Woman's Hour - Women in detention; Kayleigh Llewellyn; Regula Ysewijn; Corona diary – Angela Crawford

Episode Date: April 2, 2020

With the government announcement that low risk, pregnant women prisoners, and those in mother and baby units are to be released we hear from Dr Kate Paradine, Chief Executive of Women in Prison and Natasha Walter, Director of Women for Refugee Women. They discuss their concerns and reveal the fears of women in Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre, where a COVID 19 case has already been confirmed.Coronavirus has finally reached the Outer Hebrides. So for our second instalment of the Woman’s Hour Corona Diaries, Jenni speaks to Angela Crawford from the Isle of Lewis. How is this news affecting island life? What does social distancing look like in one of the more remote parts of the UK? And how do people feel about supplies and medical care away from the mainland? Kayleigh Llewyellyn is the writer and creator of a new BBC comedy drama series In My Skin. Based on her own story of her childhood years in Wales, it follows 16 year Bethan as she negotiates her school life, sexuality, and hiding her mother’s mental illness from her friends and teachers. She’s also one of the writers on the fourth series of Killing Eve. She joins Jenni to discuss.Regula Ysewijn’s new book ‘Oats in the North, Wheat from the South’ is a love letter in recipes to the history and heritage of British baking culture. Each of the recipes are accompanied by stories of landscape, legends and traditions of Great Britain. Regula joins Jenni to talk about how the diverse climate of the British Isles influenced the growth of cereal crops and the development of a rich regional baking identity.Presenter - Jenni Murray Producer – Sarah Crawley Guest - Dr Kate Paradine Guest - Natasha Walter Guest - Angela Crawford Guest - Kayleigh Llewyellyn Guest - Regula Ysewijn

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday the 2nd of April. Good morning. Now it wouldn't be Woman's Hour without a Cook the Perfect, but today it's virtual. No early lunch cooked in the studio for me. Regular Isawine is the author of Oats in the North, Wheat from the South, how the diverse climate of the British Isles influenced the growth of cereal crops and the rich regional traditions of baking. And what a shame she won't be here.

In My Skin is a new drama series which had its first outing on BBC One last night. Why did Kayleigh Llewellyn decide to write about her own teenage struggles as she tried to hide her mother's mental illness from her teachers and friends? And the second in our series of the Woman's Hour Corona Diaries, creating a unique archive of women's experience of isolation. Today, it's Angela Crawford on the Isle of Lewis. Now it's been confirmed this morning that three prisoners have died as a result of the coronavirus. They were all men and two were held in Cambridgeshire and one in Manchester. Governors in England and Wales were asking yesterday for low-risk prisoners to be released early.

In Northern Ireland, some are also to leave early and Scotland is considering similar plans. As far as women's prisons go, the government has already said that low-risk pregnant female inmates and those in mother and baby units are to be set free. What are the implications of these decisions? Well, I'm joined by Natasha Walter, Director of Women for Refugee Women, and Dr Kate Paradine, Chief Executive of Women in Prison. Kate, what was your response to the government's announcement that low-risk pregnant women and those in mother and baby units should be released?

We were really relieved because we've been campaigning since the start of this crisis for this to happen and for this to be the first step in a series of releases from prison. We've been working with birth companions and other charities on this. Prisons are already really overcrowded and in a desperate state and they struggle at the best of times to deal with the needs of their population, particularly pregnant women. And the risks of the spread of COVID-19 are a major issue. They're a problem not just in prisons, but a major public health issue for the NHS. Health departments in prisons would become really quickly overwhelmed by the needs,

and that need would then move on to national health services locally so this is a major public health issue and as you've said prison governors and others have argued that we need an early release plan to begin immediately as a matter of urgency in order to relieve the pressure on our prison. Now that the first releases are planned as I understand it for tomorrow. What sort of offences will these women have committed? Well we would expect these women to have the same offence profile as the vast majority of women in prison which is usually low level offending, often theft like shoplifting, often sentences for just a few weeks or months. And it will be the same for this group of women.

