Woman's Hour - Women in Sudan, Jo Hansford, Paula Barker MP, Author Fran Hill

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

As a ceasefire continues in Sudan we look at how the conflict in the country has impacted women. Nuala is joined by CNN Chief International Investigative Correspondent Nima Elbagir.Jo Hansford MBE has been described as the “best tinter on the planet”. She started off cutting hair in her parents’ front room and is now one of the most famous female names in the business with two salons, her own range of products, and clients from Elizabeth Hurley, Angelina Jolie and Richard Burton, not to mention she is the woman in charge of the Queen’s crowning glory! Currently celebrating her 30th year in business, Jo joins Nuala to talk about her career, passion for colour and the upcoming coronation.Labour MP Paula Barker will bid for a new bill next month so care workers are paid minimum wage for travelling time between appointments to close a loophole which campaigners say means care workers' pay dips below the legal minimum. She joins Nuala to discuss.Fran Hill experienced the foster care system first-hand in the 70s, and her first novel Cuckoo in the Nest, explores what that life can be like for teenagers in care. Fran joins Nuala to discuss how her own experiences informed her writing and her career in teaching.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Hanna Ward SM: Andrew Garrett

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Good to have your company. Well, you will have seen and heard the stories of the attempts to evacuate people from Sudan. But what about the people who remain? We're going to speak to the journalist Nema El-Bagir, who is Sudanese, as her family has decided to stay, for now at least. Nema will also tell us about the situation for women in the middle of that conflict,

as she hears from friends, one of whom is pregnant, and also family members who are trying to access medical care as hospitals are paralysed by violence. Also today, we'll talk about being in care, and that's through the lens of Fran Hill's debut novel, Cuckoo in the Nest. Fran was fostered as a teenager, and she brings us into a world of difficult transitions and also, at times, relationships. Fran also describes what happened to her as she, as a teenager, tried to adapt to different environments in various homes. So that's also coming up.

And I have a question for you today. How long have you been in a relationship with your hairdresser? Well, Queen Consort Camilla has been a client of Joe Hansford for 35 years. Can you rival that? We're going to be speaking to Jo this hour. You might know that she's known as the best tinter on the planet. We'll talk about her long and successful career, hear some of her anecdotes about her very famous clients

and also get her advice for you on hair colour. I'd also like to hear from you about your connection to your hairdresser. Some have a more enduring relationship with their hairdresser than they have had with their partner, for example. Is that you? Or what about having to break up with your hairdresser? Just a cursory glance online. There's been a lot of articles written about that, too. How important is that relationship to you? You can text the programme 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC

Woman's Hour or email us through our website. If you'd like to leave us a voice note or a WhatsApp message, that is 03700 100444. Also, maybe you're a carer. We're going to talk about a proposal by Labour to pay carers

for travel and waiting times. They're going to talk about a proposal by Labour to pay carers for travel and waiting times. They're trying to close a loophole as they see it. Oh, the first tweet text is in from Paula. My mum has had the same hairdresser for 56 years. Okay, I've thrown down the gauntlet, or Paula's mum has. Can you beat that? 84844. And as I mentioned, care workers, not carers, but care workers, we will be talking about a little bit later. But let me begin with Sudan, the conflict.

Of course, you can't miss it. It's in all the headlines at the moment. And it does centre on a power struggle between two men. So one of them is the general, you might have heard about him, Abdel Fattah al-Burnhan. He's been head of the Sudanese armed forces for the past few years. The other is a man who until recently was acting as his de facto deputy, Mohamed Hamdan de Gallo, popularly known as Hamedti. And both of them, maybe this is not surprising,

want to become the undisputed ruler of Sudan. But what has ensued has seen Africa's third largest country plunged into conflict. So far, it's predicted that 459 people have died, but the figure is likely to be much higher. And the violence has meant that thousands of people, foreigners, have been stranded. You will have heard some of those harrowing stories on Radio 4. And I did see actually flights carrying British nationals out of Sudan. The first one has just left Cyprus because it stopped in Larnaca and is now on its way to the UK. But what I want to do with my next guest is take a look at the experience of Sudanese women in the country as this 72-hour ceasefire continues. It ends tomorrow. I have with me,

I'm so glad, in studio Nema El-Bagir, a Sudanese-born journalist. You might also know her as CNN's chief international investigative correspondent. So lovely to have you with us. Did you expect that something like this could escalate so quickly in your country? Well, we've been hearing warning signs for some time and many Sudanese have been trying to reach out to the international community, those in the civilian leadership, because this was supposed to be part of a transition process back to the democratization process. So there have been warnings going out to the UK, to the EU, to the US, what we call the quartet who were involved with trying to get Sudan back on the road to democracy.

After the two generals, who, by the way, we should probably add, were partners in a coup to still birth the Sudanese democratic process that began after the previous dictator. A lot of dictators in this story after the previous dictator was ousted. Omar al-Bashir. Yeah, Omar al-Bashir, who had the Islamist movement. That name may be more familiar to a lot of our listeners because he was in power for so long. But since then, it's been a really fragmented, disjointed story, some might say.

