Woman's Hour - Women in Iran, Chloé Zhou, The Bar Council, Lesley Sharp

Episode Date: January 9, 2026

Iran has been in the news, with protests building over the last 13 days. Commentators say that what started as a protest about the economy has now turned into a call for regime change, and for women's rights. There are reports that young women are fearlessly taking to the streets, flouting compulsory hijab rules and risking arrest. Anita Rani talks to the BBC's Global Women's reporter Feranak Amidi, an Iranian who lived there until she was 30, and has been following events closely. Chloé Zhao is only the second woman and first woman of colour to win an Oscar for Best Director. She returns with one of the year’s most anticipated films: Hamnet. Adapted from Maggie O’Farrell’s bestselling novel, it reimagines the lives of Anne Hathaway and William Shakespeare, exploring how the loss of their 11-year-old son Hamnet shaped their marriage and inspired Hamlet. Chloe co-wrote and directed the film and speaks to Anita.Kirsty Brimelow KC has been appointed Chair of the Bar Council and is the first to lead an entirely female senior leadership team. A specialist in human rights, criminal and public law, she takes on the role of representing around 18,000 practicing barristers in England and Wales. Anita asks about her plans for the role.ITV’s compelling action-aviation drama Red Eye is back for a second series with the actor Lesley Sharp playing the cool-headed MI5 boss, Madeleine Delaney. In this new conspiracy, Madeleine is flying in a small plane from Washington DC when she receives a message that there’s a bomb on board which will be detonated if certain conditions aren’t met. Lesley speaks to Anita about that role, and her acting career to date, including the new film Pillion.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I can tell you that the food programme will definitely be fed very well in those DESE pubs. But on to Woman's Hour, a roll call of very impressive women on today. Actor Leslie Sharp will be here to tell us about series two of the gripping ITV spy thriller Red Eye and a beautiful new film called Pillion. And I might have to fan girl over her being in Rita Sue and Bob 2. Kirstie Brimolo has just got the top job at the Bar Council,

representing 18,000 barristers in England and Wales. We'll be finding out what she has on her plate for the next year and just what it takes to get to where she is. And Oscar-winning director, Chloe Zhao, popped in to talk to me about her extraordinary new film, Hamnet, starring Jesse Buckley and Paul Mescal, based on Maggio Farrell's book, who co-wrote the screenplay with Chloe. If you follow us on Instagram, it's at BBC Woman's Out, if you don't already, you may have seen a clip of the interview where Chloe talks to me about bonding with Jesse Buckley.

Jesse messaged her late one night asking how she was. And in that moment, as a woman, she could have easily just said, I'm fine. I'm sure lots of us can relate to that. But what she actually said was, I'm not okay. And it became a bonding moment that brought the two women closer. One of the first times, Chloe said, she'd said to someone, I'm not okay. And Jesse was there for her. understandably, it formed a strong connection between them.

So this morning I'd like to ask you, when and if this has happened to you? A moment of crisis when another woman has stepped forward and been there for you, rescued you, if you like. And what did it do for your relationship? It may have been someone you hardly knew or someone you wouldn't have expected. What moment in your life was it and how close did you become?

You can get in touch with me in the normal way, the text number 84844. You can email us through our website or you can WhatsApp me or even voice note me on 0700-100-444. That text number once again is 84844. But first, let's turn our attention to what's happening in Iran. There have been more protests building up increasingly over the last 13 days. Commentators say that what started as a protest about the economy has now turned into a call for regime change and for women. rights. There are reports that young women are fearlessly taking to the streets, flouting compulsory

hijab rules and risking arrest. Well, we can talk to the BBC's global women's reporter, Faranak, Medi, an Iranian, who lived there until she was 30 and has been following events very closely and often talks to us about what's happening in Iran. Faranak, very good morning. Before we talk specifically about what's happening to women, remind us what's been happening over the last 13 nights. started in the Grand Bazaar of Tehran, they were initially a reaction to the plummeting value of Rihal against the dollar and also the inflation, which is over 50%. Living conditions are terrible in Iran. So initially it started from the Grand Bazaar. And the Grand Bazaar is the traditional

traders center. They have always been the backbone of support for the regime. They're more conservative, more religious. And throughout these years that protests have been happening sporadically in Iran, the Bozar had never gone on strike. But they went on strike in the 1979 revolution and also in the constitutional revolution some hundred more over 100 years ago. And they can bring about a lot of change. And this is exactly what happened this time around. They went on strike. And initially, Everyone was dubbing these protests as the cost of living crisis protest. But in a matter of really just half a day, 12 hours, things started changing. What we are seeing right now on the streets is that 13 days consecutively, people have been on the streets.

