Woman's Hour - Women In Film, Female MP's joining the Independent Group, Mariam Khan

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

Of the twelve MPs who resigned so far this week from the Labour and Conservative parties, seven of them are women. Jane speaks to Sarah Childs, Professor of Politics and Gender at Birkbeck University about the significance of their resignations.The first survey of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in young people in the UK suggests girls are twice as likely to develop PTSD following a traumatic experience, with 1 in 13 young people across the UK having had post-traumatic stress disorder before reaching the age of 18. Andrea Danese, Professor of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry at Kings College London explains the implications of the survey and Flo Sharman who experienced PTSD and is an ambassador for mental health charity MQ. The 2019 Oscars are on Sunday - and this year the hashtag #OscarsSoMale has been trending. That’s because not one woman has been nominated in the Best Director, Original Score, Film Editing and Best Picture categories. Only 25% of non-acting Oscar nominations this year went to women. Radio 4 film podcast presenter and playwright Melody Bridges shines a light on some of her favourite women in film with three of her favourite films directed by women who she believes were snubbed an Oscar win for Best Director.How much do you know about herpes? 7 out of 10 people over the age of 25 carry a type of the virus, but it’s still a source of embarrassment and frequently misunderstood. We speak to three women who have genital herpes about the impact it’s had on their lives, and the reality behind the mythsIt’s Not About the Burqa” features seventeen essays from Muslim women speaking frankly on topics as wide ranging as the hijab and wavering faith, love and divorce, feminism, queer identity, sex, and the twin threats of a disapproving community and a racist country. The writer and activist Mariam Khan talks to Jane about why she wanted to put the anthology together, with writer and poet Salma El-Wardany on her essay A Gender Denied; Islam, sex and the struggle to get some.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Caroline DonneInterviewed Guest: Professor Sarah Childs Interviewed Guest: Professor Andrea Danese Interviewed Guest: Melody Bridges Interviewed Guest: Mariam Khan Interviewed Guest: Salma El-Wardany Interviewed Guest; Flo Sharman

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday, the 22nd of February 2019. On the podcast today, you can hear from two women who've contributed essays to a new collection of essays called It's Not About the Burqa. And that's young Muslim women telling us about their lives and about how society views them, and why maybe actually we should reconsider the way we think about Muslim women. And also on the podcast today, post-traumatic stress disorder. Is it really true that one in 13 British teenagers has it? And what kind of help is available?

And we'll also bust some myths on herpes. There is a sort of stigma about herpes, but it's a bit idiotic because almost all of us over the age of 25 carry the virus. So why is there any sort of taboo about having herpes? That's on the podcast today. First of all, we heard this morning, just about as the show went on air, actually, that another MP, Ian Austin, the Labour MP for Dudley North, has said he is leaving his party. That makes a total of 12 MPs who have resigned from their political parties this week. The majority of those who quit have been women. Sarah Wollaston, Anna Soubry and Heidi Allen left the Conservatives.

Luciana Berger, Angela Smith, Anne Coffey and Joan Ryan left the Labour Party this week. I asked Sarah Childs, Professor of Politics and Gender at Birkbeck University in London, whether this gender divide, the dominance of women who've left, was in any way significant. Well, I think it's worth just starting by restating the percentage of women in the House of Commons, which is about 32%, 43% of the Labour Party, 21% of the Conservative Party. So when we look at that grouping, it is over representative women relative to their presence in the House, but we've got to be careful. Small numbers, so it looks like a big difference. So it's worth investigating, but I don't think we'd want to go down the road of suggesting,

at least at this stage, that this is women acting collectively on a kind of gendered agenda. This is about the politics of Brexit and anti-Semitism and perhaps, and I think this might have a gendered lens, about the kinds of criticisms they have about their parties and whether they're moving to the extremes and whether the extremes of both parties have a gender analysis to them. OK, well, let's just hear a bit more about that, about those specific criticisms they've had.

Well, I think the first thing to say about the Conservative Three is that two of those particularly are people who came into politics at a time when the Conservative Party was absolutely trying to diversify, changing the face of the Conservative Party. So you are, if you're reaching out to people who've not had long standing party memberships, to different kinds of people who may feel differently about the party. And therefore, if you look at your party that you've joined, and it's not quite the party, that modernising Cameron party that you thought it was, then in the context of Brexit, that will make you feel differently about your party.

And that might be the influence of the European Research Group. Absolutely. This conception that there's a group who are taking over or influencing to a greater extent and that they are not of that modernising meaning. So it's not just Brexit, it's also about the other kinds of attitudes they might have. So it's the old thing we've heard a few times this week, it's not me leaving the party, the party's left me. I think that's absolutely what they're saying, yes. And what about those Labour MPs then? Again, I think what we've got are some very specific concerns around anti-semitism and around the leadership and around foreign policy

and all of those kind of things. So one of the MPs, Anne Coffey, has been described as a sort of the, perhaps an indicator or a symbol of the ordinary Labour woman MP, if that isn't too, I don't mean that in a derogatory sense at all, but not necessarily as specific criticisms as the others, but just feeling that the party doesn't quite reflect them. I mean, there are concerns about Labour and nostalgia and 1970s masculinity and whether the current party has sort of moved away from some of the sort of ideas around gender equality that would have represented the new Labour years and after. That has been a feeling. I think the that momentum is a somewhat testosterone-driven collection of people.

