Woman's Hour - Women in Law. One hundred years of women being able to enter the legal profession.

Episode Date: December 23, 2019

We mark the centenary of women being able to enter the legal profession. Cherie Booth QC, Dana Denis-Smith founder of the First 100 years, Abi Silver a former associate at a city law firm and now a legal consultant, Beth Collette who's a barrister in her second year of tenancy talk about what it's like for women in the profession now - how far we've come and what more needs to be done.Mari Takayanagi a Senior Archivist at the Houses of Parliament tells us about the The Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act 1919 and the changes it brought in and the pioneering women who worked so hard to open up the profession to women.Plus we look at what it's like to be a female magistrate We hear from former magistrate Katherine McMahon and Jacqui MacDonald who's currently serving as a magistrate in the Central and North London area as well as being Trustee at Magistrates AssociationPresenter Andrea Catherwood Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Cherie Booth QC Guest; Dana Denis-Smith Guest; Abi Silver Guest; Beth Collette Guest; Mari Takayanagi Guest; Katherine McMahon Guest ; Jacqui MacDonald

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. On this day, the 23rd of December, exactly 100 years ago, women for the first time were allowed to enter the legal profession. So we are dedicating the programme to women in law. And I think it's fair to say that we've got a crack team of lawyers, historians and magistrates all here in the studio, including one of the country's best-known QCs,

Cherie Booth, to look at women in law today. Before we get there, though, let's look at what was going on 100 years ago. Mari Takenadji is a senior archivist at the Houses of Parliament. Mari, why couldn't women practise law? They were actually banned, weren't they? They were indeed. So women tried to enter the legal profession from the late 19th century.

They studied law degrees, but they couldn't become solicitors or barristers because they were banned from membership of the Law Society for Solicitors and the Bar Council for Barristers. And so a small number of dedicated women sought to join. They brought test cases. They tried to argue their case. And the big test cases were Bertha Cave in 1903 and Gwyneth Bebb versus the Law Society in 1913. But sadly, in both cases, the women were found not to be people

for the purposes of joining these organisations. Right. And what other reasons were given for women not being allowed to practice law? There were many arguments put forward by the male lawyers who did not want women to join their professions. They included that they thought women were too emotional, they weren't logical enough to construct arguments, particularly in relation to barristers. It was argued that men would feel the need to be chivalrous when faced with a female opponent, or that women would use their feminine wiles.

The Irish feminine wiles. Absolutely. And much of this, of course, echoes arguments about women in the vote, which was going on at exactly the same time. The real reasons behind this, of course, was misogyny and the fact that men were scared of competition. And recent research by Katie Broomfield has absolutely brought this out, that men were scared of women competing

against them for cases and so on. Well, we're going to be talking a little bit later on about what's happening today. But it's no coincidence that World War One was a real catalyst for change. Absolutely. So after 1913, it became apparent that legislation was needed to persuade the Law Society and the Bar Council to change their minds. And there were various attempts by male sympathisers to women in the law in the House of Commons and the House of Lords. But the First World War really intervened, of course, the Great War as it was at the time. And it changed minds partly because women were entering the workforce.

So approximately one million women entered the workforce for the first time during the First World War. And in some professions, including solicitors firms, women stepped up to essentially do law around the fringes of the profession. And so by the time we got to 1919, a lot of the older arguments had just withered away and died. The first women had gotten the vote in 1918, and this cleared the way for women's organisations,

feminist campaigning organisations, to move on to other issues. And top of the list, thanks to all the women who have been campaigning for the last 30 years, was women in the professions. Not just law, it should be said, but also accountancy, veterinary medicine, a whole host of other professions too. So this was the snappily named Sexual Disqualification Removal Act, which was passed 100 years ago today.