There has been brutality up until today. what we can confirm by human rights organizations is that 45 protesters so far have been killed, eight of them children, hundreds have been injured, and thousands, over 2,000 people have been arrested. Since last night, because last night was a call to action from the son of the late Shah, or late king of Iran,

who was toppled by the Islamic Revolution in 1979 to tick to the streets and he wanted to basically weigh out his political weight in the country and millions took to the streets. But at the same time, what happened was a complete shutdown of internet and phone lines. I've been trying to call my family inside Iran

since early this morning and I can't. It's impossible. So we know that people went on the streets. This morning, sporadic images, footage is coming out from inside Iran, that protesters have been killed. So lots of information now and lots to get into. Let's start with what you've just said about the comms blackout. And obviously it's very personal for you because you can't actually contact your own family. How concerning is that?

It's very concerning, Anitape, because. the regime has a record of doing this before in 2019 in November of 2019, which is dubbed a bloody November. They shut down the internet and gunned down 1,500 protesters in one night. So it is very, very worrying. Amnesty International have put a statement out calling it a breach of human rights, a crime against human rights. So it is very, very worrying.

And from what we are seeing right now, images slowly coming out with the internet being shut down. It's very slow the information we're getting from inside Iran. But what we are seeing is that protesters have been shot. So it is very worrying. Do we need know any more information? At the moment, it's very, very sketchy. It's very, very difficult to confirm. How many?

Information, yes. But I'm sure journalists, especially in the BBC Persian service, they are working nonstop to confirm data and information. Now, as I mentioned, and you've talked about, these protests started as demonstrations about the economy really significant that they started in the Grand Bazaar in Tehran. But they've changed since then over the last 13 days, especially when it comes to women. So what happened? How did momentum pick up? And how have the women's movement in Iran got involved? It is a very interesting time to look at Iran, historic political moment really.

So what we saw, it started from the Grand Basar, and it did have a very masculine look, the protest, but it soon changed. And what we are seeing on the streets right now and what we are hearing, people don't have any demands from this state. So they're not saying, oh, you know, release political prisoners, stop executions, or make our lives. living standards better. No, they are chanting death to the dictator, death to Ali Khomeini himself, the leader of the state. A lot of people, the monarchists, are saying long live the king, they are looked, they want to have the son of the king back and him as the sovereign and head of state. And there are people who are saying they want the return of Pahlavi, but not necessarily in the capacity of a king or a sole political leader. In the middle of all of this,

you have the women as well. The women's role in protests in Iran changed very rapidly after the woman life freedom protest that started, that happened three years ago after the death of Mahza, I mean, a 22-year-old and police custody. Because the women and their demands were on the forefront of those, that uprising. And ever since, you see that women are being very, very active in protest. They didn't used to be as active. They are not on the sidelines anymore. A lot of the videos that are coming out from Iran that are being filmed are being filmed by women.

You hear the voice of the woman telling you this is this date. This is what is happening. This is this street. I mean, and I've seen those. They're on my feeds as well. I saw one with a young woman on the streets doing acrobatics, which, you know, and talk, tell me more about the, the protests and how they're demonstrating and of course risking arrests themselves.

Not only risking arrests, risking getting killed. I've been talking to a lot of women who go on the streets regularly and women who weren't going out in the past few days but wanted to go out last night. So there's a young woman. She's in her 20s in Iran and Tehran that I speak to regularly. and she is quite a character, quite a punk character. She wears literally combat gear and goes out, wears a bulletproof vest, helmet, combat boots,

and she goes out every night, she covers her face. And I asked her, I worry for her. So I said, you know, aren't you worried? A few times I said, aren't you worried? You're going to get killed. You know that you can get shot. And after a few times that I said that, she sent me a message saying,

Fadernak, you keep saying they're going to kill me. They've already killed all my dreams. And when you hear that, you understand why people are on the street. This is a state that has failed in so many ways. And one of the ways is to provide a dignified life for its citizens. So what people are saying on the streets right now is that they want to have a dignified life. You've mentioned the exiled prince, the son of the Shah, Reza Pallavi. He's been supporting protesters and calling for more action, as you mentioned. If there were to be a regime change, would he be a popular choice for women? With women, maybe it will be quite difficult to say because, you know, women generally in political movements are a bit more progressive.

And with what happened with woman life freedom was that it was a protest not only against the political system, but the whole patriarchal culture and societal values that oppress women by the state, street, and home, basically. So, you know, when the genius out of the bottle is really hard to get it back into the bottle, basically. So for a lot of women, a Pahlavi, Reza Pahalabi, does represent. the patriarchal monarchy system, which they feel like it's a step, going a step back, and they want to go more forward. So it is a bit difficult to say that if all women would support him. But he is one of those characters, political characters, that a lot of experts say his last name plays both as a blessing and a curse for him, because he represents a monarchy, but also he could. So a lot of people might not support him,

but also he could bring a certain group of people and unify them. Women Life Freedom, the movement, is it simply, you know, is it all women that support? It's just how broad is the movement? Is it throughout Iran? Is it just Tehran? Is it a certain, sort of educated woman that's part of it? Just to give us more insight into women?