Yes, but at the heart of it, anchored by it, has been this extraordinary moment of people power in 2019. The Sudanese took to the streets in their tens of thousands. They occupied the space in front of the army HQ, which is currently where the fighting is the hottest in Sudan. And they would not leave until Omar al-Bashir agreed to step down. And the last three, four years now has been this kind of push and pull between the army and armed actors like Commander Dagalo trying to pull Sudan back onto that path of militarization. And for the people of Sudan, so that's kind of happening at the levels of government. But it's been tough for people on a day-to-day level before this conflict. Absolutely, absolutely. It had, at one point, Africa's highest inflation.

It was almost 200%. Lots of different regional powers were involved, backing their preferred candidate to rule. Wagner, the Russian proxy militia, was involved with training and equipping the paramilitary under Commander Dugulu and was engaged a little bit with the Sudanese army. It became this kind of playground and proxy for all sorts of bad actors. But fundamentally, the responsibility lies with these two men. But you know, I have, since Omar al-Bashir stepped down, I was always struck by

the Sudanese women in this story. Yeah, they led the revolution. Tell our listeners a little bit more about that. So Sudan is probably one of the more liberal Muslim countries in one way in terms of education and work, but is also still quite socially conservative. And what we did this horrible story at the time called Break the Girls about a concerted effort by the intelligence forces and the armed actors to sexually assault Sudanese women to try and stop them from going out in demonstrations. And so that, you know, those were the kind of the cultural and the physical barriers that women were faced with. And yet most of these demonstrations were either led by women or majority women. And I don't know if your listeners will have seen them at the time. But there were these beautiful videos of women coming out with drums. And at one point, there was one big demonstration where they'd set up sound systems

and were singing and leading the chanting. And there was just this unalloyed fierceness in these women that, you know, we are the ones who bear the brunt in our families for what the men are doing. Well, let's get to that. And today, because I just intimated there to our listeners, that some of your family, your parents, I believe, are still there thinking about staying. Are you trying to persuade them to get out? We are actively persuading them to get out. It's, you know, it's because of everything. My parents are journalists, and my father,

and they were in and out of exile because of my father's work against various dictatorships in Sudan. And so, which is why I sound like this, because we were back and forth to the UK. And so I think, like many Sudanese, it is heartbreaking for them to have seen Sudan, led by these extraordinary women, these extraordinary people, back to the brink of chaos. In fact, beyond anything Sudan has seen. Khartoum has never seen this before. And so for them, there's just this idea of if we leave, who are we leaving this to? Yeah, it's very difficult. But I am seeing pictures of, of course, some of the headlines here might be focusing on

British people or whomever. But of course, there are Sudanese people that that has been their home for years and years and years that are also trying to flee. It's surrounded by a lot of countries that are in turmoil already. So there's not an easy way out

in some respects. But tell me about your friend. There's one, I believe, who is pregnant. Yes, his wife was pregnant. And he did this extraordinary thing where a distant relative of his, who's an obstetrician, was trapped in a hospital that had been targeted by the RSF. And she was...

And they are? The Rapid Support Forces. I'm sorry, acronyms. The paramilitary group that's fighting the Sudanese army. So they targeted this hospital, which is, of course, a war crime because there were soldiers inside. And so this relative of his was speaking to us at great risk, telling us how, because she's an obstetrician, she knew that she had two patients who were due to give birth at any moment. So she was scared of being caught in rubble anywhere in the hospital while it was being shelled. So she had these heavily pregnant women by each side holding on to their hands as she moved to try and staunch the bleeding from the

people that were being brought in. She eventually was told to flee. The hospital was evacuated. So he drove over the bridge, through the fighting, through the gunfire to meet her from the evacuation point that she'd walked to. They drive back to his house. His wife's already had three children. So I think they weren't concerned about if she has to have the baby at home. They had a midwife living close to them. And this wonderful doctor that he just saved examined her and said to him, she's in breach. She can't stay here. She and the baby will die. So they had to pack their three young boys in the car, risk everybody's life to leave Khartoum through all these checkpoints and the fighting to where his family is from

outside of Khartoum. And I just found out this morning that she had a healthy baby boy. Oh, lovely ending. That is a great ending. She has four boys. Yeah, I mean, she has different problems ahead. But for today, that is. But that just tells you,

can you imagine, I mean, giving birth, as so many of our listeners will know, you're in a vulnerable position, you know, you're very excited and trepidatious and all those things. In the middle of this conflict, it really, I mean, makes you stop and think about what so many women must be going through. Because I think I was reading what the health care is like beyond the state of collapse in some way. Yes, yes. I mean, it's beyond the emergency point.

Most of the major hospitals have either been forcibly evacuated, have come under attack or because of the inability to move, doctors and medical staff can't get into them. So she is absolutely lot of the international, whether it's observers or people who are living there, you know, diplomatic, etc. When they leave, it can become more difficult for the people who are left behind. Yeah, I mean, that's the fear. There is always this, I mean, everybody understands

that your priority is to your nationals. But when you evacuate your nationals and there is no internationally supported infrastructure at any of these borders, there are no agreements for Sudanese. I mean, at the moment, those who flee via Egypt are being let in, we understand, but there are no aid organizations there to help them.

These are hugely traumatized people. My friend had to evacuate his 90 year old grandfather. This this trip to Egypt is taking over 20 hours. And it you know, I I certainly felt when I saw these evacuations and my mother's a British resident, I felt like the world was just locking the door on Sudan and leaving everybody inside there to die. Because what pressure can you place on these actors when you don't have that impetus of our nationals can't be caught in the middle of this? So the US Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken,

he came and negotiated this ceasefire, shall we say, until I think it's tomorrow evening that it runs out. Yeah, it's shaky. Yeah, of course. And I'm wondering who else in the region or internationally could be an actor or try and negotiate some sort of truth? Well, the Saudis say that they were involved with this negotiation. Nobody else has confirmed that. The problem is that Egypt historically has been very allied with the army and they have the security agreements.

