Woman's Hour - Women in Iran, Miscarriage cradle, Zoom bombing

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

The week marks one month since the United States and Israel attacked Iran. We take a look at the impact the resulting war has had on the women and children of the country. Krupa Padhy is joined by BBC Chief International Correspondent Lyse Doucet and Ghoncheh Habibiazad, Senior Reporter from BBC News Persian.Recurrent miscarriage is when you experience more than two or three pregnancy losses, and it affects around one in 100 women. A device designed to offer more care and dignity during miscarriage, and that could aid greater understanding, is now being used in 28 hospitals across the UK. Engineer Laura Corcoran created a miscarriage collection cradle after she suffered the loss of her third pregnancy. She is calling for a wider roll-out of the device. Laura speaks to Krupha, along with Siobhan Quenby, Professor of Obstetrics at the University of Warwick.A new exhibition at Kensington Palace is celebrating the 150th birthday of Princess Sophia Duleep Singh – the Punjabi princess and suffragette. The Last Princesses of Punjab exhibition explores her life and five other women who shaped her. Krupha talks to the curator Polly Putnam and journalist and Radio 4 presenter Anita Anand, author of Sophia: Princess, Suffragette, Revolutionary.Another chance to hear our interview with Janet Willoner, known as the tree growing granny. Janet has grown more than 4,000 trees in her garden.  She forages for seeds, grows them, and they eventually grow in forests in her local area of North Yorkshire.  Zoom bombing involves crashing into a meeting and taking it over - more often than not showing shocking content including pornography. Businesswoman Lou Robey was holding a meeting on International Women's Day when it was zoom bombed. Lou has put out a call for action for media platforms and the wider community to act. She and Gina Neff, Professor of Responsible AI at Queen Mary, University of London join Krupha to discuss.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. What a week it is yet again in geopolitics with the ongoing war in the Middle East. Now, as you may have heard in our bulletins, President Trump

has announced the war will end within three weeks. We're going to talk to the BBC's chief international correspondent Lee's Doucette about how events are impacting women and children in Iran. Also, if you were with us on Monday, you may recall we spoke about the new BBC drama series called Babies, about the emotional and physical tolls that miscarriage can have on couples and their relationships. So many of you got in touch to share your personal experiences. We're going to continue with that thread of frank conversation by talking to an engineer who's designed a device to offer more dignities to women like her when a miscarriage occurs. And we're going to to learn more about a new exhibition which shines light on the life of Queen Victoria's goddaughter,

a Punjabi princess who became a trailblazing suffragette, Sophia Dulip Singh. Anitha Anand, who has written extensively about Sophia's life, will join us. Plus, Zoom bombing. That is when your video meeting is infiltrated by unauthorised individuals displaying obscene, offensive and often hateful content. You might have your own experience of this. we discuss why it's still happening and what needs to be done. Do get in touch on any of the stories that you hear in the usual ways. Our text number, that is 84844. Over on social media, you will find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour.

You can always email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp message or audio note using the number 0300-400-444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website, and we look forward to reading your messages throughout the programme. But first, this week marks one month since the United States and Israel attacked Iran. Large-scale strikes targeted Iranian military assets and the Islamic Republic's top leadership killing the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Iran has retaliated, including effectively cutting off the strait of Hormuz

and the war has spread across the Middle East. Now, as we've been hearing this morning, President Trump has told reporters that the U.S., I quote, will be leaving Iran very soon and that U.S. military action could, could end as soon as two or three weeks. Today, we want to look at the impact the conflict has had on women and children of the country and the wider region. In recent years, they've been at the centre of a powerful protest movement following the death of Masa Amini, challenging laws, reshaping public space and at times defining the global image of resistance. We are awaiting our connection to the BBC's chief international correspondent Lees Tussetti will be joining us.

And I'm also joined here in the studio by Gonche Habibiazad, reporter from BBC News, Persian. Welcome, Gonche. When the US and Israel first attacked Iran, we saw those images, didn't we, of people celebrating. They believed change was coming. How are people feeling now we are four weeks on? Well, the opinion that I'm hearing from people is from tech-savvy people, younger ones who want to have access to the internet amid the blackout right now by the government imposed on them. And they're paying hefty amounts. of money to connect to the internet via Stalin, which is also banned in Iran and using or possessing Starlink satellite internet, can lead to up to two years prison in Iran. But the ideas of them,

especially of women I've been hearing, that it's changing somehow, that celebratory moods. Some are still in that mood somehow, but they're getting tired as well. They're saying that this is continuing for too long. I don't want it. It's very much divided and I'm just getting like a glimpse. But there are different issues coming up. Some of them are just trying to get back to their routine, going to the gym or going to a park, but then they hear a strike and they decide to stay at home. Also, there's the question of their pets. I know a friend in Tehran, she's in her 20s with her cats and every time that the cats hears the strikes, it just wants to cuddle. So it's impacting day-to-day living in so many ways, clearly. So many ways. And it's just

that I don't have much access to those that their homes. have been ruined. I have a friend of mine she was saying that the windows of their house was shattered and she went out of Tehran to another province just to be a bit common away from strikes because Tehran has seen the heaviest strikes so far. And then her mother called her and she said all of the windows have shattered. We had blankets on ourselves. So we are fine now. So she just like ran away back to Tehran to see how her family was doing. Before we get into the specifics of how this is impacting women and children, I do want to bring in the BBC's Lees-Decet.

