Woman's Hour - Women in Country Music

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

From Beyoncé's new country album to Shania headlining Glastonbury, country music is reaching new heights of popularity. Who are the women leading the charge, who are the icons who inspired them, and how many barriers are still left to be broken?We speak to one of its biggest female stars, Carly Pearce, who went from working at Dollywood aged 16 to becoming a Grammy and three-time Country Music Association winner.We explore the sexism still facing women in the industry as female singers remain dramatically underrepresented on US country radio, charts and awards. We also discuss the growth of the genre in the UK, why it's inspired countless films and TV shows, and its history and icons from Dolly Parton and Linda Martell to Patsy Cline.We're joined by Marissa Moss, author of Her Country; Beverly Keel, co-founder of Change The Conversation; Alex Hannaby, Head of UK at Big Machine; Simeon Hammond Dallas, singer-songwriter; Helen Brown, arts journalist; Professor Francesca Royster, author of Black Country Music; Nicole Taylor, screenwriter; and Zoe Hodges, music journalist.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say, for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been shortened or removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Hope you had a very good Easter. But now, for this Monday programme, we're going to be keeping a country for the next hour

because country is having a moment. Beyonce has just released Cowboy Carter. Lana Del Rey has announced an upcoming country album and the country queen herself, Shania Twain, will be playing Glastonbury. Maybe like me, you were just a gog looking at Tracy Chapman's performance at the Grammys. She played Fast Car with country star Luke Combs. We're going to speak this hour about the growing interest in

the UK and the genre, also the influence on TV, film and clothes. And we'll celebrate the female icons that we know and love, but also the battles that remain for women in the industry. We're not live today, but you can join the conversation on social media, that is at BBC Woman's Hour, or email us through our website. But why don't we start with a Nashville superstar? Carly Pearce is an American singer-songwriter who went from performing at Dollywood to becoming a Grammy and then three-time Country Music Association award winner. Her last album was called 29, written in stone. It was critically acclaimed and it chronicled her divorce from a fellow country music star. We're going to hear a track from that album in just a short while. Do stay with us for that performance. She also has a new

album that we will talk about. But when I spoke to Carly, I began by asking her when she first fell in love with country music. I don't remember a day that I didn't love country music. My parents say that when I was a baby that Vince Gill was the only artist or music or thing that would keep me from crying. So I think it was always in my DNA. I know that as a five-year-old, I vividly remember putting on shows for my parents and saying I was going to sing on the Grand Ole Opry one day. So let's talk about five-year-old Carly. My understanding is you went to Dollywood. I did. And that is, for those who don't know it, a Dolly Parton theme park, which is co-owned by Dolly. It's in Tennessee. Do you remember that trip? I went to Dollywood as a child just because I loved

Dolly. And I always loved it, but I never thought like, oh, I'm going to work at Dollywood one day. But when I was 16, I saw an audition to sing in the country show there. And I was a good student. I wasn't trying to get out of high school. I wasn't trying to run away from anything. I had a really great life, but I knew I wanted to sing. All my friends knew me as the singer. And so I asked my parents if I could quit high school and move five hours away to Pigeon Forge if I got this job. And my parents were like, no, you're a freshman in high school. Yeah. And I said, well, I'm going to get my license before then and I'll find a homeschooling program. And my dad said, okay. And I got my, I moved to Pigeon Forge with my mom and I lived in a one bedroom grizzly bear decorated apartment with my mom.

And the week before I had my first rehearsal for the show, I got my driver's license. And I was the youngest by six years, which you think about that 21 to 16. That's a very big age gap. But I just walked in and I did six shows a day, five days a week. What a training. And so obviously you were there. You were working really, really hard. Next stop?

Nashville. There was probably no were there. You were working really, really hard. Next stop? Nashville. There was probably no question there. I'm thinking that you were already on this path. I moved there when I was 19. And it was crazy. And it took me a really long time to get noticed. What is it like when you get there? Because I've often heard of musicians going there. And I'm wondering, is it like Hollywood with all wannabe actors? Oh my gosh. Yes. You're like a really, really small fish in a huge pond. And I just like tried to meet people and played every writer's round that I could and wrote with anybody.

And I remember getting like little jobs that I was an Airbnb cleaner so that I could make my own schedule so that I could write songs in the morning or write songs at night or go to shows. I mean, it was just a hustle for a long time. I heard no a lot before I heard yes. And I also felt like, you know, when you're 19, 20, 21, 22, these are like pivotal years of you trying to figure out who you are. So if you're continuing to be told no, or you're not enough, or there's somebody just like you, or your songs aren't that great, it gets in your mind. And I started to believe that maybe I just wasn't enough. Was being a young woman a help or a hindrance? When I first got there,

there were no females on the radio at that time. And you think about like country music in the 90s and women ruled. But in this period of time, kind of before the wave that is now a part of me, you really only had Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert and Taylor Swift. Some people would have like hits, but it wasn't like a career. And I felt like I would go in somewhere and I was almost penalized for being a woman. And it was really hard. In what way do you think being penalized? I think people thought women didn't work on radio, which is crazy. Okay, I'm taking that as a personal offense. It was crazy. And I used to always think like, no, like when I was growing up, this is that women didn't like female a woman is writing music, she's writing for the other women. And men can't write songs for that.

