Woman's Hour - Women in Formula 1, Gugu Mbatha Raw, Lambrini Girls

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

Formula 1 has just turned 75, but how much headway are women racing drivers making? Nuala McGovern is joined by Jamie Chadwick, one of the leading British women in this sport, and BBC reporter Charlotte Simpson, who has spent months talking to a wide range of people trying to support more young women to become involved in the sport.Lambrini Girls are a punk duo making waves with their fearless sound and sharp social commentary. Known for their high-energy performances and outspoken stance on gender and equality in music, they’ve become one of the most talked-about bands in the UK’s punk scene. They speak to Nuala about the power of punk, challenging the status quo, and what drives their music. Plus, they’ll be treating us to a special live performance.Actor Gugu Mbatha-Raw joins Nuala in the studio to talk about her acting career, including her latest role in Apple TV+ drama Surface.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. The actor Gugu Mbate-Raw will be with us in studio. She is starring in the second season of Surface playing a woman with memory loss and it's set against the magnificent backdrop of London landmarks. Lots to talk about with Gugu coming up. Also today Formula

One is celebrating its 75th birthday. We have Jamie Chadwick, one of the world's most decorated female racing drivers, joined by reporter Charlotte Simpson as they look at why there have been no female F1 drivers since the 1970s and speaking of the 70s. Punk is dead. Long-lived punk. Which is it? And I want to know is punk part of your life? Since when? How? I want to know about the music that influenced you whether it's now or in the 1970s. Is there, was there something about the message that has stayed with you? And also, who is a punk icon for you? I know the Lombrini girls were enamored with Courtney Love and her

band Hole, but who is it for you? You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note you can use the number 03700 100 444. But let me begin with tennis this morning you might have seen headlines over the past few hours about British tennis player Emma Radikanu losing her match in Dubai. Now many of the pictures were showing her looking tearful as some sources suggested that during the match she was subjected to what the Women's Tennis Association, the WTA, are calling fixated behavior from a man who was part of the public audience.

Emma Raducano herself hasn't spoken about this. The WTA in a statement has said the same individual was identified in the first few rows of her match yesterday. But with tennis, of course course you're on your own on the court spectators can be very close depending on the layout off the court. Some people are asking the question about safety for the players. It is a timely question. The women's professional tennis is coming to returning I really should say but hasn't been there for quite a while to the iconic Queen's Club for the first time in more than 50 years this summer. The British number one Katie Bolter and

Emma Raducanu will be competing in what will be the first women's tournament since 1973. A lot about the 70s this morning. Well joining me is freelance sports journalist Molly McAwee. Welcome to the program. Let me start first with the situation with Emma Raducanu. I know there's just some details but what do we know? Hi morning. What we know is what we saw in the pictures first that Emma Raducanu was only a couple of games into her match when she approached the umpire and she became very tearful. She actually went behind the umpire's chair, seeming me to avoid maybe the cameras but also maybe being seen by the viewing public as well. And her opponent was actually comforting her, she was so distressed. We know now that there was a

man in one of the front couple of rows who had has been described like you, by the WTS as a fixated fan or so-called fan and he was a man who also approached Emma the day before on Monday in Dubai in a public area and she was clearly distressed by this. We also know that Enron Karno has experience of depraved so-called fans harassing her. She had a stalker that was given a five-year restraining order in 2022 after showing up at her home, her family home, three times. So this is an issue that she's had to deal with before and has described feeling like she was looking over her shoulder because of the previous fan, the stalker that was given a restraining order. And this this experience would have definitely shaken that you could you could tell. And it was, yeah, difficult

watch, I think, for people watching at home or even there. And I mentioned that the proximity that you can have, which is a wonderful part of tennis, if you're lucky enough to go to a tournament, you can really be very close to these superstar players. I mean, is that something that's spoken about, whether it's about women players or players in general? Yeah, like you say, I think it's very different to sports like football or rugby, where players really remain either on the field of play or in very specific zones where fans aren't able to access. In tennis, at some tournaments, players literally have to go from court, like they're among the public when they're going from court to court

to get to their matches. Always they have security, you've got to say, they've got security with them, but that's always been such a brilliant part of tennis. You feel close to the action. If you go to Wimbledon, you might be able to catch a glimpse of one of the players going between courts. It's a great part of the sport, but like you say you say especially for women I think on tour it can be a concern. I think we if you go back in history you've got Monica Sellers who was famously stabbed and attacked on court in in Hamburg but then there's also been other examples and examples that happen behind the scenes. Last year I interviewed two different tennis players, British number one Katie Bolter and American player Danielle Collins and both of them spoke to me about being stalked on tour. Katie Bolter in particular told me she was followed in her car

by someone after leaving Queen's Club with her partner who's a fellow tennis player Alex Dimmel. And she also told me about being at the Nottingham tournament, grass court tournament before Wimbledon and receiving messages from someone telling her he was outside and he was going to hurt her and she had to get the WCA involved and WCA security had to remove this fan. So it's an experience I think which affects female athletes generally but definitely for tennis players maybe the circumstances and the style of tournaments that they play open up difficult scenarios like this. Just on the last point in Dubai the tournament that Emma Radkhani was playing at, the tournament venue is very close to the player hotel. And I don't have knowledge of where she was approached

on the Monday in public, but fans at that tournament know that the player hotel is right next door. If they were to hang around long enough, they'd maybe be in with a chance of seeing their favorite player, but then that's for the well-meaning fans. But then you've got maybe other people who might take advantage of that situation.