Welcome, Lees. Hearing there from Goncée about how difficult daily life has become and the fact that people are still divided. What are your thoughts on that? Yes, really good to join you and Gonche. And Gonche knows very well how hard it is because even with the difficulties, the enormous difficulties of this digital blackout,

She's been able to be in touch on a daily basis. And I have to say, I don't think she sleeps with her friends and others in Iran. But I would change your question to say that it has become difficult. It was already such a difficult, painful situation shot through with anger and uncertainty for Iranians. Even before this war started on February the 28th, I was in Iran in February, just weeks after a massive crackdown on a wave of nationwide protests. Thousands, possibly tens of thousands had been killed. And we were really struck by how people were still overwhelmed by anger,

fury at what has happened, pain. And this war began when they were still mourning the losses of that wave of protest. And then suddenly they were pushed into this war. And initially, and we heard it from people in Tehran then, and we still hear it from people, those who had dared to believe that the beginning of this war marked the beginning of the end of the Islamic Republic. Others, of course, said we've already been through wars. We had a war in June last year. We don't need another war.

And bear in mind, too, that here in Britain, we often hear about the cost of living crisis, inflation running at around 4%. In Iran, the inflation was 60%. percent. One woman we met said she goes to the market, that was, she used to, in February, she'd go to the markets every day to see just how the prices have gone up. So there is such a tumult of emotions for Iranians. And as Gonsche was saying that even those who had said, well, bring the war on, are now saying, what kind of a war is this? You are, your missiles are slamming into crowded residential areas. You are hitting our national infrastructure. You are distrower. You are

destroying our future. That's a very important point to raise about the economic situation being so dire and it has been for such a long time. And we often talk about women's rights being so central to this movement. But the economic strife has also been so central to this movement as well. Gondja, you've been focusing in on a couple of key stories that have caught our attention this week. One being reports that children as young as 12 are being drawn into this war effort by Iran. That has been the case. And it's not something that I've just heard from eyewitnesses, as I've heard from them as well.

But an Iranian official last week, he said from the IRGC Islamic Revolutioning Guard course, he said that children as young as 12 can volunteer to be going to checkpoints in Tehran. And we know that Israel has been targeting these checkpoints as well. Also on Iranian media some weeks ago we saw that there was a report of a death of an 11-year-old boy who went alongside his father to one of these checkpoints and he was killed. And at that time we just had a single report by one Iranian outlaws, but then foreign-based outlets who work on Iran, they also confirmed his death at that time. And that is very much worrying about what's going to happen to these children at the checkpoint

if they are targeted as well. And also Human Rights Watch has said that this is like a grave violation of the right of these children under 15. Can I pick up on the word volunteer, that children can volunteer to support the IRGC's efforts? Parents obviously involved. What are you hearing from them? I mean, are they putting their children forth,

volunteering their children? That's the thing. Apparently from the report that we saw on Iranian Atlas, they have been doing that. and from four different eyewitnesses I've heard in different cities in Tehran, northern city of Rash, Karad, which is a city near Tehran, that they have seen children out in the public. And I was asking, how did she know that they were children?

They said they were short in height. From their eyes, they could tell their moustache hadn't even grown, and they could see them at the checkpoints, checking cars, patrolling. I've also heard that they go around with the cars, with their parents. and we have seen videos on it on Iranian outlets as well and they're just kind of like pushing this through and saying that they're just encouraging it as well saying see these brave children that they're coming out

with their parents supporting the establishment and some of these and some of these people are members of besiege which is Iran's paramilitary as a part of the IRGC and estimates said that it has more than one million members inside the country. Lees, when you hear Gonche share details like that, I wonder what your reflections are on what this says about the state of Iran's

current military and political position. Our listeners, all of us will find it hard when we hear reports like this that parents are offering their children as young as 12 years old and that they're eager to go and join the fight. And I think it is, in part it is a reflection of something which is very deeply rooted.

And again, once you will know about this, about sort of Shia Islam, this idea of martyrdom and sacrifice. And you often will see in reports, not just from Iran, but from Palestinian areas, from other parts of the Arab world, where children are killed. And the parents say, my son or my daughter is a martyr. God's blessing me upon them. And sometimes it's something that we will find,

but it's hard to understand, but it's very much part of the ideology there, even though they love their children as much as all mothers and fathers do everywhere. And of course, it is especially pronounced now among those who still report the Islamic Authority. A guncha mentioned the Basque. This is a volunteer paramilitary militia. The reports are that they, even more people have signed up to defend their country, and those are the ones who go out and say death to America, death to Israel. And for some of them, it is just a slogan. But for them, it is, it is something that's

very heartfelt, and it's based on decades of hostility and now open warfare with the United States, with United States and Israel. In fact, again, on our trip last year, some people in the government said to us, and this is something that's often said about Iran, that Iran actually is one of the most, or has been one of the most pro-American countries in the region. And maybe our listeners will find that hard to understand. But they said these American attacks in our country are changing, are changing this for us. They're changing even even our minds. But I would also pick up on something Gunchi said, and it's really important for us to understand this, especially in our time, that Human Rights Watch pointed out that bringing children into the war who are under the age of 15,

even that is very young, is a war crime. So too is it a war crime when President Trump, the U.S. President and Commander-in-Chief, vows to bomb the power plants, in other words civilian infrastructure. Yes, they can be used for military purposes, but they are predominantly civilian infrastructure. That is a war crime too. And the language of this war in particular has been really dehumanizing, and we need to keep point. out that even in wars, and perhaps especially in wars, there are rules, there are international

humanitarian laws. With that in mind, when people reflect on how they feel about the US, how is that impacting dynamics gone here within families amongst friends? You've written about that as well. It's very difficult to know, obviously, what everyone is thinking inside Iran and the divisions among families, but I've been hearing that there have been some arguments and some disputes Going back to besiege, I've been hearing from someone's uncle who's in besiege that he had a fight with his own sister. The sister is against establishment and he told her sister that like, you're no longer my sister. And she told him like, go to hell, like explicitly in that words.

