Woman's Hour - Women in Jazz, What women think about during sex, Japan: Women in meetings, One punch assaults.

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

Are women in the UK jazz scene facing discrimination and sexual harassment? Sarah Raine, an academic and anthropologist, carried out research of ten interviews with anonymised female jazz musicians of a “notable level of success” who performed at the Cheltenham Jazz Festival event in 2019. Emma discusses the issues with Sarah, who is an academic at Edinburgh Napier University and researcher into gender equality in the music industry and with Jas Kayser, who is a jazz drummer and musician.In her last book, Don't Hold My Head Down, Lucy-Anne Holmes, writer and founder of the 'No More Page 3' campaign, described her “sexual odyssey” and compiled a list of things that would improve her sex life. She has now gone a step further and collected the testimonies of 51 women around the world, revealing their innermost thoughts and feelings during sex. There are women of all ages and sexualities. Lucy-Anne joins Emma to talk about the very varied experiences of female sexuality. Just days after Japan's Olympics chief was forced to resign over sexist comments, a prominent politician has announced that women will be invited to its all-male meetings - as long as they don't speak. What does this say about equality in Japan? BBC correspondent Mariko Oi joins Emma to discuss.Dehenna Davison was just 13 years old when her father Dominic died as a result of a single punch at a pub in Sheffield in 2007. Fourteen years on Dehenna, who is now Conservative MP for Bishop Auckland, has launched an all-party parliamentary group to investigate the impact of one punch assaults and to try and improve the lives of victims and their families. The first meeting will take place on Tuesday. Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. It is Roadmap Day in England. The Prime Minister will speak to the House of Commons this afternoon, host a televised press conference this evening, laying out the government's roadmap for easing lockdown restrictions in England. And in that spirit, what do you want Boris Johnson to say? What do you need to change about the way you're living right now?

You may say absolutely everything, but what is the one thing that's perhaps at the top of that list? What could make a difference? Tell us here at Women's Hour. We're listening. You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or if you prefer, email us through the Woman's Hour website or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour to get in touch. But talking of talking, which we do rather a lot here on Radio 4 and on Woman's Hour, on today's programme, we hear about a new type of meeting in Japan where women can attend but not speak.

Days after Japan's Olympics chief was forced to resign over sexist comments, the country's governing party has decided to invite women to attend key meetings as long as they don't talk. The Liberal Democratic Party proposed allowing five female lawmakers to observe its all-male board meetings. They cannot talk during the meeting,

only submit opinions afterwards. Your take, please. And also your experiences too. As a woman in meetings, do you feel your view is heard differently, if heard at all? Do you feel it's completely the same? Perhaps if you are a man in meetings with women, do you now think about the fact that maybe sometimes they are treated differently, or perhaps you feel it as completely the same. Tell us your experience of being a woman in meetings or being in meetings with women. There's some stories already coming in on this.

Again, text us on 84844 or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Roz says, I was a partner in London law firm and we had a meeting with another firm about a possible merger. I was the only woman there and a chap from the other firm asked, do you pour the coffee? Another one here on Twitter says, I remember so clearly coming out with an idea in a meeting once

where I was the only woman. There was a general murmuring of agreement and I saw it go in the minutes. Five minutes later, a senior bloke came out with my idea. There was huge agreement. Excellent idea. Well done, etc. Vicky says, though, I'm treated with respect and no differently from male colleagues

of a similar level. I have noticed, though, that some of my female colleagues expect to be treated differently on our defensive and chippie in meetings, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Well, where do you fit into all of that? Let us know. Keep those messages coming in. Very interesting to read them. And also on today's programme,

women and jazz. What is it like to be a female jazz musician? I'm going to have a real treat for you with the 25-year-old drummer star Jazz Kayser, who's going to be on the programme and joining us shortly. But first, losing your father at any age is difficult, to say the least. But Deanna Davison was just 13 years old when her father, Dominic, died as a result of a single punch at a pub in Sheffield in 2007. He was just 35. 14 years on, Deanna, who's now a Conservative MP for Bishop Auckland, incidentally one of the youngest MPs in the House of Commons and a so-called Red Tory, as she is the first Conservative to represent her constituency since it was created in 1885.

She's now launched an all-party parliamentary group to investigate the impact of one-punch assaults, looking at sentencing, improving the lives of victims and their families and educating people to stop one-punch assaults from happening in the first place. The first meeting of that group will take place tomorrow. Deanna, good morning. Good morning, Emma.