So yeah, it's a very tricky balance, I guess, for tennis to make their players accessible, but also keep them safe. Let me read a little off the statement from the WTA, the Women's Tennis Association. She said, they say Emma Radican, who was approached in a public area by a man who exhibited fixated behaviour,

the same individual was identified in the first few rows during Emma's match on Tuesday and subsequently ejected. He will be banned from all WTA events pending a threat assessment. They go on to say, player safety is our top priority and tournaments are advised on security best practices for international sporting events. The WTA is actively working with Emma and her team to ensure her well-being and provide any necessary support. We remain committed to collaborating with tournaments and their security teams worldwide to maintain a safe environment for all players. It's interesting really because when I was looking into this this morning, Molly, what came up first is really about online safety and security and some of the measures,

particularly about six months ago, that were enacted. And again, primarily women players who have been affected by that kind of online bullying, harassment. And I'm wondering, are the two conversations taking place? Like is it a two track conversation, shall we say, or are measures being put in place on and off court? I think the two things are connected of course, that online harassment can definitely seep into offline harassment in person and I think I know that the WTO have taken measures in recent years to bring in a safeguarding director to try and think about these things more deeply. There's stricter protocols now about who can get credentials with players so that the player-only areas are only accessed by people who should be

there, for example, and there's also education that's been brought in to educate the players, the people who get those credentials about what is accepted behaviour and what's not. But I guess the trickier thing is with fans or so-called fans and understanding, yeah, how to avoid scenarios like this one where, yes, someone was in all the right places. He wasn't infringing on any areas that he shouldn't have been in. He was in the crowd, but because he had been, he had harassed her previously in a public space,

there was that fear for her, understandably, as someone who is in the public eye and must deal with a lot of harassment online, but also has dealt with it in person public eye and must deal with a lot of harassment online, but also has dealt with it in person as well and understands the safety issues that come with her very public profile. So I think it's a conversation that the two need to happen in tandem, I guess, is what I'm trying to say because I think they're definitely related. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what comes from this because this is really only over the past few hours as well And these are the first lines that we're hearing about this story.

But I want to turn to something more positive. This is Queen's Tennis Club. I was lucky enough to go many years ago and such a gorgeous sight to watch tennis and more intimate again than Wimbledon. Talk to us about the significance of it coming back for women. I think it's hugely significant. Like you say, Queens is a historic club. It's a club that is so intertwined in the build up to Wimbledon, which is obviously one of the biggest sporting events in the British sporting calendar, but also in the tennis calendar as a whole. And I think Queens Club is that build up. I can say it's quite a, it's a historic club,

but it's quite intimate as well. It's as a fan, I think, going to Queen's, you can get a lot of similar feelings that you would get at Wimbledon, I think. And it's incredible to have the women have an event there. Like you say, it's been a long time. It's been more than 50 years since there's been a women event at Queen's.

And though there are some incredible grass-c court women's events that have been happening around the country, you've got Eastbourne, you've got Birmingham and Nottingham that happened during this kind of grass court season, having the women at Queens is significant because it's deemed a really prestigious, I think, event on the men's calendar.

So to have the women form part of that kind of prestigious moment and that warm up to Wimbledon, I think, is really important. And fans know it, that that fan recognition of the event is really important too. And I think getting players like Naomi Osaka, Emma Raducanu, Katie Bolter and the newly crowned Australian Open champion Madison Keys there is significant. It's also run by Laura Robson, tournament director for Laura Robson, who's such a huge figure in the game and is one of the only women tournament directors on tour, so it's significant for that as well. There is one thing though, that the women's prize money will be lower than the men's,

although both events will be WTA 500 tournaments? Well the men's event is an ATP 500, the women's event is a WTA 500, like you say, same level and I agree with you there should be equal prize money. The thing is this... Well I wasn't taking an opinion, I was just putting it out there. Right, okay, well my opinion is that equal prize money should exist for women's tennis across the board, unfortunately it only exists at the Grand Slams currently and I think it should be a conversation, if this starts a conversation about it then brilliant because a high profile event like Queen's in my opinion should have equal prize money but it's an issue that continues across

the calendar and maybe is something that falls under the radar because the grandstands have equal prize money. People assume that the rest of the tour does but it doesn't. Really interesting to hear your thoughts on all of that. Of course we haven't got very many details on Emma Raducanu yet. I imagine more will come out as the day progresses but Molly McIlwee, a freelance sports journalist, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Right, I was asking, who are the punks among us listening this morning? Quite a few of you. I came late to punk in the late 70s,

living in a rundown, poor part of London. It made my surroundings more bearable. Who wanted to live in a nice, tidy suburb? So boring. What I also loved was that women could be as loud and rough as men on stage. No need to be perfectly packaged and sexy. Here's another.