And I've been hearing that true friend of mine who is in his 20s in a city near Tehran. And he's very much against establishment. He was very surprised to see that uncle and a family. gathering and this conversation happening. And it's not just him. The dynamics are so different. Some are saying that this is generational differences, but it's not just that. Even among generations, there are people who support the war, support the strikes. There are people who support the wall. But they're saying that this is not how it should be. It should end now, even if the establishment like stays in power, some are tired. So there are just so much nuance about this. And can I ask you

specifically about women in this? Because many have said the fight for women's rights in Iran has been essential driving force in getting the situation to where it is. How do they feel about that? Do they feel like anything has changed, is going to change, even if the current regime is toppled? Well, when it comes to women's right, they don't know it. The situation is like very much maecie for them right now and what Lee said about the infrastructure. So many of them are worried about that point as well. So it's just like different ideas, different things coming to their mind. Ever since Massa Amini was killed in 2022 and the row over women's hijab. I know that some of them are going out without hijab right now during the war, but they're also scared of the checkpoints in the cities by the besieged militia.

So it's just very difficult. So they're wearing the hijab to feel more protected. Exactly. Some of them, when they see like besieged militia industries in Tehran, they just wear their hijab again. And that has like caused more fear among people. like I was seeing photos and videos because these women are breaking the law

button by not wearing hijab that is still the law in the country but now I've heard from some that when they see these checkpoints they put their hijab back on and that was not the case before the war so it has intensified we are seeing mass text messages being sent to people

threatening them against connection to the internet sending out the information doing anything that can be going against the country's rule So that is the situation of fear that is inside the country. Some people that I've been talking to there are saying that the force inside the country that is opposed to people is even stronger than what Iran is doing in the region,

like against their own people. I do want to take us back to the first morning of the war, Lee's, and talk about the primary school in Minab, that's in southern Iran. That was hit, killing hundreds of students of young girls, according to the Iranian authorities and the US media, has reported that American military investigators believe its own forces were likely responsible for hitting that school unintentionally. Now, the US Defence Secretary Pete HECSeth has previously said that the matter was being investigated. Lees, is there only news on that? What a devastating outcome on the first day of the war?

One month on and the most powerful army in the world hasn't been able to conclude its investigation into what is so far, biggest mass casualty event of this war, 168 dead, including more than 100 children. And yes, every time Pete Higseth, the U.S. Secretary of Defense, he calls himself now the Secretary of War, is asked about it. He says, we're investigating it. He even had to kind of do something quite rarer that he had to sort of not contradict, but add to what President Trump implied at some point that it was Iran who had attacked the school, saying that they have U.S. Tomahawk missiles, which of course is impossible. And the UN's human rights chief has said this week that it is urgent for the United States to conclude its investigation. He called it a visceral horror,

and he said justice has to be done. The BBC, the BBC's Verify a team, and I hope women's our listeners have heard about the BBC Varied by team, which looks more in depth and they work with the BBC's Persian service to investigate, to investigate what has happened. And they established that a US Tomahawk missile did slam in to, was fired into that area. It slammed into a military base close by. The school right next to it, which should have been seen on the satellite maps, was also hit multiple times. And there's been big questions raised in this. One is, was the United States using old intelligence that they didn't clearly see this fenced-off area where there was a school.

And B, there had been concerned many, many months before this war, that the United States was pulling back the funding for that part of the Pentagon, which looks into the risks of civilian casualties whenever military operations are conducted. So again, here is another example of wars of our time and the dehumanization that one month on, we still don't have an answer. I was thinking the other day, if this had been in an earlier administration a different time, would we have had someone from the U.S. administration standing up and saying we regret the gloss of life? We're very sorry.

This was a mistake. You know, we saw in Afghanistan, remember, on Women's Hour. You would have reported many times about the mistaken targeting in the U.S.-led war there. We haven't had that this time yet. Still those calls for accountability for those killings at that girls' school continue to grow louder. Thank you so much, Liz Juset, our chief international correspondent and Gonsche Habibiazah, the senior reporter for BBC News, Persian, working ever so hard on this important story. Thank you both for your time here on Woman's Hour.

Next, a new exhibition at Kensington Palace is celebrating the 150th birthday of Princess Sophia Dulip Singh, the Punjabi Princess and Suffragette. The last princesses of Punjab exhibition explores her life and that were five other women who shaped her extraordinary life. I'm joined now by curator Polly Putnam and journalist and radio four presenter, Anita Arnden, author of Sophia, Princess Suffragette Revolutionary, who also unveiled a blue plaque in her honour. Welcome to you both.