Yes, and I think the form of politics at the moment is also really important to understanding what's going on. So there are the kind of ideologies and then there's the individual criticism, but there's also criticism about tone and just how nasty politics has become in the context of Brexit. Yeah, nasty, I think, is a good adjective on both sides of this to get that BBC balance in there. But I mean, actually, it couldn't be more true. There is nastiness on both sides of this debate. But what has been great this week, and there's no denying that, there have been some rather powerful, positive images of women walking, linking arms, walking down the street, looking relieved of a burden, frankly, in a couple of cases.

I mean, I think we have to link that to sort of the broader patterns of the social media violence and the violence against women and threats that they experience collectively across the parties, plus their own party specific hostility that they've had to engage with. And you're absolutely right, pictures of women relishing a new start, and really enjoying that collaboration, I think, is really a positive image in quite difficult times. One commentator, I think Matthew Paris in the Times, I think, is really a positive image in quite difficult times. One commentator, I think Matthew Paris in The Times, I think yesterday, said that he felt there was a possibility that women were less keen on being in the gang. Do you think there's any evidence of that?

Well, I think I'd start by saying is the politics as a gang has often been quite exclusionary of women. So it's been hard to get into the gang in the first place. I think women's parliamentary friendships are quite often important within parties. Let's not be too, let's not reduce women to lovely caring and sharing types. I mean you know there has been hostility between women across the benches you know over the decades but I think women's parliamentary friendships are important and I think that sense of the party not always including them, perhaps might make it easier for them to think, actually, is this where I belong? Thank you very much indeed. Thanks for talking to us. Sarah Childs, who is a professor of politics and gender at Birkbeck University.

Good to see you, Sarah. Now, seven out of 10 of those of us over 25 carry the herpes virus. Now, it can cause cold sores. It can also cause genital sores, blisters and itching. And there are still quite a lot of myths and taboos around the subject of herpes, in spite of the fact that it is so common. I've been talking to three women with genital herpes. Jess is in her 20s and she was diagnosed last year. A woman we're calling Sylvia is in her 60s and was diagnosed when she was in her 50s. And you'll also hear from Marion, who's the director of the Herpes Virus Association. Marion's in her 60s. She got the diagnosis when she was in her 30s. So here's Marion on how she found out she had the virus.

I was a classic case. So I had flu-like symptoms that lasted a couple of days. And then in the genital region, up came these exceedingly painful spots. Can you describe the pain? Oh, just much soarer than a spot in that region should be. So really sharp, peeing hurt like the places because of the open wound with the pee going over it. But the first outbreak is always much the worst. So any repeat outbreaks are rarely going to have flu-like symptoms and won't necessarily hurt at all, because they're often, particularly for ladies, so far away from the urethra that the pea doesn't

actually get involved. Where had you got it from? Do you know? Oh, from the partner. I'd been with him quite a while. After I'd been diagnosed, we were able to were able to retro diagnose the fact that he used to get a little cut on the side of his penis from time to time which he just thought was something to do with either friction or maybe it was that soap but it was so slight that we hadn't stopped to actually think about it. I wouldn't have known that that was a symptom of herpes. Exactly. And he didn't know either. Exactly. He did not know. Only one in three gets clear symptoms. Two out of three have either no symptoms at all or these little symptoms which they totally allocate to a different cause.

So they think it's an infected hair follicle. That's quite common. An itchy patch, sore patch, pimple that vanished when I squeezed it, you know, just minor symptoms. But we should be clear about this. If you get a cold sore, you have the same thing. You have herpes. That's quite right. And cold sores are something that once you've got, you keep on having every year, every winter. What is it? The whole range of herpes viruses are things that you can keep getting back. The frequency is totally up to you. There is a genetic component. So if your parents got a lot of cold sores, you are more likely to get repeat outbreaks. But remember, only two out of

three people just don't recognise that they've ever caught it. Theirs are so mild. Sylvia, just tell us when you were diagnosed with herpes. About five, six years ago, and very, very similar to Marion. I had a partner that most probably was infected some years back, but because it can remain dormant for such a long time, then I have no way of knowing if that was the source of my original infection, but it seems likely. And I went to to local sexual health clinic you didn't go to your GP no I didn't go to my GP I was extremely embarrassed I see okay um and I

went to the sexual health clinic and they took blood tests and they confirmed that I had herpes type 1 and type 2 so type 1 is obviously the facial cold sores, which I've never had. I've never had an outbreak of cold sores on my face, ever. And then after, they told me to expect a major outbreak, which would be flu-like symptoms and a larger number of lesions, which did happen a few weeks later and I went back to them and was given acyclovir as a prophylactic dose which I still take. Now the flu-like symptoms you described was it so bad that you had to take to your bed? Not that bad. But it was debilitating?