Tell us about your father, first of all. Oh, gosh, there are so many amazing things I could say, but I mean, I'm his daughter, I would say that. But he and I were really close. He was a really hardworking guy, definitely gave me that sense of work ethic. Incredibly generous, would do anything to help a friend or a neighbour. Cracking sense of humour, which, you know, he was brilliant at winding me up as a kid but um as a result we

got on like an absolute house on fire and uh yeah we were kind of in many ways more like brother and sister than father and daughter with uh how much we used to wind my mum up too so um a really really good egg for sure and where were you when you found out what had happened to your dad? Because it all happened very quickly, didn't it? It did, yeah. I was staying at my nan's house, which I usually did on a weekend. And my dad had been at the pub with his friends, which again was a very usual thing.

He was due to go back and have a takeaway with my mum and everything was as any normal weekend when I was that age. We got a phone call saying that my dad had passed out and people were really concerned so my nan and I jumped in the car and drove to the pub. By the time we got there he was already in an ambulance and we saw the blue light sort of whizzing away. We got to the hospital still kind of no idea what had really happened and the paramedics and doctors had tried to resuscitate him for about 45 minutes in the hospital and were unable to. And so kind of just like that, my dad's life had ended

and it took a good kind of probably 12 hours before any bits of the story got pieced together and we realised that actually a punch had been thrown and that could have been the cause of it all. Did you know the man who'd punched him? Did you know anything about the circumstances when that was put together for you? Did anyone fill those details in?

Initially, very little. It was all a very muddled picture. But, you know, from what I understand, you know, a guy had walked across the pub and struck my dad. And we know from the coroner's report that the punch was what caused my dad's death. The force of the punch, exactly where it had hit him. It was just the complete wrong combination of factors which caused a blood vessel in the side of his neck to rupture and killed him instantly. So he was punched in the side of his neck to rupture and um so he killed him instantly so he was punched in the side of his neck he was punched sort of to the side of his his jaw but um the the

force and the way his head kind of jerked to one side uh caused that damage and um you know he was probably dead before he hit the ground i want to come back to that in a moment not specifically about your father but just because this is about single punches and it's very specific I wondered if I could ask because of the way that this happened and the the suddenness of it and I'm very aware that you you were very young as well do you know what do you remember what the last thing you said to your dad was no I don't um that is um it's something I'm still struggling with to this day to be honest I don't remember the last conversation we had um I now I don't really even remember the last time I saw him which is really bizarre but it was just such a normal week it was probably when he was heading

out to work or something but no I don't remember at all because there's nothing to prepare you for that so the memories are just a blur really. How did it change you age 13 what would happen to your dad? Um at 13 you know most kids are thinking about you know school and boys and clothes or whatever it might be and I went overnight from that to this very strange sense of um kind of perspective you know everything else just seemed irrelevant um I uh grew up overnight basically um and became very much there to support my family everything became about supporting my mum and my nan like my dad's mum through that really difficult process because you know the shock was unbelievable and it's something that 14 years down the line I still don't think I've got over and ever will. Because you were an only child and he was an only child.

Is that right? Yes. Yeah. Which of course makes that even more, you know, the loss for your nan even more. Completely. Yeah. Her and my dad were incredibly close right throughout my dad's life. And she never really recovered from it to be honest you know she learned to deal with the grief a little bit better but no certainly

for the sort of I can't remember how many years that followed before she passed away but no she never got over that and we hear from a lot of parents that you just never get over losing a child because it's not the way it's supposed to be. Did that make you want to be a politician? Straight away, no, because at the time at sort of 13, 14, it made me want to do something to try and change this, to stop other families going through it, to try and make it easier for other families. But I didn't really know how to channel that.