Egypt, the worry is that Egypt could potentially be pulled in because this is right on their border. Also, we control their access to the Nile water, which for Egypt is a huge security and survival issue. Ethiopia is still coming out of the end of the atrocities that were perpetrated by the government and allied militias in Tigray. South Sudan is in and of itself in a disastrous situation. Chad is in a disastrous situation. Our border with Libya is controlled by Field Marshal Haftar, one of the kind of, Libya's kind of bifurcated. It's not a great neighborhood. Right.

Not a great neighborhood. This is what I'm thinking of because, you you know any of those countries that you've mentioned particularly libya i suppose is a really good case in point is when we see what can happen when one country becomes unstable as this is very much at the moment and i'm wondering you talk about some people trying is everybody you know trying to leave or we talked about your parents but you know other friends or people that are lots of people are staying so yeah like my friend and his family they're staying they've people have moved out to those who have family in rural areas have moved out to them you know i gosh i'm over you know over 20 something years doing this work all of the things that i normally expect, the infrastructure has not happened. The UN evacuated its staff.

We don't know who's left behind to look after people. There's no kind of putting aside the pressure that the international community can put. Even just the fundamental obligations under international humanitarian law are not being met. You know, people, these people in country, they're running out of food. They're running out of water. The critical infrastructure has been targeted previously. So electricity comes in and out. I'm practicing essentially on air the arguments I'm using on my parents no ability to get food aid. I think the WFP says already 15 million Sudanese are in need of food aid and nobody is moving to put any of these things in place. Nema El-Bagir, a Sudanese-born journalist and CNN's chief international investigative

correspondent. Thanks so much for coming into Women's Air and we'll need to follow up again as this story develops. now i did mention on something completely different we're talking about hair and hair color um i mentioned 84844 is the text number how many of these will i be able to get through let me see i'm 33 and i was introduced to my hairdresser 12 years ago by my mom i I now live in London and still travel up to Macclesfield every couple of months to have a joint appointment

with my mum. I love it and I wouldn't change it. That's from Zal. Thanks, Zal. Let me see. I've been having my hair done by Lee

of First for Hair in Liverpool since I was a baby. You didn't have any hair when you were a baby, did you? He's done my wedding, Buckingham House, let me see, Buckhouse Garden Party and every single life event you can imagine. He's done my wedding, a Buckingham House, let me see, Buckhouse Garden Party

and every single life event you can imagine. He's power-dressed my hair and given me the confidence at every job interview. Above all, he's a friend and confidant and a wonderful hairdresser, of course. We have laughed, gossiped, cried together through the decades. I don't have the name of that person

but I think Lee in Liverpool might know who I'm talking about. Despite living in Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire, as well as Devon, where I live now, I've travelled back to the same hairdresser in Exeter since 1991, following her around the different salons she's worked at, the last of which, thankfully, she shares ownership, so unlikely to be moving again. And that is from a Joe. And currently celebrating her 30th year in business,

in her business, I should say, the celebrity colourist Jo Hansford, MBE, has been described as the best tinter on the planet. She's rolling her eyes at that one. She started off cutting hair in her parents' front room. She's now one of the most famous female names in the business with two salons, her own range of products and clients who've included Elizabeth Hurley, Angelina Jolie and Richard Burton.

Not to mention that she is the woman in charge of the Queen Consort's crowning glory. Jo is with me in studio. Let's talk all about this. Can you believe that? The amount of messages that are coming in, I can't keep up with. People talking about their relationship with their hairdresser amazing but you know we're in a very privileged um situation hairdressers because we we have that

confidence um and we have the confidence to do for other people to make them look glamorous to make them feel good they feel that they can can talk to us because it doesn't go anywhere. What is said in the hairdresser's chair stays in the hairdresser's chair. And I think you do build a very good relationship. I've got clients that I've been doing for 30, 40 years and they have followed me for wherever I've been. And yes, I love the business and that's why I'm still working. I don't have to work anymore, obviously, because I've got and yes I love the business and that's why I'm still working I don't have to work anymore obviously because I've got a very successful business but I love it I love working with the young ones I love working with the team we all work with each other so we get fantastic results

it's a fabulous business to be in and unfortunately years, it used to be a question of, well, if you can't do anything else, you can be a hairdresser. I don't think it happens like that today, because I think people know that if you are good, you can actually take your business with you anywhere, travel the world, have your children, still work afterwards. It's a career for life. Let's get into some of the details of this amazing career that you have had. I mentioned Queen Consort Camilla, a client for 35 years. Of course, with the coronation coming up as well. So it is really the crowning glory, shall we say, in more ways than one.