So we believe that many more women could easily be released from prison at this time to relieve the pressure on prisons and to protect public health. I know you're asking for a moratorium on short sentences. Why? Well, we need to stop the flow of people into prison as well as releasing those that are in there and we need to stop the short sentences that are still happening deferring sentences and stopping recalls to prison as well as dealing with the remand issue because whilst people keep going in and out of prison in the revolving door the risk of the spread of the virus continues to increase. Now, Natasha, you have published a press release saying there was a case of COVID-19 at Yarl's Wood

and that several of the refugee women have expressed concerns. It has to be said that the Home Office has sent us a statement saying that there are no cases of the virus in Yarlswood at the moment. But what sort of concerns have the women been expressing to you? Yeah, so it's interesting the Home Office is now saying there are no cases in Yarlswood Detention Centre because they did confirm that there was a case the Sunday before last to a newspaper and over that weekend we were getting calls from women who were held in Yarlswood Detention Centre and there was just such a high level of panic and anxiety in those calls. I mean you know Jenny we're in touch with women in Yarlsford Detention Centre, have been over the years, but there was a real level of panic that I haven't really heard before.

When they heard there was a suspected case, they were all being just told in a very sudden way to go to their rooms to start self-isolating. They weren't given any information immediately. And then the next day, there were these quite piecemeal procedures being put in place, like they were handed out a mask and gloves each and told to wear them if they moved around the centre. But without any real instructions about how to use them or how to protect themselves, I think, you know, it just left women in a great state of anxiety. And particularly, we were in touch with some women with underlying health conditions that would have made them more vulnerable. Who are the women that you're really concerned about? Well, I think, you know, we're concerned about the kind of women that go into immigration detention at the best of times.

You know, women are held in immigration detention when they're trying to resolve their immigration status. And the rationale that the Home Office always gives for locking women up in immigration detention is that the detention is there to facilitate removal or deportation. And even at the best of times, you know, that generally isn't the case, that most women go on to be released back into the community. Obviously, right now, women cannot be deported. You know, there's a global pandemic. Where are they going to fly them to?

So we just don't understand why women, you know, why the Home Office is continuing to detain women. And most of the women we're in touch with in the Yarlswood Detention Centre, not just now, but over the years, have already experienced extreme human rights abuses, gender based violence, sexual violence in conflict, trafficking, torture. And we're very, very concerned about these women, about their physical health, obviously, if there is an outbreak of coronavirus, but also their mental health, because being held in detention is really bad for them at the best of times. And these are some of the worst. Now that the Home Office tells us that all the immigration removal centres have dedicated health facilities run by doctors and nurses, which are managed by the NHS or appropriate providers. Handwashing facilities are available in all the centres. And they said they're working closely with suppliers to ensure adequate supply of soap and cleaning materials. So is the best not being done to protect them?

Well, we're hearing from women that they're still very anxious about not having proper access to soap and enough hand sanitizers. But, you know, even if these very basic precautions were in place, it's still, as Kate was saying, you know, crowding people together in centres like prisons and detention centres, it's just making people more vulnerable to the possibility of an outbreak. And we've, we and other organisations like Medical Justice and Detention Action have documented over the years the very poor healthcare services that do exist, unfortunately, in detention centres. Kate, how confident are you that the women and babies who may be released tomorrow will have somewhere safe to go? Well, we know that the prisons and probation staff are doing their best,

but planning for this should have happened weeks ago, and we really need to move at speed, and there's an awful lot to do in the next few days. Some women will return to their families, others will need additional support, and charities like Women's Centres, which we run and work with, are working at speed to provide virtual services, phone-based, intense support,

and to connect women into the services they need. But the government has to allocate resources so that no one is released homeless or into destitution, which does happen very frequently when people are released from prison in normal times. So a lot of work does need to be done, and this needs to include funding for the charities that are now stepping in to provide the support that's needed as the state buckles under the pressure that they're under at

the moment so my answer to that really is that we need a lot more action from government to make sure that people are released into the proper conditions now whilst you say these women are low risk and they are not dangerous criminals. They are still people who have committed crimes. How will their crimes continue to be punished under these circumstances? Well, this will be an issue for the probation service, and we understand there are plans for electronic tags and various conditions that will be in place,

but that will be a matter for the probation service and the prisons. Our focus in women's centres and with partners like Birth Companions will be ensuring that women are supported and able to give birth and care for their babies safely and address any issues that have brought them into the criminal justice system in the first place. And Natasha, equally, if the women from Yarl's Wood are released, how can track be kept of them? Well, remember that the women in immigration detention, as I say, are, you know,