Was there an immediate impact? There was an immediate impact, although that was more in the world of magistrates and jurors rather than solicitors and barristers, because, of course, it took women solicitors and barristers a few years to come through training. But the first woman magistrate was appointed, you know, the first women magistrates were appointed within a day or so, and the first woman presided as a magistrate on the 31st of January 1919. She was a mayor and therefore ex officio

magistrate. But Helena Normanton became the first woman to enter an Inn of Court within hours of the Act and she was followed by small numbers of others who then made their way through and started to qualify as barristers and solicitors over the next few years. Well Marie, thank you very much indeed

for now. So, 100 years, the law changed, discrimination ended, and men and women practised law on a level playing field. OK, not really. In fact, only 2% of women in law today believe that there's true equality in the profession. And that's according to a major survey from First 100 Years. It's an organisation set up to commemorate the centenary. Well, its founder, Dana Dennis-Smith, is here, along with Cherie Blair QC,

Abby Silver, who worked at a large city law firm, but left to become a legal consultant and writer, and Beth Collett, who is a barrister in the second year of her tenancy. Dana, tell us about the findings of this survey, because it is even more negative than I would have expected. Well, I agree with you. I think we found the same. I think when you say 2% of women believe it's equality, really that's, from a statistically point of view, 100% of women do not believe there is equality, really.

We found that a third of them have suffered, two-thirds of them have suffered some form of sexual harassment at work. They leave because of lack of flexible working conditions. And really, it isn't a great picture for 2019. And we were very surprised because we had worked so hard to celebrate achievements and to put the spotlight

on the great things that we have achieved. But it seems that under the surface, women feel they cannot compete on equal playing field with the men. Cherie Booth, you are one of the women that's being celebrated in this. And you've had an incredibly successful career, becoming a QC, setting up your own chambers. And in fact, you continued working as a QC when you were living in Downing Street and your husband, Tony Blair, was prime minister. But just take us back a little bit, would you,

to your decision to become a lawyer. Did you have any role models? Did you know any female lawyers or any lawyers at all when you were growing up? Well, certainly in my case, because I came from a single parent family in Liverpool, I didn't know any lawyers at all. And it was actually my boyfriend's mother at the time who said to me, Cherie, you love debating. You're very argumentative. Have you ever thought about being a lawyer? Slightly barbed comment, perhaps.

No, she was very supportive. And then I thought, well, actually, my grandmother had always been a huge admirer of Rose Halbron QC. And Rose, of course, features on the front of Dana's book, is the first woman to become a QC in 1949. And she was from Liverpool. She was a Jewish girl from Liverpool, who was also a working mother and actually very, very attractive. And my grandmother had been a huge admirer of her and often went to see her when she had some big cases. And so my grandma had often spoken about her. And for some mad reason, I thought if one girl from Liverpool could make it, maybe this girl from Liverpool could make it too. No you more than made it because you did extremely well at a very early stage and that brought you into the company of Lord Denning. Tell me about that.

Yes well because I was the top of the bar finals, my children say this is very sad, but I was the top of the bar finals. Something to be celebrated. And so when I was called to the bar finals. My children say this is very sad. But I was the top of the bar finals. Something to be celebrated. And so when I was called to the bar, it was called upon me to make the speech on behalf of the graduating barristers, if you want to put it that way. So Lord Denning, of course, was the height of his powers in the Court of Appeal in those days. He was a bencher of Lincoln's Inn. And so I got to sit with the benches, which is possibly not the treat you might think it was. But he did say to me at one point,

well, you know, we've done very well, but, you know, really, the bar isn't really a place for a woman. He then went on to say, of course, my... Even though you'd actually come first. He then went on to say, my stepdaughter, of course, would disagree with me. His stepdaughter was someone called Lady Fox she also became a qc and she uh was a very great star in the international law uh field but nevertheless um uh but you know lord denning was not the

exception in relation to that there was a general attitude that women really was at their place. The textbook that you got when you went to do your first year as a lawyer was called Learning the Law by Glanville Williams. And he says in the book expressly, well, women could become solicitors, but they couldn't possibly become barristers because a woman's voice doesn't travel as far as a man. Cherie, from the very beginning, you were probably going to want to change things. When you are called to the bar, you get a sort of a certificate of standing. And on that, you're supposed to put in your father's name and occupation. That was back in 1976. It sounds quite archaic even then.