Are you able to divulge what you're planning or what your salon is planning? Well, the salon, it's our 30th anniversary this year so we have had a very big party on saturday night an amazing party um with all the staff we actually have 90 staff now between the two salons which is massive um they all get on incredibly well together so yes the the whole thing about doing anybody's hair is the same same old same old unless something wants to change and i think her color now looks amazing um we've changed the color over the years because obviously you change color according to skin color so does our does our skin i should know this at my age but does our skin color change over the years your

skin tone changes even if you're not aware so i mean obviously somebody who maybe was dark brown when they were 20 certainly shouldn't be dark brown when they're 60 because everything needs to be softened does everything need to go lighter do you always it needs to go lighter it doesn't necessarily need to go blonde you know but and needs to be a transition of being lighter softer um that's with the haircut as well as the color but the color is very important the one thing about color is and this is why i feel it is so important is that you can't take it off you can't take your hair off you can have a bad makeup you take it off you buy a frock

you don't want to wear it anymore but with your hair it's stuck on your head whether you're naked or dressed or whatever so the color needs to be right i read you're not a fan of gray is that true it's what not a fan of gray no hate gray why oh gray because you don't need to be gray anymore because we have the best products in the world now that you you can look beautiful and much younger 10 years younger if you don't need to be grey anymore because we have the best products in the world now that you can look beautiful and much younger, 10 years younger if you don't have grey hair. Unless you have the most beautiful, beautiful silver, silver white hair, which is very strong, very sharp haircut and you are a very glamorous person. But not a lot of people are. I think it's mumsy. I think people look at you in a different way. They talk to in a different way they talk to you like you're an old person

I have to throw this out to my listeners Jo you haven't got grey hair but I've got red hair and you know all the what would I say uh teasing that you get when you're younger I think the payback is when you're older that you don't go grey for a while in the sense of you don't need to colour your hair no no colour really takes on it anyway I don't go grey for a while in the sense of you don't need to colour your hair. No colour really takes on it anyway I don't think. Haven't tried yet but maybe you'll convince me. But I have to throw that out

to our listeners of the 844 on text to defend your grey hair because that is Joe's opinion on that you feel that grey is usually not the way to go unless you have a specific

type of hair. But I have to say so many people colour their hair. I know a lot of people would agree with you as well. Do you feel it's easy to speak to your clients, whether they're queen consort or another, on that it's time to change, like that darker colour isn't suiting you anymore? You're ageing and it needs to change. Yes, because I think you build confidence. It depends on your attitude of how each person is individual. Each person is treated exactly the same way,

whether you're royalty, whether you're a superstar, whether you're a housewife. And the whole thing is about caring for that person as a person, not just the hair. You look at them, you talk to them. I've been involved with people for such a long time. And as it transpires, you do the same with the hair and they have confidence in you.

Once you've built that confidence and they know that you actually do care about what you're doing, then it's easy. So, you know, you've had so many clients. I mentioned the Queen Consort, but I could say Angelina Jolie. I could say Elizabeth Hurley. I could say a kind of funny anecdote with Naomi Campbell. Oh, the funny. Oh, that was hysterical.

When we first started the business, Sam McKnight, who we used to work a lot with, phoned me up and said, oh, Jo need naomi's hair done can you can you sort something for me so i said yes of course and i thought oh so exciting meet naomi to the salon and then suddenly this rolls royce drew up outside and the chauffeur came out with a box and he gave me the box and it was a fringe it was like seriously and? And Sam said, oh, sorry, darling. I meant to say to you, can you just match the fringe to her hair colour, please? And I thought, OK, Sam.

But we did it. You did it. Yes, we did it. So your job is nothing if not varied. But when I mention all these people, people probably think you have always ran in those circles. But your story is interesting. You started in your parents' front room. No, I actually started.

But how I started was I always wanted to be a makeup artist that was my my love when I was at school I used to go to Woolworths and buy spend all my pocket money on makeup makeup anybody I could lay my hands on um and there was a television program with Rolf Harris when I was a teenager and it was called Just the Job and it was looking for people to come on board who wanted to do something different when they left school rather than be a teacher or a nurse or whatever. And my mother said, oh, come on, you need to get involved with that because you want to be a make-up artist.

And I said, no, no, I'm too shy, I can't do it. Anyway, she wrote in and they took me on the show. And the BBC trained, they don't today but they trained their own makeup artists in those days and and for a sort of a thing about going on the show they said they would take me on as an apprentice but I couldn't start until I was 18 which was very exciting so they said I had to do hairdressing so I said fine never even thought about hairdressing so I went to the career officer and she said right we've got two jobs one in Ealing one in Mayfair my mother said Ealing

because that's near where we lived so I obviously said Mayfair had no clue where Mayfair was not clue anyway got to Mayfair next to Claridge's this very posh salon and it's like oh so exciting and yes my mother couldn't afford the fare for me to come into town every day so she let me have her front room to experiment and all my friends and family whatever once I'd started work um and I thought oh god I don't think I can stand this bouffant hair rollers sweeping the floor very boring until somebody sent me into the back room and when I got into the back room it was a color room and it was like oh my god this is fabulous so I start with color on the hair instead of color on the face yeah so it was really that was I was so lucky

this salon had the most amazing colorist um he had me in tears every day. He was a gay guy. He had me in tears every single day, but he was a genius. And I learned so much from him. And from there, I went to Vidal Sassoon, which was the highlight of my life, apart from having my own business. It was just amazing. And that's where I built all my celebrity clients, like the Richard Burtons and the David Hemmings, and worked for producers that used to whisk me off in cars and take me off to sets and name your price and fabulous time, absolutely amazing time.

What a life. Let's read a few that are coming in which are so much the sell-off. Great as well, no surprise there. Let me see. My hairdresser Tracy is retiring next week. I'm devastated. 20 years of sharing every aspect of our lives.