You know, we can relate to that, but it's not the same. It's not that perspective. And I always felt like that was such a cop out. And I was like, there's no way that women would rule like they did with, you know, Faith Hill and all the ladies in the 90s, Shania and Leigh-Anne Womack and all these women. It was an interesting thing. But once there started to be a few women get through and show, I mean, we've come so far in the time that I've been in Nashville. Yeah. How long ago was it when you were in Nashville? I moved in 2009.

Okay. So we're talking about 15 years or so. Shall we talk about Every Little Thing? Sure. Talk me through that time. That was a hit single for you. You secured a major record deal, I believe, after that. I did. I wrote Every Little Thing as an unsigned artist with my then producer, Busby. And I wrote that song just because I loved it.

I wasn't chasing radio. I was so done with like everything that Nashville was telling me, you know, you need to write up tempo, you need to write this, you need to do this. And so I just wrote this little heartbreak ballad that felt kind of bluegrassy, kind of haunting, kind of like just exactly what I wanted to be. And before I knew it, it caught wind on Sirius XM radio and I had record deal offers and all these kinds of things. It was the most mind-blowing period of time in my life because it was like all of a sudden the timing was right and the song was right and I was getting yeses. And so it took me a really long time to understand that this wasn't going to go away.

Carly, your last album was called 29, written in stone. And you've called turning 29 the year you got married and got divorced. That must have given quite a bit of material. I think that's the most country thing that could ever happen to somebody. Yeah, I, you know, it was the global pandemic as well.

So we were all forced to be at home. And I think I was forced to either let this control me or do something about it. And the only thing that I could control was writing about it. But I think it is what saved me during that time. It was like my diary. Do you ever feel scared about showing your diary to the world?

I did before I put that album out. I knew that that album was going to show people a side of me that they hadn't seen. I knew that it was attached to a relationship that was very public. So I was definitely scared from that standpoint. But I think what that has done now is it has liberated me. I was embarrassed at first. I was humiliated. I felt a lot of shame.

I felt a lot of embarrassment that I had failed, especially being a young woman living in the South, in the States. Divorce is kind of something that you don't do. And I felt like what that situation did for me is now it's given me so much purpose outside of just singing country songs. It's given me a space to show people that no matter what your story is, you can own it and be proud of it and not be ashamed of it, which I think has then now led me to be way more confident as a songwriter and as an artist and really as a person. Those emotions, I'm sure so many of our listeners will identify with them in whatever situation it is, whether it's divorce or another. We are going to hear a track from that

album. That's what he didn't do. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the track before you get into it with Nick Hedleston is on guitar, who will be accompanying you? Yes. It's my biggest song to date. It was a number one in the States for me. And it's been incredible to see where I was when I wrote that song. I needed to be reminded that I deserved better. And now I get to remind all of especially the women at my shows that they deserve better if they're on that journey. So it's been a really sweet success story out of a lot of really bad things. Okay, well, let's hear it. And all I know is in the end, it wasn't what he did. No, it was what he didn't do.

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Carly, and also Nick Huddleston with you on guitar and vocals. I want to come to a full circle moment. We talked about Dollywood. But Dolly Parton surprised you with an invite to the Grand Old Opry so this is this legendary country music venue in Nashville

for those that aren't country music fans what did that mean to you? Oh my gosh I mean the Opry has been my dream just as much as being a country music singer I wanted to be a member of the Opry and so to have that moment where I have this person that has been so influential in my life and everybody else's

life that wants to do this, come and asked me to be a member of the family that I wanted to be a part of so badly. It was one of the greatest moments of my life. And when she said it, I dropped to the ground. What is Dolly like in person? She smells really good. I'll say that. I've gotten to work with her quite a few times in the last couple of years. And she's just such a delight. She's everything that you would want her to be.

She's kind of like a fairy godmother, yet unattainable, yet also like your friend. She's like a great aunt. Hummingbird is your upcoming new album. Why is it called that? Somebody told me that hummingbirds are a sign, like, I guess it's been said, and I looked it up to make sure that hummingbirds are a sign that the healing process can begin and that good luck is on the way. And that's what the last few years have been for me in so many different ways. And it just felt like this album and this season has been that doing the work and still doing the work and still trying to figure out how to fully heal. And there's been so much luck through pain.