You'd something to say about that? Well, I did, actually, because obviously, you know, I was close to my father. He's died now. But nevertheless, he did abandon us when I was eight. And my mother was left basically to bring up the two children with the help of her mother-in-law. So I felt when it came to signing the record of becoming a barrister, that for my father to take the credit of that seemed to be just not acceptable. So I said, No, I'm sorry, my mother, it has to be my mother's name. So anyway, to be fair on them, they thought it was a bit unusual. But when I was called to the bar,

I was called as daughter of Gail Booth, not as Anthony Booth. Abi, I want to bring you in here because you qualified as a solicitor and then you've since left. Tell us about your experiences, particularly your early experiences in the profession. So I suppose what I would say is my experience is commercial firms in London. So you work for what's called a magic circle law firm, which I have to say to people listening at home isn't quite as exciting as it sounds. It's got nothing to do with Paul Daniels. No, nothing to do with that.

It's just one of the top law firms. And I think probably in the early stages of my career, I was given I was certainly given every opportunity to progress. So I was supported and mentored. I didn't suffer any kind of harassment of any kind. And, you know, that's despite the fact that actually I didn't necessarily fit the mould. So I'm also from the north of England. I'm from Leeds. My vowels haven't always been quite as polished as they are today. I'm also state educated. I'm Jewish. I'm quite plain speaking.

And obviously what we're talking about today, I'm quite plain speaking and obviously what we're talking about today I'm female but that really didn't hold me back for seven years or so but for me everything really changed when I had my family and there were probably I suppose sort of two watershed moments for me that where I suddenly started to feel that perhaps I wouldn't be able to achieve at the highest level. I think the first was trying to get back to work post maternity leave. And I accept that it was quite a difficult time. It was 2008, 2009 with the sort of financial crisis. I accept I'd been out for a few years,

but I had this idea that I was going to come back to work with sort of to a fanfare and trumpets you know I'd had my three children I deliberately had them in a very short space of time I'd I'd completed an MBA by distance learning whilst living overseas I'd learned a new language I started doing my my writing and I thought, you know, I'm going to hit the scene. And nobody was interested. I was met with this, well, even worse than a wall of silence. I was pretty much told that I shouldn't even bother trying to get back into work, that it was very competitive. People weren't interested.

I'd lost my network. And certainly I couldn't, I felt, I don't know if any of you remember the Boys from the Black Stuff, Alan Bleasdale's play. I was Yossi Hughes. I mean, it was awful. It was this give me a job, I can do anything. And I couldn't even get into a job interview. The recruitment consultants wouldn't even put me forward.

So that was one moment. The second time for me was I, in a rather convoluted way, I ended up back at one of the law firms I'd worked at previously. But then the second difficulty for me was actually becoming a partner, which is the pinnacle of the career for solicitors. The progression, exactly. And I think that, again, whilst I don't want to be too churlish because there were many people, men and women,

who supported and encouraged me, there was just this feeling, I think, that because I was working part-time, and I think I was possibly the only woman working part-time then, that I wasn't professionally ambitious and that perhaps I should feel happy that I had the privilege of having the job and being able to do interesting and challenging work. And so for me, ultimately, that wasn't enough.

If I wasn't going to achieve, other sort of badges of honour weren't sufficient for me. And at that point, I decided to leave. Now, if you're listening to this this morning and you are a lawyer, perhaps you rarely get to listen to the programme live, but you could be off work today in the run-up to Christmas. We would love to hear from you about your experiences and what you think of the discussion so far. I would like you to get in touch on Twitter if you can.

It's BBC Women's Hour or email us through the Women's Hour website. Also listening to that, of course, is Beth. And Beth, you are a barrister and I think I introduced you saying you're in the second year of your tenancy. Just explain what that means. Certainly. So I was called to the bar in 2016, but I started doing what's called pupillage, which is the training year in September 2017. So that's 12 months where you sit in the chambers and they train you up. And at the end of that year, they decide whether they would like you to stay in chambers or you'll go and look somewhere else. So I was very fortunate. My chambers very kindly decided to keep me.

And I've been there now for just over a year. So in my second year. So it's fair to say you're the youngest of everybody here in the room today. What have your experiences been? When you hear about some of the experiences of law professionals who are older than you, does your experience reflect that? Well, I think there's a few things. Firstly, obviously, joining the law now is the best time to be a woman at both the bar and I think as a solicitor because people are aware of all and any of the problems, or perhaps all is overstating it, but certainly many of the problems that face women today. But I think that's not to say that it's perfect entering the legal world. It's slightly different training as a barrister as it is as a solicitor. So whilst we all do exams,

there's a really personal element to the bar. And I think actually that's something that still needs quite a lot of work to make it equal for women. One of the things in particular, there's a massive social element. Obviously, everyone thinks of barristers and they think of us being in court.