That's a very good question, Anita. But women life freedom, when it happened three years ago, it was something that transcended political divides, social divides, economic divides, and ethnic divides. It was one of those moments that a lot of experts say, political analysts and experts say, was the beginning of a revolutionary process in Iran because it transcended all of these divides. And you saw the Kurds, the lords, the baloche, all saying woman life freedom or gen, Gianzad, Azzardine. So it is a very whole encompassing slogan and movement. But within it afterwards, a lot of divides happen, just like any political movement. Divides start happening. Cracks start appearing.

And right now, you are seeing that. all of those cracks, especially with this whole online, you know, polarization of, oh, the globalist left, oh, the fascist right. It is exactly that kind of debate that is happening in Iran as well. So the woman life freedom is what called the woke, more progressive, woke and, oh, lefty kind of movement right now. What can we read into the psyche of Iranian women generally that there is a huge protest movement even happening? Women are not looking at protests like they did maybe 20 years ago or 30 years ago.

They don't want to be on the sidelines and they don't want their demands and rights to be a byproduct of a protest or an uprising. They want to be on the forefront their demands. And you can see it on the streets. They are not standing on the sidelines. they are taking lead even in small cities, like a city like Ali Gudars, which is a very small conservative city. You see women on the forefront. Women are leading the chance. So they see themselves not on the sidelines and they write as the byproduct or a promise that should be

given to them, but as they're practicing their agency, their political agency, more than ever. Yeah, more examples of how they're protesting. Well, what we are seeing, they started this online, like some of the online stuff that I can show you. They are taking a cigarette like this and they have set the photo of the leader on fire and lighting their cigarettes like this. So this was one of the stuff that they did online. On the streets, they are on the streets. In the first few days of the protest, you saw women sitting in front of the police, the security forces, with men sitting on the ground, making their bodies shields for other protesters right on the front. So this is very striking in a society in a country like Iran under a state which has always tried to make.

women invisible. And you're also seeing women. Yesterday, a photo was circulated online of a man and a woman, a young man and a woman, kissing each other on the lips in front of security forces. This is, you know, in a country where I grew up there, so I know, like, even talking to a boy who was not related to you, you would end up in jail. But you need the support of the men to be able to do that. So that is exactly. So you're seeing this, this, this, you're seeing this, unity, that maybe it was really hard to imagine this kind of unity probably 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Now, President Trump has threatened to intervene militarily if protesters are killed. What will women in Iraq make of this?

You know, military intervention by any foreign force will divide people hugely. There are people who say, you know, listen, this is. a regime that is not just going to fall by itself. But in general, women are not much in support of military action and foreign intervention by any government outside of Iran. And with things happening at the moment right now in Iran, people feel more confident than ever that the finish line is kind of tangible. They can do it themselves. Of course, they are very aware that countries, you know, in that region, countries like Iran with natural resources and their geopolitical position, the will of people is not solely enough for change. And it is important with the U.S. and

other governments, how they negotiate and what they are planning for that region as well. People, they say that we know that what they plan for the region plays a role in our future. So they are watching it closely. But military intervention is something that divides people and women. Yeah. If regime change were to happen, how convinced are you that it would mean change for women? That is a difficult question. But from what I see inside Iran, from what I hear,

is that women, as I mentioned, the genius out of the bottle, women are determined and adamant to make sure that their demands are on the forefront and are not sidelined. And we are seeing it on how they are protesting on the streets and not just being supporters of protests, but being on the forefront. So it seems that this woman life freedom spirit is still alive. and women are holding on to it because they believe that that is what will keep them and their demands central. And now, Faranak, I'm going to ask you a personal question because you have family there. You spent that you are Iranian, you've lived there for 30 years of your life and before you left.

And you started this conversation by telling us that the last time something like this happened was in 1979. And then before that, 100 years before that, 100 years ago. just how are you feeling about what's happening right now? I'm obviously a lot of concern about this comms blackout. But just what do you think about what's happening in Iran? I'm blue to my phone and there's a lot of hope, but also a lot of fear. Of course, as an Iranian who's been in exile for 16 years, I wish nothing more than a free Iran where everyone can be free.

And I can go back to my home and see my family. So I watch all of this with hope, but also very, very cautiously and also very conscious of how brutal this regime is and how things can take a turn in a different way. So but in Farsi and Persian we say in Sons and Dasbo meet, You are, humans are alive because of hope. So let's be hopeful. Let's see what happens.

Faranak, Amidi, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. That's our BBC's Global Women's Reporter there. 84844 is the number to text me. And lots of you are texting in about a moment in time when a friend has helped you through something and has brought you closer. I had tried so hard to get pregnant, but then the miscarriage started. I told no one but my friend thought my silence was out of character. She told me that she was always asked, has always asked her daughter,

you promise, as the spoken assurance all was well. I told her I was fine. She asked, promise. When I couldn't, she was at my door in five minutes and saw me through the whole horrible process. Keep those stories coming in. Now, Chloe Zhao, the second woman ever and the first woman of colour to win an Oscar for Best Director. Her acclaimed filmography spans songs My Brothers Taught Me, Marvels, Eternals and Nomadland, the film that earned her that coveted Academy Award.

