Woman's Hour - Women in Formula One, Monstrum, Sex education, Bridgerton dresses

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Schools in England should not teach about gender identity, according to new draft guidance from the government, due to be published in full today. There is also a plan to ban sex education for under-nines. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has said the new guidance would ensure children were not "exposed to disturbing content". Anita Rani talks to Elaine Dunkley, BBC Education Correspondent to find out the latest.Talking about her new book, 'How To Win A Grand Prix', Formula One expert Bernie Collins takes Anita behind the scenes of an F1 team, and explains how she forged a career working as a performance engineer at McLaren for names such as Jenson Button, then became Head of Strategy at Aston Martin, with world champion Sebastian Vettel. Yesterday senior coroner Martin Fleming issued a warning after Georgia Brooke was fatally strangled or "choked" by her boyfriend, Luke Cannon, during sex. Mr Cannon was himself found dead the following day. The coroner described the practice of choking as "dangerous" and said "it all too often ends in fatal consequences". Georgia Brooke was twenty-six when she died in 2022. In his conclusion, Mr Fleming said that while there was no evidence that her boyfriend had intended to kill his girlfriend during the incident, he had used "excessive" force. Anita speaks to Fiona Mackenzie, the leader of the We Can't Consent to This campaign which was formed as a response to the increasing number of women and girls killed and injured in violence that is claimed to be consensual. 16-year-old Eleanor Shenderey from North Yorkshire has gone viral on social media after posting herself wearing handmade historical outfits. From the Tudors and the Victorians to the TV show Bridgerton, she has been inspired to make over 300 dresses - some of which have taken months to complete. Eleanor joins Anita to discuss how and why she does it. Lottie Mills won the BBC Young Writers’ Award in 2020 for her short story, The Changeling. It will now feature in her debut book, 'Monstrum,' alongside a collection of modern fairy tales, telling the experiences of characters excluded and othered by their societies. Lottie has cerebral palsy and hopes the book will challenge the representation of disability in fiction. She talks to Anita about how growing up with a disability, she always understood herself through stories: Greek mythology and British folklore; Shakespeare’s plays and Victorian fairy tales.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Bridgerton is back. The raciest costume drama on the box. And I'm going to be talking to a 16-year-old whose wardrobe is inspired by the programme. In fact, she's made 300 dresses herself inspired by the programme. And Formula One, a male-dominated sport, but the engineer-turned-presenter Bernie Collins is right in there.

And she's worked her way up through the ranks. She'll be bringing us up to speed, if you like, with all things racing and her book. Plus the incredibly talented writer Lottie Mills. Two years ago, she won the BBC Young Writers Award. Now she's published an entire book of the most extraordinary short stories and she'll be here to tell us all about it. Of course, you can get in touch with me in the usual way. If you'd like to comment on anything you hear in the programme, the number is 84844. You can also email me by going to our website. And the WhatsApp or voice note number is 03700 100 444. But first, it's something we spoke about on the programme yesterday. In fact, schools in England should not teach about gender

identity. That's according to new draft guidance from the government due to be published in full in the next half an hour. There's also a plan to ban sex education for under nines. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has said the new guidance would ensure children were not exposed to disturbing content. You may have heard the Education Secretary, Gillian Keegan, on this topic on the Today programme earlier this morning. Well, right now, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. So please do get in touch.

It's the usual way, the usual number, text number 84844. What are your thoughts on what you've heard? If you've got children in school, if you're a teacher yourself, if you're a young person, get in touch with me. You can email me via our website and the WhatsApp number once more 03700 100 444 or if you'd like to contact us on social media it's at BBC Women's Hour. All your opinions welcome. But to get the latest on this

I'm joined by the BBC education correspondent Elaine Dunkley. Morning Elaine. Hello, good morning. Let's talk about gender identity first. Why did the government decide new guidance was needed on this? So this is a very difficult subject area for teachers and pupils. It's also a relatively new area. I think the difficulties teachers face is some who teach relationship, sex and health education teach it outside of their core subjects and so they don't always feel equipped to take on these big sensitive areas. Now the guidance today strongly states that lessons about gender identity will be banned. It says the idea that children can adopt different pronouns and the concept that someone's gender may

be different to their biological sex is highly contested and teachers should stick to the facts of biological sex. Now this is a really tricky area and the guidance suggests that the teaching of gender identity is leading to confusion for some pupils about who they are. The Education Secretary Gillian Keegan says she's seen examples, evidence that children in primary schools have been taught about multiple genders with diagrams and it's been taught as a fact rather than a contested theory. Now the government says in light of the CAS review it's important that schools take a cautious approach to teaching about this sensitive topic and do not use any materials that present contested views as a fact including the view that gender is a spectrum.

Now this is in line with the department's gender questioning guidance which also takes a cautious approach to assist teachers ensuring that they're acting in the best interests of children. Now teachers have asked for clarity on this issue which the government says this provides but just because this guidance is out there it doesn't mean that those children who are struggling with their identity suddenly disappear and so what are teachers meant to do? Well children need trusted adults around them and sometimes they're not always able to talk to their parents about these issues and if they don't feel that they can talk to teachers where do they go what do they do and I think that's the concern for a lot of teachers pupils might start looking for answers on things like social media the other side of this and this is what the government's suggesting is that by

bringing in areas and ideas for discussion into the classroom does this encourage children to go down a certain path to start putting labels on themselves when actually they're simply going through what many young people go through, which is a journey of finding out and exploring who they are. So it's a really challenging area. Challenging and interesting. And I'm sure lots of you listening will have a thought or an opinion about it. So if you're a teacher or a parent or a young person, 84844 is the number to text. You mentioned there, Elaine, the gender questioning draft guidance that was released in schools in December. How will that fit into this?