So I thought about essentially joining the police. The local police were incredibly supportive for my family especially our family liaison officers and huge shout out to Karen Cocker who's just retired but who was really incredible at helping my family get through that it was a few years later that I sort of accidentally discovered politics I knew nothing about it beforehand um I realized actually this is a way that I could get involved and really try and drive through some changes and that's what I mean you're using your position now. You'll do other things, I know, but in particular about this,

because we should say at this point that the man who threw the punch was charged with manslaughter, but claimed self-defence at the trial and was acquitted. How difficult did that make moving on for your family that perhaps you felt that something else should have happened at that trial? It made it impossible in those early stages because, you know, during the trial, the man had admitted throwing the punch. The coroner's report outlined it was the punch that had killed my dad. And it just felt as though there was no justice at all. You know,

the witness reports were contradictory, but obviously due process was followed and the jury have to believe beyond reasonable doubt that that a certain chain of events had happened and they couldn't come to that conclusion so you know I don't blame them per se and but it did make it really difficult because it felt like you know one minute my dad my really fit and healthy 35 year old dad was was there the next he was gone and never to return. And that it just felt like there was absolutely no justice for what had happened. And yes, I was just going to say at the same time,

there are, you know, fights happen all the time. And then there are particular circumstances, aren't there, where certain types of fights happen. And I suppose what you've got to look at with something like this, and now I've been also educating myself about single punch deaths, is that, you know, it could just be a punch within a fight that was, if I could put it like this, relatively normal, as opposed to trying to kill someone. Yeah, absolutely. And that intent is what makes the sort of prosecuting in these cases really difficult.

And that's why we want to carry out this full investigation to get a really broad picture, not just from victims. You know, victims and victims' families' experiences are really important to take on board. But also, you know, from lawyers for the prosecution, from lawyers for the defence, police officers, judges, but also we're keen to talk to perpetrators to get their experiences, their thoughts,

whether they feel they were unfairly convicted or not. I think it's important we get that full wide picture before we start coming to any conclusions. And to get that full wide picture, how many people do we think have died of single punches? What's the data on it? It's very difficult to find any exact data because often they're reported under sort of general assaults, for example. So that's something we

want to look into, whether we could have a sort of separate category of reporting for this, just to give us a clearer picture moving into the future. But one figure I saw was 80 over 10 years. I suppose the point is to just to give some context. This isn't hugely prevalent. That's not to diminish it. That's right. I mean, these things are still incredibly rare. And so the changes that we're seeking will impact a very small number of people. But the people they will impact, you know, that impact will be huge. And, you know, we'll hopefully, depending on what it is we come up with in the outcome of this report, will hopefully help to give families a little bit more peace as they try and move on from these awful incidents.

What do you think your dad would make of you doing this? I don't know. You know, every day I try and do what I can to make him proud. And I just really hope that if he is somewhere watching that he feels that way. Loads of people are getting in touch with us, of course, about Roadmap Day and what they're perhaps looking forward to. I was just very struck by one detail, if I can, about your life before politics, because, you know, people have lives before they get into the House of Commons, as you've been sharing about Hut, you've worked in a variety of places that are, you know, well known on the high street, the high streets in real trouble, you're also in your 20s still. And I just wondered, you know, what, what would you be doing now with the high street the way it is? Because a lot of young people listening to this don't really know how to come out of this pandemic. I mean, where would you work? If I wasn't doing this job, I have no idea.

I mean, I've always been the sort of person that wants to work whatever the job might be. So I'd be looking for literally any opportunity I could. But it is difficult. And, you know, this pandemic has thrown so much up in the air. So many people who are in really stable, secure jobs now feel like they have an uncertain future. And obviously it's government's job to get that right off for as much support as possible it's just are you sad about the state of the high street i suppose because we're we're looking at something that we've not really seen in modern times completely yeah um having spent a number of really happy years working on the high street it is um it is a very sad thing to see and obviously the the focus now has to be on helping as many

businesses survive through this so that things that are on the high street, you know, continue to be there and continue to provide those jobs and that support. But also, you know, schemes like the Future High Streets Fund and the Towns Fund, just trying to give high streets a bit of a boost to hopefully encourage future investment, more job creation, but also make our town and city is a nicer place to visit. We will see what the Chancellor has to say about that. Of course, we have to wait for the Prime Minister to announce that roadmap in England, but perhaps we could talk again and have you back on Women's Hour to talk specifically about that red wall as well and some of the desires of your constituents. Deanna Davidson, thank you very much for talking to us today

about this new group, and I'm sure we'll speak to you again. Thanks, Emma. Now, women in the UK jazz scene, what is it like for them facing discrimination sexual harassment these are questions here let's see what some of the answers are because Sarah Raine an academic and anthropologist has been carrying out interviews with 10 anonymous female jazz musicians of notable levels of success who performed at the Cheltenham Jazz Festival in 2019 and the women Sarah spoke to found the scene to be male