wanting to resolve their immigration status. So there isn't the same issue in terms of keeping track of them. We are very concerned as well, just like Kate, that women are supported or really supported into safe accommodation, you know, so that they really have the means to be able to self-isolate and protect themselves and for communities to be able to stand together. I think, you know, there are actually very few women in Yarlswood right now, so it's not going to take a lot of

resources to ensure this happens. And it just needs some political will. And I really hope that, you know, as we move through this crisis, we'll only come through it, I feel, with our values intact, if we remember our solidarity with the most vulnerable in our community. How do you then expect them to be supported? What is available for them if they are released? Well, if women are in the asylum process, they are eligible for support and housing. And we would also go further and say that even those, you know, who may have been refused out should at the present time, everyone should be able to access safe accommodation and support. You know, people should, individuals should not be left homeless at the present time.

Well, at any time, at any time, Jenny, but particularly in the middle of a global pandemic. We really need to reach out to the most vulnerable. Kate, how hopeful are you that the government will listen to organisations like yours campaigning and campaigning for a long time for the welfare of prisoners? Well, hundreds of charities, health bodies and prison governors and staff have been raising this issue since the start of the crisis and appealing to government for a plan for a release and to reduce the prison population. We know that ministers want to do

the right thing, but I'm really sorry to say that the response has been far too slow and we need to make up time very, very quickly. And if they are listening to us, they will listen to the fact that we don't know how we will pay for the support that's needed now. And the release of pregnant women and mothers and babies is just a tiny step forward. And they really need to act at speed to address the issues in prisons. As I said earlier, not just for the benefit of prisoners and staff and to save their lives, but also for the whole community. Now, we've learned that Northern Ireland has lost 20% of its prison staff and is releasing 200 low-risk prisoners. Scotland is said to be set to follow. How likely is it that England and Wales will have to do the same, Kate?

We will have to do it. Our prisons have buckled already on critical staffing levels and getting worse. Prison governors have been calling for this for the last couple of weeks. This must happen, so the plan just needs to get started now. And we need to realise that this is for the benefit of all of us and it is the right thing to do it's the humane thing to do and if we act now it will not be too late but very soon it will be and a public health catastrophe will happen in our prisons and impact on all communities. Dr Kate Paradine and Natasha Walter, thank you both very much indeed for joining us this morning.

Now, as I said last week, Women's Hour is in the unique position of being able to gather the experiences of women across the country as the lockdown continues as a result of the coronavirus. We asked you to contact us to discuss what's going on in your area and the plan is to gather together a nationwide archive,

the Woman's Hour Corona Diaries. The virus has now reached the Outer Hebrides and Angela Crawford got in touch from the Isle of Lewis, one of the more remote parts of the UK. Angela, I know it was on Tuesday that the first cases were announced in your area. What was the response of your community? Oh, good morning. I think folk were quite shocked, but accepting of it because it was inevitable that it was going to happen sooner or later. It's now going up to three cases,

but all three of them are being cared for at home at the moment. What's known, then, about how the virus reached what is obviously an isolated community? Oh, well, we don't exactly know how it arrived, but there's such a history here of people working away working quite far away perhaps in Singapore or Hong Kong or just being out in the oil fields in the North Sea so people traveling back and forth it's Easter time students would have been coming home from all over Britain from university for the holiday so it was just, we knew it was coming

and we were very grateful for every day that we had, that we had no cases, because I think it gave our medical staff time to prepare more adequately and for perhaps retired medical personnel to be able to be brought back into the system. So we're as well prepared as we can be. How close are you to your neighbours? I mean, when you look out of your front window, what do you see?

Oh gosh, straight in front of our house is a loch in one direction, so about maybe a mile away there are some houses. In the other direction there's the Atlantic, looking very stormy today. And then we're at the end of a road. So perhaps every 50 metres or 100 metres, there's a house on its own strip of land, which is called a croft. So in some ways, people would say we're already very isolated. But there's a great community spirit around where we are. So social distancing and self-isolation is not really that much of a problem if you live so far apart.