Well, now she's back with one of the year's most anticipated releases, Hamnet. Adapted from Maggie O'Farrell's best-selling novel, it imagines the lives of Anne Hathaway, or Anyas, and William Shakespeare exploring how the devastating loss of their 11-year-old son, Hamlet, reshape their marriage and inspired one of literature's greatest works Hamlet. The film stars Jesse Buckley and Paul Muscal and is tipped for awards glory, with Jessie this week winning the Critics Choice Award for Best Actress. Chloe Zhao, who co-wrote and directed the film,

joined me a few weeks ago, and I asked her why she chose this project. I think there were two things that came, jumped off the pages of Maggie O'Ferro's book. Incredible book. One is this woman and her relationship with the forest, with nature, with Yancein, her as a woman, as a mother, a lover, as a storyteller herself, that's linked to a, connected to a very old and ancient lineage. And then there is an artist who has no other choice but to express himself through his creativity. And as a result, build the Globe Theater and then created communal experiences for hundreds of years

until today. And William Shakespeare's story we all know about. Exactly. That's that guy. Yeah, that guy. That's the guy she's talking about. So those things are in me that I wanted to explore. I was so excited when I knew I was going to interview you for so many reasons. But one of them is because when obviously you and Francis McDormant worked together for Nomadland, I remember thinking, oh my God, I wish I could be in the room with those two women.

And now you're telling me about your experience working with Maggio Farrell. another powerhouse couple together that I'm hugely admire. So let's bring in another one who's Jesse Buckley who plays Agnes, the wife of William Shakespeare in Hamner. Can you tell me how that came about

and was it always going to be Jesse? I mean, she's extraordinary. Yeah, always. Yeah. I read the book and I had a very tonnelled vision of Jesse. I just saw her. I saw her in that world. I saw her embody Maggie's world.

And that I never had a doubt to be anyone else. I felt not only she's technically such a Berlin actress and also with very strong discipline and conviction to do the work. I mean, the amount of work she does everything from making honey to reading up all about everything around the character to like journaling to putting herself through somatic work. It's a full immersion of working on this character. But then also there's something about her having a really big heart and also having some kind of, whether she knows or not, ancient lineage supporting her.

So she feels vulnerable enough to be able to, I say, open that window to her soul in front of a camera and you see that in her eyes. I completely know what you're talking about. There might be people who don't, though. What do you mean in ancient lineage coming through her soul? I think in order to feel safe, whether you're an actor or just you and me right now, you know, in order to know where we're a mask to protect ourselves and to feel safe, you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally, you know, by your mother,

your father, your grandmothers, or, you know, in some case, your ancestors. And that connection is primal and vital. for us and that's unfortunately very much lost and I feel like she whether she knows it or not is there and this character that's why she's drawn to this character because she's supported by her lineage it's a very powerful character and role to play

because the themes of maternal grief are so strong in the film there's scenes of childbirth immense unimaginable grief that are not sanitized Yeah. Why was it important for you to do that? Because when we sanitize grief, which is something inevitably, no matter how much you try to numb it out, we're all going to feel at some point of our lives. And when we do, when we, when we sanitize that, we sanitize the love. Because you

only feel that much grief when you love that deeply. It's literally on the two side of a coin. And we are actually biologically, psychologically, designed in this way that tragedies, losses, and grief connect us. We're able to feel empathy for each other

through the unthinkable difficulties that we go through, and we literally design this way, and that's why we form community. We help strangers, and no matter how much you disagree with someone, and you see them grieving for something,

you immediately feel more to be more human. And that, I think, when we try to avoid the grief part, we actually forgot empathy and love. How did you work with Jessie in those scenes? How did you bring her out of it? Like what happens on set when you're in such an intense environment? You know, first of all, having the right ecosystem around her, we carefully pick our cast and crew.

And one thing is to start and end the day. as if it's a container. And ritualistically, in the sense that in the morning, it's about taking it slow. It's about, you know, playing music, letting people know that you're allowed to have a profound experience. You're allowed to be silent. You're allowed to feel things.

And if you're going to cry, that's also welcomed. Everyone, not just the actors. And so you kind of create a communal experience. And then you let the community, like, slowly easing to the day. And sometimes we'll play music, because music help harmonize everyone. And then we sometimes would play music

on the first couple takes. What music? Usually, is Jesse in the morning will send me a playlist. So it's very much where Anya's is. You know, we really want to understand her language. And then we will play that for the first couple takes, even.

So the camera operator, everyone is, again, is moved as a community. And only, Jesse would say, only when she feels held by the community can that level of vulnerability comes through. And then you end the day with dancing. Ah. Tell me more. I mean, you got me.

