entered something, you've got to keep going with it? Is it about saving face?

What would you say to that with your experience of the legal system? I really can't comment on their motivations, but there was absolutely nothing stopping them from bringing these prosecutions to an end far earlier. And in fact, there is a real question as to why they were ever commenced. Because as I say, the decision to start the prosecutions came over a year after the vigil and after the ruling that they'd acted unlawfully towards reclaiming streets. I understand not all six are women, most are, four of the six I believe are, but there have been some who said, you know, this has been another example of police and women and a witch hunt and it not being, you know, I'm paraphrasing

what some people have said, that this shouldn't have just happened in the first place. Although you could view this weekend as a victory, do your clients or those who've been affected by this, the others as well, do they also feel perhaps robbed that they didn't get a day in court? They may well do. There are quite a lot of questions that I think are left unanswered about the decisions made by the Met. And I think that is partly perhaps the reason why some of my clients feel that actually, although they're of course relieved that they've not been criminalised, they don't feel that it's good enough, really, because there's no accountability. There's nothing that's changed. The police haven't recognised any wrongdoing in prosecuting them for a case that CPS now

accepts should never have been bought and so they are pursuing sorry so a woman in demand that they some of them are going to keep pursuing some legal action is that right yes they are and it's and it's about accountability and they will pursue a civil claim which is in layman's terms a claim for compensation damages but uh i think it's not about the money for them that money will eventually if the case is won go to causes about helping women who are victims of violence but this is about forcing change because the judgment in the reclaiming streets case clearly wasn't enough they didn't learn the lesson then and hopefully they will now. Well of course there's a new

commissioner as well since then and much analysis to happen on that front. Barrister Pippa Woodrow of Doughty Street Chambers represents two of those in that situation. Thank you for your time. We'll let you get to that phone call. The Met Police Assistant Commissioner, Louisa Rolfe, in a statement has said, we know how important it was for people to remember Sarah Everard

and voice their anger. Officers took very seriously their duty to safeguard the public during the pandemic and to balance this with the rights of individuals. The decision to pursue a prosecution in these circumstances is entirely a matter for the CPS. The CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service, confirmed six prosecutions had been discontinued, saying, we have a duty to keep cases under continuous review

and we concluded that our legal test for prosecution was not met. Now, from such matters to an American woman's TikTok campaign, which has gone viral. Its name? Give us pockets. This is after a female construction worker complained that her trouser pockets were more shallow than the men's and didn't hold all her tools. Well, you can be telling me and some of you have already. Thank you for that, for some of your messages. What's your mobile storage solution, if I could put it like that? I mean, I love a pocket, but I was thinking about it,

even if I have one, maybe I'll put a bank card in there. They're not the sturdiest, are they, in women's clothing? There's a fascinating history to the pocket, believe it or not. Should we go a lot deeper than that? See what I'm doing here? It's awful. Awful jokes. Let's turn first to the fashion historian Amber Butchart, who's on the line. And I'll talk to the comedian Tiff Stevenson in a moment. But Amber, good morning to you.

Good morning, Emma. We are trying to learn about how long we've had pockets, how long we haven't had them. And apparently sometimes they were also movable. Tell us more. Definitely. So we start seeing evidence for the kind of pockets that we would recognise from the late 15th century onwards. And we especially see them in the 16th century because we find them in the wardrobe accounts of Elizabeth I, which is quite exciting. From after then through to the late 19th century, the type of pockets that women are most regularly using are detachable so these are

not pockets that we would recognize today but what they are is essentially these flat bags I suppose you might have two of them they're attached on a tape and you tie them around your waist now these are worn underneath an overskirt and you'd have slits in your overskirt so you can put your hands into your pockets. Now these pockets are really quite big they can be up to kind of 40 by 30 centimetres you can really carry around a lot in these pockets whatever is needed to date it for day-to-day life whether that's kind of domestic things such as sewing kits, thimbles, handkerchiefs, whether it's like personal religious items, like rosaries that you might want to keep close to you all the time. But also crucially, it allows a very unusual space of privacy for women at this time.