It was debilitating yes it was it's like a very heavy cold and you feel pretty miserable and really don't want to go out of the house. And Marion, Sylvia mentioned the two types. You'd better just define the two types of herpes. There are two types of herpes simplex and traditionally they do say that type 1 is the cause of cold sores and type 2 is the cause of genital herpes. But nowadays they find that over half of new cases of genital herpes

are caused by type 1 because of oral sex. So people with facial cold sores are putting them on their partner's genitals. Jess, can you tell us, I don't think it's unfair to describe you as our youngest contributor, so can you tell us when you first realised that you had herpes? It was back in September last year following a known exposure to a partner which was probably about 10 weeks prior to that so that's quite a long incubation time typically until the first outbreak. It was very much the same as Marion and Sylvia's

so there were obvious lesions, swollen lymph nodes was the most obvious for me, flu-like symptoms and yeah it took a good two weeks for my sores to disappear which you know were in the whole vulva area. Sylvia said she couldn't visit the GP about her symptoms, what did you do? As the outbreak was happening I knew straight away what it was because I'd been googling it a lot um since I've been exposed so the symptoms I got I knew what it was instantly so it was a case of I need to go to the sexual health clinic and get that diagnosis and see what help can get from there some people listening might be a bit wary about doing exactly that um just just tell us about what it's like to visit a sexual health clinic.

Well, in my particular area, the sexual health services are really good. I got an appointment the same day. I knew I had to get a swab because I wanted to find out what strain I had. And it was all matter of fact. These people do this every day, don't they? Very. And the nurse actually said to me, she said, you know i'm pretty positive this is going to come back as a positive result but you know you feel like the

only person right now that has it and believe me you won't believe how common this is did you think for yourself there was any kind of stigma about this oh did? Yeah. And the person I contracted it off of was very affected by the stigma, I'd say. I think they were very much afraid of just being vulnerable or being judged. But I knew about herpes beforehand. I'm quite well educated on the subject anyway. So I think it's what you make of it, really. It's your personal perspective. What do you think about that, Marion? Why is there still, people do sort of lob it into conversation in a mildly kind of accusatory way, don't they? Yeah, so they make jokes about it. I think one of the problems is the stigma means that when

someone makes a joke about it, no one with genital herpes is brave enough to say, let's not make jokes about catching an STI. Anyone could catch an STI. In this room, if people are over 25, seven out of ten of them are carrying the virus. Most don't know. So people making the joke could well have it themselves, but they just don't know they have it.

By pure fluke, they aren't manifesting any symptoms. And it really is fluke, isn't it? There's no other explanation. Genetic. Really, they've done the research. It is a genetic tendency to have symptoms or a genetic tendency not to have symptoms. Sylvia, when you got your diagnosis, did you feel any stigma?

Yes, I did at the time. I didn't really know very much about it and I was horrified. And I did some research and I contacted the Herpes Virus Association when Marion very kindly sent me lots of literature about it. And I read a lot around the subject and realised that this is a skin complaint. And it's no more than a skin complaint. And yes, like Marion, I do get extremely upset about people making jokes

because it's not a joking matter. But neither is it for the vast majority of us very serious. And I'm glad you said that, Sylvia, because I know you are a carer now for a partner with a neurological condition. And what has he said to you about your herpes diagnosis? When we met up, I was very upfront and told him straight away that I had this problem and he said, if we can cope with my very major problem,

then yours is a tiny problem in comparison and I'm sure we can cope with that. Do you think you'd have got that reaction from everybody? Did you get other reactions? I had dated one or two people before that who ran a mile to be honest even though i explained at some length that i was highly unlikely to be able to pass this on when i had no external symptoms but unfortunately there is a great deal of ignorance about about the disorder and i found it very hard to convince people that that was

actually the case. Well Jess, your generation, is it your experience that they are better informed? I would say so yeah. I don't know if that's got something to do with the age of the internet. Things are a lot more accessible especially if we want to educate ourselves, you know, type in the symptoms, things come up. I always knew about herpes I didn't realize there were two different strains and until really that when I got it but yeah I've told quite a lot of people about this close family close friends and the majority of them have all said yeah I get cold sores so what as for As for general terapies, I think it's becoming more known. No one talks about it, but I think people are starting to understand better about how it is contracted, what it is.

What does this mean for themselves and their sexual partners? Do you think people are more open, more informed and less judgmental than they used to be, Marion? Oh, definitely. Yes, we're beginning to see that happen. There are many more articles on the internet talking about how ridiculous the stigma is. Why have a stigma about a cold sore when it's on the genitals and not have a stigma when it's a cold sore on the face? It's daft. Are there any potential implications?

I'm thinking of women of Jess's age. There's no impact on fertility, is there? So we don't need to worry about that. What are the other myths associated with it? People do worry about giving birth. But as long as you caught it before you became pregnant, there is no issue whatsoever. The new guidelines from the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology say, even if you have an outbreak at term, you can have a natural childbirth. People worry about passing it around their body. This again is something that might happen during a first outbreak. It doesn't happen once the first outbreak is over. Think about it. If it could happen, every kiddie with a cold sore would self-infect their fingers, their feet, their knees and anywhere they can reach. And it doesn't happen.