If you would have told me that that album would make me two-time female vocalist, Grammy winner, all these awards that I have, Grand Ole Opry member, the home that I have, just the life that I have, I would have never, never believed it. And I think for me now, so much bigger than just music and being an artist on the radio, my purpose is to show people you can use pain for purpose. And your story, there's light after darkness. There's like a lot of light after darkness. And maybe the best season is coming after you kind of rebuild yourself from the ground up. That was Carly Pearce.

Her new album, Hummingbird, that we spoke about there will be released on the 14th of June. She'll also be touring the UK in February 2025. Thanks so much to her. Now, we just heard of a great success story there in the form of Carly Pearce. But what about other female artists in country music? As Carly alluded to previously,

the likes of Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Leigh-Anne Rimes, they all dominated the US country music charts and the airwaves. That was in the 1990s. But representation of women has declined since then. According to the Song Data Project, it looked at over 150 country music stations in the United States. Songs by women received less than 10% of airplay in 2023. So what are the barriers facing women trying to make it in country music? To discuss, I'm joined by Marisa Moss, journalist and author of Her Country,

how the women of country music became the success they were never supposed to be. And Beverly Kale, the co-founder of Change the Conversation, an organisation that fights for gender equality within the country music industry. Marisa, first off, why did you want to write Her Country? I moved to Nashville from New York about 12 years ago. And kind of the first thing I noticed when I was a reporter covering country music was how there were so many amazing women in Nashville making music, but they weren't getting songs on the radio.

And in Nashville, that's kind of the ultimate path to success is do you have a number one song on country radio? And I kept seeing that this was happening with women around me all the time, the women I listened to albums that I love, they weren't getting played. And I would see that sexism, you know, filtering through kind of every permeating through kind of every layer of life in Nashville. And so I kind of started digging into it and following the careers of Casey Musgraves and Maren Morris and Mickey Guyton and Carly Pierce and all these different women. And it just kind of eventually rolled into a book because I wanted to tell a story that country radio would know. And I wonder, Beverly, I mean, we mentioned there are some of the big stars of the 90s, Shania Twain, Faith Hill.

Women seem to be dominating then. How do you understand the decline? Well, I think it was just the belief that women didn't resonate with country music fans, which of course is a fallacy. I mean, look at the biggest tours of the year is Beyonce and Taylor Swift, who have such a huge fan base, they can change the economy of a country. So I think in Nashville, generally female artists are not as respected as male artists so male artists are considered the norm for a country music singer so females are almost an anomaly and then they were um playing what they called bro country which was the music of uh luke bryan and florida georgia line and um had some you know hip-hop rhythms in them. And then they would say that

female music didn't fit into that. You know, it really came to a head in 2015 when a radio consultant told an industry trade publication that he advised his stations not to play many women, don't play women back to back. And he said that men like Luke Bryan and Keith Urban are the lettuce of a salad and women are the tomatoes. And that became a rallying cry for women in Nashville. Tomatogate, I have read about this. Or Tomatogate, maybe it was called in Nashville. But it's quite shocking. I mean, going back to you, Marisa, does that line up with the research that you have done with what you have found?

It does. And I mean, the wild thing about Tomatogate was it was horrible what this programmer was saying, but he was saying the truth that everyone, well, not the truth, he was saying what everyone believed. He was just saying the quiet part out loud. Let's talk about radio being king when it comes to country music. Is that a gatekeeper then about trying to get women promoted within the industry? One hundred percent. I mean, for better or worse, that is what controls the Nashville economy that controls who's successful, that controls who gets to play on top of all the festival bills. So I'm sure you even see that trickle over in C2C in terms of who the headliners are, because those

are the biggest radio stars coming out of Nashville. If you don't get a number one, you're not going to get to top the big festivals. You're not going to get those opportunities that are offered to the Lukes and the Jasons and the Morgans and all of those dudes that roll through town nonstop. So women have really had to make a mechanism outside of Nashville to find success. And that's what you're seeing with someone like

Kacey Musgraves, who is able to, you know, she's never even touched a number one in country radio, but she's selling out arenas and she's built an entire, you know, an entire fan base outside. And what's she doing? Where is she putting her music? She's reaching her fans in a different way. She's not using country radio in Nashville. She's not playing the rules. She's appealing to audiences outside of, you know, the cis, het, white, male norm. And she's speaking from a place of honesty that's not controlled by what you're supposed to do in Nashville for success. That said, that doesn't work for everyone. It works for Casey. She's an extraordinary artist, but it can't work for everyone. So you have, you know, tons and tons of extremely talented female artists who have no way to kind of get their music out into the world.