dominated. We'll hear a bit more about that from Sarah Raine who's an academic at Edinburgh Napier University and a researcher into gender equality in the music industry in just a moment. But we're also joined by Jazz Kayser who's a 25 year old jazz drummer. She's featured in

bands with Ashley Henry, Georgia Smith also starred alongside Lenny Kravitz in the official video for his song Low. And jazz has released her own debut EP, Unforced Rhythm of Grace, last year. Let's start with a bit of music. Thank you. jazz i could just play that for for the rest of our time here it's so great to hear it what are we listening to there jazz oh that's a tune of mine called Bella's Words. Lovely. Really glad you're enjoying it. Really great to hear it. And I should say, I live with a drummer.

He's not at all of your level, but I do have drums in the house. So it's a regular sound. But the neighbours obviously love us. But we'll come back to drumming in just a moment. I wonder if we could go to Sarah first to get an insight into what you found sarah what what was the scene for you um so it's quite a complex thing and and it was over a quite a short period of time so it was only a nine month project but um it was quite damning really for things that we found um it was a high level of gender discrimination amongst the women that i spoke to it was an under-representation of women on the

festival stage, although a lot of festivals are trying very hard and getting behind Key Change, which is a great organisation and movement. But it was generally quite a depressing picture, and in 2019, you'd rather have hoped that the experiences of women wouldn't be as negative. Does that chime with you? Jess, we'll get more detail in a moment. But, you know, did you feel it was a male-dominated industry when you went into it and how's the reality been? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely been a lot of realisations now that I'm older. I'm sort of getting into it.

I started jumping when I was nine years old and definitely was naive to, you know, if it was a male or female-oriented kind of industry, which I think has been nice, you know, being oblivious to that. But then I think has been nice you know being oblivious to that but then I think uh growing up you know it's been really clear that wow you know it's so rare to see a female drummer especially drum something like that you know I've had a lot of issues with people kind of assuming that I'm singers or I'm a singer right and things like that so um yeah but yeah is it is it is it right that you once auditioned and a guy got it because well tell us

more yeah well yeah I'd love to tell you about that story actually but um that was during school and and actually my amazing percussion teacher she was a woman she just was very supportive but she organized a blind audition probably for well knowing that this is the only way that could have an equal kind of result um but turned out out she met with me afterwards and said, OK, so you won the blind audition, but we're going to give it to the guy. And, you know, the reasons for that are kind of difficult. You know, it's never set in stone of why that happened. But it seems to be kind of clear now that there's,

maybe because I was a female drummer, that I wasn't given the same chance. Did you feel like that wasn't the instrument you should have gone for in any way? You obviously did go for it, but you know, you make that point. There's kind of layers of this about what women are meant to do in the music world and in jazz. Yeah, I mean, absolutely not. No, I feel so it was like completely the right thing to be playing the drums, you know, and I have some amazing role models like Ter Carrington and Cindy Blackman, who also like, you know, badass woman on the drums. And yeah, there's actually nothing strange about a girl playing an instrument in jazz, like saxophone or drums.

No, no. And of course, you don't think that. I suppose it's just what others may have thought. And I'm very struck with some of the messages we're getting in about our next discussion about what women have had said to them in meetings. You know, women who are partners in law firms have been asked, are they there to pour the coffee? You may have had similar where you, as you say, been asked, are you here to sing or, I don't know, do something else? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, people, I guess, will make you feel that it's more of a masculine instrument

or you have to be stronger or bigger or more macho to be able to do something like that, definitely. Sarah, to talk about the roots of jazz, you know, women were at the centre of it, weren't they? Yes, and yeah, this is something that I think about a lot, how jazz histories are written and how they're mediated, how they're shared amongst people. And it's amazing how many

of those women's stories are removed in the sort of simplifying and the mythologizing of jazz and it's it's a huge problem and it comes down to what we imagine jazz to be but also the sort of the great figures that came out of jazz and also the people that write about it and a jazz scholarship is also very male dominated so there's sort of a combination of all these different factors come into play and if we also just look at the the stage and the live performance the sort of spectacle of the live performance we miss all of these other people that contributed to jazz and some of them are men some of them are women so like you're thinking about the venue owners and the people who maybe promote so you're missing a huge part through

these different and complex ways of creating histories and telling stories. Did you come up with any thoughts on how this might get better? Because I kind of wish you were telling us this, that this was from 15, 20 years ago, but this is a contemporaneous view. Yes. Yeah, but I think there are some green shoots.