You had me at dancing, Chloe. The best way to build community is dancing. Yes. You may disagree with somebody from across the table. But if you play the music, everybody gets up dancing, you immediately feel like, oh, we could be friends. It doesn't matter how awkward the moves are. But as soon as we start moving our bodies, we're reminded that we're a lot more similar than we think we are.

Yes, universal language. And it just lets it out of your body. Is it true that you and Jesse bonded over a breakup? Tell me more about this story. Not a breakup. That wasn't exactly correct. But it's more like a serious of heartbreak and loss and losing loved ones.

and losing a sense of self, I think, when you're in life, everything that you built, that first 40 years started crumble. And then Jesse caught me at a time when a couple of those things were on top of each other within a day. And I started to feel, I was near Central Park. I was just that feeling when you feel like the ground isn't there and there's nothing to hold you.

And so, you know, she just happened to text me, say, hey, are you okay? I like 1 in the morning when I wasn't. You're in the room, you go, I'm not okay. You know, and so when she said, sent me that text message, I had a choice in that moment. I can say, yeah, I'm fine. And I am a woman, a person that have always said I'm fine. Yeah. But not that day.

And that's why I think midlife crisis, however you want to call it, the quickening, it's not a bad thing because it made you realize you can't do this on your own and it was probably one of the first time I would say to someone who I don't know that well yet but just happened to be available

in that moment going like actually I'm not okay she's like come over right away and that's how I mean it was when you were a little girl or just even being in film school you you look at that happening on the television

And I usually watch the Oscars with a pint of Hageness ice cream. Mango Sorbet, it was my choice. I used to watch it in my 20s every year. And you don't think it's so far from your reality because I didn't know anybody and I didn't, you know, I was an immigrant. So. But so then one day you wake up with that nomination and really, I mean, since we're on the conversation of community. community, I started, again, knowing no one and Sundance Institute, Film Independent,

AFP, you know, all these labs welcomed me. I met Ryan Cougaler there, you know, I met David Lowry, Mario Heller, and a lot of these filmmakers that are supporting each other right now. And from these institute, and then the festivals, Cannes, Sun Dance, you know, Tayloride, And these festivals have supported me for all my films. And when you go to these festivals, that's your community right there. So then in that moment, I go, I guess I was held. Yeah. Yeah.

So you feel really nice. Chloe is only the second woman to have won best director, Oscar, but also the first non-white woman. And just to remind everyone, Chinese immigrants to America. As a woman, going into the rarefied world of filmmaking, to win an Oscar, it's extraordinary. What does it take? What does it take to do that? Like, how?

Well, so the women's ours. So, like, I do think as women, we value collaboration and the gang community more, you know, more than what I think sometimes the dominant culture are saying, like, you got to do it on your own. And I have always been, you know, collaborating not just with my crew and cast, but the places I go into. Yeah. You really, you know, director sounds very kind of singular. But a captain of a ship will tell you, if you want to live. You need a good crew.

And they trust you. They trust is, trust, right? There is a fine line between being in control and preparing. everything and making sure everything is going to produce like we wanted to be. And then also there's another half of the equation, which is do the work to create the container. So when we actually are in it, then do the work of letting the go and allowing everyone to bring forth what they're bringing forth and trust that sometimes something happens

that is so different than what I envisioned. And you have to look at that, go, there is a message there. And you have to be unsaid, try to decipher what that message is and try to follow that. Because you fight against it, then there's a chance you lose that extra thing, that mystery that's bigger than you. This is lovely. This is very good profound life advice. I was going to say to you, what advice would you give to any sort of creative who feels like they're an outsider? How do they get in?

Of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that is more, you know, because I wasn't given the mainstream opportunity, the first two films, I just had this, people had asked me during that time, and I always said, you know, if you're trying to get to the top floor of a house, and then they're not letting you up. And you can spend a decade of your life trying to climb one flight up, or you can walk out of the house and you see like, whoa, there is. a whole undiscovered countries out there

but then you have to humble yourself because you're not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house

and then can you talk to your ego and go well I'm not going to be able to rise up you know I'm not going to

have all these convenience I have to cut down the trees I have to get people to help I have to build a foundation

and it's going to take time and you have to weather some bigger storms but then when it's all finish is your

house it's your house is your house is your house It's your house, ladies. Chloe, that is so beautiful. That is perfectly explained. I love that and I will be regaling that to lots of people for the rest of my life.

What I also love about you is that you go from Nomadland to Marvel, Hamner, to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This is, I cannot wait. What can you tell us about it? You know, I was 1920 and I was having. Mount Holyoke, the women's college. And me and my roommate and people in the house I was staying at the dorm, we will get together every Tuesday. And it will be like a ritual of gathering of the sisters.

I will watch buffet. Yeah. And so it is about found family. And I still think that, especially in the modern age, where the traditional family, sometimes even like miles away, you know, It's a different thing. That we can't always rely on like we did back in the days. So this idea of a found family is so that's what Buffy is about.