We don't see that happening, no. But if you do contract it in your third trimester, then there is a chance that you would have to have a caesarean. Definitely. If you've caught it just before giving birth, then there's no time for the baby to develop all the antibodies that would protect a normal baby. And therefore, definitely, women who catch it just before giving birth will need to have a caesarean section. And when babies do catch it, they give babies a cyclovir drip

and the baby recovers well. And Sylvia, you had that one unpleasant outbreak. Anything else since? Since taking the prophylactic dose, I have no further outbreaks. My GP suggested that I'd been taking it for a couple of years and I could probably stop. And I stopped and I had a couple of minor lesions. So I went back onto it again and I don't intend to stop taking it.

But it's only a minor inconvenience, an extra pill to take in the morning. And it keeps it at bay completely. And it's entirely safe for you to carry on taking that for the rest of your life? As far as I'm aware, yes. Marion's nodding. So, yeah, it's all right. People take it for the rest of their lives. You don as I'm aware, yes. Marion's nodding, so, yeah, it's all right. People take it for the rest of their lives. You don't need to, though, of course. No, it's just an option,

and that's the one that Sylvia's gone for. We should say that all three of you are carrying on your lives completely. I mean, life just goes on, doesn't it? Absolutely. It is, after all, only a cold sore in a different place. Interesting stuff from Marion, and you also heard from a woman we called Sylvia and from Jess

as well. Now if you're worried about herpes or you'd like a bit more information there are links now on the Woman's Hour website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Now to the incredible statistic I think it's incredible it's in the headlines in many of the newspapers today. One in 13 British teenagers have had or have PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, and we're told that girls are twice as likely to develop it after a traumatic experience. This is all from research by King's College London, which looked at 2,000 under-18s born between 1994 and 1995,

and the Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at King's College, we'll get this right, Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at King's College is Andrea Dinesi, who is one of the researchers. Welcome, Andrea. Thank you. And also with us, we have Flo Scharman, who is 20 years old. Flo, good morning to you. Good morning. How are you today? I'm very well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on your show today.

Well, it's a great pleasure. And we'll hear about your experience in a moment or two. First of all, Andrea, because that statistic is really shocking to me, we should start by pointing out that many people go through all sorts of trauma in their lives and not everybody who does will have PTSD. That's correct. Most people who are exposed to trauma, be it young people and adults, do not develop PTSD. So they will develop, most people will develop some emotional symptoms that are transient and will disappear in a matter of days or perhaps weeks. What is important is that young people and their families do think about contacting their GP

if the symptoms are particularly severe, distressing and impairing, or if they last for a longer time. So for example, for more than one month. I see. Now you looked at 2000 teenagers, young people, what sort of questions were these young people asked? We assessed a range of different types of traumas. And so by trauma, we have adopted the definition that the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization have used, that is, events that involve danger of death, physical injury, and sexual assault. So as we asked about different types of traumas, we collected information on direct interpersonal traumas, for example, things like abuse from an adult, bullying from peers, as well as other types of traumas, such as

road traffic accidents, or also knowing about, getting to know about, for example, the death or an incident in someone they knew, but that they haven't witnessed or directly experienced. Okay, we don't have very much time, And I really hate to rush through what is an incredibly complicated area. But we've established that most people who experience trauma do not go on to suffer from PTSD. But you believe or you've discovered that it is twice as likely that girls will go on to suffer from PTSD than boys. Why do you think that is? This is very much a research question. So it's important to make these reports to really highlight the extent of the problem. What we know is that the girls are more likely, for example, to experience those types of traumas that are more strongly associated with

PTSD and other types of psychopathology. So those direct interpersonal traumas such as abuse and bullying. And is it not also a factor that girls might be more likely to report symptoms than boys? It is possible. So it is possible and it has been reported in many ways that girls tend to report when distressed more emotional symptoms of depression or anxiety whereas boys might act out in their distress and for example develop conduct problems. Flo just tell us very briefly if you can what happened to you when you were really tiny? So I had life-saving surgery at the age of just four months old and I was in hospital for a large part of my early life and went through a lot of traumatic experiences in hospital and then had a mental breakdown at the age of eight and they later found out that it's caused by that trauma

as a young baby. And what about your life now? So I'm proud to say that I work in marketing and have, you know, mental illness you never recover from. I now know it's kind of with me for life, but I still suffer from PTSD and I still have triggers and sometimes it does spiral out of control. But I've got those coping mechanisms now and I know how to deal with it and I know what it is now because I wasn't diagnosed for eight long years. Andrea was shaking his head a little bit at what you said. Go on, Andrea. I'm really sorry to hear about Flo's experience. And I do wonder if part of the problem is that the diagnosis came too late. So I'm saying this because we know that we have very effective forms of treatment for things like PTSD, but treatment becomes less and less effective if we wait for longer