Punk was a gift. Growing up, I was repressed and oppressed. I was too young to articulate my anger and punk happened. It was my outlet, my fuel. I loved it. Polly Styrene, haha, is my punk icon and oh bondage up yours is my life's soundtrack. Keep them coming. 84844. We're going to have the Lambrini girls on. That's why I'm asking about your punk memories,

your punk present this morning. Now, you might recognise my next guest from a number of TV, film and theatre roles. What about her award winning breakthrough inma Asante's 2013 film Belle to perhaps playing Hannah in The Morning Show, Ravana Renslaer in Marvel's Loki TV series. What am I talking about? I'm talking about Gugu Mbathiro of course. And she is returning to our screens, it's on Friday I believe, I got lucky enough to see it a little bit early. Season two of Surface on Apple TV, she's also producing this and it tells the story of a woman, Sophie, who didn't catch season one, who suffered an injury that wiped out her memories. And she's trying to unravel her past. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Oh, thank you for having me. So let's talk a little bit about the second series of Surface. How does it feel to have it in London? I mentioned at the beginning,'s this magnificent backdrop of London landmarks. It's such a source of pride to be able to bring a show home to London. For me, season one, we filmed it in Vancouver but it was set in San Francisco and at the end of the show Sophie gets on a plane, she leaves her husband, and she ends up in London.

And it really is a wonderful, almost another character in the show, the setting of London. We have so many incredible landmarks and incredible locations. And obviously just personally for me as a Brit, to be able to be home and then work with a much bigger British cast this season. We have Oliver Jackson-Cohen, Millie Brady, who were in the first season, but now we have Frieda Pinto and Phil Dunster. And then a huge cast of actors that I grew up watching on TV like Nina Sorsana, Tara Fitzgerald, Rupert Graves, Jolie Richardson. So it's a wonderful ensemble.

It feels very British. So when I was watching and I'm like, oh, look, her, him, him, him. Oh, look, that building. Honestly, it's like spot the whatever, which I really loved. But I understand that you were a tour guide once in London. That's right. Yes, when I was at drama school,

I had a Saturday job at the London Eye. And at the weekends, I would be there on the private capsules showing people the sights and also on their river cruise experience, which took you along the Thames down to Tower Bridge and back again. And I'd sort of be explaining all the sights on either side of the river. And it was very a surreal moment to be filming surface

on the Millennium Bridge, you know, one early Saturday morning where we closed off the whole bridge and then seeing my boat that I used to work on go underneath us and pass down towards Tower Bridge. So it feels like such a full circle moment. Were you imparting your knowledge to your co-stars? I mean, at the time I was in a rather intense scene where Sophie is discovering a clue to her past. But I did mention to the director, Ed Lilley,

our amazing director that did three episodes of the show. I was like, this is such a pinch me moment. I used to work on that boat. This is so special. Well, OK, so you've got kind of a dual identity there, right? That we have your tour guide persona from back in the day. And then we've got, you know, this glamorous actor that has flown in to our home city to do this incredible series.

But dual identity is something that you're interested in exploring with your character, Sophie, too. Tell me more about that. Yes. So Sophie, as you explained in season one, has this accident where she loses her memory and initially in the first season, we're very much in her sort of the psychological effects of that. She's having flashbacks. She's trying to figure out who she can trust from her husband or her lover and looking to these two men initially to figure out, you know,

piecing her life back together. But then she has these flashbacks of a woman called Eliza, who's played by Millie Brady, who calls her Tess. And then another woman calls her Tess, you know, throughout the show. And so when we actually come back to London, we discover that she was known as Tess, but she doesn't remember who this other identity was. So it's really an identity story of her sort of looking for clues, almost like the detective of her own life trying to figure out who was Tess and how was she involved with this family, the Huntley family. I want to stay with identity for a moment. I've called you by your name, Gugu, full name Guguletu?

Guguletu, yes. But I believe at the beginning of your career, you were advised to change your name, which you stood for? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there was one actor that suggested that, you know, things might be easier if I change my name. But Guguletu means our pride in Zulu. So for me, the idea of changing that just seemed like the antithesis of what my name actually means. And I feel that now Gugu is, it's an unusual name here, but in South Africa, there's lots of Gugus, lots of Guguletus. There's even a township outside of Cape Town called Gug, you know, I have to be proud of my name and I chose to stick with it. So I'm glad I did.

And that's part of your South African background. Your father fled South Africa during apartheid, I understand. And among the many roles you've had, you also are a UN Goodwill Ambassador for UNHCR, that's the UN Refugee Agency. You were awarded Philanthropist of the Year in 2023 by Harper's Bazaar. I'm wondering your upbringing, kind of being aware of apartheid, if you were, you can tell me how so, and whether that ties in with some of those roles that you have internationally. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, the work that I've been privileged to do with UNHCR,

as my cousins in South Africa would say, is almost an ancestral call. I think that the idea of being able to bring awareness to, you know, the journey of refugees to humanize those stories is definitely something that was awakened in me, you know, at the kitchen table with my dad talking about his experience. And I think growing up in South Africa, as my dad always says, you are politicized at birth at the time of apartheid if you're a black person. So no, for me, it's a real honor

and it also feels very authentic to who I am that I've been able to travel to Rwanda, to DRC, to Uganda and also to be able to raise awareness. That's so interesting that you go back to the continent of Africa as well because I suppose South Africa holds a particular place as it is at the bottom of the continent and then you get these different experiences in some of the countries that you've mentioned. Does it feel at all like home if you go to South Africa? Oh, it's such a beautiful country. I mean, it's such a complex legacy of apartheid. But you know, whenever I go, I'm always stunned with, you know, the natural beauty of the country and the warmth of the people and get to see my family and my cousins