Well, the gender questioning guidance issued in December is non-statutory, meaning it's non-compulsory for teachers to follow. But it is the DfE's guidance about best practice. The RSHE guidance is statutory. So in relation to gender, both are following a similar tone in the government's view on this. And this is a cautious approach. It's not about what they're taught. It's about how they should respond and support a young person and family who is questioning their gender identity. Some of the key points from that include informing parents, primary school children should not have different pronouns to their birth sex, biological sex and names need to be recorded on their register and so on. That guidance went out for consultation in December and it closed at the end of March and there's been no further update on that since. Now the full report comes out at 10.30 this morning,

what else is going to be covered in it? Well the relationship sex and health education curriculum was always due to be reviewed and that came, it was madeory in 2020, but there has been an increasing level of concern from MPs that disturbing material is being used and children are being exposed to graphic explicit content. And this review sets out to address some of those issues. So there'll be a ban on sex education for pupils under the age of nine, and it will be taught from a purely scientific standpoint. Currently, sex education isn't compulsory in primary and up until now it's been up to the discretion of heads if it's taught. Pupils do have lessons though on relationships and health education where they learn about things like friendships, families,

different parts of the body and puberty. Now many heads are saying they already teach this subject in an age appropriate way and material and resources are shared with parents so they'll know what will be taught and when and parents can withdraw children from sex education lessons if they will and so many head teachers today are saying this announcement won't make much difference because it's already happening. The guidance says in secondary schools children should not be given lessons on sexual acts until they're in year nine, so 13 years old. At that stage, they can be taught about consent, conception and STDs. There is a difficulty in terms of that, though. This is what teachers are saying, that some children have already been exposed to various things on social media, pornography. And by not talking to children until they're 13, are they receiving the right

education early enough to help them understand harmful sexual behaviour and to keep them safe? And a study by the government's Office of the Children's Commissioner found that the average age children first see pornography is 13, whilst almost a third of children have seen it by 11. And before the age of 18, 1810 had encountered pornography depicting coercive, degrading sex acts. And there's also a worry around young people getting STDs, concerns about the impact extreme pornography is having on relationships, particularly around the abuse of girls and young women. And so teachers are saying, are we leaving it too late to educate young people? Are we giving them that support and safety net? Because there are many challenging, complex things in a young

person's world now, mobile phones, and pornography and the teaching unions say issues such as domestic violence can affect children from a young age and it's irresponsible to shut these conversations out and so teaching unions are saying 13 might be too late at the end of UCS schools must be able to challenge widespread patterns like sexual bullying and homophobic bullying which can start as early as primary school and so it's getting that balance between the guidance as a framework and at times a need for flexibility and there's a there's a few more things that i want to come to in a second elaine that's going to be reflected in the report but i just want to read out a few messages that are coming through from our listeners someone said

it's up to parents to teach their children about sex not the school young people are often confused it doesn't mean they need to be taught about gender diversity. Someone else, Sarah's message to say as an ex-children's social worker, if schools move to worrying about breaking the law, if they teach under nines about sexual behavior, then children who are experiencing sexual harm will be less or unable to articulate this or alert adults around them. Not talking about it doesn't mean it's not happening. And Sarah in Glasgow says, as a young undergraduate, I agree that protecting children is important, allowing them to stay younger for longer without being exposed to complicated and complex ideas

that would be hard to process at such a young age. And awareness at some point is important, but not an excessively young age. 84844, keep your thoughts coming through. Now, there's going to be additional content in the report on suicide prevention for secondary school pupils that's right so there's new subject areas that include suicide prevention how to recognize when friends need help and the serious risk of viewing content that promotes self-harm there's a section on sexual harassment and sexual violence

which covers abusive behaviors and stalking as well as advice for teachers about how to address misogynistic online influencers and so as the world's changing as young people are sort of engaging with more things RSHE has to adapt to reflect that and I think that's why some of these issues have been included. Of course and what are teachers saying to you about this draft guidance? I think teachers feel as though in the majority and in the main they're doing a very good job. They do teach subjects that are age appropriate. I think what teachers would say is they do need more training

and actually there needs to be funding for that training because often they are picking up these subjects. Sometimes the science teacher will deliver RSHE courses and classes but sometimes it's teachers who have rshe courses and classes but sometimes it's teachers who have other core subjects and this is very much out of their specialism so i think teachers are calling for more training i think there's a sense that teachers feel as though they're in some way being blamed as though they're the ones that are giving these children explicit content when actually these children are finding it sometimes outside of school in family homes

when they're on their phones when in the bedrooms and they're then having to deal with these things in class. I think the difficulties for a lot of teachers is in a class there'll be different children different backgrounds with a different level of maturity and some of them will have been exposed to things that others haven't and so when questions are raised how do you tackle that when you're dealing with an entire class? And I think that's the challenge for a lot of teachers. And I think by saying subjects are banned,

in some ways that really ties a hand. And what's the consequence if they react to a question which they're not meant to answer because of the guidance? Yeah, we just had a message saying, I'm a 29-year-old trans man. I wish in school I knew more about gender identity

as it would have helped me find myself at a younger age. I think banning it is just making children who may feel this way and feel different in their identity as something wrong and unacceptable. So how long alone is this consultation period for and who's going to take part, who can take part? Well, the guidance will be subject to a nine-week consultation and the Department for Education says they want to hear from teaching unions, from those in the profession, from parents as well. And that will be a nine week consultation.

Thank you, Elaine. And we'll speak to you again towards the end of the programme with some more detail about the published report. But for now, thank you. Another message here. The biology of sex education should be started at an age appropriate way before the age of six when they're curious but not embarrassed this should be built on sensitively throughout their school life so that they can explore what's normal in a caring and supportive environment that text number once again 84844 you can also get in touch by email me emailing me via our website on to my next guest. Growing up in a small village in County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland,

working in the predominantly male heavy world of Formula One wasn't something Bernie Collins aspired to. But she'd go on to work as a performance engineer at McLaren Racing for names such as Jenson Button and as head of strategy at Aston Martin with world champion Sebastian Vettel. She's just written a new book, How to Win a Grand Prix, taking us behind the scenes of an F1 team to uncover what it takes to make it in Formula One. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me.

To be able to watch cars go around really quickly. Tenacity, I imagine? Yeah, a lot of that. A lot of confidence. You know, you have had to at least appear confident, even if at times you weren't confident about the decision that you were making. But yeah, and using your voice as best you can. We're in the perfect place to talk about this, aren't we? First of all, congratulations. Thank you.