We've gone through styles and colours and she nurtured me and my hair. Once I decided to go grey, I'm always complimented on my hair. I've been going to the same barber, says Rob, since 1968. Oh, fabulous. By 55 years.

Oh, I see that's loyalty for you. Yeah, here's Hi Woman's Hour. My hair query is that I'm just 60, naturally a brunette, but I've coloured my hair for decades. I'm transitioning's Hour. My hair query is that I'm just 60, naturally a brunette, but I've coloured my hair for decades. I'm transitioning to grey. Is it too early to use those purple shampoos on the market or shampoo conditioning regime?

What shampoo conditioning regime should I be looking at? I think the Queen Consort's hair is looking particularly glorious at the moment. No wonder she stayed with her hairdresser for decades and not Sarah. What do you think? I think you'll probably tell Sarah, don't go grey.

No, don't go grey. Don't go grey. Go lighter. Go lighter, softer. Even go into low lights. You know, you can have low lights through grey hair, which just breaks you up. What are low lights? Low lights, instead of highlights, coloured lights that go into grey hair so that you end up like a tortoiseshell effect.

So it's sort of a blend. So it's softer, but it's not actually grey. And it's low maintenance. Because a lot of people don't want the maintenance of roots when they get older. So low lights is a low maintenance situation. How much has the techniques changed over the years? Massively.

Absolutely massively. And balayage, which is like is like well was the new thing that was the thing where you kind of had a block of different color kind of at the end yeah yes um that's only retro that that's not a new one it's a retro okay when we first started coloring hair there was no foils to put highlights in so everything was padded out with cotton wool and you just painted the colour on the ends. And that's what ballet art is. So it's basically having a turnaround

with a little bit of technique. I have to say, there's always such interest in your life, Jo, and people are getting in lots. Let me see, shall we do a silver one? Silver hair looks fab. I'm shouting at the radio. Yes! That's what we want patting crannily at this hour in the morning. Everybody has their own opinion

and everybody's entitled to their own opinion. But obviously I'm a colourist so what am I going to say? Yes, everybody go grey. No. It's a business. Exactly. That's why you are where you are. That's patting crannily. She says I love my hair. Ex-redhead with pure Celtic silver shirt hair. Silver short hair, I think.

So maybe I will go grey eventually. Will I come to you, Jo Hansford? If I could get an appointment. One more just for the Queen Consort as well. Do you get to chat with her about you've kids the same age? Is it like any other client?

Very chatty, confidant? We both have a love of gardening, big time gardening. She loves her garden and doesn't see it often enough, unfortunately. I love gardening as well. And yes, our children are about the same age. So we talk about grandchildren and the holidays and what they're doing. And, you know, her son's a very successful um chef tom um and it's a mother interest as well as a client interest and yes we talk about normal things like any other client basically so um i don't delve

into the secret things no of course not That's why people come back to you. Yes, yes. That you can... You have to be very discreet in our business. Yes, I'm sure, particularly some of the people that you have. But what can we expect during the coronation for her hair? I think she'll look gorgeous. I mean, you know, I think she's nervous like any other person would be nervous.

But I'm sure her hair will look the same as it always looks and it does look good now yes in photos it looks so much better the color because it's softer and it's it's warmer um i think the difficulty will be putting the crown on without changing the style oh yeah and how that happens i don't know because I won't be there I'll be watching it on the telly Like so many or maybe listening on the radio

Yeah Jo Hansford thank you so much for coming in so lovely to hear all your stories and I have to say definitely people

are chatting back to you on 84844 our text number if people want to get in touch with Woman's Hour so lovely to have you in with beautiful hair I should say for people who are asking as well.

Thank you. Blonde. Yes, blonde. I'm always going to be a blonde. I'll never, ever not be a blonde. If I'm stuck on a desert island, it will be a toothbrush and a tintbrush forever. The first lady of colour, as she has been called, Jo Hansford. Let me see some of your messages that are coming in. I'm 57. I love my graying hair. Why would I want to look younger? I love myself and how I look. Is the need to dye your hair associated with low self-esteem?

Your worth is who you are, not the color of your hair. Instead, if we go to the relationship, my hairdresser of 12 years has become one of my dearest friends. Sadly, lovely Mandy is no longer hairdressing, but I now see her for meals and coffee instead, so says Alex. And on breaking up with your hairdresser, mine of 20 years

decided to turn part of the salon into a nail bar with no ventilation. Don't know about you, but I don't want to smell nail varnish while I'm having my hair done. So now I have a better salon. So win for me. Everybody has a story.

Thanks so much for sharing yours with us here on Women's Hour. Now, let me move on to the Labour MP for Liverpool, Anne Waverley, Paula Barker, who is to launch a national minimum wage bill next month, which aims to close a loophole

that leads to many care workers pay dipping below the legal minimum. The bill would require care firms to demonstrate that they fully comply with existing legislation which states that travel time and waiting time for the purposes of the job should count as work. The adult social care workforce is made up of 80% women and the hourly rate for workers over the age of 23 is £10.42. Paula Barker, welcome to Woman's Hour. Morning, Emma.

And it's Nuala that's here this morning. I get the joy of being in. Oh, sorry, Nuala, sorry. Listen, if you want to call me Emma, I'll take that as a total compliment. So you can totally call me that if you want. But let me begin with this loophole. Talk us through the travel time and the waiting time.