you know all over the place. So no I love to go whenever I can. I've been so busy working lately I'm due a trip very soon. Let's get back to the work for a moment. It's a psychological thriller I think we can describe in many ways but would surface. Why do you think there is such a fascination with psychological thrillers at the moment? I think it's the mystery element you know know, I think certainly in our show, our showrunner Veronica West has done this amazing job of weaving these twists and turns that really keep you guessing. And I think, you know, for me, certainly, I'm interested in seeing these messy, flawed

characters, you know, and in surface, it's very difficult to know who to trust, you know, we're in the gray area of not really judging people as good or bad, you know, I think there is that complexity to those characters. And I think that audiences want to lean into those kind of stories where you want to be kept on your toes. And it is there is a sort of deliciousness of seeing a character like Sophie in a female driven thriller, which you know is still surrounded by females. Exactly. And you know, I have Hello Sunshine to thank for that Reese Witherspoon's company, who are the producers of the show for really inviting me into being an exec on the show. What was that like? Executive producing? This wasn't your first time executive producing? It is on this show, because it's the second season. I got to be a co-producer on The Girl Before,

which was a show I did on BBC One and HBO Max a couple of years ago. But no, this is the first time I've been a part of something really from its gestation. There was a pilot script initially. And so you're getting those scripts earlier? You're seeing those characters earlier? Yes. I mean, I was on board with Rh Reese and our showrunner and the producers at Hello Sunshine to pitch the show to Apple, my first ever pitch on Zoom. How is that?

You know, kind of nerve-racking because I hadn't done it before, but I think what's lovely when you are the lead of a show is you can speak really authentically to what you do know, which is the arc of the character and what drew you to the role. And I think it's been an amazing learning curve for me to be able to see what goes on really in making the show in terms of hiring the directors, the cinematographer, the composer, and then being a part of the post-production process as well. And just how incredibly collaborative it is. It's been really empowering. I saw that you called Reese Witherspoon a mentor.

How has she influenced you? What should like to be up close and personal, Reese Witherspoon? She is such an inspiration. I've been really fortunate. I first worked with her on A Wrinkle in Time, the film directed by Ava Duvernay. We just had one scene together in that. And then of course, The Morning Show,

which was also produced by Hello Sunshine and also on Apple. You were amazing in that. Oh, well, thank you. And it was just such a meaty storyline. Yeah, yeah. For people, I'm not going to support it because some people are still watching it. But yeah, check it out if you haven't. Yeah. So, you know, the fact that Reese had come along, formed her own production company, was making these female centered stories. To me, it's just so incredibly inspiring. And to have her support, she's just

been such a champion of surface all the way through. So yeah, it really, I feel like not just in front of the camera, but behind the camera, seeing women producers bringing stories to life is something that I hope to do more of. Before I let you go, I heard that you picked up a new habit during lockdown, something you take with you now everywhere. Oh, do you want to tell our listeners what it is? Is it my trampoline? My miniature trampoline?

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, the world is tough these days, you know, the real world is tough. And I think during COVID, I was in LA and I went, a friend dragged me to a trampoline class right before lockdown. And I was like, this is crazy. This is so much fun. It's a miniature, I guess you grownups would call it a rebounder, but I call it a trampoline because it gives me so much joy. And I think, you know, it's a way of bouncing out any stress. You can't jump on a trampoline more than two or three times without feeling uplifted. So I feel like it's a way of bouncing out any stress. You can't jump on a trampoline more than two or three times without feeling uplifted. So I feel like it's a sort of natural antidepressant, but also, you know, something that I can take with me when I'm on location and, you know, feel like I've

got that routine that's going to, you know, keep me uplifted. I love it. I've got a little foldable yoga mat, but I much prefer the trampoline idea. Gugu Mbatha-Raw, thank you so much for coming in. Surface season 2 premieres on Apple TV this Friday, February 21st and the first season, if you want to catch up on that, is also available to watch now. Right, let us turn to the official 40th anniversary of East Enders. It's today! The first episode is broadcast on the 19th of February 1985, watched by 13 million people. Tomorrow on BBC One there will be a very special live and interactive episode of The Soap where viewers will have the chance to vote on the outcome of one of the storylines, the love triangle between Denise, Jack and Ravi. Well last week on Women's Hour,

Anita broadcast live from the set of EastEnders. She was joined by Michelle Collins who plays Cindy Beale, Kelly Bright who plays Linda Carter, Diane Parrish who plays Denise Fox and Heather Pease who plays Eve Unwin-Panisar. Anita spoke to Diane who plays Denise about the upcoming live episode. Diane let's talk about your storyline because something very exciting is happening for you. Denise's love triangle. How are you feeling about this? The centre of the live interactive episode. This is the first time in the show's history that EastEnders viewers will be able to cast the vote to influence the outcome of your story. So, and we're asking

them who should Denise's future be with? Ex-husband Jack or a lover Ravi? They're two very different men. Denise does seem to have a track record for men a little younger. But we love it for your character. Yes. We do. Do we? Are you enjoying it? And why not? Why not? And why not? Why not, absolutely. And the thing is, like Michelle has said, I mean, there is ageism.