And that's something that you have to be prepared for and be able to speak to anybody and talk to the judges and talk to senior members of the bar. So lots of our training involves dinners or drinks or lectures where afterwards you're expected to mingle. And I think even basic things which affect women across society really do play a part there. For example, the men are all in suits, the women are choosing what to wear and as a young woman perhaps if you haven't had much exposure to the bar you don't necessarily know what to wear I remember doing a mock examination for cross-examination and my feedback for it was

nothing to do with anything that I'd said it was not to do with the content of my presentation but I was told I shouldn't be wearing a trouser suit and flat shoes, but I should be wearing a skirt, more makeup, more jewellery, heels. And this was a few years ago. But when you're training, if someone says to you, jump three feet in the air and you'll get a job, you do it and you'll do it twice. So of course, that then perpetuates the myth that that is something that women need to be doing. And I don't think that's the case. So I think once we've qualified and once you have a little bit more security, of course, the vast majority of barristers are self-employed. Actually, you know that you don't need to wear heels and you can,

as long as you're appropriately dressed, then you are able to choose how you want to behave in the profession. And I do think that gives us much more of an advantage compared to perhaps other employed barristers or solicitors. We're much more in control. But you do know that right up until the mid 1990s, you were not allowed to wear trousers in court as a woman. So things have changed. Donna, I wanted to read a couple of, there was quite a lot of quotations that accompanied your survey.

And one of them, well, a lot of them are fairly damning I'm just going to read read one and gender discrimination is rife the legal profession remains significantly out of step with society the boys network remains in full force excluding women so they feel inadequate and incapable now that's actually from a partner in a law firm that's somebody who has made it and is in a senior position. One barrister says the bar is institutionally racist and from an associate that's a junior solicitor says that women in her workplace are routinely discriminated against and they're harassed if they complain. Diversity and women's initiatives are simply PR. These comments to me, Donna, almost seem like the Me Too movements have just passed law by.

A lot of people listening might think, look, you know, lawyers, they work on discrimination cases. They're very well educated. They do human rights work. They have agency. Why is the legal playing field not much more level? I wish I had the answer to your question. But we'll definitely work on getting that sorted in the next 100 years campaign. But not wait 100 years for it. It is quite depressing, really, because I think what changed in 1919 was giving women the access to the profession what everybody expected was a rapid change and acceptance of women and we are seeing that even today as women are basically the majority of the profession especially on the solicitor side there's

more women than men I mean practicing as they are you, a little bit like what Abi said, as you start communicating your ambition and your aspiration to enter, if you like, the more exclusive, higher ranks of the profession, you are you know, partnership model, you can have a partner woman who says, I feel discriminated purely because she might not actually hold any equity in the law firm. She might be what is called a salary partner. That's a lower tier partnership that doesn't actually give you any power saying what the culture of that firm actually does for you. So you take away a little bit more security and a little bit more money than the other people. You get a sense of maybe false security, but in reality, you're not equal.

So we have, if you like, another level of club that we need to break into, and that is the club of partners on the law firm side and the club of QCs on the other side, where you need to be really forcing your way through and again I think one of the lessons of the first hundred years for the next hundred years is a woman should not reinvent some of the battles of the past and really take away some of the strength and the achievements of the other woman to really focus strategically on what we are asking

for next. We shouldn't be faced with a gender pay gap in the legal profession because at the beginning of when I trained, we were all starting on the same salary. But when we were getting the bonuses, all the boys were having more bonuses than I was getting. And I figured very quickly that this is going to take me, you know, 50 years to reach equality in my own firm.