Exactly not. But, I mean, you've got a 17-year-old daughter, you've got a husband I know who has lymphoma. How are you coping with your family having to be together, even though your neighbours are distant? Reasonably well. We have a very big shed, so my husband is gainfully employed out there, most of the time making furniture and other gadgets.

My daughter is far more technologically advanced than we are, so she's pretty much in touch with her friendship group through facetime or video calls they are very supportive of each other and really social media has come into its own right now i think because although we're quite isolated and used to being isolated we're very very community minded and perhaps in and out of each other's houses quite often, which is the most difficult thing, not just be able to just just touch base with folk and not just here but all over the world as well but when it comes down to real practicalities like medical care and getting supplies how are you going to manage that? Well, we have a local hospital. I think it's got about just over 100 beds. The medical care here is superb.

We're in a really fortunate position of being able to phone a doctor and have an appointment on the same day normally. Now it's mostly been done over the phone. But again, we don't feel cut off in that way. And again, we're used to very ill people being flown off the island by ambulance plane or by helicopter. Where would very ill people be flown to? They would either be flown to Inverness or Glasgow.

So it's quite a distance. So Glasgow's about an hour away and Inverness possibly about half an hour away. And what about supplies? I've got no idea how an island will cope if food and all of that stuff can't get to you. And they are employing queuing and only allowing so many in at a time. And they're reasonably well stocked up, apart from the inevitable lack of toilet paper or hand sanitiser or stuff like that. But we're managing so far, we're actually managing pretty well. We've got all our basics. We've got, if you don't mind going and queuing maybe for an hour,

you can get everything you need. And I think, like myself, a lot of people this year will be planting more vegetables. Have you started planting yours yet? I have, yes. My potatoes are now in, waiting for a break in the weather to go out and finish a new vegetable bed. But again, that's part of being outside and getting fresh air. And, you know, we've got thousands of acres outside our house

with no houses on it, just flat grassland. And so keeping fit doesn't have to be a problem. What grows well when you've got a storm and you're not that far from the Atlantic? Potatoes, carrots, turnip, kale. Probably the diet of round about the Second World War still does very well here. Barley. And there are sheep and there are cows.

So, you know, we're not self-ssufficient but I don't think most folk would starve You're getting there. Angela Crawford thank you so much for getting in touch with us and telling us about your life on the Isle of Lewis. Thank you Now still to come in today's programme Cook the Perfect

Virtually Regular Yes Swine is the author of Oats in the North, Wheat from the South, everything you need to know about the traditions of great British baking. And, of course, the serial Ian McKellen continues his reading of Wordsworth's The Prelude. In My Skin is described as a comedy-drama series which was made for BBC Three, is on the iPlayer, and you may have seen the first episode on BBC One at 10.45 last night. It tells the story of a 16-year-old girl, Bethann, as she negotiates her life at school, her friendships, her sexuality, her pretty deadbeat dad, and tries to keep her mother's mental health illness from her friends and her teachers. Here, she rushes to see her mother, who's in a secure hospital and has been sectioned.

Have you been all right today? No, not really, Beth. Sectioned now. That's it? Yeah. Locked ward. Yeah. What have you done to me? I'm sorry, Mum.

I got you some puff. Pessy. Stupid bitch! See what you've done? Huh? You delivered me in the eye of the storm, Ian. There's cameras everywhere. Trina, played by Jo Hartley and Gabrielle Creevey as Bethan.

The series was written by Kayleigh Llewellyn and draws on her own teenage in Cardiff. Kayleigh, how autobiographical is this series? Pretty heavily so. What do you mean by pretty heavily so? It's very close to my own experiences, yeah. You know, you get your moments of invention when you start to draw new characters.

I sort of base them all on real people that I know, but as time goes on and you write draft after draft of the scripts, they start to become their own entities to a degree. But, yeah, pretty much everything in there really happened. Now, Bethan often has to leave school to tend to her mother. I mean, the opening is where we see her mother in the street shouting and screaming and Bethan trying to control her. And yet Bethan really goes to great lengths

to try and keep her mother's illness from her friends. Why? I was so worried when I was growing up that if any of my friends knew what we were dealing with in my household, not only my mum's mental health issues but my father's addiction problems, that they would shun me, make fun of me, or even worse, make fun of my family. So I felt like I had to hide it. And I simply didn't know that there would be plenty of other children in my school whose lives have been

touched by mental health, which I suppose is partly because it's, as a society, something we just don't talk about enough. And it's only now as a grown up that I've sort of found the courage to talk about it, that I've realised how many other people have gone through it. Now, the mental illness in the series, and I know what your mother suffered from, is bipolar. How ill was your mother? Very. And she still is, actually. actually um I think she had her first mental breakdown when I was a baby um and then was sort of went through a period of about 10 or 12 years where she was coping um and then it sort of descended from there she had a particularly bad cycle in 2018 of sort of being sectioned six times in one year.