Why did you want to write a book about your experience? Mainly a ghostwriter came to me and asked after having left the pit wall if I was willing to share the experience and I think from the inside in that F1 bubble having been in that F1 bubble for so long you sort of realise that there's there is that interest from the outside and then through the process of writing the book you sort of begin to learn what was normal to you that maybe isn't normal to the outside world. Like what? What was the one thing that jumps out? Like I think the work that goes into getting a car ready,

to getting a team ready for each of the sessions, the travelling and everything that goes along with that. You know, a lot of the analysis that we do afterwards, how we look really carefully at every element of what we've done during the weekend. And we're always trying to learn. We're always trying to make the next big improvement. And I think some of that is obvious from the outside in F1. But many people still look at it and see the driver and the car and don't necessarily see the massive team in the background. Yeah, and there's so much that goes into that performance of that driver and the car.

And I think there's going to be lots of people listening who love F1. There's going to be lots who won't have a clue and just watch it and think what is actually going on so we will get you to explain that and talk about all the sort of things that you've mentioned there being in the pit and whatnot but I want to take you back and because we mentioned there that you grew up in County Fermanagh you went to a tiny little primary school um was it an ambition of yours to work in F1 was that always there? not. I think you'd seen it on TV when you were little at home and you'd watched it. But again, you watched a driver in a car and I knew I was never going to be a driver and mainly all male drivers. So I hadn't even thought about working in motorsport, in automotive.

I think when you're in that very small school environment, it's very hard to imagine what an engineer does what a strategist does what you can do with the rest of your life so I didn't have that planned always working F1 I just kept choosing subjects that I really enjoyed you know that's why I chose maths and physics when I was at secondary school or whatever but it's really hard when you're that age to think about working life it's hard to think about working life, let alone what you do when you're away for the day. Well, even that, you know, your choice of maths and physics as well. Tell me about your parents. Did they encourage you to go down that route? Did you have those role models who were already working in STEM? Yeah, I think there wasn't actually anyone in

my family working in sort of STEM environment. There wasn't many people in the family above sort of our age of cousins that had gone to university, you know, necessarily. But there was that encouragement to work hard and just do things that you really enjoy and, you know, keep working hard at it. And when you have the ability to do well at school, it was, well, let's push this as far as you can and keep trying at it. So there was definitely encouragement there. And there was never any discouragement from doing engineering. You know, engineering scene is a very and it is a very meal dominated area. But there was none of the, oh, that's a man's job.

It was very much, you know, the encouragement to, you know, if you want to do it and you want to give it a try, then give it a try. And, you know, as long as you work hard at it, then you should be OK. And you were a natural tinkerer and problem solver weren't you? Yeah I think you know a lot of I guess growing up in a sort of rural environment there was a lot of sort of machinery or bits that needed help with outside or you know I guess a very like mend sort of mentality so there's a lot of trying to figure out how things worked and I I really enjoyed I guess at home I was probably really annoying at taking things apart and not necessarily putting them back together again just to figure out how they worked. And maybe that was always the young engineer in me, but maybe wasn't seen so much at the time.

So at what point did you realise that a career in F1 was possible? When did that opportunity arise? I think, well, realising that it was even something I'd really enjoy came quite late. It came when I was at uni actually. So I went to Queen's University in Belfast. I did a mechanical engineering degree. Halfway through that there's a body called the IMGE, so the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and they organise sort of single-seater race cars from different universities to race against each other and we went to Silverstone. We had an event and that was the first time I really thought that this mix of design work and racing and being at a track was really an interesting possibility and so from there on the sort of F1 dream sort of gradually became reality. But and you got a job with McLaren yeah on their graduating training

scheme but initially you weren't going to even apply for it? Yeah so initially McLaren yeah uh on their graduating training screen scheme but initially you weren't going to even apply for it yeah so initially McLaren had sent sort of um like an advertisement to a load of universities I guess and I think um maybe it's Northern Irish mentality maybe you know it's just whatever but when that advertisement come out the the initial process was, oh, I'm surely not going to get that. So I just didn't initially apply. And one of my lecturers, hey, you know, you come across a lot of great teachers and lecturers in your time. One of my lecturers, Joan R, actually said, why have you not applied? Like, definitely you should be applying. And so I was like, OK, well, I'll give it a go.

And then that's sort of led to where I am today. Isn't that interesting you'd sort of discounted yourself before you'd even tried yeah where did that come from thank goodness for that lecturer. Yeah exactly I think yeah thank goodness for that I think there's a lot of you know you know that it's going to be a very highly sought after job and there's always this little bit of doubt that you're good enough or whatever and actually what I've learned from that whole process is if you don't try then you're never going to know and actually applying for something even if you didn't get it is good experience and you can always ask why you didn't

get it and then improve yourself because of that so yeah like it's a real sliding doors moment doesn't it? Yeah because you did really did learn from that because you went on to take on lots of different roles within f1 so you decided you wanted to do more track more from design to track side yeah exactly explain the transition so i began um working in the design office which i think is how a lot of people begin because um in the body of people in a formula one team you know five six hundred people the majority of people work in design so that's the easiest job to get, if you like. Designing on what? So designing the car.

So I started designing suspension bits of the car and then I ended up in gearbox design, which I really loved being a gearbox design. But I really wanted this opportunity to go to the track, to see the cars racing, to be a bit more involved in sort of the final production. Because you design tiny bits of the car which you can see from afar if you like um so I worked really hard a lot of extra weekends and stuff to get to that track environment um so yeah it was this gradual shift of proving you were keen enough to do the weekends and proving you were good enough to be at the track um and then being given the opportunity in in 2014 with Jenson was great. Go on, what happened?