So you might also find in someone's pockets, letters, documents, things that maybe you don't necessarily want other people to see. So these pockets are really quite substantial. They're really quite exciting. And they can also be quite beautiful. They're quite often embroidered, just lovely objects in their own right. It's like an early iteration of bum bags, but sort of saddlebags on either side, it sounds. Very good, like very useful, but now we don't have such good ones, do we? No, exactly, exactly.

So this starts to die out towards the end of the 19th century as women's clothing becomes more kind of form-fitted. But also crucially, what we see at this point, we've seen various calls for dress reform throughout the late 19th century, second half of the 19th century. And this is really tied into increasing calls for women's political suffrage, but also calls for broader women's rights in general, like the right to property ownership. You know, quite basic women's rights we're talking about at the UK in this time and we see a few you know sort of succession of married women's property acts throughout the from the 1870s to the 90s which are gradually increased increasing women's ability to actually own their own things it's not

all given over immediately to the husband on marriage anymore and with these calls for dress reform you start to see pockets becoming a really big part of the conversation around the turn of the 20th century. And you start getting articles in places like the New York Times saying things like, we can't have equality between men and women if we don't have equality of pockets. You also see because it becomes very symbolic of this, you know, desire to walk through the world with ease to carry everything on you that you might need for day to day life. And also they become symbolic of, you know, money, we still say out of pocket, if someone doesn't have much money, and symbolic of generally ownership. So these kind of sewn in pockets that we're seeing

become something that you see in caricatures about suffrage campaigners at this time. This trope called the new woman, who was this educated, emancipated woman at the end of the 19th century, who loved cycling, she loved reading, she maybe smoked, things like this. And she's often depicted in caricatures with her

hands in her pockets it becomes a crucial marker of this particular type of woman at this time well a particular type of woman at that time Tiff Stevenson are you a particular type of woman who likes your pockets I love my pockets and I think if they say eyes are the windows to the soul, pockets are probably the windows to the personality, I think. Like at different points in my life, like when I was younger, when I was a girl, I was a real tomboy. And so I liked to have a yo-yo in my pocket and a piece of chalk. That was very important. I was going to say, what's in your pocket today?

What's in my pocket? I've actually got an eyeliner I literally just took out before. Excellent. And a bottle opener because I've got dungarees on. So that's not typical, though. Do you know what? One of the best questions I asked recently on the programme was after the Queen and the Jubilee. She was talking in that Paddington sketch

about marmalade sandwiches in her handbag. I asked what people carried in the bottom of their handbags and many women carrying tools, but I didn't hear about them doing it on their person. So well done you. Well, I mean, I think in my teenage years, it was a travel card, some chewing gum and some of that horrific cherry lip gloss

that looked like you'd smeared your lips with a greasy chip in case I wanted to kiss some boys. And now I'm older. I do have handbags as well. And as I've got older, my handbags got bigger and bigger for medicine and all of the things that I need to carry around.

My kit to stay walking. Oh, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. But there is something about putting hands in pockets and a dress with pockets. It's just like a godsend. Like it's, I'm so excited when I find something that's really beautiful and has pockets. And I don't tend to put as much stuff in pockets of a dress. It might be a chapstick. If it's jeans, my phone's going in there. And now it's like a stain removal wipe because I'm just constantly spilling things. We've got a lot of shout outs about jeans and the women's jeans in particular. If you're buying women's jeans, needing to have a greater depth. And also some very concerned messages coming in about the tiny pocket inappropriately placed on your T-shirt in the just above the boob. I mean, what's that about? What are you going to put in there?