So were you, as a schoolgirl, constantly having to run away from school to look after your mother? Not constantly, no, because these moments of hypermania and, you know, a full-scale breakdown that would see someone sectioned, you know, maybe my mum would go into hospital for six weeks and then she'd come out and perhaps not be completely back to normal, but functioning and she could go back to work and be the fantastic mother to me that she always was. You know, she's, even though we, we didn't have much money and my dad was a difficult man, she always worked so hard to make sure my sister and I could have have the things that we wanted and be able to do things like other normal kids

so you know then we might have a sort of a year stretch or a 10-month stretch where she was okay and then it would all ramp up again. The father in the drama is extremely feckless. How true to life is he? Very, yeah. My own father has passed away now. He died in 2015, but yeah, he's very close to my own dad. How easy has it been, Kayleigh, to make a comedy about mental illness and alcoholism, which touched you so closely? It's been very easy, which potentially sounds strange to say, but I love the kind of writing and TV that brings you comedy and drama side by side, that has them holding hands, because I think that is life. And for people like myself who've grown up in those difficult environments, I think it comes very naturally.

That saying, like, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. So, you know, you choose to laugh. And I particularly remember growing up, you know, sort of thinking if things were coming to a head with my parents or you know I could feel a big argument brewing thinking if I can be really funny and really winning and and get their attention I can stop this from happening so I think it's a skill that I've been honing um for for a very long time and also for anyone who's spent any amount of time in a mental hospital it is this crazy mesh of emotions because probably you're there because someone you love very much is going through the worst part of their life. But also funny things are happening. So you do oscillate between crying and going, good God, what has become of us?

Why are we here? So, you know, I really wanted to capture that that the messiness of it all that there is a terrible moment where and I I watched it and I was so shocked where the mother in the drama says I had a baby girl who died she was prettier than you I really hope you made that up I hope it didn't happen oh no that that did happen yeah it is so shocking now the grandmother she's a whole different ball game uh she's a really strong support for you in the drama and she has an extraordinary turn of phrase which we probably won't repeat at um half past 10 in the morning better late at night. How did your real grandmother support you?

My real grandmother was the most incredible rock. She only passed away a couple of years ago, but I think she would be so blown away by this show and how well it's doing. I think it would mean the world to her. And she was just sort of calm in the storm she she offered her her house was this haven that I could go to when things got bad and uh she was always just so proud of me it always used to really make me laugh she kind of didn't understand my job as a writer she she thought she used to tell people that um Kayleigh tells stories

because writing tv didn't fully make sense to her but she just knew that she was proud of me even though she didn't know what the job was um and yeah she would she would sort of turn up at the house and bring carrier bags of food and clean up and just make everything it you know it's like you could as for me I could um relax when she entered the house and think oh finally a grown-up is here now Bethan is exploring her sexuality in the drama and she has a crush on a girl called Poppy how difficult was it for you to go through that period when you were a teenager trying to work out who and what you were um i think it's almost a sort of welcome distraction actually when you've got all that going on at home i kind

of wanted to capture that that thing that maybe is slightly unique to teenagers that something really terrible could happen at home but if the popular girl wants to sit with you then actually you're quite chuffed you've had a good day um and and the other thing I'm trying to capture in the show that was true for me and I think it's true for a lot of lesbians that the dawn in realization that I was a lesbian because teenage girls have such intense friendships with one another anyway that you know it it is almost like a platonic romance you speak to each other as soon as you wake up you're talking on the phone before you fall asleep if you fall out it's all consuming and you can't eat you're so worried so I was going through that thinking yeah I'm just like the other girls we're just really good friends aren't we and and then sort of that grows me like I just