And so I left too, just like you said. But let's be a bit more positive about that I think because I think things are changing and first of all what we're talking about isn't just about the law and I absolutely agree with you you know I believe as lawyers committed to the rule of law and human rights we actually should be in the lead not in the uh the back of the queue and frankly, not in the back of the queue. Frankly, we are towards the back of the queue, that's for sure. But nevertheless, things have changed, things have moved on. And the issues that we're talking about are issues that you

will probably find if you had a group of accountants here together, or people trying to get into become chief executives of big companies. And the issues are a number, I think. One is a sense of male entitlement. So that somehow or other men assume that they're going to get those big roles. And when they don't get it, and maybe a woman does, there's always a sort of suggestion that somehow, going back to those feminine wiles again or something she must that that must be some reason or perhaps simply that they they say i

mean we've heard this actually said that you know they had to promote a woman because they were trying to get the numbers up which can be very undermining for women absolutely and that whole thing you know it's all political correct Actually, it's just about getting the right people for the job and making sure that the criteria that you assess people on isn't just about whether you have an extra chromosome or not. But the fact is the structures that have been built up by organizations that for decades, centuries actually been dominated by men. We have to we have to start looking at how we reorganize things and i think what what you said about becoming a mother is still the crucial issue for so many women in the law because it's absolutely true girls are dominating in the law schools they're doing well when they you know again when they go to the professional exams they go in roughly the same position of equality my own daughter's a young barrister too I mean there

was no question that people wouldn't take her on just because she was a girl which was definitely a question when I was being taken on I mean people would actually say to you you know well we can't we don't take women in these chambers or they'd say well we have a woman in these chambers but we couldn't have two because what would happen if they both became pregnant at the same time I mean that that that in a sense has gone but the issue about what happens when you have to balance work and family life remains a real live issue. It is interesting looking at the issue of retention because I also did a law degree

and I was just thinking about it when I was preparing for this and so many of the women that I studied with and who went off to jobs in the city ended up going off and doing really great things very successfully but they left the law or they left being a partner or a barrister.

And so they might have gone into recruitment, for example, whereas a lot of the men that I worked with are currently a high court judge or a QC or a senior partner in a law firm. What what is it? What can you do around the issue of maternity if that is seen as a stumbling block that could change that? Well, firstly, I think we've got to stop thinking of this as a woman's issue exactly it shouldn't be a woman's issue but you know we shouldn't be talking at the table seems to be saying we shouldn't be talking about maternity at all we should be talking about becoming a parent and actually 50 of the parents well perhaps not totally 50 but certainly very close they are men and men, too. And interestingly, I, you know, I have a son who's a lawyer as well. And, you know, he is very interested in being very much a hands on father.

And so this flexibility is actually important for men and women. But it's also important for the firms, too too because what sort of person do you want as your as your lawyer what sort of person do you want as your future partner what sort of person do you want as leaders of the profession to set the future goals of the profession you actually want people who've got the human side to them who who don't just have work as their only thing, who are interested in diversity, interested in different experiences. And if we keep pushing people through a straight jacket model about what a lawyer is supposed to be and what a lawyer is supposed to do, we don't achieve that. Now, I've set up my own law firm and I can say that we are four, we have four partners, 75% of whom are women.

We've just taken on two salary partners, 100% women. But then our next two senior associates are 100% men. So, you know, you can do things differently. You can do things differently. And sometimes people do, but we need to do more of it. Beth, when you hear that, does that give you some hope for the future as a young barrister? Oh absolutely and I wouldn't want anyone thinking about entering into the legal profession as a woman to be put off by any of this there are definitely problems to overcome but I think that we are making a lot of steps it's definitely reassuring for me I'm not at the stage yet where I have children or have any caring responsibilities.

But I think that I definitely feel that I would be supported. I have to say my chambers is particularly supportive. And I think the bar is getting better at recognising that actually, you know, being a parent is an important part of one's life. I think this possibly links more to other kind of intersectional problems in the legal profession. So certain areas of the bar where you're better paid, you're able to take much longer maternity leave. It's much harder for those criminal barristers who aren't paid as much. And if they're not there to get the work, they genuinely don't have any money coming in. Darnie, you wanted to come in.