Well, let's talk about one particular woman, Beyonce. She has just released her new album, Cowboy Carter. Beyonce became the first black woman ever to top the Billboard Country Songs chart in the United States. Beverly, why has it taken so long, do you think? You know, Marisa was outlining some of the issues for all women, but then a black woman. I believe the gatekeepers of country music thought that country audiences would not accept a black female. You know, I think it's sad that it took until 2024 for a black woman to have a hit in country music. It's especially sad it took a global pop icon to make that happen.

My hope is this will open the door for lots of other women, from Britney Spencer to Mickey Guyton. You can just go on and on. There's so many talented women of color who perform country music, and so I hope this is the first of many. Beyonce, as we know, is political. You know, if you look at any of her albums, she's never backwards about coming forwards

in the things that she believes in. But Marisa, I'm wondering, in country music, what is the situation for female artists to speak out? And I'm thinking particularly about the term chicked, which arose from the Dixie Chicks, as they were formerly known. They spoke out about Iraq and were ostracized. They then called themselves the Chicks. But that had massive ramifications for that female country group? Oh, gosh. I mean, they were the biggest band in country music, but they were also huge across the pop spectrum. They were playing at Lilith Fair, the festival of all women across all genres here in America. They were, you know, on MTV, they were everywhere. And in a second,

they were gone. I mean, the drop off the charts was so rapid. And it had ramifications till this day still. As soon as I moved to Nashville, I heard that term, you don't want to be chipped. And that meant that you don't want to speak out and then have people basically kick you off the radio for what you said. And this really, I think, sure, it applies to men, but really, I think it applies to women, because I don't think men receive the same sort of penalization that women do for speaking out at all. And it still hangs over Nashville. And when I moved here, and I started interviewing women, it was very hard to sometimes get people to open up because you

could tell they were so nervous. You could tell there was just, you know, they would bring their publicist in, they would be guarded on what they said because they were so nervous that if they said something wrong, there would go their chance to have a number one song. But with something that perhaps does not seem that controversial to some. There are many country music female singers who have done a lot for women and women's careers and, you know, working in the industry, but they won't use the word feminist. Beverly, have you come across that? It's very interesting because to me, a feminist is somebody who believes there should be equality among the sexes, period. That's it.

And some view it as a political term. I think Dolly Parton has said that, you know, when asked if she's a feminist, she says no, but she is the epitome of a feminist, right? She is her own woman. She has her own voice. She builds her own business. She runs her career. But, you know, women are so afraid sometimes

of the questions. Who does she think she is? You know, doesn't she know her place? So it's just it's like in the monologue in the Barbie movie. Like you have to you have to want money, but you can't ask for it. You have to be pretty, but not too pretty. You have to be this, but not that. I would say it's even greater for women in country music. And you have to walk this thin tightrope. And it can be exhausting. But imagine the pressure of not doing or saying the wrong thing every day. How about that, Marissa? And I'm wondering, are things changing or getting better in any way because there's kind of a dichotomy isn't there of loving this music

but it having these aspects that you don't agree with It's a really hard genre to love sometimes the music is not hard to love the genre and the system and the town that squeezes out women, Black artists,

queer people is very hard to love. You know, what Beverly was just talking about, we have all of these constraints, fears placed on women every day in Nashville, but their chances of having a number one or getting played on radio is so slim anyway that I think a lot of women are starting to realize that. Why bother? You know, why bother? I'm not going to get a number one song on country radio. It's not going to happen. You know, there's one chosen woman at a time. Basically, right now, it'sey Wilson. Love Lainey Wilson. I'm so happy that she's succeeding, but it doesn't bring in, you know, 20 other women that are now having number ones because Lainey Wilson is out there and she's awesome. It just means that Lainey Wilson's the one. So I think a lot of women are looking at that and saying, this isn't working. I'm not

going to get a number one. I'm not even going to get a top 30. So screw this. I'm going to build a fan base and a life and a career outside of country music, the genre, not the music. And I think that's something that came up even when Maren Morris was talking about, you know, sort of, quote, leaving country music. Nobody knows what the music she's going to make sounds like. It might sound very country. But I think what she means is I'm not going to follow the rules of what it takes to be in this box that closes out and pushes out so many people. So I think women are finding means of success and audiences and connections just outside of sort of the Nashville constraints. My hope is that I see more women building a country universe of their own. just outside of sort of the Nashville constraints. My hope is that I see more women building a country universe of their own.