I think there's some amazing grassroots organisations that are doing brilliant work in the UK and elsewhere. I think that these conversations that we're having right now will have an impact. And I'm really pleased that the report has been taken up in this sense, because I've seen a lot of younger jazz musicians and more established having these conversations on social media. And these are the things that need to happen. I think it also needs to not only be musicians that are talking about it, of all backgrounds and genders, but it also has to be the promoters, the festivals. We have to start having quite hard and difficult discussions,

honestly and clearly, to try and resolve these things. But I think it's beginning. Jazz, I'm really aware though that, you know, we're in a pandemic, that shadow is over everything, isn't it? And it doesn't, you know, it's hitting live performances in a very, very hard way. We're all missing watching you and coming to those sorts of events. But when you're having those hard conversations that Sarah says need to happen, who should they be with?

For instance, should it be with the artist who has the power to perhaps pick who's on stage with them should it be the promoters should it be the agents can you give us an insight into kind of how you get selected for jobs yeah well I feel like yeah it's a difficult one isn't it because I guess everyone has a responsibility on a different level but everyone approaches it differently because sometimes you know it's your job to if you're a promoter or booking agent then you should be focusing on booking and finding people out there if you look deep enough it's not it's not difficult to find female musicians or whatever to represent the venues and all of that and give sort of that's why women in jazz are just incredible because

they've given me so many opportunities to kind of take my band as a leader and do gigs um but also yeah I've I've with the for the past few years I've been kind of trying my band as a leader and do gigs. But also, yeah, for the past few years, I've been kind of trying to step in the role as representing females and kind of speaking up a bit more about it because I realise that as a female, mixed-race female drummer, that is my responsibility. And I do have a platform that I can use to kind of, you know, speak up about these issues.

So I guess it's important for everybody to find their way that makes, you know, the comfortable way. Or even not comfortable, I guess. Yes. Even if it doesn't make you feel comfortable, it should still be something that you should, you know, step into those shoes and kind of speak up. I was listening to your musical last night and to get to get ready, you know, it's lovely to have an excuse to kind of get into somebody's work. And that's a great joy of what I get to do. But somebody had written to a guy actually and said I can't believe you've got her on she's amazing you know so so you are you do have that platform I suppose it's just another pressure isn't it as well yeah oh definitely I think it is a lot of pressure because obviously you know kind of you want everything just to be great and equal and 50 50 and you know but there is a lot of work to do. So you've got to take on that pressure

and get it to where you want it to be. Well, we should say, Sarah, your report said overwhelmingly the experiences of women in jazz were more positive than negative. So we should also say that, shouldn't we, Sarah? Yes, I think that's important. You know, this is still their scene. It's still their work.

It's still their career. They still have amazing connections and brilliant band members and they create amazing support and brilliant band members. And they create amazing support networks, as anyone does. So, yeah, that is we have to sort of draw some sort of hope from that. But also, I think we can't we can't forget that it's very difficult for most of those women. Nine out of 10, even though it's a small sample.

That's that's quite impressive, really, isn't it? Yes. Impactful to remember. Well, Sarah Raine, thank you for your time. Jazz Cater, thank you to you. And I'm sure we'll get an update on women in jazz at some point soon. And it's just an excuse to play some wonderful music here on Women's Hour. Now, days after Japan's Olympics chief was forced to resign over sexist comments, the country's governing party has decided to invite women to attend key meetings as long as they don't speak.

The Liberal Democratic Party, LDP, proposed allowing five female lawmakers to observe its all-male board meetings. They can't talk during the meeting, only submit their opinions afterwards. You have been getting in touch on this. I gave you a flavour of some of this before. There was a man, I've just got a message here. Hey, that moment when a man reiterates an idea a woman has previously raised and he gets all the praise for it, it's known as heap eating, to rhyme with repeating and I'd wager almost every single woman has got their own infuriating anecdote about that, that's come in on Twitter, I've not heard of heap eating, I'm happy I said it right. Peter says as a junior manager who often attends board meetings I often saw my ideas taken up only after they were repeated by a top manager but I'm happy I said it right. Peter says, as a junior manager who often attends board meetings, I often saw my ideas taken up only after they were repeated by a top manager.