You know, that and then the monsters and the demons and the vampires are being a mirror, an archetype to what's inside of us. So every week we'll either learn to slay it or learn to work with it or learn to love it. The extraordinary and brilliant Chloe Zhao there, Hamnet is in cinemas from today and we heard it there. Build your own houses, sisters, build your own houses. It's 84844. I'm going to read out one of these messages that's come through actually that says, I'm not a woman, but 26 years ago, my friend Anna, asked me how I was doing just as the curtain was going up on the real thing. I heard myself say uncontrollably, I'm actually in a really bad way.

The end result? A long conversation. my decision to come out at the age of 32, to call off the wedding to a woman three months later, to leave the religious community into which I was born, and to be with my male partner ever since. I feel a sense of relief for you. Keep your messages coming in.

Now, Kirsty Brumelow, KC, has been appointed chair of the Bar Council, becoming the first to lead an entirely female senior leadership team, a specialist in human rights, criminal and public law. She brings a wealth of experience and takes on the role. of representing around 18,000 practicing barristers in England and Wales. Kirsty has been involved in bar politics and representation throughout her career, having previously chaired, served as chair of the Criminal Bar Association,

where she led negotiations with the governments of a historic increase in fees for criminal barristers. In 2021, she was appointed a deputy high court judge in the King's Bench Division and is an accredited mediator and acts in conflict resolution in 2023 research data. from Barrister's Working Live survey found evidence of a long-term problem with bullying harassment and inappropriate behaviour. In response, the Bar Council commissioned an independent review chaired by Baroness Harriet Harmon KC,

which reported back in 2025, making 36 recommendations for change. So, how is Kirsty going to tackle those and what does she see as her priorities in the role? And what does it take to be Kirsty? I'm delighted to say, Kirsty Brimelow joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for.

very much. I will ask you all those questions, but first of all, congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's my first week, and I've very much been hitting the ground at a massive pace. Okay, so what have you done? What was top priority in the first week? Well, actually, I've already given evidence to the Justice Select Committee in the Houses of Parliament on access to justice, and that's been focusing on legal aid, particularly on civil legal aid. That was over two hours. I went to Woolwich, Crown Court yesterday to speak to all the barristers and also the judges around this proposal to the government's proposal to curb jury trials and looking at the issue of the backlogs.

I've actually just come out of a podcast on jurors. I was on Stan News this morning. I've been on the Today program on the Times Radio. But the Woman Hour, of course, is the pinnacle. So thank you. And yeah, he's saving it the best to the end of the week. So tell me about the job itself. What is the chair of the Bar Council? What's the role? The role is representation of the bar, and that's the whole bar, people working in different areas of law. So that includes, of course, commercial and unpromoting legal services overseas, which makes a huge 42 billion pound contribution to the economy. And it also focuses, of course, on legal aid, on the most vulnerable. And there's an opportunity with being chair of the bar

and being part of the bar council to advocate policy change. And one thing I'm going to be looking at very closely this year is how we treat children in our justice system and looking at the age of criminal responsibility. It's the lowest in Europe. It's 10. And also looking particularly at violence against women and girls and joining the government strategy there to the strategies to Harvard of the government in 10 years.

We'd like to end it entirely, of course, But so there's lots of policy work, which is super interesting that you can do in the job as well, as well as promoting what's happening in the media, which we hope will encourage more barristers and also retain our junior barristers because it's always important that we have our talent coming through. So last year, an independent review, as I mentioned, led by Baroness Harriet Harmon, and found bullying and sexual harassment at the bar to be widespread. This is something you experienced very early on in your career. You've spoken about. Can you tell us about that?

Yes, so I've spoken about it before in the 1990s when I was a junior barrister. But before you join the bar, you go through a training. It's called a pupillage. And I've been offered a pupillage. And I hadn't passed my bar exams then. I was working in the library. It's graze in. So you might know there's four inns of courts,

and that's all part of the education of barristers. You have to be a member of one of the inns. And it was around Christmas time. And a barrister who was in the chambers that I've been off of pupillage at came to find me in the library, and he gave me a Christmas present and a card. And I thought it was very nice until I opened it. And it was a negligee.

And it was a note in there saying, go, let's go for a drink, and, you know, put this in. I think it says something like put this in your overnight bag. I mean, it was, it was kind of, I just remember being very shocked by it, of course. And but in some way, what did you do? Sorry, I just. Yeah, no, I then spoke to other barristers. I started to get to know through my, through my time as a student because there's lots of, you know,

kind of overlap with students and barristers. And actually what was in some ways worse was the advice I received. I mean, some people said, oh, you know, keep it. You know, you have to play the game. I remember, I said, I can't keep it. So I eventually, I took the advice of the people who were my age, who said to me, of course, return it. And that's what I did. And I, but I had to do in quite an anonymous way via the clerks in the chambers with my own vote inside saying, thank you very much, but I can't possibly accept it. Well, I think that gives us an insight into why you are where you are right now, Kirstie, to have that in