And Maren Morris, for those who don't follow country music, is a very successful singer-songwriter. I want to thank Marissa Moss, journalist and author of Her Country, How the Women of Country Music Became the Success They Were Never Supposed to Be, and Beverly Keel, who's the co-founder of Change the Conversation. Now, let's take a little bit closer to home. What is happening in the UK? Well, according to the official charts company,

country music is the fastest growing musical genre in the UK for streaming in 2023. It's also growing in popularity in other ways. There are several radio stations, for example, dedicated to country music. And many of you will have heard of the huge country-to-country festival that takes place each year. Last year, it attracted

over 20,000 fans. I went along this year and let me tell you, it was like I had arrived in downtown Nashville with the glitz, the glamour, the rhinestones, the denim, the cowboy boots and the hats,

instead of the O2, where I actually was, in London. They also had events in Glasgow and Belfast, which is a testament to its popularity. Well, here to tell me all about it, I'm joined by Alex Hannaby, head of UK at the record label Big Machine, which represents many country artists, including Carly Pearce, who you were hearing a little bit earlier, and Sheryl Crow, who no doubt you will also know. Alex, you're very welcome. Just how popular is country music in the UK? It's been an absolute pleasure to see how much it's increased in the last few years.

You mentioned the statistic about it being the fastest growing genre on streaming and it's four times faster than the average market increase. But why do you think? Why was there that shift? There's so many theories about it. I think what was interesting about the conversation we just had was that a lot of the American artists, especially women, aren't getting as much radio play or able to do maybe as much over there. And I've really seen an interest in the last six or seven years of more and more artists coming over to the UK. And I think that could be one part of it. We talked about Casey Musgraves, who was very much

embraced by radio here and able to come over multiple times a year. And that could be part of the reason. But there's many things that we identify to it, C2C, that you were just talking about as well. Yeah, Country to Country, I loved it. I had a great night. It's an incredible festival. Nashville, the TV show was a huge other way to bring the genre. Another great thing. Taylor Swift's music, you know, we talk about Beyonce bringing maybe some of her fans to country music. The same thing happened with Taylor Swift as she moved over into pop. It just introduces a whole new generation of people, I think, to this kind of music. And what we're seeing that's really interesting about that is it's the younger generation that are streaming this more and more. You recently launched a new country specific chart for the UK.

What's the criteria to get on and what counts when we get into genres of a country track as opposed to a pop track? I managed to duck that by the radio chart that we created it was a group of us at the CMA task force that wanted to find a way to measure and represent with all the new radio stations how we can track how something's doing so we actually take music that the radio stations are playing that are country music so whatever they say is country music I don't have to decide that luckily. But just before I let you go, Alex, the industry is growing here at the moment. It's really, I suppose,

much younger than it is in the United States, in a way, in its popularity. But do you think you can create an industry that is more equitable compared to what we were hearing from how my guests see Nashville? Yes, I think what I will say is I know a lot of people

that work in the industry in America as well as here. And there are so many people behind the scenes that are fighting to make this more equal. And I really do think that is really important to understand. I think we're lucky enough that a lot of the platforms that have come about in the last five years, all these radio stations, they've been able to start off with the remit

of we're going to play 50% women and men. They could start from day one doing that. So I do think, yeah, we've almost been able to start afresh and create it in a slightly different way, which is really exciting. Well, I wish you luck with it. Alex Hannaby, head of UK at the record label Big Machine, which represents Carly Pearce that you heard and also Sheryl Crow. But I want to turn to the Camden bass singer Simeon Hammond-Dallas, who is sitting beside Alex. And you had a performance at the Country to Country Festival. You've released two studio EPs, the latest called Make It Romantic. You're very welcome. What got you into country music?

2004, Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway album. I that album so much and I was at the age where like feelings are so prominent because you're you know young and everything hurts well a lot of heartbreaking country music let's be honest um yeah and then I loved like the first couple of Taylor Swift albums. And yeah, I think it just kind of happened. I don't really think that I went into country music, but, you know, I grew up in Camden Town. There was music everywhere from all kinds of genres. And I didn't really pick one. How would you describe your sound?

I usually describe it as kind of bluesy country soul. Let's see if we agree. We're going to play a little off your debut single, Wild Woman. Love it. What's the story behind that song? So I wrote that after I left a record label that I was signed to. There were a couple of things and one of the big ones was that they wanted me to change my name that I was very passionate and proud of. So I decided to leave the label and then kind of release this as my debut single under my full name. Why would you change your name when you've got like a name Simeon Hammond Dallas? I know, it's very country, isn't it? It's very country. I'm not sure you can get more country than that. This is another song from your latest album. This is called The Blues Is A Game. Let's hear it.

And that song, what's behind it? So I wrote that song during the pandemic in 2020. And I don't know if you remember during the lockdowns, we had the Blackout Tuesday thing. Yes, of course. So people were posting black squares on Instagram. Yeah, on their profile, basically. Yeah.

To support the Black Lives on Instagram. Yeah, on their profile, basically. Yeah. To support... To support the Black Lives Matter movement, yeah. And I've played in a lot of blues bars around London and I've heard people say questionable things. And on that day, on the Blackout Tuesday, I saw someone who had been saying, I guess, racist things at the bar post a black square. And I just thought, you're a hypocrite and you go on stage and you talk about the blues, but you don't know where that comes from and you don't know what it means. And just kind of the song came out of that.