Yeah, it was just, so I did, I actually did three races, I think, in 2013 when Jenson's performance engineer was on paternity leave, which was just a great opportunity to have a go. And then he wanted to stay at home the next year and I got to follow the 2014 season. So I'm working with someone like Jenson who had a load of experience he'd had his world championship at that stage his race engineer was really experienced it was just like great learning environment where there was loads of

encouragement to learn and yeah really great as a young engineer. So you decided that you wanted to be in the thick of it? Yeah. From an industry you didn't even realise that you wanted to be in the thick of it yeah from an industry you didn't even realize that you wanted to be part of yeah I think like I joined in 09 and then it was 14 when I was racing so five years it took from joining to starting to race which is quite quick um but yeah just the more exposure and the more experience I got the more I realized it was really what I wanted to do and I wanted to make the most of the opportunity to be there. So, and then you became head of strategy for Force India. Yeah. What's that job? So strategy is if we have two racing cars in a team,

whereas performance engineer with McLaren is about making the car faster, making the driver faster. Strategy is about choosing which tyres you're going to run, choosing what pit stops you're going to do. So coming up with the plan for the race for both cars in the team, but then also reacting to all the other events.

So strategy is a lot about making decisions really quickly. So if you have an accident or if there is a safety car, if it starts to rain, like what is your next decision? So it's a lot of on the pit wall, fast decision making. And it's super important because ultimately it's about, are you going to come first? Will you be top of the podium? And so just explain to people who don't fully understand each team has two drivers. How does it work? Do you favour one driver over the other? What's the

overall aim of the race? Yeah, so each team has two drivers. And the interesting thing with Formula One compared to other sports is each driver wants to beat the driver next to them. So within the team, you've got these two people who want to beat each other and want to be the best. But ultimately, as a team player, as a strategist, as any of the members of the team, you're trying to get the best team results of both drivers as high up the order as you can. Now, there are situations where, you know, it looks like one driver will finish better than the other, or it looks like one driver has a better chance than the other. So you do try and prioritise how you're trying to get your best position,

but it might not necessarily be the same driver each week depending on who's driving for your team. And how does communication work then if you're making these split-second decisions whilst the race is going on? Yeah, so generally for each team, there's a race engineer that speaks to the driver. They're the only people that speak to the driver. And we're on the pit wall with headsets on,

a bit like we are now, and an intercom that we communicate to that person to make the pit stop call. And we talk to the pit crew in the garage to get them ready and come out into the pit lane with all the tyres. And we're also linked back to what we call mission control in the factory.

So we might be in Australia and but the factory in Silverstone has still got a load of people set up and they're looking at a lot of data that we're talking to all the time. Is it a highly stressful environment? Yeah it is yeah. So how do you channel like how do you thrive off that? I think you need to you need to drive off the adrenaline of you know once you get on the pit wall and you put that headset on like that is your pressure environment and you're in that for the next hour and a half two hours whatever it is but you've got to love it you've got to love making the decisions and actually one of the things I love the most was you have this massive influence on the outcome of the race like

the decisions that you make yes really affect the. But that's huge because there's so much that has gone into that moment. Yeah. Like 300 people working on the design of the car, keeping the safety of the driver, the amount of money that there is in F1, behind F1. I mean, obviously you've learned to thrive and you know the industry inside out, which is why you got to that point.

But there must have been times when it's gone wrong. Yeah, and I think that is the hardest time. You know, there must have been times when it's gone wrong yeah and I think that is the hardest time you know there have been definitely times and a few of them we discuss in the book but there have been times where you made a decision for what you think are the right reasons and for whatever reason it doesn't work out or you know the weather's not quite what you expect or you make a mistake and that is always the hardest one for me to deal with personally, to get off the pit wall, knowing that you've not had the best race you could have and walk back through the garage of mechanics

who have all worked, you know, night and day to get the car out there and then the final result is disappointing for everyone. That's always the hardest one. And I find, I guess, a little bit of a female, a little bit of my personality, That's the hardest to recover from. Well, how is it being pretty much probably, you know, this is the solo woman in these spaces? Yeah. So I think, you know, in each team, engineering is very poorly represented as females, I think. It's getting better. But within each team, there's sort of for a long time I was the only female on our pit wall.

There's now four or five teams that have females on the pit wall. So it is definitely improving. There's advantages and disadvantages, you know, and the running joke is the queue for the bathroom is always quite good when you're the only female there. But when I speak on the pit wall, when I speak for once, yeah, for once. Yeah. When I speak on the intercom my voice really stands out nobody's ever had to ask who said that so that's I thought was always quite an advantage I do need to be aware that you know when we make the mistakes I'll carry that mistake mentally for longer than the guys next to me will so there's definitely things I've had to be aware of in my own personality over and above the guys I'm next

to. I've got to ask because Formula One has been in the news because of allegations of inappropriate behaviour by Red Bull team principal Christian Horner by female employees always denied the claims and he was cleared after an internal investigation we're not going to talk specifically about that case or him but it is important to ask what it's like to be a woman in such a male dominated industry. Yeah. So I think like, you know, I've worked, I've only worked for two teams, worked for McLaren and Aston. And I've always felt really supported within both those teams. I felt like, you know, to get to the head of race strategy role, I was given at Force India when they were a very small team.

But I've always been promoted when I thought I was promoted. I always got the roles because I was good enough at the roles or I you know deserved the roles so it was never in either way I wasn't ever promoted because they needed to show a female on the pit wall or I never felt like I missed out on the opportunity because I was a female so I felt quite fairly treated and throughout my career and even when I joined you know the first year in McLaren in the design office, the support from much, much older guys that have been in F1 for a very long time was huge. You know, they just, they needed everyone in the office to succeed. So that's,

that's definitely not my story. You know, the support I had was really, really great. How many air miles have you got in your passport? I mean, it's a lifestyle. Yeah, it is a lifestyle. One that you're used to now yeah glamorous bits of it are glamorous but there's a lot of um packing a suitcase for only the one night that you're going to be fit to go out and the other days it's all team kit and do you pack the apparently jensen button gave you all pillows well so sebastian vettel gave us all pillows at one point. Get the right name. What a generous man. Yeah, I know.

Just because we had a hotel at one point where the pillows were really bad and everyone was complaining about their back and he just thought, oh, maybe he just thought he was fed up listening to everyone complaining and he could find a way around it. But yeah, really kind.