Yes, so this bill is a small but significant change that will make a real difference to thousands of care workers which are currently being denied their entitlement under the law. So clause one of my bill is a catch-all really in respect of record keeping right across the board. It also looks at sectors such as the childcare sector. And clause two is the provisions with local government who are the main commissioners of adult social care services. So what is the situation at the moment for care workers? And do you think that you can really change that? What difference will it make to them on an hourly basis? Well, what we see is 165,000 vacancies in the social care sector. We have a recruitment and retention crisis.

And we have a government who keeps telling us that they're going to resolve the social care crisis. We had Boris Johnson, who was going to resolve the crisis in his first 100 days in office. And here we are, two prime ministers later, and the social care sector is still in crisis. What this will do is this will recognise those care workers for the valuable and professional work they do. Is it enough? In my view, no, it isn't. But it goes some way to trying to address the huge inequalities that's happening in this sector. But is it that the legislation is there

and that you're going to try and enforce it? Absolutely. So in 2019, the Director of Labour Markets Enforcement actually published a strategy with recommendations around enforcement. Sadly, the government only accepted the six-year recommendation around record keeping. So this is very much a provision around the enforcement of existing legislation. So how will you do that? So basically what it does is it makes a provision for private sector companies to have open transparent records in terms of how they record things on wage slips for example and also puts an onus on them to send returns to commissioning organisations such as local authorities to ensure that the travel time

is being paid. I would imagine just at first blush on that that the that's more bureaucracy that will require more resources so which the care firms will require more money to make that happen. Well, I just don't accept that. A lot of the care firms are making huge profits and they're not passing that on to the care workers who are providing services to the most vulnerable people in our communities. This bill does not require a money resolution. All it requires is that existing legislation is complied with. And quite frankly, if private care firms can't comply with law,

then I'm sorry, but they shouldn't have contracts. But do you really see that happening? Well, the bill will be on the floor of the House on the 2nd of May. I sincerely hope that the government benches do not oppose. I'm really pleased to say that we have cross-party support, so there's co-sponsors from all parties in the House. And then if it's not opposed on the 2nd of May, it will be back on the floor of the House on the 24th of November. I mean, what the government would say is they've introduced a 9.7% increase

in the national living wage. They say it's the largest ever cash increase since 2016. I mean, do you not see that as going towards, you know, resolving part of the issue? Well, of course, anything that gives workers more money in their back pockets is welcome. But when the law is not enforced, so companies are breaking the law, and that's what this comes down to. Companies are breaking the law, then quite frankly, the government are not doing enough. So that is,

you're really focusing on the companies there. I'd be curious what your thoughts are on the Liberal Democrats. They have a proposal, this is for care workers and minimum wage, saying that then the hourly pay

would be £12.42. So £12.42 pence instead of what we're talking about at £10.42. So £2 more per hour, which I'd be curious your thoughts on that proposal. Perhaps that is more meaningful to a care worker? Well, I think in terms of Labour's offer,

obviously Angela Rayner, who is the deputy leader of the party, I think most of your listeners will know she has worked in the Agile Care Service herself. She's endorsed these plans and she will be looking at the issue of travel time and wasting time as part of Labour's future work programme. And alongside that, Rachel Reeves is also drawing up plans to put money in the pockets of our lowest paid workers by instructing the Low Pay Commission to factor things in like the cost of living when setting the national minimum wage legislation so i think at this moment in time you know our our policy is is clear or our proposals are clear we want to see workers have more money in their pockets and we're going to do everything we possibly can to ensure that happens with a labour government but would it reach to 1242

would be my question per hour. Well, it would mean a genuine real living wage for every worker in Britain. Yes, and of course that can be calculated in different ways so it may not get to the 1242.

But let me turn to the Association of Directors and Adult Social Services which commissions care services. It's launching its own reform plan urging pay parities. This is interesting, between care workers and the NHS, a more universal system of care and a right to paid carer's leave. So a care worker in England is paid on average £8,000 a year less than NHS staff

with the same skills that is, according to research that was December last year. Would your bill cover that? Would you be looking for parity between NHS staff and care workers? The bill itself doesn't cover that, but I think those proposals are incredibly exciting. I think that the actual social care sector has been the Cinderella service for far too long. And I think one of the issues is that they're just classed as low paid and low skilled workers. And that is simply not true. They are highly skilled. Yes, they are low paid, but that needs to be addressed. So I think anything that recognises these incredible workers for the professionalism and the dignity that they carry out their work and can increase their pay, I would welcome that. So you would be on board with that reform plan that has been urged?

I think it certainly sounds extremely exciting and I'd like to look at the details further. But I think it's a very exciting proposal. And Cinderella service, it's an interesting term. But let me turn to other headlines, if you don't mind, Paula, as well. Of course. This week, your colleague Diane Abbott, of course you will know, has been suspended from the Labour Party following a letter she wrote, which the leader of your party has deemed anti-Semitic. How would you respond so far to what has happened? Labour Party following a letter she wrote, which the leader of your party has deemed anti-Semitic.