Thanks very much, Grupper. Lovely to be here. Anita, I'll start with you. For those who don't know much about her, who is Princess Sophia. She's an extraordinary creature who, arguably could be one of the sort of early British Asians, if you like. So she was born in Britain. She was the daughter of the last Maharaja of Punjab. You may not have heard of his name, but you'll know his greatest possession,

which was the Coenor Diamond, that much maligned, cursed diamond that Queen Camilla decided not to wear on her coronation. But she was brought up here in Britain. And she was the goddaughter of Queen Victoria, who looked after her, cared for her, and ended up giving her a grace and favour, how? at Hampton Court. Now all of that will make you think, oh, my blessed woman, fantastic.

She's got a charmed life ahead of her. But she throws it all into the skip when she takes on the cause of the suffragettes and decides to fight body, mind, soul for the rights of women in this country to have the vote. And Polly, you decided to take a closer look at Sophia's life, but also the women who shaped her. Why was that important?

Well, so Sophia lists as her main interest. the advancement of women. And so actually I thought it was far more interesting and far more appropriate for Sophia to have her story told through the women in her lives. And who are they? So we start with Maharanin Jind Khul.

She is regent of the Sikh Empire and all of her actions are motivated by ensuring the position of her son. She leads armies and she's in short a badass woman. And actually she's surrounded. by badass women. So we tell the story of her sister Catherine, who is a leading member of the suffrage movement, not a suffragette. Her sister Bamba, who chose to live in Lahore. And her whole time there, she was agitating against the British and her lovely mother who had a really tough time,

but she remained steadfast in her faith. And then, of course, there's Queen Victoria and her relationship with Sophia Anita. How close was she to Queen Victoria, who was her godmother? It's such a tangled web this one because her sisters hated Queen Victoria. They blamed her for everything that the family had lost in India, the loss of title, privilege and all their wealth. And they referred to Queen Victoria's Mrs Fagan, the receiver of stolen goods. But Sophia had a degree of gratitude because her father had become so obsessed with getting his kingdom back. She knew the only reason they didn't sink into the gutter was because Queen Victoria kind of put her hand out and saved the the children. Now, Sapphire had a special place in Queen Victoria's heart because at the beginning

she was really malleable, she was pliable, she was, you know, she was decent, she had lovely manners, she wore lovely clothes, you know, and so she liked Sophia but disliked her sisters intensely because all three of them were being spied on all the time they were growing up. The other two were incredibly, as Queen Victoria would have seen it, disloyal to the British throne, but Sapphire, not so much. She never lived long enough to see her sort of kick in the establishment with the suffragette cause and throw herself at the Prime Minister's car and try and get arrested again and again and again. In her mind, she was kind of the perfect tame Indian, if you like. So, you know, in that respect, they were close. And Polly, our mothers,

our grandmothers, the elders in our life have so much influence on often what we end up being as women and young women. How did that play out for Sophia and her relationship with Jindh Kour, her grandmother? There's this wonderful, moment in 1924 where Sophia and her sister Bamber go and return her ashes to Lahore and place them next to Ranjid Singh, her husband, a Maharaja of the Sikh Empire. So we know that she had a huge influence on her life. And I think how can you not hear the story of Jindan, which we tell so, I think quite powerfully in the exhibition through portraits, her jewelry and sketches of her, who fought for what she believed in,

who trekked across mountains escaping from the British. How can you not be inspired by that? You're also bringing together rarely seen objects and personal stories to illuminate this extraordinary life that you talk about. What can people expect to see? One of my favourite objects is actually an NWSS banner. So that's the National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies banner. So this was the movement that Catherine was a member of.

And the suffrage movement starts in 1866. And women don't get the vote at all until 1918. And this banner, which is huge, it's striking, but you can see that it's been repaired and reused again and again and again. And for me, this reminds me so powerfully that women's rights are always fought for and not just freely given. And what about for you, Anita, you're as someone who was spent many months, many years,

going through this research process, trying to shine more light on Sapphire's life. What has stood out for you or what's connected with you as someone who is of British Asian heritage as well? Well, I mean, the one thing in the exhibition that I'm particularly taken with is this pair of gloves that Sophia wore

when she was a debutante. She had her debut at Buckingham Palace, no less. And what it shows is that this was a very small woman. Like, I'm no giant, five two, right? But she's smaller than me. My hands wouldn't fit in those gloves, right? And so what that told me and what that tells me is they may be small but they be mighty. That even, you know, sort of, you know, the frailest person standing up against injustice can make a difference.

And that comes across time and time again with the Sophia story and Catherine and, you know, these wonderful women who just said, no, that is not just we fight. It's amazing. I think that's the perfect note to went to Tom. Thank you so much. Anitha Arnden, author of Sophia Princess Suffragette Revolutionary, and Polly Putnam, the curator of that new exhibition at Kensington Palace, which you can take a look at now. Thank you both for your time and your insights as well.

84844, if you want to get in touch on any of the stories that you are hearing, we look forward to reading some of your messages. Some of them are already coming in on Zoom bombing, which we will discuss a little later in the program. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. Do not ever want to have a kid. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. But our next conversation includes a frank and detailed

discussion of miscarriage and pregnancy loss, which you may find upsetting. On Monday's program, we discussed the new BBC drama series Babies, which follows a couple dealing with the complexities of baby loss. According to the NHS, one in eight known pregnancies end in miscarriage. Some women will experience more than one, and for those who do have more than three, this is known as recurrent miscarriage, impacting around one in 100 women. Finding out why recurrent miscarriage is happening is a medical process that many couples can find themselves facing. A device designed to offer more care and more dignity during miscarriage, but one that could help that process is now being used in 28 hospitals across the UK. Engineer Laura Corkeran created the miscarriage collection

cradle after she suffered the loss of her third pregnancy and was left feeling unprepared and unsupported. And she's calling for a wider rollout of the device. Laura joins me now in the studio. Welcome. Hi. Along with Chabon Quemby, Professor of Obstetrics at the University of Warwick. Welcome, Chavorn. Welcome, Laura. Thank you very much. Shavon, I'm going to start with you because I think understanding the kind of medical aspect of this is really important. Can you explain why some couples might experience recurrent miscarriage? So about half miscarriages occur because the pregnancy wasn't normal or it has a genetic abnormality. So some people recurrently lose genetically abnormal pregnancies. And that's, But other people have factors within themselves that contribute to miscarriage. The sort of things that contribute to miscarriage are things like thyroid disease, polycystic ovary disease, diabetes.