and perhaps other types of psychopathology come in line as well. What do you think about that, Flo? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that it would have been my, you know, my experience would have been very different if it had been picked up a lot earlier. You know, when I had a mental breakdown at the age of eight, they didn't associate it to be the trauma as a young baby. So I definitely

think if it had been picked up earlier, it would have been a much better outcome. There are all sorts of headlines generated by your research today, Andrea. And also I'm looking at the Times, freshers declaring mental illness up 73% in four years. This is a survey of people starting at university and answering a form when they arrive and claiming, not claiming, saying that they have a mental health condition. We are starting to have conversations all over this country and all over the Western world about mental health. But the truth is, if you try and ring up and get an appointment or get help, you really struggle to do so, don't you? You do. You do. And I am a practicing clinician. Indeed, you're the on-call psychiatrist for much of the south of London.

I am. This weekend. That's correct. That's correct. And so we really see that. We really see that. And it's really distressing to practitioners who see that in their clinic, there is a long waiting list, and they know that there are young people who are suffering and can benefit really from treatment. So what we need is, first of all, to talk more about mental health because that will reduce the stigma and the shame that young people and their family have about talking about mental health problems.

But at the same time, we must have more resources for mental health services. And this is something that is really vital. So in many ways, although I disagree with the fact that some of these statistics might be surprising, because that's what we see in the clinic, I'm really happy if they help making people concerned about these issues. Ultimately, it's about pumping more money into services and resources for our mental health services. And I know that over the weekend, your phone is going to vibrate into life any number of times. And the truth is, you probably won't have the beds, will you?

It's quite possible. That's another of the issues. So not only there are problems with young people being seen in community services, but also at the more extreme end of the distress. So when we need to treat young people in inpatient units, these are incredibly difficult to find across the country. Thank you very much. Andrea Dinesi, who's Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at King's College in London. And also thanks to Flo. Good to hear her sounding so positive this morning. And your thoughts on that. Good to hear her sounding so positive this morning. And your thoughts on that, your experience is welcome. If you've got anything that relates

to what we've just been discussing going on in your life or your family's life, you can email the programme via our website. It's the Oscars on Sunday and we've been talking all week about those forgotten women of Hollywood in a whole variety of roles in the company of the film expert and playwright Melody Bridges. Now today, Melody's going to talk about three of her favourite films directed by women that she thinks really should have won the big prizes, including the Oscars. First, here she is talking to me about Big,

the 1988 comedy that made Tom Hanks a household name. Even when you think about the movie, it makes you smile. It is hilarious and full of joy of life and laughter. This whole kind of out of body experience. Tom Hanks is obviously the adult and he's not supposed to be. And, you know, he's so confused. And you have these lovely childish touches as well. It reminds you why it's fun to be alive. Just the piano scene alone. What happens there? When they dance on the piano in the toy store is absolutely hilarious and something really fun. But this is Tom Hanks who's in an adult body

but the mind because he's really only a little boy. Yes. And he's propelled into a kind of romantic situation. Well a woman is interested in him but he isn't ready for anything like that. He's not really ready for that and that's definitely I i think one of the things i really like about penny marshall is she has a very kind of light touch with that because obviously it's going into a possible dark area but i think it's done in a rather sweet way um that movie was hugely successful at the time she was one of the first filmmakers to actually make a movie which grossed more than 100 million dollars at the box office so it was hugely successful and really contributed to many people thinking that she was going to go on to bigger and better things.

Well, she did direct other films. Yeah, absolutely. But the fact is that what it really comes down to is, unfortunately, the Academy Awards has such power. I think it's a real shame that she didn't win. What did win that year, the Best Director Oscar, went to Bernardo Bertolucci for The Last Emperor, which I saw. And that was epic costume drama. They have a tendency to go for those films. They do. It's true. But when you think of that movie, does it make you smile? I enjoyed it. I think The Big is a classic.

All right. Yes. OK. You're winning me over. It's hard to argue with your arguments, I've got to say. Now, number two is Sofia Coppola's film Lost in Translation. I just don't know what I'm supposed to be. You know? I tried being a writer, but I hate what I write. And I tried taking pictures, but they're so mediocre, you know, and every girl goes through a photography phase, you know, like horses, you know, take dumb pictures of your feet.

You'll figure that out. I'm not worried about you keep writing it is definitely a Marmite film and I have had you know hot debates

with other friends about this issue as well but there were some really charming moments and the whole kind of culture shock they're there in Japan and they kind of

bond together Scarlett Johansson and Bill Murray yeah but he's a lot older than her I know and they kind of bond together, Scarlett Johansson and Bill Murray. Yeah, but he's a lot older than her. I know. And they shouldn't really have a romance, obviously. But it is beautiful and it is funny. And I think it's really well filmed. And I think it really does show that Sophia Coppola is a fantastic, fantastic director. And I think it should have got more credit at the time. Her burden is her surname, isn't it?