Well, you said that your voice is very distinct and now you're working as a commentator and you've got your book coming out next week. So you really are using your voice. So continue continue to use it and you are a role model for young women so thank you Bernie thank you for having me yeah the book her book how to win a Grand Prix is out on the 23rd of May thanks for popping in um Laura's message in to say what a great interview I've never been interested in motor racing fascinating there you go tick job done Bernie thank you Laura um 84844 is the number to text

you can get in touch with anything you hear on the program that you'd like to comment on now yesterday senior coroner martin fleming used a warning after a woman was fatally strangled or choked by her boyfriend during sex he described the practice of choking as dangerous and said it all too often ends in fatal consequences. Georgia Brooke was 26 when she died in 2022. Forensic pathologist Chris Johnson told the inquest that pressure on Miss Brooke's neck would have had to have been sustained

for a period of time after she lost consciousness for her to die. Her boyfriend, Luke Cannon, accompanied her to hospital but fled before the police could speak to him. He was later found dead. We've talked about this subject recently on Woman's Hour because research from the US found that 21% of women have been choked during sex. Fiona McKenzie is the leader of the We Can't Consent to This campaign, which was formed as a response to the increasing number of women and girls killed and injured in violence that is claimed to be consensual.

She's now at the Other Half think tank and she joins us this morning to talk about this. Good morning and welcome to Women's Health, Fiona. Why is this coroner's statement significant? I think it's a recognition that the choking or strangulation, as it should properly be called, is more and more commonly used in the killing of women and more and more commonly used in the excuse of killing of women. And I think the coroner is attempting to tell people that actually strangulation is dangerous and fatal. And, you know, I have to say I read this this morning and it's just it's utterly it's just devastating to hear what was done to Georgia. She was, as you say, killed in a serious, sustained act of violence, potentially with a ligature.

These details are just horrific. The level of harm and violence that her partner, who died, had subjected to her, you cannot consent to that. And I genuinely think if he had survived, he would have been prosecuted for murder, potentially facing a whole life order as a result of this, because as a result of our campaigning, we successfully managed to get the law to change so that, you know, it is much more

likely that men who do this to women will be prosecuted for murder, and it is much less likely they'll be successful in claiming that it was all just an accident, that it was all her fault for consenting to it. But, you know, the headlines this morning are devastating, and I just feel for Georgia's family to see that it's been presented as something that she had consented to is just it's it's I think it's disgraceful that we are pushing it back on her rather than pushing on him. Well, it's desperately sad, isn't it? I mean, statements from the couple's friends read to the court told how the pair had an experimental sexual relationship. And we've talked about this previously on woman's hour what are we talking about though when we talk about choking we're talking about we're talking about strangulation i mean the the the rebranding of strangulation is choking through porn i mean porn is the primary

way that men are coached in this um but young women tell us that it's instagram tech talk it's mainstream social media that has coached them that this is a normal thing to expect. It's an expression of passion. It can be done safely to you as a young woman. It's very, very much a sex act. It's something that's done by males to females. And it's almost impossible for, you know, talking about sex education this morning, almost impossible for sex educators to push back on that because it is everywhere. And we, you know, the online safety bill coming in we had hoped that tech companies would be beginning to think about removing this type of content we've had a number of goals at the mainstream platforms and it's all

crept back on you know they are incapable of um of taking this pro-choking normalization content off their platforms um so i you know i must say you, this is strangulation and there's no mistaking the fact that the men who do this to women, men who end up in courts, know that these are serious acts of violence. They are not needing safety lessons. They absolutely know that these are terrible, terrible acts of violence that they're doing. How common is it for consensual choking to be used as a defence in cases of assault and murder? So in the research I did in the lead up to the law change in 2021, I found hundreds of criminal cases. So there were 70 women killed in, again, terrible acts of violence and hundreds of criminal cases where men had subjected women to serious assaults,

some of them fatal, and were then claiming that the woman had consented. And in every case where a woman has survived and was able to take part in a court case she said I didn't consent to this this wasn't something that I consented to but these men who often had histories like Georgia Briggs partner of abuse escalating abuse against their partner and were domestic abusers had serious acts of you know serious convictions for other violence against women so again you know we must push this away from the idea that this is just a sex act. It is a serious act of violence, which porn has just melted everyone's brains on this to the extent that it is now viewed by young women as being normal to receive this. And I...

Go on, please. Yeah, sorry. Just in this case, both Georgia Brooke and Luke Cannon died. So despite women being much more likely to suffer the consequences of choking as a practice of strangulation, men can obviously be deeply affected too. So what should we be saying to boys and men about choking? So it's a great question.

So five years ago, we launched a huge media campaign. The BBC were involved around the prevalence of strangulation and in sex and how it would be normalised. And the only thing that we managed to change is that you're much more likely, if you report this to the police, you'll get a good response. I think that's the, you know, that's a push that we've managed to win. I think it's got worse for young women. I don't think men have yet really responded to this.

And again, I don't think that men think that this is just, you know, like it's a sex act and actually, you know, I didn't know that it was dangerous. I think we're in this desperate position as a society where porn, which should be criminal for these for these porn companies huge porn industry organizations to push on us we're in a desperate situation where men are saying that and are thinking they can get away with doing it to their female partners that it is normal um and i i think the government's porn review which is is reporting later this year is is the

route where we always we say this is a crisis. This is so destructive to relationships, to women. Strangulation is intrinsically harmful, as I'm sure you've heard previously. It is something that cannot be done safely. And the impacts on women like brain damage and miscarriage and stroke and movement disorders and language disorders, these are long-ranging impacts that can affect women decades later. So we need a huge push from government on this, pushback against poor normalising this, and some way...