really like it when she touches me I just really like it when she asks me to sleep over. And this dawning realisation of going, oh, maybe I fancy her. We're not just friends. Your PE teacher, I have to mention her because she is extraordinary, domineering, rude. Is she real? She's based on an amalgamation of, I sort of had three different female, very Welsh PE teachers in high school,

and she's an amalgamation of them all. But the actress, Laura Checkley, who plays Mrs. Blocker, she's just the most phenomenal character actress. So in her hands, it's just delectable. I must ask you, what was your mother's reaction to the story being made for television? It's a very bizarre situation, really. My mum, I started writing the script in 2017, it was. And at that point, my mum hadn't been sectioned for 10 years so she was still very much struggling with bipolar but she wasn't back in you know mental health care in that way so I thought now's the time to tell the story and then the pilot was um green lit by BBC3 and five days later

she had a breakdown and was sectioned again um And she wound up being sectioned in the hospital that we were filming at, at the same time, which was just bizarre. So because of that, she wasn't able to watch it for a little bit of time. I think it had been out for about a month before she could see it. And I was in London waiting with bated breath for her feedback. And then she just called me and said, I love it. I'm so proud of you. Kayleigh Llewellyn, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. I'm glad your mum's proud of you. And I hope people will go to see the rest of the series on BBC One now or indeed on the iPlayer. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Now, day by day, I hate the corona lockdown more and more.

For today's programme, we had invited regular Yeswine into the studio for Cook the Perfect. Her book is called Oats in the North, Wheat from the South, the History of British Baking, Savory and Sweet. And she had promised to bring in a series of treats for Easter, gingerbread, clap cake and hot cross buns. But of course, she's not here. And neither are the no doubt delicious examples of her baking. She does, though, join us from her home in Antwerp in Belgium.

Regina, why did a Belgian woman become fascinated by British baking? Well, that's a long story, but I'll try to keep it short. But when I was a child, I loved this skipping rope rhyme and it was saying, white swans, black swans, who's coming to England with us? But England is closed. The key is is broken is there a blacksmith in town who can mend this key for us and I was absolutely besotted by the song and I started fantasizing about England my parents watched a lot of BBC so I saw a lot of beautiful documentaries about heritage on on television so I always wanted to go to England while other people wanted to go, other kids wanted to go to Disneyland. So after years of nagging, like I wanted to go to England, my parents finally gave in and we started traveling around Britain every holiday that we had. And we did it just fed my passion

for Britain and also for baking because I always sought out bakeries in every little village or town that we went to and pushed my nose against the window of those tiny bakeries to see what kind of bakes they had and how different they were everywhere. Now, I mentioned that you had intended to bring us some clap cake. I am British and had never heard of clap cake. What is it? I think clap cake is a very intriguing bake. It comes from Cumbria in the north of England.

And that's a little bit what the story of the book is. Oats in the north. Oats grow best, well, oats are the only crop that grows very well together with barley in the north because the the landscape the the climate is much more cold more rougher more wet very short summers so it makes sense that people would bake with oats because wheat didn't grow there and clap cake is one of those bakes it is what we would recognize as Scandinavian crispbread very thin oat cake which is baked on high temperature and then it was dried out in front

of the fireplace on purposely built racks called havercake maidens it's an unbelievably lovely bake to eat and people would bake them in large quantities, dry them out and eat them with cheese or with jam like they would eat bread because they wouldn't have baked bread as oats just make a very dense bread. Oh, it would have been lovely to have tried it regularly. I know. I know you've begun a hashtag on Instagram called hashtag Bake Corona. Why have you done that? About three weeks ago, we had our first day of the lockdown here in Belgium. And I felt a bit strange and lost and not sure what to do with myself.

And I was thinking maybe I should bake something. And then I felt I don't really feel like baking because it was quite of a shocking situation we've suddenly found ourselves in and then I thought that maybe other people feel like this as well why don't I try and get people together with a hashtag and we can all bake together while we have to social distance ourselves from each other. And I just posted it on my social media accounts and never thought it would, you know, take off. But of course, I'm a judge on the Belgian version of Bake Off. So I've got a lot of fans who are very much into baking.