Well, it's obviously a double edged sword, isn't it, to have that background. And I believe that, you know, it was based on autobiographical elements of being lost and alone and on sets and being sent out to various places for filming. But I think that she should be recognised more and obviously needs to stand out away from that shadow. The third film we want to talk about is Selma, directed by Ava DuVernay. Now Selma is an important film. It's about Martin Luther King, essentially. It is an incredible movie. This is the film, in terms of being a classic movie, that's really an important film. Selma is just stunning. Dr. Martin Luther King, an outstanding character, played beautifully by David Oyelowo.

And I think he deserved more plelowo. And I think he deserved more plaudits. And I believe that Ava DuVernay did too. What did she get right then? An incredible story and kind of personal story of a man going through troubled times. I love the fact that they also feature his wife's story and how would it be to be married to that man? That must not be an easy situation. It's just beautiful. And although it was nominated for Best Picture, it was not nominated for Best Director. And it won in the Best Original Song category, which is really strange because I don't think anyone remembers that song. People actually say that they will stop the blood running through the hearts of our

children. How are they going to kill my children. And what they'll do to you. And how they'll do it. How many years have I had to listen to this? The filth. Deranged and twisted and just ignorant enough to be serious. If I ask you something, will you answer me with the truth? Yes.

Good. Because I'm not a fool. Do you love me? Yes, I love you, Coretta. It's interesting, isn't it? We'll never be in those rooms, or we'll never be with the people who have the right to vote. Actually, who are they?

Well, they're previous Oscar winners. They are still mainly male,, they're previous Oscar winners. They are still mainly male and they're still mainly white. And of course, until more people of colour and women win Oscars, then it's not going to alter the situation, is it? Indeed. Well, they have recently attempted to make those numbers a little bit different, but I think there's still a massive under-recognition of female talent. And it's up to us as female film goers to support the work of women? Absolutely. If you see a film coming out and you know it's made by a woman, go and support it. Watch it at the box office, download it from Netflix.

This is the way to show the film executives the films that you love. So you better remind the listeners, actually, that only one woman has won the Best Director Oscar, and that is? Catherine Bigelow. For a film called? The Hurt Locker. And the thing is that so often, if a woman is possibly nominated,

and in fact there's only been a few nominations for Women in Director category, they're not recognised in other categories. And strangely, the reverse happens, whereby their movie might be nominated. So Capernaum is nominated in the Best Foreign Language category, but the director is not recognised. That is Melody Bridges talking there about Capernaum directed by the Lebanese director Nadine Labaki. Now she was on Woman's Hour earlier this week

so if you missed that interview and that is a really interesting film you can listen back on BBC Sounds which is also where you'll find the Woman's Hour podcast and late night Woman's Hour as well. Go to the BBC Sounds app, make sure you'll find the Woman's Hour podcast and late night Woman's Hour as well. Go to the BBC Sounds app. Make sure you get all the additional material provided by the Woman's Hour podcast, which bings, pings. That's a combination of bings and pings into your life in the early afternoon or late evening. It's a bit unreliable in terms of timing.

I'll get told off for saying that, but you'll certainly get it at some point during the day. And now the laughter there came from our next guest, Salma-Wadhani who's an activist and poet good morning to you Salma also here we've got the writer Maryam Khan and Maryam you are the woman behind a new anthology of essays by Muslim women it's called it's not about the burqa now all I'll say to you Maryam is the question of timing was this a good week in retrospect for this book to come out? I know, heavy sigh. Big sigh. Go on.

So anyone who works in publishing or if you don't, books are decided a long way, way, away from when they come out. So this book was decided to come out this day about, let's say, almost a year and a half ago. But whether it was a good time, I don't know. I think it's a double edged sword. So I can't say it's a good thing or a bad thing it's a thing that's happened and we're just having to live with it really because you know that I am I am bound to ask you about Shamima Begum and about that well we've had a conversation

about her on this program this week she has been the subject of all sorts of debates some of it pretty ill-informed across the media for the whole of the last couple of weeks. What do you think? I think that I don't have all the facts and I think that there's a lot of opinions out there and I think that it's a complex situation that needs to be looked at through the proper structures that we have in place by people who it's their job

to serve justice and whatnot and whatnot and I think that the narratives that aren't talked about are the ones in this book that are equally as important as that has been inflamed and so this book that talks about mental health and LGBT and bisexuality and stigma and shame and racism and so many other things and um and just muslim women and their lived experiences which are just as valid as as you know that narrative but that narrative that is constantly associated with women and we're not allowed to have another one and i think it's high time that yes we acknowledge that that's an important narrative to have but we keep having the same discussion oh yes and in fact we're in danger of having it again now.

So let's not. So let's move on. I'm really interested in what you have to say about white feminism, Mariam. And it's failure. Oh, God. It's going in. It's going really well. Fantastic.

Well, no, it's important. No, yes, it is. So in the book, my essay is called Feminism Needs to Die. And so it's about my journey into feminism and how I discovered it in university, but how I came to realise that white feminism or what we're selling currently as a society, as mainstream feminism is, in my opinion, white feminism. And it sort of centres a white, straight, middle class, cis, able-bodied. Thank you for looking at me as you say that. I mean, I'm not surprised. OK.