How would you respond so far to what has happened? I think it's really sad. I think, you know, it's clear that Diane is a trailblazer as Britain's first black MP. But we can't ignore what has happened. The letter that was in the Observer is completely unacceptable and inexcusable. We can't downplay any form of racism. And, you know, the party has dealt with that. But yeah, dealt at this point. But do you think she should be removed from the party? Well, at the end of the day, that's not my decision. I don't get involved in... You can have an opinion though. Well, it's not for me to comment on disciplinary matters. I think that, you know, suspension is a neutral act. And I think that there are people within the organisation and the NEC as our sovereign body who will make those decisions. It's not appropriate for me to comment.

So you won't take an opinion on whether she should be removed from the party? No, but I don't think what she did was acceptable. Also, I noticed yesterday, Keir Starmer and also the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper, they met with actor Emily Atack and the Love Island star Georgia Harrison. It was a roundtable on violence against women. I've had the pleasure of both of those women

as my guests on Woman's Hour. But, you know, the headline yesterday was that boys were to be educated to curb violence against women. How do you know? I think my understanding is that it goes to education in schools. As somebody who really, you know, I'm passionate about violence against women and girls.

And I think that a societal change is required to ensure that men and young boys do treat women with dignity and respect. But wouldn't they have, I mean, already in which we often talk about a woman's error as well, sex and relationship education, you know, there is discussions about fostering healthy relationships and everything about consent all those things I mean what else can be introduced or is there any thinking on what's missing or lacking or what might form it might take? I think that part of the the concept of having this round table yesterday was to listen to experts in the field of violence against women and girls and hear their thoughts so we can actually start to develop policy around that but I think the the main plank of it will be education and I accept what you're saying about you know this this education around personal relationships and

healthy relationships as a mum of two teenage boys 19 and 15 I i know that um it's really important um for healthy relationships to be sort of part of that education and the societal change that we need to see i'm horrified by the increase of social media i think it can be such a force for good at times but i think it can be a real force for bad and And I think there has been a shift in relationships and what healthy relationships are. So anything that will address those things, I welcome. And of course, violence against women and girls is on the increase. We see rape convictions decreasing all the time. So it's clearly a very, very important issue that needs to be addressed. I think with Emily and George as well, they would very much be pushing for being able to prosecute those that troll online or, you know, cyber flashing, for example.

Things like that. Very big, thorny issues as well to get into when it comes to online safety. I want to turn to another aspect, though, that Keir Starmer also brought up, spiking, and that he would make it a criminal offence. But I'm wondering how, you know, when you hear stories of spiking, it's often quite difficult to know who the perpetrators were, for example. Yeah, I mean, I think it is difficult when people are in a club and, you know, often drinks are left down and you don't know who is put there. But where there is evidence and obviously the CCTV, there's security, there's doorman, etc. So I'm sure as an ex-director of public prosecutions um care wouldn't suggest that

anybody is is prosecuted without evidence but i think where there is robust evidence then spiking should be a criminal offence and we have seen that on the increase as well uh you know the date rape drug etc what you know where that can lead so anything that resolves that issue or clamps down on that issue is to be welcomed. Paula Barker, thank you so much for speaking to us on Woman's Hour. I'm looking at you

and your hair looks really well. It's kind of a dark red. Just before I let you go, do you have a close relationship with your hairdresser? Oh, very much so. I think hairdressers are worth their weight in gold.

And I see you with your lovely red locks as well. It looks absolutely beautiful. So redheads together. I'm going to go back and you're giving me a segue back to my listeners because there's been so many people texting about hair. Paula Barker, thanks so much. Let me turn to your stories. Laura McKenzie getting in touch. I've been with my hairdresser since 1976. He's the same age as me, 69. What will I do when he retires? I turned grey white in my 30s,

totally white by 40, very thick hair. The children approved because they could always pick me out in a crowd. Oh, there's a lot about grey hair. My hairdresser told me that no one would ever look at me again if I didn't dye my greying hair. So I changed hairdresser.

Let me see. I was a hairdresser. Let me see. I was a hairdresser for more than 25 years and had many clients who stayed with me for years. I was a confidant as well as a hairdresser. I heard many a personal problem. So says Denise in Edinburgh, who has all the secrets. Let me see.

Here's another, Sarah in North Wales. This year is the 20th anniversary of my relationship with my hairdresser. She gives me consistently brilliant service and has become a good friend. In fact, she knows me better than many of my other friends, despite the fact that our relationship doesn't go beyond the salon. Only once did I go elsewhere for hairdressing. Cheating. And afterwards, I felt I had to confess to my regular hairdresser. Sarah goes on to say, I felt like I was cheating on her. I think a lot of us have done that.

Oh, my hairdresser gave me my first haircut as a baby 29 years ago. Last year, she also gave my baby his first haircut. That's from Lucy in Glasgow. Lots of people in Scotland checking in this morning. Good to have you with us wherever you are with Women's Hour. Now, I want to turn to foster care next. It's estimated that there are nearly 60,000 children in foster care in the UK. But these temporary homes can provide much needed stability for children in impossibly difficult situations.

But of course, it can be very difficult to adapt to these situations as well and we want to hear what it's like for these children. Fran Hill is with me. Her first novel Cuckoo in the Nest tells the story of teenage Jackie as she navigates her new life with her foster family and I must say that Fran is drawing on her own experiences of being in care during the 1970s. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Fran. Thank you very much. Really good to be here. What do you remember about being fostered as a teenager? Well, I was fostered in various situations, official and unofficial.