And after two hours, I checked my phone and there were already so many bakes tagged with the hashtag and it started to have a life on its own and it went worldwide which is fantastic to see how people are connecting through baking and and and there's a little community now now gingerbread was one of the things you were going to bring with you what's the basic recipe you use for gingerbread well I don't think there is a basic recipe because if you look in the cookbooks of history you will see that there's always been different types of of gingerbreads and in my book I already have five different recipes for gingerbread and the one I was going to bring in today was one that had special meaning to me.

It was called Aunt Betty's gingerbread in the book. And the recipe was actually given to me by someone I met on the Eurostar who came up to me. And she said, I really love your first book, Pride and Pudding. And I would love to gift you my family recipe for gingerbread. Because, of course, I'm Belgian and I don't have any British family recipes. So I'm incredibly grateful if people gift me their recipe. And she also allowed me to put it in my book, which is extra special. So what are the ingredients? The ingredients are plain flour, baking soda, ginger of course,

cinnamon, a bit of salt, equal quantities of butter, sugar and treacle, golden syrup, milk and eggs and that creates a very dense, very moorish gingerbread cake that becomes better day after day. You're making me so hungry. I so wish you had been here. We will of course put the recipe on the Woman's Hour website and we'll download the Perfect Podcast through BBC Sounds so people can pick this up later. The other thing you were going to bring Easter, the hot cross bun. How did the hot cross bun develop? Well, the tradition of baking bread with a cross pressed into it or placed on top can be linked to paganism as well as Christianity.

It's as old as baking is. The cross symbolises the rebirth of the world after winter, which makes sense around this time of the year. It's also a symbol of the wheel of the year. And pagan Saxons, they used to bake bread like this in honor of the goddess Oistre, which according to the venerable beads back in the 8th century is the origin of the name Easter.

So that makes a lot of sense. So do you make hot cross buns in Belgium or is that a really British thing to do? Hot cross buns are a very, very British thing to do. And it's even, it's so old that the first mention of it dates back to the 17th century, where in an almanac, there's this little sentence, if I can read it to you. Good Friday comes this month. The old woman runs with one or two penny hot cross buns. And that's in the 17th century.

So it is very old and very, very British. And they even try to ban it they tried to ban it they tried to ban it during uh the reign of elizabeth the first in the 16th century the london clerk of markets actually issued a decision prohibiting sale of any sweet spiced cakes except at funerals, Christmas or Good Friday, which is how the hot cross bun got linked to Good Friday. Because on other days of the year, it was prohibited to make these types of cakes. And then when Cromwell came along, he thought all these spiced cakes were way too luxurious and he tried to ban those as well oh he tried to ban everything regular thank you so much for joining us this morning i hope you will be baking your gingerbread and your hot cross buns and your clap cake for your easter and

i just wish you could have been here but thank you very much indeed for talking to us this morning regular Easter wine and I must repeat that the Woman's Hour website will have the recipe for the gingerbread and then on next Tuesday's programme you can hear from Mary Berry

she'll be talking about managing food in the corona lockdown and how much it's like being back in the 1950s and she'll be talking about managing food in the corona lockdown and how much it's like being back in the 1950s. And she'll be talking about how to cook and shop smart. On women in detention, Mary sent an email in which she said, it's so important that these women and men in prisons and detention centres are safely released, along with safeguarding the people that work in the prisons. I dread to think what will happen

when it reaches the refugee camps worldwide. This is a time to totally rethink the way the world works. And someone who didn't want us to use a name said, I shouldn't be reading this really, but I will. I've woken up with coronavirus. I can't get up, but I can turn on Radio 4. I just want to say that Jenny Murray's voice is so soothing and brilliantly interesting as ever. Thank you, Woman's Hour. And thank you, and we don't know your name, but thank you for the compliment. Now, tomorrow, the really essential discussion, which will be done by Jane,

on asking professionals for tips on everything from trimming your fringe to home hair dye. Send us any questions you have on Twitter or through the website, and what I want to know already is how to disguise my roots. I've tried to buy something online that I was recommended. I could just spray on my roots.

Can I get any? No, there isn't any left. So we'll see what the professionals have to offer tomorrow. From me for today, join Jane tomorrow. Bye-bye. Hi, I'm Catherine Bell-H. Hi, I'm Catherine Bowhart. And I'm Sarah Keyworth. We're comedians separately and a couple together,

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