Right. We're going to be speaking a little bit more about the origin of some country music and particularly the blues aspect of it. But you are a woman of colour in the country music scene in the UK. How do you find it? Do you find it equitable or do you hearing some of those issues that were coming out of Nashville? Does that give you pause? I mean, it's not going to be easy, but I'm here and I feel like I, you know, kind of going back to what we had Carly Pierce talk about, about, you know, song. And like, that means so much. And I think it's difficult, but it's so rewarding for, you know, to touch people in that way. We were also hearing a little earlier, Simeon, that female country singers in the United States can't really sing about politics.

But I'm thinking with that last song that maybe it's different in the UK. Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, I've definitely had, you know, a certain demographic walk out of festivals when they've heard me singing that song. Really? as me and country music is so autobiographical. So that's something that I really love about the genre. And I think that I can't not write about political things because, you know, just existing as I am, who I am in the world today is a political statement. So everything that I write is going to have some kind of politics around it. And your latest EP, Make It Romantic, is out now. Let me give your full name. Simeon Hammond Dallas. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Now, I want to get into the origins of country music. Maybe we've heard of Loretta Lynn, you've probably heard of Dolly Parton, and they've shaped its sound somewhat. But let's hear about some of the others as well. I'm joined by arts journalist Helen Brown, also professor Francesca Royster, who's author of Black Country Music, Listening for Revolutions. Here's a huge question, Helen, and welcome to Woman's Hour. What are the origins of country music? Yeah, it's a huge question and I think there'll be a lot of debate.

But essentially it grows up out of English and Irish and Scottish folk music. But basically, it grows out of every folk music that comes out of poor rural America, is the honest truth. And it's interesting that it's having this resurgence now that you've just been talking to Alex, because it kind of grows out, you know, really gains traction through the depression, through the dust bowl, through people moving, you know, leaving rural America. So right from the beginning, because it's a poor rural music where you've got families, you know, we've also talked about it being a communal music. We've got families with homemade instruments, all, you know, five or six kids all jammed together in one room, which means the girls were actually in from the off.

So as early as the 1920s, you've got the Carter family recording a song called Single Girl, Married Girl, which looks at the double standards between men and women. As this takes off through the 30s and 40s, and these people are now kind of selling some of their rural image, you know, the straw hats and the dungarees to city slickers. You end up with women like Cindy Walker, who was kind of the Mae West of country music. And she's got this really dry, laconic song called Don't Talk to Me About Men. And she's, you know, she really really you can just see her sort of reclining into her rocking chair complaining um and then by the 50s you've got women like jean shepherd and kitty wells who are really going for men they're answering all of these male attacks on how it's women who draw them into sin because bear in mind this is music that also comes from the church

so they're they're looking at women as like the, you know, holding up the apple of temptation to them. So you end up with guys like Hank Thompson, who's complaining about honky-tonk women, you know, luring men from the path. So you get Kitty Wells' answer to that in 1954, which is it wasn't God who made honky-tonk angels. And she's basically calling out the patriarchy in the mid 50s. But feeding into everything we've said, she was banned from the Grand Old Opry and loads of country music stations for that song. Wow. Is that enough early? I'm beginning to get the picture.

I want to bring in Professor Francesca Royster. Now, you have also been looking at origins, particularly the role of black artists in its creation, which we've just alluded to previously on the program. You know, the picture is much more diverse sometimes than the marketing of country would let us believe. And so, you know, African-American, Mexican and even Mexican-American music, Native Hawaiian music. These are all important influences in country music that sometimes get sidelined in those histories. And so, you know, even if we look at the signature instrument of the banjo, that's an instrument that has African origins. It was a music, you know, played by enslaved black people in the 18th and 19th century. is a kind of difficult precursor to country where we have kind of the marginalization of Black artistry and creativity, you know, where white artists are performing Black music and Blackface.

And then when country is marketed as a genre in the 1920s and 30s, there's this creation of a market called Hillbilly Music that sold and presented the idea of country music as having exclusively white roots and appealing to white audiences. And the other music was kind of lumped into race music, which included blues and included folk and other kinds of resources that if we really brought them together, we would have a much more complex picture. Also, part of the history of African-American influence in country is the ways that some of the sound was created by black creatives. For example, Leslie Riddle was a black guitarist who taught the Carter family, you know, a lot of their musical techniques.

And even thinking about like the blues sounds from the North Carolina Piedmont region of Etta Baker and Elizabeth Cotton, who are two African-American blues artists who kind of later got their acclaim much, much later in life. But they were very influential on the picking sounds, guitar and banjo, that influenced whole generations of bluegrass and country music artists. Elizabeth Cotton and Etta Baker, for those that are not familiar with that music. And it may be, Helen, that particularly because of people getting overlooked, Professor, that names like Dolly Parton or Loretta Lynn or other white women are thought of first in the country music genre. But how important was Dolly or Loretta?