And there's also lifestyle factors that can contribute to miscarriage like being overweight, smoking, not taking your folic acid. And at what point, Shavon, do doctors decide, okay, we need to investigate this further? I mean, I mentioned three recurrent miscarriages might count, put a woman in that bracket. What's the criteria for a woman to be further investigated? So that's right. So the traditional criteria has been that you get investigated after three miscarriages. But a lot of my research is funded by the Thomas campaign, and they've had a big campaign to say that's not acceptable.

So as a result of that and the result of articles we've written, we've now changed the system. So that actually after two miscarriages, you can have some investigations that are more likely to show treatable or contributions to your miscarriage. and then you have more investigations after three. So we have a name for that called the Graded Model of Care. Information about this is on the Tommy's website. Thank you for clarifying that.

That's important information for us to have to hand. Laura, I'll bring you into the conversation now. The Independent 2023 Pregnancy Loss Review on behalf of the government recommended improving how baby remains are collected and stored when a miscarriage occurs at home and highlighting the need for better equipment. Your device is designed to help with this. Yeah, it's a class one medical device that enables women to collect baby in a respectful and dignified manner.

So it's in a semicircular shape and it sits in the toilet underneath the toilet seat so women can use it as normal. It's got a gap at the back to help eliminate faecal contamination. And in the centre of the semicircle, there's a removable sieve. So once everything's collected and it's been filtered out appropriately, then women can pick up the sieve. So it becomes a choice whether women want to engage and look or handle. And you can pick that entire Cibolp and pop into a storage container which is opaque and watertight. So it just gives women a bit of sense of control, a bit of dignity around this very awful process. I want to expand on that because some might be listening, especially if they've gone through this themselves,

thinking I'm not sure how I feel about that, what's the benefit and the details are quite difficult to listen to. what are you hoping just expand on what you're hoping it will achieve? I think it gives women a genuine choice in their care of the options that women are presented, whether it's home management where you go home and let the body manage naturally, or you can have medication to enable that process, either at home or in hospital, or you can have surgery. What has been echoed through quite a lot of people is that they wouldn't want to go home because they don't feel like they have a genuine choice, like how are they going to manage?

and that was how I felt during my own circumstance where I had to scramble, I didn't know what to do, I didn't know how to collect baby, I didn't want them in the toilet, I definitely didn't want to flush them down the toilet, and I ended up using a kitchen sieve, and then I had to store them in a Chinese takeout container

in the fridge over the weekend, as the hospital wouldn't accept them out of hours. So it was a deeply traumatising experience, and not only was it important for me to have that dignified end, it was important because that was my third miscarriage, and, you know, as Professor Quemby stated, that's the opportunity to really get some answers and perhaps prevent this happening again. So there was all this emotional and practical weight on this outcome that I did not feel prepared or equipped for. Sean, this is a good time to mention that, in fact, you created a similar version of the miscarriage collection cradle, known as Quemby's cradle.

How did yours differ? Oh, so Laura's one is much better. It's a much more sophisticated one, because obviously Laura's an engineer. and I'm so pleased that she's developed that. So before the pregnancy loss review in our clinic, I'm embarrassed to say we used to buy SIVs from a local supermarket to give women, and we thought this was inappropriate. And that kind of motivated me to think, well, there must be something better.

So I've developed a very, very simple device called the Quemby cradle, which is basically like a large spoon with holes in which you can use to collect your miscarriage tissue. but actually Laura's is much better and more sophisticated. So the NHS, as I'm sure you're aware, hasn't got a huge amount of funding at the moment. So I've made something simple and very cheap, but I would definitely say Laura's is better. And either of them, it's so important

because when I see patients in the most frequent thing I get told is the thing that hurts the most about their pregnancy losses, they lost their pregnancy down the toilet. And you can imagine that really adds to the grief and guilt. And both these devices stop that happening. And then in my role as the recurrent miscarriage expert, I really want to know whether they've lost genetically normal or abnormal pregnancies, because that would really help me decide what treatment the patients need in the next pregnancy and what I can do to prevent it again. And both these devices enable you to collect tissue, bring it back to the hospital and get answers. So I'm really delighted with Laura. She's fantastic.