Yeah, I was going to suggest that we need more imagination around a lot of the topics that have emerged really in our survey. Rights around childcare is one of them for example one of the things that I think we need is to think from a child's point of view I mean I have an 80 year old and her needs have evolved in her lifetime and really I think the way we structure maternity leave paternity leave forces people out for huge breaks that then makes it very difficult to return. So actually you can have a much more extended period of parental care that doesn't involve a compact time that the man or the woman,

you take it or you lose it. It's a very kind of zero-sum game that we're playing here that is forcing a lot of talented people out. And that's just to give an example for maternity, for example. But there are so many other things around accessing the higher echelons around quotas we can be much more courageous I think for the next hundred years to really change for women. Well we've got a lot of interaction on Twitter Jo says that in 1999 at a second interview in a city law firm she was told that women

employees were required to wear skirts she said she couldn't work for a firm that didn't trust her to get dressed for work in the morning. And Sarah Ellison has got in touch to say that she is a senior lawyer and that her best clients are senior in-house women lawyers. And she seeks to champion the women coming through the firm to become our partners for the future. I was going to say she's so right about that, because I was also going to say that there is a lot of support. And one only has to mention the words Brenda Hale to know that that is the case. And Brenda, even in the 80s, when the Association of Women Barristers was set up,

was always involved in that, has always been supportive, as indeed have the Mary Arden and Lady Black, both of whom are now on the Supreme Court and still on the Supreme Court. I mean, you know, there are women who have come before us and who are actually saying, no, I'm going to speak out and support younger women coming through. And I think that is very important. And it also means there's more role models as well much more role models. Well today's programme is all about women in the law with Cherie Booth QC

Dana Dennis-Smith who founded the first 100 years, Abby Silver who worked at a large city law firm and is now a legal consultant and Beth Collett a barrister as well as Marie Takenachi. Now we'd love to hear from you, and you are getting in touch. Also a hundred

years ago today, the ban was lifted and the first women magistrates were sworn in very soon after that. They were in fact the first women to hold a formal role in court. So here with us in the studio as well is Magistrate Jackie MacDonald-Davis, who is also

trustee at the Magistrates Association and former magistrate and author Catherine McMahon. Catherine, tell us a little bit about who those first women magistrates were and how they were chosen. Obviously they were chosen by men. They certainly were chosen by men although they soon formed a women's

advisory committee. But the process of appointment was described as patronage infused by secrecy so it wasn't exactly an open process. I hope it's changed in the magistracy. The first women were extraordinarily well connected and often it was kind of a reward I think for what you'd done else in society. So Ada Summers was the very first woman magistrate and she was known as Lady Bountiful locally because she had a lot of money. She was a widow, which is, I think, always very helpful. And that's how she got her money. And then there was Gertrude Tuckwell, who had a

background in women in the trade union movement. Margaret Lloyd George, who had been obviously the wife of a prime minister. So people had good connections. Lady Londonderry, who had been obviously the wife of a prime minister. So people had good connections. Lady Londonderry, who was a great society hostess. These were not exactly ordinary women. I was going to say, I can see there wasn't a huge amount of diversity in the women that you've just mentioned there. What kind of cases did these first women magistrates deal with? I wonder what kind of reaction there was to them

by people who were going up against a female magistrate for the first time. Well, I guess there was quite a lot of prejudice. I mean, I wrote a novel about the first women lawyers and I think it must have been very tough in court if you were being represented by a woman lawyer or suddenly you were represented by or you were judged by a woman magistrate. But on the other hand, young female victims of sex abuse, for example, at last were being had women in the court. So they weren't in an all male

environment. Although the first women magistrates were often excluded because it was considered very indelicate work. So sometimes cases were transferred to an all male bench. And a lot of the case law would have been pretty routine, including the stealing of bicycle bells, that sort of thing. So quite routine. Jackie, you're a serving magistrate. Yes. And it's worth just pointing out that, unlike judges, magistrates don't need to come from a legal background.

Just explain a little bit about what most of those backgrounds are and, indeed, why did you apply? Where did the desire to become a magistrate spring from? probation service and bails. And it was from that that I became curious and wanting to know more about what was going on. And also the notion that why didn't the magistracy at the time really reflect the communities in which they work? The notion of transparency, having a fair system was really paramount in me deciding I wanted to be part of that. In terms of who applies, I think you're spot on. You don't need a law degree. And that is one of the myths that we've tried to move from, that anyone from any walk of life between 18 and 65 can apply other than if you're a police officer or somebody in the armed forces and that's primarily because we want you to have that kind of

objective thought process as you go into it but we want to move beyond. I mean, we talk about diversity and I'm always at great pains to say that we've got 56% of women in the magistracy. So we're actually better than men in that respect. The percentage of BMEs, that's Black, Asian Minority, Ethnic, is 12%. Still much more work to be done, but certainly better than it was 10 years ago. How important is it that we have more ethnic diversity in the kind of magistrates in areas, particularly where there is, where there are a lot of black and Asian people?