So I spent some time with some family members or I went into various foster situations and I guess what I remember most is that sense that as you've just said although it's it's a big change to go into somebody's house and it's meant to be a good thing it's still quite destabilizing because depending on what you're used to, and my experience was very sort of dramatic, dysfunctional, chaotic home life. So I was kind of glad that I was going to get some stability. But on the other hand, it's just like being in a completely different world to go into somebody else's house. So I remember feeling, well, I remember thinking,

for instance, gosh, how boring these people are. What is this all having meals at the same time every day and going to work and going to sleep at the same time? And where are the suitcases in the hall? You know, and I come home from school, nobody's leaving, nobody's arriving. That kind of thing as a child, you see it in a completely different way. Everybody else is thinking, oh, this is going to be really good for them. But you're going through some fairly big changes. And yeah, it's hard to cope with. Yes, I have to say, so your protagonist is Jackie and you talk about her, you know, going to a different family and the effect that it has. But I was very struck. It's beautifully written and just even struck by the paint on the wall, for example, when she goes to this new house that has been decorated for a room for a foster child.

And to see it through her eyes is really quite something. Did you always want to write a novel about experiences in care? I think that's grown on me over the last two or three years really I guess spearheaded by having some counselling myself maybe about 40 years too And beginning to see how abnormal my childhood had been. And I think that took a long time to realise how traumatic or how abnormal it had been. And I began to think, hmm, I wonder how many people can relate to this idea of what it's like to be a foster child because normally well not normally but often the focus is on the foster parents taking in the child and doing a lot of good for the child and all that is really true um but I began to think you know what what effect does that child have on a home how can you just move a child that you don't know into your house

and not expect there to be ripples? Or waves or tsunamis. Or waves, tsunamis. Yeah, I think I probably was a bit of a tsunami to my foster care situations. Well, let's talk about that because I mentioned Jackie and people I hear are already responding

to your teen protagonist who is funny and perceptive and witty. Is there a lot of you in Jackie? When I was writing the book, I sincerely thought she was the teenager that I wish I had been because she loves her education. And I really did not. it's not that I didn't enjoy learning it's I didn't see the point um it was a bit of a sideshow compared to what else was going on and I've taught English for 20 years and I've seen that from the other side of the desk you know the children who would kind of love to be there, but in their heads are somewhere else. So Jackie loves her education.

She loves writing poetry, as did I, but she writes much, much better poetry than I did. And she's kinder than I was. She's much, yes, I think I was a kind of harder person, one of the ones that maybe the other girls were a little bit afraid of. Whereas I think Jackie, I just wanted to make her a lot kinder and a lot nicer. But people who've read it who know me say, oh, we think that's the teenage you. Maybe it's just the teenage me that could have been. I don't know.

I don't know. But I love Jackie from when I first met her friend so for what it's worth um but you know you you are painting this picture of whether it's a a little bit of you or a lot of you uh but it gives us a view of this child this foster child and I mean I'm wondering how you think at the moment society views foster children are you trying to change that with this book I don't I honestly don't think I intended to do that I would be so pleased if it did change people's perceptions from thinking of the foster parents as kind of rescuer to maybe thinking about against the stereotypes because the stereotypes I think are often oh if you're going to have a child a foster child is bound to have problems bound to

be dysfunctional you're bound to have difficulties whereas I think Jackie is a kind of catalyst for uncovering the family's difficulties and the family's secrets. And she kind of gets in there with her observant eye and starts seeing things in their family that they haven't seen themselves. I think I'd also like to keep people's focus on how education can really make a difference to a child. Because when I went to a settled foster care situation, you know, I actually started going to school,

which helps, obviously, being in the classroom. I changed from somebody who... I mean, I remember so many of my lessons through a little square window where I was outside the classroom door looking in. I remember watching the lessons through a square. It's just such a strange vision in my head. And things really changed for me.

And although I had to catch up on education a lot later on, I did my degree when I was 40 and changed to teaching. I think education really can make a difference because I've taught children who have really struggled in situations at home, care situations or their own families and seen how hard they're working to kind of push through that. I really admire that. And I think that's why I put it in Jackie Chadwick. Yes. Well, what about Jackie? Are you back to writing already in our last minute or you just kicking back enjoying the moment and i don't know doing interviews no i've been writing

a sequel i wanted i got to the end of my novel when i finished writing it i'm thinking i don't think this is the end of jackie i think i want to pick her up again in a couple of years time and see how she's getting on so So I've been busy writing that and really enjoying it, actually. That's so great. It's a really lovely book and I think it really makes you stop and think about what foster families,

but particularly that foster child and those changing environments and how foreign, really, that it can be for somebody to go through that. So thanks for spending some time with us. Fran's novel, Cuckoo in the Nest, is out today. Congratulations.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Now, let me see. Tomorrow, parental alienation, when one parent psychologically manipulates their child to intentionally drive them away from the other parent without any justification. And we're going to hear from a listener

who tells us why she thinks her child hasn't wanted to see her for four years. So no doubt some people that will resonate with do get in touch, 84844. Morning Women's Hour.

Chris is going to have the last word. My auntie's hairdresser gave her a kidney after talking about her disease. She is still cutting her hair 15 years after the doctor said she would be dead. It is a great story. So heartwarming. Yes, it is, Chris.

Thank you so much. Anita's with you tomorrow. I'll see you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Helen Lewis, and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. next time. thousands, no, millions of devoted followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich, how to find love, how to manage our time.

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