You mentioned the NHS and the strain that it is under a good time to bring in a statement from the Department of Health and Social. care which says every pregnancy loss matters. We recognise the important of Laura's work to raise both awareness and develop a device that means women can miscarry with dignity at home while being able to be more in control of their experience. Losing a baby is heartbreaking and we are working to improve miscarriage care to make sure women get the support they need. This includes extending the reach of baby loss certificates to provide the recognition that can mean so much to affected families. Laura, I want to ask you a very practical question about how this would work. If you are a couple who have struggled to get pregnant, you've faced many miscarriages,

is this a device that you would ideally want doctors to give to couples to take home, should it happen again? How would they access this? Yeah, I think there's a few avenues. At the minute, it's only been used in secondary care, so in hospitals, in Geinney wards, early pregnancy assessment units, and in A&E. So we had some interesting stats that last year, one third of people experienced in miscarriage attended A&E. so they go there for help. Looking at it from a service design perspective, if a woman starts presenting with symptoms and bleeding,

they need that right there and then. They don't want to wait. They're starting to panic. And I really think there's value in having it out in the community, having it in pharmacies, GPs, community health centres where people can access it quickly and they don't have that extra burden of traveling to the hospital, maybe on the tube or taking care of other children in the process.

And it just unblocks a lot of that, access to receiving good quality care. In all of this, though, numbers, funding matters. You've been taking a look at some of the numbers and you've done some data analysts on this. What have you found? What did it tell you about the cradle? Yeah, so earlier this year, we had a independent health economic model produced

and the outcome of that was the assumptions based on one in four people miscarrying and at 50% adoption across NHS England. It would save the NHS £11.2 million each. year. It would free up 12,000 gynaecology surgery slots and it would reduce A&E admissions by 10,000. So not only is it the right thing to do for women, it's also saving the NHS money. And it's backed by the recommendations in this pregnancy loss review that the government issued in 2023. I should say we're talking about coincidence is the fact that you've both looked

at this subject so closely. You've both designed these cradles. But also, Laura, Chavonne, ended up being your consultant, but just before you met her, you took your device to Ipswich Hospital, and it was they that told you about Quemby's cradle. I mean, what did it feel like Shabon meeting two weeks later, patient and doctor? Oh, so from my point of view, it was wonderful. I was really pleased, because obviously with Laura's engineering background, she was able to build something far more sophisticated than what we built, and it's actually closer to what was recommended in the pregnancy loss review. But I think, you know, having two things available, really highlights the awareness of the need for this.

And I think the devices will bounce off each other and really help women and make people realise you do not have to miscarry down the toilet. There are solutions. And I really want Laura's vision to happen, which is that it's in every pharmacy because that's really what we would love to be able to achieve. And Laura, you turned to Chavonne

because of your own experience, which you mentioned at the start of our conversation, that you yourself had experienced miscarriages. tell us about your experience. Yeah, so I met Chavon about a year ago and I've got to say you were absolutely fantastic. It was the first time I felt heard and that's someone who had really taken the time

to understand not only miscarriage and all the possible causes and potential avenues that I could walk down but it was really taking the time to listen to my story and I think that's so important on this journey that the patient feels really heard and you can explore those options and, you know, being on this journey myself, you often hear the phrase, it's just one of those things. And I deeply believe that's incorrect because it's not, it's just something we don't necessarily understand yet.

And Professor Quembe, she's working really hard to try and understand those outcomes. So, yeah, your work is. And sharing details of this device that you've created with women who have been in your situation, who are in your situation, what do they share with you? There's a couple of things. There's one that really surprised me, and it's that lifelong impact that women have and carry. And when this story's been going out and we've had responses from women who've been through this, we've had an overwhelming number of people in their 70s and 80s who've experienced miscarriage earlier in their life. And they talk with such raw emotion and grief.

And it's not something that ever leaves. And having the ability to have this physical aspect of miscarriage taken care of, can relieve a patient of this lifetime of trauma and guilt over flushing their baby down the toilet, something they had no control over. Thank you so much for that important and sensitive conversation. Laura Corcoran, Chauquharin, Chauvin, good to have you both on Women's Hour. And it's important to say that if you are experiencing a miscarriage

or have been affected by anything discussed during this conversation, please do visit the BBC's Action Line website, where you will find links to information and support. Now it's your chance to hear again some of our inspiring stories about women helping others, whether that's helping people, the planet or their community. Today we are hearing from a woman who is passionate about saving the planet. Janet Wilona, also known as the tree-growing granny, has grown more than 4,000 trees in her garden. She gathers seeds, grows them, and then she eventually grows them in forests in her local area of North Yorkshire.

We spoke to her last year when she was nominated in the BBC's and make a difference awards in the green category. Nula asked her why she'd taken on this challenge of growing so many trees. It started out because I was deeply saddened by the destruction that the human race have caused on this beautiful planet of ours. And I wanted to do something that would somehow mitigate the problems that we've got and that mostly have been caused by a bit of ignorance, but mostly it's searching for power, profit and greed, really.

So you take it into your own hands, literally, with some seeds. I understand that you forage for them, as I mentioned. But you were keeping this whole project under wraps as well until you saw it was going to take off. It must have been so exciting to see those first shoots. It was incredibly exciting. And it was just when lockdown started. And the first week of lockdown,

I'd been staring at these pots of soil for a long, all through the winter. And that day, when lockdown was started, I saw the first green shoots come up. And I was absolutely over the moon. How hopeful that is as an image. What trees are there, are they that you are growing? Well, I try to grow mostly the native species. But I do have a few others as well.