Helen is very concerned about that. I mean, I don't know. What do you put in there helena's very concerned about that i mean i don't know what what do you put in there it's usually see-through as well it's a thin material a t-shirt so you're going to see whatever it is there's no discretion you're not going to get car keys in that are you you you are not so yeah we need them to be i mean dungarees that that's that's durable you're going to be able to carry a great deal but a lot of people getting in touch a lot of women saying this but also men men now, you know, just back to your point, Amber, men wearing more form fitting clothes, especially in the summer with shorts and tight shorts. Are we all right with the man bag as it's called? Are we OK with that, Amber? I'm definitely OK with that. I love a man bag like a nice satchel, especially is is nice for anyone to carry around, I think. But I think one of the reasons we have seen this kind of demise of pockets

over the last few decades, especially, see it really clearly in women's wear, but also, like you say, we see it in men's wear, is also to do with the rise of fast fashion. So this kind of, you know, this kind of system of fashion that has developed from the 90s, really, onwards, where profit is the absolute sort of driver of how clothes are designed and made often of course made by like exploited

workforces overseas but to put pockets in a garment you need more materials and you need more labor involved so i think well i think that's it was going to say, that's a very valid point, and it's a bit of an irony, of course, when you talk about being out of pocket, about how much it costs to add a pocket. We do have to leave it there. Fascinating to go back into the history and also to the present day with Tiff Stevenson there

in the history with Amber Butchart. Many messages coming in. You do love telling me what you put in your pockets, what you put in your bags, and I love being nosy. But I need to tell you who's walked into the studio. The Commissioner, the Children's Commissioner, I should say, of England, Dame Rachel D'Souza. In a moment, we'll be talking about work she's been doing to try and change the law on behalf of children. But just before we do, there's a story on the BBC News website, Rachel, this morning that's one of the most read so far about the sudden closure of nurseries in certain areas.

Providers blaming increased energy, food and staffing costs, as well as the struggle to recruit employees. Of course, hugely difficult for parents then left in the lurch, but also the children who have bonded with others. Absolutely. And stability is so important. I mean, the first thing I want to say is a massive thank you to all of the early years staff who've welcomed children back after lockdown and been doing an amazing job. I've always argued that the two places I think we should put the pound, you know, the government pound is both attendance, getting kids back to school, but also early years, because we know that actually early years education makes a massive difference in 16 year old outcomes, let alone what it does in terms of childcare. I mean, I'm out doing the family review at the moment and parents right across the country,

young parents are talking to me about how those nurseries are like family. They're part of their community, especially young families who are away from, you know, the wider family because they've moved away for work. So I think it's time. I think, you know, obviously the stability issues need dealing with now,

but I also think it's time to do some real thinking about how we can create a sustainable model for that early years education and childcare that's so important. Kids need the best start and we can't have this happening. Well, yes, of course, when we talk about, and it's now becoming not a catch-all phrase, but the cost of living crisis, it's not just, of course, although it's a very big part of it, the bills. It's about where those bills are and how suppliers, different suppliers and providers of services are coping.

And as you say, how it then hits bonds and communities. And from your perspective, children, you mentioned about post lockdown and welcoming children back. I know you're not a fan of this phrase and i can understand why but the so-called ghost children those thousands of children who haven't returned to the school system you've been looking at this for the last year i understand absolutely i mean i was i so i have particular powers to call for um data that held on children by any public body and so i really really, you know, I looked into, I talked to every single local authority area and found out exactly how many children there are

in their areas and actually couldn't get a clear answer. So there were some data issues there, but also just how many children aren't back at school. And we're talking about 50% more, both persistently absent, missing 10%, and severely absent, missing more than 50 percent so that's 1.7 million in the first term this year were were persistently absent and you know about about 100k around 100k severely absent it's a really big problem and that's why i've been

saying september is a key moment and we need to coalesce around these children. I've gone out and talked to the children too. So I haven't just sat and looked at data. I've talked to hundreds of children. And the three big reasons they're giving me are the special educational needs not been met. So I'd just rather stay at home. There's mental health issues, anxiety, need the support. And there's just got used to not going, not going back.