No, no. So it centres a narrative and essentially pushes that narrative on everyone, but not everyone is from that group of people and not everyone will have the same privilege as those people. I mean, I do understand. Well, from my own experience, what can I understand? But I try to understand that white feminism

can be a somewhat exclusive movement. And indeed, well, how would I know? Salma, do you feel excluded from it? Yeah, 100%. I think what Mariam says in her essay is really important in that we have to acknowledge the intersections that we all sit at. Which means what?

So it means, so I and myself and Mariam, we're both women of colour. We're both Muslims. We're not just women and we're fighting for gender on one front. We're fighting on lots of different fronts. We're fighting Islamophobia. We're fighting racism. We're fighting sexism. And it can't simply be put into a gender like a simple oh it's just feminism

and that all of these things add to our complexities of who we are and what our identities are and so often when when people are talking about their feminism or their version of white feminism then they're not very good at including the other elements of oppression. Often all they want to do is think about the woman aspect of you and I can't segregate the person of colour and the faith narrative from my identity. It's a one package and often when the mainstream looks at me it only is willing to accept that one part that it sees as,

that it recognises because it can't accept other parts or facets of my identity. And I think you make that really excellent point in your essay, in that when feminisms tend to look at you, they will immediately assume that you're oppressed or submissive because you decide to cover your head or cover your hair or wear modest clothing, as opposed to seeing it as an independent and empowered choice that you've made as a woman. Salma, your essay is entitled Gender Denied, Islam, Sex and the Struggle to Get Some.

And I was, I mean, this is a great essay. In the third paragraph you say, and I'm going to quote this, as an Egyptian Muslim girl losing my virginity outside wedlock to a white Yorkshire boy who was unsure whether God even existed was one of the sweetest moments of my life. Yes. Expand.

Elaborate. Sorry. No, no, that's fine. So my essay was, I kind of started off talking about how I lost my virginity and how I did it in a space where I shouldn't have, and it was actually against the rules and it was outside my culture and outside my religion. But it was good.

It was a beautiful experience. I stand by it by this day because I think when you're a young woman, you have conversations where it's all awful and it was terrible and not many people have that as a good experience but mine was genuinely this really beautiful encounter but then again immediately afterwards when I talked to friends or from within my community my other Muslim girlfriends it was straight away implied that you know something awful has been done did you pray do you feel guilty and my essay kind of talks about that contradiction and how we deal with that how has that contradiction carried on throughout your life or has it has it has it gone now no I don't think these things leave you in

that way I think it's very much part of your identity and your struggles as a woman who lives in England and who has that experience but also who is a Muslim and who is practicing and who buys into their faith. And whilst also navigating your own cultural spaces, there is, so I always used to say that being a young Muslim woman in England is a lot like being schizophrenic and having so many different personalities that you have to bring out at various stages. You're one person when you go to eat prayer, you're another person when you're fasting in Ramadan, you're another one when you're out,

you know, maybe at night with your friends. you're constantly juggling and I think my whole life has been trying to bring them all together into one person um I very much agree I think the the thing about you saying being different in different spaces I think that's something that we all experience and sort of when you're within your community. And often for me, not the same thing, but for me, the version of that would be within my community. I'm constantly bombarded with religion looking like culture. And when I'm outside of it with friends who see things differently and are frustrated by things differently, we look at religion separately. And we think, OK, culture is culture and religion is religion so there's a different version of myself than with my friends because I know that my

religion isn't enforcing anything upon me whereas within my community sometimes I can feel certain pressures because they think culture is a well religion is culture basically. What is the one thing you want somebody to take away from this collection of essays somebody perhaps has barely ever spoken to a Muslim woman what should they what should they go for which essay would you recommend that they read apart from your own all of them absolutely all of them cover to cover yeah and i think that the thing that i want anyone to take away from this entire book is to think wow those muslim women are so different because at the moment i'm so sick and tired of the same single narrative that is constantly and if if anyone can go away and think wow they're

nothing like each other or or i don't know i didn't know they had this many opinions maybe i should have you know given him the benefit of the doubt mariam here's a bit in your essay feminism needs to die every white feminist i've come across will argue until they're blue in the face that women should have the right to decide how to dress themselves. Well, go on, because that is true that people like me will say, it's none of my business how women dress. And then when I see a woman covered from head to toe, if I'm honest, at my local market, for example, what thought do you think goes through my head at that point I mean I don't even need to guess the thought because I've been told to my face that people think that

I'm oppressed or that I'm not liberated enough or that I'm sort of brainwashed into this idea of thinking my religion is some sort of liberation for me and obviously that's wrong because someone can't look past their own perspective or their worldview. And often that is the case. And I've been told that and like, are you sure it's your decision? Or often, and you know, you can come back at it and a lot of people do. Oh, you know, but people are just curious. But your curiosity comes from a place of questioning my agency and whether me making those decisions is actually me in my conscious mind and whether I have the ability to be making those decisions. I think that's where my frustration with feminism lies.