It seems to be almost forgiven and OK, the ageism, because nobody, nobody that I know of has yet said anything about older men with younger women in the show. In the way that they say things about women with younger men. And he's not a child. Anita, they're speaking on the set of EastEnders to just some of the female actors involved. You can listen back to that whole special programme on BBC Sounds. It's the Women's Hour episode for the 13th of February. Right, lots of punks in our audience. Sarah, I played bass guitar in the UK's first all-mum punk band in the early 2000s. Punk was important for me as a new mum. It gave

me a place to express complex feelings which were otherwise hard to find a voice for, like anger and frustration, which could be expressed with a sense of humour and a lot of noise. Here's another one. For the last three years I've been a member of the Hastings punk choir. We have over 70 members, women and men. It's been the most fun, joyous experience, so much irreverent humour and a real friendship group. As a 67 year old woman who never had any confidence to sing in public I now love putting on my punked up jacket and performing. Keep them coming. 84844. If you are a punk and want to tell us why, the icons, what music, what's the message with the Lombini girls coming up shortly. Let us go to a different sort of noise. To that of Formula One. The sport

has just celebrated its 75th anniversary but how much headway are women racing drivers making? What are the obstacles that still stand in their way? Well Jamie Chadwick is one of the leading British women in this sport who has to base herself in the US to help her career thrive. We also have with me in studio BBC reporter Charlotte Simpson who has spent months talking to a wide range of people trying to support more young women to become involved in what is still a very male dominated world. Rebalancing the Grid, a fabulous documentary on Five Live that I was listening to yesterday. It's an hour and a half. I feel immersed in Formula One now. They both join me.

Jamie, let me start with you. For those that are uninitiated, what is the attraction of motorsports and particularly Formula One? It's a great question. I mean, especially now it's becoming increasingly more popular. I think Formula One is probably an all-time high of attention. And for me, I got involved in the sport from a young age. I fell in love with it. I was fortunate enough to start in go-karts, which is how most people get into the sport. And yeah, I loved it. I came from different sports, so I was competitive. But I think as a sport goes, it's at such a high level now from both a technology point of view,

a competitive point of view, a sporting point of view. And so all these things come together, spread around the world at amazing, amazing racetracks all over the world. It's incredible. So yeah, it's a great sport. I'm glad other people are starting to see how great it is as well. And yeah, it's a sport I've loved for so long now. We'll get into some of the reasons why women aren't represented at the levels that they should be. But what was your path to becoming a racing driver? Yes, so kind of slightly unorthodox in many ways. My parents weren't from a motorsport background, but I had an older brother that started in go-karting.

And yeah, I just followed him into it initially. Very much the hobby, did it as something that I enjoyed, but more for fun than anything else. And I started progressing through, I was fortunate enough to win a scholarship in a Genesta Junior Championship, which is a junior car racing series in the UK. And from there, it kind of just sort of escalated year on year. And I'm very fortunate that now there are a lot of initiatives and doorways opening for women in the sport. And yeah, I've been a big beneficiary of a lot of those.

So, yeah, fortunate enough to kind of continue my career along. And go karting, of course, is a huge part of this path towards becoming an elite driver. Charlotte, 75 years of the sport as I mentioned, its birthday, but women are barely represented in some ways less than they were a number of years ago. Talk us through one of the main reasons that you feel that's happening. There are really multiple reasons I think the main ones that you feel that's happening? There are really multiple reasons. I think the main ones that kept coming up in my discussions were money. We've known that for a long time. It's an extremely expensive sport. This is a, and that's also a struggle for male races as well as female races, but it's not like

training for a marathon. You can't just pop your trainers on and train yourself for free. Every time you get in a go-kart or in a car in Formula 4, Formula 3, Formula 2, it's going to cost you. And so getting enough money and backing to be able to continually do that, to get time on task, to develop your skills is really difficult. And it's something that women have throughout this whole period have struggled from what I've been told more so than their male counterparts. It's a little bit unclear as to why, for example, maintaining sponsors has been more difficult for women, but it's it's been it has been really difficult for them. As Jamie mentioned, carting is where most people begin their careers. And we're

not getting enough cart girls into carts at the moment. If you think about it, it's a bit of a needle in a haystack trying to find that one mega talented person to reach all the way to Formula One. Now you have thousands of boys willing and ready to do that compared to the pool of women is still very small. We will come on to talk about what's been done to do that. But those two are definitely some of the main reasons as well as sort of some of the persisting attitudes around women in this sport too. Misogyny basically. Absolutely. Because what I found fascinating is that you found and we probably should say actually and maybe Charlotte you want to do, Formula One is just one, there's F2 as well,

there's F3 which are lower down the rankings so to speak, Formula One is the Pinnacle of course. There's F3, which are lower down the ranking, so to speak. Formula One is the pinnacle, and that people kind of go up from three to two, two to one. And you found that women were included in Formula One at one point, and they disappear. Yes, across its 75 year history, only five women have actually had a chance to qualify for a Grand Prix. The one that people might have heard of the most is Italy's Lella Lombardi, who is to this day still the only and last woman to have scored points in Formula One. That was in the 1975 Spanish Grand Prix. Since then, we've had women take part in various F1 weekends, in practice sessions,

female F1 test drivers where they get to jump in the car and test out components and get some experience. But apart from that, the closest we've had women to climbing the ladder, we had Tatiana Calderon, who was a Colombian driver who competed in Formula 2. So that's the second rung of the ladder in 2019 and 2022. And up until recently, we had Sophia Flirsch, the German driver who's competed across three seasons in Formula 3. She's not competing this season, it looks like last season was potentially her last. So currently we don't have any women up and down that Formula Lada at the moment. But you did speak to one woman who's now in her 80s who is driving in the 70s and 80s, Davinia