And, you know, that's a huge number of children. And yet those children have got big plans for their futures. They know they need to be in school. So all of us, Emma, you know, when we were at school and, you know, used to think September's a new start. So I think now is the moment that we should be having those conversations, whether it's schools, whether it's local authority support, whether it's services, whether it's mum and dad, you know, whether it's the child themselves, just getting around and having those conversations and saying, what do you need to get back to school? And let's just

deal with it and sort it. It's got to be a national priority. We've got to have a prime minister who's going to be in the job that's meant to be in place right at the beginning of September, a back-to-school element of this. But you've been working on, in the interim, if we could call it that, as the Conservative Party, try and pick the next Prime Minister, the Draft Victims Bill. It hasn't been laid before Parliament. It's an important document, of course, because it's about improving the way victims are treated in the criminal justice system across England and Wales. You're concerned that there isn't enough focus on children. Tell us more. Yes. So, look, the Victims' Bill is a good thing in the sense that it's trying to recognise victims, put them on statutory footing and make sure their voices are heard and their needs get met.

But it only mentions children twice in the whole thing. And in its mention of children, it's only in relation to their parents as victims. So I've been talking to lots of child victims. I've also talked to Sammy Woodhouse, who you'll remember from the Rotherham abuse grooming gans. So with a particular look at children who are criminally exploited. And then go on to be criminalised themselves.

Exactly. And Daisy, you'll have heard the Daisy story. Daisy's a 40-year-old woman who was the child of rape. And so I've got, I'm publishing today my recommendations to make sure all those categories of children who should be recognised, first of all, recognise children in every aspect of the bill they need different support to adults they you know and we can talk about what it can be secondly recognise the children of rape because you know they I mean if you look at Daisy's story

she was unable to take her father to court for what he'd done she wasn't even recognised as a victim of rape we need them to be recognised I've had her i've interviewed her on this program and if people miss that they can look that up and catch up with her very powerful story and her fight really uh which has defined a lot of her adult life uh they

can look that up on bbc sounds but but carry on yeah and um i mean so so that the sammy woodhouse case is i mean i mean she was did a couple ofences that her abusers made her do. And of course, that's now on her record. She was a child. It's on her record and it's affecting her adult life. She's spoken really eloquently about that. Now, I know it's tricky, but we need to recognise, get these records wiped and recognise children who are exploited. How would your changes, your proposed changes,

mean that somebody like Sammy wouldn't have a criminal record? Children who were criminally exploited in the way that she was would be recognised by the bill and then her record could be wiped when appropriate investigations are taken place. So her record could be wiped now retrospectively, you would hope, through this, but also those who then are in the terrible situation or something similar to her wouldn't even have this in the first place.

Absolutely. And also the fourth category we're looking at is children who are victims in their own intimate relationships under 16s because at the moment that's not recognised. But bottom line line this is about getting support for children as victims if we we can get into the complexities but actually basically if you recognise children as victims. So it's about legally recognising. Yes then we can

actually ensure that local authorities and others give them the support that they need and there are some great models so although um yeah only about 30 percent of adults who are who are victims say that their children that who have children say they've got the proper support um and although um you know uh convictions for child sexual abuse have fallen over four years by 50%, despite both of those things, there are some really good models in the UK. We've got an Icelandic model, the Barnhus model, that actually brings all the partners together and puts the support around the child victim. So we've got that going on. Now, I want everywhere to be as good as the best.

And the best way to do that is to recognise them in this bill, give children a legal recognition as victims. You know, it's awful. It's hard to face. We want to turn away from it. But children really can be victims of the most awful crime and have awful experiences

and need to be dealt with. We have, I feel, only just started to hear some of those stories from those who were children as young adults or even older if they're able to talk about it. I feel you're about to leave the studio march out with hands in your pockets always love pockets i was a teacher for years i've got my pens in there yeah yeah did you try and actually have pockets because you're a teacher always always always we need to

you should start a campaign emma i want women's clothes to have great pockets well no i noticed you uh nodding vociferously during. Can you nod vociferously? No, nodding, nodding viciously. Can we say that with passion? Excitedly. There's the word. The teacher's helping me here.

It's my first day back from holiday. I'm getting my teeth in. Dame Rachel D'Souza, the Children's Commissioner of England, laying out her plans there and also her reaction to a scenario that may be affecting you. I should say if your nursery has just suddenly shut down. Please do get in touch. It'd be very good to hear from you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.