But I'm a man. It just doesn't happen to women. It doesn't only just happen to women. It's about rank, not gender. But of course, gender may influence rank. Well, I spoke to Mariko Oi, who's Japanese and a BBC reporter in Singapore. When we spoke earlier this morning, I asked if she could explain that decision in Japan to admit some women to all-male party meetings.

Well, I can't explain to you what was behind that decision. As you know, just a couple of days before that decision was made, the head of the Tokyo Olympics organising committee, he was practically forced to resign because of what he said about women he said that basically women talk too much in the meetings and that he finds it rather annoying I have to say I grew up in Japan I left when I was 16 so it didn't exactly surprise me if I'm very honest when I first heard Mr Mori's comment about how women talk too much I thought you know maybe not exactly what my

grandfather would say but you know he kind of reminds me of that. If I may let's come back to that in just a moment because there'll be people listening to this thinking I didn't know that the ruling party of Japan didn't have women in the room already. Well so there are some elected members of politicians in the LDP but these are the board members who make the most important decisions of this party. And up until now, they didn't have any female politicians attending those meetings. But now they decided that they will allow those women to at least attend, but they can't, they must not speak. They can apparently submit opinions afterward, but that really showed how they were trying to address the issue, if you like, but at the same time, they didn't seem to know

how that would appear to the public. Is that different to the cabinet, if you like, the equivalent of the people making the decision for the country? Yes, it's different. This is the different meeting. So these are the senior board members of the party who are meeting to make what's important in the political party. When you're talking about cabinet, when you're speaking about ministers, the prime minister has been making an effort to at least appoint a couple of female politicians to those ministerial roles, though critics would argue that it's nowhere near enough. And are those women allowed to talk in the cabinet meeting?

I believe so, yes. And we have heard, you know, a lot of those female politicians speak in those meetings or afterward as well. And, you know, the woman who has replaced Mr. Morey, the head of the Olympic Organized Committee, she's also a woman. She was an Olympic minister. So there have been a number of female politicians who have held very senior positions in the party. I suppose taking a step back, when you talk about that's a view you could imagine your grandpa, your grandfather holding, you know, there may also be people listening thinking, I'm sure that my grandfather may have thought women should talk a bit less. But there does seem to be a time lag, specifically here, just because we've had our attention drawn to it in Japan around how women are expected to be

can be seen, but perhaps not heard that much. Does that chime with your experience? Yes, I have to say when I first moved to Australia at the age of 16, I felt like there's a generational gap. So there's almost Japan is one generation behind where to me Australia was. So my host mother, who I lived with, she was already working, she was a career woman, whereas my mother and my grandmothers have always been a stay at home mother, whereas my generation, I have finally started working. So that is something that I've noticed. And you know, as you say, many of our grandfathers may hold something of a similar thought, but at the same time, they didn't exactly say it. You

know, my grandfather would never say it as the head of the Olympics organising committee. You know, he said it in, you know, maybe family gatherings, and we all kind of say, Grandpa, you can't say that, you know, that will be seen as very sexist in these days. And now we have this governing body, the board of the leading party in Japan, having women in the room, but not speaking. Is that actually going to happen? I mean, can you imagine that being the reality? Yes, it wouldn't. It doesn't surprise me, I must say. Again, the fact that these senior members of the party, they are, and I don't want to sound sexist or I don't know whether that's the right word for it um and from their point of view you know I wouldn't be surprised if they made that decision thinking you know we're making this very revolutionary decision allowing women to speak

not kind of realizing what age we're living in if you know what I mean. But at the same time, it's a tactic that they've used many times before, just almost increasing the number of women in the cabinet or as lawmakers just for the sake of it, just for the sake of increasing the number of women, instead of thinking about, if we really want to increase the number of female politicians in Japan, what do we need to change? The bigger thing, even if you know nothing about Japan and any of its culture or any of the issues that you've described that people can relate to about this story,

or there's sort of two stories, isn't there? The first started with the Olympics and now the response here by the leading party. Is women taking up space in meetings and women being able to talk without thinking that either they're going to be interrupted or viewed differently from men? What do you have to say about that? Your experience, perhaps, I don't know if it's in your working life or things that you've heard from women in Japan or from women elsewhere? That kind of casual sexism, it happens everywhere.