And the Zoom has just frozen there, sadly. We can see whether we can get you back, Fiona McKenzie. Otherwise, 84844 is the number to text. We heard from Fiona McKenzie on the subject of the death of Georgia Brooke

we need to make clear it's not possible to speculate on the outcome of a trial involving her partner as he has died lots of you

getting in touch about various things you're hearing another one here about the interview with Bernie Collins just now so many more women

are getting involved in Formula One with inspiration from role models like Bernie Collins and Susie Wolfe and it's great to have Lewis Hamilton use his international platform to support widening participation in the sport if you'd like to get in touch 84844. Now are you ready for the return of this? It's the theme music from Bridgerton. Season three hits our screens today and my next guest is certainly excited for it.

That's 16-year-old Eleanor Shendry from North Yorkshire who's gone viral on social media after posting pictures of herself wearing handmade historical outfits looking like a character straight out the series. Inspired by looks from the Tudors and Victorians to the modern TV show, Eleanor has made over 300 dresses,

some of which have taken months to complete. Eleanor, I am so pleased that you could have joined me today to speak to me on Woman's Hour. I'm slightly disappointed you're in just a nice jumper, Eleanor. Where's your outfit? Oh, I know. I'm filming this from school at the moment, so I can't, it's not practical to bring it bring it have you had to sneak out of a class no I've got exam week so I'm sort of like supposed to be revising right now but you know this is obviously more important this is important we're going to talk about this I mean you're 16 years old you've made 300 of these outfits when do you do when do you have the time most we talk a lot about teenagers being on their phones and here you are in front of your sewing machine um I think you know most of when I do it is in the holidays when you know after school every day I'm doing it you know I just really I make time to do it

I you know I'm always definitely a teenager who's on my phone a lot but mostly I'd like to think that I try and make time to do my hobbies and to do sewing so where did how did you get into it so my grandmother was an art and textiles teacher and she taught me how to sew when I was eight and I started sort of making clothes for like my dolls that I had and then as I got a bit older when I was 12 I started like making clothes for myself and then during lockdown it kind of turned into this passion for making historical costumes. I've always had a massive interest in history. And so for me, I just wanted to kind of expand on that into making historical costumes.

And it just kind of has gone from there for the last four years. Talk me through the process. Where do you get the materials from? So I try and use a lot of recycled materials such as like curtains, tablecloths, I often buy like materials online sometimes I go to fabric shops people give me things I've had things from theatre companies which is just so lovely all sorts of places honestly I try and be really sustainable with it because i think that's important especially when you've got so many costumes um but yeah just kind of everywhere i can get them and you wear these out i do i wear them as much as i can um when it's practical so i wear them to visit historic houses castles um reenactment reenact so do people think you're

part of the reenactment yeah usually i usually get do you work here sometimes i get asked things like where the toilet is but most people ask about the costume so tell me about one of the dresses and where you've worn it describe something to me um so i think oh so i wore last year i went down to heber castle in kent I wore a blue Tudor gown. And I think that's definitely one of my favourites. It was made out of a taffeta fabric. And, you know, I tried to use recycled materials in it, things that I'd used on other costumes, lots of beads. And it's kind of got long fur sleeves and it's blue and yellow.

And that's definitely one of my favorites and how do you feel when you wear them oh I don't know because often when you put on different outfits you know it makes you stand a different way it makes you feel embody a different energy so how do you feel when you're wearing these historical gowns because it's a lot of material it is it's definitely very heavy you sort of have to move a bit differently when you're like in a corset and you know I wouldn't I don't want to say that they're restrictive because I've not always found that but you know you've got to be very conscious of your surroundings and quite spatially aware especially when you've got a hoop skirt on but yeah I find them quite comfortable

but they definitely feel different than normal clothes you can't just slouch about you you have to you know really kind of stand up and hold yourself differently um and you want you said you're interested in history tell me about you want to tell the stories of forgotten women through these dresses don't you tell me more so I've always you know had a great interest in history and I think especially women's history is so often like underrepresented and not talked about enough and through my social media I like to tell the stories of women I also think well you know like the queens of England I talk about a lot and I write things about them because I just think they're such fascinating women who just aren't covered to the same extent and I've always found

that clothes are such an important part of women's stories. You know, they're an everyday thing. Women have such huge influence over fashion. And often in the past, you know, when looking at portraits, women are communicating through their clothes. They're communicating through what they're wearing. It means something. And I think, you know, often that's forgotten. It's not talked about. And I really think it should be.

And you're going to continue doing this? Do you think this is what your passion is going to be? Are you going to enter into the world of fashion or history as a career or maybe both? Maybe both. I mean I think for now my thought is I'd quite like to do history but I think history of fashion and history of art will always be something that will come into my interest in history because it is so integral to the stories of people. It's something maybe you don't think about, but clothes are such an everyday item. They mean so much. And I think that, you know, part of my interest in history definitely will always be in, you know, the social history behind the clothes.

And what's the reaction been on social media to your dresses and your creations? 300 of them. Generally very positive things I often get things like oh I wish we could wear these every day and I'm like I know me too I wish it was socially acceptable to wear these every day maybe maybe I'll make it that way I don't know but and then people often you know ask me like about how I made them. It's a generally really positive reaction to it, I would say. And Bridgerton's back on our screens tonight for Series 3. Are you going to be watching?

Are you going to be taking inspiration from this new series? Oh, absolutely. I'm very excited for Bridgerton to come out. I mean, I love the costumes in Bridgerton. I just think they're so creative and just incredibly unique. And I think they're going to make such an impact on the future of historical television programmes. And I've always found that was so wonderful about Bridgerton. Thank you very much for taking the time out. You can get back to revising now, Eleanor. What's the next exam? Oh, I've got religious studies this afternoon. Oh, this afternoon. Good luck. I'm sure you'll be great.

Thank you, Eleanor, for talking to me. Eleanor Shendry there, who's created 300 of these dresses. What were you doing at 16? That's the question. 84844 is the number to text now. From one very talented young woman to another. Lottie Mills won the BBC Young Writers Award in 2020 for her short story, The Changeling. It will now feature in her debut book, Monstrum, alongside a collection of modern fairy tales telling the experiences of characters excluded and othered by their societies.