Dolly Parton, the Iron Butterfly, she is the woman who ultimately kind of takes control of her own music. So whereas when Patsy Cline in the 50s is being paid 50% of what the men on her label are being paid, Dolly Parton comes along, writes, I will always love you. Elvis Presley, her great hero wants to sing it, but he wants 50% of the rights. And she said, I interviewed her and she told me it broke her heart not to give Elvis the song, but she wasn't going to give him 50 percent of the royalties. But I want to turn back to you, Francesca, because as we began researching country music, Linda Martel, her name came up again and again. Can you tell our listeners why she was important?

Yes, I love talking about the story of Linda Martel. And I think she's someone who's increasingly being kind of named as a really important country music influence in where we are now. But Martel made her first and only album, Color Me Country, in 1970. But her label ultimately divested from her, stopped supporting her for going on tour. She didn't cut another album. She ended up kind of leaving the country music industry and still playing, performing as a kind of, you know, more of an amateur musician. She's still alive. But other artists, especially Black women, country music artists of the current generation, have really worked hard to get us to talk about and listen to Linda Martell more and to really think about the ways that gatekeeping has really shaped the story of who gets to be in country music and how just how difficult it is. I just think some of our listeners might like to explore that

if they're not familiar already with her music. I'm going to go back to fashion, really. You know, I was just thinking of Dolly Parton there. And, you know, she used to talk about the clothes that she was attracted to even as a young girl. And it kind of became off, I suppose, kind of a Western style that then is associated with country music. So I don't

know whether it's fringing, whether it's the boots, whether it's the hat, whether at times it's a bit of rhinestones and glamour. What is it, Helen, that it's just so pervasive and also seems to continue and last so long over the decades, that same style? So initially, the country music stars coming into big cities were told to dress, you know, put the big hats on and the dungarees. But in the 1930s, you end up with a Russian Jewish tailor called Nudy Cohn, and he invented this thing, the nudy suit. So this is where all the rhinestone cowboy comes from.

He blinged up all of those suits to make people stand out in essentially what were very dark, small, smoky bars. And I think people like Dolly Parton talks about, you know, not having a TV. There's so many kids in a two-room shack in the Smoky Mountains. So she wasn't looking at TV. She said she was inspired by the town tramp.

And, you know, she enjoyed the attention her figure got and she just absolutely went for it. I mean, Dolly Parton is the poster girl for using everything you've got and doing it with a big old smile on your face. Well, thank you so much Helen Brown and also Professor

Francesca Royster. Really interesting to hear a little bit of the history of country music and some of the women that perhaps have been forgotten

and others, of course, that we immediately associate with country music. But, you know, it's not just all about the music. There are other forms

of art that country has influenced. Walk the Line, have you watched that? Country Strong, Nashville, so many films and TV series that country has influenced. Walk the Line, have you watched that? Country Strong, Nashville, so many films and TV series that have been influenced by the music. Why does it serve as this endless source of inspiration and also fascination? Well, I'm joined by Nicole Taylor, the award-winning screenwriter of the 2018 film Wild Rose, which is currently being adapted as

a stage musical, and the country music journalist Zoe Hodges. You're both so welcome to the programme. Let me begin with you, Nicole. How did you first fall in love with country music? I first fell in love with country music when I was a teenager. I was awake in the middle of the night and at that time BBC Two would put music content in the graveyard slot. So it was like three in the morning or something. And there was the CMA Awards 1993. And there was this woman who I later found out was Mary Chapin Carpenter singing a song called He Thinks He'll Keep Her backed up by all these amazing female country artists. And that song was like a three minute, four minute movie. It's like properly sophisticated account in four minutes of a woman's entire life and it just really

blew me away and I think it was so different to any of the music that was around me at the time all my friends were listening to Take That and E17 and then there was Blur and Oasis and everything but that song just utterly utterly spoke to me and from that moment on I just was completely crazy for country music. Let me turn to your movie. I just watched it the other night. Wild Rose. Even though it was made in 2018 forgive me for taking so long

but I loved it. Thank you. Starring Jessie Buckley. Let's give a brief synopsis of what it is. Your elevator pitch for your film. Okay, here we go. It's been a while

since I've described it but here we go. So Wild Rose is the story of Rosalind Harlan who is a girl from Glasgow who just wants to get out of there and make it to Nashville as a country singer. She's got an amazing voice. There seems no reason why she couldn't do it, except that she's got two young children. She's just got out of jail and she's got a mum who's been looking after them, who just thinks, right, forget it.