You know, I've been said something similar before in, you know, work meetings. I've always worked for a foreign company, but I've still had, you know, Japanese colleagues saying something that I find a bit awkward. Like what? Or at work. You know, I think especially what struck me when I was in my 20s, especially was, oh, you know, when are you going to get married? When are you going to have children? And once I have my children, they're like, oh, why are you still working?

Shouldn't you be at home looking after your children? And that's probably that's not just Japan, I assume. It probably happens everywhere as well. But those comments, you just sit there, you know, laugh, shrug it off, especially in Japan, I think, I'm 39. Now, you know, if you speak to Japanese women in their 50s, 60s, the women's job in those business meeting was to bring a cup of tea. And that had to actually be changed, those rules have to be changed so that women didn't have to bring in everyone's, you know, all the guests cup of tea, you know, they could get it themselves. You know, that's why when I say, even though I don't want to sound ageist about it, you know, when those men in their 70s, 80s, they still have that mindset that women in their views, are attending their meetings, to bring them, you know, something that they want to drink and maybe sit there quietly

and, you know, nod and smile. Mariko Oi, who's a Japanese and a BBC reporter in Singapore, putting us in the picture on that one, about meetings, a message here, women do it to other women too. My female boss is always doing it to me. So much for the sisterhood, eh? And Nikki says, I went to a meeting about our severely learning disabled daughter.

My husband was with me and every time the senior manager agreed with my point, he would address my husband as if he'd made them. And just a word on what you're looking forward to potentially with the easing of restrictions with Boris Johnson getting ready to address around England and what's happening there and the government's easing. I want to be with my

grandchildren, says Christine. And many messages to that effect coming in about family. Another one here, it would make a huge difference to be able to go back to university and be able to use the workshops and studios we've paid for. What is happening to students is outrageous, says Bea. Good morning to you. And good morning to Angela.

Top priority, getting children back to school. I don't mind if the shops and the pubs remain closed. Our children's mental health and education are more important. Home schooling can never replace a school environment. Well, thinking about homeschooling, I am well aware there are plenty more children than usual who are at home. The next conversation will feature descriptions of sex and desire and, you know, very candid too, as we always are here on Woman's Hour. So if that is not for you or those around you, please turn the radio down. If it is, turn it up. The question here then, what do women really think about during sex? The person

on top of them, their to-do list, if they've put the bins out, are they doing it right? In her last book, Don't Hold My Head Down, Lucianne Holmes, the writer and campaigner she found at the No More Page Three campaign, described her sexual odyssey and compiled a list of things that would improve her sex life. She's now gone a step further and collected the testimonies of 51 women around the world, revealing their innermost thoughts and feelings during sex. A new book called Women on Top of the World, What Women Think About When They're Having Sex. Lucianne, good morning. Good morning. Why did you want to do this? Well, it was actually my editor, Katie Polain's idea. And she came to me, she approached me with it. I think because I'd written Don't Hold My Head Down, she knew I was comfortable with the subject matter.

And she approached me with it. And I just loved it. This has been such an honour for me to do, to speak to these women, many of whom hadn't really probably even thought about sex in this way, but I think found it quite liberating and even oddly therapeutic to talk about this aspect of themselves with a stranger. And many did it with just such a beautiful spirit of womanhood. Some people had been through things that, you know, maybe trauma or aspects, things happening to them that made them feel very alone. And they were talking to me for it to go into a book in the hope that it might reach other women who would be feeling similarly alone,

and it might give them some comfort. Or might reach men and help men pleasure women more. You know, there is that. I mean, just to read you one of your own quotes or a quote from one of the women you spoke to to share with our listeners. It's your first entry, Melodies, age 19. Again, I'm just doing that warning if you haven't turned on the radio yet. Before I started having sex,

I used to think it was this wonderful, mind-blowing thing. I had no idea how awkward it would actually be. She talks about her ex-boyfriend. He could never locate the clitoris. Once I figured I'd help guide him, I put his fingers on it so he knew where it was. He managed to rub it twice, then slipped off and started rubbing my labia next to it instead.

He had no idea he wasn't on it anymore. I couldn't stop myself from laughing. Yeah. The book is in age order. So we start with Melody, as you said, and we got to a woman of 74, Lucy. And that was a really interesting thing to me to sort of just hear how complicated often and loaded sex is for younger women. So much talk about so much of their thoughts is about, am I doing this right?