Lottie has cerebral palsy and hopes the book will challenge the representation of disability in fiction. She says, growing up with a disability, I always understood myself through stories, Greek mythology and British folklore, Shakespeare's plays and Victorian fairy tales. I'm delighted in the unique power of outsiders. Well, I spoke to Lottie two years ago on Woman's Hour after she signed this book deal. She was just 20 then. And now on the day of its release, I am delighted to say, Lottie, welcome back to Woman's Hour. Hello, thank you so much for having me again. Oh, absolutely my pleasure. I mean, I was so inspired by The Changeling,

because you are a magnificent writer. You said that that fell out of your fingertips onto the page in one fast, inspired sitting. So how did writing a book compare? Yeah, it was interesting, actually, because obviously it's a collection of all different short stories. Some of them, I was very lucky. And it was very much that experience of it almost felt like it was coming from somewhere outside myself. And it was very speedy. Others were a bit more of a struggle. And obviously, this was my first

experience as well of editing something for publication. And then like sheer number of steps that something has to go through before it's ready. mean you'll know but it was kind of almost a bit of a shock to me that there was yes so much to do and so many people involved to get this thing ready so it was it was really privileged insight into that. Yeah learning curve. The title of the book Monstrum what does it mean? Yeah so Monstrum is a Latin word and obviously you'll be able to hear it's where we get the word monster from. But also in the ancient world, that same word was used to refer both to like a mythical monster or a magical being, but also someone with a disability or any kind of visible difference.

And when I found out, I read that in an article somewhere, and that just kind of fascinated me. And it was a real light bulb moment for my collection and what the sort of overarching theme was going to be. Because obviously, in one sense, that's quite horrible and othering that disability was so linked to monstrousness. But also, I thought maybe there's something you can do with that to turn it on its head a bit and to see disability and celebrate it as this slightly, you know, having this mythic history and this really rich sort of fairy tale imagery to it and a unique power in that sense. You know, it's had such an influence on people and the way they think and on literature. So I wanted to take that very othering term and see if I could use it in a more positive way. What do you want readers

to take from your writing? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I think hopefully I'd love them to enjoy it in the sense of the craft and, you know, to feel immersed. But also for people who maybe haven't experienced disability, I would love them to hopefully see a bit of a window into experience they haven't had, maybe think a bit about how we approach outsiders. One of the things I think about a lot is what our kind of knee-jerk response is almost to things that we don't understand

and how that's not necessarily the defining thing about you what you do next and where you go from that and that journey is the most important thing so I'd love for people to see that and then for people who like me have experienced either disability or just feeling like an outsider in any sense. I hope maybe there might be at least one of the stories that, you know, really hits a chord with them and helps them feel seen because that's been so important for me. We're going to hear a reading from one of the stories, The Bear Children. Lottie, can you tell us about this excerpt, what we're going to hear? Yeah, so this excerpt, The Bear Children, concerns a young girl who's disabled, but she's been raised entirely in isolation with her father on an island who is also disabled.

And so obviously her perception of what's normal and what's not normal is a bit different to most of us. And in this excerpt, she's encountering people from our world for the first time and their expectations. A woman sits before her, an official woman in a flouncy blouse, wearing a wristwatch and an uncomprehending smile. Not a bear child, the little girl notes, an ordinary person. Who looks after you, the woman asks. That one is easy, my papa. Even to say the word makes a small, unlikely smile emerge on her face.

But the woman's face crumbles into worry. And the things your papa can't do, the things he struggles with, who does them? The little girl does not understand. She frowns. Papa can do everything, she says. Now, it's quite important for us to know. Has your father ever spoken to you about your condition? About what it is that's wrong with you?

The child does not understand. Her dark brows furrow. Her spastic mouth puckers. And when she speaks, it is with open confusion. Nothing's wrong with me, she says. I want to pick up on that last phrase. Nothing is wrong. Nothing is wrong with me.

That's something you've said yes yeah it was um and I wasn't it's quite funny because when I said it in real life I wasn't trying to make a point or be clever or anything I was dropping my sister off at the airport very early in the morning and I was sort of very tired and out of it and um I was only about 15 and a man approached me and opened the conversation with what's wrong with you. And I was genuinely very confused and taken aback. And I said, nothing's wrong. Yeah.

Kind of instinctively because I was just living my life and doing things. And then obviously it became clear he had lots of ideas about how I could fix my disability. And that's what he wanted to talk about. And how do you react to that? You're smiling. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a little bit absurd. It was kind of in one sense, it's very depressing,

but I think it's one of those things that, you know, people say you've got to laugh sometimes because it was so outlandish. But it really was, obviously, I live most of my life surrounded by all of my amazing friends and family who are very familiar with me. But it really took me aback to realise that for so many people that is still the perception that if you're different or if you live your life in a different way because you've got a disability, that means that something is

wrong and something needs to be fixed. And I think that's just so different from how I think about it. It's just worlds apart. And I love that from this extract in The Bear that she knows nothing else. Her world is just her world. Yes. And her father's world. It's the rest of the world that is different. Yeah, I wanted to take there's this idea of the social model of disability, which is the idea that it's not that there's something wrong with people, it's the rest of the world that is different yeah I wanted to take there's this idea of the social model of disability which is the idea that it's not that there's something wrong with people it's the environment around them that disables them and although it's sometimes more complicated and more nuanced than that um I wanted to take that in a literal sense to say well if you raised someone disabled in a world where they were the norm if you like and where everything was equipped for them theoretically there would be nothing they couldn't do. And it would be kind of completely

empowering. So I wanted to contrast that with our world. Can I ask you about your choice of words in that extract as well? Because you say her spastic mouth puckers. Yeah, and that was it was obviously it's because I have cerebral palsy. And obviously, it's very linked to that specific condition. And it was a word we talked about a lot because when I first wrote the story I just put it in because that's the adjective you know for how I move and how I talk but also I am very aware that sadly it's become used as a bit of a slur and an insult and it's quite a painful word for a lot of people including including me you know I've got my own history with it but again a bit like with the word monstrum, it was kind of something I wanted to reclaim.