you when you were still doing your pupillage. So now you've got the top job. What are you going to do about it? Well, key is to implement the 36 recommendations of Harriet Harmon. So what's been very positive about the Bar Council is that there's been for a good decade, really good tools there to deal with harassment. And there's a particular tool which is more recent called Talk to Spot, where somebody who's putting up with terrible behaviour, harassment, sexual harassment,

bullying from judges can make a report using this online. And it doesn't necessarily have to be one which goes to complaint. It can also just be simply recording what's happening. But what the Boghouse has seen in its surveys is in fact the number of complaints in the surveys was going up. So something was going wrong. So we then commissioned the review by Harriet Harmon in order to really, really properly grapple with it. And what's going to happen is there's going to be a commissioner who's employed by the Bar Council. That person's been appointed and will be announced very shortly. They will be a point of contact for people. They also will be able to work alongside chambers on looking at this proper monitoring, proper access for a person to complain within

chambers. And we're also working with the judiciary. And the Lady Chief Justice certainly is welcoming and supporting the work that the bar council is doing. But I've got many experiences of being bullied by judges over the years. As I've, and I hear now from our junior barristers, and I've taken complaints myself, which I've passed on and passed on to senior judges of complaints of bullying. So that also should not be happening. What I'd like to add is, it's always difficult when you speak about these topics, because the bar is actually a wonderful profession. And I also sit part-time as a judge. That also is a fantastic profession. But this behaviour, this behaviour absolutely isn't the majority. But even some of this behaviour is too much. So

I'm very determined to do what I can to get rid of it. And very quickly, because you mentioned, you know, retention is really important. For women considering a career at the bar, although struggling to stay in it, any advice? What would you want them to know? Don't give up. Absolutely don't give up and come and talk to me. If you're thinking of leaving, come and talk to me because that's the last thing that I would want and anyone would want. And in fact, the team at the Bar Council are fantastic. And they take calls all the time from people with all sorts of issues and also give advice. But my emails are always open.

It's a great profession. And there's plenty of people to give advice. And also, you're not alone. There's probably lots of the things you've been through other people have been through. Absolutely. Kirstie Brimolo, chair of the Bar Council. Thank you for speaking to us. and come and talk to us again, please, very soon.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, it was one of ITV's top dramas of 2024 and over the new year, Red Eye returned for a second series with the actor Leslie Sharp playing the cool-headed MI5 boss Madeline Delaney. It's a brand-new conspiracy. This time, Madeline is on board a government jet from Washington, D.C., along with Defence Secretary Alex Peterson, played by Nicholas Rowe, when she receives a message that says there's a bomb on board.

I don't know what to say. That's not to say anything, hey? Just get that detonator from him before he escapes from the embassy. I will do everything in my power to get you off this plane. I give you my word. Leslie Sharp, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for having me. I tried to read that in the same, giving the same tension

that this series creates so many twists and turns, so much suspense. I have to watch it. I had to watch it behind a pillow. I mean, the opening scene just had me so tense. How and why did this appeal to you, this role? Well, Madeline Delaney is one of the good guys. I think a woman at the top, top of her profession, but with a very complicated backstory at home.

And she's kind of in the tradition of Stella Rimmington and Eliza Manningham Buller in that she has risen to the table. top at a time when it was difficult for women to cut through. So she's maybe had to do extra. Her moral compass is set to the North Star. She holds people to account. She cannot stand people who are supposed to be supporting and enabling and protecting the public who have any kind of self-promotional self-regard at their forefront. And so, of course, Alex Peterson, she doesn't realize early on,

but Alex Peterson is someone that she directly rubs up against because he is not what he appears to be. What parts of her personality can you relate to? Well, decency, I think. I think decency. That's what I think most people try to be. And so there's this kind of strange, I don't know how you feel,

but I certainly think when leaders suddenly start being a bit loose with the truth, it's confusing because I think most people want leaders who are decent. The character, Madeline, is also very cool under pressure. When she gets that phone call to say, also this is not a spoiler that there is a bomb on board this flight. The way she reacts, obviously she's the boss and she's calm for a reason. Are you a calm person yourself? It depends what the situation is. I think if things are going to deaf content, that's when I can

absolutely get my right. This is what we have to do. We have to go there. These are the people who can help. But then, you know, if I cut myself, I can run around the kitchen going, oh my God, oh my God, I'm going to bleed to death. So it depends on the situation. And I would say that I'm more panicked by minor situations than kind of like the big things. Yeah, then you're something else. Another switch kicks out and you can deal with it. Whilst I've got you here, I've got to ask you about this extraordinary film that you're in called Pillion.

It's out at the moment. It's set against the backdrop of the BDSM community and practices with sex scenes that seem very real. And I'll let you explain your role in it. and also why you said yes to this film and it caught me off guard. I didn't know what to expect and I fell in love with it. Oh, that's great. It's beautiful.

Oh, great. I'm so pleased that you had that response. Well, Peggy, who is the mother of Colin, who is our protagonist, Colin and Ray, end up having a BDSM gay relationship. Peggy is a woman. You might have to explain what BDSM is. Well, it's bondage.