Galizia. Tell us a little about her and I believe we have a little clip as well. Yes, Davinia Galizia is fantastic. She was originally an Olympic skier for Great Britain. She competed across four Olympics, the last of which was in 1992 when she was 47, which really, I think, completely sums up the type of woman she is. She lived fearlessly and she sort of fell into motorsports in a way at the age of 28 when she took part in a celebrity race and she was talent spotted. She then was someone took her under their wing and she was trained up and she tried to qualify for a number of Grand Prix's, was unsuccessful but she did have a chance to race alongside some of the greats, Niki Lauda, Marianne Dretti, which she felt

so honoured to do. And I asked her just, you know, how did those men treat her as she started to climb the ladder? And also, what was it about skiing that made her a good candidate for this? They were pretty good. Although I did have one driver, he said, I don't believe your time. He said you couldn't have possibly done that time. It was faster than his obviously. I said well you can go and ask the timekeepers, you know, they do the times. Although in those days it was hand timing it. They'd hit the clock with their fingers. So it might have been out by a tenth or something.

But I think the most important thing was I was so strong. I was so immensely strong from my physical training and fitness. And I remember the instructor who took me out in the car, he said, you're not afraid. And I said to him, how could I possibly be afraid? I've got brakes in this car. On skis you don't have brakes. And he thought that was quite comical. There we go, Davina Galizia speaking about how the men treated her on the track. Jamie, let me come back to you. How have the men treated you? It's a good question. To be honest,

I've not had too many issues in the sport. And I think that's one positive thing is, I think the hardest bit is getting into the sport. You get into the sport and you're a young racing driver. I think now most start between the ages of six and eight. And really that's kind of the best stage to start. I was relatively late at the age of 12 and I had an older brother that definitely helped me through it. But I wasn't for that reason too intimidated by being in such a male-dominated environment. I felt comfortable to kind of go about what I was doing and I just did it because I enjoyed it.

But at the same time I think that initial bit is the tricky bit. So that entry level, but you know what I'm fascinated by is what it takes to be an elite driver, particularly the strength. Talk us through that, Jamie. I mean, 12, like I was listening to your documentary and some are suggesting that, you know, young girls who are carting eight, nine, ten should be lifting weights to be ready to go up to the next level. And that kind of blew my mind.

But I see you're nodding, Jamie, so you're probably not that surprised. Tell me about what's what's required. Not at all. I think it's one of the biggest misconceptions with the sport is that it's not physical when reality is incredibly physical. And I think we know that female bodies develop at different rates to the males at counterparts. And like I say, when you're looking at such young ages, all these little details add up and there is for sure only just starting to become an increased kind of, yeah, awareness of this side of the sport and making sure that the right physical preparation is taken in order. I think for me, it's something I've massively struggled with throughout my

career. Unfortunately, I've had sort of the time and a bit more patience to develop when needed, but it's not always been the case. So for sure, it's a physical sport. Whether it's too physical for women to compete in, I don't think so. But at the same time, I think we don't really know. You know, you mentioned, you referenced Formula 2, Formula 3. We've seen such few women at these high levels, and obviously Formula 1, that really until we get more women up to these levels and competing regularly and ultimately competing and fighting at the front, I think there's still so much research that we aren't aware of yet and I don't think we should be afraid to say that. I

think it's a sport that historically has maldominated, it's changing at a rapid rate, but I think we can just take our time a little bit now. I don't think we should rush this process and for sure in Formula One, as you know, you both mentioned, there's only 20 seats, which is so few, really at the highest level. Yeah, definitely. I mean, in some ways, it kind of gave me parallels to horse racing. You know, I had a friend who was very into it and said, you know, there was three things that she was never going to be short, male or rich. So perhaps there are some parallels, but now you have Rachel Blackmore, who is, you know, this amazing champion. But let me talk about perhaps a glaring question in all of this, Jamie.

Why isn't the sport segregated or would you like it to be? I think it's, as you say, if you look at horse racing, it's a sport that doesn't need to be segregated. I think at the moment, it doesn't need to be in my opinion, because, you know, to the levels that I've competed at, I've never felt like it's my gender that's let me down or anything like that. And I just feel like it's a lack of numbers. You know, I can say you look at the top 20 drivers in the world, there's only 20 Formula One drivers in the world, rarely does that change year on year. So then you look at the amount of female drivers that start in the sport, naturally, there aren't going to be many that filter through to the higher levels, let alone Formula One. So I feel like participation needs to increase. And that's the first thing. But I think in

terms of the segregation side of it, I don't think it is too physical. And I do think that it's a sport, unlike a lot of other sports that women can compete equally against men and I think there's so much to be said for that, like in horse riding for example. You have set up a carting business for girls and young women, so that is that entry level point. How's it going? It's going really well, surprisingly well in many remarks. I think when I started in carting, I could list maybe on one hand the amount of young women that started. We started this karting series last year, it is an all-female championship, but really it's aimed at just trying to increase, like I say, that entry-level grassroots level of participation. What we're trying to do is just give an easy way into the sport in the sense that it's not going to put anyone going to put anyone off. It's not you're not going to turn up be the only female driver there.

You know, you've got like minded other female drivers also competing. And this year we introduced it for eight year olds as well onwards. So kind of targeting that young age. And yeah, like I said, the numbers from the first year were really surprising for me. I think we had over 450 female drivers come through. And I think it's also, it's an expensive sport. It's not an easy sport for anyone to get into, but that doesn't mean which should be so elitist

that you can only be in the sport if you want to be a professional driver. I think everyone should be free to enjoy the sport and have the opportunity to at least try it. And I think there's a lot of pleasure that I get seeing so many people enjoying it like I did when I started. A couple of things.