So there's about 20 different species. There's the oak, obviously. Oh, I love the oak. I love the oak. Yes, yes. I think it's everyone's favourite. it. The hazel, the rowan, the birch, the spindle. I'd never heard of spindle. I learned that while I was doing this project. I learned it last night when I was reading about you. But how difficult is it

to grow these trees? It's not difficult at all. Basically, what you're doing is burying seeds in soil and the seeds know what to do. They will grow, at least most of them do. And this target, 5,000 in 10 years, which I believe you're actually ahead of your target, how did you pick that? Well, the first year was an experiment, really, and I had no plans for continuing. I just wanted to give it a go. And I, by the first year, it. But I, by the first year, it was an experiment, really, and I had no plans for continuing. I had no plans for continuing. I, I was that I'd got at the end of the season, I'd got about 400 trees. I'd financed that all myself. And I'd so enjoyed doing it that I thought,

if I'm going to continue, which I would like to do, I need some support. I need some sponsorship. And I was also thinking, well, how many could I grow? and I decided that I probably had 10 years of active life left. And if I could grow a few more than I'd done, say, say, 500 a year, I could then for 10 years, I could grow 5,000 trees. And that would be a reasonable legacy.

Sure it is. So that's what I put forwards. and a local firm has sponsored me since then. And you've been nominated for the BBC Local Make a Difference in the Green category. How does that feel? It's nice that I think what I would like to do is to see it spread such that other people could take on doing something similar because what I can do as an individual person is just a drop in the ocean.

but an ocean is made out of lots of drops. So if other people could do something similar. So I don't mind if it gets known about as long as it helps other people to get and do something similar. But you did keep it a secret, Janet, for quite a while before letting the cat out of the bag. Was it just a fear of failure? Well, yes, I was a bit unsure of myself

and didn't really know if it would work. and all the rest of it. But as soon as they started germinating and I could see the results, then I was happy to tell people what I was doing. And they were very supportive. And people have been very supportive and helpful right from the word go.

The wonderful Janet Wilona, also known as the tree-growing granny who went on to win the BBC's 2025 Make a Difference Awards in the Green category. And you can hear another one of our inspiring women helping others on the programme soon as well. Now, you may have come across the term Zoom bombing,

particularly when we all turn to the video calling out when we couldn't meet during the pandemic. It's been around, however, for much longer than since 2020. Zoom bombing involves crashing into a meeting and taking it over, more often than not showing some outrageous, shocking content, including pornography, and it's still happening. Now, one woman who experienced it

has put out a call to action for media platforms and the wider community to act. Lou Robey is a businesswoman specialising in change management and used to work here at the BBC. She was ironically holding a meeting on International Women's Day when she was Zoom bombed. She joins me now to discuss. And in a moment, we will also hear from Gina Neff,

Professor of Responsible AI at Queen Mary University here in London. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Lou, let's start with you. Talk us through what happened and why you understood what happened. Yes, so we had advertising. So I had advertised.

I was putting out, ironically, a live podcast where I was inviting an audience into a situation where they could have a say. It was International Women's Day. We had been advertising the event for about a month on Event Bright. And consequently, we had assumed when we put the event together that when you put something on Event Bright and you advertise it, you then integrate your Zoom link into the Event Bright app and that everything would be. monitored as you do that. So consequently what I mean by that is that you put up the event

and you ask for quite a lot of information. People have to then register, put that information in and then 30 minutes before the event they get given the Zoom link. So we should be fully protected by asking for all of the data, the information and then the Zoom link going out.

I was asked the question, did I check all of the people that had registered? I look through it, but obviously I didn't go through every single email address. And again, I made the assumption that both of those apps were secure. We then went into the live event about two or three minutes, four minutes into the event. The only gentleman on the event that was there to support us.

And I will just say that these were International Women's Days events and they were all about social justice and helping people to have a voice. The gentleman that was talking at the time, his screen was being shared, I mentioned that his screen was being shared and he said that he didn't know that his screen was being shared he couldn't see anything. He'd actually been hijacked. And then the content that came over at the time

onto the screen was beyond shocking. Absolutely shocking. It was a real indictment against violence against women. And so we cut the call. We asked everyone to dial back in. We went through the same measures again and it happened again. It happened again. Yes.

What was the reaction from people on the call? Well, I think we were all shaking. at that point. To be honest, we were so utterly shocked that it could happen again. At this point, I will just mention that I checked every single email address coming in, but they had already taken over and hacked two of my speaker's accounts. Goodness. What I've also learned from this exercise is that those, because it was advertised for over a month, the hackers had already assumed the personas of those people coming into the call. So there was no way I would have been able to safeguard myself, even if I knew all of the

safeguards that I needed to do. You aren't alone in your experience. A few of our listeners have got in touch. This message says we were Zoom bombed during a memorial event for my sister. She was a human rights activist who was forcibly disappeared in Mexico in March 2021. A year later, we organised a hybrid event to raise awareness of her case and use Zoom and were bombed with the most vile pornographic content ever. I'm so sorry to read that.

And this message says, Zoom bombing. It happened in a meeting I attended early in lockdown. and I was very upset and I was haunted by the image I saw. My adult children were wonderfully supportive and sent me eye bleacher videos of bunnies. That really helped. I now know to shut my laptop immediately, but it hasn't reoccurred.

You aren't alone clearly, and therefore you have this call to action. What are you demanding? Yeah, so first of all, I just want to say that over 50,000 people responded to my LinkedIn post, which is not normally an app that goes particularly viral, so I just really want to make that point. we are demanding time with those platforms.

Event Bright have been, they haven't answered me. I believe they've answered you, but they haven't actually answered me. I want to make that point. We've had our first meeting with Zoom. They have been exceptionally good and responsive, and we're looking to see what we can do to turn the safeguards around. So I think the point I want to make is at the moment the safeguards are on us as the user.