It's sadomasochism. It's subs, doms. And it's a relationship that I suppose from the outside, it would look as if the dominant partner is the one that holds all the power, but actually the subs have a lot of power too. And it's a consensual situation, sexual situation. Peggy is the mother of Colin, who is, a lad of in his early 30s still living at home doesn't have a partner is gay peggy and pete his parents are

completely supportive of him um that's really refreshing i think to see um a family that are completely behind their kid who's gay you know there isn't an issue for them yeah but peggy's thing is that she's got cancer and she's dying and what she really wants for her son i think is for him to find someone who upholds him and values him and loves him in the way that she has. So her issue with Ray when she meets him and from what she's gleaned from Colin is that maybe he is not doing that. So she's got a problem with Ray. But what happens is that, I mean, I was very struck actually by listening to Chloe Zhao

when she was talking about other families is that Colin comes from a very loving family, but he's not found himself. But in the BDSM community, he finds his tribe. He finds another family. And I think that that is the heart of the story is that Colin learns where his boundaries are. And you learn about Ray that his problem is that he can't actually, he's using BDSM as a way of avoiding intimacy. But Colin actually needs that. It's very beautiful. But it's also very funny. Just the sort of backdrop of a very ordinary suburban family. Yeah. And Colin Smith, who sings in a barbershop quartet going and finding his tribe.

And you're the only woman, female character really in the entire film. What do you get out of playing a small role? Here you are, MI5, you know, main event. And then, I mean, you're a very important character. You're the mother of the lead. But completely different. Yeah, well, you know, that's the power of women, isn't it? is that, you know, you can be someone who is at the centre of a family

and really important and nurturing and caring about every member of that family. And then you can be a woman who is out in the world and is very powerful and is taking on responsibility for the greater good. One isn't necessarily better than the other. But both women are powerful. I need to name-check some of your other characters. because you're a very busy actor. You're enormously successful.

Looking back at everything you've been in, there's so much to list and to love. You starred as Trudy Graham and Paul Abbott's clocking off in the early 2000s. You were cast opposite, Alan Davis in Bob and Rose between 2011 and 2016. You co-starred with Saran Jones playing Jane Scott for five series of Scott and Bailey. What's your favourite type of role? What makes you go, yes? Well, I think it's, I mean, I think a lot of actors answer this.

question in the same way. It's always to do with the writing. And my early career in theatre was at the Royal Court, which is the sort of epicentre of bringing on new writing talent. So I was always working when I was there with writers in the room. And it's thrilling to work with writers and thrilling to work with great writing. Which brings me to Rita Sue and Bob 2, which was your debut in 1987 as a Bradfordian. It's one of my favourite films. Also, the writer, Andrea Dunbar, is a great hero of mine who tragically died far too young.

Can you tell me, did anyone expect that film to become what it became? No, I don't think so. But, you know, I got asked that about the full Monty as well. And I think in the 80s, early 90s, there was an imperative within the film community to tell very British-centric stories rather than making films that would possibly go on to capture the American market. And I think it's very interesting that those films,

people have very fond memories and perceptions of because they are absolutely drilling into our culture in the way that Spanish, German, Italian, French filmmakers make films about their countries and their people. You've lived in London since you're 18, but you've said that you have a quintessentially northern DNA. From one northerner to another, what does that, what stays in you? God, I think it's being slightly maybe, I don't know, a bit rough around the edges and happy to sort of muck in and wanting to be part of a community that, you know, London's, you know, London.

London can feel, I suppose, sometimes like people are very separate, but actually I'm always looking to kind of go to a place as a regular and get to know people. And, you know, London's actually like a lot of little villages, essentially. And I think that that's a kind of very northern thing, is to sort of bob along with your neighbours and have mates. Yeah, and chat to people. Yeah.

I'd be curious. I guess that makes you who you are. Yeah. Such a brilliant actor. And the two things that we've got to delight in that Leslie's in, just fantastic, both of them Red Eye and Pillion. Thank you so much, Leslie, for coming in to speak to me today. Thanks, Anita.

And best of luck with everything you've got coming up in the future. We look forward to all of it. I'm going to end with some of your messages because there's a couple of some really lovely ones coming in. When I was 11 weeks pregnant with my first child, my parents were killed in an accident. It was, of course, completely devastating. Over the last 33 years,

there were four particular people who have never in all those, fail to acknowledge the date of their desks and their love for them and me. There are no words to describe what this means to me. That's from Joanna. Do join me. Thank you for all your messages. I'm sorry I didn't get to read them all out, but do join me tomorrow for weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Amal Rajan, and from BBC Radio 4, this is radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it.

What's really changed is the volume of information. That has exploded. And also by offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands. Go to the Chancellor and say radically cut the taxes of those with children. Telling our stories is powerful and a radical act. Listen to Radical with Amul Rajan on BBC Sounds.