I saw this morning, This season drivers face a possible one month ban if they repeatedly swear or criticise the sports governing body, the FIA. These are rules, they're introduced, some people pushing back against it because the mics are open so we can hear everything that's happening on the track. Are women just as sweary as the men? Some are I think. I think it's funny, everyone's got different characters. But it's a tricky one, I think, in terms of that sort of double-edged sword is, you know, the sport has had eyeballs on it for a long time. Now they've got microphones under their mouths for everything they say, they're scrutinised heavily. And I think in the heat of the moment, these drivers, the pressure is enormous.

And what they're going through on a weekly basis is huge. And I think there's got to be a fine line in terms of how they're able to express themselves. But at the same time, the audience is growing, younger people are watching and there's got to be a little bit of give and take, I'm sure, on that side. Interesting. There's quite a lot of fun articles you can read this morning about it and the reaction to it. Charlotte, what do you reckon? You've done this rebalancing the grid available now on BBC Sounds. Are you hopeful? I think we are seeing momentum like we've not seen before. Loads of young women coming to... Yes, with the likes of Jamie's carting series as well as the work that the F1 Academy,

which is the new all-female series that launched a couple of years ago, the work that they're doing to, which is the new all-female series that launched a couple of years ago, the work that they're doing to help improve participation and by existing themselves. I probably should mention just as we talk about this, there was a previous all-female series, the W series, which collapsed in 2022 due to financial problems. But do you feel that was, I was going to say a blip in the road or something, but I won't. How would you describe it? Well, it was quite different to what we have now. It was also independently owned, whereas

the F1 Academy, which we have now, is owned by Formula One itself. So they have skin in the game now. They've invested their own money. So there are hopes that that means we could have more success. Suzy Wolf, who heads up the F1 Academy, has done a lot of work to try and make sure that they've learned from the lessons of the W Series. For example, we have things like all the Formula One teams are also now involved with backing drivers. They nominate a driver, they help provide training and resources, really creating a direct visible link between the top and the bottom of the sport to try and ensure that it has as much visibility as possible and that you know those financial lessons perhaps can be learned a bit more so

hopefully people are thinking that this might be able to at least have more success. Really interesting stuff thanks to both of you for coming on JB Chadwick one of the leading British women in this sport and Charlotte Simpson as I mentioned rebalancing the grid listen to it and learn if you're not already an aficionado. Lots of you getting in touch about being punks. Oh actually before that let's get Graham and Suffolk. He says if you look at top fuel drag racing in Europe men and women compete on equal terms and women regularly beat the men. That's a bit punk. Here's another. I'm 54 I've always been punk without ever being an

actual punk. Punk is a spirit and a force. It gives me the confidence to speak out and express my feelings in a way that challenges the norm. It's the part of me that wants to walk backwards in IKEA and not follow the rules. Punk is a voice that all women can adopt. Why am I speaking so much about punk this morning. Well, it's because the Lambrini Girls punk duo are with me in studio. They have this reputation now for electrifying performances, lyrics that take on everything from gender politics to social injustice. They are Phoebe Lunney and Lily Massiera.

They hail from Brighton. They've been tearing up stages across the UK. They're about to hit the road again. Huge tours just looking at the vast ground that you're about to cover. But they have stopped in. They're going to give us a live performance, which I am excited about. One of the most exciting punk bands around right now, and Iggy Pop agrees. How does that sit with you, Phoebe?

That's very nice. Appreciate it. I guess you know it's up to interpretation, some people like it, some people don't, but at the end of the day, Bobbsie Dillon, I think we're really good. I'm having a great time. What is it like, Lilly, being a female duo on the punk scene? Because people come back to that again and again, two women, two women, two women. Yeah, people do kind of like to come back to the fact that we're women and I think it's kind of a double-edged sword to be honest because I do think there was maybe a time where it was necessary for that distinction to be made. I think some could argue that it's still necessary. I would like to see us moving towards kind of stopping that distinction and that

sort of segregation. I would like to be seen first and foremost just as a musician rather than a female one, if you know what I mean. Just because I think that that's what we should be ultimately moving towards is a world where that distinction no longer needs to be made. It's like if we can't be like we shouldn't that we should just be able to directly be compared to men like it shouldn't be like oh there's like a guitarist being a male is just a guitarist but it's always a woman guitarist it's always women in music female guitarist is what you hear a lot and I think it's because ultimately it's a a woman guitarist. It's always women in music. Female guitarist is what you hear a lot.

And I think it's because ultimately it's a way to make sure that, you know, women are put in a separate space. Let's talk about the album debut. Congratulations. Thank you. Who Let the Dogs Out is the name of it. Went straight in at number 16 in January. Why did you call it Who Let the Dogs Out? Just thought it was funny. Just thought it was really funny.

Yeah, just a laugh. Yeah, we like we couldn't think of anything better. When I looked, do you remember the song Who Let the Dogs Out back in the day? And I was looking at it this morning and they called it that it was basically trying to point out male bad behaviour. We've had like different things because we heard, at first we heard that it was, it was like basically it was really misogynistic and referring to women as the dogs. And then we heard it was about men being pigs.