You're just your ship has sailed. You've got kids. Settle down. And the sort of central dramatic question is, once you're a mum, even if you're prodigiously talented like Rosalind is, does that mean you have to just get your head down and just adjust to normal life? Or does talent, you know, talent on that scale entail to you a free pass basically to pursue what it is you're good at? So I didn't have an answer to that question, which always makes for a good drama. So that was the dramatic core of Wild Rose. Because not only not content with writing the screenplay, you also took on the job of writing the music that was used within it, the songs, I should say, that was used within the film.

Some of the songs, yeah. Me and Jesse, a guy called Ian Brown and a couple of other writers and musicians, we used to just get round my house on a Friday afternoon and just try to generate songs that this fictional character, Rosalyn, might write. And it was just so much fun. And I wrote a brief for the songwriters, not thinking that I would be invited in. But I think it was sort of, I don't know, I think I was sort of yearning, unconsciously yearning to be asked

to join. So they invited me to join and it was just the most fun I've ever had in my life. But it's a lot more difficult writing a three minute song than it is writing a screenplay. I'll tell you that. Had you written songs before? Never, never. And I never sang in the room either. And there was a sense that got built up over many months that I had a really good voice. That was just hiding in plain sight.

I was just so shy. And then when I finally did sing, it was just, oh, no, no, you weren't joking. You really can't sing us whole. But it was incredible. It was such a wonderful thing to be part of. I want to bring in Zoe as well. Zoe Hodges, country music journalist. You are a big fan of all things country.

Why do you think it can be such an inspiring factor in various art forms for me country music is very much about real life stories and that's that's at the heart of the lyric writing it's we you know we've talked about um three chords and the truth um and it comes from a real um place of authenticity and that sort of story of these normal people having these big dreams and why can't they achieve them, why can't they chase them? And I think everybody has a dream, whether it be in music or another walk of life. But I think that chasing of dreams and that, you know,

sort of rags to riches storytelling is what connects with people. Now, I know you're a by Hayden Panettiere. And those two storylines were at the heart of it. And it first came on screen in 2012. So this is before, you know, what we've talked about, Tomato Gate. And it also, it referenced real life situations that were going on in country music at the same time. We talked about the chicks

and their controversy. There's a scene where one of the managers sort of talks through that controversy and to try and avoid the same thing happening to these characters.

Let me just turn back to you very briefly, Nicole. Did you find it difficult to have this wild woman who was breaking down barriers, trying to get ahead in what is traditionally a very conservative world? Everything I write, everything, not just Wild Rose, I get the same note back in the first instance, which is, can you make that female character more likable? So that's something that doesn't just afflict the world of country music. That's just on everything I ever write, honestly. So I can't say that's particular to Wild Rose,

but just speaking to what Zoe was saying about emotions, I think that's why it's popular in Ireland and Scotland, places where people are not very emotionally expressive. And country music, it's just, as Rosalind says in the film, it gives people an opportunity to get what's in there out. And that's what it's done for me all my life. And that I think that's what the big bang was when I first watched that Mary Tobin Carpenter song. I just thought, wow, I can feel more. And this music's helping me understand what I do feel and express what I feel. So ever since I've had a kind of country music synesthesia, where there's a song for every emotion and whatever I'm writing, whether it's about country or not, recently, I adapted One Day for Netflix. And while that soundtrack was all

80s and 90s, I wasn't listening to that stuff as I was writing, I was listening to country music to help me access the emotions that I need for writing the scenes. So that's what country does to me and has done all my life. Have watched, have loved. Nicole Taylor, screenwriter of the 2018 film Wild Rose, among many other things, as we're hearing, also writing songs. And Zoe Hodges, country music journalist. Thank you both so much. Also want to say a massive thank you to all my guests from this fantastic

hour dedicated to women in country music. To play us out, we couldn't have a whole programme about the topic without the Queen of Country, Dolly Parton. Helen, which Dolly track will help our listeners kickstart their day? Well, I mean, the classic Dolly Caffeination is 9 to 5,

the quintessential women's ambition song. But whenever I'm in a slump, I always hit up 2008's Better Get to Living. And it's like she's whipped on her corset. She's cracking a whip and I get off my sofa. Brilliant. Let's do it. Thank you so much to everyone listening to Women's Hour. Here is Dolly and have a lovely rest

off the Easter long weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, this is Kirsty Young. I just wanted to let you know that Young Again, my podcast for BBC Radio 4, is back. I'm telescoping two bits of the story together. That's okay. It's only memory.

There's only short bits. We can say what we like. In Young Again, we're joined by some of the world's most intriguing people. Bill was the CEO at Microsoft at the time. And I ask a simple question. If you knew then what you know now, what would you tell yourself? Be very, very careful about the people you surround yourself with. I gave too much power to people who didn't deserve it. Subscribe to Young Again on BBC Sounds. I'm looking forwardlevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.