Do I do? How do I smell? Am I taking too long? Worrying that they're not orgasming because I think they think their partner expects an orgasm and so much of them not even thinking about their own needs and how they're feeling. I spoke to an American woman called Rose who's 26 and she sort of summed it up to me, for me, in quite a sort of heartbreaking way because I said to her, how do you feel at the end of sex when sex is finished? And she says, oh, well, I feel like I've performed well and it's been good. He had a really good time.

And I said, well, do you ever think about whether you enjoyed it? And she said, oh, no, I haven't, but I might do that next time. I think there's so much for women is yes, it's just thinking about whether he's enjoying it. And then obviously you get to women in there when you reach motherhood and there's a whole different journey around sexuality there. You know, many women talk about how hard it is to shelve mum and be lover and, you know, how difficult that aspect of the relationship is to navigate.

But then what's wonderful is you meet women who've come through that so you might meet women in their 40s and they say gosh we had a terrible time in our relationship when the kids were young but this is how we got through it um and then women post menopause who who have start who are who are claiming their bodies and their sexualities in such a an amazing way you know to have gone from you know to these younger women worried so much about the other person's enjoyment to you know i'll'll quote a woman of 70 who just says, I want what I want when I want it. Yes. And may have, may have, you know, may have started with men, moved on to women, may have changed who that partner is, and therefore might be thinking again, very differently. And actually, one of the things that you wanted to bring across, there are many things, but one of

the things you wanted to bring across is this idea that older women don't have sex. Yeah, there were a few taboos that were really busted, I felt when I when I was, you know, researching this book. And for me, as I go through it, it feels like something happens to women in their 40s where they really start to own their sexuality and explore it. And I love that. So actually the women, the women you get older, I mean the older women are the women who are really going, I want tantric sex. You know, one lady has a, I think she's 56 and she has a shed

in her garden which they call the temple and her and her partner go and have these tantric love sessions in there. Sounds quite cold. Sorry, just thinking about the temperatures right now. I'm very into heating and being warm despite being northern go on they heat it um and another woman at 58 she said she said at 50 she suddenly thought what are my preferences what do i like and actually she really likes bdsm relationships where she's submissive and her partners are dominant so you really do have women thinking

asking themselves this important question what do i I want, and really going for it. And then, you know, as you say, you finish with Lucy, because it's also, you know, older women as well, you know, in a different stage of their life again. Yeah, and I think Lucy, there's something really lovely about Lucy. And she says, you know, she says, sometimes I just like to sleep naked. I love the feel of the sheets against my body and this just as she feels into her sensuality and she feels that she has a lot of um memories of herself with you know having beautiful love making and that really warms her and she can often think about that she's not in a relationship at the moment but often these lovely memories will come to her when she walks down the street and she'll sort of get a tingle or she might decide to self-pleasure every so often.

But this lovely way that the great sexual experiences she's had still sort of cushion her in her life now. And Lucy's how old again? 74. 74. OK. And have you changed your view of, you know, how you felt about sex going into this or rather what you thought about during it uh oh well it's interesting actually because it did get me thinking you know really starting to think what do I think um throughout it um I don't know whether it's changed it's just reconfirmed me I mean I just find sexuality just the most fascinating aspect of ourselves to explore um and for me when I went on my own sort of sexual exploration journey,

I just learned so much about myself. And it was so empowering, I think, to explore my pleasure really made me find my power. I definitely wouldn't have started the campaign against page three if I hadn't gone on this journey for myself. So and it's just I think, yeah, I think doing this book has just confirmed that for me what a a fascinating topic this is and a window into our psyche, really. Lucianne Holmes, thank you for talking to us. It's called Women on Top of the World, What Women Think About When They Are Having Sex. Well, if you want to tell us, we are all ears, as we have been throughout the programme, because you've been getting in touch on women in meetings, women in jazz. We've just had a very interesting message about being a drummer. So keep them coming

in. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. A new podcast series from BBC Radio 4. In the first stage of a poltergeist haunting, the entity will confine

itself to making noise, as if it's testing its victims. The Battersea Poltergeist. My name's Shirley Hitchens. I'm 15 years old. I live with my mum, dad, brother, gran, and Donald.

Subscribe to The Battersea Poltergeist on BBC Sounds. like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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