I think it's really important. You had the Lammy review not so long ago, which highlighted the fact... This was David Lammy, the MP who came up with the review. That very much argued that for a lot of women young people and particularly black youths that they did not feel they had a fair hearing within the system and i think when you're working in particularly in london areas it's really important that when you enter a courtroom that you see a bench that reflects your community

and I want to stress here because sometimes people say well we don't want to water down the qualifications or whatever is required and we're not saying to accept just anyone there is a rigorous process of becoming a magistrate but I think it's really important that you see people who represent you, not just in terms of race, but it could be in terms of disability, religion, whatever it is. We want to see you on that bench. Catherine? because it's outside the legal profession. And it's your opportunity to represent the society from which you come, plus you're facing the criminal justice system. And it's a really unique opportunity,

but to be relevant, it has to be diverse. It has to reflect that society. Otherwise, what is the role of the magistracy? And you've got three colleagues sitting there on a bench. And I think that is where the objectivity comes in and the fairness, you hope, and the trust that people can have in that system because you're not sitting there with a judge. There's three of you making a decision as to what happens next. I think it's quite important to stress, of course, that the magistrates don't need to be the experts in the law, if you like. Indeed. Don't need to be the experts in the law, if you like. Because you are there to judge the facts, particularly.

And you've got a legal clerk who will help you with the law. And actually, most of the cases that the magistrates do, most of the cases that come in front of the criminal courts are about facts in the end of the day. If we're talking about judging what is happening, whether somebody has stolen something on the street you know a diversity of experience is really important for that and it it's actually a better qualification than perhaps living in an ivory tower of of privilege and that is actually one of the questions that we ask magistrates at interview tell us about your local area what is going on in your local area from a kind of criminal social economic point of view and just to pick you up you're actually right

the reason why you don't need a legal background is because you've got that legal advisor who will point you in the direction case law etc to ensure that you remain on the right path when you go out to deliberate the case and that's not to say you don't actually learn a lot about the law by sitting on the bench absolutely there's you do receive training you know there's the induction and as well as the 13 days that you sit you are expected to attend various training courses, visit prisons, probation, etc. So very much it's an ongoing, continual professional development. I want to get some final thoughts. Dana, as the founder of First Hundred Years,

80% of lawyers you surveyed thought that it would take at least 20 years to get true equality. If there was just one thing, what would you say could speed that up? I would say I'm a great supporter of quotas for senior roles. I think having women ahead of you makes a difference. We've seen it has made a difference to the acceleration of change. Abi, what could have kept you at the senior law firm? I think it's all about changing the narrative. So it's just echoing the points that Cherie made. It shouldn't all be about making money. I know that it's very difficult if you're a legal services provider.

So your only source of income is from selling legal services. But you have to want to promote people who stand for other things and who have other qualities. And so I think if that had been recognised, then probably I would have had a different path. Not that I, just echoing what Beth said, not that I want to put anyone off, because I think I have found law to be an incredibly rewarding profession, very challenging, very interesting. But that would be my change in the narrative. Beth, as a relatively young barrister, I get the impression that you're perhaps more optimistic than everyone around the table that things might change more rapidly. I hope so. I think we as women, but indeed as everyone in the profession now, are being given an opportunity to start calling things out when they're not good enough.

When we see something happen and we think, actually, that's not the way it should be in 2019 2019 whether it be something from the survey or something else I think we all feel I hope we all feel more confident and able to report it whether to the chambers or to bar council or to your inner court and that's that's got to be positive. Marie as a historian we mentioned how the first world war was a really major catalyst for change do you see this as an inflection point today with the MeToo movement, etc.? I do. I've been involved in a number of projects marking the centenary, and I've found that women in the law, and indeed outside the law, have been inspired and amazed by the centenary. Of the projects I've been involved in, I'd like to particularly mention the Parliamentary Archives and Royal Holloway have launched some videos today about the Act and its significance for barristers, solicitors, the civil service and beyond which you can find on YouTube