And women calling it out. Yeah, there seems to be a lot of feminist subtext in that song. A lot of discourse. Yeah, a lot of feminist discourse around that song, which we weren't aware of. But it works out great because it kind of I think it's been pointed out to us that we're sort of reclaiming it if it is about. Yeah, I couldn't believe how old the song was. It made me feel kind of old when I looked it up.

Here's one. I'm asking the punks among us this morning to get in touch. Here's Ula and Ellie. We saw Lumbini girls in Bristol recently. I took my 14 year old daughter and she loved it. They've really awoken a feminist ethic in her. And she's questioning so much more about what is happening around her and to her. That's so lovely.

Thank you for bringing your 14 year old daughter. That's so sweet. I mean, I guess ultimately, you know, if we're doing stuff like that, it means we're doing our job right. I think it's really important to make sure that you're sort of enforcing safe spaces, which gives you the option. Let's talk about that. What do you mean by that? I think what's, I mean, what you see a lot, I think in the mainstream is there's a lot of talk about making sure spaces are safe, but then there's, you know, there's talk in

the talk, there's walk in the walk. What are you actually doing to make sure that space is safe? What conversations are you bringing into that space? Because I think- Are you talking about gigs specifically? Gigs? I mean, you can in any sort of sense of way. I mean, I guess to make this a safe space right now being women's hour, I could say like solidarity with like any trans women who are listening, when there's a lot of discourse at the moment that say they might not feel safe to, you know, be in an inclusive space like that. Doing something like that is a great way to make it safer.

And this is an issue, of course, that we've discussed a lot on Woman's Hour. And we know there are strong opinions on all sides. That's what Woman's Hour is about, airing those opinions and being able to have a discussion about them. But I know also when it comes to the music industry, you call out in some of your songs what you see as bad behavior by musicians, by bands. How is that being received? I think there's a significant disconnect, I think, with a lot of men in particular

where you can talk about the issues and the violence and harassment that women face in the industry or the fact that we get tokenized or made to feel uncomfortable, there's a real disconnect between concern and actually doing anything about it. I think that's why there's a lot more of like an open discourse about women in the music industry, but it hasn't actually changed that much. Do you think, Lily, do you see any change or how are you feeling about it at this point?

Because you're a good few years in at this stage. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we're very lucky to be in a position where I think most people that come to our shows, you would think sort of agree with what we stand for in the first place. You do still sometimes kind of see when we're playing live and we're trying to make a point, we're trying to communicate and, you know, share our views. There is sometimes where men find it difficult to listen to us because we're women and like we are interrupted. We have had situations before at shows where

for some reason someone in the crowd wants to make it about themselves. So I think there is definitely still a conversation to be had there. I think especially with men making space for women or just letting women have the space that they're taking up. That seems to be something that's a bit of an issue for a lot of people still. So, yeah, I think we've still got a bit of a way to go. There's a lot of conversations to be had. You have explosive live shows. There's crowd surfing, there's jumping into the audience. How is it to crowd surf? Phoebe, I think it's you that's

really jumping out there. I do, I like crowd surfing, I like jumping off things as well and I like climbing things but sometimes it's a bit scary, sometimes like you'll be at a festival and you'll climb like the big like rig in the middle that holds it all together and you'll get really high and you'll look down you're like I'm gonna die but haven't so far. Um, but it's fun. Sometimes people grab your bum though and you got to boot them in the face. Um, but it's all part of. That's what I was wondering whether you do come up against that sort of

harassment. Yeah, we, we absolutely do. I think both of us even, which is really quite strange seeing as how much of a point we make out of wanting to create a safe space for everybody. But yeah, it does happen a lot. It does happen. How much do you enjoy? I've looked at a lot of your videos. They're really fun. They're energetic, decadent at times. How important are they to you? By videos, do you mean our music videos? Yeah.

The last one we did, I was really, really late and everyone thought I went missing, but it's because I went on a night. Yeah. I wouldn't say you being late is an indication of how important it is though, because you're late to everything. Is that part of the punk lifestyle? Let's say yes. But how did you get into punk?

And I know I'm going to have to get you to play in about 30 seconds. But Courtney Love, I heard, was a big influence on both of you. You were enamored with her. She's always been also very outspoken. Who else? Kathleen Hanna is a massive influence for me. Kim Gordon for me. So they're all like from a while ago and now? Amy Taylor from Amal and the

Sniffers. She's a good friend of ours. I think so too. Yeah. Before we go into your song, this is no homo, give me a controversial title perhaps, but what is the song about? It's about internalised homophobia and basically battling with sort of repressing yourself and your desires and the sort of shame and guilt that comes with that and sort of reclaiming it. The Lambrini girls in the Woman's Hour Studio. Their debut album is Who Let the Dogs Out? And the tour kicks off at the end of this month, coming to the UK in April. Loads of fun. Do join Anita tomorrow.

She'll be speaking to Lisa Lloyd about her new book, Raising the Sen Betweeners, which she hopes will be a guide for parents like her raising neurodivergent children. And Amy Heckerling and Katie Tunstall will be live in studio to discuss their new musical Clueless. You don't want to miss that either. Thanks for spending some time with me and I will see you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Nicola Cochlan and for BBC Radio 4 this is history's youngest heroes. Rebellion, risk and the radical power of youth.

She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. 12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them that resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now. Subscribe to history's youngest heroes on BBC Sounds.