And what we believe is that we should be safeguarded before we start to use their platforms. So that is really what we're demanding. were demanding conversations because most of the people that have come forward didn't know that there was a whole community around the world, actually. This is a global issue.

It is not a national issue. Yes. And we have had responses, as you've highlighted, from Event Bright and from Zoom. Event Bright told us we were concerned to learn about the disruption of the event and have been in contact with the organisers. Keeping our community safe is a priority

and we have permanently blocked the account associated with this incident. We provide this. tools for organisers to manage their attendees. However, the technical security and execution of a virtual meeting are managed by the host through their chosen video conferencing platform. In this instance, the individual registered as a standard attendee, and there were no prior indicators of intent to violate our community guidelines. We remain committed to working with organisers to ensure that they have the resources needed to vet their events effectively. And very, very briefly, I'll bring you the Zoom statement. We are deeply upset about this

incident and the impact it had on both the organiser and attendees. We strongly condemn this behaviour maintaining an equal, respectful and inclusive online environment for all our users is a top priority. As per our protocol process, we actively investigated the specific incidences and took action against the bad actors. We are taking, or we take meeting disruptions. Extremely seriously, I'll also add one final line from Zoom. They say bad actors can often target high-profile events such as International Women's Day, and we are committed to proactively publicising the security controls to ensure our customers are fully aware of the protections available to them.

Gina, let me bring you into our conversation. How does, practically speaking, such content infiltrate Zoom meetings? Well, first, we have to recognize this is a form of abuse, and it's a form of abuse that targets women. Women are targeted overwhelmingly for what we call chronic abuse online. So companies make policies and strategies that are about individual incidents and individual people, but we see women and other people in marginalized communities overwhelmingly bear the brunt of these attacks. And they have real impact on people's careers.

For example, 73% of women in journalism in a report by UNESCO reported that they have been attacked through online, harms through these kinds of online harms. Women politicians report this kind of abuse and that it's more intense and more severe than their male counterparts. So this abuse is impacting women. And Lou, the abuse that you suffered and on your call, no one should have to go through this. The tools, however, are limited because they're tools that help us to lock down and create privacy rather than manage how we need to have our visibility to support the work we want to do. So those tools are put into the user's responsibility and not on the company's responsibility. Safety should not be a premium feature. For many people using individual Zoom accounts,

for example, you have to navigate those safety tools, whereas if you're paying for a webinar account, if you're paying for these bigger accounts, you have those tools baked in. And that's what we should be pressing for. The company is to do more to keep women safe online. If there is someone trying to infiltrate these meetings, I'm trying to better understand how they would overcome these protections that you say that you talked about, Lou, verifying the accounts or checking at least as much as you could

that they were sound, what can an individual do or how do the individuals get in in the first place? So these are really sophisticated people that are doing this. I think we have to understand. I just want to make one point that the police are taking this incredibly seriously and I would just say that if anybody has been through this moment like myself, the police do want to hear from you. It is a crime and they do want to take this extremely seriously. But I think to your point, the fact is that we should be safeguarded first. This is not about us trying to understand or pay for further lessons, by the way, which is what was offered

initially, for me to be, you know, why don't you pay come on one of our programmes, we'll show you how to use our app properly. I'm thinking, well, I've been using it for years. Actually, why am I not safeguarded from the moment I buy in to what you're offering me? And also the other thing that I was quite astounded by was that the relationship between Zoom and Eventbrite is almost non-existent. So there isn't a partnership deal. They're not actually saying we're going to do this together.

So although we're actually putting out events online, as are many, many, many people, they're not doing this together. So I think they have to come together as well, so we're calling for that. And the best practices are to lock your vent down, to have a Zoom, a webinar account that allows for only speakers to have the access to voice, the access to video, the access to screen sharing. In this particular case, it was someone hacking a speaker account who was able to do that. So, you know, there's a lot of work that could be done. and we need companies to share the data of the prevalence of these events and how we can address them because we're now not working in a land

where we can get transparency about what is actually happening online. And what do you want to see from these big tech firms? How can safety be kind of inbuilt into the technology in the first place or better safety? Well, the Online Safety Act was promised to help make the UK one of the safest places to be online. And we have a lot of work to do to make that act have teeth. One of the things that has been called for is better transparency, better data sharing with the companies. And my team have a report that will release on Tuesday where we're saying data's not found. The data is simply not there to help us independently scrutinize how well companies are doing with this.

We also want to see them build these safety tools in as safety by design. design, build them, bake them into the tools themselves, rather than ask individuals to keep themselves safe in a place where women are being chronically exposed to abuse and harm. We'll leave it there. Jeanine F., Professor of Responsible AI at Queen Mary University of London and Lou Robey, a businesswoman specialising in change management. Thank you both for your time and bringing that to subject to our attention. That is it from today's edition of Woman's Hour.

Anita is back with you tomorrow, but from myself and the rest of the Women's Hour team. Thank you for your company and do enjoy the rest of your day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Do join us again next time. A group of men ran in with machetes. I'm Livy Haydock and from BBC Sounds and BBC Radio 5 Live. This is Gangster, the story of Georgie Pye. The scene of the killing near a Chinese bookshop is being flooded with detectives. Welcome to the world of the triads.

If the triads are coming out of you, you're done. Where loyalty is sworn in blood. Gangster, the story of Georgie Pye. Listen first on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.