Here's an email from a male listener, actually, Mark. I've just listened to your feature about feminism and particularly the part of the discussion with the Muslim young women. When I see a Muslim woman, I do not automatically think she must be oppressed. Again, when someone hears Muslim, all they hear is burqa or hijab, and they can't look beyond that. It's interesting because I guess if we're going to look at each individual

and we're going to say, okay, this person doesn't see it, but for the one person that doesn't see it, there's hundreds and hundreds that do. And again, with the title, one thing that I'd really love to mention is my frustration with the title. It's a great title, but having to buy it wasn't your title it was my title but having to buy into that narrative that people already know about us to deconstruct it from within really grates on me because i didn't ever identify as a woman in burqa and it's just a word that has been politicized around muslim women's identity it's been completely taken out of context.

Look at how many women wear the burqa in the UK and then look at how many look at how much that's talked about. And it's disproportionate, disproportionate. Like so the title, it's great. You know, it catches your eye. You know, when you hear it, you're like, great. But I'm having to bind to a narrative that I doesn't represent me or the majority and deconstruct it from within. Because when I'm speaking, all they hear is that, basically. Salma, we were talking just in the studio.

And yes, there are obvious differences between your generation and my generation, between people of Muslim faith and people of no faith or the Christian faith, whatever it might be, something that is similar and will resonate with a lot of our younger listeners is the struggle to find an appropriate partner. And by an appropriate partner, I mean you are an accomplished woman of 30 and it's not easy to find your, it happens to be in your case, a male equivalent.

It's not easy. It's really difficult. I used to tell my girlfriends when they were complaining that they couldn't find good men i said you only have to find a good man i have to find a good man who's muslim on top of that which makes it even harder and i don't i don't subscribe to that notion anymore that that my partner needs to be muslim you don't i don't know um i used to i've kind of worked through that and I don't anymore, even though lots of my female friends do. But it is incredibly difficult.

And like we were saying, women have been asked to define womanhood and girlhood and what type of girl you are going to be, what kind of woman you are going to be from such a young age. Since we popped out of the womb, we've been asked to define this. And so we've been busy talking about it and we've just elevated way past our male peers and they have not done any work on themselves or no that no will they nor do they seem to take the incentive to do any work very downbeat view of no come on i am i need to listen i have recently decided to try and start dating again merely to combat my bias against men. And how's it going? It's awful. It's getting worse. Go on, why? Absolutely worse.

Why? Because dating today is just the most heinous act. Honestly, it's the standard of men that I come across shocks me. And here's another thing. We have this idea that there are good men out there. And there are. 100% there are.

I know lots of them. They're in my family. They're in my friendship circles. But the good men often, they support women's rights. They're going to fight for the gender equality. They're going to work with you. But they still have hooks of society in them that they haven't done the work to pull out. And they need to actively do that work.

So they will still say ridiculous statements or they still have we're all products of our environment right so they still have the patriarchy so deeply ingrained in them and they don't even realize it and they're and it comes out in moments where it's not necessarily that they're constantly thinking it comes out but it does i think you two should be booked immediately for late night woman's hair there is much so much to say I think it'll just make everyone angry

or just like what do you think it does to me I'm a single woman of 54 this isn't helping I don't think the age or generation matters all I can say is it's a barren wasteland out there that is the view that's cheered everybody up.

Salma Al-Wadhan. But keep at it. And Mariam Khan. Thank you both very much. And we should say, people can hear you, Salma, on BBC Radio London. Yes, every Friday night,

8 till 10pm. I'm not as disheartened on Friday night. You cheer up a bit. I cheer up a bit during the day. All right. Thank you both very much. Thank you. And the collection of stories is called cheer up a bit during the day. Thank you both very much. Thank you. The collection of stories is called It's Not

About the Burger. Thank you. Some quick emails about herpes which is one of those things I must, let's be honest when they told me I was doing this I went oh God. But do you know what these discussions can be so helpful to people and this is from Steve I just want to say thank you for that piece

on herpes. I wish I'd heard something like that 30 years ago. I can't tell you how ashamed I felt for three decades. It's such a relief to hear about it spoken in this way. Steve, it's so important that you've emailed. Well, it's made me rethink my initial attitude. So I'd like to apologise. And as I said, almost all of us are carrying this virus around. So there should be absolutely no taboo about this at all. Thank you, Steve.

Anonymous, I'm so glad you've covered herpes on the programme. It's been so good to hear the stories of the women so far. I was diagnosed with herpes, but on the genitals at the age of 21. At the time, I was with a much older and abusive boyfriend. He had told me it was impossible to give me herpes from oral sex when he had a cold sore in his mouth. Despite my refusal, he still forced himself on me. I felt dirty, shameful and humiliated.

Times moved on. I'm no longer with him. And I have a wonderful partner who is completely understanding. But I felt a long time feeling that way. And every now and again, it pops up again. So thank you for talking about it with real women and real cases. Well, thank you to everybody who responded to that discussion about herpes. Clearly very important. And there are links, of course, on the Woman's Hour website if you need more information.

bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Thanks for listening today. We're back live, of course, Monday morning, two minutes past ten. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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