and I've also helped a project called Behind the Gown which has been trying to explore some of the issues for women barristers in particular there have been some wonderful academic work, women's legal landmarks, I'd like to mention in the First Hundred Years Project sorry, the First Hundred Years is Donna's project of course

the First Women Lawyers Project at St Mary's University and finally I'd like to mention a children's book, which has just been released by Guy Fawkes. It's called History Rocks, Women in Law. And if you've got or know of any children... If you're looking for a late Christmas present. That's right, very late Christmas present. You can find it on Amazon, as I say, Guy Fawkes, History Rocks, Women in Law,

for children of maybe sort of 9, 10, 11, I particularly recommend it. And all good bookshops, I'm sure, as well. Jackie and Catherine, as magistrates, what would you say to women who are listening today and who might be thinking of a challenge for the new year? For myself, I think it's a brilliant opportunity. It gives you a chance to really immerse yourself in another world, but also it calls into question the whole sister question

of citizenship what does it mean to be part of our society and represent our society so it's a real challenge and a real opportunity Jackie and thank you and just picking up Beth's point about the way in which that women can actually take time out and return because one of my responsibilities is working with a magistrate association who's actually looking at specialist interest groups how can we hear from current magistrates what they're experiencing so that we can ensure that it's better in the recruitment and retention of others. Cherie Booth you started off talking about your role model, that first QC when you were growing up. You're now a role model for many women coming through the legal profession.

What do you think is the biggest change that needs to happen to get true equality? Well, I said before we came on here, we just need to change men. Good luck. Leaving that to one side, I just want to echo what everyone else has said the law is an amazing profession it's such an important part of our society and how you can change things for the better i would always encourage someone to think of a career in the law because you know you absolutely can make it but i want to see the position change so that it's not just the exception. We've seen, I mentioned them, Rose Halbrom, Brenda Hale, Mary Arden, Heather Hallett.

You can name these extraordinary women who've risen to the highest levels in our legal profession. But I want it to be the case where you don't have to just be the exception you don't have to be super the best but actually where the woman who is good enough can have the same opportunities as frankly the men who are good enough but not necessarily the superstars get at the moment and that's what we need to change well thank you moving on from the rock star to the rock band is what we need. Well, thank you very much indeed to all my guests today, a truly inspiring panel of women,

to Cherie Booth QC, Dana Dennis-Smith, founder of the First Hundred Years, Abby Silver, legal consultant and writer, Beth Collett, barrister, Catherine McMahon, a former magistrate and writer,

and Jackie MacDonald-Davis, magistrate, and of course, to Mary Takanyagi, a senior archivist at the Houses of Parliament. Well, we had a lot of emails and tweets today. One newly qualified solicitor who doesn't want to be named, but she's written in to say, From my experience of seeing the hours demanded of partners and senior associates, and the way that flexible and remote working is still strongly frowned upon, I would never consider it possible to have children and remain in the job that I do. Another on Twitter saying, looking back at my time working in law,

for decades more women than men joined the profession, but even mediocre men achieved partnership, whereas women I worked with are still assistants. They took much longer to become partners or gave up trying to progress. Claire tweets to say that But Colin, a former partner, says the argument put up in commercial law firms that men are more suited to partnership because they have a higher level of client availability is now being increasingly and thankfully challenged. Jenny's here tomorrow and we're joined by Joanna Scanlon of The Thick of It, getting on, no offence, and now at the BBC's new Christmas offering, Dracula. She plays Mother Superior and joins us

to discuss. And we'd also hear about another celebration of ABBA in an exhibition at the O2 and the real Derry Girls. 2019 has been another eventful year in Northern Ireland, second city of London Derry with the shocking murder of the young journalist Lyra McKee, shot dead by dissident Republicans. And as a border city, it has been at the heart of the Brexit debate. So what do real Derry girls from both communities make of the past year in the city? Kathleen Carraher spoke to four Derry women who are contemporaries of the TV's Derry girls. They were teenagers in the 1990s. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner, host of You're Dead to Me, of the TV's Derry Girls. So join me, the hilarious Russell Kane, and our clever historian, Dr Fern Bridell, as we crack cracker gags and get to grips with how the Victorians did Christmas.

You can find it now and all the other episodes under your tree or on BBC Sound. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the bbc world service the con caitlyn's baby it's a long story settle in available now