It's, you know, that is the way her body moves. And I talk a lot in the story and do a lot of description of kind of the beauty of the unevenness of their movements, the way that they move kind of idiosyncratically and different from, you know, how most people go about in the world. And I wanted to kind of lend a sort of poetry to that

and hopefully turn that quality of tightness or of spasticness into something beautiful and to be celebrated. I want to know about the inspiration behind all this because they are incredibly beautiful fairy tales that take us into these other worlds. And I want to know how much of what you're doing at university inspired the stories and also the time. When did you find the time to write these? Yeah, well, I, yeah, university was a huge, most of the book was kind of written or planned during

the three years that I was studying English literature. And it fed in hugely, like I was doing an academic project on changelings. And then at the same time, I kind of processed it in this dual way of also going, oh, that's given me a story idea. And, you know, there were references, like I mentioned in my letter, there were references to Shakespeare and to, you know, grim fairy tales and all of these things that I was studying. And my routine at university was I'm very much a night owl. And all of these stories were pretty much written like in my bed, you know, at night time. And but at university, I'm very much a night owl and all of these stories were pretty much written like in my bed you know at night time and um but at university I would often go down do my day of work and then at about 10 p.m go down to the Newnham College library which is beautiful spooky Victorian

environment and stay there until it closed at about two in the morning and it was this very um I mean obviously I was quite tired but it was this very evocative environment to write in. It comes through the writing. It's nice to hear that that's what was going on, that that's actually where you were writing. And the violence struck me as well. Yes, yeah, it's kind of a lot of people are quite surprised, I think, when they read the stories, because I'm, you know, normally quite a positive person. Yeah, and they're quite dark. Yeah. Yes, yeah, a lot of them are quite dark. And I think that's important. One of the things I loved about a short story collection is it allows you to be so multifaceted, you know, so many different tones and different approaches. And I think for me, it's really important to capture that darkness because it's, you know,

being an outsider in any sense is a complicated experience. And there often is a lot of violence and rejection and very dark stuff as well as all of the joy and the beauty so it was important to me to try and show both um i'm glad you mentioned the grim fairy tales because that's what came to mind when i was reading them i just thought these are modern day magical very dark very urgent fairy tales um and the one that really struck me was um the selkie you mix a sea creature myth with a power imbalance in a modern romantic relationship. I mean, how you managed to do it and it just it hit me in the stomach in such a way. And I thought, how did you empathize with that woman?

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was really again, because selkie myths were something I came across. And almost always they involve someone being trapped in a relationship unable to return to the sea where they belong and i thought it's so interesting that hundreds and hundreds of variations of that story have all revolved back to that power imbalance and how that's clearly struck a chord with women over the centuries all of these ideas of transformation or of being trapped and i think particularly for me as well i'm very conscious of because with selkies it's their their skin that's taken away from them and I'm very conscious that I also depend on material things and the help of others to help me be independent

and have freedom like my wheelchair and you know all sorts of things um and so yeah I really found empathy for her through that sense and I thought that would be a brilliant myth to sort of make nods to in that relationship. Lottie Mills, I think you're incredibly talented. I want to congratulate you on Monstrum coming out today. Yes, out today. You're so gifted and I can't wait to see what happens to you next in your career. And I'm sure you'll be back to talk to us again. Thank you so much.

Thank you. I'm joined again now by Elaine Dunkley, BBC education correspondent who's been looking at the draft guidance for schools on sex and relationships education,

which was just published. So Elaine, thoughts having done a speed read, please. 44 pages has just landed. So let's have a quick look at what's new in the updated curriculum. Introduction of age limits to ensure children aren't being taught about sensitive and complex subjects before they are ready to fully understand them.

The government says it's also making clear that the concept of gender identity, the sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male or female or a number of other categories, is highly contested and should not be taught. And it says this is in line with the cautious approach taken in our guidance on gender questioning children. The guidance also contains a new section on transparency with parents, making it absolutely clear that parents have a legal right to know what their children are being taught in RSHE and can request to see teaching materials. There are a number of other categories which are also new, which I think we talked about. Suicide prevention, loneliness, the prevalence of deep fakes and so there's a huge range of new things in there probably about 12 different subjects the dangers of vaping.

There's a question here which says do schools have to follow the guidance? The guidance will be statutory which means schools must follow it unless there are exceptional circumstances. So what happens now? So this is going to go out for consultation now. And there's going to be a period where people can get in touch and to find out whether to have a look at the various drafts of this. And that consultation is going to last for nine weeks. Elaine, thank you for speed reading the 44 pages for us. Thank you. Here are some of your views and concerns. Lots of've been getting in touch about this um throughout the hour emily says

school is there to educate on subjects not to deal with beliefs and issues arising from elsewhere children should be taught about what's right and wrong to speak to people that are close to them and to avoid listening to social media we should be removing the content they're exposed to not trying to keep up and teaching them about it. Sue said, to ban sex education for under nines is extremely irresponsible. Some girls start periods at nine. All children may be exposed to sexual predators. All children need to understand and recognise and have time to process information about puberty before it starts.

Why is ignorance considered protective? And Rosie from Bristol writes, not being allowed to talk about gender to protect children from what they might be is basically a new version of Section 28. I'm trans. I was trans as a kid in the 90s and it harmed me to not know trans people existed or have it talked about and accepted at school. It ruined the first part of my adult life. The government is using sex and gender as a petty political football to distract us from the cost of living and the mess they made in cutting our services.

These policies will ruin lives. Thank you for getting in touch and taking part. If you did today, tomorrow I'm going to be speaking to Amanda Nell-Yu, director of the film Tiger Stripes, which has been described as mean girls meets body horror with a sparkling of Asian folklore. Do join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Look at this. I found a secret room and it's behind a trap door. We're looking for someone who controls one of the largest gangs of people smugglers. He calls himself Scorpion. The top one, impossible you can't find them. His gang has made millions from people coming to the UK in small boats. This feels so cold. So cold, I want to die.

Finding him won't be easy and it will be dangerous. Oh, we need to get out of here. So, get in the car. I'm Sue Mitchell and this is Intrigue, to catch a scorpion from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.